Talk with Toby: Real Life. Real Faith.

Talk with Toby Ep 1 - Scott Lanigan- Curious About Faith? Start Here.

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What does it actually look like to live out your faith in real life? Not the polished version. The real one.

In our very first episode, Toby sits down with Scott Lanigan, lead pastor at Trinity Church, home to Kelowna’s largest congregation. But don’t let the title fool you. Scott is as real and down to earth as they come and this conversation proves it.

Toby also gets personal, opening up about her own journey back to faith and what that’s actually looked like. No filter. No perfect answers. Just an honest conversation about life, doubt, purpose and what faith can look like in the middle of it all.

Whether you’re testing the waters, coming back after a long time away, or deeply rooted in your faith, this conversation is for you.


🎙️ Talk with Toby — Real Life. Real Faith.
New episodes drop Tuesdays.


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SPEAKER_02

Where to even start? This conversation is for you. Well, welcome, Scott.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you, Toby. So great to be here.

SPEAKER_02

Well, thank you for being my first guest.

SPEAKER_00

That's, you know.

SPEAKER_02

You didn't even know what you were getting into.

SPEAKER_00

So I, you know, A, honored to be the first guest. B, uh, a little apprehensive. You know, you go, like, what's gonna happen? Where's she gonna do? Where are we gonna go?

SPEAKER_02

Is anyone gonna watch this? Does she have an audience? Well, we're gonna find out.

SPEAKER_00

We're gonna find out in a glorious fashion.

SPEAKER_02

Listen, you have an audience. You lead the Okanagans' largest church, largest congregation. And I think what people love about you, because anywhere I go when I say your name, and I've been saying it because of this. I don't talk about you all the time. But they all say, Oh, I love Scott. And I think it's because the way you preach is so down to earth and relatable. And so it relates to the people who've been going to church for years, but it also relates to somebody who's maybe just exploring.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And so is there kind of a resurgence? You and I have talked about this. There's is there a resurgence of uh like newbies coming to church?

SPEAKER_00

There is, and in particular, I think it was led by a younger generation, like Generation Alpha and Millennials. And part of that, I think, was the headlines and social media, as they are, you know, kind of inundated with what's going on in the world. Actually, uh a few neuroscientists have talked about right now that we live in this perma crisis world where almost every time you open your phone or if you're a TV watcher, it's just it just feels like everything's falling apart. And I think they were like, okay, there's gotta be something outside of this world that is bigger than what's going on. And so it wasn't more about the question I'm finding with folks about is God real? It's just is God good? And that's what a lot of people have been asking. And so they come and listen to go, you know, is it possible that there's a God that's better than than this or leaders? Because, you know, from politicians to athletes or celebrities, that you know, they're failing to and and things are falling apart, organizations and institutions. So they're like, hey, there's gotta be something above myself. And I think internally there's a hardwiring for the eternal. And so because of that, I think there's a longing, and if you're willing to scratch it, that's where people come. And so, yes, more and more new people that perhaps had an experience like growing up, maybe in a you know, grandma went to church, my parents were gonna be a child. We're gonna talk about how churches change for sure. For sure. And so they were doing those things, and then they're like, is it still the same or is it different?

SPEAKER_02

And I'm gonna say that it is different. Yeah, it is different. But here's the thing: let's just back up a little bit because you can log on to TikTok, onto Instagram. There is faith-based content everywhere now, and I feel like that's where a lot of people are consuming it, right? It's it's brief, it's to the point, it's it's just it's fast, it's how you know young people consume information. So it kind of scares me sometimes because anybody can get on there and just start talking. So, what do you say to somebody? And we're gonna talk about actually being in church in a moment, but what do you say to somebody who has watched all this stuff and and they and they're they're taking it in? And and what what do we I mean, discernment is something, but what do we need to watch out for?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, those, you know, everybody is looking for a platform, I feel these days. And so every young kid, like I'm sure your kids and my kids are like, man, if I could only be famous like that on YouTube, especially like when Coachella happens, like all the influencers get to go to Coachella, right? Yeah, and they're like, I want to be an influencer. And I think people then take that, and no matter the sector, and religion is a big one right now, and faith, they're like, hey, I'm gonna be a pro. And and they kind of acclaim themselves to be a pro because they've done a bit of research or they've tried something. And so it's almost like the latest and greatest, right? About what we should do or what we should from a health perspective. And I pe I think people apply that to a faith perspective too. And you do have to be careful because not everybody's a pro. Often I'll see, like I'll read a reel or a TikTok, somebody will send to me, and then uh one of the comments is, hey, pastor here, or hey, theologian here, and they just kind of correct or go, there's perspective. That said, there's so many different perspectives when it comes to faith, too, depending on the stream you're involved in. And so it makes it confusing and difficult. And I think it's it's uh a skill to not just focus on the people, but focus on what's behind the people. And in my particular stream, we follow Jesus. And so I'm like, hey, look to Jesus, don't always look to the people. And so that's the best way to explore, right? So if you're wondering or questioning, well, search him out. And if you search him out, that's where you're gonna find the answers, as opposed to everybody that's got their opinion about what it should be.

SPEAKER_02

That's right. Because there's a lot of people who go to church on Sunday, but don't take that.

SPEAKER_00

They could, you know, it's showing up, it's doing the thing, it's right in the grocery. Whitewash too. There you go, right?

SPEAKER_02

We just came out of Easter, though, that's the whitewash too. Well, let me just tell you, because I want to share, because we've known each other several years. Our daughters grew up together. Yes, that's right. And so you've probably never knew me as somebody of faith.

SPEAKER_00

No, like when we would talk, uh, we've always gotten along, and our our kids used to hang out actually. Went to the same school together up in Kettle Valley, all the things. And so we've known each other, but not necessarily in sitting down and having a conversation like we're having today. And so I I'm not surprised that people come from different backgrounds of faith, but uh, we I don't think it ever talked about yours.

SPEAKER_02

No, yeah, we we never have. No, and the thing is, I grew up in church and very different kind of church. Again, we'll talk about that. But just a few months ago, well, November, so late last year, my 50th birthday trip off to thank you, Spain, and then we ended up in Morocco in Casablanca, and I was very excited to go to Casablanca. It was sort of going to be the highlight of the cruise for me. It was Casablanca and spice markets and Aladdin and that whole thing. So we signed up for this tour that took you to all the places, you know, the the bar from the Casablanca movie, of course. And uh the mosque and the church and and all that. So we're doing all that, and then we're learning about the exodus of Christians. Yeah. When the French left, Christianity left to the point where churches are just a shell, they have events there, right? But we went to the big mosque. I think it's the third largest mosque in the world, and it was stunning. Yeah, you know, it just but over the top.

SPEAKER_00

It's amazing.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and so I asked the tour guide, I said, Why do they go to such extreme like this? And he said, Well, they just want to show that they're they're bigger and better than Christianity. So I was like, Oh. And then there were gonna be 50,000 people there that afternoon on a Friday to worship so that stuck with me because they show up in that faith. Yeah, and I was like, Well, where's my commitment? Like, where did that go? Where when did that walk out the door? Where I always felt like I was guided by something bigger, but you know, I went through the you know, crystals and all that, and no shame to anybody. But I for me it was always it just never and so I came home and I could not get it out of my out of my head. And then a few weeks after being home, a friend's son said something casually, he's like, Yeah, I'm gonna go to church tomorrow. And I feel like my head whipped. And I I just wanted to say, Oh, I'll come with you, which would have been a bit weird. But I the next week we were all there. And I haven't, and and I've just had this, huh?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But it's not just church. No, it's it's that relationship with with Jesus. That's such a great story, Toby. And well, it it it really is, honestly, because even my kids are going, Mom, like what is this now? I was like, it's not like being vegetarian in 2020. That's right. That's such a different I'm like, you can't quite compare it.

SPEAKER_00

That that was always that was dangerous. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But so it was it's a coming back, and that's it, just feels very good. So, where did you grow up? Did you grow up in faith, like right from day one? Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, probably in the womb. Uh you know, that's where it started for me. That said, I came from a pretty hyper-conservative environment. So it was a small town, Saskatchewan, and like everybody in the town was a person of faith. And if you weren't, then it would be kind of like, how come, you know? And so but it was very um structured, controlled. This was right, this was wrong, this was good, this was evil. You know, it was very specific.

SPEAKER_02

I think a lot of small town prairie people. Right. I think the same thing, right?

SPEAKER_00

And there was a list of rules and a list of do's and don'ts, right? And so that I think was the formation for a lot of people of faith. And, you know, as you see the world, as you start aging out of being a kid, you're like, hang on a second, is that really all there is to it? And for many, that's where the word would be deconstruction. That's where they just started kind of peeling back the layers. And a lot of people just pitched it, you know, and they're like, forget this, because that doesn't work. This doesn't make sense to me. That's right. I can't relate to people or my friends. And so for me, uh, I went through that process, but I I actually felt like there was more to it than just the rules and the have-tos. I felt there was a relational equity piece that I longed for and I was kind of searching for. And that's where my perspective changed, particularly kind of in uh late high school, early, early university years, where I just started going, okay, this was my parents' deal, this is my grandparents' deal, what's my deal? And and I just said, I'm gonna explore it. And so I kind of put all my cards on the table and just said, all right, let's just let's take a look at other religions, let's take a look at other ways of being. And and I chose to to pursue this one because I believed the Jesus way was the best way.

SPEAKER_02

Well, okay, so let me ask. So you went to university, but it wasn't, it wasn't to be a pastor. No, I did. I did, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I got a theology degree and an education degree. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And so when did you know that?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I knew probably in that late, late teens, early 20s, that I knew this was gonna turn into something that was um gonna be directing my career path. That said, I always I'm a bit of an entrepreneurial spirit. Like I love trying new things and doing different things. So I didn't feel like I wanted to be sequestered in the confines of an institution, aka church. Okay. Like I had to do that. I always pushed the limit. Like I'm I'm kind of a free spirit. I enjoy just hanging out, you know, all the things, right? And so I was like, you know, I would say if somebody thought of a priest or a pastor, they would go, well, I I bet you right now they'd have a picture in their mind of what they would think. And I don't think my old Anglican robes, yeah. All good things, but I kind of don't fit that necessarily. And so for a while I tried to fit myself in that uh square, and I was a bit of a round peg, you know, and I was like, hmm, how do I do this? And so I realized I had to make it my own and I had to do it in my own way. And so particularly I work with students at first, and I did that, but a community-based. And so I did it within church confines and without. And so for me, that really helped me own it in a deeper way and become mine, not just somebody else's. And then that led me to a path of doing it full time. But my CV is a little bit unique. I'm a collectic. So I was in church in I went a couple different places. I worked in a couple different uh, I was in um Abbotsford and then Richmond, and then we moved to Calgary and I worked in a in a church in Calgary, and then I left it. And I was like, you know, I don't want to be like a one-trick pony. Like I only want to be in with church people or faith things all my life. I want to go like what I want to expand that. Because what if one day it doesn't have charitable status and all those things? So I jumped into HR and I I can see that. Yeah, I volunteered with this company. It was a lumber company in Alberta. I said, hey, I I don't want to try my chops at this. And long story short, they end up hiring me. And I worked there for a number of years as the director of human resources at this big lumber company, and it was secondary manufacturer. And so it was so funny, Toby, because like I was the priest, right? And so everybody would come up there and they would always be careful not to say they have bomb in front of me or whatever. And I just burst out laughing. I go, come on, we're blue collar, it's all good things. And it's not even a thing, right? Let's go. And so that really helped stretch me as a person and individual, but also stretched me to see, like, hey, what are real people in a real world doing? And not church people in a church world. And I always then, as I kind of navigated, I go, how do I bridge that? And so that's gonna be kind of my passion ever since of how do I how do I bridge for folks that aren't gonna show up on Sunday morning? Yeah, they don't care. Matter of fact, they're gonna drive by or on Springfield and Spa, they're gonna drive by and not even think twice about it. So, how do I create curiosity or or um an opportunity for people to not feel like there's an obstacle, but there's there's a welcome.

SPEAKER_02

All right. Well, that see, but I feel like you were maybe ahead of the curve on that.

SPEAKER_00

I think I perhaps.

SPEAKER_02

Well, because that's the way, that's the way it goes now. Like church, when I went to church, it was again, it was Anglican. So it was like wooden pews, dark robes, we set the altar. Like it was very procedural. And again, I know that. So church has changed.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

And do you think there's a reason for that?

SPEAKER_00

I do. I think it is people that kind of got tired of the institution, yeah, and got lost in the institution because a lot of institutions have failed us, you know, and I think churches are in the same boat. And that for a lot of people, that's why they tossed faith to the wayside because they're like, it can't be this. Is this all there is to it? Or they trusted an institution and it became toxic, or the leaders did some things that you go, you're holding a value and you didn't follow that value.

SPEAKER_02

Well, that's since we're on that right now, because you do hear that from people. People ruined religion for some people.

SPEAKER_00

Right, absolutely. Right.

SPEAKER_02

But it wasn't God.

SPEAKER_00

No, that's right. You can't uh get caught up in the institution, you gotta get caught up in Jesus, right? And frankly, uh, if you spend a little time studying Jesus, the people he got most upset about were religious people, not people that didn't believe in him. It was the religious people that were doing things that weren't what he would do, his his way. And and I think it's we can't focus on the people because there are some people of faith that I don't like either, you know, or they you know, it could be on TikTok or whatever, and I'm like, I don't agree with that. And and and it would be a turnoff for me as well, and it is, and so I go, but that's not where my focus should be. My focus should be on Jesus to look at him and his way and what he did because people are imperfect, and so are institutions and so are religions. There's no perfect church, but there's healthier options, and there's authentic options. And I think where we're seeing a resurgence is those churches and leaders who are doing that. They're going, here's a healthier way, here's a more authentic way. We don't have perfection, we never are, and we talk about that. We're not perfect people, we're just real people. And we talk about that at Trinity. Like we don't, we don't try because I'm I am gonna say some stupid things. I'm not, I'm gonna wake up some days and I'm gonna be rude and I'm gonna be ignorant and we're gonna do all the things. Or speeding, as I recall on particular levels. And it's I call it intentionally driving. You know, I think you just gotta be intentional, you know what I'm saying? You were focused. You were focused. It's a light, maybe it's just a light honk, not a loud honk.

SPEAKER_02

Not a full-on road rage.

SPEAKER_00

If Carla was here, my wife, she would have a lot to say about that.

SPEAKER_02

I love that. Well, maybe we'll have Carla here one day.

SPEAKER_00

But when we talk about so do you think church had to change? It had to, yeah. It had to because people were leaving in droves and they weren't interested in it because they're not interested in that form of it. And I think those leaders that were courageous enough to go, okay, what could it be? And how could we um move in a direction that people are gonna be welcome to that? And that said, I think COVID also had an impact that people realized I, you know, when we were, you know, sequestered or we were quarantined and those things, and people just longed for relationship. And and I believe, and uh, I follow the fact that we're actually built for relationship, that internally in each one of our DNA, we're built for relationship with others, we're created for relationship with others, and we can speak to that in so many different we know that from a practical level, uh, that there's this longing to have a partner in life, you know. But we're I also believe we're we're built for a relationship with the eternal. And so for me, those longings I think actually kind of took root and grew in COVID, where a lot of people are like, this can't be it. This can't be that I just am, you know, quarantine for people. That's why a lot of people broke quarantine because they they were like, I can't, I can't, I have to be with people as good or bad, as ugly as relationship.

SPEAKER_02

I know there were a lot of Bible groups that broke, right? Because they were getting together. I know, right? They just in their soul to do it.

SPEAKER_00

That's right, they needed something. And so I think that's part of that resurgence. And then I think the churches that were willing to go, hey, we need to renew our perspective and we need to be more intentional with it, and we need to be more open-handed with it, are the ones that moved forward. What's interesting actually, as you talk about Morocco and and other faiths, uh, and I think we've learned a lot from uh, you know, whether it's Islam or Sikhism or Hinduism, is that they're not they're their faith is part of who they are. There's no kind of like a separation of church and state. There's no kind of like, I'm embarrassed about it. In North America, we tend to be a little bit more, you know, hold back, or we maybe get people that judge us, or really, that's a thing, you know. Whereas in those other countries, it's a thing.

SPEAKER_02

Like that is their identity.

SPEAKER_00

It's what they do, it's who they are. And you don't know, there's downsides to that as well. But I think it's it's something to learn that, hey, it doesn't need to be this thing that's embarrassing. It doesn't need to be this thing that's gonna be uh disruptive to everything I do. It actually becomes who I am. And if it becomes who I am and I live it out in that way, that's attractive because you're becoming a better person, a better version of yourself, right? And you're living with purpose and you're living with identity. And how can you not love people who know their purpose and identity, right?

SPEAKER_02

Well, and I was listening to something this morning about it's actually when God puts a calling on you and you don't follow it. Right. It's sinful. Yeah, that's right. It's just not the best, right? But it's why I wanted to do this because I do feel like Christians don't talk about it enough. And and when I talk to people who are quite close to me and said I wanted to do this, oh, just oh, just I don't know if you should. Why? Why? To me, it it weeds out some some people that are, you know, because if you want to be the truest version of yourself, don't not talk about it.

SPEAKER_00

Right. It's so true because it's disingenuous to who you are, right? And I believe, you know, Jesus makes us the best version of ourselves. That's what I think. Because you know, it's something called uh the fruit of the spirit. So you know, there's something like and and and it just talks about you know, love and joy and peace and patience and kindness and goodness and gentleness and self-control. And I go, well, who would want those things? Like who does not want to experience somebody who's kind?

SPEAKER_03

You know, or somebody who's good.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. I go, I do. I want to be that person, I want my kids to be that person. And so I go, how can you not want that for someone else? And and like, you know, maybe sometimes I find people get a little bit of tension because they they haven't found that in themselves yet. And then maybe they go, Well, how can you find it and I haven't found it yet? Or they get caught up in that I have to believe everything to explore something. And I don't believe that. I don't believe you have to believe everything to explore like you know, vegan, right? You explore it and go, Okay. We're getting it. It wasn't the thing, the COVID-20 is not the thing. It's like I ruined my daughter's grad for you. But anyway. You explore it because you're interested in it and you're curious, and there's nothing wrong with that. And I go the same with faith, you don't have to believe everything, but why not explore something about it and just see, you know, explore that type of thing. What's it like to be just pursuing kindness or goodness?

SPEAKER_02

And it's I can tell you in the last five, six months, I have not been happier. Wow. Ever. It's just there's uh that anxiety, yeah, it truly it. I mean, there's moments, of course, of course, of course, but if you can just bring it back, and you were talking about kindness, and I just have to say, when you come to church, yeah, and really any church, it's true, there's greeters at the door, they're so lovely. And this is what I love. And you and I, when we met in the lobby, yes, and I was a bit dressed up.

SPEAKER_00

You were looking on point, but we could as to be expected, as to be expected.

SPEAKER_02

But there is people who are still dressed up, those ladies in their lipsticks.

SPEAKER_00

It's so true, it's so cute.

SPEAKER_02

And then you have the, you know, the Jen Elphas in their sweats and the Starbucks.

SPEAKER_00

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02

And so what like when did the Sunday best go away? And why and why? No, but I'm legitimately asking.

SPEAKER_00

I think that was part of that kind of uh old skin, not the new skin, you know. This is church 2.0. And that old skin was you kind of had to present a certain way because that's the way I'm at the story, Carla, my wife's grandma, you know, grew up pretty conservative church, and she was the organ player, right? So we don't necessarily have those positions in our church, but uh, she was the organ player, but they weren't supposed to wear lipstick, and so she wore red, but she broke the barriers back in the day because it's red lipstick, and so one of the church uh you know leaders came up and said, What are you doing wearing lipstick? And she goes, My husband likes it, so I'm wearing it. And I'm like, that is awesome, right? Like, you go, girl. And that's uh that is the fierceness of my own daughters and wife. But to me, it's that mentality. Why are we creating this human kind of framework when that's that making me makes me feel comfortable or a church person feel comfortable? And that's often what I think it was. And we just have to be courageous enough to go outside of that because if you come as you are, that's right. If you look at the way of Jesus, you read it, just take any he loved A, he loved parties, he went to a billion parties and he was always wanting to be fed and let's go. And his first miracle was like, you know, let's kick the wine up a notch, you know. And I'm like, mm-hmm, that's not so bad, right? Like it's just awesome. And to me, I go, he always took his kingdom to their kingdom, he always went to them. He didn't go, you have to show up looking a certain way, yeah, doing a certain thing. I'm just gonna show up in front of you and I'm gonna love you as you are, not as you should be. And and that's why I follow Jesus, and that's why our church tries to do the same thing, because we have people from all sorts of stories, dynamics, countries, experiences, ups and downs, stories that have some really difficult chapters and some incredible chapters. And I go, how can you say you all need to fit in this perfect little box? That's not fair because that's not how we're created. We're as unique as the day is long. And so I go, a church that goes, hey, no matter who you are, come on in. Because you know, that's the best place to start. So it doesn't matter what I believe or don't believe. And we talk about something you can believe before you belong. And uh pardon me, sorry, you can I did the opposite.

SPEAKER_01

You can belong before you believe.

SPEAKER_00

Wow. And uh I um I was getting passionate there. I got it. Uh, you can belong before you believe. Why? Because you don't have to believe everything. You come and feel welcome and feel part of the story, and then however that journey takes you is how it takes you. Right. And and I believe it's gonna lead you to somewhere that is where you found Toby, which is a place of peace and of knowing and of calm. And and it's interesting to me because you noted that your kids and uh friends are noticing something in you, and that and that's not because you're like out there proselytizing, it's because your countenance and who you are is growing and moving in that direction, which is beautiful. Oh well, thank you.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you. That's nice to hear. That's nice to hear from you. And well, we're talking about how you show up. I mean, look at Jesus didn't show up the way anyone thought. No, he didn't at all. So, right? They wanted a king, they got a baby.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely, right? And then he always the thing that always impressed me about him is he always leveraged his power for others. He he never took it on his own to say, hey, I've got the power, I've got the might, and so I'm gonna take control of others. He always leveraged it and said, you know what, I'm gonna serve others. I'm gonna come down to their level and I'm gonna use whatever power I have for others. And and he asked us to model the same thing too. And so if we're in a large church or a small church, we're in a place or position of power. You know that if you've been with bosses who are they're the boss, you know, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02

And they let you know.

SPEAKER_00

That's right, or the ones that are like they're so kind and they're generous and they they lead from a place of making you feel part of the team. It's so different. Like that, the companies I've worked in, I've worked in an optometric clinic, I've worked in um uh not-for-profits, I've done uh, like I said, the lumber mill. And the leaders that I worked with with there that were just like one of us, yeah, they took their role seriously and they have to be a leader. Yeah, but when they were human, oh, that changes everything. And and so to me, that's the way I try and lead as well. Because I go, man, I had somebody that I follow that does it that way. And I'm like, I don't question that. I go, I I long for that. So if I can make that part of me, then that's attractive.

SPEAKER_02

Well, let me ask you about that because there's so many new people coming to church, but they're sitting next to somebody who has walked right this journey. It's so how important is it to, number one, be part of a church family?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, you can consume online information. Totally, number one, but also to be, I don't know, led or have somebody who can kind of guide you. Somebody who's, you know, you know the woman I'm talking about, she wore the hat and the purse and the shoes and the suit, right? The jacket and skirt that were purchased together.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely, and they look on point too.

SPEAKER_02

So, you know, I just feel like those people have they have stories and they come from the old church, and it's and you know, they have their testimonies, and but like, uh is there a way to connect? It is like how important is it for them to be sitting side by side with, you know, say a 25-year-old?

SPEAKER_00

It's so important. We have something at Trinity called the table, and it really is a place, it's it's exactly what it it implies that you get your feet under a table. You eat, and then you just kind of meet people and you learn kind of like what's the way of Jesus? Like, what's the way of church? And so it's just an open conversation around kind of figuring these things out together, but the key word together, and we have a phrase called we're better together. And because we're built for that relationship, so the best way to get connected, no matter what church you're part of, no matter what community, and everybody knows that we resonate around things that we like, you know. So if you're a bike rider, you know, you go in, you go in a bike club, right? If you're a run club, why? Because we connect on those types of things, and faith's no different, right? So when you come in there, you go, and and often we don't judge the ages of, you know, if you're gonna swim across the lake, we don't go, well, you only have to be 15. You go, no, all ages. Why? Because we all can be at different ages and stages and connect on that, right? No different than church. And a matter of fact, we invite it because we can just learn so much from those people that have gone before us. And and we know that whether it's a marriage relationship, a dating relationship, whether it's uh workplace. That's why we have so many coaches and consultants, right? Because you go, you can it's why we're doing this podcast, or you're doing it because we can learn from others. And that's the whole point of faith too in church and sitting beside somebody who's you know walked a few roads and like you know, this last uh two months, Toby, I've sat with families who are on the end stages of their life where they they um invited me into their celebrations of life, and and three of them were through maid, and and others were at the end of life, and we just had these conversations, and nobody in those conversations were like, Did you see my house? It's gorge, right? You see what's in my garage? Oh, that car drove. None of them talked about it. Every single one of them said, I want my family close, my friends close. I had an opportunity, like one, she said, I just haven't talked to my one friend and friend in literally four hours before she passed away. She just wanted to call her one friend, told her how much she loved her. Why? Because we're built for that. And that's why I think church is such a beautiful place because it's one of the only spaces in the world where all demographics, all ages, all ethnicities, origin stories, and present stories can come together and be welcome and be invited and feel inclusive. And I think there's a beauty in that. Yeah, maybe the only other environment is a sporting event, but we're often yelling and screaming at other people in those events, right?

SPEAKER_02

Well, I mean, there's the the singing, right? The whole thing. And you I I often look around because I usually sit upstairs in the balcony, and I just look around and kind of take it all in, and it's like these people all believe the same thing.

unknown

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02

Like really, and this is going on in dozens of other churches in the city, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely, and such good things, like and in small towns, big towns, and all over the place, and in Anglican circles and Catholic circles and all those things. And I go, man, I just I just think it's so beautiful and powerful, and that's where a lot of people find belonging.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, right, because again, it's so many different people. So I would say to somebody that you know hasn't set foot in a church in a while, it's really not that scary. No, because it's so welcoming.

SPEAKER_00

It is, and you know what, Toby, I think that's the beauty of online too. So, like many churches have an online opportunity where you watch and you can look and you get a vibe. And and you can do that at Trinity2. You just go on YouTube and search us and you can kind of watch online first. So even if you're a little nervy getting in for the first time, watch it. You can see what it's like, you can kind of get the experience. And then I would say, yeah, give it a shot. We have coffee. So many churches do that.

SPEAKER_02

Well, you push the cinnamon buns.

SPEAKER_00

Or they're just cinnamon had they make them homemade every Sunday. I know. Maybe not the healthy option, but there's fruit too.

SPEAKER_02

But you could you could partake. Okay, so we talked about Trinity being um the biggest church in Kobona and and right up there in Canada as well. So you stepped into that. Yes. I mean, and I I I don't know the ins and outs of churches, but I mean, when you're the head pastor of a church that big, I mean, there's there's stresses, there's things like that. So how do you can you deal with that? There's back to talking about the people. I know, right?

SPEAKER_00

There's good days and bad days. It's just like anyone in any sector occupation. I'm so grateful, as I mentioned before, that I was able to jump out and wasn't a church person my whole life, you know, and I kind of manage an optometric clinic in town. And so I've been in the retail market, I've been in um multiple different uh markets and sectors, and I think that's given me a richness of understanding people. And I have so many friends. I'm a networker at heart, and so you know, I was part of Central Okanagan Journey Home Society for many years, which was the homelessness initiative in Kelowna. And I was honored to chair that board. And uh I I love those things because it keeps me embedded with real people and and they can discover that for me uh that I'm a I'm a pastor if you want to give me a title. Although I don't, you know, I don't go around as pastor Scott. I just go around as Scott because I don't think we go around and say, hey, Plumber Steve, and you know, DJ Toby.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, right. Radio host.

SPEAKER_00

I know, right? Like, hmm, uh, you know, like it radio host part of it.

SPEAKER_02

Why is it different?

SPEAKER_00

I know. Well, I think some people it's a place of honor for them. Yes. They they kind of view it as that's right, as something that's just kind of and and that, hey, I receive it, it's all great, but I'm just like like anybody else. But for me, it it does take a level of leadership, and uh I I take it seriously, so I'm always wanting, I'm a learner at heart, and so I always want to learn whether it's culturally. I'm I'm a student of culture, I'm a student of people. Um, and so I do a lot of study on uh kind of you know psychology and physiological aspects of human beings and how we how we interact and those things. So I study that. I study church culture, I study um the grander culture, students, because I think all those things feed because when you have a larger entity, you can't just kind of sit back on your haunches, you have to be progressive, and then we have a team that we have to lead to. So I believe uh leading that team is really important. So I I think to build an organization, you have to be a visionary leader, you have to kind of see what can become you, but you also have to be human. And and and so I try and be as human and authentic as possible and vulnerable. And I think vulnerable leaders are ones worth following because I know in my life that's the ones that I see. It doesn't mean they tell you everything, it just means that you can realize that they sometimes struggle or doubt. Like I sometimes have doubts in my faith, and I sometimes struggle with things that I read in the Bible or I see on TV, and and and I have to work that through my life and I realize that I'm not also gonna have all the answers, but that's okay. I don't need to. And I think that's what helps me lead in the in the best way I can at Trinity. And I love having fun. Like I think you are fun. It's just like so I weave humor into it and I go, I'm I'm myself. Because I think if I'm not myself in whatever role I'm doing, then I shouldn't be doing it. And and so for me, if I can't be myself as a leader at Trinity and then then I need to step away. But I'm also about empowering the next generation because I believe I it's not about creating my own platform, it's creating platforms for others. And and if I can do that, then I'm doing the best that I can do, right? And so that is how I believe I can lead in the best way at Trinity, or no matter what organization I'm in, and why I invite others to share that with me so I can learn from them and they can learn from me, right? Now, that being said, you know, I I do when I come down the stairs and my daughters are you like, Dad, no, you can't wear that and turn back because, you know, so I do have to learn from them what you know what clothing options to select. I try, but that is not at my own volition. That is my daughter's, and uh, I'm so thankful for them.

SPEAKER_02

Let me ask you the thing about the running shoes because the singers, everybody's everybody's got the cubes of their shoe game. Is that a thing?

SPEAKER_00

I think it's just realizing that I think it's like anybody wants to have a nice uh nice shoes. Now, we sometimes, the only times we might coordinate outfits would be like a Christmas Eve thing or a bigger deal, you know, where we have lots of people come by or Easter or something like that. Besides that, no, it's their own deal. We don't tell anybody what to wear, kind of how they do. They just like I think, but I think they're on stage. Now, to be fair, uh, and I only say this as a point of reference, not as uh anything else, but because you know, we have quite a few people that watch online and we have a lot of people in person. So I think people go, okay, there are a lot of people, there are a lot of eyes on me. So I don't want to, you know, show up like I'm in my jogging suit. And they're kind of like, so I want to be on point. So I think that's probably partly what it is.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, well, so when you're prepping for Sunday, and I think a lot of people have this misconception that your job is just Sunday.

SPEAKER_00

That's right.

SPEAKER_02

You're just kicking back.

SPEAKER_00

That's right. The rest of the week is like golden.

SPEAKER_02

But you are an official, you do weddings, you do celebrations of life, you do bedside sort of hospital visitations.

SPEAKER_00

We and frankly, it's a large organization, right, with a big budget. So we've got budgets, we have and being a not-for-profit, anybody in that sector. Yeah, you're doing that. We're part of uh networks throughout Canada and the U.S. We we have an average of about 220 kids coming on a weekend. Yeah, so there's protocols. That's right.

SPEAKER_01

Kids program.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, it's phenomenal. And so they have protocols like we have planned to protect, and so you have to be careful of those things. So they're security items. So people don't often think of those things when in the library office at the end. It's no big deal. Just you know, having a coffee, inspired for it. It'd be awesome if I could do that just every day.

SPEAKER_02

I'd be like, okay, so when do you? Because you have to obviously come up with a message.

SPEAKER_00

It's so true, right?

SPEAKER_02

And so when do you like this is what I say. Is the Holy Spirit with you when you're coming up with the message? Or is it more with you when you're presenting it? And how like how much do you write down? How much take us through that process? I find it so interesting.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's a both end. I really believe, if you believe in the Holy Spirit, I believe the Holy Spirit's with us at all times. So like God has given the little nudges, right?

SPEAKER_02

So But I'm talking about like the chills, right? Yeah, the chills, the prompts.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that happens often. So there is when it comes to study, and I won't bore people, but uh, there is the Bible's written into two, primarily two, there's three languages, but primarily two, Greek and Hebrew. And the old portion of the Bible, they call it the Old Testament was Hebrew, and then the um New Testament is Greek, and because that's just Greek in that time in the Roman culture. And so they write it in this language that is when you have the original documents that that is what our English version is based on today. You you sometimes go, what does this word actually mean? Because sometimes there's multiple. That's right. Yeah, because you can you can interpret it in English, but our English language is kind of weak when it comes to that. So you look at it, so there's study guides you can go for, and you go for theologians, and that's when I get shivers often because you're like, oh my goodness, that was so amazing. Because that word actually means means something.

SPEAKER_02

I read the book of mysteries that's right that I do every morning. Yeah, and there are words, and you it's so cool, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00

You're like, I never knew, right? And yeah, I'm always learning and I'm always growing in that. So for me, that's part of my study. That's when I get the shivers. And then I write uh uh as a lot of communicators as anybody who would present or even doing a TED talk, you people some people do it point form and bullet, some people do it manuscript. Yeah, that's the same with any type of communicator. They'll they'll maybe do a manuscript or point form. So I do I do and I that's right. See, this is what happens, just helps guide. Yeah, I wait for sometimes inspiration in the moment. So there's often something I will say in the process of communicating live that I hadn't planned or prepared. And that's I would say where the Holy Spirit comes in because I'm always prayerful before I get up. I'm like, hey, I say, God, if I'm not supposed to say something, let me forget it. If I'm supposed to be saying something, bring it up. And that and I feel like God's faithful in that, so it's pretty cool. So then I often somebody go like, I can't believe you said that. I'm like, I don't know, A. Sometimes I don't even remember saying something, or B, I'm like, well, I hadn't planned on that. And it's like that was the right thing. And I go, that wasn't me. That was just the moment. Like, actually, one of the things we do ahead of time is uh just pray for every chair every Sunday. We just pray for every chair and every door because we go, hey, we don't know people's stories, and we don't know if they're kind of abject to it or if they're exploring like you were, or if they're all in. And we're like, hey, because of that, we just want to pray that they feel welcome. And then I believe that's the place the Holy Spirit comes, is just to kind of nudge a little bit or invite us, and so uh that that's often how my prep goes. And so it's a lot of reading, a lot of studying culture. Like um, I used uh as you know, uh Artemis too uh as the NASA thing. And I was I'm a bit of a you know space nerd. You like the space stuff and so I So you believe they went to the moon? I do actually believe it. Hard to believe. I know, right? And uh so for me, like integrating that into real life because that's our lives. Like we're all caught up in that. So that's the stuff I love to do too, because I believe that's it's it takes some talent and capacity to weave those things in and make sure they match without it feeling odd or like an odd puzzle piece. Uh a study of the English language. There's lots of pieces that I think it it's a real skill set. And so I don't think you take it lightly, especially because we're a larger church and and people are coming and they're giving of their time. And I I would call it the term I would use if I was gonna use churchy term, would be a sacred trust. I think it's sacred. I think it's a sacred moment because when you're dealing with people's lives, you don't want to take advantage of that. So I don't want to have my agenda, I want to invite them to a larger story, and I think that's super important, and so that takes time to pay attention to that because I could easily, and we've seen it, and that's part of what you talked about growing up in some toxic cultures where you're like, I think that's that person giving me their opinion. I don't think it, you know, and we've all been part of that. I've been part of it too, and it doesn't sit right. And and because of platforms, a lot of people take advantage of it, and I don't think that's right, and I don't think that's wise, and I don't think that's honoring people's stories. And so for me, that's why I spend a lot of time prepping.

SPEAKER_02

I I'm so glad that you that you said that because you do be you think, okay, well, if I went to a different church and and they were talking about the same thing, it was the same message, how different would it be? But I think if you just come at it from a neutral, exactly, God-based perspective, your people are gonna take what they need from it. Because you can listen to a message one day, right, and then the the next day listen to it back. That happened to me. I was so moved by this one particular message, and then I played it back because I wanted my daughters to hear it, and as it was playing, I was like, is that the same thing? Like I didn't have that. Like I was crying and it just moved me so much. And then the next time I heard it, but obviously in that moment that I heard it, you heard what you needed to hear.

SPEAKER_00

And then now it didn't it's not no, it's it's wild to wait. So from my faith perspective, I would say um that the the Bible or the word of God or the Holy Spirit is living and active. So that that would be the differential, I would say, in some other faiths. And so meaning that there's always a newness, there's a there's a new create, there's a there's a really cool verse that says, like, hey, I I've come to make you new. Behold, I've come to make you a new creation. The old is gone and the new has come. And so it's this hey, when you enter into a relationship with Jesus, he kind of takes those the old way and invites you to a new way. And so because of that, I think there's a learning that can often happen. That's why you study the same thing and learn some new things. We well, it's a you we can that can happen in any type of societal aspect that we always learn something new.

SPEAKER_02

Or music, even right, like at some point a song gets you very emotional and then later.

SPEAKER_00

I didn't know broccoli was so good for you, right?

SPEAKER_02

Like that kind of when you people talk about uh hearing God.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Well, how do you hear God?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, great question. I think it's in a multitude of ways. So um because I believe in God and because I believe that He was a creator, uh, that often creation for me. I'm uh I love the ocean. I'm a big ocean guy. And so anytime I get to be around a body water, even our lake is wonderful. It speaks to me. It really does because I just look at the beauty. I look at um even you know, you you've been in there quiet nights just sitting down on the beach and just enjoying the, you know, with someone you love, and and you're like, there's just a beauty to it, or the sunset or going for a hike up Knox Mountain, and I'm like, man, there's such beauty. And then to me, that speaks to a God who's beautiful, a God who creates. And so that to me just makes me thankful and full of gratitude. And and so, and then you know you know talking about NASA, you know, sit at night on a clear night in Kelowna, it's just stunning. And and the stars and to go, man, that you know, uh the Bible says actually God created each star and knows them by name. And I go, Oh my gosh, like that is like I can't even get my brain wrapped around that. So it makes me think of the the incredible vastness of God. So that that's a way I often get little prompts that I feel like a little nudge. So for me, it kind of happens like, hey, you should give a little text or a little call. And then I do believe the Bible's a great place to to discover God's voice, much like you've been doing. You just you read it and it it comes alive, and you're like, wow, there's something beautiful about that and and convicting and often. And it's convicting of ways that I've kind of got off the mark or ways that I need to kind of come back.

SPEAKER_02

And so there's a look at it and go, Oh, he was talking to the Israelites. That's right. That's right. And then you're like, Well, I guess I couldn't. That's right.

SPEAKER_00

Maybe um I'm not sweating, and are you sweating? Right? I wasn't being disobedient. That's right. It's all good. Never mind. Just look ahead. Don't look at me. It's so dramatic.

SPEAKER_02

But it's just so interesting to me how a year ago I would have had no interest to sit down and read the Bible. What's the what and I started in the Gospels, I did not start in Genesis.

SPEAKER_00

Well played. That's where you should start. I would say John. Great place to start.

SPEAKER_02

See, I did it in order, but I get that it was well played.

SPEAKER_00

It's the one of the easiest ones to read in this book. Because John's kind of like a down-to-earth bro, and he loves, we talked about it in Easter, it's a cute little story. So they talk about Easter morning, the resurrection. So uh, and these two disciples, Peter and John, run down there, and John's like, just for the record, I arrived first. And I that's why I love John. Because he's like, is that really necessary? Not really, but he's like, just want people to know.

SPEAKER_02

Well, just even seeing little clips of the chosen.

SPEAKER_00

That's right. Yes, right. Right?

SPEAKER_02

There's such uh you could see, I mean, assuming that there was humor back then. But I love how they depict it that way and that they were were not perfect. In fact, Jesus was annoyed by them.

SPEAKER_00

It's so so often. Are you that thick? I know, right? Are you an idiot stick? Why are you talking in parables? Right, it makes no sense. And honestly, the gospels are great, and that's just the what those are are the first hand accounts of people and Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Those are the four guys, and there's more of them, they're called the disciples. And but they had a firsthand account, and so they documented it. And the cool thing is they all documented differently. Yeah. Matthew was a tax collector.

SPEAKER_02

Uh Luke he was very, he's very detailed.

SPEAKER_00

Very detailed. Same way, and Luke was a physician, and so he actually talks about it from a very uh kind of medical mindset. And so it's fascinating. And then John is about the greater story and the grander narrative Jesus, and he wants to give a great picture. So the cool thing is they're not identical, they're they're unique, and that tells you it's a firsthand here's my first hand experience. And and I want to tell you what happened, and this is this is what I recall. And that's why sometimes the stories can be a little bit different. Yeah. Because perspective. That's right, it's perspective, and that's what it is. And so that's a great place to start. And it's intriguing when you read those stories.

SPEAKER_02

And so, where would you suggest someone go from there? Yeah, like I would Acts is interesting.

SPEAKER_00

Axe is really cool. So the gospels, they kind of tell these firsthand accounts, and then Acts is kind of like when the church started, and that's why it's really interesting to realize how difficult it was. And the fact that it even exists today is a little bit mind-blowing because it was a Roman-controlled culture, and matter of fact, they were killing people left, right, and center that believed otherwise.

SPEAKER_02

Those apostles, the disciples, like the I was reading about how most of them died.

SPEAKER_00

Right, died. Yeah, it's it's pretty traumatic. And uh, some of them were beheaded, some of it had all sorts of things. But you go, okay, what would cause, you know, these fishermen, these tax collectors, these uneducated dudes to actually give their life to that? And that that to me always stops me a bit in my tracks, right?

SPEAKER_02

I mean, gosh, it's still happening today. It's still happening today, right?

SPEAKER_00

So it's so true in other countries, and that's why we're so grateful.

SPEAKER_02

We are so that we can sit here and talk about it openly.

SPEAKER_00

It's so true. And that's where like this is an honor. And you know, we've got an employee that um she just started a little while ago and she's from Ukraine, and so she just, you know, in the latest um bombings, her home church got destroyed, right? And so you kind of go, man, and she just goes, it's hard sometimes to kind of kind of rectify that and split that out and just go how grateful we are in North America. And maybe that's some of our our uh that freedom maybe is some of our Achilles heel because we we're not forced to kind of come to Christmas.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, we're a bit fast and loose with it all.

SPEAKER_00

Right. So that's why I'm so proud of you and others who any time, and if this can help others to kind of go, well, maybe well that's what I just say.

SPEAKER_02

If someone's curious, right, right, because I can tell you it started as curiosity for me, but it built very rapidly. And that's what I think when when the Holy Spirit is now not just in you, but now it comes on you. On you, right? But you don't really have a choice. Right.

SPEAKER_00

No, you don't, and you start like you said, you start doing things you weren't normally doing.

SPEAKER_02

You can have these microphones appeared and these lights and here and here.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so the gospels then Yeah, Acts, and then you know Like what about Isaiah? He comes up a lot, he does, so he's called a prophet. Yeah, and so there's there's called major prophets and minor prophets. The only difference is the size of book.

SPEAKER_02

So that's so it's not like how grand or non-profit.

SPEAKER_00

So well, we did a story on Jonah. That was wild, which is really wild, it's really deep. Um, but yeah, Isaiah's great. And now, to be fair, for some, as you get into those places, they can be a little overwhelming because sometimes they use language and they're using imagery that can be a little um disconcerting in the sense of trying to figure it all out. And so you want to have like the fish in judgment. That's right, that's right.

SPEAKER_02

All the different like what's the thing, but do you think there was a fish? I'm like, well, crazy things happen.

SPEAKER_00

That's right, you never know, right? And so it's those type of things. But yeah, like Acts is great. Uh some of Paul he wrote letters, so he's one of the followers that came after the the disciples, and he wrote some letters to different churches, yeah. It's like like dealing with real-time things, like we deal with in our, believe it or not, that we deal with today, where and he's like, Hey, hey, you should pay attention to these things. He's great. There's like Ephesians and Galatians, and then some of the really incredible things are like uh poetry, which is like psalms, and it's just beautiful, and they they just create this imagery for you. And it's uh David, one of the guys in the Old Testament who was a king and a prophet, and and uh he he um it's a great movie on the angel network, right?

SPEAKER_02

I love that. I liked it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And he just his story's phenomenal, just to follow his story, and like a guy like Joseph and the amazing color technical color dream coat, right? Like real people that went experience, like following those stories and just watching what they went through and how they did it, and it's pretty profound. And so I think there's uh there's so many opportunities to to kind of discover something new.

SPEAKER_02

And so, just back to bringing this back around, you can go to church on Sunday, you can, but really it's about that daily relationship and daily it really is.

SPEAKER_00

Church is not the be all and end all. I think it's important and it's got to be part of our rhythm, but it's more than that, it's about a relationship, and that's with a relationship with you and God, and in it's not insular, so it's not by yourself. That's the whole point of others, because I think it's really interesting. Um, if you look at the story of John, at the end of Jesus' life, he's like, Hey, God, my prayer for for all these people, and by people, it means not only them, but all of us, is that they be unified, not uniform, but unified. So that means I can have different ideas and different opinions, but that we model something different, and that's the whole point of church. That you can come from one um thought perspective, I can come from another one, but we come together and go, there's a bigger narrative here, there's a bigger way, and we come together. And so it's about that personal, ongoing, daily, just kind of movement towards Jesus. That's what it is, and it's incremental, it's small steps. We talk about that a lot at training that like, hey, it's just a turning towards, like so it's heart, mind, body, and soul. So you just it just kind of like, are you turning those things towards? And the fact is we're human, we're gonna get it wrong, we're gonna make mistakes, and so that's why if you just keep doing it, you realize forgiveness is there and grace is there, and grace is there, and forgiveness and invitation and often conviction too, of like, like you said, hmm, maybe I shouldn't have done that. And what I find even like with my relationships and even with my wife, there's times when I've responded in a way that I'm like, you know, I've just kind of go, I gotta, I gotta say sorry for that. And that often I believe is just the conviction, you know, of just that's me moving towards Jesus because he invites me to do that. And so I'm a lot less, it's all about me, and a lot less uh I'm gonna be open-handed and humble about it. And I think that's that data. Isn't it nicer, right?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely. So if somebody's just listening, what would they, what could they do today to make that turn?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I would say just be curious.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

And what is what's one curious step you can take? That's what I would say. Just be curious. And so maybe it's talking to you. Maybe it's listening to this podcast each and every time it comes out. Maybe it's flipping into the Bible. That's right. Or check it out, church. Maybe like the book of John. Just just read it and just kind of open hand and go, okay, I'm gonna give it a shot. And and to me, those things, those invite you, you know, maybe you're a music person and there's something called worship music. And you can go on Spotify and just toss one on and just, you know, just start listening and going, hey, what what's a worship? There's uh groups called like Hillsong or Bethel or these places, and you just beautiful, beautiful. It is, right? And I feel it actually has the power to change an environment or a room, and you might just sit there listening to that, read some faith-based poetry, or just go for a hike and go, God, hmm, if you're real. You know, one of my favorite verses is in Jeremiah.

SPEAKER_02

Is this gonna was this the one that you were preparing? Yeah, I thought bridges works really well for me if that's okay.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. You did ask me to think of a verse, and uh, it's I have lots, but one of my favorites was is Jeremiah, he's one of those large prophets, a major prophet. And his world then was just going off the rails. Like everything was going off the rails. People were crazy, the world was crazy, the the armies were fighting, the politics were out of this world, people were trying to take power and control, nothing like we're aware of in our day. And um, that was a little facetious, by the way. And um, and and in the middle of that, he in conversation with God says, God's got this message, and the message is if you seek me, you will find me if you seek me with all your heart. And I think it's such a like what an invitation in the midst of all the world, everything that's going up and down and crazy and where you don't know who to trust or or or what's real and what's not real. But God says, hey, if you authentically move towards me, I'm gonna move towards you. I love that. And and that's it. And that's what I would say. If you authentically, not perfect perfectly, not like I gotta believe everything, just authentically, with all of your just all just like you did, if you uh you start leaning that direction, you'll find him. He doesn't leave you hanging, he's not trying to be tricky, he's not gonna be like, I'll just hide over here for a little bit. He's like, No, I'll be there. I'll be right there and you'll find me. And I think there's such beauty and freedom in that because it it it if I'm listening to this podcast today and I'm like, I'm a little sketch on this whole whole biz. Or I'm like, hmm, maybe something. Why don't you just start leaning in that direction authentically? And there's so many beautiful pathways to it. And and God says, I'm gonna find you there.

SPEAKER_02

I love that. And you you uh what what one did you do last Sunday? It was Corinth was it?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

About turn and that's right, turning towards when I knock at the door.

SPEAKER_00

That's right. Yeah, those revelation is the book, and it just says, Hey, I stand at the door and knock. And if you open the door, I come in. And it's just like it's just that simple. It's just I'm there, I'm not barging, I'm not forcing. And that's so God never forces his way on anyone. He just says, I'm here, I'm available. But if you show up, I show up every time. Guaranteed. I love that.

SPEAKER_02

And it's not always the way that we think. So just beware of that. It's not just that it's not at your beck and call, but it's it's it's for your for your betterment. Tell people how they can connect with you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Well, hey, yeah, I'm I'm always I'm around town. I live in Kelowna. So if you see me at Save on, come say hi or whatever at Costco. Or hey, come to Trinity. We're there in Sunday. I'm there every day of the week. But if you're there on a Sunday, come by. If you want to meet during the week, you can go on our webpage, Trinity Kelowna, Trinity ChurchCologna.ca, and you can click on my on my picture and send me an email. We'll answer it. We'll hang out. Uh, I love Redbird. Come say hi to Red Bird.

SPEAKER_02

That's great. That's great. I love it. See, down to earth. Thank you so much for doing this with me. I I really appreciate it. I feel like it will not that it gives it validity, but I just feel like it's nice to be in a space with someone who you can recognize, you know. And I think there's a lot of people like that in our city. And uh, you're gonna connect me with a few of them. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

I'm honored to be part of this, and especially as it's your premier episode, Toby. And I just want to say I'm so proud of you because we've known each other for a long time. And and uh you you never took that for granted. You've always been so generous and kind to me. And and then even in this exploration, you did it with such an open hand, and that's very humbling to me because uh I like I said before, I consider it a sacred trust. So I just want to honor you for that, and that you're stepping out like this courageously is pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you. Thank you so much, Scott. And thank you for joining me on Talk with Toby Real Life, Real Faith. Until next time, keep walking in faith, keep trusting God in the everyday, and may his peace meet you right where you are.