Disintegration and How to Handle it

Dr. Joseph Howell and Lori Miller-Price talk about disintegration and what happens as people move towards the unhealthy parts of their ego types. Lori shares a personal example of feeling overwhelmed and overstressed. Dr. Howell and Lori discuss how to recognize disintegration and how to handle it in the moment.

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Transcript

[00:00] Intro: You're listening to the real Enneagram podcast, a Spiritual Quest, brought to you by the Institute for Conscious Being.

[00:11] Lori: Welcome to The Real Enneagram.

[00:14] Joe: A spiritual quest.

[00:16] Lori: I'm Lori Miller-Price. I'm part of the adjunct faculty for the ICB, the Institute for Conscious Being. And I'm here today with Dr. Joe Howell, the founder and director of the ICB. Joe, it's good to be with you as always.

[00:32] Joe: Hello, Lori, and good to be with you. 

[00:35] Lori: Yeah. To our listeners, if you've listened to other podcasts, you know that we are fortunate to have four different podcast hosts for our podcasts, and that we often have special guests as well. Joe and I have had a number of special guests with us together. But today, it's just going to be Joe and me talking. So I'm looking forward to our conversation, Joe, just like I always do.

[01:00] Joe: I am too, and I got a preview that some of this is going to be about you, Lori.

[01:07] Lori: Yeah, I decided that sharing a real life story might be something kind of helpful. I think that is really helpful sometimes. And I thought people might want to hear about... 

We talk a lot of times about all the growth with the Enneagram, and I thought talking about disintegration when we start moving to a more unhealthy parts of our ego type. And then sometimes, you know, through the number of disintegration that each ego type has, where we go during stress or grief or crisis. 

[01:41] Joe: Right. 

[01:41] Lori: So. So I thought I'd share an example today of what is an example of what happens to me sometimes when I get overwhelmed and overstressed. And then I thought maybe we could talk about how we recognize when we are disintegrating and what we can do about it in the moment.

[02:00] Joe: All right. Could you let the audience know? Lori, could you let the audience know, excuse me, what your ego type is? 

[02:08] Lori: Yeah, I definitely want to. That's part of it. I just I did wonder, is there anything that you want to say about to kind of explain disintegration a little more than what I said?

[02:20] Joe: Well, you know, in ICB, we use the original form of the Enneagram, which is what teachers of the Spirituality of the Enneagram use, and we use the arrows. When there are two arrows that are at each of the nine points and one of the arrows point to us, and if we follow that arrow or go against it, as it were, we'll end up at our point of integration. 

For example, if you're a Six, you'll see that there is an arrow pointing at your number. So you go against it, and you end up at the Nine that's at the end of the shaft. And likewise, there is an arrow that moves away from your number. So the end of the arrow is at your number and the point or arrow head ends up at your point of disintegration. 

Now your point of integration is really the antidote to your suffering, because that's where your essence is. And the essence gives us access to our true nature, and really gives us more of a transparency to the divine. But on the other hand, the arrow that goes away, or from our number, our ego number, ends up at the point of disintegration, which is not our antidote. It is actually our undoing. It is the thing that trips us up. It is the thing that creates our avoidances, our traps. It heightens our fixations, and it really gets us nowhere except deeper into our avoidances, traps, passions and fixations. 

But the thing about the point of disintegration, or some people call it the stress point, is that it looks so like the answer. It looks like ah, if I become like this or if I do think and behave like this point, then all my troubles will be gone. This will counterbalance everything that I experienced in my ego type that brings me suffering. And that's why we get into such a mess, because going with our arrow is not the best and counter intuitively going against our arrow gives us access to our spiritual selves. Did that explain it? 

[05:22] Lori: Yeah, that was great. And especially for folks that are, you know, whatever level they're at with learning about this, if they're not sure about the arrows, go and look at one of the charts. It's on the internet. It'll make so much sense to hear that. 

So I'm an Ego Type Number Two. And there's probably many of you listening that are Number Twos, because just the fact that you're listening to a podcast. Probably there's a lot of Number Twos that are listening to try to be better helpers. And in integration, I go to the healthy part of the Four, which is much more creative, artistic side of me. And then in stress, when I disintegrate, I go to the unhealthy part of the Eight, which can be the tyrant type. 

So the story is very recent. My husband Tom, who Joe knows too. Tom's also in the ICB. We had a New Year's Eve Eve party, because New Year's Eve was on a Saturday night. And with us both being pastors, we don't do parties or anything on Saturday nights. So we decided we'd have a New Year's Eve Eve. 

So it was Friday night before and we often will have friends over but usually fairly small groups. And we decided to just put a bunch of our friends together. Some of them that didn't know each other, and some that did. And we invited 20 people, and it was going to be dinner and dessert and party. And we told everybody not to bring anything. That we were just going to do. 

And so the plan for the party came out of my very healthy Two and Four, being creative and not doing it to impress people or to just want to be a helper, but really excited about it and wanting to have fun and have all of our friends together. And Tom, who's a Five and is an introvert but as a lot of our friends will say they can't believe he's an introvert because he's loves to talk, but he loves to talk to people that he's comfortable with. So having a party at our house is something he enjoys too. 

And he was especially excited because he was going to be smoking his brisket that is just fabulous. That was the main course. And it was a lot of brisket. And I had asked him ahead of time, because when Tom smokes and grills, it always takes longer than he thinks it's gonna take. And I said is this gonna be an all-day project? And he said, Well, it'll be out there all day, but I won't have to be with it all day. I'll have lots of time to be in the house still doing other stuff. I'm not gonna have to be with it the whole time. 

So I had prepared some things ahead of time earlier in the week, gotten the tables, set things like that. And the day of the party... In retrospect, I don't know what I was thinking. I worked that day too, but I left early. I came home and I only had like three hours till the party. That was the first mistake if I wanted a stress-free evening, and I come home. 

That morning, I had set the tables and I had glasses out on the counters and I was getting like... our counters in the kitchen were going to be the area where people would come and serve themselves and I was getting it all kind of set. And I came home and I knew what I needed to do. I had like three things that were going to be really quick and easy to make. 

And I come home and the kitchen's a disaster. A disaster. There's pots and pans and sauce and ingredients everywhere, and Tom comes out with the smoker and still working on the brisket. And he can't... he can't come in and he's been working all day because he's had trouble. The grill wasn't lighting right, you know, you name it. 

And so he's made all this mess because he's got rubs for the brisket first, and then a sauce goes on it. And he doesn't have time to clean up the kitchen because he's got to be out there with the brisket, and his thermometers not working right. And this stuff, it's all intermixed with the counters that I've, like, gotten ready for the party. And I was already stressed. And now I see this mess. 

And I'm like, Well, I guess I'm just gonna have to clean up the kitchen now, you know, because I need to clean up the kitchen to have space to work. And the more that I cleaned up the kitchen, the more I start going into this martyrdom, which is what Twos are great at. "I got up at 6 o'clock this morning and set the table and did... And then, I worked all day and I come home, and now I've got to clean up this kitchen." And as I'm thinking, all these things that I've had to do, the banging of my dishes that I'm cleaning are getting louder and louder, because I'm getting more and more angry, right? 

And then, I'm taking it out on my husband, who I love. And I know that he would not have left the kitchen like that. You know, if he couldn't have helped it. He is normally the one that cleans up the kitchen and does a beautiful job. And I know this in my head. And yet, I'm just getting angrier by the minute, and I'm looking at the clock, and I don't know how I'm gonna get done what I'm going to get done. And so instead of just, you know, getting to it, or finding something creative in my Number Four, to help me look at this in a different way, I just get more and more angry. 

And then as I clean more dishes, I start feeling disrespected. And that is when I know that the Eight, the Unhealthy Eight. The Eight does not like to be disrespected. Unhealthy Eight is rearing her ugly head. And I know her very well because I start feeling disrespected when what I've done isn't appreciated. And by God, you better appreciate a Number Two, or you're gonna be in trouble, right? And so I even at one point said to Tom, you love me. And so you have to love this shadow side of me too, that you're seeing right now. 

[12:24] Joe: Yeah. 

[12:25] Lori: And of course, I'm laughing about it now, because it is a funny story when I think about it, but it's not funny at the time. At the time, I'm not laughing. And in my head, I'm able to even think things like, I want us to be having fun together getting ready for this party. I want it to be light. And I'm going to be going out to the grill and like how's it coming honey? And then him come in and getting excited about our friends coming. And you know, oh, we haven't seen so and so for a while. 

And I'm thinking in my head, I can think intellectually how I want it to be. And that I don't want to be stressed, you know, when our friends get there. And I can even think you know what, there's nobody coming tonight that's going to care if everything's not cleaned up all the way. I can think all of that. But I'm still feeling the feelings that I was before. And so I can't get out of it. 

And so I start crying. And then when Tom comes in, I cry a little louder to make sure he hears me. And so finally, we hugged each other and I apologize. But I also had to tell them, I'm still angry. Like I couldn't get rid of it. I could think about it, and I could talk about it. But I still felt it. I was still angry. And in everything that's happened in the past where I felt disrespected with, you know, me having to do more than my share, it all comes back. 

You know, I was thinking about that after it happened days later, and Tom and I talked about it too. And I thought I wonder what could I do when I'm in the moment, when I'm even able to realize what's happening? Well, what can I do differently to recognize that it's starting and kind of call on the healthy parts of my Two? You know, I'm the hostess. 

That's part of the Two but again, I'm hosting good friends, and it's okay if it's not the perfect place. And the creative Four, like, wonder what I could creatively do with some of these dishes? I could stick them out on the back deck and nobody would ever know, you know. So what can I do to engage the healthier parts that I have access to through the Enneagram and keep that disintegrating Eight at bay?

[15:15] Joe: Sure. Well, thank you for being so candid about the issues. You're not only a pastor, but you also are a faculty member of ICB. You've studied the Enneagram in depth for years now. And your story is really... All have our stories that no one is immune to the visceral feelings of what our pride is, or of what our fixation is, whatever our pride is. And the passion of the Two is pride. And when somebody misuses the Two, that has an inroad into you that no other insult could have. 

When Twos feel unhonored, disrespected, unappreciated, it is especially haunts them, because it undermines the feeling that they are loved. It maybe even make them think, Oh, if I am disrespected, then I am not loved. And that brings on not only anger, but shame for the Two, because if I am not loved what's wrong with me? Am I not lovable enough? Did I not do enough for somebody else? Did I not do my part? Why would somebody want to so blatantly insult me like this? 

So, you know, join the club. I mean, all of us. All of us have this area of our ego that is really our blind spot. The blind spot is we can even be intellectually aware of that blind spot, but to be able to cope with it is a spiritual concept. But you're right, the first step in being able to cope with it is acknowledgement of what is happening. If the ego is raging, it doesn't even matter if you're aware that you are unconscious or angry or self-defeating at the time, because the ego has taken such a foothold, that you say to yourself, I don't care, this hurts so good.

[18:07] Lori: Yes, that's a good way to say it. Yeah.

[18:09] Joe: That means that the ego has really taken hold. So the spiritual treatment, when the ego has run roughshod over us and is not allowing us to listen to our soul, is that we've got to come aside. We've got to go to a inner stillness. We've got to disengage from the people and the situation that has caused what is throwing us off balance. That's very hard when you got a party and a couple of hours. Where's the time? And where is the motivation to go into your study and sit there and meditate and cogitate and evaluate. There's no time. 

So in practical matters, what do you do to deal with the fact that you cannot conduct business as normal because your ego is in control? And you did it. You allowed your partner to understand that you were helpless at that time. You know, in Alcoholics Anonymous, one of the the basic tenants is to admit that we are powerless. Okay. And that's for addiction, but you know, our egos are very addictive. And if we can look at our egos as an addiction that we're powerless over, in admitting that to another person, it completely deflates the anger and the negative emotions, and you did it. 

You poured yourself in love into your relationship with Tom, and you admitted that this was more than you could handle. Immediately, he came to you in a response that was, well that match what you needed. But if you had fought him, if you had likewise belittled him, chances are that you wouldn't have been a very good host and hostess for the party to come. Because the negative sparks between you would have been there, and you wouldn't have had a good time. And chances are people would have sensed that there was some tension between Lori and Tom. 

So instead of going inside to meditate and to reboot, you did the next best thing, which was to admit you were powerless to someone who cared about what's happening to you at the time. Now, you also still remember this story, so in your spiritual practice of meditation, of the labyrinth, of reflection, and journaling, all those things that I know that you do, you can then work on to make an internal shift regarding when somebody challenges your pride.

[22:01] Lori: Yeah, yeah, that's really helpful to think of, just because you can't address it the way you want it to at the moment doesn't mean it can't be later. And the reason that, you know, I mean, there's other stories that are, of course, similar to that, which makes sense because Tom is not disrespectful to me. And he wasn't being disrespectful to me. And so the fact that I felt disrespected was, what that says to me is, that's how deep this ego stuff is, because it's not about him.

You know, at the time, I'd like to blame... I blame him. I like to make it about him, you know, because that's easier to make it about somebody else, then look at our own stuff, right? But it's just a reminder even more how much this is part of my prideful ego. When I first learned about the Enneagram and heard that the passion of the Number Two was pride, I was like what? You know? I'm not arrogant, and then realized, yes, I am. 

Because the arrogance, the pride of the Two is thinking, I can do it all. I don't need help, but I know what everybody else needs. I mean, that's pretty arrogant. You know, that I know what everybody else needs, but I don't have any needs. Right? That was hard. That was hard to hear when I first, the very beginning.

[23:47] Joe: It's insulting. 

[23:49] Lori: Yeah, it is. Imagine that, our Ego Types are insulting. Well, look how many people don't like their ego types?

[23:59] Joe: No, they don't. Yeah. Yeah. You look at this.

[24:04] Lori: Except for Tom, he likes his. He likes his Number Five. 

[24:07] Joe: Yeah, but you have to look at your virtue of being a Two. And when you cry, not that you necessarily had to cry, but when you were honest with your emotions, instead of keeping a stiff upper lip and making him pay back for what he did, didn't do. You enacted your virtue of humility. And that is the antidote to all of our... our virtues are the antidotes to all of our passions.

[24:35] Lori: That'd be helpful to reflect some more on Two. That humility and how we think that humility is going to feel like suck it up and be hard, but it actually feels good. When I express humility, it actually feels... It's a relief. 

Because when I started saying to him, I over thought what I could get accomplished today. You know, I had too much on the plate. And I couldn't do it all. And that's a sense of humility, too. And it is a really, it's a relief. Yeah. 

[25:18] Joe: Yeah. Same. Same with me, you know, my passion is fear. And when I'm in the ego, I certainly tend to accentuate all of the things that would threaten my security, you know, in any way. Educationally, health wise, socially, financially, any in any way. 

But my virtue is courage. And courage completely displaces fear. And the more courage I can realize and manifest, the less fear plays a role in my decisions and my cognition, and in my heart. So, likewise, the more you enact humility, the less pride will be able to manifest in your life.

[26:22] Lori: So I'm thinking as you say that, that then if our listeners were wanting to apply this idea for their own number, look at what your virtue is, and then in your spiritual practice is what I hear you saying, in your spiritual practice, think about how could that virtue have spoken to you in that moment?

[26:49] Joe: And that's what you did, Lori. Humility, that's what you did with Tom. That was a very humble thing that you did.

[27:01] Lori: Well, I appreciate you saying. It didn't feel that way at the time. So it's nice to reflect on that.

[27:08] Joe: Well, you weren't going to the Eight because the Eight would have... The unhealthy Eight, which is your point of disintegration, it would have clobbered Tom over the head with one of the pans.

[27:21] Lori: Well, this think got the pans thrown…

[27:25] Joe: Yeah. But in humility, you did the opposite. You showed your tenderness and that you had been hurt. So you went right to the, unknowingly properly, you went right to the healthy side of Four.

[27:46] Lori: See, and I thought I was I thought I was at the Eight, because I was so mad. Interesting.

[27:53] Joe: Yeah, yeah. But what you did was Four. You gave the response from the heart center rather than a negative response from the gut center.

[28:06] Lori: Okay. Yeah. That's great.

[28:11] Joe: Thanks for sharing that.

[28:12] Lori: Yeah. And thank you. And I hope for our listeners, you know, this... I was hoping by just sharing kind of like an everyday thing. I mean, I think that kind of scenario can happen for lots of people. But the way you process it would be different depending on what your ego type is. And, you know, it's an opportunity for folks to pick a story from your life and take a little deeper look at it.

[28:41] Joe: And if they'd like they can, email us at therealenneagram@gmail.com I believe, isn't it?

[28:51] Lori: Well, you could get on the website, theicb.org, and email through the website. Yeah. And visit our Facebook page. And yeah, Joe is happy to be in dialogue, aren't you? 

[29:06] Joe: Yeah. Well, we can bring the questions to the podcast and really get some personal answers. We have to read names, but we can unless they don't want to.

[29:19] Lori: That's right. Yeah, we'd love to have some of your listeners' questions wouldn't we?

[29:25] Joe: That would be true.

[29:27] Lori: Well, thanks so much for being with me today, Joe, and for this good conversation. And to our listeners, thanks for listening today. We hope you're interested in learning more. You can learn more about us at the website that I mentioned theicb.org, and you can find us on Facebook. And of course we hope you're going to keep listening to our podcast, The Real Enneagram, each week as well. 

Also on the website, you can find all kinds of events to go in person and and listen to Joe Howell speak and attend the workshops and really be immersed in a fantastic program. We hope that you heard something today that sinks just a little deeper into your heart and your mind and your soul. And we hope you'll join us again soon. Thanks again for the conversation. Good to be with you, Joe.

[30:21] Joe: Thank you Lori. Bless.

[30:26] Outro: That wraps up another episode of The Real Enneagram, brought to you by the Institute for Conscious Being. If you're interested in furthering these conversations, please reach out to us through our Instagram at @therealenneagram, or if you're interested in our upcoming trainings or other resources, please visit our website, www.instituteforconsciousbeing.org. Thanks for listening