Episode 192 Laughter, Love, and Liberation: Kate Finlayson's Transformative Path

In this episode of The Real Enneagram, we had the pleasure of speaking with Kate Finlayson, actor, and creator of Dancing the Enneagram and UnDance. Kate shared her transformative journey, which began in Hollywood as an actor and evolved through her experiences with the Enneagram, Nia, dance, and various healing practices.

Kate recounted her introduction to the Enneagram in 1996 and how it profoundly impacted her relationships. She emphasized the importance of integrating physical movement and music with the Enneagram types, which she now teaches through her unique dance movement classes called UnDance. These classes focus on helping individuals connect with their bodies and emotions, allowing for a deeper experience of their authentic selves.

Throughout our conversation, Kate reflected on her healing journey, discussing the challenges of chronic pain and how movement has played a crucial role in her recovery. She highlighted the significance of being present in the body and the balance between the head, heart, and body centers of intelligence in the Enneagram.

We also explored the evolution of Kate's acting career, noting how her approach to theater has changed since embracing the Enneagram and embodiment practices. She now experiences a greater sense of freedom and connection with her audience, focusing on the joy of sharing stories rather than seeking validation.

Kate's insights into the Enneagram, healing, and the power of movement were both inspiring and enlightening. We are grateful for her presence and the wisdom she shared, and we look forward to having her back on the podcast in the future.

Thank you for joining us today, and we hope you found this episode as enriching as we did!

To learn more about Kate and her offerings, including Dancing the Enneagram and UnDance, visit: katefinlayson.com

To learn more about the Institute for Conscious Being, visit: theicb.info

Transcript

Scott:
You are now listening to The Real Enneagram, a podcast by the Institute for Conscious Being. To learn more about the Institute and its offerings, visit theicb.info. That's T-H-E I-C-B dot I-N-F-O.

Nanette: Well, welcome back to The Real Enneagram, a podcast brought to you by the Institute for Conscious Being. I'm Nanette Mudiam and I'm here with Scott Smith today and we are missing our own Dr. Joseph Howell.

Scott: We are.

Nanette: Dr. Howell is at a conference today, speaking about our work and leading participants in that and so we're excited for that, but we will be missing him today. We have some extra energy in our space today that we're super excited about and looking forward to speaking. We're excited to have with us today Kate Finlayson, and she is the author and creator of Dancing the Enneagram. And she joined us in an intensive about three years ago. I can't wait to talk to her because I had a transformational experience during that intensive. It left a mark in my soul that will always be there. So thank you so much, Kate. Welcome to our podcast.

Kate: Oh, you're so welcome, Nanette. And I just love hearing that. I love hearing it when something that I love and am passionate about can affect somebody that can be an epiphany or a change or a shift that helps heal their soul.

Nanette: And that was not a unique experience for me. That was really every person who participated in that intensive. We all still refer to our experience with you. So really, I know our participants in the Institute are super excited to hear you today. So tell us a little bit about your background, about what you do day to day, Kate.

Kate: My background is I'm a lifelong seeker of healing. I was in Hollywood for 10 years as an actor. I survived an abusive early marriage in Texas. I came to the Enneagram in 1996. My husband did a Richard Rohr retreat and brought home a book. I thought it was fascinating, but I wasn't at the place where I could really deeply go there. And then in 20, it was 2012, I did a workshop in Louisiana, and learned my type and just had a real breakthrough with my marriage in my relationship, and then started training with the Enneagram in 2014. at the Enneagram Institute and worked with Russ Hudson for many years. And that's really what started that journey for me in integrating the physical movement and music with the Enneagram types, which is what you experienced in that workshop. And day to day now, I teach dance movement classes to help people become more embodied and more connected to their body, heart and heads. And I do that three to four times a week with one online class. And I call it undance because it's untangling from all of the The stuff that we think we're supposed to be, and what our ego tells us, and just undoing, unwinding, untangling from cultural lies, basically, into our authenticity and our true, as Joe would call it, our solality, our true authentic self.

Nanette: So was dancing always a part of your acting career? How did you, were those connected for you or did that come from someplace else?

Kate: I think I always loved dancing as a child. And I think when I was in Hollywood, that's when I started going to 12 step and I was in Al-Anon and I would see people bring in stuffed animals to their Al-Anon and adult children of alcoholics meetings and I would poo poo it and judge it. And years later in therapy, my lamb chop came to me and I forgave myself for all the judging because I was just afraid I couldn't connect to my inner child back then. But that for me really connecting to her I can't even remember what the question was, but… How did dancing start to be your expression? This is a great story. In the 90s, I had a frozen shoulder, but I loved watching the X-Files, and I loved the music, the opening music, and I would put my Lamb Chop puppet on, and Lamb Chop would dance. Just automatically, the puppet would start dancing.

Nanette: Literally, Kate has in her hand right now a little Lamb Chop puppet. puppet. And if you don't know who that is, that was a PBS character, probably in the early 2000s. I know my kids watched it when they were kids.

Kate: It was actually in the early 90s. Okay. But I knew her in the in the 1950s. But she came back. And so that was part of me reclaiming that part of myself. But in that movement, I learned that I was actually healing by moving my frozen shoulder and moving it in that way. It actually gave it relief. So in some ways, I didn't know that that's what I was doing. But my body, I'd become very inactive during that period of my life because everything hurt. I had chronic pain. And when I started dancing, I discovered a method called Nia. And I started dancing regularly when I was age 50. And from that point on, the releasing that started happening and the connection that I started feeling my body, I'd done yoga years before. And I think that was the first time I'd ever really felt like I was in my body. And I would cry a lot in yoga class. And gratefully, my yoga teacher told me that was normal. And it led me on this, you know, I guess my lifelong journey to be truly complete and whole, I had to feel my body. And with a lot of memories and a lot of painful stuff that needed to be addressed and healed.

Nanette: So were you dancing in an exercise class or just you started at home? What is Nia?

Kate: What is Nia, Kate? Well, I'll tell you, I took jazz when I was in Hollywood because just in case, you know, but I wasn't really connected to it. And I think what happened, Nia is a exercise class, a fitness fusion of dance, martial arts, and healing techniques like yoga and Alexander technique. And that is what opened me up to this idea of what I feel is okay, right? I can express that, like I'm a Broadway actress on, you know, on the stage, but I can also express it like a fierce animal. You know, like flying and playing with martial arts moves, and also the gentle wave and the connection to nature of Tai Chi. So all of these different aspects, nine different movement forms that integrated the creators made it into Nia. That's what I felt about the nine different types in the Enneagram. So that's sort of how the Enneagram, dancing the Enneagram came to be from that. But I became a trainer in that and helped people become teachers in that technique as well. And I did that for 20 years.

Nanette: And so out of that, when the Enneagram came back to you in, say, 2014, you recognize that there was a connection of wisdom here that you could articulate.

Kate: Yes, immediately I was sitting there in a chair. And learning about the Enneagram, watching her do all of the drawings, and I'm going, I want to move this. She's telling me this is of the body, and my body wanted to move it. And at the end, she played music for each type. And I asked her, can I go in the back and dance? And she let me. She didn't say no. Okay, so I just went behind everybody. And I was feeling the energies of each type, because the music they had chosen was very different for each type. And I remember feeling all of those different aspects. that I felt like this is part of how I feel because I've embodied these different energies, these different things that make me feel whole. And so it makes sense that you would move this rather than sit there and learn it through the cognitive and take notes because I'm a big note taker. I love writing everything down. and highlighting my books, and I love that, but I also need to get it in the cells of my body. That's just a longing now, that from chronic pain in my 40s to knowing I don't want to live that way, and that feeling of stuck energy and disconnected, like a head disconnected from a body, that I couldn't do that anymore. And I think the Enneagram, interestingly, was a way where all of a sudden, Everything that i learned through therapy all of my studies my spiritual journey. My actor my nature lover my everything came together and integrated so that when i started creating my own sort of classes i was finally free to just. really use the soul of myself to create the choreography, to create the themes, and to invite people to go to that place. that I feel like is so sacred, so freeing, so alive. When I'm in it, it feels like that must be the most authentic, freest, most whole being that I can be in those moments. And it's not all the time, unfortunately. It's one day at a time. But it's dancing and being in nature allows me to tap into that part of myself where I can be still

Nanette: in the natural world and listen and be you you seem so energetic and you you're an egotype 7 by by your own declaration and you know we know that energetically that there are some higher energy egos in the Enneagram, the 7, the 8, the 3, we would call those the aggressive types maybe. I'll say assertive. Assertive. Assertive may be a better word, sorry. I'll give 8 the aggressive. Flap both wings. I love it. But, you know, if we think about you in traveling the pathway, the map of the Enneagram and the centers of intelligence, it takes a few steps for you to get to the body in your integration. Did you find that that was difficult? Because it seems you make it seem so easy. Am I right, Scott?

Scott: Oh, yeah. So easy. So natural is the word.

Nanette: Natural is probably a better word. Yes. Y'all help me. I don't have the perfect words today. Aggressive and easy. Oh, no, no.

Kate: And many people will find me aggressive. I remember a teacher, somebody told me one time, a nicer way to say aggressive is assortive. Maybe we can say that along the way. Absolutely. I totally understand what you're saying. And thank you for saying it. I feel that the journey from my head to my heart was being an actor, was becoming an actor and being challenged in acting class to be vulnerable and to show my feelings, you know, to be authentically connected to all these different emotions, to play these different characters. And the therapist that was vital in me really becoming, coming to heal deep childhood wounding said that that was part of my intellectual genius, my head genius, right? That I figured out a way that I could feel my emotions by becoming an actor. And so that phase of my life was, for me, opening into the heart center, you know, becoming and and I really feel like I'd been an athlete. I played sports. I always loved dancing. So I was physical, but I wasn't really there. You know, my brain was moving. And I think that's just the energy of the seven, right? I had that energy, that feeling of really being present. I remember being on stage in an acting class and that feeling of being another person and how that felt in my body. And I remember how it felt easier to not be me, that I could be this other person feeling all these things and being in this body. that was easier than being myself and being in my own body and being present to my own self, my own authenticity. It was a step. It was like, I'm feeling things deeper now. I'm feeling more empathy and more connection to other people. And I remember being in Hollywood, meeting a young woman who did volunteer work. And I said, Why do you do that? You don't get paid. Like I couldn't That was a new feeling for me. And I remember I wanted that I remember I want to be like Carol Burnett someday and open up a, you know, a home to help people that are misguided or are lost, you know, like, I saw that as something I could do, and I understand that the social instinct of the seven actually is more like a two, kind of acts like a two. So I don't know if that's what was happening. But I feel like the more I felt, the more I could feel my feelings and open my heart that that was going to help me heal better, that was going to help me feel better than I did, help me adjust better in life, rather than constantly, you know, so classically seven, but always looking for the next thing, the next role, or the next party, or the next man, or do you know what I mean? Something in the future, something not now.

Nanette: Oh, yeah.

Scott: too clever, but would you call it the difference between dancing away from the feelings and dancing into the feelings?

Kate: Oh, Scott, you're so brilliant. Yes, and that's it. I was dancing out and away and acting at least gave me that little pocket of safety that I could play with this. I always think of like your emotions are like different colors. That's why I use the rainbow chakra colors in my dancing, the Enneagram, but it is like this template of all these colors. and that we can acknowledge that I feel this or I feel that, and at the same time, be able to access all these other emotions. I love that about laughing yoga, because laughing yoga, they say, if you don't feel like laughing, just say, ha, ha, ha, ho, ho, ho. And what always happens in those classes is you end up laughing because it sounds so ridiculous. It's the literal fake it till you make it. It is fake it. And that's in my classes, my invitation to everybody is to play with all these different things. And there's no judgment, you know, there's no comparing or competing for anything. It's just, let me explore that. That safety, I think what I found in acting, that safety. I can be in these feelings because I'm somebody else, but at least I'm really feeling them. And that came across as authentic, that at least there's something there I know that's real, that's more than me. And that's where the spirituality aspect of the Enneagram was so important, that missing link. It was so much more. And in 2014, in my 50s, I was finally ready to go there, to go deeper with my ego, to go deeper with this truth. And I think when I discovered yoga, like in the early 90s, and then into the Nia dancing, that was finally, I'm in my body and I'm feeling my own somatic pain, maybe even epigenetic pain that has been stuck and frozen inside of me. And I could understand why people don't ever want to go that deep because that's not easy. But I would feel relief after yoga class lying in Shavasana. I would feel It took years before I could actually do dead man's pose at the end of yoga because I was like, it's too long. How did people, what are they doing? Are they sleeping? I couldn't do it. But when I first did it, my husband called it a yoga asm. And he said, wow, that place and I didn't know what it was. And I remember the first time I could feel it. It was complete total surrender. It was amazing. And I'm like, there's something in this. I didn't even know about the Enneagram and where my integration point was calling me into that stillness. I didn't know that then, but I knew this was a new feeling. This was a new sensation in my body that I'd never felt before.

Nanette: As you've done this work and as you created this dancing the Enneagram, and we know as we move through the map of the Enneagram, that you move through the centers of intelligence. And so the body, the heart and the mind, and I've heard you reference all of them in different ways. It seems like you have found real balance in your own life and experience and practice in the centers. Can you talk about that? Because we are really cerebral society for the most part, right? We live in our heads, no matter which type we are very often. And we discount the heart, we discount the body. And most of us are living out of balance in our centers. Can you give some wisdom and how you find balance in that?

Kate: You know, I think there's a lot of ways. I long for more. And so when you say that, thank you. I do know that how my life is played out when the yoga and then the dancing came and the dancing really allowed. I think the yoga got me into the body. But what the dancing did was begin to integrate. Right. It integrated my mental creativity. How I vision something and I would do choreography and create that. how I would feel and all the emotions that would play through the music. And then integrating in that into actual feeling the sensations in my body, connect to the music, connect to the feelings, connect to the actual movement that I was doing with my body. Because everything that we do has a different feel to it. Every way we move, we move I mean, it creates a different energy and it stimulates the brain. It's wonderful to stimulate the brain. So I really believe that by me having a job, so to speak, that allows me to do this and share it with people over the years has been incredibly helpful in integrating those three centers. It wouldn't be fully complete without all the work I did working with Russ Hudson and doing the Gurdjieff movement and learning from him during those years. And certainly what I learned at ICB, the two times that I was there that I got to take the different classes, because Joe has a really unique way of sharing it. And it really resonated with that spiritual part of me, as well as learning about Philip Shepard's embodiment work and the breath work. I feel like that has really helped me connect more to that still contemplative soul child inside of me, my five. And I think that integration of being able to sit and breathe fully into my pelvic bowl and not be afraid to be present to that part of myself. has really helped me deepen every aspect of all of my dancing. When I'm birding in nature, you know, in this time of year right now, all the migrants have arrived and I'm, you know, just to hold me back when I hear a new one singing its song, I want to go see it, you know, that part of me I feel like has gone another level with the breath work. It's like taking me to a deeper level of embodiment, but all the steps along the way. I long to be to feel that level of integration, but I really appreciate these questions because I think it I forget sometimes and I can be hard on myself like I haven't done enough or I'm not doing this. And you're making me realize, thank you, really, that a lot of the work, what I've been doing is integrating. And I think about the body, the heart, and the head. That part of the Enneagram when I first learned it, I just loved that. In yoga, it was the body-mind, learning that there's, we integrate the body-mind. And in Niya, it was body-mind, spirit and emotion. And so I got to have all of those things, body-mind, spirit and emotion, right? There's these four different realms of, but what the Enneagram, and then I feel like taking the Enneagram, it just is so logical. Like the logical part of my brain goes, this makes absolute and total sense. Like, this is the disconnect because we are living in our heads. Philip Shepard, seeing him at that ICB conference, It's like, oh my God, I've never thought about it in this way, but that's exactly what I feel. That's exactly what I sense. That's exactly what I think. I think it, I feel it, and I sense it. So it like all logically was like, this is the next level of how to be more present, to be a better listener. to be still, to find that focus of type five, it's always been your biggest challenge from my distracted chaos into that level of just being there. And I'm so grateful. I am just so grateful. And had I not gone to, you know, presented to the ICB, I wouldn't have met Scott. And he kind of helped encourage me to do some of Phillip's work online. And I just think it's, all of this comes together to help me be number one, a better teacher, a better guide, Because sometimes I go, I don't know if I'm teaching anything, but I'm, I'm guiding, you know, I'm guiding the experience, and I'm allowing people to discover it more for themselves. And I think teaching a particular technique, there's always that pressure that it needs to be this. Now, when I teach, I'm free to just allow what comes through and trust that in that wholeness of what I feel in that not driven by my ego, not driven by a need, because that's really strong. And it's, it's, it's the part that I have to recognize all the time, that I simply am inviting them, there is no guarantee of Anybody learning anything or teaching anything. Do you know what I mean? And then to be able to let go of that and just allow people to have their own kind of experience. Thanks to the Enneagram and me recognizing that, that has helped me find more authentic freedom. And that thing of looking for, well, why am I alive? And what have I given back to society? And what have I accomplished? And where is my success? Do you know what I mean? I don't know if y'all have that.

Scott: Yeah, yeah, I've got that.

Nanette: I think we both, I think we all do. I mean, it's so, it's so interesting to me to, to hear you say, and just that human struggle of, have I done anything? Have I done the work? Have you, you said earlier, you know, you've spent your whole adult life working on your childhood. And I think, I mean, I think anyone who does any sort of therapy, spiritual, mental work in their life, it feels the same. It's amazing, you know, that we have a universal struggle normally with where we came from. And have we done the work? Honestly, quite a lot of people, you know, not as a judgment, but a lot of us are asleep. You know, it's why we, we have the struggles in the planet that we have, right? Because there we haven't done the work. And I think now. more than ever, we realize that no matter how small the groundswell feels, that we have to participate in the healing of our world, in raising consciousness, which is why, you know, the Institute makes the efforts that we make, no matter how small we might feel that effort might be, but the earth needs us to do this work. So tell me, Kate, how do you know your soul and how do you think that impacts those that you do guide? What are the daily practices that help you know your soul?

Kate: I'm going to use an excuse. Because I'm a seven, I like it to be variety, so I don't do the exact things every day. To be honest, because I'm semi-retired, it allows me to have time to just let What does my body need? What does my soul need? What does my heart need? Because it does change for me from day to day. But I will say doing the breath work and doing some of the practices with the breath work helps me center and come to that place of peace and calm. Dancing, just putting on a song and just moving and letting my joints warm up to that can definitely just like bring me back to life. Doing my physical therapy that I do for my hip bursitis and my knees and you know, coming into that, you see the ball and I use that for different things. Just walking outside and feeling the bird feeder and then sitting and just listening. These are the things that bring me back. I read, I will read, you know, the Martin Nepo awakening book and just do the devotion. And I don't do it every day. Again, I used to go, you have to do this same thing. And I just, it doesn't, that's my one. And I go, nope. So I really, sometimes I'll just be with my cat and I call it luxury kitty and I'll just stay with him and just exchange the energy in my petting of him until he can't take it anymore and then he leaves. But I think it's being open to all the different ways I can find presence. One of my favorite ways is walking down to the pond with my husband and just sitting. In COVID, I took two plastic chairs down there. I would never go down there because I was like, too many snakes. I don't want to go down there. I don't want to bother the animals. And then it was like during COVID, it's like, I'm going to go have a relationship with this pond that I've lived on for 25 years. And I go down there and we just sit, and we just watch and we listen. And sometimes we're there for an hour, sometimes 10 minutes, you know, it just depends. But that has become a real practice of receiving, I think, receptivity of just being present. whatever it is. And sometimes I'm like, I didn't see many birds or, oh my God, there's a beaver. Can you believe it? Or an otter. And I mean, sometimes we get the most amazing, an eagle flying through. I mean, it's pretty amazing. Bats. I mean, some of the things we've seen, we never would have seen. And it's like, I'm in a nature, you know, I'm watching a nature show and I'm just sitting here in stillness and quiet, just receiving what comes. I think sometimes just putting on my Lamb Chop puppet and I'll be in anguish over politics or something and sometimes Lamb Chop will just tell me advice. Sometimes my husband puts Lamb Chop on and he gives me advice too. But it's all good. And now I'm reading Joe's book. That becomes something I give myself. And I take notes. I love taking notes. I'm using highlighters. And what I usually do is bring that into my class. In some way, I'll bring something that I learned that's helped me. and integrate that into movement into a theme of what I'm working on. And what I love about the Enneagram, because it is the three centers of intelligence, there's always a way and all of the qualities that we have, that we want to embrace that are positive and healthy. I've really learned the difference between authentic spiritual growth and spiritual bypassing. And I think there's nothing like our whole democracy blowing up to learn there are ways I want to just go away and pretend like this isn't happening. And can I be present to the horror? And I really loved reading Joe's newsletter. A lot of the stuff he says is helping me, but it's how do I stay present to that, still feel my wholeness in my integration of all of this? without slipping up and out in a way and, you know, escaping the pain of this, because it's really difficult. And I think it's being in action, like I marched at the Hands Off event in the little town I live in. 5,000 people, there were 1,000. 1,000 people came to Pittsburgh's Hands Off. That's a way that I can use my energy in a way that, number one, just to holler with a big group of people and sing. If I were a hammer with a thousand people, I mean, that connection that I feel, that is powerful. A new woman just came to my class, and she shared some beautiful things about herself. And I watched her, she did it correctly. She's struggling with movement, but she just moved how it felt good to her. And she was glowing at the end of class. Those are the things that's like, okay, this is part of it. And there's no real answer. But this is helping her get through what's going on, because there are a lot of people that are in high anxiety. And I'm not going to ignore that. I'm going to bring it as much as I can without going into getting massively political. But I can sense that I'm getting through this a little easier than some of my friends. and my students. And so if I can bring some of that grounding and strength and wholeness to them, then that's a way that I'm helping the world, if you will. And I don't know, but it feels that way. It feels like, all right, I'm in the right place now. This is good. That's as much as I can handle right now. And I do a lot of different kind of volunteering and different work But I realized part of being the soul being in my soul and what's calling me is allowing it that that sort of channel of what that is to be whole and pure and come through me authentically, not forced or pushed. I've done things like that. And I think I weigh between grief and anger, but I'm feeling a lot more grief Then anger. And I'm inviting, you know, I guess my prayer is to do, how can I help those people most vulnerable? How can I be there for the people that are most vulnerable during this time? And just opening to where that guides me. I took a woman who had a cane, she needed a ride to Durham to pick up her grandchild. And I was on that way. I was going to Durham to a doctor appointment. And I just listened to this sweet little lady's story of her struggles in life. And I said, well, if you would believe it, I'm actually driving to Fayetteville Boulevard right now, because that's where my doctor appointment is. And she says, well, it's a God thing. And I said, I think you're right. Come on, let's get. And yeah, just being present to listen to her story like those are the things. I love in the book where Campbell's wife talks about rooms. you know, like they're different rooms. And I don't really feel it as rooms, but I do feel like there's these sections or these places that when I'm most grounded and most whole and most present and most in that authentic, these sort of, I sense it more like an octopus, like, but these tentacles reach out, and then I'm in that place. And then another one goes this way. There's all these different places that I can be authentically me and allow that to guide me in a way that I can be of the most service. Does that make sense?

Scott: Absolutely. I think that's an invaluable service now, now more than ever. Thank you.

Kate: Well, you're welcome, Scott. And trust me, there are times, especially with my body having pain, I, you know, I'll just be like, I can't do this because it hurts so bad. I can't sleep at night or whatever. And then I'm just like, there's some other reason that all of this is happening, connecting me deeper into my body, because pain will do that for sure. but that I'm never gonna give up.

Nanette: You've had a pretty extraordinary healing journey. You've done a lot of work, not only spiritually and emotionally, but really this dance has been very much about healing you physically. Can you talk about that a little bit specifically, Kay?

Kate: Well, it's real basic science, and I love this. Motion is lotion. When I was hurting in my 40s, It hurt, so I stopped because everything hurt. I'd always been exercised regularly. It was kind of required as an actor to keep your weight down and all that. I love to eat. I just quit acting at that point. I was working six part-time jobs, so I had the energy to do that, but I had a lot of fatigue and a lot of pain. I knew there was a reason and the pain was teaching me compassion for people that live with this. I mean, people that live with chronic pain, I was reminded with my hip recently, oh yeah, this is why people got addicted to OxyContin and the opioid use, you know, people that get addicted to their painkillers. Okay, I get it because it's just excruciating. And I think some people can tolerate it better than others. But if it stops me from being able to dance or to walk down to the pond, then it affects me because that's how I heal. My arthritis needs the movement. It needs to keep moving. And if it doesn't have it, that's partly why I got this thing in my hip because I was sick for two weeks in February, I had a cough and then it was like, I got well for four days. And then I got something else that was worse, like a flu. that inactivity, I just wasn't moving, I was lying in bed. And I was sick. And it really started hurting then. So it's kind of ironic. But then if I over exercise it, then it hurts worse. Or if I don't move it, it hurts worse. So it's teaching me balance, and reminding me that I am 70 years old and to know how much to do or how not to do. That's at least where I'm at with my hip. But I feel like all throughout my life, it's brought me to humility and it taps into my grief, my ability to grieve that I feel like I stuffed for so many years, like just the sadness that I feel over what's happening in the world. And some of that I feel like has stuck energy in my hip. You know, it's like, There's a pain in my side right now. You know, like, yeah. And for me, it just, you know, I tell people all the time, I said, I've dealt with so much mental and emotional pain in my life. Like, that's easy for me. I know how to process the head and the heart so well, but the body is the last frontier for me. And I think the chronic pain in my 40s was after years of doing healing work emotionally and mentally. And I have had a lot of healing, but I've never, you know, faced a lot of what my friends have with chronic excruciating diseases or life-threatening diseases. You know, I have a friend that every time she gets her mammogram, it's like she goes through that panic and fear of recurrence. And so, you know, I'm not that different from a lot of people. Like in my mind, I'm just like, we all have our different weak spots of our body of where that shows up. As we age, you know, it's like, it's going to get to this point.

Scott: So Kate, in the 80s, you were in Hollywood, you were an actor. And that was before the Enneagram, it was before Nia, it was before embodiment with Philip Shepard. I understand lately, you've been getting back into theater. So I'm wondering, How do you how is it different after the Enneagram Nia embodiment, yoga, etc? Like, what are the what's the quality of it? Now versus then, given all those influences that you've, that is a great question.

Kate: It really is, I will say, I'm freer. My ego isn't worried. what the audience thinks, or the director, or what the reviews are gonna be, or what any, like I just, that ambitious, driving, assertive, aggressive actor, right? And that need, that desperate need to show the world, like all of that's gone. I don't need to show the world anything. Does that make sense? I think the working with other actors that aren't that way, that are just, they're doing this for the love of the acting. There's no agenda or no game being played, so to speak. It's a very safe environment. It feels like this is real creative energy And I've only done two stage reading performances. The last one I did was for a retirement home, sort of luxury retirement home that's right down the road from me about three and a half miles. And it was an audience of people my age and older that live there, right? 200 white haired people. They were beautiful. I didn't all have white hair, but there was a lot. But in doing that was a comedy performance and bringing laughter and joy to people. has a whole different feeling of exchange. Because there's this feeling of I am them, they are me. It's not this separate thing, if that makes sense. Like, I'm this and I have to give them this. And it feels like it's we're all in this together kind of thing that I didn't used to feel. I also think the work of speaking and also being in receiving. So I'm not just transmitting out, that I'm actually transmitting as the character, saying the words of this character, being present to the other actors that I'm with. At the same time, I'm receiving them. And there's a fourth wall of the audience And I'm both aware of them, but I'm not self-conscious about it. That self-consciousness of the audience just isn't there anymore. And so they're a part of the experience. It feels very, very different than when my ego was the driving force. And I love theater, don't get me wrong. And my husband will say, you were always good, but you're just different. You're just different when I see you up there now. And I go, well, I'm 25 years older. But he said, when you're on stage, you look 40. And I thought, and one of our friends goes, yeah, that's a way to get in her good graces. But I think it's the soul child. I think that soul part of me is fully there. I love doing it. It was so incredible when I got the invitation. To do it again, I was like, yeah, it was an older, part of an older woman who looks back and ages from 18 to 65 in the piece. And it's about her relationship with her mother-in-law, very serious piece, the first one I did. But it felt so truly different. So much more alive. and yet real, you know? I can go on and on expressing it, but I think you've got enough.

Scott: I love that. Thank you, Kate. Well, if people want to learn more about you, if maybe they want to participate in UNDANCE, how could they do that?

Kate: Well, I have a website called katefinlayson.com. Very unique.

Scott: That's easy to remember.

Kate: The link to come to the online class is there and they can also email me and I'm happy to send them the information as well.

Nanette: You also have a book, too, called Dancing the Enneagram.

Kate: This is it. It's kind of a little playbook. Okay. And I sold them, I think, when I was there at ICB. You did. You can get it online through Lulu Press. Okay. And it's Dancing the Enneagram with Kate Finlayson and the artist Darlene, who's amazing, who drew coloring pictures for each type. And she wrote a lot about color and how that relates to the Enneagram. She was really brilliant in what she did in her contributions to that little book. It's a fun little dive into the Enneagram just by reading it and sharing about the different movements and how to tap in to allow yourself to integrate more into the healthy qualities of all nine types.

Nanette: Well, we're so grateful for this conversation today and for this time we got to share with you. You're just one of our favorites, Kate. So you're always welcome back to our intensive. We would love to have you anytime. And we know that our students will be looking to connect with you as well. And so we thank you for your wisdom. And I just have to say to our listening audience, I wish you could see Kate's face at the moment. She's just the most gorgeous 70-year-old you ever have seen. And she really does embody her soul. Her soul just shines through. And so it's just been a privilege to speak with you today.

Scott: And it's always a pleasure to hang out with you. We're going to be hanging out at an embodiment retreat together very soon. So I look forward to that. Yeah. Thanks for joining.

Kate: Thank you so much, it's so kind. I'm very, I'm very touched deeply. I do, I want to come down and hang out with y'all again for sure. Well, anytime. Any, any, anytime.

Scott: Thank you, Kate.

Nanette: Thanks, Kate.

Scott: Thank you for listening to The Real Enneagram, a podcast by the Institute for Conscious Being. To learn more about the Institute and its offerings, visit theicb.info. That's T-H-E I-C-B dot I-N-F-O. The music for today's podcast was composed and performed by ICB faculty member Drexel Rayford.

Nanette: Thanks for listening today. We hope you liked what you heard. If you did, please subscribe, leave a review, and share this with your friends and family.