Angry Women

Minna Canth: Feminist, Playwright, Absolute Force of Nature

• Jessi Christian • Season 1 • Episode 2

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She had seven children, ran a shop, and still found time to change Finnish law.

In this episode of Angry Women in History, Jessi and Jose dig into the life of Minna Canth: Finland's first feminist writer, playwright, and professional thorn in the side of the establishment.

They talk about how one play sparked a national debate and actually changed legislation, why she was called "controversial" for saying things that were simply true, and what a 19th century argument about prostitution has to do with Sigmund Freud.

Plus: the industrial revolution, deepfake porn, and why Minna Canth always looks slightly annoyed in photos. Honestly, same.



Photo: Victor Barsokevitsch, 1894 / Finnish Heritage Agency

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Jessi:

Hey, and welcome. My name is Jessie Christian, and this is "Angry Women in History." And if you're wondering, "Wait, isn't this the Angry Women Podcast?" Then yes, it is. But, quite early on when I, when I started this project I already knew that I wanted to add, historic elements because I'm a major nerd. And there's so many women in history who are just, forgotten and glossed over. So I think that part of feminism nowadays is rewriting their history and, um, putting them back into the story. but I'm not doing this all by myself. I actually think solo podcasts are the worst. So with me today, I have the wonderful Josefina Falk, who is also the design brain behind the Angry Women brand. So all the cool designs you see on our social media, um, on our, Spotify podcast, it's all done by Jose.

Jose:

It's an Honor, really. The pleasure is on my side. and by no means I'm a historian or a professional or, any kind of expert. I'm, in fact, here as a person who doesn't know much.

Jessi:

Yes. I actually wanted to invite Jose because I'm a nerd when it comes to history, and she's not. that means that…

Jose:

Ouch.

Jessi:

Sorry, no offense. but that-- no, that means that you will ask the questions that maybe like a normal person would ask and not me, you know? A normal

Jose:

Exactly. I'm a normal person.

Jessi:

And so in that way, that really helps. And as Jose said, neither of us are historians. I used to work as a journalist, so at least I know how to research Um, but this podcast is still, like it's not our full-time job. It's a passion project. So, if we're saying anything wrong, feel free to, correct us. Feel free to call us out. That's totally fine, and I'll make sure that we either correct it on social media or, on the next episode. But please don't complain if I said 1844 instead of 1845. Like, yes, I get it. Like it's wrong, but it's- a bit, it's a bit of a- But today we will be talking about my favorite Canth, Minna Canth. And

Jose:

I

Jessi:

can actually say that because I did read Immanuel Canth high school. So I do have different kind of Canths, you know,

Jose:

How many are there?

Jessi:

But yeah, I was forced to read, Immanuel Kant, back in high school because my German teacher was absolutely obsessed with him, and he was also my philosophy teacher. I think we spent pretty much a year just reading Canth,

Jose:

Wow

Jessi:

Yes. But for all of our international listeners who are now wondering like who is Minna Canth? Never heard of her. Cool name, though. I just want you to know that you should definitely stick around 'cause she's a feminist icon, and I wish that one day I could be like Minna Canth 'cause she's so cool, so inspiring.

Jose:

You will.

Jessi:

Fingers crossed, yeah. and Jossa's actually also here 'cause she's kind of my token Finnish person. Um, I told her not to learn anything or research anything about Canth. love to know, like, if you think about Minna Canth as a Finnish person, what do you know about her?

Jose:

I know that the day of Mina Canth is on March 19th- which is coincidentally also my name day. So we're flagging on my name day- and, and secondly, on Mina Canth day. Um, I know her name in regards to, feminism. I don't know actually why and how and what's the whole story, but, like, she's very hyped and, yeah, I'm just curious to know more. Please educate me.

Jessi:

Yeah, absolutely. You already brought up a very important point. Minna Canth is actually considered, Finland's first feminist writer. and she was not just writing about, feminism, but also about, poverty, you know, and how poverty also affects, gender inequality. she was talking about social injustice in general and, of course, the role of women, in society. she wrote many plays, many articles, and she was also the first Finnish language newspaper woman. So I read this, so I think this tells me there was a Swedish-speaking Finn who already was a newspaper woman before Minna Canth, I'm assuming.

Jose:

Wow.

Jessi:

Wow. Yeah. please correct me if I'm wrong.

Jose:

Already proof checking the history books here.

Jessi:

know. to get us a bit into the vibe of Minna Canth, I usually wouldn't quote Wikipedia, but I just love how they introduced her because she's, they said

Jose:

How dare you?

Jessi:

you? Yes. I'm sorry. But they said," In her time, she became a controversial figure due to the asynchrony between her ideas and those of her time, and in part due to her strong advocacy for her point of view." And this is like Wikipedia and historian speak, but what that really means is that she was a loud feminist and people did not like it. You know, like people-

Jose:

Surprise.

Jessi:

Yes. Surprise. In the 1800s, they did not like loud feminists.

Jose:

Burn them witches.

Jessi:

them witches. Exactly.

Jose:

wrong, wrong part of the history, right?

Jessi:

that's around the same time as witches. I think they still did witch burnings, like, till very, recently, like 18… So I think they still burned

Jose:

Oh… Jessi: unfortunately. We'll do another episode about that. going back to the beginnings of Minna Canth's life, she was actually born as Ulrika Wilhelmina Johnsson. Did you know that? I do not. well, I've been lied to. And now I'm thinking, was she even a finished speaker then?

Jessi:

Yes, yes. And the interesting thing is, you know, that apparently, I had no idea that Minna, very popular Finnish name, is the short form of Wilhelmina, which is a German name, you know? So apparently, like, took, like, this German name and turned… Finlandized it, so to say.

Jose:

I know, but I have to say always, you always try to find a point how to make it something about, like, you know, German- Germany… Jessi: enough. I am German, so it has to. be. Ev- every, every podcast episode, I have to drop the fact that I am indeed German. I already spoke about Immanuel Kant. It was. like, That, that was already, clear then. But yeah, so when, Lina Canth was born as Ulrika Wilhelmina Johnson, her father actually worked at Finlayson in, Tampere at the textile factory. And for some of our international listeners,

they're like:

What is Finlayson? It is a very huge brand, very huge textile brand, and it is still here until today in Finland, and it has shaped Tampere as a town especially, because it brought with it the industrial revolution. Jose, you, lived in Tampere, I know, for a few years, I think, right? Or-

Jose:

Or- For a very short amount of time, but I do spend, a fair share of my time in Tampere, so, um, yeah.

Jessi:

But like how would you describe finnesan to like our international listeners, so they have an idea what it is?

Jose:

definitely the Tampere citizens know it as a area in the center of Tampere. It's, it's a huge area. It's very pretty. So if you're ever going to visit Tampere, you will know and you will see this area. It's pretty. Finlayson, obviously, it's, one of the kind of cornerstones of, Finnish textile design, home textiles particularly. was established in 1820, so it's very, very old, old establishment. and for the longest time, it actually, it has been the biggest factory in Finland and even in the Nordics overall, in history. So it's, it's huge.

Jessi:

Yeah. I also read that like, it… by the way, Finlayson, if you're wondering, no, that's not a Finnish name. He's actually a, was a Scottish man who started company in, in Tampere. but I read that, they kind of brought the industrialization to Finland- because for the first time you had like very industrial factories creating these textiles. If you're ever in Tampere, definitely also go to the Finlayson, factory store. There's some good deals, so.

Jose:

Shout outs unpaid, unpaid

Jessi:

Yeah, Unpaid. ad for Finlayson. but yeah, then in 1853, her family actually moves to Kuopio, so they're no longer in Tampere. They're moving there to run the Finlayson textile shop there. So it's not like they're stopping working fully for Finlayson, but, they're just running the, the textile shop there. And at this point, Minna Canth is nine years old when she moves to Kuopio. and she was always a very avid learner. I also can highly empathize with that. And she continued to learn and study a lot. and one of the cool things is that she got quite a thorough education, even though she was just a working class girl, because Finlayson also offered a school for the workers' children.

Jose:

nice' children

Jessi:

during the time she was in Tampere, she could learn at that school, and then she even continued to, um, go to school in, in Kuopio. And she was very talented, very smart, so she got the chance to become a teacher at the Jyväskylä Teacher Seminary. How do you say it? Yeah,

Jose:

Yes, seminary. Now we have mentioned already three different Finnish cities that they saw.

Jessi:

and everybody's like,"Where's this Jyväskylä Where's this Kuopio Where's this Tampere? But yeah. For, for like reference, Tampere is kind of a bit northern of Helsinki, I think two hours, then Kuopio is quite northern, right?

Jose:

Yeah, and Uvescula is in between of like Tampera and Quovia essentially.

Jessi:

Yes, exactly. And there she goes to this Jyväskylä Teacher Seminary, which is the first school in Finland to actually h- offer higher education to women. So in that sense, she's also like you know- that

Jose:

Hmm.

Jessi:

to study there. And this is where she meets, her future husband, Ferdinand Cant. And-

Jose:

Hands to Canth. It came from a man.

Jessi:

came from a man, yeah. Um, and the interesting part is he was her teacher. when-

Jose:

Cool.

Jessi:

Um, and they got married two years later after, after she moved to Jyväskylä. Josse, you might be like me wondering, how creepy is this? Like how creepy is it that she married her teacher? Well, when she went to Jyväskylä, she was 19 years old. When she got married, she was 21, and he was nine years older than her, so he was 28

Jose:

Okay. Thankfully not, you know- like 55.

Jessi:

Yeah, exactly. I'm like, it's, it's a bit on the iffy side, but it's like, I mean, by today's standards. By then standards, it's very much fine. Like, You know, very much acceptable. But now comes the part that, um, I can't even think about 'cause my entire body is hurting if I think about it. But Minna Cant actually has seven children. God.

Jose:

Ga.

Jessi:

And she has them very fast. So they get married 1865, right?

Jose:

Yeah.

Jessi:

first child is 1866, one 1868, 1870, 1872, 1876. Now there's a tiny gap, and then the last child is 1880.

Jose:

Oh my God. Why?

Jessi:

So every two years, every two years she has a child. And if you're thinking now, "Oh, you know, like after 1880, did they not want kids anymore?" that's, that's not the reason why there is no more kids. Actually, Mina's husband dies before the last child is even

Jose:

Oh my God.

Jessi:

Yes. So now think about it, she's, living in the 1800s. She has seven children, and her husband just died, so she's a widow now.

Jose:

And I can barely keep my plants alive.

Jessi:

Yes, I know. happy my hamsters are alive.

Jose:

Shout out to Jess's hamsters.

Jessi:

And now she, she has to make a decision, right? Because usually what you would do is you remarry or you ask your family to support you. But she does neither. She actually decides, "Okay, I'm gonna move back to Kuopio, where my family lives," and she takes over the family business. So she

Jose:

God She's running

Jessi:

the shop in Kuopio.

Jose:

God.

Jessi:

and she's still, working as a writer. she has already started as a writer before her husband died, now she really, really gets started into writing, her plays, the newspaper articles. And, you know, if I look at this woman, we sometimes talk about, if women can have it all, you

Jose:

Yeah.

Jessi:

And Minna Canth is just a force of nature. She's like, "Here I go. I do everything. I have seven children, a shop. I'm also having a writing career," you know? It's like-

Jose:

That's crazy. I don't know, man. That's She drank some different kind of water, I think.

Jessi:

I know. I know. imagine she was a man and, like, she had, no responsibilities, Or, well, had just the responsibility of, going to work, how much she could have done. Like, how much she could have written, how many, plays we would now have, you know? This

Jose:

Yeah

Jessi:

while having seven children, and running a shop. So it's, it's

Jose:

That's wild.

Jessi:

And we're still talking about her, more than 100 years later, so. A

Jose:

Hustler.

Jessi:

Yes. But, uh, before we go a bit deeper into what she wrote, I wanted to explain a bit more what Finland was like in the 1800s, because I think if you're not a historian or you don't care a lot about Finland, then you probably don't know. But, in the 1800s, Finland is still a part of the Russian Empire. it's called the Grand Duchy of Finland at the time, and, during this reign, women also had very few rights. They could not control their own finances after they got married. They had very few opportunities for, education, and their role in society was often limited to, home, family, you know, cook food, take care of the children.

Jose:

Shocker.

Jessi:

Sure. But the thing is that- During this time, there's also huge change in Europe because we have the rise of democratic ideas. we had the French Revolution about 60 years before Minna Canth is born. Then the American Revolution even earlier than that. but right around the time she is born, there was a failed revolution in, Germany as well in

Jose:

Germany.

Jessi:

Germany.

Jose:

point.

Jessi:

Germany. mentioned. And this is like a-- I learned about this in, history. It's kind of a famous revolution, the failed March Revolution of 1848. And Lenin after said about the Germans that If the Germans want to storm a railway station, they would first buy a ticket. for-

Jose:

kind of

Jessi:

Yeah, but they're not really made for doing a revolution, right? Like they're- Mm. It's, it's like this, if you're, if you follow the rules too much, then, it's very hard to do a revolution, It's not like the

Jose:

That's why we don't like the rules.

Jessi:

rules. Yeah. It's not like the French were like, "Yeah, let's just chop off this guy's head," you know? so she is in this time where democracy is rising and more and more people are, talking about it as an option, and it's no longer just monarchy. And I think that's something that also inspired her, and you can see it in her work that she has a lot of very progressive ideas. she actually started her writing career when her husband was still alive, and both her and her husband worked at the Keskisuomalainen. Am I saying this correctly?

Jose:

Yes.

Jessi:

Okay, thanks.

Jose:

Means around your vascular

Jessi:

Yeah. she wrote about women's issues at the time. but because she advocated so strongly for women's rights, her and her husband got kicked out of the paper.

Jose:

Why punish the man? poor guy didn't do anything wrong.

Jessi:

I mean, I, I cannot prove this, but it sounds to me like her husband

was like:

Hey, my wife is amazing. she's super smart.

Jose:

Yeah… Jessi: take her in.

And the editor was like:

Okay, we'll take her in. And then she was too radical, and they were like: Well, now you both go 'cause you wanted her here. So, yeah.

Jose:

God forbid women have opinions

Jessi:

have opinions. But thankfully for them, the competing paper, oh my God, it's called,"Päijänne.""Päijänne."" Päijänne," thank you. hired them both, so you know, not all was lost.

Jose:

Shout out to Bayonne

Jessi:

to "Päijänne." Yeah. And this is where she published then her first short stories, which were later then all put together in her very first book, is called, okay, hold your horses, "Novelleja." kertomuksia."

Jose:

Novel and a kertomuksia. Yeah. Novels and stories

Jessi:

Novels and stories. thank you. In 1878.

Jose:

Mm-hmm

Jessi:

And one of my favorite kind of fights that she had, she had a lot of like- little- She had a lot of

Jose:

we like fights.

Jessi:

She had a lot of little fights and scandals with people, but one of my favorite fights she had was with a Swedish novelist who's called, Gustaf af Geijerstam. and at that time there was a popular bishop who had argued that God's order required that women were not emancipated. Because of course.

And Gustaf was like:

"Okay, I have an idea here." So he wrote that men can only aspire to one day have the purity of women, and he thought that women were fundamentally different, and this was also the reason why there is immorality. And he put like prostitution in there.

He was like:

"The reason why there's immorality in this world is because women are super pure, but men are not."

Jose:

Oh. Yeah. Oh.

Jessi:

he

was like:

"Women are great. Like women are morally amazing, but then men are fundamentally different, but Mina Cand did not like that.

She was like:

"Mm-mm." And so she wrote a text that said that, men cannot defend their poor morals and their bad decisions by saying that they have just like implicit shortcomings.

Jose:

Mm-hmm." Jessi: be like, Oh, I'm just not why I go to a prostitute," Exactly.

Jessi:

Yeah. Actually,

Jose:

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they couldn't take any accountability.

Jessi:

No, exactly.

And she was also like:

"You know, the women who actually work in prostitution, they cannot use that defense."

So you're being like:

"Oh, I couldn't possibly do different because I'm just a man, so, I have to go to the prostitute." But the prostitute on the other hand, was supposed to uphold like this very high standard that he set for women. so I absolutely love that, she wrote that. And it reminded me a bit on, a topic that I've read a bit about. the idea itself only comes many years after Mina Cand is already dead. But Sigmund freud had this idea, and he published this in 1912, of the Madonna-whore complex. Have you heard of that one?

Jose:

I didn't hear that kind of last bit. you know, I haven't heard of, of the last bit before. Um, Madonna, yes, but what?

Jessi:

before. the Madonna, thing. Yeah, so the Madonna-whore complex, it's an idea that Sigmund Freud brought up because he had many men who came to him, and they were married, and for some reason they struggled with having sex with their women, like their wives. And Sigmund Freud said that this is because men tend to look at women as either pure Madonnas, so like, the mother of Jesus,

Jose:

like- Maria, Mm.

Jessi:

yeah. Or they look at them as whores, like promiscuous whores. So you

Jose:

whores,

Jessi:

And so if you marry a woman, it's much harder because now you have this idea that she's so pure, she's so, mm-hmm- you know, what this other Gustav guy said as well. but how can I then have sex with her? Like

Jose:

Right.

Jessi:

then I'm, you know. so this was his theory behind why these men struggled. Um. Uh-

Jose:

Based-- backed by science

Jessi:

by science. Back, backed by Sigmund Freud, who, is not at all a controversial person, in psychology, but the thing is, of course, this idea you can criticize a lot because, in this case, we're looking at women most and foremost, like either as an object, if they're like the whore, and we put them into like these very narrow stereotypes, like they either have to be morally superior or they're like-

Jose:

yeah… yeah. yeah.

Jessi:

And it's a very binary way of how we look at women. and entire argument between Gustav and her kind of reminded me of this because Gustav is like, "Oh, women are Madonnas." Like, women are doing everything great, right? And then he brings in the prostitutes and he's like, "Prostitution exists because men are awful."

Jose:

Hmm.

Jessi:

And then Mina Candy's like,"No, no, no, you know, it, it can't be that we have to be morally superior. We c- it can't be that, we have to uphold, um, higher standards than you. We're both equal in our like

Jose:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah. I love it. It's, it-- There's, m- many layers of, accusations and assumptions in this whole argument. Um,

Jessi:

Yeah, Absolutely. Absolutely. I wanted to look a bit deeper into some of her work. Overall, she published, 10 plays, seven short stories, many newspaper articles, and even some speeches, all while having seven-

Jose:

If I'm killed, God.… Jessi: and a shop to take care of, so. but one of the most famous, plays she ever wrote is called "The Worker's Wife." she published this in 1885, I think it tells you a lot about how she also grew up because she did grow up working class. And so it was the first time in, Finnish literature that somebody spoke about this, what is it like to be living in working class. the play, is about Johanna. She's the main character, and she marries Risto. and at the time she has, a big amount of savings. but now by law, all of her money is also her husband's money. and that was the fact in that way around.

Jessi:

Yes. So if you come with, whatever, 20,000 euros, then that's automatically your husband's 20,000 euros at that time. Obviously, there was no euros. There was markka, I guess.

Jose:

Marka ya

Jessi:

and within one year, he wastes all of her savings on alcohol.

Jose:

Classic. Yeah.

Jessi:

Classic Finnish men. No shade. and when this play, gets published and, shown for the first time, it causes a big scandal because not only is she she calling out how the Finnish government has failed married women- Mm they were supposed to change this law and they failed it. but also it shows the type of abuse that women go through, With, like,…an alcoholic husband.

Jose:

Exactly. And portraying men as somewhat vulnerable and,

Jessi:

Yeah. And one thing that I, that I really like about this play, though, there is also two characters in this play that are bourgeois women, so they're, higher class. And she also criticizes them. she is criticizing how they're not showing solidarity with Johanna.

Jose:

Mm-hmm.

Jessi:

they're not showing up for Johanna even though they're also women, right? But they look at Johanna and they're like,"Oh, she's inferior." because she's poor. And I find that really interesting because even if we think about issues we have right now in feminism where there's, like, white feminism and they don't think about, all of the intersectional experience that people go through.

Jose:

Mm-hmm.

Jessi:

So they fight for, like, their white women rights, not, not even thinking about what effect has racism on, the experience that women go through. What about, trans women, what about queer women? in that sense, she's very ahead of her time. She's already now calling out like, we should all fight for each other," right?

Jose:

That's very woke of her.

Jessi:

very woke of her. Yeah. she also got some pushback from the church around this play. she was criticized that she portrayed the, holy and sacred institution of marriage as a trap that could legally destroy women.

Jose:

Hmm.

Jessi:

And I mean, it was, right? Like- it was a trap.

Jose:

I, I wasn't, I wasn't gonna say it, but Yeah.

Jessi:

Yeah. And my favorite part about this is that there's a huge debate about this, people are talking about it because of this play that she made. And a few months later, the parliament actually changes the law, and there's now a new law about the separation of property. and that's, like, so cool. So she had an actual

Jose:

actual effect Nice. That's cool. That's why you need to be loud. That's why you need to do things. You need to do art even, and, talk about these issues in a form of whatever you choose.

Jessi:

Exactly. I mean, this is literally the essence of, why we wanna do Women," is, we have to talk about it.

Jose:

Yeah.

Jessi:

you start a debate, things change.

Jose:

Hmm.

Jessi:

when I learned about this, it, reminded me of the case we have right now in, you guessed it, Germany.

Jose:

Germany.

Jessi:

there's this very famous case right now of, Corinna Oehlmann-Fernandes. Have you heard of that one? It's the one where she's an actress and moderator, her husband, shared deepfake porn of her.

Jose:

Oh my God, this is so awful. But yeah, do tell me more, even though I don't wanna hear. it.

Jessi:

Yeah.

Jose:

Yeah.

Jessi:

a crazy case. it's sparked, like, a huge debate right now. so For a few years, Cleo Fernandez was aware that, somebody was sharing, deepfake porn and also, photos, but they weren't photos, right? They were- AI-generated, of her and was like sexting with people. And the worst part, it was people, in her life, so it was, colleagues

Jose:

Oh my God

Jessi:

I think until the day, she probably doesn't even know how many people might think they had, like, a with her or, like-

Jose:

Yeah… Jessi: they… Yeah. Because she only found out because eventually some guy came to her and

he was like:

"Hey, you're acting quite different than when we're texting." And she was

Jose:

gosh… Jessi: Text? What are you talking about?" That has actually happened to me in the past. Not- Yeah. Like, there has been a website where somebody has been, using my name, my face as a profile and been, talking to people. I don't know what the talks were actually about. Was there anything sexual? I don't know. But, like, after-afterwards, multiple people reached out to me. This was way back. But yeah, it's scary. I also value some form of privacy. I'm very not private in the most private sense. But, AI, deepfake, deepfake and, porn and shit like that, it unlocks a whole new era of, fucking fear of losing your privacy and- that's absolutely sociopathic, behavior.

Jessi:

Yeah. one crazy thing about this, 96% of what is done as, a deepfake porn.

Jose:

Oh my God. What?

Jessi:

And 99% of that is women. Like, women are the-

Jose:

Of course. Oh my God. What's wrong with you? I'm… gonna- This is why we can't have nice things. Everything always, like, gets ruined, like, you know, freaking out

Jessi:

No. And because of this case, you know, it, it sparked a huge debate now because she went public. She decided to go to a newspaper, major newspaper, and tell her story. And the newspaper, they did all their research, and they found her story very credible. and so they published the article. now there's a huge debate because she cannot even get him prosecuted in Germany. There is no law- …against sharing deepfake porn.

Jose:

Yeah. it Sounds like a lot of laws have to, catch up very fast- because, the world is changing on that, that realm quite fast. So we really need to,

Jessi:

the crazy part is it's already a law in Spain, so Germany is actually, behind. It's already a law in Spain where they used to live, so she could go to the Spanish police and she, reported him there.

Jose:

Oh.

Jessi:

So she first… the way it worked, she reported against anonymous.

She was like:

"Hey, somebody's doing this." And, now it comes, like,

Jose:

A business idea for Spain. How about you start tourism for, deepfake AI porn, prosecutions?

Jessi:

Yes. The craziest part is, so she went to the police and she's like: "Hey, I need to report against Anonymous," "Somebody's doing this to me." Then her husband

goes to her and says:

"Hey, it's me. I'm the one who did it all these years." And he begs her to, what is it called? to recall the report. That's the entire reason she knows is because he was like: "Oh, no, no, no. Now the police might get me, so now I have to tell her the truth,"

Jose:

My God. Yeah. But I hope, I I, hope she went through with the whole thing, right?

Jessi:

Uh, yeah. I mean, it's still unfolding, right?

Jose:

Right. Right.

Jessi:

it's still happening, and he is trying his best to discredit her. there's a huge discussion about it. But what reminded me of, Mina Khan story is that, within, I think a few days of this story, getting published, German Minister of Justice promised that they would change this law.

Jose:

Okay.

Jessi:

So, in that sense, I, I, saw a

Jose:

thing recently

Jessi:

talking about it and something actually happens. hasn't happened yet, but they are, preparing the law at the moment. so yeah, if we do speak up, there are changes and things can actually happen

Jose:

Yes. And speaking up also, not for yourself, but for everyone really. Yeah.

Jessi:

And the thing is also, yes, she's speaking up for herself, but in some way she is putting herself in a much more dangerous situation, now that this has dropped and everybody knows, she's been getting death threats. people have said "You're lying,""You wanted it." all of the

Jose:

Of course … It's like you wanted the attention.

Jessi:

there was this demonstration and she wasn't even supposed to be on stage, because there were death threats and there was police there to protect her. and she had to wear a bulletproof vest, went on stage and, gave her speech. And, um, yeah, I mean that, that woman inspires me honestly. It's the strength that she has for what she's going through and she's fighting this fight for many, many, many women that- are not famous and who are going through this exact same thing

Jose:

Yes. And we're not suggesting that everyone should put themselves into danger like that, but like obviously it's, it's scary, but hats off really. Um- Yeah.

Jessi:

personal decision if you wanna do this and go public with these stories. But she decided to, and now we're seeing a change. but yeah, going back to, Minna Canth and how she also affected Finland and Finnish feminism. Her main work and kind of her masterpiece, is the play "Anna Lisa." this one she published about 10 years later than "The Worker's Wife." And you can see that she has also changed, as a writer- because this piece is much more inward. It's much more looking at like psychology, moral decisions, what is like a moral thing to do. And, the play is about Anna Lisa, when she's 15 years old, she has a secret relationship with her parents' farmhand, Mikko. she manages to hide this pregnancy from her parents. But after the baby is born, she goes into a panic and she kills the baby.

Jose:

Hmm.

Jessi:

And then with the help of Mikko's mother, Husso, she buries the baby in the forest.

Jose:

That wouldn't fly well in America right Just saying.

Jessi:

Absolutely not. No. And then, um, a few years later, like this is already behind her, she wants to marry Johannes. but now she gets blackmailed by Mikko and his mom because they're

like:

"We know what you did," and they say that, "We will reveal your secret, if you do not marry Mikko." Mm-hmm.

Jose:

marry Miko

Jessi:

And then even Anna-Liisa's parents are like: "Yes, marry him." "We cannot let this story come out. You will bring shame on our family," blah, blah, blah,

Jose:

blah. Blah, blah, blah.

Jessi:

Yeah. But Anna-Liisa refuses.

She says:

"No, I'm not gonna marry Mikko." She confesses everything publicly, and she readily like accepts her punishment and is taken to prison.

Jose:

Tell him, Annalisa

Jessi:

Yes. And I love like the-- what I f- love about this story is, is, you know, like she is in charge. She's like-"No, it's my story. I'll tell it. I'll go to prison. I'm taking responsibility." In this story, she also finds some peace because she's like, "Okay, it's out now. I I'm getting my punishment as I deserve,"

Jose:

Yeah. I mean, that's also a fact, yeah, that she did murder the baby, so we're not like

Jessi:

like supporting her in

Jose:

supporting her with that, you know? Like yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Accountability once again.

Jessi:

Yeah. But like some of the themes that we have in this story is that, we can see that oftentimes others are pushing women to do something to protect their own reputation. Mm. And those others are often like family, husbands, like these institutions that women are in.

Jose:

That's a familiar storyline.

Jessi:

And like, of course, this comes at the cost of that woman, right? she's the one who would have to suffer and marry this Mikko guy.

Jose:

Yeah.

Jessi:

the other aspect of this story is that we have Mikko, who's actually equally responsible for the pregnancy, you were there. Yeah. But then all the shame and all the kind of consequences Anna-Liisa has to deal

Jose:

Of course. Oh my God.

Jessi:

Which, let's be honest, is a very familiar theme even nowadays.

Jose:

It is.

Jessi:

Yeah. And some scholars actually believe that this story, this Anna-Liisa story, could be a bit of a reflection, from Minna Canth on her own life, because she became a mother at a very young age. Mm. You know, she was 21 she married, then 22, I think, when she had her first, 22 or 23. Mm. And you have to think about the fact, like she was a trailblazer, right? she was in the first like Finnish seminary where women could study, so she had a really good career ahead. But then she had seven children, And- she still had like, you know, we're talking about her now, so of course she had an impressive career. But think about, everything she could have done if, she wasn't pushed into- having children at a very young age. you

Jose:

Exactly. This goes back to the, the meme that I think I shared to you, like- imagining the things that, women could achieve if they too had a wife at home.

Jessi:

Yes. I wish I had a wife at home. Exactly. Yeah. Imagine she had a wife at home.

Jose:

Yeah, exactly.

Jessi:

Like how many great plays we could have nowadays, but yeah, sadly she did not get very old. She died at 53.

Jose:

Oh.

Jessi:

Which, even at that time is rather early. she died from a heart attack 1897. But that also means that, she never got to experience Finnish independence. Right. So when she died, it was still the Grand Duchy of Finland. And also, while she's absolutely, a pioneer in the women's rights movement, she never got to see women get full political rights.

Jose:

Exactly.

Jessi:

that was 1906.

Jose:

Mm-hmm

Jessi:

nine years after she died, women actually got the right to vote and stand for election. And she had, a major effect on it, that it happened, but she never got to see it and I

Jose:

That's true. I mean, Finland has been pretty progressive, with women's rights You know, Tarja Halonen, shout out to our girl Tarja becoming the president and all that. And, the right to vote, being the first country in the Europe.

Jessi:

Definitely in Europe. I don't know worldwide, but definitely in Europe.

Jose:

I was waiting for you to finish that sentence 'cause I didn't wanna fact check.

Jessi:

Let me Google that now. I think in Europe at least. Um, okay,

Jose:

Just checking.

Jessi:

You know my brain can't handle the-

Jose:

You can never state a fact with Jessie without her Googling.

Jessi:

Maybe it was Switzerland. No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. oh my God, I could not… I can't believe I said that. They were like the last. They were like the last. I think they give, rights, for women to vote in like 1970.

Jose:

Goddamn.

Jessi:

New Zealand. It was in 1893.

Jose:

Okay. But Finland is not that long after, right? Please tell me. Uh, Exactly.

Jessi:

Yeah, Finland was the first European country, so you were right.

Jose:

Mm-hmm.

Jessi:

And let me check Switzerland women's right to vote, because I know this was abysmal. Yeah, 1971. Wow, I have a good memory.

Jose:

Holy shit

Jessi:

Holy shit. Yeah. Switzerland, looking at you. But what I really like about Mina Canth is that she is still recognized for her work today,

Jose:

Yeah.

Jessi:

mentioning earlier, she has the Flag Day where, if you don't know, Flag Day is when you raise the Finnish flag. and it's on her birthday, 19th of March.

Jose:

My name is

Jessi:

day. Mm-hmm. And also known as the Day of Equality, which I think is very fitting- for all the work that she did. I'm very grateful that, we're still talking about her. fun fact, the very first time I actually heard about who this person is was- Because I lived on, Mina Canthin katu

Jose:

Oh, we did.

Jessi:

Töölö. Well, we're coming to the end of our episode, but, uh, Jose, what is, like, one thing that surprised you today learning about Mina Canth?

Jose:

I was very inspired by the storylines of her plays and writings, to be honest. But overall, I'm feeling very inspired right now. it only takes one person sometimes to, really make a change that will influence, hundreds of years, ahead. that's remarkable, really. I'm curious to know whether in the future there will be days that we're celebrating, I don't know, Greta Thunberg. Sorry about pr- mispronouncing.

Jessi:

know, Greta Thunberg. Sorry for mispronouncing.

Jose:

Um, or, or people like that,

Jessi:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think you're bringing up a good point because of course at that time there were many people who were like, "Who's that?" they were like, "Why is this woman, constantly complaining?"

Jose:

Right.

Jessi:

we see this. if you talk about, Greta Thunberg, it's the same, right? people are like, "Mm, she's so nagging. She's so mm." all

Jose:

Exactly. Yeah… Jessi: And to, Wikipedia ahead of her time as Really, yes. So my question is, what do you think if Mina Canth were to see Finland right now as it is, what would she think?

Jessi:

Ooh, that's a good question. I think she would be happy about the socialism because she was a very, socialist reader. when I a bit deeper, I was like, sounds like somebody read, like, Karl Marx." I feel like she would be very sad that we have a government at the moment. For sure. And, probably she would be sad about the unemployment rates,

Jose:

We, had a good run, for some years lately.

Jessi:

Yes. No, it's- Yeah. But, one thing I also love about Minna Canth is whenever you look at, photos of her online- she always looks, slightly annoyed.

Jose:

That's true. I mean, women are being told to, smile and, when we see people's photos these days, you always have to, like, smile, look happy, look like everything is, like, fucking walk in the park, she's not like that at all, and I appreciate that 'cause that's, honesty really. Like, why would you fake- Mm-hmm… um, how are you feeling really? Like, Yeah, absolutely. That's why also the name Canth really fits.

Jessi:

Absolutely. I mean, I, I, I, love that in all of these photos, she has this slight look of Ugh," you know?

Jose:

I that, honestly. Yeah. Goddammit.

Jessi:

But nice. Okay. Well, this was the first episode of"Angry Women in History." the ones

who are gonna be like:

How can you say that Mina Cankri an angry woman? Well, we cannot say that. I can't ask her now. She's- She's- long gone, right? But the idea is, of course, to look at women that did stand up for, feminist ideas and that were very advanced for their time, and then, look at how to, how they, affected the world they lived around. and that's what we're gonna do here in "Angry Women in History." thank you so much for tuning in, and, stay angry and stay curious.

Jose:

Thank you.