Episode 5: Masters of Fun ( feat. McKensi Pascall)

In this episode, the girls are joined by playwright McKensi Pascall to talk about ups and downs in academia, dealing with post-grad blues, and her own work as an artist. We also learn what happens to the kids who were "advanced readers" growing up (nothing good).

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

And welcome to back to relatively well. I'm Sharice Sarunian. I'm Mary Vogue. And we're gonna have a special guest joining.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Oh, here she is. Let me admit her. Mackenzie. Mackenzie. Connecting to audio. She's in Trinidad.

SPEAKER_03 0:29

Yeah, she is. She's on Island Life. I wish I was doing that right now.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Yeah, it sounds. I mean, Island Life sounds good. Just chilling.

SPEAKER_03 0:42

My boyfriend is in the room and he was like flabbergasted that I just said I wish I would be doing that right now.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Why is that flabbergasting? Hi, Mackenzie. How are you?

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Good. Good to see you guys.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Good. We are recording and you just came on at the right time. Okay, perfect. All right. How are you doing? You're in Trinidad right now. How's that? Yeah, it's been it's been really fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

But it's also like really intense because I'm back home.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Yeah. But um, I'm like in the in my childhood bedroom. So that's like it's just like, hold out feeling.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 1:27

Oh, sorry. Are you dealing with that whole thing where you like find things from your childhood and you like go through it and you've wasted like two hours just coming through stuff?

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Yeah, no. Um let me tell my mom to stop texting me. Um yeah, I've done the thing where I've gone through, I've also been, I was born at home, so it's also like a really emotional sort of like wow, and my birthday is on the 28th. So I'm just feeling feeling all the feels and kind of shocking seeing how much hasn't changed. Like I know with my mom, like that's like for her, she's here all the time, so she doesn't like feel the effects of it. But after leaving, and I've been gone now for 13 years, so I don't know. It's it's just an intense I have a question.

SPEAKER_03 2:25

In Trinidad, do they speak patois or yeah?

SPEAKER_02 2:30

So it's it's like I would say like a Trinity Creole. There are like different patois throughout, but for the most part, like it is it's English, it's English, different than like a Haitian patois, which is really French. Gotcha, gotcha, interesting.

SPEAKER_03 2:46

Because I know in Jamaica they they speak patois.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

Um yeah, like it's like a a dialect for sure, which is like a mixture of like English and African and yeah, interesting. West Indies, yeah. Yeah, no, it's like a big mixture. Very cool. Primarily, primarily English. That's been gotcha, gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Very cool. So is it is it nighttime over there right now, or is it daytime or it's the same time. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

It's it's like right above Venezuela. Okay, so from Trinidad, and it's in the Americas, so it's in the same, it's in a different time zone because it doesn't follow daylight savings. But it's the same time here as it is there.

SPEAKER_03 3:41

Interesting.

unknown 3:42

Cool.

SPEAKER_03 3:44

I've never been, but I've always wanted to go. So if I do go, you're you're gonna get like 50 questions from me.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

My mom's a tour guide, so she knows so much. So amazing. It's like I think I took that for granted when I was younger. Just like, you know, I know this country like the back of my hand. Like I've seen so much of it because she took us everywhere. That's really cool. Like a pretty nostalgic drive today through somewhere I haven't um been in 10 years, and she was just telling me about a flood, like this coastal road. Um, that it's in Manzanela has all these coconut trees lining the road, but a lot of them in the flood were had to be taken down or rotted. So it's it's just it's just sad.

SPEAKER_03 4:37

Well, thank you for for joining us today for this. We were really excited. I know um last time I saw you, and I think the first time I met you, we were at dinner. Um and you were talking a little bit about theater, and there is some shared traumas passed around about um, so I mean, we would love to hear about you know uh where you came from in that respect, you know, how that started, where you are now, like just kind of give a little background as to you know your experience with theater and you too. We want to hear all about you on your own as well.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

So all roads do lead back to Trinidad for me. Um, like anytime I talk about my origins with theater, it's carnival, you know. Like and I feel I feel like when I was studying theater when I was getting my BFA, it was a lot of like the theater history completely left out, like the Caribbean and African history, and like they all say like the origins of theater is in Greece. And you know, it's it's fascinating because you think about how like theater can be it can be like any form of gathering that with with performance. And I feel like in Trinidad going out on the streets and seeing the costumes and seeing the storytelling from such a young age, and knowing that with the history of carnival, it was specifically the French that came over and were doing their their carnival ball rituals, which is super exclusive to the enslaved people. And so our origins of carnival started with the enslaved people that were mimicking the balls that the French were having, and so the mimicry turned into this like huge festival, especially after emancipation, and it's still being done to this day, like starting off with the Camboule riots, it's like it's a complete ritual, and there was just no barrier to entry, which is gonna come back. I feel like that's sort of my my thing, like making sure things are accessible and that like the barrier is eliminated. Because I feel like for carnival, I could just go out on the streets and witness performance and be a part of the performance, and there just was not this um the elitism of like I mean, there there is in everything some elite elitism, but in terms of like buying an expensive ticket and like sitting at a proscenium stage and it being closed off from the public, like the origins of theater for me is always about the people, the community coming together. And I feel like I've followed that throughout my whole life, like starting off with acting. I feel like acting for me was always about empathy, like beyond the empathy of a character, beyond the empathy of the playwright, but also with the audience, like it is this communal experience and acting on laugh at for me. But you know, also being a black actress, I feel like there just was not yeah, the work I was doing in the BF3 program just was not it. And so I started writing a lot during the pandemic, thinking about like how can I include us? Like, how can I not be exclusive in in the writing? Which led me to Leslie, which is how like Sharice and I met, which is super cool.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

I can't believe it was four years ago, like this month. I can't believe it.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

I still remember that day like it was yesterday.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Like you were the first person I met. It's just like we have to work out like that.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

Like what you were saying though, and I just want to piggyback, I hate to use like the corporate jargon of piggybacking, let's like a zoom meeting, let's piggyback on that, let's circle back. But it's um when you said talk about elitism and art being accessible, sometimes only to those who can pay exorbitant amount of money to see it. That's some like paying a lot of money to sit at a theater when it was really about the people and it's you know, bringing people together from all walks of life, which is what it should be, but sadly sometimes it's not that anymore. And I was thinking about it with art being put behind a paywall in a lot of cases, and how sometimes the people who really need it, some of the more disadvantaged people who can really benefit from it, unfortunately don't always get to access it. Like I experienced this with um, there's this one newspaper that published a lot of my short stories years ago, and I love them. I think there's, you know, a smaller newspaper, they're read around the world. I think everyone should support them. It's great. I understand they need to make money, but they put a lot of the stories behind a paywall now. And it's like, okay, but what about people who can't afford to read the stories, but who like to read them and who need to read them? So it kind of frustrates me a little bit. It's just such a weird conflict as an artist. Like, you understand the need to make a living yourself. You understand the need for these platforms to make money, but like you just want people, those of us who are really in it for the greater good know that's not about the money so much. You just want it to reach the right people. So it can be, I just really liked what you said there.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Yeah, I appreciate you saying that.

SPEAKER_03 10:15

Mackenzie, the one thing I I wanted to talk to you about and I noticed when I was living in New York, and kind of I was finding myself in these sort of indie theater circles. Um, I spent a lot of time at like Brooklyn, I don't know if you know the Brooklyn Center for Theater Research. Um, but basically the founder Matthew Gazda, he created or kind of brought back, I think it was a thing, and he sort of revived it again, like these living room style plays, um, in order to make it more accessible to the public. Do you think that that's where theater is heading? And Sharice, like, chime in too, because this is your avenue. Um, do you think that we're gonna see more of like these smaller, more intimate spaces, and that's where shows are gonna be?

SPEAKER_02 11:11

Or yeah, you know, it's hard for me to to predict. I find myself sometimes really lost in the landscape, and I think in terms of the like the big boom of remakes and commercial theater, like I like I do think that's gonna run its course at some point. And in terms of like the living room like more intimate plays, I think those really are gonna have their moment because so many people are writing and at this point like people are gonna just like we're gonna break down because you know, theater can be so expensive to make. But I think the more people that are like, let's just get this thing made, and that's what I've that's what's happening right now, you know, like people are just saying I'm not gonna wait for I'm not gonna wait for like this person to like hand me the thing, I'm just gonna do it myself.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

Right. Right. It's a little less um rigid and maybe more approachable, and that's kind of something that some people, not all, but some people I would count myself as part of that group that wants something that feels a little more intimate and approachable. Um, I sort of like being up close and personal. It's also why I like improv, um, is because you are kind of in this space where things are right in front of you and you can sort of engage a little deeper. Um, I do like Broadway as well, but I I prefer those more intimate uh settings.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Yeah, I just saw obsession last night.

SPEAKER_03 12:58

I did too. Oh my gosh. I was too I thought about oh really literally last, yeah. My boyfriend and I went to see it last night. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Gosh, it's so funny. We're both like we're both in the theater in different different countries.

SPEAKER_03 13:13

I know.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

I brought it because I was sort of like, you know, there's gonna be like in terms of the thing that's like made on a small scale that then explodes, and then like everyone then like wants a part of that thing, like once it's exploded. I think what really gets me is when people just try to like replicate it, like they're like, let's just replicate this style, which which always happens, like even with those intimate plays, like I feel like there's always gonna be some sort of like commercial replicating as people try to like be vultures and take from what whatever is working because they see that it's working, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:58

No, I I think uh that aspect of it is maybe not going anywhere. Um it's probably a little easier to sort of look at, you know, um, I mean this isn't a great example, but like Hamilton and these more commercial productions as a bit of a North Star for your inspiration. It's a dumb way of saying it. I don't know why I just said that. I've never said that in my life. Um, but like as a sort of foundation for what you want your play to be, yeah. Um how did you like obsession? Did you enjoy it or yeah?

SPEAKER_02 14:37

I feel like I was um like I feel like I was hooked throughout watching it, like I was engaged, which is always a great thing. Yeah, and it's like when I'm leaving that I'm just sort of like, oh, like there's definitely like the frustrations, like personally for me, there's only so long I can watch like a uh a white man like keep doing the same thing, essentially making the same choices, which was true with it. I was just sort of like you keep choosing the same path, and like that that in a character sometimes can just really drive me, drive me insane because then I just like stop rooting, like I'm not rooting for you. I don't you know, like when he died at the end, I was like, great.

SPEAKER_03 15:27

I was rooting for her. I was thinking, shit, like if you're trapped in a I don't know, a willow branch or wherever she was, and you can't get out. I mean, it's just she was so tortured in that entire thing, and there's some horror movies get this right, um, and some don't, which is kind of that uh dread, that sense of dread that you feel for a character when they're struggling or you know, they're trapped in something. Um they I think got it right in that movie. I could feel uh her pain and kind of how she, you know, she didn't know where she was. She was probably and no one even alluded to where she was. I think she was probably just in some middle world. Um, but you could kind of feel her dread, and that made it scary for me. Her faces were also pretty scary. I didn't like her faces at all. Um you know, it was a little more gory than I thought it was gonna be. Um, but you know, sorry, let me not cut you up.

SPEAKER_02 16:48

No, not at all.

SPEAKER_03 16:49

No, go, go.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

I have a real issue sometimes with movies that are written and directed by white men. Like I I feel like I can always tell. No, it's valid. That's valid. I find the fact that like the friend, whatever that character was, the way he was just like shot, and it's like okay, but like the way she was like her head was banged into that steering wheel. Like, I find these to give these women like some of the most disturbing, gory depths. And then when it's time for the man to die, like it's just not even matching like the level of intensity, it's not it's not matching the the level of trauma that's like being inflicted on the women.

SPEAKER_03 17:29

Yeah, no, that's super that's a good observation in that movie where you know the woman had these really um bloody, just brutal, gruesome deaths, and then he was just popping pills at the end of the movie. Sorry, spoilers, spoilers. Oh yeah, I was just like, we'll have to put in spoilers to see.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

I was just gonna say that, but like, yeah, we don't you wanna give away spoilers. I mean, I don't personally, I haven't seen the movie, and it's like whatever. I don't, I don't mind. I'm the kind of person who doesn't mind spoilers, actually. Like, if something gory or sad is gonna happen, I'd like to know so I can be prepared. Like when I was a kid, if something like I was reading a book, and like if something sad was gonna happen, I'd just like turn to the end of the book and be like, oh, the character dies. Okay. Makes me feel better about it. I had an English teacher in high school who really hated it when people spoiled stuff. And one time this girl, we were reading a farewell to arms, and she didn't even spoil the ending. She just turned to the end, she goes, No, that's so sad. And he got livid and he flipped over a desk. No, I hate it when people spoil books. Don't ever spoil books again.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

It was like, dude, chill, but some people really take that seriously. But oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 18:44

Yeah, there is a kid in my seventh grade class we were about to read. Um, is of mice and men, the one where Lenny gets shot. Yeah, yeah. And he just skipped right to the last part of the book and and said, He gets shot. And the teacher was so mad.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 19:08

Oh mad. I think he ended up going like to the principal's office because she was like, That's just not okay. Like, because I have lessons planned throughout this book, and like when the movie has these little arcs and stuff like that, he just he blew it. Oh gosh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

So that's but that's all really good points. And since this podcast is a lot of times, so for people who are new, we'd like to talk about the intersection of art and maybe mental wellness, physical wellness, disability, uh, systemic injustices, all that. So I was wondering, um, Mackenzie, why don't you, if you want to talk a little bit more about the kind of work you do and the kind of themes that it explores? And I there's one play that I remember from grad school, the one that you did your play lab for. If you want to talk about that, you can totally talk if you want to, it's totally up to you.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

Oh my gosh. Yeah, you know, I uh I found, especially as I'm reading back my work, that there is a lot of themes of the undercurrents of society. Like I really wanna like like I think about it as truly working in the undertoes, the undercurrents. Like I love thinking about archaeology and the digging, like literally finding the bones and then putting together pieces from it. Um as opposed to like architecture, which is what I feel like a lot of you know, like recall playwrights and that there's a lot of building and world building that happens. But I found like for myself, like there's a lot of breaking down, like there's a lot of like demolishing and questioning what's underneath those buildings and those structures. And that's that's been like a fascinating exploration. Like a lot of things have been heavily researched and and historical, and then other things have been like the undertoes of my personal life, and how have these systemic issues weaved its way into my my life as I've inherited this society as I've inherited my bloodline and I'm putting together the pieces of my context in this world. And you know, it's I think my dad sometimes is like, why don't you write some lighter, funnier stuff? I think my stuff can be funny, but it is dark, dark in nature, and I think that's okay because in the darkness, like I am finding I am finding light and I'm hoping to shine a light on all of those like really deep truths that are covered up, like covered with dirt, covered up with like lies and buildings and whatnot.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

And that's super important too to you. And I mean, the way you I mean when when you talk about dark subjects, it's necessary to balance them with humor. It's like the old saying is take comedy seriously and drama as a joke. I may be mangling that, but it's something and it's it's crazy. The majority of people understand it, but once in a while you'll get one idiot who says something like I can't believe you used humor to talk about this serious thing. It happened to me with my film. If you go on the YouTube comments, by the way, nothing solid is now made public for the public and the views have skyrocketed past like a thousand 1.2k views. But one of the comments someone said like oh you know I suffer from the same condition and it's so childish. The humor is so far-fetched this is barely accurate. And I had to respond to them saying hey um first of all you know conditions like the star spectrum some people have you know a more severe version some people have a less severe version so you can't really gaslight and say it's inaccurate and also people have used humor for centuries to deal with the most dark scary difficult topics so I don't know why everyone's you know why at least this person is acting like it's some great sacrilege and you got to show that life is not all doom and gloom even with these things. I had this happen with my play, you know, with with Glasschild which for those who don't know Mackenzie knows this play it's um a play basically about a teenage girl gets into college she's got to choose between staying close to home and going out of state while her mom um needs her help to help care for her disabled brother. And a lot of that was based off my real life with my brother and um some somebody said something like oh you know I I don't think we understood the seriousness of this because you know he actually said this. He said people with autism and bipolar are scary and you need to get away from them and it's I'm like dude first of all that is so not what we'd say in 2026. Like this guy was like 75 so I guess it's a generational thing but it's also like you know there was humor and lightness in that play as well and the heartwarming mother-daughter relationship despite being faced with a difficult decision because life when you have you know disabilities involved it's not always tragedy it's not always doom and gloom and I needed to show that so it's just you the stupidity of some people is just insane when it comes to that.

SPEAKER_03 24:50

Even Edgar Allan Poe is kind of humorous like dark but humorous nonetheless you know I mean yeah I don't I think listen we all cope with our uh struggles and um issues in our own way and and especially when you're creating art around those you know I I think that is a reflection of how you process what you've been through.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

Absolutely and McKenzie I was thinking about what I was going to talk about coming here today and I was thinking about the grad school experience. I'm reflecting from two years being out of it and you graduated like a semester after me I believe and um you know and I think I wonder if the people listening if they're in this field themselves and they're maybe considering going to such a program I mean I was wondering I think I already know the answer to how you felt during your experience but if if you want to talk about that you certainly can I mean did you feel like if you had the chance to do it all over again or if you could choose to go or not to go like would you would you still make that choice like how was your experience yeah you know I I do it again I'm not happy about the debt that I'm in but you know I I've sort of sort of just been like uh we'll see we'll see how that that plays out but yeah I think when you're studying in the in the midst of a system that's crumbling it's obviously gonna and it's gonna have an impact on the experience and it definitely impacted mine though.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

I was one of the the luckier ones but you know we're talking about writing and yeah there was still some sort of censorship like I didn't I didn't fully feel safe. Um yeah like you know there's it was also a time where students were being persecuted for political opinions like that a lot of that like did carry weight throughout my time in grad school and that's unfortunate but I like I'm a much more skilled writer. Like I feel like I'm so grateful for my mentors and also acknowledging that in the system that Leslie particularly had where you're set up with one mentor like you really like a lot is writing on that relationship with one person. And so that could be either really helpful or it could be if you're not vibing with them that could be rough. You know if they're not if they're not getting your work or understanding your work fundamentally you're in a power dynamic where this is your professor and so you wanna like you're gonna trust that they have more expertise but sometimes expertise does not translate if they don't understand the work that you're doing. Like they're just gonna mistake your voice for Yeah. And so yeah in terms of like having integrity while also taking feedback and criticism with like with a grain of salt was was sort of the key to grad school for me. Like uh knowing what you're gonna take and what you're gonna leave and discerning it. Which was easier to do post undergrad but it's still like you know I I don't think anyone should go through school blindly and without questions not without even questioning like their mentors.

SPEAKER_03 28:45

Like I unfortunately did have like multiple times where I was like I don't know if I'm getting as much out of this as I as I could be and that's a valid that's still a valid place to be I have a question for both of you so I didn't really have a mentor going through college and I wish I did because I think I might have fared the waters a little better. Um but do you think in both of your experiences it helped you do you think it's essential for people in the arts to have a mentor what are your thoughts around that yeah I think I think personally mentors can be really helpful.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

I think it's good to have to have someone but no that it's really not the the end all be all of everything. I think sometimes like people can put too much pressure on mentors. Because in a way sometimes our relationship can seem a little one sided. Like I know sometimes I feel like oh I'm I'm constantly reaching out to you and you're constantly giving me this thing and so sometimes it puts me in a position of like am I am I helping you like it's sometimes it doesn't feel mutually beneficial. And I think that can like lead to some some sort of toxicity like there are natural mentors like if someone doesn't want to be your like a mentor has to want to be your mentor like you have to click there has to be symmetry chemistry like that needs to exist in that relationship I think a lot of people try to force mentors also mentors like you know if someone is doing their job and they're like okay I'm your mentor for this period of time like they're not at obligated to be your mentor for life and some people gain mentors for life just through that like natural relationship and some people don't and I think like a lot of mentor relationships just look different. But you can't put too much on a mentor because that's unhealthy.

SPEAKER_03 30:55

Yeah there's an interesting I mean I've observed it in friends of mine there's an interesting kind of give and take dynamic to a mentor and a mentee um that if I was a mentor I would probably cross a boundary at some point in terms of I just get very um interested in people's personal lives uh so I I would have a hard time with that I would have a hard time not getting like emotionally attached to what someone is doing and how it's affecting their life you know and there does need to be a bit of a separation there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

Yeah because that emotional attachment it like especially when it comes to art like that is gonna naturally exist. Like people are gonna be naturally um affected by the work you do especially if it's like if it's followed throughout time. So I don't know it's it's a delicate it's a delicate balance especially if like you know you're a mentor you have maybe you were assigned two people as mentees and like one of you and the mentees you you click with one of them and that relationship goes on for much longer in an actual way versus like someone else who it was just sort of like okay like I was your mentor for this and then we're no longer we're no longer in that dynamic. But like you could see how those two people especially the one who then like goes on to watch the the relationship that the mentor they had go on with someone else and feel personally like was it me? Was it my work? Like why didn't I get what that person got and I think it does breed um insecurities and and whatnot.

SPEAKER_03 32:39

Yeah I think the other thing too I can imagine if you you're a mentee and you get very close to your mentor you work very closely together and you see that mentor go off and then be a mentor to someone else that I'm sure is hard um because you have developed that relationship with that person. And to see them go on and mentor someone else would be like oh well they don't have time for me anymore.

SPEAKER_02 33:07

You know they yeah that that dynamic I could see being a challenge but yeah I think like managing like the the codependency of it all like how much are you depending on a mentor like being really intentional about what you want out of the mentorship and that that intentionality has to also be with the mentor like you have to constantly be constantly be in conversation yeah exactly exactly did you have thoughts on it Cherise yeah I mean I had pretty good relationships sorry I turned because I needed to um my phone to my my my phone my my my laptop to reach the charger I had pretty good relationships with just about all my mentors I mean the issues that I had when I was in grad school had to do with personal stuff.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

It wasn't really you know having to do with the program itself. I mean there were some social issues there. We talked about it on a previous episode I had a I had a special message for one of the for one of my former classmates that we um you can people can go back and listen to that or watch that clip if they want to see that. But um yeah I mean the only issue I would say creatively was that there were times where sometimes I felt like I was doing something more to just appease the mentor rather than what I felt was right for my work like okay you're telling me to do it this way I know it's not what I want to do I know it's not right for the work like based on what my instincts are so I'm just gonna do it because you told me to do it and I know the minute I'm gonna leave school I'm gonna change it. And some of the feedback was very valuable. I had a mentor who basically took the Glasschild play and it became what it was because of him because of the pointers he gave me but the funny thing is I had two different mentors read that play. One was a so when you go through a program for your last semester you get one faculty mentor who like guides you through writing the work and you get a thesis reader a thesis advisor who once you put all your work together they like look over the whole thing. And I wrote the play one way originally I went to my mentor she said no change and do it this way. So I did that and then I showed the thesis reader and he was like why'd you do this? And I was like because she told me to he's like oh no no do it this way I was like oh the way you're telling me is the way I originally had it so I basically ended up reverting it and um it was a much better play for it. Um but I I think also it's funny because there were some times where I would write things based on life and this is why I think it took me such a a while to write autobiographical material is because I I don't think gaslighting is the right word per se but I would have some people accuse me of sensationalizing stuff. Like I wrote this one screenplay um and there was an an incident something that it's something that happened to me my childhood something that was a little violent and traumatic and I wrote about it and um the mentor was like um are you sh like do you really want to go to violence to illustrate this point? I'm like well this is what happened. So it almost made me so things like that almost made me feel a little more inhibited about writing about real stuff that happened because then people just would accuse me of being gratuitous and so I didn't do it for a while but then I was like nah fuck that I mean truth is stranger than fiction there's a reason why people say that. So there's that and um but no there's a lot I I took with me from grad school that I appreciated like this one seminar we took on minimalism that really taught me how to write more cleanly and trim some of the fat and it kind of informs the way I write now. Like yeah I do have sometimes characters saying a little bit of nonsense but there's way less of that now than there used to be. And there are times where I didn't always agree with my mentors you know like I know one who you know I understand when they tell you you know you want to keep dramatic action going in your dialogue. You don't want to focus on expository dialogue with characters talking about themselves so much. I get it. I do less of that now but honestly I'm of the mind where I don't think every single line has to serve the plot. I don't think every single minute has to be getting the characters from A to B. I actually think some exposition is good. I think it's good when characters just muse about something that may seem like it's nonsensical or like it's filler talk, but it's never like I wouldn't have written it if I felt it was filler. I think even a character having a conversation about something that seems irrelevant tells us a lot about who they are and what they fear and what they desires are. So I think there is room for that. So I think that's one thing I wish they had more tolerance for in a grad program.

SPEAKER_02 38:18

But that that's just me personally Yeah I also wish I think one thing I wish they had is um pretty early on a feedb a class on feedback or of course some sort of seminar on giving feedback I think a lot of people it's the thing that comes up for me the most as a writer like I found myself having to give so much feedback and it's just it's really sensitive and it's it's super subjective and I think a lot of people in grad school like it could be like really detrimental to to personal work when you're being super vulnerable and people are meaning it um without I don't want to say without respect but they're like fishing for to be constructive and like it can just come across as as offensive at times but yeah I think and I've even dealt with that with clients um you know they don't they don't really have much to say about something you've done so they try to fish for something wrong.

SPEAKER_03 39:29

And I can imagine when you're working on your own art and someone comes along and says you know doesn't really have reasoning for it but tells you you've done XYZ wrong or it doesn't sound right that's frustrating. You know I know I'm personally frustrated when someone tells me something's wrong but doesn't tell me why um or give examples as to what could be better.

SPEAKER_02 39:57

So that's yeah that that's very frustrating yeah I found sometimes like even with outside of grad school like I really hate um when things are suggested without consent.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

Like I really appreciate when people are like hey like are you in a space so you can hear this yeah it takes a lot of awareness on what you're uh on what you're saying and where you're coming from especially when the work is so uh personal it's so vulnerable especially if you know I mean take uh nothing solid for example right that's a very vulnerable and uh you know uh it navigates such a personal issue that I can imagine if someone came along and and said anything about that that would be difficult and no one has because it's great but but I'm just I'm using that as an example that you know it's it's funny and McKenzie will be yeah thank you well it it's funny because and McKenzie will remember this there was an earlier version of it that was not supposed to be that personal but it was kind of a similar and you know people were like kind of some people are kind of trashing it they're like I don't understand the point of this like why is the character so unlikable why and then the pr and like I don't understand what the stakes are here and then the professor stopped them was like I understand exactly what the stakes are this is someone who's feeling unheard someone who's feeling unsafe like you guys should get it and I was like thank you and that's I know what I what um when Mackenzie's talking about how feedback can sometimes be um said in a not so nice way I I know what she's probably thinking of there's this incident one day in grad school where I was in a really bad place with my illness and I was very sick that whole week and I couldn't go home. I had to stay at school it was just I was not in a place to be messed with in any way. And I brought this 10 minute play in and a bunch of people were just trashing it because they didn't understand it. And I just started crying not because of the feedback I can take bad feedback but because of what I'd been through that week and you know because I wasn't feeling well and this just didn't help. So I kind of lost it and it was a whole became a whole thing and the faculty had to have a meeting about it. It was you know but it um and I have to and I had to keep reminding people when they're like you overreacted I'm like do it had nothing to do with you. I mean I was just puking constantly that whole week it was really rough it had nothing to do with you but it was just um it was tough and um yeah I I don't know and I got I felt bad about it because I was like great now I have a reputation for being difficult because of that incident even though it had nothing to do and but this is a thing and I should have been more open earlier and this is one of the things that led to me making the work that I do um is it and to anyone who's watching if you're in school if you're at work and you're struggling with something personal please reach out for help your faculty members are there for you they care about you you have rights you can go to a disability office you can tell them what's going on and they by law they will they should be doing what's in their power to help you I know if I had been more honest sooner it could have saved me a lot of trouble. And you know more people people I think by default are compassionate you know and caring and they they do want to people want to help yeah people want to help I mean I know uh a friend of mine was in grad school uh actually she was going for a PhD and she was like really struggling with her health very sick kind of in and out of the hospital

SPEAKER_03 44:00

Um and she had I don't know if she had a mentor, it was just an instructor. Um, but they had pulled her aside and they they said, You're not, you're not yourself, I can tell. You're not doing well. And um they ended up taking her themselves to the uh, I guess they they did, it was Columbia, so I guess they did have a psychiatrist or um something on staff and ended up taking her there and kind of, you know, checked in with her periodically to make sure, you know, that was progressing in a positive direction. And she said that was the whole reason why she probably got her PhD was because someone was looking out for her at a really hard time when she needed it and it helped carry her through. Um, and I think in higher ed, you know, it's it's harder for some reason. I don't know if it's, you know, you're you're further along and and you feel like you have to be this strong person, put on a brave face. You know, and I don't know exactly what it is, but um, I I do think for whatever reason it's harder to seek help in higher ed. And we should find it, um, we should find ways to make that a little easier.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

Yeah, and I wonder that's not that's interesting. I think maybe a lot of it has to do with the fact that because it's considered the beginning of your adulthood, you're like, oh, I should be able to do this on my own, I should be able to do that. But it's really, you know, at any age you can struggle.

SPEAKER_03 45:35

But my friend, I mean, she she had said, like, you know, I was seemingly uh at the top, I was going for my PhD, you know, I I was, you know, I kind of had everything going for me. I beat myself up because I thought I shouldn't be feeling this way, you know. I'm I'm doing really well. I'm had it on a good track, you know, and but even uh mental health struggles or or any physical illness doesn't know that you're going for your PhD. It's gonna strike when it when it strikes. And um, I think we need to make sure that we have the proper reinforcements in place so that people, you know, who are in those situations or are very high achieving feel comfortable um getting access to to the care that they need.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

And that's this actually goes into another thing I was thinking about. And I wonder, Mackenzie, if you felt this way when you graduated, the postgrad slump for a lot of people is so real. I mean, for for some people, it's because they're like, okay, I spent in our case it was two years, but for some people it's four years, some people it's however length of time they're like, I spent all this time working towards this goal, getting this degree, and now it's gone. And I feel like there's nothing left to achieve, and I don't know what to do myself anymore. I don't have a sense of purpose. A lot of people feel that. In my case, it wasn't quite that. It was more like I've gotten my degree and somehow my professional life is worse off than it was before I got it. That's not the case anymore. But I was like, what you know, what was the point of that? Like, did I just waste my time? I'm never gonna get anywhere. So I'm wondering, did you, I mean, did you have like a a more positive outlook after leaving or was it more complicated?

SPEAKER_02 47:34

It was definitely it was definitely complicated. Um you know, I I genuinely like like the the mentors at Leslie and I I feel like I formed good relationships with with them. Um I think no like knowing the state of that program and like like just how much how messy it was. We were also the first group that were back, like after the pandemic, like we were the first in-person group. Like I feel throughout like all every institution I've been in, especially in the arts, like you're witnessing it crumble, and so there's like a relief of like I'm happy that's done because I see that like things aren't aren't well, and so you're just like okay. Um, and I I was fortunate pretty soon after grad school to go into a fellowship at the public, which really like took up my my time, and I feel like I feel like that's that's one reason why I'm like like those those and that fellowship was six months long. It just like I fully threw myself into that. So it was a I had like a huge like onto the next. And I've I like encourage people to have that attitude, you know. But it is it's it's hard when you put so much into something, but like all of grad school is the process, like the process is the thing. There's no like the degree at the end, it's it's cute, but it's not like like the degree means nothing in terms of like the piece of paper doesn't the piece of paper is a marker, it's a symbol for what you've done, but it's not what you've done. Like what you've done was throughout that whole time, and that doesn't go away. Um, and like that symbol also doesn't go away. Like I always urge people to remember, like, you did that, like you did that shit, you have a degree, like you have your MFA, like that doesn't it doesn't expire, and so like really, really use that, but you do need to get over you gotta get over the like you're not um I don't want to say like you're not in school anymore, but like that attitude can be can be helpful, like dwelling in like the negativity or like any of the stuff that comes up naturally in academia because academia is like a mess and is rooted in a lot of um well I mean personally it's like academia is really racist, but like I have to grow grow outside of it, like take what you got, leave what isn't serving you. Know that it also, I mean, unless if you were like fully on scholarship, it's also leaving you in a financial debt. So you're putting yourself in a financial hole for like a degree in art, which is gonna be depressing in some form. Like that's just like a natural, a natural feeling, but we're all in it together. It sucks, like it really sucks. But I think like feeling that and and acknowledging it is like is really key. Like those feelings are valid, like this shit is fucked, and like we are getting a raw deal just by like wanting to better ourselves, and you know, like the education system just is not they don't care about our learning, like, or else it would be for free. Like the barrier to entry wouldn't be so high, like and it is, and it is like also exclusive, like not a lot of people can afford to go to grad school. I feel like I couldn't afford to go to grad school, and like I did go, and now I'm in a lot of debt, and so um I don't know, it's just it's a lot of things to think about, but yeah, I going to grad school did lead me to like a lot of opportunities that I would not have had if I didn't go, and so it it's just like I feel sometimes like I am playing a game, and that sucks, but this is also like this the society that we inherited.

SPEAKER_00 52:08

I agree, and it's you know, and this is something that I wish now I'm I'm a teacher and um outside of the art stuff, and it's something I wish a lot of parents would know is how little it matters what school your kid ends up going to when they're in college, you know, how little it matters if they get a master's or not. I mean, yes, it depends you know, if they want to be a doctor or a teacher or something, yes, you would need advanced degrees for that. But um, but a lot of, you know, it it doesn't, someone who goes to a state school doesn't isn't necessarily gonna do worse than someone who went to an IV. A lot of times they end up doing way better, you know. So a lot of this elitism and BS that, you know, a lot of people in wealthier suburbs grew up with, you know, a lot of the kids that I work with, they definitely come from that world when the parents were like, we we need our kids to to be in in IVs by the time they're 13, blah, blah, blah, like that toxic mentality. It serves no one and it matters so little. And you know, I I see a lot of parents getting worried when they, you know, if their kid isn't reading as fast as the other kids or isn't doing this, and it, you know, it's they're gonna be fine. They're gonna be fine. And I, and you know, I I have a message for the parents who are like, oh, you know, help. It's it's kindergarten and my kids not reading um, you know, full sentences, like they can barely get sight words. What are we gonna do? I'm gonna tell you.

SPEAKER_03 53:42

So um wait, are they supposed to be reading full sentences?

SPEAKER_00 53:48

No, they're they're they're not. I mean, at least, you know, 25 years ago when I was in kindergarten, they weren't expected to. Most of the kids could read. I was one of the few kids who could read. Like when I was in preschool, I used to read to my friends. Like I would take a book and start reading, and they would all gather around. It was great. I had all the glory. But let me tell you, so we all knew kids like this in school, right? When they were in kindergarten, they're reading chapter books, they're reading Harry Potter, you know, by first grade, second grade, they're sitting there with a stack of books, they're reading 10 at a time, they know exactly where they were when they marked their place. They can remember going back to it, like, and those kids, you know, here's what here's their average, average, here's the average life trajectory of such a kid. So they do all that and they grow up. They're on maybe uh 10 different SSRIs at any point. They've maybe kicked a benzoaddiction or two, uh, maybe not addiction, but a dependence. Uh, they've got maybe three different mental disorders. They um end up going to good schools a lot of the time. They end up doing well on standardized testing, and then they graduate and they end up making no more than 45k a year from three different jobs in the arts. Um, I'm just talking about a friend, just a friend, not talking about anybody in particular. There's no way I would know about this. Not at all. Not at all. It's so bad. It's so bad. That was that was totally me. That's what I'm saying. No, what I'm saying is like I was literally like I was reading chapter books in kindergarten, and that's what happened to me. So, you guys, you don't want your kids to turn out that way. So don't don't worry about pushing literacy by that age. It's gonna be fine.

SPEAKER_03 55:47

I mean, and you relate to Sharice teaching. My mom uh was a special education teacher for about 15 years in the public school system. Um, and then now she's a tutor. She works with some special education, some kind of gifted uh students. Um, but she would say the pressure from parents is just uh unbelievable. I mean, she sees it more now because she's dealing with a lot of high net worth families. Um but the pressure from parents is just crazy. I mean, they want their kid to, you know, be reading at a fifth grade level in second grade or first grade, you know, they want their kid to be in math leads, they want their kid to be doing two sports. They want, I mean, it's just uh no wonder why kids are growing up with so much anxiety and and mental health uh you know issues.

SPEAKER_00 56:52

And another thing, oh yeah, the pressure.

SPEAKER_03 56:55

I mean, the pressure is just crazy.

SPEAKER_00 56:58

Totally. And it's you guys are both in New York, so I'm sure you guys are familiar with, or at least you've heard about, the kindergarten application system and feeder schools and that whole mess. It's one reason why I'm very glad to not. I mean, I love New York, but I mean, raising a kid there and just knowing about all that would be so and and like it's for what? I mean, a lot of them, you know, Nepo babies end up taking, you know, a lot of opportunities anyway in a lot of these schools because they're, you know, A-listers send their kids there, a lot of very wealthy families. So it's like, what's the, you know, and and it's just knowing how many kids end up, you know. I went to both public school and private school, and you know, that's a long story, but it's it doesn't necessarily granted my private school was more a lot of kids with learning disabilities and mental health issues went there, but um, you know, it doesn't necessarily um guarantee you a spot in this place or in that place. So and I think it's um yeah, I don't know. I'm sure, and I've heard a lot of people who went to New York City public schools and they love their experience there, they had a very diverse childhood, diverse experiences, and it made them like a better citizen. So it's you know, yeah, the bucks gotta stop somewhere, you know.

SPEAKER_03 58:26

I mean, and if you are going to expect that of children, uh have the proper uh resources in place to help them when it inevitably affects their mental health.

SPEAKER_00 58:40

That's why that's how I feel about it. Well, Mackenzie, you grew up in Trinidad, and from what you've told me about the schools there, it was like very strict and everything.

unknown 58:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:50

Oh my gosh, I've been talking about this since I've been back because I've been seeing uh once from childhood, and I'm like, oh my god, like this it was crazy. Like it was crazy. Like we were it there was corporal punishment, like we were beaten. I was like constantly pushed to be like my best self at a really young age. Um, and like it was pushed through fear to the point um where if you like in my class specifically, and this isn't like true across the whole country, but like I was a really smart child, and I feel like unfortunately, like that was measured in like the schooling system by putting the kids with the best grades in like the A class, and then the other kids would be in the B class, and then like if your grades were lower, you'd be in the C class, and then most of the class, I mean in Trinidad it's more like the segregation is more like Indian, Indian African, but a lot of the C class is really black, and like a lot of the A class is really Indian, and so I was like a black student in these really smart spaces, and like my teacher also like she did this thing where we had to rearrange our desks, like depending on our touch scores. So if you were like one of the highest scores, you'd be in the front of the classroom, and then if you had one of the lowest scores, you'd be in the back. And I just think about what that does to your brain at an early age, because you're adding in like competition. If I got 98% on a test, I'd get two lashes for the two that I got wrong. And so I think like you know, there's an exam that we had to take in standard five. I can't I'm not sure exactly where that translates in America, somewhere between like middle somewhere in middle school, I think it would land you. But like at the end of set standard five, you take this exam, this SCA exam, and like the top hundred students in the country got like this huge banquet, like got a lot of recognition, and I was 101st. And I just remember being like right outside the mark, and I remember trying so hard. And I remember thinking it was gonna be the most like like this was the most gonna be the most intense moment of my life. I thought this exam was gonna be the biggest exam of my life, and I worked so hard, and I remember my teacher being so disappointed in me because she was like, and you didn't she was like, you just weren't enough, and I think all of that pressure, like at an early age, I mean, me right now is like pretty intense and disciplined, but I had to do a lot of unlearning from from that time and trust in like in myself. Like I didn't even celebrate when I did well because I was so focused on what I did wrong, and that's like a lot of unlearning. But you know, going back to the whole Ivy League, like institution thing, like these institutions don't make you like they don't add value to your being. Like, I'm sure you like what's you like you are the only person that can add value. And I feel like on an institution level, a lot of us are playing are playing like the institution game because so many people are like, Well, where did you go? And where are you now? And like you're looking for that name that you recognize that can back someone so that you can feel like okay, this person has like legitimacy, and that they're legitimate because of like what you associate as like a greatness, like this institute is great, or this this only accepts like smart people or like or or any of that, and it's like no, we lost the job, and you can just pay to put like money talks, like you can pay for anyone to go anywhere, like these these connections and you know that like people obviously like work really hard to like you know, like the MFA, like you work really hard to get that, to complete that, like that's not taking away from like the work that you do.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:56

Anyone that like went to an ivy leave, like that's not taking away from like their the hard work that they did to get there and like fundamentally, like yeah, it's so just like regardless, that place does not make you valuable, exactly like we're putting exactly, and like going to such a program, like it does not make you a writer. I was one before I came in, and I was one while I was there, and I was one when I left. I didn't magically become one because I went to such a program, and it's like we gotta get rid of this idea of certain work only having legitimacy because one entity has acknowledged it or promoted it, or oh, you're only considered legitimate if you went through this kind of program. I just think that's such a toxic way to think about it. And it's also just, you know, it's also it goes back to that whole elitism thing of like, oh, it, you know, this is only or only a certain population can get to know who you are and you can only be considered real or legitimized if this population knows your work and admires your work, and it's like that's not, you know, and it's so who's saying this? I don't know if you're familiar with the he passed away about 15 years ago, the comedian Patrice O'Neill, and he was talking about when people say, Oh, you've made it, and he's like, Well, what does that mean? Like, I've made it, that's so obscure. So it's like, what, you know, these constructs are just so you gotta wonder how much value we put on that.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:35

Yeah, too much, I I personally think. Um, but you know, there is uh I I think you don't want to take away from people's pride and their merit either, right? I mean, if if someone goes to Yale or Harvard or wherever, uh any Ivy League and and they graduate and they get their degree, they get their master's or PhD, whatever, like you don't want to take away from that either. So I I see both sides of it where it's like, yeah, in the grand scheme of things, that piece of paper doesn't really matter much. But on the other side, you know, there's there's people who waited their whole lives to get in and worked so hard, and then you know, they finally get it, and it's it's a big achievement.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

Yeah, like it's symbolic. It's symbolic for a lot of people. If you're the first in your family to go to college, that's definitely something to celebrate, and it means a lot. Like, if you know, so for a lot of people that means a lot. And McKenzie, I know you gotta go. It's been a really great conversation, and we're glad that you came.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:46

Yeah, I just want to say for sure that like there's no way we could take away like that value. Like and I hope that wasn't mis misconstrued. Oh no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no. Know what you meant. Um, yeah, I was gonna say I never like I don't want it to seem like it's like I'm saying the degree doesn't matter. No, no, no. Oh no, that it's not not at all. No, like I was saying that you place the value on yourself, like the institution doesn't hold that over your head.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:19

No, absolutely. No, you're a hundred percent right.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:22

Is there anything you want to plug, like any projects that you want people to know about? Like, where can people find you on the internet?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:30

Um, you know what? Like, I will I will just plug my Instagram for now because I'm in the midst of yeah, I'm in the midst of putting things together, and when I when I release it will be found. Well, I'll announce it there. But it's M C K E N S I I. And yeah, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:55

Thank you so much, Mackenzie. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for coming. We hope to see you again.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:01

Yeah, hopefully. Well back for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:06

We'll do we'll do dinner in New York again for sure at the moment.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:11

Bye-bye. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:17

Okay, that was really good. That was awesome. Yeah, she's great.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:22

She is. She's very, very smart, very bright. She is, and she's an awesome person and a great friend. And do you want to wrap it up or talk about some other things, or what do you want to do?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:34

Um, I don't have anything to wrap up with personally. Um, but if you do, like feel free to the floor is yours, my friend, as always.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:45

No, I mean, um, yeah, no, that was just I was looking forward to having that conversation because a lot of that stuff was on my mind. And it's funny because, yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:56

No, I I was just gonna say, I I think she brings a lot of interesting perspectives uh in terms of academia, um, and you know, how her experiences and also, you know, just in general, like how things like mental health are handled and the pressure. I think those are all really important topics. And I'm I'm glad that she was here to to sort of bring that in. Because yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:23

I'm glad to. And it's it's just really nice to have. I want to have more guests on. We have more people who want to come on. And if you're listening and you ever want to come on and join the circus, we would be glad to have you if you got something to say pertaining to these topics.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:38

Today, today was a little more um heart heartfelt, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:43

Oh, we can make it less heartfelt if you want to hang on.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:46

No, no, no. Well, I kept like there were little moments where like I kept thinking, like, can I can I interject with a joke here? And it was like it was like that game of jump rope where you have the two people at the end. Oh my god, you like that? Like, when can I jump in? And there was not quite a point because she's so uh profound and such a good speaker. I was like, I don't want to ruin it.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:09

Um, but that's cool. I mean, so it's sometimes good to have a balance. I'm sure nobody wants to hear me um having special messages for people all the time, like I did last time. But I it's cool. I mean, um no, but there there were a couple of points where I was thinking I was thinking that too. I'm like, man, like maybe like I could have a joke, but I'm like, no, I don't want to ruin the flow. But you know, it's funny how hard, you know, it's I I enjoyed doing this podcast a lot. I look forward to it, but you would be surprised at, or maybe you're not, if you're listening and you're like, man, this this girl's obnoxious. Um, how hard it is actually for me to um have conversations in a group because I feel like I'm not very good at knowing when to speak or being able to tell when someone is gonna stop talking. And again, it's I was talking to my this is one reason why I was talking to my primary about like maybe pursuing a neurodivergence diagnosis in some way because maybe those traits are there. And it's funny, whenever I bring that up, they're like, um, I don't think you're autistic. I'm like, I think you need to observe me for more than five minutes a year, but you could see, but I'm gonna turn the light on, keep going.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:23

Yeah, I mean, I I've with my mom being a special ed teacher, I've asked her several times throughout my uh well, I wasn't asking her when I was a baby, but probably from the ages of like 10 till now, I would ask her, like, you know, do you think maybe there's a little autism there? And she was like, No, like you make eye contact, you know, you're like you don't stim, you don't do so no, I mean, neuro there's there's divergence happening there, but like, no, I don't I don't think you're autistic. Um, but it's it's funny too, even and well, that's another episode entirely, like how how uh lause we've become about using the term autistic.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:13

Yeah, I hate that's a thing though. I I almost feel like it's become like OCD and people are like, oh my god, I love to clean, I'm so OCD. It's like you have no idea what that is.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:22

I'm so autistic. Like, oh my god, I'm so autistic.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:26

But yeah, it's um it's like um, but also in this day and age, I mean, um, especially why would you want to claim you were when RFK is trying to eradicate them all?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:40

Right, he's trying to send them all off to a farm. I mean, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:45

But it's um, yeah, no, but I was thinking about when she're talking, she's talking about her dad saying, Why don't you write funny stuff? I was thinking of my own dad and some of the stuff he said on this trip when we were eating dinner right next to a theater in downtown Naples, Florida. It was like the Naples players. I don't know if you've been what part of Florida are you from originally?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:06

I'm from uh Sarasota, which is Tampa. Um Naples is south of South. Southwest. South Southwest. I don't think I've ever been it's nice. I think we have been to Naples. Yeah, I think I have a long time ago. I think I went to Naples. Um, but I I mostly have been around Tampa area, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:30

Um Key West, maybe um, yeah, yeah, but it was but anyway, it was a really beautiful place. Everyone's like very fashionable, very a lot of nice architecture and all that. But there was my my dad, he's like he he saw that there's a theater, he goes, So do you write for theater? I'm like, my dude, I had a play performed in four different theaters. Are you not paying attention to anything? And it's just uh puppy. Let's go and it's like yeah, so it's things like that. And then he said, like, oh well, you'll succeed eventually. I'm like, dude, you just keep like coming with the hits today, don't you?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:13

Dude, I would have I would have gotten on a plane and left if my dad said that to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:18

I wanted to do that, but it was oh my god, it's like I want to be, you know, I don't know. I I yeah, I I I I just don't know what to do anymore. I kind of just like tune it out, and like um there's a lot of drinking being done on that trip, so that definitely helped a lot. So that was good. But vacations are interesting in my my family. Um, we've had some crazy stories with that.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:47

I never talked about we gotta do that. We gotta, I think, make that a whole other.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:53

We have um, I mean, yeah, vacation stories, field trip stories. I've got quite a few good ones.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:00

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:01

It was just um, but yeah, I don't know. What a what a time, man. We have our next episode. Um it's funny, it was I was thinking, I know we said June 13th, and then I actually forgot that I'm filming on June 13th. So we could do the 14th.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:22

We could do Yeah, we could do the 14th.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:25

Um I think we have a guest for soon. Uh another guest.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:31

Oh, the hair stylists? Yes. Oh yeah, okay. Cool. Yeah, I'd like to get obviously her on. I'd like to get Stephanie on again. I think that would be fun. I'd like to get Neil on if he would be open to it. Um yeah, I think there's there's a few people and then even some people on my end that I think would would be good.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:54

Of course, you can get Brian on if you want to.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:56

Get Brian on.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:57

Get Brian on. We're all gonna see each other in two weeks.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:01

We are all gonna perfect.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:03

But it's um, what was I gonna say? And we can like we can also um bring some bring some bits. I have a hilarious Father's Day gift planned, and I'm gonna have to, it involves music, so I'm definitely gonna play it on the air, but it's very funny. It's um in a few weeks I'm gonna do that. But yeah, we could make we could um joke as much as we want. We can have some jokes, have some profound. So it was funny when she when I was talking about New York public schools, it reminded me of this one thing that happened when I was a kid. So you remember the show Hey Arnold? Oh, yeah. Nickelodeon, yeah. So it was, I don't know if it's set in the Bronx or Brooklyn, but it's a very it's set in like a really gritty part of New York.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:50

I think it's Harlem, actually.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:51

You think it's Harlem? It might be. I should look that up. But I remember that the school in the show was called PS118. Is it Chicago? It's in Chicago. It's not New York. I don't think it's New York. No, it ha it has to be because because the school is was called this part of the story was called PS118.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:12

Arnold's named Hillwood, an unnamed fictional metropolis set in Washington State.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:19

What wow, really?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:22

How do it's not New York? Because it's everybody had said they're saying it's a hybrid of Seattle, Portland, and Brooklyn.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:31

Real Oh, okay. The the Brooklyn part makes sense because the school, so the school was called PS 118, and I'm not from New York. So when I was a kid, I saw that and I was like, that's a really weird name for a school. Like, why would you call it PS? That's so weird. And then when I got a bit older, we went to Brighton Beach and we saw a public school that was PS, I don't remember the number. And I said to my parents, like, that's like the school from Hay Arnold, PS, and they're like, You understand why it's called that, right? And I was like, no, and they explained it to me. And I was like, oh, okay, there are a lot of PS's around for a reason. I didn't realize I was like embarrassingly old. I was like 12 when I realized because it was called public school, but I didn't realize that.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:17

All right, I think this was a great episode. That was awesome. Thank you everyone for listening. Um thank you, everybody. Please tune in, keep following us, keep looped in.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:27

Keep following us, make sure your kid never reads at a third grade level in kindergarten because they'll end up like me and you don't want that.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:33

No, and probably I was reading, I don't I wasn't reading at a third grade level, but I was reading at like I don't know. Oh my god. All right. Bye bye. Bye bye. Stop.