Episode 181 How Art Wimberly Integrates the Enneagram into Recovery Work

In this episode of The Real Enneagram, we had the pleasure of welcoming Art Wimberly, an adjunct faculty member of the Institute for Conscious Being and a vibrant Type 7. Art shared his journey of self-discovery, which began during a silent retreat where he stumbled upon the Enneagram through a book by Father Richard Rohr. He discussed how his initial understanding of the Enneagram was more theoretical, lacking the depth of inner work until he encountered a teacher who helped him integrate the two systems of recovery and the Enneagram.

Art opened up about his long-term recovery journey, highlighting the struggles he faced with addiction. He emphasized the importance of facing pain and how the 12-step program helped him process his experiences. This journey led him to a significant turning point in his life, where he began to embrace wisdom and the idea of a holy plan, which resonated deeply with his Type 7 nature.

We explored the integration of the Enneagram into recovery work, discussing how understanding one's type can provide valuable insights for both individuals in recovery and their loved ones. Art shared practical ways he incorporates the Enneagram into his coaching, helping clients recognize patterns and make healthier choices.

As we wrapped up, we reflected on the power of the Enneagram in revealing the unique traps and strengths of each type, particularly in the context of addiction and recovery. We encourage our listeners to explore the upcoming conferences and resources available through the Institute for Conscious Being, especially for those affected by addiction in any capacity.

Thank you for joining us today, and we hope you found Art's insights as inspiring as we did!

To learn more about the Institute for Conscious Being, visit: theicb.info

Transcript

Scott:
You are now listening to The Real Enneagram, a podcast by the Institute for Conscious Being. To learn more about the Institute and its offerings, visit theicb.info. That's T-H-E I-C-B dot I-N-F-O. And now, here are your hosts, Dr. Joe Howell and Nanette Mudiam.

Nanette: Well, welcome back to The Real Enneagram, a podcast brought to you by the Institute for Conscious Being. I'm Nanette Mudiam, and I'm here with Dr. Joseph Howell today. Hi, Dr. Joe.

Joe: Hi, Nanette, nice to be with you.

Nanette: It's nice to be with you. We're excited once again to be doing this podcast series specifically on the holy ideas and virtues of each of the types. And we've been making our way through the numbers. And today we have a really, really special guest with us, Art Wimberly. Art is an adjunct faculty member of the Institute and a really beautiful type seven that I've enjoyed getting to know in our work together. And it's been a great experience to study the Enneagram alongside Art. So, Art, say hello and tell us a little bit about yourself.

Art: Yeah. Hey, guys. Art Wimberly, turning 70 this year. Oh, wow.

Nanette: I'm hitting in at a birthday party. Sure.

Art: Which is not believable to me in any way, shape or form. I still feel like I'm about 11. But a lot of it, usually when I introduce myself, I'm in a place where I'm saying something about that I'm in long-term recovery. So I'll go ahead and throw that in. That's been a huge piece of my life and grateful to be in long-term recovery. Retired about six years ago from a 30-year career in mortgage banking. And that sounds fancy, but really what I was was a mortgage loan officer. And then later in life, I had my own mortgage brokerage business with a friend of mine and left that in order to try to do whatever it is the heck that I do now. It's pretty eclectic. I guess I would say I'm a combination of a recovery coach, an Enneagram coach, a lay counselor, It's kind of a mishmash of things that I do. So that's been my focus for about six years in which all those fields have kind of come together. And so I work with groups and with people in recovery and then with their family members or loved ones as well. Married to Carrie, as you guys know, we just came back from a 32-year anniversary celebration this week. And combined, we have five children and now nine grandchildren. So all of that keeps us pretty busy.

Nanette: But very glad to be with you guys today. Uh-huh. And all of that sounds very fun as well. Those grandkids.

Art: Yes. When the first ones were born, they explicitly told me, now this was 20 years ago. Okay. And it just so happened that there were four of them born at once. Y'all know the story. But this is before they knew I was a type seven, right? But somehow they knew that with the babies coming into our home to live, that I was worthless for nothing except fun. And so they said, look, you just stay out of the way for six months, and then we're going to really need you.

Nanette: We'll call you up when we need entertainment.

Art: Right now, just don't hurt anybody. And then when we need your energy, and your joy and your fun and your playfulness and that, then we'll call. So that's, that's kind of how it worked out.

Nanette: Well, I want to talk so much more about the recovery aspect of your work in the Enneagram. But I want to, I think I want to start with how you found the Enneagram.

Art: Okay, yeah, yeah, it's kind of kind of a small story, but it's a little interesting to me. I was on a silent retreat in North Alabama for four days. that you volunteered to go to? Yeah, I know. But I really thought I could break the rules. So I wasn't that worried. And it was really strange because the first day of the trip, I was actually going to this destination because I was asked to speak. So that was okay. But then after that, it was supposed to be silent, right? no books to read, you know, nothing to consume, right? A restricted diet, had to be quiet when you're eating and all this stuff. And so I made it really well to about three days. And on the fourth day, I cracked. And I went to on site, they have this beautiful garden, and a little bookstore, right? So somehow or another, I found myself in the bookstore. You know, I'm not supposed to be talking to anybody, I'm not supposed to be reading. And so I said, well, you know, it's the last day, surely this will work. And I was searching in the library there in the bookstore for something new and interesting, of course. And I stumbled onto a very old book by Father Richard Rohr. called From Wild Man to Wise Man. And that really appealed to me because most of my life I've been pretty wild and was trying to move toward wisdom. And now that's not one of Father Rohr's books explicitly on the Enneagram. But this was 2009. But it did, it did mention the Enneagram. And then it talked about the system a little bit. And I was just kind of, oh, wow, I need to figure this thing out, right? This is pretty cool. And so maybe like a less conscious seven, I got the system pretty quick. But and then moved on. And so while I could tell you certain truths about the system, I had not done the inner work with it yet. It's always a little bit of a dangerous thing for me. I've come to find that as a head type, maybe as a particularly as a seven, that I get concepts pretty quickly. But if I'm not careful, I don't experience them at their depth, right? There's a consumption without a processing or, you know, full digestion, if you will. And I think Joe, your book even talks about that in the type seven about the, you know, lack of kind of digesting everything. So I think I do that with a lot of things. And I did with Enneagram. So that was the introduction. A few years later, it circled back. Maybe I was more ready. for them to do the work and at a particular time and phase, a few years later, it circled back to me in a different way. And I got involved with a teacher, very deep, it just so happened also, had decades of recovery in 12-step work, was a certified, was an addiction therapist, Enneagram, I mean, just so many different influences, and began to do some of the inner work there. And so that was when it really began to take hold. It wasn't just a theory. It wasn't just rational thinking. There was this experiential part of it. And that actually was the stepping stone in those days to an intensive where there was someone from Anniston, Alabama in attendance. And over the weekend, I got to know that person. And they heard my story. And they were like, Oh, yeah, you you would you would probably benefit from Dr. Joe Howell's Enneagram and ICB. And I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. They're like, No, no, he's in Anniston. I'm like, No, I'm 45 minutes from Anniston. I would know if there was somebody. And I'm like, No, you really should. So I started that was in 2018. I started consuming everything that I could about Joe without him knowing it. And Lark and ICB, the Institute for Conscious Being and reading and finding things way out on the internet that Joe had written and like, oh my goodness, he's connected to the Christian story too. So this was really cool for me. And then it finally occurred to me, you know, I might not have called these people and see about connecting to them. And Joe Lark, I don't know if she ever told you this, but for two months, I sent the email to the wrong email address. And I kept wondering why nobody from ICB would contact me. And I was about to write you guys off, you know. And then finally, I just said, just pick up the phone and call. So I called and Lark said, oh, that's an old email. We never would have seen that. I'm like, OK, I'm glad I got it. So that started it and then got me to my first experience in Canooga. And it's just grown ever since.

Nanette: It's a beautiful experience, especially I know we've had many students who came on board in that 2018 year, especially with Canuga. And so we're so glad you came. And that is definitely one of the ways people on board with us is to come through a conference and then continue on to study with us through the intensives.

Art: Absolutely. For anybody out there that's hearing this is not familiar with all this, I would say if you can, there's a conference coming up. Please, please get I know we got one coming up.

Nanette: Yeah.

Art: And so there is one I would say yes, please try to do your best to get to one of those.

Nanette: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because you can consume a lot of books, but when you get in a room of people who have real experience with the Enneagram, there's so much to be learned. Yes. So, Art, I want you to tell me, if you will, and Joe, if you have anything, please interject, but tell me, Tell me a little bit about being a type 7 and especially, you've used this word several times, consuming, the consumption of a 7. The 7 is the bon vivant. It's kind of, if you just want to call it the partier of the Enneagram, you can also say that. But anyways, but also how, you know, what your recovery journey has been personally, you know, maybe even prior to finding the Enneagram.

Art: Yeah, and the recovery journey, the beginning of it, the most substantial part of it did predate the Enneagram, which is interesting for me because when the, then the two systems began to merge later, it was that much more powerful. I suspect it could have gone in the other direction. Enneagram first and then recovery, and it would have been as powerful. But having done the inner work of the 12 step, a lot of people don't understand that part of the hidden design of the 12 steps is to expose and then soften the ego. So right away, you're in the same mode, right? And so not that I knew that going in, but otherwise, I probably wouldn't have gone anywhere near it. But So for me, I struggled from early years with abuse of substance, but it was not in a way that I'd ever gotten that much trouble for it. I could hide it pretty well. But what I would call a co-addiction that was going along with it was sexual addiction, more of what they would call a behavioral or a process addiction, right, in the therapeutic world. And so those were kind of code. They usually went hand in hand. When I hit about 30, there was enough wreckage from the substance stuff and a new relationship that was really stable, that said, if that's part of your life, I can't be in it, then I was able to stop the abuse of the substances, right? Whether it was alcohol or marijuana or whatever. So some people listening would say, well, then you weren't a true addict in that way. And I wouldn't argue. There's spectrum, right? I think I was an abuser, a user, an over consumer, however you want to look at it. And so to be able to stop it, that way might indicate it wasn't the primary addiction. And I think that was probably true. What lasted much further and much deeper and caused more trouble, more pain was the sexual addiction. So it wasn't until I began finally to admit that that was unmanageable for me, and actually went to recovery and said it out loud, that anything really else started to change. I was successful in business, like a typical seven. Maybe you might say I was received well by most people. You know, generally people thought of me as upbeat, happy, life of the party, as we said. Oh, it'll work out. You know, the cheerleader and the if I was on a basketball court or a tennis court or whatever, I was the driving energy all the time. So from that sense, I don't think anybody would have had a clue all the stuff that was going on that I was dealing with. But when finally getting to the bottom, a breaking point where, okay, I can't go on like this, it's going to wreck everything. That was the first exposure to 12-step work. The first exposure to having to say out loud, I need help, could you help me? There's a lot of pain here, there's a lot of darkness, there's a lot of suffering that I had never dealt. And so that was kind of the turning point for me. There's a definite demarcation line in my life. There may be more than this one demarcation, but there's that definite before and after that.

Nanette: Okay. Yeah. When you were willing to stop avoiding the pain and face it.

Art: Yeah. And again, I wasn't conscious enough going into recovery to go, Oh, I know what's going to happen with this process. They're going to deal with my pain, my suffering, the darkness, all this stuff. I had no clue that was going to happen. Again, I doubt I ever would have gone anywhere near it. But thankfully, in the process, in the rooms, with people, with a sponsor over time, that was what began, that was a place I could begin to actually process all that I had consumed, right, begin to digest it in a safe place, and begin to heal from some of it. And then also to begin the process of forgiveness and amends back in the world that I had, you know, where some of the damage, where I had done a lot of damage. Yeah.

Joe: So the wisdom hit you then, didn't it? Wisdom just came and enveloped you.

Art: It did, Joe, from wild man to wise man, all of a sudden. There's a theory that when people come out of addiction, and I don't think it matters whether it's substance or behavior necessarily, there is a theory, and I've seen it, that oftentimes when that happens, there is a release of pent up spiritual energy. that has been subdued by, I'm not talking about religious energy, I'm talking about spiritual energy, right? Because I was as religious as, I did more work in church. I'm a seven. I'm a seven. I was ahead of this. I ran that. It's just for fun. I'd go do that. And you need somebody to do that. I would do that. Right. And I think a lot of it was an unconscious way of outrunning the pain and outrunning the shame. Right. Right. All that stuff. But you're right. There was a release all of a sudden of pent up spiritual energy and a lot of it was wisdom. Yeah.

Nanette: It's so interesting to me to how I noticed, Art, you kind of differentiated your work in recovery versus your work in the Enneagram and definitely how they came together. But I think maybe they're always the same. I've observed this if you look at people who do what we would call spiritual work. Whether they work with the Enneagram or not, they're doing the work of the Enneagram. If you go back and overlay the map over their story, you can see how you can plot the journey. And I thank you for doing the work all along. You just came to a time where you could finally point it out on a map.

Art: True. And then the additional thing about the Enneagram that's so helpful to me, and I see it, I think, helpful with other individuals in recovery, especially, is then you get into this unique specificity about the unique traps that the types get into, right? And the wiring, but it also reveals, wow, all this high side essence that was part of my making that had been either overused or distorted, right, in the ego, where the Enneagram really, to put the two systems together, whether it's 12-step or other types of recovery, when you merge those things to me, it's just like putting the inner work on steroids. There's just so much more specific wisdom that the Enneagram can reveal to an individual or to someone helping individuals that meshes with the other practical work. It's just, wow. I don't know. To me, it's like if I had my druthers, I mean, that's what I would talk about every day with people, try to show them how to connect this.

Joe: And it's interesting, Art, that wisdom is the first part of your holy idea.

Art: Yes. Yeah. Wild man to wise man. So that release there, the idea that a type seven, one of the holy idea, it always gets me as a seven that you got, you know, more than one holy idea because part of me likes that because I'm not restricted. Part of me is like, wait, wait, you know, let's, let's get, let's get this down to one so we can focus. Right. But yeah, this idea of holy wisdom, that the divine would plant this for nurturing. And once the addiction was out of the way, a lot of that got released, right? And I love the whole concept, holy wisdom, holy plan, holy work. And in your book, Joe, the first book, There's a sentence that always sticks out to me, the seven fears the absence of a plan. I can tell you from an early age, one of the very few things I can remember as kind of a message. or maybe I couldn't tell you where it came from. I don't remember. I don't believe anybody ever tried to tell me. But there was a sense in my life that there was there was probably this beautiful big plan somewhere, but that I didn't fit into it. I don't know where it came from. I don't know why that was there. And it never occurred to me to tell anybody. I mean, it's like, ah, it'll work out. Why would you tell anybody? But there was this sense in me from an early age that I think there is a beautiful plan out there. I think it's a big plan. But I don't fit. I don't qualify. But basically, I think something in me said, Oh, well, we'll just keep going, right? Go along to get along and just keep going. So when I began to do even more than the 12, I love the 12 step itself, because it's beginning to say, having had a spiritual experience, then we try to share this with other people, right? And we begin to practice these new principles in every part of our life. So it's going out and sharing what's been brought up in you, right? But then to come to the Enneagram and then to find out, yep, Type 7, but then to see a holy plant. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, yeah, it was with me all along. But for some reason, I thought, I didn't fit. So the paradox with the holy fearing the plan is we're always planning, right? So unconscious all my life, always into the future, even if it's 30 minutes, or an hour a day, right? Always planning the imitation of the holy plan. I got to push it. I got to push it. I got to push it. The imitation. Yes, the imitation. And I, I don't know, it was it took me until I never realized how anxious I was, that I was doing that, that I kind of felt it. But it was just under the skin all the time. But again, outwardly, there would be nobody that knew me that would meet me. They would have said that arts an anxious person, or he's scared, or he's fearful, they would have thought the exact opposite. And I don't think I ever set out consciously to make anybody think that.

Nanette: I find it so interesting in the Type 7s I know that the point of integration, of course, for a Type 7 is a Type 5, which is, at first glance, seems like the absolute antithesis of any Type 7 you know, and certainly not something that they would aspire to because it sounds sober and boring and unappealing, and obviously not in keeping with their desire to avoid pain. So can you talk about integration for you and what that has looked like in discovering your own soul at a type five?

Art: Yeah, I'll tell you what the key for me has been. is the simple word or dynamic focus. Focus. Okay. Because we talked about consumption, fives and seven have that in common, right? In a way, it's just that fives tend to be more toward knowledge, perhaps, or mastery of a subject or that type of thing. So we we kind of got that in common, in a way. But the cool thing for me or the thing that has emerged for me over the years with Soul Child at Five is the focus. That's what I typically lack most of the time was a consistent focus. Just like the story of being introduced to the Enneagram, getting the system down, but not focusing deeply enough to actually get the real blessing. and the deeper benefit from transformation by doing the inner work, right? Well, one of the things a healthy body can do is consume a lot but then focus. Interesting. So for me, I can see now when I'm willing to focus, then much more good comes from that. I carry this phrase around, I don't even know where I got it. If I'm over consuming, I'm probably under creating. If I'm over consuming, I'm probably under creating. It doesn't mean I might not be imitating creative stuff. Again, Joe's language, you know, imitation, right? It looks creative in a way because I'm doing a lot of stuff, you know, but If I'm over, because I look back at my life when I'm over consuming, whether it's yesterday or 20 years ago, I'm imitating creative stuff, usually. And the deepest of creations not coming because I'm, I'm consuming way too much to really get the fruit of the creativity. So the fives ability to focus and choose to take what they already know and really drill that down and focus to get it down to its essence where it's usable. That so much appeals to me now. And so the five doesn't seem drab or boring. That's some, you know, one of my best friends is a five.

Nanette: Mm hmm.

Art: Yeah. And long, maybe just because they'll indulge me in long conversations about the Enneagram or recovery, whatever, but they can go so deep so quickly. And so they draw me in with energy, but then they can also remind me where to stop and focus to make that creative in my life or in the world.

Nanette: Mm-hmm. Joe was recently making a point that I overheard him say that, of course, our motivations at those numbers are different, you know, that your motivation at type 5 is different than an ego type 5. So can you kind of draw a comparison in that, Joe, what Art's motivation is in getting to that point at 5?

Joe: Well, knowing art really helps because in our discussions, art and when we talk, when you're coming from your soul, from five, you are deeply focused and reflective. And what you have to say has tremendous depth. There is no skimming the surface. But when you are in ego, you tend to want to cover so much territory for the good of everybody that you don't have the depth that you do when you're settled and when you're coming from 0.5 soul, soul child. I don't know if that observation resonates or not.

Art: Absolutely. Again, whether it's yesterday or when I look back on life, that proves true. It's not just a theory. I could see that all the time. And then the scatteredness is I need to scattershot everybody with everything. Yes.

Nanette: Right? Yeah.

Art: Yeah. The story Kerry tells is, in the home we used to live in many, many years when we first got married, there was a small quiet room with two chairs. And it was supposed to be the quiet area. And so I get up really early. And I'd go in and I'd sit in that chair. But guess what I was doing? I'm consuming. Okay, whether it's coffee or C.S. Lewis, or whatever, I'm consuming. So, well, maybe it's an hour later, maybe it's two hours later, Carrie gets up and she comes to the room and she looks in the door. She stands at the threshold. She looks at me with her sleepy eyes and her little cup of coffee and her bunny slippers. And she says, Hey, I really want to come in there and sit with you. But if you're going to quote from C.S. Lewis, I can't do it. And this, so yeah, she was like, I can't take all the words this early about so many different subjects, right? Now then you can say, well, that's funny. That's a dynamic between a husband and a wife. Yeah, yeah. But what you pointed out, that's the way I tend to try to live life, right? I need to get as many words out as I can about as many subjects as I can to keep everything on a high note and keep everybody here. so that we can be connected.

Joe: Yes. The motivation is good, but it's not as deep and soulful. Yes, absolutely.

Nanette: And what's amazing is that the impact that you achieve out of being soulful is far greater. Because all the sevens I know, when they drop into that soul where there's real depth, the power of what they say is so heightened. It's just the wisdom that you guys can bring out just through the amalgamation of your own ego type in that five space. I have been very impacted by the Type 7s. I know who've done that. And you can tell when they spend that time in the quiet room, actually quiet, you know, when they have found something. So, I mean, the impact that your type can have on the earth is just really big. And so it's, I know that that's what you're doing in recovery. If you would just tell us, we just have just a few minutes, but I want you to talk about just for just a minute about how you've been bringing in the Enneagram into the recovery work that you're doing. Because I know there's a lot of people out there struggling with family members, with children who are suffering from addiction, and it's an overwhelming feeling for those. So how is the Enneagram helping with that?

Art: Yeah, great question. There are several ways in which I try to do it. Sometimes, and Joe taught me this a long time ago, sometimes you're sitting with somebody and you don't even mention the Enneagram or types or anything else. You can still use it without overwhelming them and introducing to a new system right away. And Joe, you taught me that in a meeting at Citi we had one time, and I've tried to hold on to that. But more formally, sometimes what I'm doing with let's say it's the person who is in recovery, or wants to be in recovery, then I usually will if they're if they're not in crisis mode, right? They got to be, we got to be some somewhat stable a little bit. Yeah. Then I will ask them to let me introduce this to them, and then see if we can locate the space, the energy, the time. And I point out to them why that's going to be helpful over time. And then I try to apply that to whatever recovery system works for them, whether it's a 12-step type of a system, or a smart recovery, or, you know, something else altogether. I try to then merge those systems together with them to give them the same insight that I think I've been receiving over the years about the specificity of what their type and their center and maybe even their instinct has been driving them to do over and over again, thinking they're going to get a different result. Right. So we'll do it. A lot of times there'll be written homework based on whatever recovery mode they're in. with how do we how do we bring that your enneagram type or center into play with that? Where is where does that give them help? Where where can they see? Oh, that blocks me. My tendency has always been to do this. Right. So that's a big part of it. If it's a family member or a loved one, I can do the same thing with that. I've got some folks coming to see me this week. Don't struggle with addiction, but they have a loved one. that has a horrible struggle, and it's just about ruined their life. And in the last year or so, as they've done their work, they've been able to do some things differently, set some boundaries, but still stay attached or attached in a healthier way. And now they're to the phase where the person is coming out of rehab, is in a halfway house, and now they've got to make some decisions, right? And one of the surprising things for family members is, guess what? When somebody's actually getting better, your choices can become more complicated. And they don't expect that. They think when my loved one's getting better, oh, it's simpler. And I'm like, not always. Sometimes your choices get a little bit more complicated, because you've been trying to figure out how to be a healthy helper, not an enabler. You've done really well, they've gotten better. But now you got to make some new decisions about how much further, how much longer do I continue this? Do I stop doing that? do I add this? And then how do I deliver the news? Right? So I'll use their Enneagram type, I'll get them working on them. And let's see where that gets in the way, but where can it help? Right? Yeah. Does that answer your question?

Nanette: Oh, yeah, definitely. And it's something that I just think is really important, and I know that Dr. Joe would agree.

Joe: Yeah, well, I mean, for those listening who love the Enneagram and want to study it with the Institute, And if they are interested in addiction from any of the angles, Art covers that part of their study if they're so interested in a program within ICB.

Nanette: Yes. So that's a win-win. Encourage and invite people who have this particular need in their life. As we said, whether it is personal or whether it is a family member or someone, how they are being impacted by addiction, if this is a particular interest, then ART is on staff with us to help support them and address that specifically. And we're really grateful for that because I think this is a powerful tool in helping people to find recovery. So thank you, ART, for bringing that to us.

Art: Well, thank y'all, the encouragement to develop something like that. And then to do what we did at St. Stephen's a year and a half ago, and then to kind of add it in as a layer during the scholars program. I just really appreciate your encouragement, how y'all made that happen. And I think we're beginning to see some fruit from that.

Nanette: And the St. Stephen's was basically a conference specifically for people struggling with addiction on the Enneagram. So this is definitely something that we all, I think everybody's life is impacted by in some way or another in this day and time, unfortunately. And of course, with the struggles of mental health and addiction that we see widespread in our society, it's something that we can all find support in and this.

Art: Yeah, and the reminder for me is always to we covered the person struggling with addiction or in recovery, their loved ones. But that reminder that there are people out there that are helpers, right? Yeah, therapists, counselors, pastors, sponsors, they can become allies. So I would love to see as many people before I die as possible that are helpers. right? Be able to grasp the two systems as well. Yeah. Yes.

Nanette: Well, I just honor you, Art, and thank you for doing the work. Thank you for doing the work to get to your soul child and that deep place of wisdom that you offer our, not only our staff and our students, but all those listening to the podcast today. Thank you so much.

Art: Thank you so much, Art. Thank you. Love you guys so much. Thanks for having me on.

Nanette: Yeah, we feel the same.

Scott: Thank you for listening to The Real Enneagram, a podcast by the Institute for Conscious Being. To learn more about the Institute and its offerings, visit theicb.info. That's T-H-E I-C-B dot I-N-F-O. The music for today's podcast was composed and performed by ICB faculty member Drexel Rayford.

Nanette: Thanks for listening today. We hope you liked what you heard. If you did, please subscribe, leave a review, and share this with your friends and family.