Why In-Person Personal Training Will Be AI-Proof (Sohail Rashid)

In this video, The hosts interview Sohail, founder and CEO of Brawn, about his journey from property law and PropTech (including building an early Facebook property marketplace and later View My Chain) into competitive powerlifting and then fitness tech. He explains how powerlifting shaped his identity and taught transferable lessons for business—planning, patience, handling setbacks, and especially resilience. Brawn started as a social platform for strength athletes, then pivoted during COVID into a virtual events platform used by major federations and brands, before shifting post‑COVID toward making strength training more inclusive by improving gym onboarding and access to coaching. Sohail argues in‑person personal training is “AI‑proof,” driven by growing demand for strength training, and outlines Braun’s AI onboarding and sales tools that match new members to PTs and book sessions. He also discusses GLP‑1s, peptides, TRT, and connecting users to gyms and coaches.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Elon Musk said that becoming a plumber you'll make more money becoming a plumber than a lawyer than any other profession in the AI world. Being a personal trainer will be exactly the same as being a plumber.

SPEAKER_04 0:27

On today's podcast, really excited to have Sahel, who is the founder CEO of Brawn, and I know he's got a very, very interesting story, and he's got some really exciting projects he's going to share with us. So welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Thanks for having us, guys.

SPEAKER_04 0:43

Welcome. Well, let's let's let's kick off with an obvious starting point, which is what's been your journey to this point to uh where you are with Brawn and some of the other projects you have.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

So I started uh in Proptech. So I started building products using data and digital in 2011 for the estate agency in the financial services sector. So I was a property lawyer uh and I was completing property transactions thinking estate agents earn too much money. Yeah. People agree with that, yeah. Yeah, and I thought, how can technology um not disrupt, even though that's an overused term, but make it easier for the home buyer and the home seller? So uh I built a couple of products. First, first thing I did was I built the first ever property marketplace um on Facebook, so this is before Facebook Marketplace existed. Wow. Uh so I built the first ever property app um and that version one allowed you to sell your house privately, so it's a competitor to kind of eBay and Grumtree for private sales. Uh and then I opened it up to the estate agency market. So we then listed about 35% of the property's um stock, so for for sales and lettings. Sold that business um in 2014, uh, and then in 2015, uh the business that bought mine, I set up View My Chain, which um sounds really boring, but for nerds like me, it's super interesting. So if you're in a if you're in a property chain, which is typically between three and four people long, to find out what the top of the chain is doing and have to call the conveyance from the estate agent, um, and that's a pain, and it'll take a few days. And in those few days, something had happened. So we created the first data platform that allowed you to log in and see what everybody was doing in the chain. So it reduced fall-through rates, sped up completions, and for me, that was before Brawn the most successful thing I did. And that was a moment where I was just like, you can take an idea to market and turn it into a business, and there's nothing stopping you doing it because I came from law to social media to kind of pure estate agency. But during that period, um I was a competitive power lifter. So uh I moved, not fully moved, but I had a house in the north and the business was in Milton Keynes, so two, three days a week I was in Milton Keynes, had a young family, didn't want to have a second life in a different city with a set separate kind of social circle. Yeah, so started kind of competing um in powerlifting initially just for fun, which lasted about two days, then it became super competitive. Um, just so I had something to do on an even I I know it sounds silly, but I wanted to look forward to doing something that was outside of work.

SPEAKER_05 3:31

Yeah, you're you're separating yourself from your work because then it makes it a little bit more enjoyable to return back to work, so it's not all live consuming.

SPEAKER_02 3:40

And something that you're kind of really emotionally connected, something that you really give a shit about. Because if you if you don't, you won't do it, particularly somewhat like me. I'm all in or not not interested at all. So I fell in love with the numbers uh of powerlifting really, really quickly. Like I got addicted to my personal progress, um, and that was just in the training. Um, and then when it came to competition, it was um just the biggest shock to me was the first competition I did, everybody came around afterwards and no one said did you win? They said, Did you get your numbers? Right. And everyone holds their PBs like a badge of honour, and it's all about beating your own personal best. And for me, I've always said this, no pun intended, but I didn't realise how strong the strength community was.

SPEAKER_05 4:26

How big is the competitive nature of powerlifting? I I've always been interested in strongman powerlifting. I mean, the community itself, like you say, is there any individual competitiveness? So on the day, are you watching people? Have you got anybody in your view that you're trying to beat, or is it just yourself?

SPEAKER_02 4:43

I mean, I think it's the best sport that no one really gives a shit about, is what I say about powerlifting booker. Because unless you were in powerlifting, you realise that no one really cares.

SPEAKER_05 4:53

I think once you get that onesie on, you realise that everyone's watching you just do the lift. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Um, yes, you do go to competition day with someone that you're trying to beat, um, and you create a pretend rivalry in your head, uh, and that is used to push yourself. Um, but most people are chasing PBs because every competition, and you can only do two or three a year max, you're looking to set a new number, whether that be a certain weight or weight class, so I'm gonna drop weight and keep my strength, yeah, or whether that be I want to hit like do you mean so that that's quite interesting.

SPEAKER_03 5:33

So, do you you all your training is based on getting a PB on the actual day? It's not like something that you might have pulled in training and then you're trying to hit those numbers, you're always actually trying to get your actual personal best on the day.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

You can always tell the difference between a wannabe powerlifter and a proper power lifter by the edits that max out in the gym. Yeah, if that if you're maxing out in the gym, yeah, then you're a pure hobbyist and you just felt like you can with a load of weapons for them.

SPEAKER_05 5:58

But you only really peak once or twice a year in reality in powerlifting to be a competitive powerlifter. Yeah. The rest of the time you're you're doing mezzo cycles, you're tapering down, you're going for volume over sets, like you're basically building the blocks up to that day because of the stress. Yeah. You're you if you're gonna max it out all the time, like you said, you're gonna get hurt.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Well, you you you'll go backwards.

SPEAKER_04 6:20

You'll your nervous system's fried into it.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Yeah, I mean you you see, I mean, the main reason why I can't compete anymore is is the the how taxing it is on your CNS. You cannot work in a high performing role and do power lifter because you're doing two things that are super taxing on your CNS. Yeah, and in terms of, for example, the deadlift, you will do your max deadlift, which will be 95% of your one-rent max, absolute max, probably probably closer to 88, 90. You do that about 14 days out from comp. And that is so that you don't take anything away from the actual comp day. So it's very, very taxing. You're right, depending on whether you're natural or not, depending on your training experience, depending on your genetics, the heavier you are, the less you can peak. If you're a lighter lifter, you can probably do more on a yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:06

Do you feel like powerlifting is one of those sports where it is fundamentally more beneficial to be enhanced just for the recovery process? Because I I've had this argument with before where you talk about these natural powerlifts, which is great, but is the enhanced element only gonna produce your longevity in the sport? Because there's a time scale for everybody of being strong. There's a very short window of your time as an athlete where you're gonna be strong and agile. And if you're not looking after yourself, especially back in the you know, years and years ago, there was no uh routine to maintain and actually look after your body, it was just hammer, hammer, hammer. So is enhanced in that sport more beneficial, do you think?

SPEAKER_02 7:49

I think that's first of all, I don't completely agree that there is a finite time window for strength. Uh, you can continue building strength for a lot longer than you can in other sports because it's not about endurance, it's not about longevity, it's a single plane movement and it's about being more and more proficient at that movement. Injury and time away from training is what will impact your ability to progress. So it's not as short as people think, which is why you get a lot of people peaking in their 40s and 50s. Masters powerlifting is phenomenal now because if they can keep going, they'll keep getting stronger and they'll keep hitting PBs.

SPEAKER_05 8:26

Is that from the stuff that you've done early on to cement that later on though? Because the problem is if you're quote unquote being a dick in your 20s and you're throwing weights around with no real plan, when you get to that stage, is the damage already done?

SPEAKER_02 8:41

Well, a few different things. So when I I I started competing quite old, I was 30, which is quite old for for Pala. I was the oldest in my group um by about nine years, or for more of us that competed at the same time, three, four times a year for for eight years. And I got very strong between 30 and 34, which is when I first became a British champ, and I started getting injuries. And one of the reasons why is because my tendons, cartilage, ligaments, they don't get uh enough time to mature uh in in in relation to how quickly you can put on strength and create muscle. So you can put on muscle a lot quicker than than tenders, ligaments or cartilage, and therefore I I still have issues now. So that was one thing, and some of my makes, like Wiley Sung, who is now kind of one of the best deadlets in the world, he's he's gone on for 12-15 years and continue to put on strength. But the world now in Palestine is very, very different because of social media, because of Gen Z's obsession with strength training, you're seeing 21-year-olds lift 300 kg regularly on a deadlift. And we never saw that at a comp. We'd see that occasionally. And that down to taking gear at too young of an age, right? Um, jumping too aggressively in their 20s, so I mean trying to hit an all-time max in your 20s when you haven't peaked, your body is still growing, and yeah. So they're smashing the big numbers, mainly because of social media, mainly. Um, and what's going to be really, really interesting is to see are there still athletes in their mid-20s and 30s and what the state of their bodies are then. And I and I don't want to I don't want to scare monger, I I don't want to say it's all bad, because obviously I live and believe the the benefits of FREM training. No, but it's true. But I don't know where it is long whether it's got that longity.

SPEAKER_05 10:27

The problem is, like, I remember growing up and 100k bench press was the pinnacle of like if you hit that, you've made it a two-foot bed.

SPEAKER_04 10:34

But now splits a sign, you're totally great.

SPEAKER_05 10:37

And it's almost like a toxic culture where if you can't bench two plates, you're not even a man. And then you've got toxic about that.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 10:48

People who can do it, we know that. But yeah, it the that is the big problem with social media, right? It creates, but it does it in all forms of fitness, you know. You got people with a certain aesthetic, and they're saying how they live, and it's these extreme diets, extreme lifestyle, and nine times out of ten, you're appealing to people out there who think that they're up no up to that level, so they're not meeting that level.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Yeah, yeah. To answer your question about enhanced, um, I think that it's a grey area on whether it's beneficial or not, because it's purely down to the genetics of the individual. Because some people have levers, so I'm naturally very good at bench over the deadlift because I have, as my mates will say, T-Rex arms. So my range of motion is is less. Yeah, so that has a bigger impact than whether you you take game or not. Um, and it's not like bodybuilding, it's not like you're going to get vastly kind of superior strength gains based on what you're taking. Your trading, your technique, your natural levers have a bigger bias towards numbers and what your genetic ceiling is rather than how much gear you take. You'll be able to recover better, you'll be able to put put on more muscle, yeah, but you've still got to lift a piece of iron in a single plane movement and do it in an efficient way at a a weight class as well.

SPEAKER_05 12:14

Yeah, that's that's the part I was going down just the recovery process in general, because even from a muscle perspective, sometimes the translation in power lifting is yes, putting on muscle is good, but in terms of translation to power output, it's a much different process to going in the gym and working for hypertrophy, right? Yeah, yeah. So the recovery process, I just imagined it would be more beneficial. This is what makes me laugh now where they've got the enhanced game coming, and then says, you know, like Thor's moved over to the enhanced games like he was going fucking natural for years, and it's just about everyone's like, Oh yeah. So now he's gonna get on gear. Like, are you fucking joking? Look at the size of him.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

I heard the box gotta go on gear as well soon.

SPEAKER_05 12:54

Yeah, yeah, that needs to. I think uh I think it's about time stops being so natural, yeah. Yeah, film a watch, is like could use a bit more, yeah, yeah, bit more size, look a bit better here, or delse.

SPEAKER_04 13:05

So so so the powerlifting then obviously became a bit of a mini obsession. So when did powerlifting become brawn?

SPEAKER_02 13:15

Well, it wasn't a mini obsession, it became my personality, it became my identity, and I and and I think that's a really important point uh because um I talked earlier about people holding their personal best as a as a badge of honour, right? Yeah, so I went to an all-white grammar school where I was the shortest, skinniest, weakest, and fattest at the same time, uh, and all my mates were kind of natural athletes in comparison. And when you get into your 30s and you hit a physical peak after having kids and you're getting stronger and you're looking better, but not in an arrogant I look good on a holiday way, but generally like I found a hobby and I'm really good at it, you realise it actually becomes part of your identity. Like I was doing great stuff in in the business world, and my mates and my my dad's mates, for example, are when's your next competition? I was like, that's just a hobby. Like I've just built this thing that didn't exist, that's like doing really, really well, got loads of customers, and all you want to know is how much I'm lifting. You realise it actually becomes part of your personality. So that um that is really emotionally strong. And I realised that actually that mental strength that it gave me is something that was massively underrated as a benefit of strength training. It's not about how much you can lift in the gym, it's about have you got what you came for and are you progressing? And I used to go train on my own in Milton Keynes, and I used to just think I'm like the master of my art, practicing my art. Do you know what I mean? Honestly, like it's it was incredibly therapeutic. And when when I decided that I wanted to do something in fitness, it was always going to be in strength because that personal connection and what I got out of it. And I remember in 2019 thinking you've got um that if if you don't, if it's not on Strav, it doesn't count. So there's a bunch of kind of middle-aged men that oh, I've done a run, I didn't put it on Strava, I'm gonna have to do it again. And I thought, Strava's won there. Do you know what I mean? It's got on to go do something. Yes. And I thought for powerlifting, you're either trying to find people on Instagram or you go into a WhatsApp group for the comp and then you create a WhatsApp group coming out of the comp. Yeah. So you've got that community, but it's existing across two different domains. So I wanted to create something that was a uh a social point for the digital community around strength training. So in 2019 I created Braun, which at V1 was really badly named as the Strava for Strength or the Instagram for strength, yeah, and it was about connecting people that always kind of wanted to know who was doing powerlifting and who was like them to inspire or aspire.

SPEAKER_04 15:53

Like it. Powerlifting has got parallels with running, which I was just going to mention because you you brought up Strava. Everyone talks about what's your 10k time, what's your 5k time, what's your marathon time. Whereas in powerlifting, obviously it's what's your what's your bench, what's your squat, what's your deadlift. Yeah. And obviously, like you said, you you've you've looked at the parallels between well, they use Strava, they use all different apps for tracking, measuring, and you thought there's a market here, and that's how version one came along. And what was version two?

SPEAKER_02 16:24

Version two in 2020, uh, when COVID happened in March, I was contacted by the Olympics committee. Uh, because if you work in tech and do powerlifting, you stand out because nearly everybody that powerlifting is either PT or a gym owner. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:42

You say you won with a tablet.

SPEAKER_02 16:44

I thought we've heard you literally, it was like, we've heard you've got an app. Can we use it for virtual events? I was like, yeah, of course. So completely rebuilt the platform to a video sharing platform in the middle of COVID. Um, took advantage of Furlow uh and we created a uh a virtual events platform that was then used for Olympic weightlifting and in class of palating federation. So we were the first ever virtual events platform um used by the IPF, which got over two million uh registered athletes across 20 different countries to connect the strength community during uh the lockdown and international uh travel restrictions, couldn't the country of international comps. We partnered with uh Chris Duffin and Kabuki uh and ran a uh a non-tested uh palifting competition. Uh partnered with Gymshark, which is where I met Paul Richardson, my business partner, partnered with Aleco, A7, My Protein. Um, and we we broke a record. So December 21, we had 1,500 participants, 20 different countries, live streaming days. We took over Gymshark's Twitch feed, broke their record at 400,000 people. Uh we had uh John Hack, who's the pound for pound strongest powerlifter fly over at that point. Um, and that was when we became really, really famous in version two of Braun within the Strem community, um, as the platform for virtual events.

SPEAKER_05 18:14

So you essentially bridged that gap between a sport that doesn't, it's mainly a spectator sport, and you brought it online so anybody could be part of that action. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

I mean, no one's ever called us that, but I'll take it. I'll take it.

SPEAKER_04 18:32

So so amazing success, property business, software, and now that's brought itself into the fitness world. What character traits, what what things about yourself can you attribute to the success uh to this point uh version two across uh the property side and the fitness side?

SPEAKER_02 18:51

I mean it's unhealthy obsession. Uh yeah. You have to have business is really, really hard. Really, really hard. And it's harder than anybody um really appreciates because it takes over your life. Um you have to be able to make insane sacrifices.

SPEAKER_04 19:12

Yeah, but you're just lucky. That's the common thing from the public, isn't it? Yeah. Or you're just lucky.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

I've got more failures than anybody. Uh and and and that's and and and that's the truth. Um so it's funny you say success here, success here, success here. You ask anybody that's been successful, they'll look back and go, success. Do you value your failures?

SPEAKER_05 19:31

That's that's like the top tips of the iceberg, isn't it? There's all the stuff under the water, yeah. Yeah, so what's the question? Do you value your failures? Because this is some, I mean, I'm we're very early in our business years, but I start to value the failures that you have because there's a learning point to it. So of all the failures that you've had, you said you've had a ton. But is there any lessons out of that that you could have that helped you pay forward?

SPEAKER_02 19:57

Yeah, I mean uh the to to answer both your questions, I think the the resilience is the number one the number one skill that you need to build and learn and harness and improve. Um and I think that that that's my advice to anybody going into business. Um and your failures build your resilience.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

Yeah, it's how it's how you come back from each failure, isn't it? And how you improve and make the adjustment to um to progress after that.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Yeah, and and and just to keep keep going. Um I mean, Paul Richardson, my business partner friend and and and mentor, he's got in his gym do the hard things um written on the wall, yeah. Uh, and that's what it's about. And I've learned so much from him because he has he's seen it and done it all so many times. Um and when you've got someone like that who backs you when things aren't going right, you realise that actually that's where uh real resilience is built. So the number one thing is resilience because everything else, like if you can't sell, you'll learn how to sell. If you can't come with ideas, you'll learn how to come up with ideas, and if you can't do something, as in like a skill, in particular in today's world, you can go do it. But what you can't teach is resilience. Do you know what I mean? People talk about drive and passion or motivation, and yeah, those are all great traits, but if you get if you get knocked down and you haven't got that fuck you, I'm still gonna go do it. Yeah, right. I mean, you're gonna get knocked down. Yeah. And if you if you're not gonna get it back up, it's game over. And it's resilience. That is the number one skill. The more resilient you are, um, because what determines success are a bunch of variables that are outside of your control. Timing, luck. I mean, those are two big thingers, and then a hundred others. But you can't like timing, you can only make an educated guess, and luck is luck. So therefore, you've got no idea how far or how close you are from being success. And by the way, ask any business owner, like, are you successful? They'll say no.

SPEAKER_05 22:10

Yeah. No matter how many wins you've had, you haven't got the win. There's no such thing as the big win where you're just going to be happy. No. And I've talked we've talked about this before, we talk about the happiest measurement, is when you revolve your life around when I get to this point, I'm going to be happy. And then you get the realization after so much time is oh, I'm never going to be happy. There's going to be just the next bit and the next bit. Because what point are you going to reach where you go, I've got enough, I'm fine, everything's done. I can close my laptop.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

Can you let me now let me out?

SPEAKER_04 22:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:42

We're still trying to leave it out.

SPEAKER_04 22:44

Well, it's the pursuit, isn't it? Is it? You know, it's you know, the destinations are just that, they are destinations. Yeah, everyone always says when they get to any kind of destination, they look back on the journey and the little micro wins and the little victories along the way. They get to the end of it. I mean, I heard Paul Richardson ironically talking about his business journey on a podcast talking about Gymshark.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:07

And he sort of said every time he'd exited a business or got a massive payout, it was like, Well, is that it?

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:13

You know, it's yeah, but there's been there's been that a long journey behind that moment where you're like, Alright, well, tomorrow what's next.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

I think it's easy to say when you've when you've had a good thing. Of course, yeah, of course, yeah. But I think one of the self-criticisms I have um is learning how to appreciate the journey more and the process more.

SPEAKER_03 23:31

That one just could have been my question. That do you do you enjoy the journey even through obviously chasing the PBs? Um, were you ever satisfied when you actually got the PB, or is it the same revolve back to the business as well as you always do you still enjoy the journey, or is it an end goal?

SPEAKER_02 23:46

So there's lots and lots of parallel benefits uh and similarities between powerlifting and business. But like you have to have patience, you have to have resilience, you will fail in the gym, and you have to have a plan V and you have to have those micro milestones. And if you don't have a plan, then you'll you you'll get nowhere.

SPEAKER_03 24:05

Do you think there's a lot of lessons learned during like a hobby and just having something like that transfers over, like you just said, parallel to business? There's so many little lessons just from doing it on a personal level from your training.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

Yeah, I mean, powerlifting was one of the best lessons I had uh in terms of both parenting and business. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? The the commitment to something, uh, understanding that that's your goal, but that's not the finish line. Yeah, there's a goal afterwards, understanding the setbacks, working around injuries, all of that is completely transferable to building resilience, having a plan, being methodical, and just having direction and clarity in in business, and de definitely definitely became a better businessman through the experience of powerlifting. And in terms of kind of the failures part, I think it's it's the it's the biggest thing that is a difference between somebody who's um lucky in business and somebody who uh is a businessman. So when when we look at these influencers in today's world and these mentors and these people charging huge amounts of money for for advice, I want to know what pain your failure is. One of the first questions that that that Paul asked me, like he didn't care about what I'd done that worked well. We wanted to know what's what have you done that hasn't worked well. And uh that that for me, because I get a lot of people asking me advice. I mean, generally though it's like how can you raise money? How do you raise money? And and and it's that's not where you should start. But if you're if you're going to somebody for advice, you want someone who if you're they've if they're if they've had their back against the wall and they've come out of it fighting, that's what you want. Someone that's really, really been up against it.

SPEAKER_04 25:50

So, another question for you. So, on this brawn journey so far where you're up to at version two, was there anything that nearly made you quit along that journey to this to that point where you've got to so far?

SPEAKER_02 26:01

I mean, the funniest period, the most enjoyable period was the virtual events. Yeah, yeah. Um the the problem is I said this earlier, powerlifting is a sport that no one really cares about. So there's no money to be made in the virtual events of powerlifting. Um but it was the most enjoyable experience. Um and what what you learned is every time the business opportunity gets bigger, and the further you win, the harder it gets, and the less enjoyable it gets as well. So in the first three years, it was oh my god, I'm like I've combined my experience and my passion, and I've got all these kind of people like Chris Duffin. I've a I've always been a super fan, Chris Duffin, founder and owner of Kabuki, world record holder of the squat and deadlift. Lived out in um Portland. I've been to see him twice, he's a mate, we kind of FaceTime on WhatsApp all the time, and he became my business partner in the virtual events for uh for Braun. So it was fun. Got to meet and work with Paul Richardson, fun, amazing. And then when the business gets serious, and when the stakes get higher, some of the fun fun goes. And to answer your question, Mars, the the the more it becomes a business and the less it becomes a startup, the less enjoyable it is, and therefore there's multiple times where you do really struggle to enjoy the moment, yeah. But if you've taken people's money, yeah, so and everyone wants investment, but with investment becomes should come and does for me huge amounts of responsibility, yeah. And when you are a parent and you're a provider, huge amount of responsibility. So the reality is that becoming a business owner is taking on you're responsible for everyone's mortgage at the end of every month. You're responsible for kind of sacrificing the time that your kids want and your family want for a bigger purpose, and you've got to make it worth your while. And you then got friends and family that kind of you talk to about what you're doing, all of a sudden you're kind of responsible to them as well. And the responsibilities get overwhelming, and I think that's something that people don't realise that the bigger the the company and the dream and the years of investment and the time and other people's money, as well as customers, it becomes super, super overwhelming in terms of level of responsibility, and that's where resilience at a different level needs to come in. Because now you're not just doing it because it's fun and you want to put on your LinkedIn or your Instagram that you're an entrepreneur and you're a CEO. It's like try writing it a different way. I am responsible for X amount of mortgages every month. Does that sound sexy? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:42

Does that sound and did you um did you feel a dip? Obviously, it was during lockdown when you did the virtuals. So was there a dip after lockdown once everything because I I did a very similar thing, so I set up an online uh business with like a four-week training plan, it went all over the world. Same thing, the excitement were there. I didn't have an app at the time that were big enough to actually take the entire members on, so I was chasing it, but as soon as the lockdown went, that's when sort of that that you know, like everyone were chasing the online stuff, and then after, did you feel like there were an impact of dip of you needing the virtual or did that with a sticking point?

SPEAKER_02 29:16

It was it was it was quite strategic by us because um my mission and vision was to make strength training more inclusive and accessible, right? And virtual events for elite power lifters doesn't fulfill that mission. That was an opportunity that was given to us because of COVID to make ourselves famous in a very short period of time. Right, right. So all of a sudden, I mean, so Eric Blomberg, who owns Aleiko out in Sweden, number one kind of uh arguing number one um manufacturer of barbell and plates. Um obviously I'm having lunch with him and he's fired me out to Sweden because we've partnered with the IPF. So you become quite famous because of an opportunity, but that became the springboard because in 2022, when the gym started reopening, Aleiko introduced me to third space. Right. Real. So all of a sudden I'm now in third space, which is the the UK's, if not the world's, kind of best luxury gym chain. So all of a sudden we were able to use that to actually start to get closer. But what we had to do in 2022 was get our technology in front of gen pop, horrible phrase, but people that strength train for their health and their fitness. Yeah, because and the science has now come out, but I've strongly believed health span, longevity, now what you've got is bone density, menopause. We'll talk about GLP1 of it. But all of these mainstream health benefits for strength training, yet strength training is not inclusive and accessible. When people go to the gym, they don't go, right, I'm gonna go over to the plates and the machines. No, they know where the toilet is, the stretch area, the cardio, the classes, and the exit door. So I mean those are things that a new member knows. They never get to weight trading. So the problem that we had to fix in order to fulfil that mission and vision was help people start to strength train safely and make it more inclusive and accessible. So in 2022, version three of Braun, it was moving away from virtual events and breaking down those barriers in the gym to help people make that step trading. So coming out of COVID enabled us to do that, and actually the timing was great because the gyms are reopening. Yeah. During COVID, they'd used, as you know, used the opportunity to redo the gym. Less cardio, more functional training, more strength training, more machines, more areas for women's strength training. So we then became an enabler to allow those operators to to kind of launch again after COVID.

SPEAKER_03 31:44

All right, it's interesting. I'd I like I said I went in a very similar situation. We didn't have the follow-up plan quite as that's probably one of my failures.

SPEAKER_04 31:51

So yeah, that's making a particular same as Ballet Nation. As well, what I think people found, and and I saw this this trend was people during lockdown were buying spin bikes for the garage. They were out running when they could, they were doing hit workouts at home. The one thing they didn't tend to do, unless they had a garage full of barbells and plates, was lift. So we saw people coming back to the gym, things like spin numbers dropped, class numbers started dropping, but people were queuing more for racks, platforms, and actual strength training. And then we saw all the research coming out more and more, Rhonda Patrick, you know, putting things out about obviously, like you said, bone density, putting out about predicted lifespan. On digital process, yeah, with with with your degree of muscle tissue and everything else. So the strength training popularity and curve just seems to never end going upwards. You're riding that wave. What's brawn looking like now? How is it how is it currently looking?

SPEAKER_02 32:55

So we thought that there was a problem in the gym operators' world around personal training, and the reason why we identified personal training as being a key kind of cog in our wheel is that personal trainers are the pathway for people to learn how to strength train, and there is a shortage of personal trainers in the sector. Yeah. Whether you're talking to a gym group and a pure gym, kind of the the high value, low-cost operators, or whether you talk to a third space, go a premium, they have the same problem. Um we know because we talk to them all. So there's not enough good personal trainers, and there's not enough personal trainers in any gym, and there's not enough members using personal training for a variety of reasons. So we quickly identified that in order to be able to help more people get into strength training, we had to help that element of the operating model for a gym operator, which is helping personal trainers access more members. And that's a really, really tough problem to fix, and it's been the toughest problem that we that we've encountered because look at how the gym operating model has changed over the last 10-15 years, look how social media has changed, look how everything has changed, but the PT model hasn't. How PTs win clients in the gym floor hasn't changed since 2005. It's the same model. We've had the challenge of online PT being the place where PTs want to go and earn money and live in Bali, live in Dubai, and had six clients and earn 180 grand if you believe everything that you see on Instagram, and that's harmed the market. We've had the reality of if you're working in a gym where the average monthly membership is£20, which is the highest segment of the gym market today and the fastest growing still, and you're trying to sell the product which is your one-to-one at 40 to 50 pounds an hour. Do those unit economics work in that demographic? No, they don't. So we were the first company to create a tech-enabled small group training platform. So in a large operator, if we've got PTs in Pure Gym, we've got PTs in Gym Group. They're now able to run small group strength training sessions where members are paying between eight and£12 per session. There's four to six people per session. So the members getting huge value for money, they're getting personal coaching at eight quid, twelve quid, fifteen quid. Still absolute bargain. And the PT is increasing their utilization and also their hourly rate. But then it's getting access to members and it's helping members that are unaware of the benefits of PT because PT's got a bad rep as well. You ask lots of members, do you want a PT? I don't want to pay somebody 50 quid an hour to count my reps. Rent a friend, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:56

Yeah, yeah. Rent a friend trainer.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

And there's a lack of education and awareness uh from members initially on the benefits of personal training. Like, would you go learn how to swim on your own? Would you go teach yourself to swim? Would you teach yourself how to play the piano? Or would you get someone to teach you?

SPEAKER_05 36:14

It's an interesting angle because it the problem could also fall back on the PT's education as well. Because again, the certification process for personal training has not really changed again in years. Um basically from the education point of view, you still get all the handbooks about nating physiology, and maybe a little bit of behaviour change, nutrition, and then how to write a program. And that's it. Certificate done. See you later, have fun with that. What we don't teach you is behavioural change in terms of teaching someone the value of something, how to actually get on a person's level, how to change their life, and also add it in as a habit, not just an overhauled of doing. There's so many things that PTs are not educated on, so when they get put in front of clients, things that they've enjoyed doing is just a hobby to them. Oh, I like going to the gym five days a week doing this. You should do the same. Convincing someone of that is the biggest challenge. And I think PT's education in general has lowered over the years because of social media as well, because they've gained an idea of what it looks like. It's a glamorous career, it's the easiest thing you could do. People's gonna be queuing out the doors because they've seen how much I can deadlift. Yeah, but it's not the reality.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

I think PTs are a the the the the instability of income for a young personal trainer is a real problem in particular in today's world, high cost of living, yeah. Um, and to get a stable income quickly within personal training is really, really difficult. And most of my best mates are PTs and they're very successful PTs, but they are the outliers and they're the ones that have taken 10 plus years to build a business.

SPEAKER_04 37:56

Quick question for you the ones who you mentioned there, what are the common traits of those trainers that's made them successfully, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_02 38:04

Uh resilience in personal training, because I've got some friends that have flitted in and out and they've really, really struggled to build a business in personal training. Um, I mean, I'm really, really lucky and fortunate that I have uh two best mates, Nat and Wiley, you know of them both, um, who are met through powerlifting that are purists in personal training. So they never believed that their business was an online model and that they should commoditize their services through online. They have online clients, but it's because it suits the client, not them. Yeah, they can't get to them and they do the programming or what they've trained with them and then moved away, but they still want that relationship with their personal trainer because if you're a good PT, a bit like you'll see in barbering, beauty, cosmetics, there's a lot of loyalty. Loyalty, uh yeah, guys. And people forget about that. You don't get people that switch PTs or switch a barber unless they're a really bad thing. People buy from people, exactly. It's not always about the knowledge, it's about the person.

SPEAKER_03 39:04

Yeah, I've still got clients today that I've taken eight, ten years. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:08

And and and and that then that that then becomes a sustainable business, but it takes time to get there. And the average lifespan of a of a PT, particularly under 90 days, another 12 months, mean that not enough PTs get there that they're never giving themselves a chance. So these guys that are uh are super successful today, and any PT will look at them and go, Oh my god, that's what I want. I've seen them grind doing the pure gym shifts. Do you know what I mean? Clear the toilets, yeah, being on that gym floor for four hours to have one conversation with a client and they've done the hard work. That's why they are where they are now.

SPEAKER_03 39:44

Yeah, I used to have to do 30 exercise for less when that was it, when that would have thing. Uh I had to do 30 unpaid hours a week just for cheaper rent. So I used to used to be cleaning round gym floor, and um yeah, so I I did all the same thing, and they used to book inductions in your time, and then after a certain point, then you could have say you were in for six hours, you could book three of your own sessions in, but then they stopped you doing that. Yeah, so then you'd have to do six hours unpaid, and then I'd have to do my own clients after. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:10

There's a theme there, hard work, yeah. Willing to put the hard yards in. Yep, you know, you did the hours, you did the the unsexy stuff. All your mates have all done the unsexy stuff, but they've stayed in the fight, stayed in the game to see the other side.

SPEAKER_05 40:26

Yeah, but this is this is a dying shade because now if you look at the world today, you've got kids who are millionaires playing the Fortnite, so the idea of hard work is seemingly less attractive because it's hard to convince someone that hard work will get you a result.

SPEAKER_02 40:40

Well, I have this debate about gaming with my kids all the time because I've got two incredibly bright boys, and uh they're they're happy to have a debate with daddy, and they'll tell me, Yeah, but uh Mr. Beast earned 250 million last year and he's worth 2.3 billion, and it took him two years to make a video that got 100,000 views, and now he's done this, so he can make money doing gaming. And it's really, really difficult to argue against that, except for the fact that actually Mr. Beast worked really, really, really hard for two years before he hit that level. And actually, whether we it's not our generation, yeah. And when I grew up game, sorry if you were gamers, but gamers were losers when I grew up, right? But now gaming is is the norm, and these people put a lot of work in. So actually, I think there's an element of generalization because a bit like PT, you might look at it from the outside and say, well, PT is really easy because you just log in and check, it's like, okay, that's 0.01% of the of the PT population. But going back to the the new PT and the misconception they've got, right? So so we work with predominantly new PTs, okay? So our product, and I'll talk about the the the next version that that that we're launching, but our product is perfect for connecting a new member and a new PT. Where which is the problem? That's where the problem, if you can fix that, it compounds into a benefit. The problem with the new PT is that they will spend 1500 quid on James Smith Academy or one of these other mentors, which talks about your lighting, your social media. Okay, if you've got 350 followers, 150 of which are your friends and family, what's the point of spending money to make your videos look like James Smith? You're not gonna be the next James Smith, okay? You're doing 16 hours in a gym with three and a half thousand members, that's where your customers are. Learn to talk to people in the gym, learn to help people in the gym, that's where your trade is. And the amount of PTs where I've had this very direct conversation where they think that I'm gonna spend a load of money on my social media, and then in six months' time we're gonna have a load of online clients. Bring Chat GPT into the mix where they commoditize your six months' experience of personal training into a prompt, where's the online PT model now?

SPEAKER_04 42:56

Well, we see we've seen that change. I've I've predicted it now for three years, uh, and I've I've I've bang that drum repeatedly saying that there will be a change back to either hybrid or in-person PT. But the when we talk about the the problem you've just highlighted there, and I've seen it in 30 years in the gym industry, which is 30 years this year, that uh if you can't speak to 10 people, because conversations matter, if you can't speak to 10 people a day in that 16 hours on a gym floor, you will struggle to build a sustainable BT business. And I've seen that repeated over 30 years.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

Well, I'll give you a soundbite. So Elon Musk said that becoming a plumber, you'll make more money becoming a plumber than a lawyer than any other profession in the AI world. Right? Being a personal trainer will be exactly the same as being a plumber. But you can put you can't replace right the future what is an AI proof business for your kids to go do personal training. Why? Because they're There is a macro change coming in demand for strength training because of GLP 1. Okay? Yep. That will start to peak in 2028. Okay? You've got retitured, as you know, which gets approved in 2027. In 2028, we're going to see mass adoption. We're going to see the cost of GLPs come down. Yep. And the only healthcare solution to that is strength training and adequate protein intake. Agreed. Okay. The demographic that are going to be the adopters of that, the ones that need that help the most, which is not the bodybuilders that are taking it now. Okay. It's the segment that's coming. They've never been to a gym before. And if they have been to a gym before, they've never done 60 minutes of strength training every single week. Okay? They're going to have to do it. It will it will be prescribed. And what does that mean? It means a greater demand on the gym floor for people to show them how to do it. That is the opportunity that's coming. It's in-person and AI enables it rather than removes the need for it.

SPEAKER_04 45:01

Yes, it augments and works alongside it, but the in-person PT, in your opinion, is going to be a recession-proof, AI-proof role and feeling.

SPEAKER_02 45:11

In person personal training is a the recession-proof business in the gym sector. And if I was to advise people what to do next, don't learn how to do anything that's digital. Okay. Don't learn how to do anything that's workflow-oriented, which has been the mass employer over the last 10 years. Yeah. And the thing that has harmed personal training in the last 10 years, which has been online, is a thing that's now going to make it even more valuable because if you can get an in-person experience, that's going to become more and more valuable, than less valuable in a world where productivity is going to go through the roof, where demand on health longevity and need for strength training is going to go through the roof. Man, these are macro changes. These aren't kind of small behaviour changes, these are macro level changes that are happening in society, and therefore in-person experiences become more valuable, your personal health is more valuable, and the need for strength training is more valuable. And you can't teach yourself on YouTube. No, it's good out where Pete C inga's I I would I would like to see anybody argue against that. That's where the opportunity is.

SPEAKER_04 46:24

It does make perfect sense. It does make perfect sense.

SPEAKER_02 46:33

But describe a good gym. What's a good gym? A good gym is a community, and it's a good gym that's vibrant, and it's a good gym because people enjoy being there. Okay. If you've got happy PTs, you've got paying PTs, but guess what? You've got happy members. And I don't see enough gyms taking a PT first approach in their operations. Yeah, I think they're looking at the quality of kit, which is great. They're looking at fads like HyRox, and we could talk about that as well. Right? But are they doing enough to make it PT first? Right? Where is that onboarding? And that's where the gap is, and that's that's the next thing that we're looking at.

SPEAKER_04 47:11

Well, do you agree with this? So we always looked at the data in the in the in the gym industry, and we looked at if you can get your members into classes, they will stay longer. I I've always argued the same point as you if you can get members into personal training, they will stay longer because they get better results, it's safer, they have community with the coach, and they get the bug. So I think if you can get more of your members into personal training, they will definitely stay longer.

SPEAKER_02 47:39

Look, classes are inclusive, and I'll never ever knock anybody that's going to a gym and doing a class. But if you're looking to build strength, you're not going to get it from a class. If you're looking to learn how to do something safely, you're not going to get it from a class. Yeah. If you're looking to improve your health and longevity, you're not going to get it from a class. If you're looking to get a bee sting and feel good about yourself and burn a few calories, go to a class. That's fine. But it serves a purpose. Community, social connections, I get it. But it doesn't do those other things.

SPEAKER_04 48:08

So you mentioned it, we're going to use the word now, we're going to use Hyrox as an example. So that obviously has been great for community. It's popular. But it doesn't tick the boxes you've just mentioned in terms of the does it build your strength. It's not going to have that strength effect on longevity.

SPEAKER_02 48:26

Well, I won't mention any names, but all you need to do is look at the ex-bodybuilders now sending Hyrox packages. With the shirts off, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Saying that, look, follow my Hyrux package. Look like this. Yeah, yeah. Go my app, wear represent because that's what they all wear. Yeah. They didn't build their body from running. They didn't build their body from 10k. They built their body from being on men's health and following a amateur to pro bodybuilding cycle for 10 years, and then realizing actually I can make more money by calling it HyROX and selling a programme. Well the cost advertising.

SPEAKER_05 48:59

They call it a mything effect, don't they? Because you're selling your outcome as something else to what it actually is.

SPEAKER_02 49:07

The thing, so once again, I'm not knocking anything that gets people moving. And the one thing that HyROX has done, there's a few things it's done really, really well, right? The events are world-class, okay? I've done it, I went to Copenhagen, did it, loved it, right? Absolutely loved it. It's for runners, and I'm not a runner, but it's a as an event, it's a world-class event. Yeah. And as a model, they can chuck out world-class events at that volume because that's a slick slick business, right? Yeah. But I really, really struggle with the obsession to have High Rock so overly invested on the gym floor. There's a new gym that's opened in Halifax where they've spent bugger all in their weight kit, from what I can see, right? And an absolute fortune of their uh budget on their on their High Rock's Performance Centre in their gym. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 49:57

And I'm going I know which gym it is because I used to run it when it first opened. In 2003, I think. It's that gym. I know which gym it is.

SPEAKER_01 50:05

Yeah, yeah. You and your mates from the other uh chain.

SPEAKER_02 50:09

Yeah, the other chair when it was another chain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know exactly what I'm on about. And you can see where all their budget's gone. It's gone to 35% of their floor space, which is dedicated to Hyrux, okay? And I'm going, who's your customer? Okay, because I see the people doing Hyrux, right? They're with their tops off, they're competing, and there's about six of them. Okay? It's not inclusive, it's not accessible, yeah, and it is obsessed over one particular kind of men's circuit training, which is great, but I don't I don't get it. I I don't understand how it grows the fitness community and how it helps get more people.

SPEAKER_03 50:45

I think it grows e it grows egos, more than all, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_04 50:48

I feel like there's more memes now about high rocks I see on social media, yeah. Mocking it, yeah, because of it. I think the the initial wave has happened.

SPEAKER_03 50:58

That's what I like. The you know the original wave, and it was sort of like it were a competition where anyone and everyone could be involved, and I love that. Like it made something almost like CrossFit, but like uh a simpler version where it didn't matter if you were over 50, if you were in your 20s, like everyone could compete and do the same thing, and everyone got this enjoyment out of it. I feel like it's just gone into a thing for purely social media now. Like, what even on that that's one of the memes, isn't it? Would you would you do high rocks if you couldn't video it? So yeah, no, without without each year, and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:29

I think the main point that you made about obviously all the memes that are negative against it. The beautiful thing about social media, and this is why it's going to stay around, is negative press is still press because people are still talking about it. And it doesn't matter whether it's a piss date. You see, like no one's really defending it, no one's really coming out and trying to go against the memes. Why? Because it's still popular, because it's still in people's mouths.

SPEAKER_02 51:49

Well, look, I think it's really difficult to progress in in high walks. I can I know five to six gym owners, fitness directors in in in in various different gyms, and they've done high walks once or twice, and then I don't I don't get it, but they'll promote the fuck out of it because it's in their gym. Okay, it is all self-purpose. Okay, PTs do it so they can sell high walks. They don't do it because it's do I mean they're either bodybuilders, powerlifters, or marathon runners, they'll do a high rox because it helps them sell. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 52:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:23

Fitness uh directors do it so they can help sell the justification in their gym. These gyms have now spent a significant amount of their annual budget on a licence fee for a brand to be associated with Hyrocks to get more members into their gyms. I would argue, would you uh would should should that money have been spent on new members and PTs?

SPEAKER_04 52:44

Well, I've done I've done the experiment so I can give the data. Yeah, but and I've reversed it.

SPEAKER_02 52:48

Yeah, right? It's like um you're just making the fit fitter, great, but that's not your problem, that's not your attention problem, that's not your new member problem. I could tell you what, none of them are buying PT either. So, how's that actually creating a more sustainable business model for you as an operator? But they spent so much money, they've got to justify it. We've got to talk about hierarchies now.

SPEAKER_05 53:07

It's a glamour thing, though, innit? Like the name HIROX is so popular now, you can brand it anywhere and it brings eyes on your business. And I get it from a promotion sort of um model, it works great, but even so, if you're not going down the route of actually improving people's health, it's a great entry point. If someone didn't know how to get involved in fitness, they might go into that, it might evolve something else. But it's one of those things, it it's a gener, it's a timely thing. After five, ten years, it'll move on to something else. There'll just be a new event that people can do, and it's a great thing about branding, it happens all over social media, they'll put it on supplement products, you know, it's the high rock special hydration kit, and it's the same hydration kit you can buy from anywhere. But Crit says high rocks, people are like, I'm gonna use that for high rocks. It's the same method that everyone uses. You slap a label on, it looks good, and people know about it.

SPEAKER_04 53:58

Just go back to your gym floor utilization, which this is something I'm massive on because obviously I've owned gyms for years. You know, you you just mentioned about a gym where they might be putting 30% of a gym floor to high rocks. And I I bet knowing that gym, because and I know that gym, I bet 0.2% of the membership will be doing or even doing the high rocks classes. But they're giving not 0.2% of the gym floor to it, they're giving 30% of the gym floor to it.

SPEAKER_02 54:31

It looks good in the gym, okay? It's got great lighting, okay? And um, if you've got a good back and it's sweaty, it'll look amazing in the pictures while you should do the side push. And it's great marketing. But having been on the inside of how to run a business, I look at the participation, I look at the types of people that are participating, and I look at what makes a gym sustainable from a commercial point of view, but also from a fitness point of view. So I'm deeply, deeply passionate about helping people learn how to do things that they need to do to improve their health and longevity. That's why we exist. You have to do 60 minutes of strength training, and you're not going to get the progress that you want to do from the treadmill or doing classes. Okay. Personal training is a pathway to improving and learning the skill so you can go train on your own for the rest of your life. Invest in that.

SPEAKER_05 55:30

Yep. No, 100%.

SPEAKER_04 55:32

You're resting in a skill as well, aren't you? The lifting safely to be able to live a healthier, longer life. Yeah, rather than just competing on a Sunday at high ROX.

SPEAKER_02 55:41

Well, what's the skill in throwing a ball at a wall at the spot? Time and time again.

SPEAKER_05 55:47

Yeah, there's no we call it functional training.

SPEAKER_04 55:49

Yeah, the carryover to everyday life is yeah, nothing.

SPEAKER_05 55:52

I always love the phrase functional training. I always love we're gonna do functional training today. Like, what is functional training? Just get strolling.

SPEAKER_02 56:00

It's hybrid. I mean, me, like it's hybrid. I mean oh, you mean S and C?

unknown 56:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:04

Yeah, I'm a hybrid coach. What you you you run and lift weights. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 56:10

Yeah, it's like you said, no, it's it's what's like in all fairness to them, it's what's what is gripping the attention. So so the the fair the fair to do it, but uh and I get it, you've got you you're trying to get cut through, you're trying to speak to what's on trend.

SPEAKER_02 56:22

Yeah, absolutely. But I mean I'm I'm an old person, okay. I I don't believe in fan business like that.

SPEAKER_05 56:28

I mean, also can never back someone who's called a hybrid rock star. Like, I just can't, yeah. Like if if I see that on someone's Instagram bio, I'm just gonna ignore it. I can't I can't follow someone with a hybrid rock star in the it does high rock sounds cool, but if you f if you know what it actually means, like what Charles Polloquin used to say nothing gets worse by getting stronger, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:50

The carryover to running, sports performance, aging, getting off the toilet when you're older, mentality, brain health, every single factor in your life will get better if you get stronger. Yeah, and I and that's always stuck with me from a seminar, always stuck with me. And I'm like, you can't argue against it. It is true, and obviously, you your your main well, I know you've got other projects, but but brawns tries to solve that problem, doesn't it? Getting people safely stronger in a gym with good coaching.

SPEAKER_02 57:22

Yeah, so we um when the AI wave hit uh last year, um I I was initially uh because I don't jump on, as you probably tell for my personality, I don't jump on anything um until I'm convinced that there's a there's a benefit to it. So we had a embarrassingly, we had a rule, I had a rule in the business, which is that if you haven't written the email yourself, then I'm not gonna read it and I'd send it back. So anything that came from robot talk, I thought uh I call it, I'd send it back. And now and and that is a very real problem because I think that if you're removing all cognitive load on thinking about something, I don't know if you've understood the problem and therefore send it to me again in your own English rather than robots who understand that you understand the problem. Yeah. Um and then I've done the full wave where actually I've gone, oh, I can do 10 things in the same time it would take me to do one, and therefore I can cook it's a complete multiplier.

SPEAKER_01 58:21

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 58:21

Um, and as a tech business, so but the the point of that is that I've got up and down in understanding what is the balance, and also the balance varies depending on the individual, where they are in the business, and what role they've got as well. But we made some really, really big pivotal decisions in Q4 last year. We did that um whilst we're working with the gym group, uh, and we did that uh because AI had broken a few barriers in terms of uh what it can do in the software development space, which is game changing. So as a business that's a tech business, it's had the biggest impact on us um because that's what we do, that's what we do for a living. But also because the size of our business and because we have no long-term investments to existing software or infrastructure, we were able to make really big pivotal changes, like literally within weeks went from this to this. And it was game-changing, both in terms of our PL, both in terms of our operating model, and we moved last quarter of 2025 to um AI fluency, which is we use AI, to AI native, which is everything is AI first. And now we're moving to AI agentic, which I'll come to. But what that actually meant was that once we went through that transition internally of how we can use AI to change our operating model, we're then able to, with some conviction, look at how we can change other people's businesses using the same approach. Yes. And what we've built is the first AI onboarding tool for members into personal training. So when you join a gym now, our digital hooks will give you an AI personalized plan, which replaces any generic PDF or uh generic plan of what you should eat, what you should do, it's been personalized to you, and it's done in seconds. And then the technology meets the customer where they are. So if they're in WhatsApp, it'll meet them in WhatsApp. And we spent three months having over a thousand transcribed conversations with new members to upsell them to personal training and created an AI sales bot, a super bot that knows how to speak to members to understand what their goals are, what their problems are, what their objections are, and then to book them onto a personal training service. Yeah, that happens as an end-to-end service. So the PT then gets an Uber style job of members that want to do personal training, that have given their card details to do personal training, but not just at any random time, it'll fit when they're on shift. Because one of our other biggest learnings was if you send a PT a job, they'll take it because they need money, but not if they've got another job, not if they're in the gym.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:05

So actually, the schedule's got to fit their schedule. It's like sending when I explained this to one of our successful PTs, who goes, oh yeah, it makes so much sense. It's like sending uh an Uber driver a job when they're on the way home. I was like, oh yeah. It makes sense, it makes so much sense. Yeah, yeah. So um we've created that platform end-to-end, and we've done that in in rapid time. We've done it in weeks, but we've done it after two, three years of really, really understanding the problem of the sector, and then really, really understanding how we could positively impact our business and then take it to operators. So for me, I think that is the biggest potential needle mover in any operator because as you know, onboarding your client is such a crucial part as a member, crucial part of uh that the member experience. It will have a binary impact on whether that first seven to fourteen days experience in their gym is good or bad, which will then lead to their 90-day retention. Hugely, yeah. But they've also got the highest propensity to pay for a personal trainer to get the results of one, because that's when their motivation is high. Yes. So we've now shoehorned that technology there to fix the operator's gap, particularly in the in the in the high value, low-cost model, where that induction doesn't exist, that onboarding doesn't exist. Yeah. And that damages PT retention as well as member retention. So that brown AI solution, I honestly feel the last four to six years of being obsessive over how to fix this problem has now been a lot through the through through through AI, uh through the combination of obsession and new technology.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:47

I mean, uh as an operator, that that that does make perfect sense. You know, the onboarding system that you're mentioning does solve a problem. And it does ultimately solve a problem if we get those members into personal training and a higher percentage of our members into PT, that does solve 90-day retention and long-term retention beyond that. So, you know, as a gym owner, that does and obviously you know that I something I'm interested in anyway, uh, with yourself, it does solve a problem. So where does this go now? What's the next thing?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:22

Um, we're building the infrastructure in the health and fitness space around uh the GLP1 and peptide assisted space. So the next uh the next big boom is the people that need to be connected to uh a person, a gym, a PT, a solution uh because of the growth of GLP1 and peptides, which is um another the macro chains that I talked about earlier over the next five to ten years. Yep. So we've got key strategic partnerships so that we can build the UK's largest database of people on GLP1 and peptides to connect them with with the gym industry and creating that bridge between peptide GLP1 usage and gym care.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:07

Um so is that is that via sort of geographical area? So if you're on GLP1s in Halifax, you'll be connected to a strength training practitioner at a gym in Halifax. Is that how it's going to work?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:18

Yeah, post-code demand. Post co-demand to to local personal trainers and and gyms. And that's where we see a huge strategic opportunity to to help people early in their journey because it's preventative care. Um, and we all know preventive care for for somebody that is going to go on rapid weight loss drugs with very, very little guidance of knowledge, need access to a personal trainer to mitigate those those key health markers.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:49

And it'll initially change the status quo as well. On what people are doing now, is they're not applying the training because they see it as a one or the other thing. I can either work this hard to achieve this goal or I do this, it gets the same goal, which obviously we know that that day doesn't correlate. You need to have both to get the benefits of both.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:07

Yeah, I mean, it it's it's a perfect storm for us, to be honest, because we identified the longevity and health span benefits of not doing strength training and uh and of doing strength training, and that's just now just compounded by a bunch of people that are ill-advised, it's not their fault, they're ill-advised, and actually you might be losing weight, but your health markers are going down. Yeah, what weight are you losing? Well, yeah, yeah. But the mindset of somebody who has struggled all their life to lose any kind of weight is the scale weight isn't it's an obsession. And and and and it's that it's and and I don't and I don't want to take that away because there are more benefits than negatives of using the GLP ones, okay? Yes, 100%, okay. And the psychotic benefit of somebody being able to realize their dream of being 10, 20, 30 kgs lighter, and the benefit that'll have on them. Heart and their mental well-being and the and their confidence and everything. And I don't I don't want to knock that, but they're ill-advised, and actually, you're also going to reduce your potential lifespan and your health span. What you want to do is find that balance, and all that takes is 60 minutes of strength training with adequate protein, and then you're going to get what you need. Yeah. And that's it. It's it's not about knocking people doing it at all, because I I believe it has a place and I believe that it's warranted, but it's about educating and making it easier for people to do what they need to do alongside it in the most frictionless place possible.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:36

Do you think there's obviously over time there'll be more and more access to this with not only GLP1s but let's call it TRT access to because on the low level or the street level of edible externoids that are available in the market now, you can't stop it. But is there an education process with that as well that can help people get educated on how to access and run that properly as well?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:01

Well, I'm glad that TRT is getting mainstream coverage as it should be. I think that underground TRT is bad. I think that correctly dosage prescribed TRT is good. Yeah. And I think that peptide assisted training is a huge opportunity for personal trainers and operators. So one of the benefits of Braum creating through AI this infrastructure around this whole space is that if I'm on TRT or GLP1 or anything, I want to know that that personal trainer knows how to deal with people that are peptide assisted. Because you will treat me completely different, and you should do for somebody that isn't. As that's a huge, huge opportunity for personal traders to increase their value and operators to increase their value proposition.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:49

Yep. No, they're not. It's it's one of the things that you don't consider to be a problem until it's a problem, right? Because once it flooded onto the market, it were almost like overnight, how crazy it went. And I think the initial benefits were in your face, people losing weight, which is great. But then over time, people started realizing the negative sides of it. This lady was bodybuilding an experiment where she was on Monjaro, and she had a lot of muscle mass, but a little bit of fluff, and she lost the fluff and the muscle mass, and it was quite damaging psychologically. So to bring that forward and give people another realm of where you can get that help because it all seems like it's in different parts, like private healthcare and the NHS. You get a blood test of private healthcare, but NHS won't touch you, and it's you've got to bridge that gap where it's healthcare. They all they all should be speaking to each other.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:39

If you look at the combination of all the things that we've talked about so far, you can't help but get insanely excited about the opportunity of the gym industry and personal training over the next 10 years. And that in a world where everybody's talking about AI taking our jobs and GLP meaning people don't go to the gym, yeah, is actually a stark reality of what's the opportunity. And I think that the gyms and the operators that really, really understand that early will be the biggest winners because in-person experience, access to more strength training, removing all the friction of how a member can speak to a PT and making gyms more profitable and better.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:22

Sorry, so um, so from a PT standpoint, then it do they is it the gym that sort of does the membership with the brawn, or is it the PT itself, or how does that work with who gets the split we're the technology layer that sits between the gym operator and the PT.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:42

Yeah, we connect members to the PT. So you join Miles' gym, we will be able to create demand signals of what that person wants to achieve, why they've joined the gym, what their goals are, and then we'll match them to a personal trainer that suits their profile. Right. It's done instantly. Right. So we're looking at connecting people to PTs within 24 hours of them joining the gym, but meeting the member where they are, because no one actually transacts 65% of our transactions are done outside the gym, they're done outside of ours when they're at your gym because people don't want to be sold on the gym floor. Yeah, yeah. But what they want to do is know that actually that person knows me, knows what I want, yeah, and I've already got a personal connection. And you could do that through hyper-personalised AI models, which is what we built.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:23

And is there uh is there things available in educational purposes for PTs wanting to get more educated on GLP ones and well, so this is the first so what so that's that's another thing for me where you're gonna get this high quality of personal trainers, obviously a small margin at the beginning.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:40

So where and plugging it into our education plan.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:43

Exactly, exactly. That's where I'm going. Obviously, we do his own PT courses, could be something that we looked at as an addition to add as the course. So I'm just thinking along the our own business to be honest.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:53

So yeah, no, I mean it's uh it's an area that I think still we're still 18, 24 months away from that, really becoming mainstream because it's bodybuilders that are mainly using uh the GLP ones uh and uh and peptide. So yes, we're still ahead of the curve, yeah, but that opportunity is there for PTs now to one differentiate themselves, yeah, to get educated upfront before it before the big boom. But two, your customer is the one that's already spending a couple hundred quid a month on a fat loss or a peptide assisted cycle. They've all they've already got the propensity to spend, and therefore that's the customer that you want to be speaking to, and you shouldn't be undervaluing your PT proposition, you should be marking it up because you can help them better than anybody else.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:38

Yes. Any other trends you see in the next 12-18 months? I think that's enough, isn't it, Miles?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:44

Yeah, I think we've got enough there. We hear about how you more. Any other trends? I I think that what am I interested in? I don't know if there's trends. What the premium bodybuilding gym space is one that I'm really interested in right now. Um we've seen a lot of growth within the the low-cost um high value model. Yeah. We've seen the health club market struggle, I think. Yeah, kind of premium health club top end. Yeah. Uh we've seen the mid-market, it's got winners and losers, and then you've got this kind of high rocks club phase, which is coming, and I think that'll come and go. The premium bodybuilding gyms are really, really interesting for me. I wonder what's I wonder what's going to go on there. Because I think there's a greater propensity of people that are willing to spend between that£40 and£60 per month gym membership for a different kind of experience in I think it's the longest lasting as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:48

So throughout every fad there's been CrossFits and Hyruxes, the one that's always stayed has always been the bodybuilding.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:54

Yeah, and and and there's like, I mean, Ultraflex in in in the north kind of really set that trend. Yeah, and there's been lots of followers of that model. You've then got many, many others that are following that model as well now. Yeah, NRG, uh the Foundry, which are are growing really, really aggressively. Um, and what that shows is that there's still a huge space for more gyms, which I think is brilliant. Yeah. But actually, what we're seeing is we're seeing people transition from a lower cost model that are actually willing to now spend£20,£30, which are nearly double their gym membership, to be in a more premium space. But actually, that premium space, you look at it, it's weights and plates. Yeah, it's not sauras, it's not swimming clubs, yeah, it's not all of that. They're nice to have, but actually they'll pay more for that experience. And for me, I think that's brilliant for the industry. Uh, because I think that it means that you're gonna have a better distribution of people, you're gonna have your beginner gyms, and you're gonna have your more kind of committed gym members, which means that as a customer, I can choose what I want, which is which is great.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:01

Yes, which I I think people saw, uh, you know, I have conversations with gym owners for the last five, ten years. A lot of people saw the gym and the budget gym sector as a threat, and they've looked at it completely the wrong way around. That gives a low barrier to entry for people who don't go to a gym.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:19

Correct.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:20

And once they realise I want something a little bit better, maybe better equipment, more variety, better plates, better bars, they're then willing to go to that next tier up, which is probably, like you said, 30 to 60 pounds a month rather than 20 pounds a month. Yeah. Because like a car, there's tiers when you go to a car dealership. Why can they not be in gyms?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:40

Yeah. There's no reason why it can't be. But the trend that that brings was I've already, and it's the the the the data isn't conclusive, but you're seeing members follow PTs. Yeah. So you're seeing members move from gym to gym because of PTs. So what the premium bodybuilding gyms are starting to prove is that actually if I and I won't mention any names because some of these are customers, but if I go to a a low-cost uh operator, yeah, and a PT builds their business there, and then the PT moves to a premium bodybuilding gym because that's what they want to do. It's better suited for their business. Yeah, the members move. And I'm seeing that time and time again, and I'm seeing more and more operators understand that actually if I make myself more attractive to PTs, yeah, I'm gonna get more members, and those members are more loyal, and also with that comes a community. Yeah. So that is almost like a secondary trend of the growth of these premium bodybuilding gyms. And the big difference now is that we've had the Sawdress gyms in the past, and they were not profitable, a lot of Nint Sustain, and it was an old man's gym, but they didn't have PT businesses within them, and they were very, very dependent on members who keep coming back. It was actually these new premium bodybuilding gyms have got high profile PTs, the Stamp is PTs, quality PTs with loyal following. Yes. Actually, that's a very, very sustainable business. So that's an interesting space. So that that mid-market growth shows that the market overall is getting bigger as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:11

Yeah, well, I think 16% of the UK have a gym membership at the last stats I looked at, and that's growing from 11, 12, 16. I think we're gonna get to a point, hopefully in the next five years, where you pass 20% of the population have a gym membership. And I think that's gonna be a good place, and especially that's there to service the GLP one.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:32

Well, 30, 40% of the market, uh the consumer audience will be on a GLP one. Yes. So if there's only 20% of the gym uh of the adult membership um adult uh audience with a gym membership, yeah, we're not doing a good enough job.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:49

No, we're only servicing 50% of the just those people, aren't we?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:52

Correct, correct. So as that ecosystem grows, we should see a third, we should see a third of the UK pop adult UK population with a gym membership. With a gym membership. And that's the macro change. Yes. Because that you can't argue against kind of that pull.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:09

Yeah, because the logic fits, doesn't it? Yeah. As one goes up, it's going to drag the other with it.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:13

Yeah, well, I I think strength will be the healthcare. That's the that's kind of that's what the science is like.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:18

Let's just hope it hope it isn't. I and I genuinely believe that it can be, and it I think it should be.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:24

I think it will be.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:26

So I think it will be. Shall we wrap up there?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:28

Yeah, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:29

So Hill, thanks for coming on. Thank you. Really, really interesting. Thank you. Really interesting, mate. Thank you so much. Cheers, mate.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:36

Thank you very much. Cheers, guys, thank you, thank you, everybody. Cheers.