Surviving Narcissistic Abuse: Why Leaving is just the Beginning | ft. Katre Keinast

TW: domestic violence and narcissistic abuse.

She escaped with a two-month-old baby, two suitcases, and no plan. Just the certainty that staying would kill her.

In this episode, Jessi sits down with Katre Keinast, founder of the Stronger Me Bootcamp and women's empowerment advocate, to talk about what it actually takes to leave a narcissistic and domestically abusive relationship when you're an immigrant, alone, and up against a court system that doesn't believe you.

They talk about why leaving is often the most dangerous moment, what narcissistic abuse really looks like before it turns physical, and how Katre went on to build a community of 800,000 survivors, and why the end of that chapter brought both grief and unexpected relief.

Plus: cheetahs, Glennon Doyle, Taylor Swift, and why fitness might be the most underrated tool for reclaiming yourself.

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If you or someone you know is affected by domestic violence or narcissistic abuse, these organisations are here to help:

Finland:

• Naisten Linja — 0800 02400 | naistenlinja.fi
• Ensi- ja turvakotien liitto — ensijaturvakotienliitto.fi

International / English-language:

• The Hotline (US) — thehotline.org | 1-800-799-7233
• Refuge (UK) — refuge.org.uk

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Before we start the episode, I wanted to give a quick trigger warning that in today's episode, we will be talking about domestic violence and about narcissistic abuse. If these are topics you struggle with, you might want to skip this episode or listen to it with a loved one. If you have experienced this type of abuse, we also included some information in the show notes on where to get help. But let's get started. Hi and welcome. You're listening to Angry Women, the podcast that's all the rage. I'm Jesse Christian, a certified life coach and your host. And with me today, I have someone who had such a big impact on my life in the past two years, honestly. It's Katri Kaynast, who's the founder of the Stronger Me Bootcamp, which is a space where I also go for training three times a week, together with a lot of other wonderful women. And Katri is our amazing trainer and just such an inspiration. If you don't know Katra, she's not just a personal trainer, a group coach trainer, and women's empowerment advocate, but she also built an online community of hundreds of thousands of people focused on healing, resilience, empowerment, and surviving narcissistic abuse. And she also has a podcast that's gonna drop somewhat soon-ish. So if you want to follow her, make sure to go to Instagram and follow at Untamed Hero Podcast. So Katra, I told you about this podcast already like really early on when it was still like a tiny baby that I that I thought about. And I said, like, hey, I want to do this podcast, and it's called Angry Women. And you were like, hell yeah, like I'll join. What would you say made you decide to be like, hell yeah, I'm gonna do this?

SPEAKER_00 1:55

First of all, it's you, Jesse. So um, like you're one of those people, like, I'll just blindly follow you somewhere. I'll be like, yeah, that's good. Plan, Jesse. I'll see you there. Um likewise, likewise. No, but truly, I think that's mainly it. But uh, it's also because I knew that it was gonna be good and you have uh a really good heart and a really good mission behind it. So I was looking forward to talking more.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

Um yeah, but today we we wanted to talk about your experience with both narcissistic and domestic abuse. And I know this is like a really tough story because when uh your baby boy was just two months old, you escaped and you managed to flee out of the hands of your abuser. If you think back about that moment, what made you make this final decision? Like this is it, I have to go now.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Yeah, thank you for asking. It kind of came to a head really quickly because a couple weeks before that I had finally told my friends about it, a couple of friends. And so it became quickly clear that this is extremely unsafe to be there. But he was started fight over something, which doesn't even matter because it wasn't anything important to start a fight over. And then I was still home with my baby at the time. I had not gone back to work, even though I could, you know, work from home a little bit. But I was super scared to be home. We had a two-story condo, and he was just raging, and so I remember just going upstairs into the room, into our bedroom with my baby, and he was like rage cleaning downstairs with like music super loud, which is what narcissists like to do to like not allow you to speak, to just do the music loud in the car or at home. Not I'm not talking about like you can't allow loud music, but the purpose of it is this dominance and control.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

And I was like, oh my gosh, like what am I doing? I was texting a couple of my friends that now knew, and then they decided to get my dad on Skype. Skype was a thing back then still. And I figured that if I'm like on the video talking to him, that I'm somehow safer, he wouldn't come to do something. So he actually did come upstairs a couple of times, and I was like, because it was quite normal that I was talking to my parents on video. And so he was just like making some faces and went back downstairs. And then we realized that like I just need to get out of there, like, need to go. I mean, it was just beyond scary at that moment. We got dressed and I ended up, I was working for this small mortgage broker. He was like a businessman, so I got along with him quite well. So I emailed emailed him. He did not know about it yet. I sent him a quick email and I said, I'm gonna come to work now. I'm gonna show you my son as well, everybody in the office. It was a super small office, like a few people. I said, just if anybody asks, just tell them that you asked me to come to work. I just that's it. I will tell you later. Um, in case something, right? And um, so I couldn't also take many things, also my including my cat, because it would have been obvious that I'm I didn't even like I didn't know what was the next step. That was like step one. And I told him, I'm like, hey, um, my my boss asked me to come in and we have a call. Obviously, I was taking my son and I was like, hey, do you do you want to go with us? I knew he would not because he was raging all day. He was there's no way he was coming with us to be around people who can detect his behavior. I put my baby in the car. It was like right outside our gate, so I could see him. And I was like, okay, uh, bye. I said, I love you, and I will see you soon. I was like try trying to be as normal as I possibly could. Uh my dad was still on Skype because I was just scared to death. And he so I walked out and he was like, Oh, you're not gonna say bye to me or I love you, even though I just literally said that. Like the gaslighting is just another level for these people, you know? And um anyway, so I went and as I drove off, uh my heart was racing through the roofs, and he stopped sharing location because he had us share our locations with each other, which can be healthy. So I don't want to say that's not healthy in relationships, but with abusive people, it's super unhealthy. And so that was like another um moment of control that he removed it, so I wouldn't like know where he is and I would worry about it, and then I removed my location and I went to work. So that's kind of that was kind of the moment that I left, and the big part of it was that I was like, okay, well, um, I don't want to die and I don't want my son to die. And I did not know any next steps that very specific day, except that we just left, and there was some type of safety, hopefully, for that moment.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

Yeah. And um I think it was very interesting. You mentioned like just a few weeks earlier you told your friends, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

And like, you know, I've been through my own uh experiences with narcissistic abuse, and I feel like it's it's so hard to like open up, like it's so hard to tell people, which I think is often the first step where you're like, this is actually happening to me. And then you get a bit of an outside perspective as well. How how was the reaction of your friends when you told them?

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Well, listen, I it wasn't like I went saying, Hey, uh, I'm in an abusive relationship, and or this person is not like I didn't even know Narc, like I didn't know any of these things. Yeah. Um I was just constantly, he was constantly like getting worse throughout the whole relationship. But the last several months of my son, once my son was born, like it was getting there were moments, Jesse, where I remember it so well, where I was terrified when he looked at me when we slept next to each other. I was scared, I was I was so I don't know how to explain it, but the person that you're with, like I was so scared of him. And so I just texted one of my friends in in Ujah and I was like, hey, he's been saying this and that, and she was starting digging because she realized, like, okay, wait, something's off. And she actually ended up telling my friend Nikki, who is like the best. But um, and Nikki has been a therapist and uh social worker and all the million things forever and ever. She knows all about it. She knows how to support you, she knows what that's like, she knows the reality and the dangers of it. And so um what I started doing actually, and that's I was like, okay, if something happens to us, nobody will know, or whatever. And so I started recording him. Yeah. Which wasn't very, it's like it wasn't like I had to plan anything. I just turned it on because he was a complete nightmare every second of a day. So getting some footage of him being horrible was quite easy. And um, I did that, and instead I would just quickly send it to my friend, and I deleted it off my phone. I was like, hey, can you like save it or something? So and I didn't I had no work exact words for it, but I just you know, my friends were like, This is not normal, obviously. I was like, Yeah, I I'm realizing, you know, that it's not. And and then Ninke reached out to me probably a couple days after, like April 20th was the really scary day when he was like pacing around with the gun, and then he, you know, threatened to kill himself and kill us, and uh it was a a horrible uh day. And he also had a bunch of guns at home and silencers and like all the fixings of that. Arizona, it's quite normal to have guns, but like this was another level, and so you know the stats of somebody like a homicide are like huge, hundreds, thousands of percent go up if you have those at home. And so um Nikki said that I'm afraid that if you don't leave, then you'll die. Yeah. And uh I did not know what the plan was gonna be because you know I wasn't I didn't have family or anybody in America. Yeah, like I had been there for 16 years, but still the thought of like where am I really gonna go when he's gonna come find me or what's gonna happen like it was so much happening. But just the you know, it was just literally like take that one step and let's see what happens next. Because the option to stay was not it.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

Whenever we talk about this topic, domestic abuse you called it homicide, I would say femicide in in that case, right? Sure. Where like you're you're literally killed because you're a woman. And and when we talk about these topics, there's always people who they don't understand why didn't you leave earlier. Like why didn't you go, right? What would you tell those people?

SPEAKER_00 10:45

I know. I hear it too. And I heard it prior too. Now looking back to like before my situation, right? It is easy to judge and think that why don't you just leave and just go and just go to the police or whatever. There is about a million reasons why you do not leave. Uh being killed with your child is like the top of the list. Because you also that the moment that you do leave and so forth, the abuse does not end. It usually gets actually worse. It's probably I'm sure there is a statistic for this, but it's one of the scariest times. Do you want to hear the statistic?

SPEAKER_02 11:18

Of course, of course I brought the statistic. Yeah. So 77% of the domestic violence-related homicides, they happen after separation, not while they're still together. They happen after separation. And there is a 75% increase of violence upon separation for at least two years. So we're like, oh, but then you left and then it's fine. Like no, the next two years is statistically speaking, even more dangerous. And um, yeah, the the violence is gonna increase. And of course, on top of that, you had your child, right? It's even more dangerous when you have the child because this is also something that we see a lot that um men who are abusers that once the person leaves, they might also threaten the child. There were very famous famous cases where men killed their their own children just to spite the woman, right? It happens every day. Yeah, just to be like, well, now you're gonna be miserable because the children.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Yeah, because they they need to look for anything to get to you and they will do it. Yeah. Most of the time. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, but I didn't want to interrupt. No, it's yeah. I think it just uh sheds light on it, the statistics and the numbers. Um so just leaving is for that reason, obviously. And then also, you know, like in my case, I was in a different country essentially. Yeah. What's gonna happen next? And then it depends also on many factors. Like, are you married? Do you not have you have no family near like what happens next? You're okay, you leave the house, and now what? They come after you legally, because that's another form of abuse that those types of abusers will use like anything to get to you. So going through court, if they have financial wealth, they will sue the crap out of you for every and anything just to completely mess with you constantly. So there are so many variables. Um, it could be that they've already threatened your life, um, which in my case that was the case actually, and so now I'm afraid. So maybe it's easier to stay. Maybe I'm afraid that he's gonna take my child from me. So I'm not gonna leave, I'm gonna stay and put up with it just so that I can be close to my child. There's so much fear. And then on top of all of that, unfortunately, and are you even believed when you speak of it? So unless I have a big bullet in my body or a stabbing, and I know this is uh very raw information and it's uncomfortable, and it should be very uncomfortable because we need to fix this. So unless that's happening, they don't believe you mostly. And even when that's happening, they don't get punished enough. Or they don't actually, you know, it's like it's crazy that the priorities of how the abusers and these people are handled is non-existent mostly.

SPEAKER_02 14:18

Yeah, absolutely. You said the exact right thing. You're often not believed if you speak up. And then if something happens, people are like, why didn't she speak up? Yeah, because no one would have believed her, right? And like even if people believe you, then sometimes the story comes of, oh, but this shouldn't ruin his life, or like, oh, he's such a nice guy. No, he's not a nice like you know, like all of these stories that we've heard a million times. We need to build like better support for women who are in those situations that they are.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Yeah, because women are in majority of who get uh abused. Men also do. Men also do, yeah. But mostly it is women, and I I know that's a stat for sure for across the whole world. Yeah. Unfortunately, still there.

SPEAKER_02 15:05

Yeah, I can tell you in Finland right now, most occurrence that around 75% of domestic violence victims are women. So Yeah. When did you decide to leave the country completely? And how could you do it? Like what had to happen for you to be able to even do that?

SPEAKER_00 15:30

After I escaped, I ended up leaving the state a few days after the escape to my friend's sister's house in Utah, and then somehow it came like I'm gonna go back to Estonia. I'm I'm gonna leave, you know, because I was Estonian citizen, so I had the passport, but I didn't have a physical passport. Somehow in a move or prior to, I didn't have it. But now, you know, looking back to any situations with people like that, who knows where my passport was, right? Like it could be. I'm not saying that's but you never know, because I had never lost my documents before. Regardless of that, I found out then that my son, because I'm Estonian, he's automatically has rights for a passport. And it does not require both parents' signatures, only the one who's Estonian. Very good. Which was, I mean, a huge relief to me because there was no way f that I could have been able to get my son documents in the US. Uh you need both parents, and the rules are different everywhere. So we requested it and then we waited for it. So total we left May 7th and we went to Estonia July 22nd, so two-ish months, two and a half. Every day was the longest day of my entire life. Yet it went so fast when I look back. But then I was found out that he had filed in court at the same time. And then I had tried to find an attorney to just get some information from, like for a consultation, like what do I do? Because I had filed a restraining order while I was still in Arizona. The judge, speaking of not being believed, you know, you're in a room with a bunch of other people because it's not like a big, it's not like a crime or something. You're just asking for a restraining order. And so there's other people waiting for the case behind you. And like I was standing there, and he's like, the judge is asking, You're telling me that you want to remove whatever the amendment is to carry weapons from him, and you're gonna take his child from him. That he was talking to me like that. And I would like, I don't know, like a couple qu a couple questions. I would like shake or not. And he's like, the microphone doesn't pick up head shaking. He was so rude to me, but somehow he gave me the restraining order. So I had that going on, and then I got, you know, while I'm waiting for the passports, I got a notification that he had like challenged the restraining order, which I'm sure he got info from an attorney to do it. And you can, you're allowed to apparently do it once only within a year. But the catch for me was that if I don't go to the court, then I don't, then it gets dropped. And so it got dropped. Of course I'm not going to the court to see the person who threatened to kill me. Uh I will that's a hard no, no, thank you. So that happened, and then waiting for the passport notification, you know, and then he filed for uh a custody that we go to court for figure out that. So I spoke with some attorney that I had found, and she's like, uh as an attorney, like I would tell you to stay so you don't always have to look around, you know, behind to see what's going on. Like you figure it out now, like go through court and do all of that, which I suppose there is some understanding of from me that that makes sense, but there was something, Jesse, inside of me that says, No fucking way am I doing that? I'm out, I need to get out. Because I just feel like if I stay, it will it's just not good. And I remember my niece came to America and she was there as well with me because she was gonna help us like move back, just also be like this person that was there uh for us. And I remember the day I got an email that said our passports are in New York, so we booked tickets and I had my friend help us and meet us in New York when we picked up our passports, and then I left my cat with my friend because I didn't have time to get all the paperwork for my cat because you had to get these shots and then make sure that it's like after certain time, like there was just a lot going on. Yeah, no, and it was like we gotta time was of essence. And so we went and picked up our passports, and let me tell you, the whole time leaving, I was so afraid because I didn't really know like what the law, you know, how it works. Like, are is he gonna come on the like are they gonna arrest me at the like the airplane or at the airport or like what's like what's going on? And oh man, we were so scared. Well, I was so scared, and so we flew from New York to Russia actually at the time. So that was prior to the wartime, and then from there to Estonia. I remember landing there, and I was like, oh my god. I mean it was I was stressed out the whole flight. And I only had, you know, we had two suitcases and then my baby and his stroller and everything else had stayed behind with the abuser because I didn't have room andor space and our time to get any of my stuff. So but we we made it to Estonia. Not that it was the end of it, but it was one step to like, okay, I'm quite far for now.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

I mean, at least now you're in a different, not just country, a different continent where you also know the laws, you know, like you have a bit of a different standing than somebody who, for example, is like an American citizen has to stay in America for like, you know, the rest of their lives. That's right. So you said that wasn't the end of it. What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 20:59

First of all, I was scared for a long time to even sleep at my parents' house. I would sleep downstairs close to their room. I was just scared every day that it would be like outside the window. Like, I mean, it's it was just crazy. And then try to kind of long story short it as much as possible. But I reached out to a lawyer in Estonia. I tried to find somebody to help me, like, what do I do? But everybody I talked to was kind of like I was like, they don't get it. They don't get it. But then my friend helped us a little bit out with the attorney in America, the same one who had told me to stay. And so we ended up responding to the custody situation. During that time, somebody reached out to me on Facebook, and I was first that was like suspicious, because I was like, maybe he sent this person or what's going on. But what ended up happening is he dated somebody right after, probably also during, but not her. You know, he might have dressed somebody else during it, but she was helping him with the court stuff actually. But then And as she was doing it, he became abusive to her. So she reached out to me, was like, Wait, what's happening actually? Because she was in a horrible place. She he was basically repeating similar things to her. And um, he also like gave her some of my clothes and said that he had bought some shorts once for himself, but they were small, they were my shorts. So she sent me pictures with like my clothes on, which was super weird to see. Wow. Yeah, it was so weird. Anyway, we became super good friends, and um, she's lovely and she's way moved on with her life, and uh, she's really nice. And uh so she said she would testify for me at court. Then we reached out to so he had another son who at the time must have been like, I'm probably not accurate, but maybe nine or something who I I had met several times, but you know, his mom was crazy as per him, and took the baby from him. Interesting, that happened second time in a row. Just people just out there to get him. Uh but those women are just crazy. That is red flag number one. If they say they're crazy, I would think about that. And so I reached out to her, which I knew was a risk because they have had on and off communication because of their son. But I was like, well, at this point I have nothing to lose. And I was like, hey, this is the situation. And I wanted to see if you're willing to like write something about your experience or whatever. And she wrote a whole long-ass testimony and said, I'll do I'll testify in court for you as well. And she, when I read that, I still have it, I was like reading my own story. I was like, what the you know, it was so crazy. I mean, there were some additional different things as well, but very, very versatile. Like he's been going around doing this for a long time. He's probably doing it as we speak. Anyway, so we went, I went through the court, and at first, like his attorney was a complete bully, a woman at that, which I was to I I understand that attorney's job is to be, you know, either a defender or a prosecutor, and they have their things, but I guess just for me, it was just so I was like, you're a woman, and like you're talking to me like this. Like, are you okay? You know, and I was like, Oh, I bet he's manipulating her because that's what they do as well. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that was the case actually as well. Yeah, but then you asked made, because I was like, okay, let me follow this situation, you know, let me follow the court and do what I need to do from Estonia. And I remember the first hearing, it was crazy hearing his voice first time. I was like, I couldn't see him, but I could hear him in the court, so I was on like a video maybe or just a voice, I don't remember. And then I think that's just another thing was like hearing him. I mean, at that time still, you know, I was like a month back in Estonia, and I mean I was my nervous system was just fried. Every second, if somebody would say, Are you okay? I would just, I would probably cry for like three hours. Like, I was not okay. And so to hear him lie completely like there, you know, they said that I set up the moments to record him and that like I did those things on purpose and made him be this way, and that he was scared of me because I was really good at jujitsu and I'm the first girl he's ever been afraid of. And my attorney was like, that's weird because we don't go for like, we don't communicate with people like this. Like, I'm afraid you're gonna hurt me. It was crazy. I mean, like, then he said he was always there for us, and you know, he wasn't. He left home in the morning at seven and got home like 11 o'clock at night. So, like, every single thing that you could think, he was just lying. So, anyways, um, fast forward, the American court made me pay for his ticket to Estonia, his hotel accommodations, and um his attorney said that every morning when he's there for two weeks, you give him the baby with the diaper bag, and he will bring him back at night. And I was like, over my dead body, will I do that? I did buy the ticket. I had to borrow money. I had bought his hotel. He came with during my son's first birthday. I had uh either my mom or dad, or then the women uh against violence lady, or then the child child protective services around every time we met up. I was surprised that he showed up in some ways because he's really a coward. He's very brave with alone, like to terrify me, you know, but like as far as in public places, he's not like that, right? Which they're not, obviously. They're different behind the closed doors. Yes. So it was a horrible experience. And then he, of course, like it was even clear that he was not interested, unfortunately, of my son. He was just there to like torture me in some ways. Like he didn't, of course, do that much because people were around, so he couldn't, but he was just, you know, he's not right. And um, so he went back and uh they basically said, you know, that he wants, you know, that I have to take my child back. And so the court hearing the final court hearing came where my the girls were gonna testify there as well. I was able to attend everything online until then, and then the judge had changed before the hearing. And so the hearing starts, and they're at the court, and I'm in Estonia, I'm like logging in, and I had requested that I could be online, and they're like, You can't be online, sorry, we're gonna give him everything he's asking for. Clay's case closed. Yeah. I was like so super interesting there. And so anyway, so I was still like, well, I'm not doing that. So I found to some magic level, I met up with this attorney that the women against violence lady had recommended somebody in the social department somewhere in Estonia, who then recommended this attorney. I went sat down with her, Katrin Gisk. So if you're ever in Estonia, she's the one. And um, like it makes me cry because like for the first time, like I sat down with somebody who believed everything I told her. Like she was like, she didn't, like I told her about like this narcissistic abuse is really hard to explain or abuse that's not physical. You just feel like you're like, I'm like, wait, but listen, he's doing this like crazy making, and and she believed everything, and she like paraphrased and she understood, and I was like, oh my god. So we filed for custody in Estonia. She said, You don't have to follow the US stuff, you guys have been now here. And um, oh, I also, another thing that US court made me do was be on Skype every single day for two hours with him, with a baby that was under a year old. Guess what he did on Skype talk to my our baby or me. Yeah. Anyway, so she's like, You don't have to do any of that. And uh I was like, Thank you so much. Another thing he said when he was in Estonia, he said, when I saw the videos that you provided court, I really saw myself like I'm never gonna be like that again. That really was an eye-opening for me. I was like, was it really? Uh okay. Anyways, so we filed for custody the following year, I think it was, and uh went to the court in Estonia, me and her, and he was supposed to appear online. He didn't show up. And the judge in Estonia was this elderly gentleman, and I was like, here we go again, because in the US my experience was absolute crap with law enforcement in general. And I told my whole story there, and he asked questions and he did all the things, and I was like, I was so scared. I was like, oh my god, you know, he was like, Don't worry about it. You know, he's like, let's give him a chance to respond. Because it was summer as well, and for some reason in Estonia and summertime, people are like, I'm off work for the three months, come back in the fall. If you have a surgery or something you need, just wait, hold off.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

No problem. I'll just same in Finland, right? It's like whatever. We're close from uh June to September.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

It's fine, I can hold off with my life. But I was like, okay, cool. And then fast forward to September 2021, I received an email from my attorney said that I got full custody because he didn't respond to our court stuff. And I got full custody in Estonia, like with everything. And so that was a big moment. So Kathryngis like really did an outstanding job. You know, when you meet people who really are meant to do what they're doing and they really care about it, like she was the one. Um so I've been recommending her to every single person I meet for no reason at all. I'm like, if you ever need an attorney, she's the one. So that was kind of story, and I have not talked to him since then. Um I think he tried to like reach out here and there through like on a birthday or something, but he never pro you know, he never bought a diaper. So like he he meant nothing to me.

SPEAKER_02 30:40

Yeah. Can I just say how insanely strong you are? Because like if I listen to this entire story and as I said, I I know a bit about how narcissistic abuse works and how easy it is to stay, and seeing how strong you are with leaving and then fighting this such like hard fight, like you can't even you know, you you grasp at it a bit, but this intense fear that you live with every day, where you're like, what if? Like what if they come now? What if the door opens now, you know? And like living under this anxiety plus then having to deal with the law, you know, like you have to deal with all the like lawyers, the documents and everything. Like, honestly, it's it's very inspiring to hear that. And like I know your story, but I've never heard it all together, you know. And it's like it's insane how strong you are.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

Thank you. I appreciate it. And I think that it's like, what's the other choice that I had? The other choice would have been not to do that. And no, I think the craziest thing at the time, like as you're kind of reflecting this back to me, is like while trying to live normal life, because everybody else just lives their life normally around me. And then I was just like, well, I'm just here fighting for our life. Like it was such a crazy experience. And sometimes I look back, I'm like, did all that really happen to me, you know? But yeah, I mean, I'm a million percent. My son was a big, the biggest, the one, the only inspiration and the push that I needed. Um, yes, of course, I should leave for me, and of course we do need to do that. And I'm not saying that if you don't have a child that you can't leave. That's not what I'm saying. But in my personal experience, he pushed me through because I was like, Well, I can't, you know. And then also trying to be a stable mother at the same time, another nervous wreck. You know, it was such an interesting time.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

And I mean you had a newborn child, yeah. Like, which is already it's so hard as is, like it's it's a lot of work, you know, to take care of a of a newborn as is, plus all of that on top. Honestly. You're inspiring, is what I'm trying to say. I appreciate it. And it's like it's interesting because sometimes we tend to say then, like, what other choice I've had. But you made the choice. Like there's always a choice, and there is people who will not, and you know, and that's I'm not to blame them. Like I don't have to fully understand. Of course. Right? Like I fully, fully understand. But you made the decision, you know, and for that I think kudos to you for being like, we deserve to live a better life. It's um it's very powerful. And I know you haven't this is not the first time you're talking about this, obviously, right? Like you've you've sp spoken about your experience with abuse many times before, and you also decided to build this community on Instagram but also on your website for other survivors. What made you decide that it's time to speak up about it now? And I want to offer this space for others as well.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Yes. I was scared at first. I like I started at the time, so 2018, like Instagram was obviously on and going, but the healing space, so quote unquote, or the abuse info abuse, whatever, that was just rising. Podcasts were rising, that information was starting to kind of bubble up more and more. And so as I created this Instagram account, Untamed Hero, because I didn't want to put my name at first, right? And I was just like saving or like reposting things that I've felt like made sense to me or spoke to my situation. And and when you you go through something in your life, that could be anything. I think a lot of people can relate to this, is you become the expert of anything related to the situation you just went through, whatever that may be. Okay. And that was me. I was the expert, you know, I was the master's degree on um narcissistic abuse because I finally had words that described what I had been through. And I wasn't indeed crazy like he said I was. And so I started posting, and then I was like posting my own stuff of my like my experience, but without my picture, without my name, and because I was scared. I was scared, you know, to I was scared that he's gonna come and take my child, and I was scared that he's gonna hurt us, and I was scared, like, even though it wasn't like a daily fear anymore to an extent at some point, it still fully wasn't gone. And so I started posting, and then at some point I was like fuck him. I'm not scared. I have full custody, I have fought for this, you know, and it's not like he can just come and do this, and like, you know, I talked to my attorney about like legally what could happen, you know, all the things, but of course, is there some fear? Yeah, sure. But then I was like, he's not holding me hostage anymore. I can speak my tell my story. And as I was seeing, like the accounts started growing on Instagram really fast, and I was like reposting things from other creators that spoke to me that made sense that I wanted to share, and it grew super fast. So there's like two sides to that. I've always said one is like that's really cool, and the other side is like that's super sad, right? Because something here spoke to you. That means you've like experienced it to an extent as well. So that kind of was it. Um, that's how Untamed Hero was born.

SPEAKER_02 36:23

And then I was like, you know, addicted to posting like an unnecessary amount of posts every day, and it just grew talking about growing the community and finding kind of the people who have gone through something similar. You mentioned earlier that sometimes when you went to like lawyers or you know, they just didn't get it. But now you have this group and like they get it, right? Like it's these moments when I think I saw a reel some time ago where there's a person like sitting on the couch relaxed, right? And then you hear the door open and shut again, and they're like instantly in fear mode. And I watched that and I was like, oh, I I know, I know, I know exactly what that's like, I know exactly what it feels like. And it's insane because we understand each other on these little levels, which for other people, they're like, why would you be scared if the door opens?

SPEAKER_00 37:27

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

But like you're instant, like you're on such like hypervigilance, high alert that you instantly understand like this is what's going on. Yeah. What impact had that for you when you kind of found your people? Let's put it like this. Like you've found your group.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

Yeah, I mean, it was huge. And I think there's like there was this saying, like, oh in around, it was probably like a post or something, but that the best um help for a survivor is another survivor. And it couldn't be more true. This doesn't mean that do not get therapy or do not get this other assistance, because that is that matters. But that is the biggest, biggest help. Because, like you just said, it's this little and I don't even have to explain, like, I'm just telling. And that was for me huge because even though I felt safe in Estonia and, you know, my family was there and my my friends, they didn't fully understand this, right? Like they haven't been through it, and so I can't, I mean, I can't also ask that they would completely understand me. So even though I was going through this everyday life, there was like nobody who really got me. And like, listen, like you know, I'm still, you know, telling my story here, you know, years later, and people like, oh, you s you know, are you stuck on your story? Or you're like, I'm not stuck on this story. It is part of my life. It had great impact on me. But I decided to use that for something, pay forward way, because I knew how much it meant to me to have somebody there that to totally gets me and that lets me know that like you're not crazy, like this is a thing. And I think that was that was the wild thing, is like not only had I found words for the narcissistic abuse and these behaviors that I was going through, because once I realized what it was, because Nikki told me, I was reading and I was like, check, check, check, check, check, like a textbook, you know. And then there were other people sharing stuff, or I shared specific events, and they're like, oh my god, the exact thing happened to me as well. And it's just so helpful. I mean, it's in any, it's it's in anything in life, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Community matters. It matters to have people around who get it, whether where you're going, where you've been, or whatever. Like it is so healing and so necessary.

SPEAKER_02 39:33

Yeah, absolutely. Uh, you mentioned now that you know, like you went through the the checklists and you're like, oh, this is narcissistic abuse, like understanding that this is what it is. To our listeners now who might be wondering, and I have a feeling there might be some out there. Like, am I in a relationship with narcissistic abuse, or have I been in a relationship with narcissistic abuse? What would you say is like some things to look out for? What is on that list that you're like, oh yeah, this is a sign?

SPEAKER_00 40:09

Yep. Also, I want to say before I kind of bring a few things up, kind of reflecting on my experience, is like, uh, do not blame yourself. If one thing that these people are good at, it's the abuse. It is not your fault. The abusers andor toxic people do not show up saying, hey, I'm about to ruin your life. You want to go on a date. That's not how it works. That is why people get stuck, because they portray to be somebody else for a while until they have you on the hook. So no self-blame needed. Lots of self-forgiveness and grace. Now, so going to the beginning of it, um, love bombing, if you've heard this ever, that is one of the first big signs for sure. Um, most of the time for narcissistic abuse. So that means that they're very quickly, very loving. They bring you big gifts, they make you lots of promises. They're just showering you, overshowering you with love. They're showing up at your work, your school, your whatever. They're just always there and just gift, gift, gift, gift, just all these beautiful compliments. And you're just like, wow, all of these things for me, you know, like, and it doesn't mean, okay, this is not to say that you're you care about things, but it's just that you're feeling chosen and loved, and they're very, very, very good at doing that. Yes. Quickly. Absolutely. So that's one of the things. There's so there's many variables, of course. Saying crazy ex, that is one of the things that to be mindful of. And also just on that note, I just want to say that like when you know that somebody's dating your ex who is an abuser, that somebody is under their spell, and you cannot go and tell them that that person is abusive because they have been manipulated into the same thing you were part of. Then there is this thing that they like to say a lot, which is like, you are so special. We are soulmates. So soulmates to me are no longer like somebody says that I'm like, oh, I don't know. They just make you this very special person. And things that seem like caring, like showing randomly up at your work, they also are very, they want to know where you're at all the time, who you're with, what you talked about. I used to have to send pictures with who I was with to my ex and let him know exactly what was discussed at the place, uh, where I was stopping. Why did I stop at this store for water and what route was I taking? Why was I taking that route? So at first, things that may seem sweet, I'm not saying this is not saying that everybody's like that. Yeah, seem super attentive. Yeah. But you get this little we feeling like like your space, you don't have your space somehow anymore. They also have a way of trying to isolate you, which is big one, because when you're isolated in ways, uh, even if you go to work and stuff, but mostly like they're the center of your life. So that means that you don't have people to reach out to to get help, right? It's just them. They may ruin your relationships. If you notice that your friendship with a friend of yours or a family member, I don't know where just like, oh my God, we just like have this situation just happen. They are very good at kind of snaking through some things to make that happen, to ruin your relationships. They will make that person to be a bad person or they did something and they just manipulate and like crawl into that. And then bad things, right? So stuff they promise, they do not deliver. At first, they maybe do, yeah, like you go on a date or do something, but they don't deliver. They make everything about I think narcissism is looked at often like they're very full of themselves and they love themselves a lot. In fact, I think it's the opposite. They hate themselves to the depths of hell, very insecure. And therefore, they want to bring you down with that. There's a couple different types of narcissists too. Some are very subtle where they make these comments that you can't really pinpoint, but they are breaking you down. And then there's very obvious ones who are very loud about it, but never in public because they need to be perceived as good. You often hear like, they're so wonderful. Yeah, yeah, do everybody else. That's the whole point, you know? And so, well, I've never seen them be. Yeah, well, you know what I mean? Like a murderer doesn't murder everybody they see, right? They only pick the people. So if somebody shares that the person that we're is abusive, and you say that, well, they've never been like that to me, just kind of take a deep breath, read up on it. And it's not to be judgmental towards you either, because you don't know, but just know that the way that somebody is with you is not doesn't mean that there cannot be abusive behind the closed doors.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

You're touching upon a subject here because I think many of us have this idea of narcissism that is grandiose narcissism, right? So we think that they're like Donald Trump. They're like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, look at me, I'm great.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Some are.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

And some are. Like that's why it exists, grandiose narcissism. But there are also like vulnerable narcissists who are a lot more like inward. They will not appear this typical Donald Trump way. But if you criticize them or if you say something to them, then like the switch happens. And it only happens in a safe space. It will never happen where they're having to show face. So it will never happen in public. Like it only happens with like their family, their loved ones. Then they're kind of letting go of that mask. And that's one thing I think that people really need to understand. Because just because you know people seem nice and kind and maybe even humble. Yeah, they seem humble. They can still be narcissistic.

SPEAKER_00 45:51

And this is not to say that everybody who's humble to narcissists, but this is-you know what I mean? Like, yeah, of course. Like discernment of this information. Like, but that just because somebody seems like the community leader, father of 17, and what you know, don't let that cloud your judgment just because they are that person that this is this can't be true.

SPEAKER_02 46:13

Yeah, exactly. And as you said, like always believe the person who's telling this to you first. Because we also have this misconception of like innocent until proven guilty, blah blah. But so is the person telling you this. The victim is also innocent until proven guilty. And if they go to court, they would also make themselves guilty if they say something that is not factually true. So they they also are innocent until proven guilty.

SPEAKER_00 46:45

And I mean that topic is like a topic of its own. We don't have to get into that today. But like the court system is already flawed, and most of the time the uh the victims do not get any justice. Yeah. Um, but then a few more things that the narcissist does is like gaslighting. So like they're wearing a red shirt, then they're gonna convince you that it's green or something that happened, they're saying it didn't happen. And you just start feeling like you're like, Are you crazy? Are you not remembering things correctly? They like to create this brain fog where just you start believing their BS. And I know that if you've never inexperienced it, you're like, well, I wouldn't never, but like let me tell you guys, they are just good at that. They are just and it's not all of a sudden, it's just this day-to-day thing. They ruin events. So birthdays, holidays, everything. They make sure that it's ruined. It will they will do anything, they it will be about them, their mood, and tiptoeing around them. They will ruin all the holidays. They'll break something, they will be like, I'm going to sleep, and then you're like wondering, Oh, are they okay? They feed off of all of that energy that we give them.

SPEAKER_02 47:49

And I feel like that's also so important. Like everything is kind of about them. So the entire space, like the entire home, let's put it like this, revolves around how are they feeling. That's right. What are what mood are they in, right? There's no space for everyone else or you know. It's just like how are they feeling, and that's how the rest will act.

SPEAKER_00 48:12

Like you're just walking on eggshells. That is very not normal. You should be able to talk about very hard things, your feelings, all of that is valid with the person that you love and your friends. So if somebody behaves that way, that is a red flag. That is not normal. That does not mean that there's not a time where you can be like, hey, can we talk about this hard thing? And they're like, Maybe not now. That's not that. But overall, that you are able to bring stuff up and they don't get instantly furious because they control you with their anger so that you stay quiet. You don't want to get a reaction from them. So those are all very hard things. And to be honest with you, I can share like from a personal experience of life now at 41 years old to this day, it's much better now, though. But if something, if I make a mistake or if something happens, and I'm like, holy shit, this is the end with people in my life. And then I've been proven now that there are good people out there because I'm like, wow, you didn't destroy me because I made a mistake, because we're allowed mistakes. Imagine that, I had no idea about that. And so that's quite nice. And so if somebody is just making you uncomfortable to speak up at any time, that's a red flag to look at.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

Absolutely. This is actually one thing that I've learned now over the years. I've been now in a happy relationship for six years. Amazing. Um and sometimes when my partner is, for example, he's angry at me, which happens very rarely because we have a very like lovey-dovey. A relationship, yes, uh, we're annoyingly cute. And when he's angry at me, I'm so scared. I'm like, he's gonna leave me, everything's gonna fall apart. And he has learned by now that if I have this reaction, it's not about him, it's about the past. But it was really hard for him in the beginning that I go into this survival mode, right? Even though he just has a completely normal emotion, you know, like he's upset about like something that happened, you know. We sometimes get angry in life. It's normal, right? Like that's literally what this entire podcast is about. And so he has a completely normal reaction, even to the point, like I've spoken about it with my sister who is a psychologist. And she's like, Oh, that's such a healthy approach. Like one time he got angry and like he left the room and he said, I'm gonna go for a walk.

unknown 50:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:36

Right? So very non-thermost. Regulating his own emotions. Yeah, regulating his own emotions.

SPEAKER_00 50:40

But I'm like back in the room, like because that's what you've been conditioned somehow through something to do. Exactly. You will follow up, and that's why we stay with these abusers. Yeah. Because you are so afraid that they're gonna leave you that they make you addicted or dependent on their validation and love.

SPEAKER_02 50:57

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 50:58

It's so lovely that you have somebody that like can handle conflict and disagreements in a healthy way.

SPEAKER_02 51:06

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I have told him like, you know, I've been through years of therapy, and I'm like, you know, I'm really trying, and but this might be that this will happen again and again.

SPEAKER_00 51:16

Listen, and I think that uh being able to do that, because I also once you know kind of we're healing, I know it's kind of a cliche word these days, but like as you're working on yourself and your wounds and your things, to be able to be like you heal in also relationships, which I'm not currently in, but I know that that is a fact. Also friendships, which I've had now that are very good and healthy, and people are proving me that you're a good person, like that you can be uh in a good relationship and have disagreements and move on with your life, it's good. And so to be able to tell somebody, listen, like uh when you walk out the door for even you go in for a walk, even though they're doing this healthy thing, and I feel like, ugh, you know what they can say? I totally understand. I love you. And do you know they support you? It doesn't mean that they're like babying you for the rest of your life, but a partner who wants to show up and be like, I get it, this is hard, I'm totally gonna step up and like help you, support you through it, and vice versa. Yeah. So like that's super healthy. Somebody who's like withdraws from the those moments when you're having a hard time, also red flag.

SPEAKER_02 52:13

So yeah, absolutely. Yeah, exactly. Like he even told me, he's like, I'm angry, I'm gonna go out, I'm gonna cool down, right? Like, but still in my brain. Yeah, yeah. Like this. Yeah. And it's it's it's been very interesting also to then in those moments, I'm like, am I so broken now that he will leave me? Like if that's where the mind goes, right? And like so many times he's just assured me and he's like, I've known you now for many years.

SPEAKER_03 52:43

Like we've been through this for a long time. I'm not leaving you just because, you know, like you get this overwhelmed when I get angry. Like that's that's not gonna be the reason why.

SPEAKER_00 52:55

You are safe. But that's so lovely, it's so necessary. I mean, it's so good.

SPEAKER_03 52:59

It's so good to hear, but also like uh yeah, it is healing, honestly.

SPEAKER_02 53:04

Um, and I don't believe in a linear idea of healing or like growing or these things, but in those moments, it's very, very healing to have somebody say that.

SPEAKER_00 53:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 53:15

Yeah. You know, I also wanted to talk about because you called your um brand and your your Instagram Untamed Hero. I did. And I can spot a Glenn and Doyle girl when I see one, you know. That's right. Proud, proud, proud. Yes. Uh so I wanted to ask because you also have the the cheetah tattooed from yes. Would you like to share that story with our listeners? Because I I I love that story so much.

SPEAKER_00 53:46

Glenn and Doyle had a book come out called Untamed. And I first I listened to it because she was reading it and like I'm kind of all in or all out kind of person with everything. So I also became the master's degree of Glenn and Doyle and everything she's ever done and all the interviews she's ever given. Because I was like, oh my God, she this makes so much sense. But that's just, you know, I love that. So I read the book and I was like, wow, every single woman on earth needs to listen to this. It just spoke to me so much. So she starts out with actually one of the I'm kind of paraphrasing, but she talks about this time when she went with her kids to, I think it was like a circus. I'm maybe saying wrong, but she went to like circus situations.

SPEAKER_03 54:24

I think we got the zoo.

SPEAKER_00 54:25

Yeah, but it was some performance. So this guy comes out with a cheetah, and then there was also like a dog, I think. And so basically the dog is like chasing the cheetah, so cheetah runs and does like this things, and everybody's like, clap, clap, clap, this is wonderful, right? And then she was just watching this cheetah, and she's basically I don't know how to say it as impactfully as as Glenn does, but basically she was seeing how this cheetah knows that she's meant for more or he's meant for more. But he's there in this within these fences, in this cage, running away from this cute dog that's chasing him or her, and he's meant to like run in the wild in in big places, and like kind of always knew that, but is but doesn't really know what it feels like, has never experienced it, but knows that there's something else. So that's kind of the story of the untamed, and so that's how she kind of came up with this like because untamed at first, like I think when people often hear it, it's like untamed, you're just wild and crazy and you can't be tamed. You're like the buttons. So basically her story of the untamed is that that they're taming you to be in this box, conditioning or andor abused. So whatever you go through, you can kind of bring your own elements to this. But really, like you're meant to be you, essentially. That's kind of what untamed means to me. And her story, because Glenn and also so I recommend you read that book if you haven't, but she also talks about her own story of you know, how she was in this like a Christian marriage with her kids, and then she ended up actually, she married Abby, who's another amazing person that I really like, uh football star in America, and so she figured found out that she's lesbian, and then they got married, and she takes you through this journey of like all of that, and it's she's such a great writer, of course, but just such a great book. So it had a huge impact on me with Untamed, and so that's where the untamed of the untamed hero came from. And listen, the hero part is like complete opposite now because Joe Rogan has really just went down the drain with his thing. But you know, back in a day when he started his podcasts, so that was when podcasts were coming up. Yeah. He was I enjoyed him because I was also in martial arts, and so I used to like him. Okay. So it was before he went a little wild. He had a clip on Instagram that said, You become your own hero, like you're the hero of your own stories. And so I kind of married the untamed hero together, and that's kind of how it became a thing. I always talk about Clennam and I'm grateful that I was like inspired from her book with that because I it really no, that's that's why I got it tattooed on me. I mean, like it plays a big part. So the cheetah has been kind of this the symbol to me of being able to really become yourself and like step out of this disowning yourself and abandoning yourself in relationships and in life and and just whatever that means for you. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:22

Oh, thank you so much for sharing that. And I feel like we we see this more and more now also where there's the idea of the wild woman, right? Or like Women Who Run with the Wolves, very impactful book as well. And I feel like we're more and more going back to this is not normal. This is not how we're supposed to be. And that's why I love that cheetah story, because I think she looks at that cheetah, and like the cheetah has that moment where it thinks like, wait a second, like this is not wait, why why am I running with this dog? Yeah, exactly. And then I think Glenn and Ola says, like, she says the name of the cheetah, and like you're not crazy, you're a cheetah.

SPEAKER_00 58:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 58:10

And you're a goddamn cheetah.

SPEAKER_02 58:12

I so often think about the you're a cheetah, right? Yes. So often I think that you're not crazy like you're you're meant to. Yeah, you're meant to live a different life. This is not, you know, like you were in these, as you said, in these very small boxes of what's appropriate to be a woman or to be a person in this world with all the different layers of oppression we go through. And remembering that we can be untamed. We don't have to be tamed. It's it's it's so impactful. So you grew this brand, Untamed Hero, into an Instagram account with over 800,000 users. And I know you had to shut it down, and we spoke about this before, but that when you had to shut it down, it it felt like a relief.

SPEAKER_00 59:04

Yes. So there's a sadness to it, but I poured into it every single day for several several years, right? But then on the flip side of it, that there was some type of relief to it. Like I wasn't a cheetah who was performing to all these people around me every single day to keep them happy. This is not to say that if you have a big platform or if you're doing these things that you're just a caged animal. That's not what I'm saying. But to me, the relief was like I don't have to figure out how to say the right thing tomorrow so people can like it. Even though like there was so much good, and who knows, maybe it will be back one day. Like I never say never. I've learned that in my life. But you know, even though there was wonderful moments, millions of them, now I'm just growing the Untamed Heroes podcast and the soon-ish coming podcast episodes, but that feels right now more aligned to what I'm really want to do. Going back to this, like your goddamn cheetah, like you get to do this your way and like what speaks to you and put out the energy and the art and the whatever that thing is that you want to this world. And so there is um the sadness and relief both at once. Like we can hold both, I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:20

Oh, yeah, absolutely. There's a certain heaviness that comes with being successful on social media where it's like, oh, like now I have to, you know, feed the masses and and give them what they want, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:34

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I in in some small fragment of a ways I can see how like these artists are like how exhausting that must feel, and how much you have to probably shut shut off things around you and just do your art and not care about what people think about it, because you will go insane chasing that like thing. And also, like, I think another thing that came up for me with this was that like because it you know, to me it became normal because I had built this forever and it was, you know, I think. But then when people be like, wow, like you have this platform, like wow, 800,000. Like, I've never known anybody who has that many, like, you know, that's a huge, like, yeah, it like I agree, and it's cool. Uh, but now that I don't have it, do you still want to talk to me? Am I still cool enough to talk to you? Yeah. Or am I no longer enough? Right. Am I no longer interested? I'm no no longer cool because now I have thousand followers, you know, on my Untimed Hero podcast account. So there's like all these different things that are coming up, and and there's somehow I have peace with all of it in some ways, so I feel okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:43

Talking a bit more because now you work as a personal trainer, you do group coaching. Which role did movement play in your journey?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:54

I mean, um it's been everything really to me. I years ago, so 2012, I had broken up from a prior relationship at the time. Um and it was my first time being like single after like years. And I was partying a lot, which in my twenties, it's just what happened in America. As one does. Yes, one does, and I certainly did. And listen, I don't have any regrets in in in my life. Like I feel like things connect the dots, take you to where you need to go. But it was out of hand, and I I know that there was some type of a numbing thing, which often it is, right? Like any kind of intense behavior in our life that we do, whether it's overworking, over shopping, overdoing something, it is to numb something, you know, alcohol, drugs, whatever. And so, anyway, so I ended up being invited to CrossFit, and even though I was still partying, I felt something's change inside of me. I was like, I loved it. I would show up hungover. Like I had slept for three hours and I went, showed up, and started working out, and I was loving it. I was working at a bank at a time. It was different, it's different when you're in your 20s. You can do that all of it at once. So, anyways, so I started and it started, I started feeling stronger, and I was starting like something was switching inside of me. Like, and I wasn't training to be skinny or to lose weight, but I did want to have some change because I knew I wasn't taking care of myself at all, you know, in those ways. Like, yeah, I would do my makeup and wear nice clothes, but I wasn't really taking care of me. And so that switched for me with through fitness. And that's another thing. Like, I always say, like, fitness saved my life, and yes, I made a choice. Yeah, and so I have to credit myself as well, of course. And we always do, right? We like to give credit to others except for ourselves, and we have to own that as well. And and slowly but surely I started switching because I was like, okay, well, what if I stopped drinking? You know, let's try that. And um, because I used to drink till the lights went out. And so I stopped and um I moved from California to Arizona because my work transferred, and I was in another relationship, and I had my cat tank there, and I was doing the CrossFit and I switched my lifestyle and I, you know, like drinking to not drinking and figuring out what should I eat, I don't know. Like I had no information about any of it. And so anyway, so that really changed. It really changed my life, and I'm so grateful for it. And so another thing that it's done over and over and over and over again, and when we escaped and we were in Utah waiting for our passports to go to New York and back to Estonia, I was overwhelmed every single of those days, and I did not know what to do. But when my niece got there, I said, Can you come to the gym? You can hold my baby and I will work out. Because I needed to get that back because I know it gives me confidence. It makes you feel proud of yourself, and all of those things help you do all these other hard things that you need to do in life. And so whenever I would survive this hard workout, it's directly translated over to doing these hard things in life. It's just the way it works. So it became more about that than fitness. And so it's over and over again proven to be that. And that's why I also started boot camps to kind of pay that feeling forward that women that can find that within them. You already have that in you. But you when you show up for this, it will change everything else in your life for better.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:27

Yeah, absolutely. Like it's so funny that you say this because I've been back with bootcamp for I guess half a year now-ish. And the other day, my partner came to me and he was like, Oh, you're getting hotter and hotter, right? And I was like, I I looked at him and he knows that I'm very like, I don't want too many comments about my body, or you know, because I don't want to be reduced to an object. So I looked at him like, What do you mean, you know? And he said. But no, I'm no, I don't just mean that you're getting fitter and you're getting stronger, but I can tell that you're getting more confident. That's right. That's such an empowering quality to have, you know. Huge. And just like if you go to the to training several times a week and you do like hard stuff, like you push yourself just a little bit, you're like, wow, what I can do, right? Like every time, I don't know if you know it. Every time after after boot camp, I go home and then I tell my partner everything that I did today.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:33

I I know that that was me with CrossFit. I'd go home and be like, Do you know what I did today? Exactly. And then I did this, and then I did it's so, but it's cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:41

It's so good. And it's like, and then I did a hundred crunches.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:44

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:44

Because it seems nuts, you know? Yes. Yeah, but it's so good.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:48

It is so good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:49

Then then then I pushed like uh 35 kilos. And it's also not only doing those things, but it is like showing up for those classes or those sessions and keeping that promise to yourself. Because we let ourselves down and whether we want to say it or not, when we do that, it in we internalize it. When we don't show up, I'm not saying from sickness and for things that happen in life. I'm saying in general, when we quit, we judge ourselves for that, whether we say it or not. So showing up means like I have my own back. I said I'm gonna go and I went. And it just builds confidence as well in the through that. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:28

One thing I really love about you as a coach is you do understand who needs to be pushed and who needs to be like pulled back sometimes, right? Because some people they're gonna be like, whoop, whoops, I just took the smaller weight, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:43

And some people like me might take too heavy of a weight and then be like, oh, I'm dying now.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:50

How do you do that? Like, how do you know who needs what?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:53

Such a good question. Uh getting to my into listen, I do have to say I'm pretty good at reading the room. And it's probably a combination of trauma and also just maybe the skill that I have, honestly. I can say that. And I know that as you know, because the fitness world is not like a trainer, all you do is push, push, push, push, just motivate. Sometimes true. And not always, because I'm not trained, I'm not here to train the Olympic athletes. I think they're wonderful, but that's not my the people I want to help. I want to help like everyday normal people just discovering that they're fucking badass, right? And so the goal is for you to show up, not to stop, not to stop coming. That doesn't mean that I don't push you, because I do. But like, I don't know, you just read the energy. And some days, you I I can just tell that even somebody who likes to be pushed, they're just here today. They just showed up today. They don't really want to be here, but they came and they kept the promise to themselves. And I don't need to like I just I've kind of I have learned that, and I I I think it has been very helpful to me as a coach. And just to be able to be supportive in the right way. It doesn't mean that I always have to guess, you know, we're adults and we need to speak up, right? And I I would say overall, majority of boot camp women, all of them probably feel quite safe to tell me stuff. Uh, but it's probably also the relationship we've developed, so they tell me if something is going on or whatever. But overall, I think it is something that I've gathered throughout the years because I started a bootcamp in Estonia first in 2020, when right after the pandemic. And so I'm sure there's some experience related to it as well. But I also care about people and I also have been there. I've been through my own journey, so I know what it feels like. And so it's not to me just like, hey, go, pa ba-pa, cha-cha-cha. It's not that always. Sometimes it's like you showed up and you didn't even do half the things, you hated everything you did. That's all right, you were here. We're gonna come back next time and go again. So you gotta read the room, and especially when I talk about like boot camp, I think that's the goal, is that you you don't quit. So how do you keep coming? Because your goal, you know, not you, but anybody, like it's not to go on the stage, to so show her like every muscle. It's it's to be healthy, strong, feel empowered, feel badass, have the confidence, have the energy, clear the brain fog, have better sleep, have better self-image. And we have that not through our body, but through how we feel about ourselves, right? And so those are all the goals that I have. And it's just it's this weird thing that I noticed because I don't know if you've ever heard like usually it's like business owners have said you you do something, you get into a flow f flow state. Do you know that? Yeah, I had I was like, that sounds weird, but whatever. Uh, but with boot camp, that is what I get. Like I just like like I go to another planet when I'm with boot camp. Not intention, like I don't I mean I plan the work, but like I don't I don't plan what I say ever uh because I don't that's not how I roll. And so there's just this flow state of things, like I love it so much, and I love all of that. And it's also there's also something really cool about figuring out somebody who may be a little bit more closed and thinking that I don't know if I'm gonna do this, and being able to be like, I got you, like don't worry about it. And then they kind of drop the the the wall or just drop their shoulders and like allow this fitness to happen in some ways. Yeah, so that's kind of a different approach a little bit, probably, but that's kind of what we do.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:19

Absolutely. And I have to say, like, it's been such a healing experience for me because i you know this, I think, but I used to train in high school in a volleyball team. We were the junior team, junior women's team, and the adult women's team was playing in the Bundesliga. So it was quite like you know, stakes were high, let's put it like this, because we were supposed to be like the next generation, like playing in the Bundesliga. And for the like non-Dermans who've never heard this, this is like, I don't know, like Premier League, or you know, like yeah, well, can't explain it any better. It's a very high league. I would train there like three times a week, two hours, one and a half hours, depends a bit. And while we were a team of women, there was a lot of competition because who ends up on the field, who gets to play, who ends up on the bench, like was a huge, huge thing. And I had a very bad injury quite early on when I was like 13 or 14, which made it very hard for me to play for a year. And then I was just left behind, you know. I was like, well, Jesse's still here, but she's not as good as the rest of us now because yeah, I just couldn't. Yeah, that was such a painful experience going through that, where you have this group of women that's supposed to be your team, but they're kind of like a bit looking down on you. They're a bit like, ugh, well, you know, she's not that good. She doesn't, you know. Uh I was also the person who like throws the how do you say this even? Like who plays the ball and then the other person like slams it, right? And so if you're not doing it perfectly, then the one who slams it gets pissed at you and all of this drama, you know. And so I had kind of stopped doing any group sport. I I did still train, but I was like, okay, I go swimming, I go to the gym by myself. Sometimes I attend a class. That's fine. I did a lot of yoga, but I couldn't be in like a group of women. You know, boot camp has healed that part in me, which is like, oh, I can train with other women and we can lift each other up. And there is no, you know, like competition, no bitterness, no, and of course, like we're not competing for anything. Like it's a different situation.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:47

Still, but still.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:48

But but still, like being in a space where all the women I know like want me to succeed, you know, and they're like proud of me, you know, and they're like impressed, and they're like, wow, Jesse, did you just do that? And I'm like, yeah, I just did that. And like it's so nice, like it really healed a part inside of me that had struggled with movement for years, you know. And now I feel like this is so easy, you know. It's like, yes, of course I show up because there is like my friends, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:18

Yes, and also like on which I love. Thank you for sharing that. And um, that's why it's cool also that everybody has their own story, and that's why in fitness, like in anywhere, you can't treat everybody just with one one thing, you know. But the thing is also that, you know, not only are you showing up and doing these things, but everybody can adjust to what they need, and you are not less because you can't do this yet, or you have to say, you know, like and I I I would I would want to say that everybody is adjusting to to what they need, and everybody seems to be pretty good about it and like not feel like they're less than. And I'm I love that you've had that moment that you feel safer and and better.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:58

Yeah, thanks to you. I mean, I have to thank you. But yeah, thanks for making this space. Like I'm so I'm so grateful this exists because I don't even know what I would do otherwise. You know, it's like I well, I guess I I would just go swimming and you know, I would do the other stuff, but yeah, it is very, very nice. So um, how can people follow you and how can people join bootcamp if they want to?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:21

Yeah, so Instagram is the best. It's at your coachcat. Um I post about there. You can go on a little journey of bootcamp workouts there. And um next around starts July. Uh so the bootcamp runs in three-month courses, but majority of the women stay, so they just keep keep going. And um, yeah, you can just uh DM me, honestly. That is the fastest way right now. And we have a really great group chat as well, and uh you would be pulled into that. And we are actually celebrating our two-year anniversary next Friday, so we have a party coming up, but yeah, you can find me there and then also on Untamed Heroes Podcast on Instagram to jump on there. Those are the two spots that I am mostly on right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:10

And I can of course very highly recommend to join us. I mean, we're like such a cool group of people, also.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:16

And that has been, you know, I just quick add to that has been really cool because I would say there's a couple of you that have known each other prior to or seen each other in some settings. Yeah, I mean, not you know, but like mostly you did not know each other before that at all. I didn't know most of the people, and everybody who's come, it's like you somehow found the right place and like everybody's fits just the way they are. Like you don't have to change about yourself anything, but it's just been such a nice build. Like everybody comes and it's like you're welcomed, you don't feel like you're separate, like you're part of it immediately. Like everybody's so great in the group, like truly. I'm blown away.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:55

Yeah, absolutely. And we're also very diverse group of women, like there's people from all kinds of nationalities, which is super nice because you know, you feel like you can talk about so many different things, and yeah. It's so cool. I wanted to say thank you so much, Katra. I mean, this has been amazing. I love that you're so brave to be vulnerable, and it's not always easy. We do have a little bit of a fun pick-me-up at the end. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:26

Like after all of this, with guys, yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:29

And it's not a workout.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:31

No, emotional workout.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:34

After all of this, I do always invite my guests to add some songs to our female rage playlist.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:42

I'm still very excited to hear yours because, of course, we also train with a lot of different songs. So would love to hear. What would you like to add to our female rage playlist? And you can find it on Spotify, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:52

Yeah, so I have several. I'm gonna go really quickly. Okay. So number one is Beberexa. It's called You Can't Stop the Girl. It is from a soundtrack of Maleficent, which is like my favorite. It's Disney, uh Disney cartoon movies. Yeah. Um, incredible song. I love that song, yeah. The lyrics are just bangers and they like cut my wings off so I can't fly, and they're trying to take her voices and like you um, which means that I should watch that this weekend again. Really good for this podcast. So the second one, and this is just something you need to scream. It's Joan Jett Bad Reputation. Um, because it's also super empowering as she was like the the woman in rock in men's space, essentially. And so she was like, I don't give a damn about my reputation, and it's super cool. And then I'm uh finishing with the one and only Taylor Swift. Yes, we love Taylor. I'm a huge fan. So I'm gonna name a few songs for her from her, and then just second give a couple notes. First one is The Man. Oh, yes. Super great. You know, talks about gender inequality and well, you gotta listen to it. Uh next one is Mad Woman. I don't know if you know that one. Really great. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:04

Such a good song by the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:05

But you made me like that, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:07

You made me like that, I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:08

Just like a perfection, really. Um and you know, like all of the songs, also like whatever the artist says, but you can interpret and take whatever you need from the song, right? So it's really cool. Next one is Who's Afraid of a Little Old Me from the Tortured Poets Department of Anger. Yeah. Because you know, she she's the manipulative and a crazy person, right? That's what every, you know, oftentimes we feel like we are if we are being through any toxic relationships. And I have a few more, and then I'm I promise I'm done. Actually, there's two more. Ah, no worries, no worries. I have uh the smallest man that ever lived. And if you have been in a toxic relationship, abusive relationship, then you can go and scream from the top of the lungs because this will uh this will um cover all of that. It is really, really, really, really good and relatable. And then uh the final one I have is father figure from her recent album, Life of a Showgirl. And really, I mean, she essentially really talks there about I think getting her masters back because she lost, you know, her her albums to through some shady stuff. But it really is really cool. It's kind of like she's she goes like this is actually from the song. She's like, You made a deal with the devil, turns out my dick's bigger, right? And so kind of how she won at the end, like you came to me. And so it's super empowering, like it feels cool, like you like. So like I think all of those songs are really nice. And honestly, when I started thinking about it, I could probably come up with another hundred, but those are really good. So I was like, I gotta have those.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:37

Yeah, and for our listeners, uh Catherine was just tapping her cap that she's wearing to sit today, and it says, Leave it with me, I protect the family.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:45

Yeah, so it also kind of toast to my story, so it's an interesting thing to have.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:49

But uh Absolutely. I'm also gonna add some some songs. Uh, first of all, I wanna add uh je t'accuse from Suzanne. Do you listen to French music? I don't, but I will now. I'm gonna check the page. It's really good. So this song is about um, you know, like all the women who have spoken up about what they've been through. And um, she's like, I accuse je t'accuse, I accuse you of ignoring them, like not your you don't believe them, right? So it's about this when victims aren't believed. Um very good song. Anything Suzanne does is very good. And then I wanted to add from Suzanne Vega, Luca. Do you know that song? It's a very old song. My name is Luca. I live on the second floor. I live next door to you. Yes, I know that song is so good. I know, and it's like this is literally where she talks about her experience with domestic abuse as a child. And so I think if like this is the perfect song for this feeling of no, you can't ask me about it. Like I have to, you know, like and I love that she that she turned it into a song. And then the last song is actually a German song from uh Jennifer Rostock, and it's called Hengsten. Um the idea behind the song is that um, you know, you're not just a part of the herd, but that doesn't mean that you're like a stallion, the Hengst, but you're like a stallioness, a Hengston. Like it's such a oh, I love the music video. Please check it out. Um, because in the end she's literally like a centaur um and is like a half horse, half woman. And that woman is just so powerful. I love everything she does. Uh so she definitely will be more often on our playlist. Thank you so much for for adding the songs. I love all of these songs, especially the man I listen to, at least on a weekly basis.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:50

I think it is so good.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:52

Because I'm like, yes, it would be easier if I was a man, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:56

And can can I add one thing to this one thought real quick? And I know we kind of chatted about that before we've talked about all the things, but I am raising a b son. I'm raising a boy. Yeah. So when we talk about women, I am never saying it's women versus men. No. It uh in fact, I was talking to my eight-year-old about it this morning because we talked about periods, because he knows what periods are and why it's happening. And I I wanted him to understand that women and men, we are allies to each other. It's not us against whatever, and we all have our hearts and things, and so I'm never against men. Okay. I just want to kinda say that because it comes out, you know, we talk about women and these empowering songs, but it's really how do we become allies to each other and how can men, as the str stronger physically people, how can you support and keep us safe? Yeah. And vice versa in in the ways that we can, right? So it's not us versus you, it's us together against patriarchy.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:55

Exactly. There's actually a very great example of this uh that happened in Germany now during yesterday was Father's Day in Germany. And usually that means that people go and they drink beer out in the woods, you know. Very, very German. Yes. But there was a group of men who said, let's not do that. Let's organize a protest in Berlin against uh violence against women. And so they all came together to protest and turned this day, which is like Herrentag, it's like men's day, you know? And they turned it into no, we have to protest, like we have to say something. And that's what we want to see, I think, right? Like that's that's a perfect example, Jesse. That's like true allyship.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:39

How do you show up? This is how it's not saying that you have to go protest, but just to that's a great example of that. And and you are safe. Like it's not all men, it's not all women, it's never all, right? So that is such a really, really good example. Thank you for sharing that.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:54

Yeah, exactly. And it's about you you don't have to go to protest. It's about, you know, speaking up when you hear somebody make a rape joke and like or like laugh about a rape joke. Like it's not okay, you know? Like be there in the in the small moments every day, call each other out, fight the patriarchy together. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:14

I was gonna put Taylor all too well ten-minute version. You could add it essentially here, because she says fuck the patriarchy in there, and I think for only for that it's worth it all. But nice. Um I had to add one more Taylor in here. I can't stop.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:28

There's yeah, there's never enough Taylor um on this playlist. Thank you so much, Katare, for coming today. I'm so grateful that you spoke about your story, and thank you for our listeners for tuning in and you make this possible.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:45

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:45

And remember to stay angry and stay curious.