Education policy, COVID decision-making, and coalition-building with Karen Peterson.

Education policy does not move through a single decision-maker. It moves through a system.

In Episode 7 of Back Channel, Marty Carpenter talks with Karen Peterson about what most people misunderstand about how education policy gets made in Utah, why it can feel impossible for families to navigate, and how decisions actually move when parents, school boards, districts, the State Board of Education, the Legislature, and the governor’s office all have a hand on the wheel.

Karen also shares what COVID response looked like inside state government, what coalition-building in the House really requires, and why community becomes the point when the pressure is real.

🎙️ Watch and subscribe to stay up to date. New episode every Friday.

Off Script. On Record.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Few people in Utah have worked on education from as many vantage points as my guest today. She started on Utah's statewide PTA Legislative Action Committee, fighting for kids in schools at the grassroots level. That led to a role consulting for the Utah State Office of Education, and then five years as Deputy Education Advisor inside Governor Gary Herbert's office. From there, she served as Director of Legislative Affairs for Governor Spencer Cox, helping translate executive priorities into legislative action. Then she won a seat in the Utah House of Representatives herself, representing the communities she's called home for decades. Oh, and somewhere in the middle of all that, she also fought cancer and she won. Now she's heading to Southern Utah University as an assistant to the president, an institution where she earned her own graduate degree, and where she's taught as an adjunct faculty for the past six years. It's a genuine homecoming. Coming up on Back Channel, we go off script and on record with Karen Peterson. This is the Back Channel. Back channel. You didn't hear this from me. Back channel. Hey, you're not gonna quote me, are you? What channel is it on? Back channel. Off script, on record. This is a very healthy pick. What did you what did you go with?

SPEAKER_01 1:16

I went with the strawberry breeze.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

That's right. That's proven to be a popular one.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Has it really? Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Like any any non-soda, it seems like that's been the one that people go with.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Well, this is the thing. Usually I'm a Maverick girl because they're like so much cheaper than a swig. And so I always get a diet cook there. So if I actually go to Swig, then I want something.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Then you want something a little more bougie, I guess is the term.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

A little bougie from Swig.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

I really appreciate you being here. It's there's so much I want to talk to you about. Not only um some places where our careers have intersected, but some new things going on with you. But I think for our audience, why don't we start with a little bit of uh about your background? Okay. Uh I I think of you and I think Clinton. Yes. Is Clinton home and has it always been home or where were you born and raised?

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Clinton has not always been home. I am a Davis County girl.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

County girl. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

For sure. Um I was born bountiful, raised there until about nine. Then we moved to Sacramento. I lived outside Sacramento until he graduated from high school and then wanted to come back to Utah, go to college, so I went to Utah State. And then we moved to Seattle. My husband's with the Department of Defense, so we were on a naval base up there, and then we were ready to come back to Utah and he went to Hill and we came to Clinton.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Awesome. We're in the same club then because we grew up in Davis County, but did not go to high school in Davis County. So even though you feel like a Davis County person, people will ask, well, in my case, are you a Dart?

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Or in your case, I'm gonna say like a pro at the time it would maybe have been a Falcon?

SPEAKER_01 2:36

Clearfield Falcon.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Well, Clearfield, yes, but did you grow you said you grew up in Bountiful?

SPEAKER_01 2:41

I was born in Bountiful.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

You were born in Bountiful, but you grew up in Clearfield. Okay. So you're a Clearfield person who's not a Falcon.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

And I'm a Caesville guy who's not a Dart.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

But now I've had three kids be Falcons, so you know.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

And was that a big deal to you? Did you like that your kids went to the high school like where you grew up?

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Um I mean it the we we moved when I was so young that I didn't never felt any connection to the It feels like Davis High is a little different in that sense.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Davis High feels like very much a thing that people who have gone there, it's a big deal to them that their kids uh go back. But that's probably because you have fifth generation dogs.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

And my husband grew up in the Air Force, so he went to 100 million schools.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

So bounced around a lot.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Um So grew up in in the Davis County area. You and I intersected for the first time in the Herbert administration. Yes. Um but before the Herbert administration, a a lot of sort of education touches in your background. Um tell me sort of like professionally what you did leading up to the Herbert administration.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Well, it's really interesting. I really had not done any education policy before I was hired as the education policy advisor for Governor Herbert.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

So uh But you had some PTA in the state.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Yeah, I did some PTA with my kids, um, got involved with some of the state PTA stuff when my kids were in school. And that's how I met Tammy Pfeiffer, who was the governor's education advisor at the time, um, who ended up bringing me on. But really, um I was home with my kids for about 10 years before I came to work for Governor Herbert. I did a few odd jobs here and there, a little bit of program auditing for the state board on trust lands things and stuff, but mostly I was home with my kids for 10 years. And when my baby went to kindergarten, I decided, okay, I'm ready to go back to work. It's been great to be home, but now these kids are in school, I'd like to go back professionally. But I was a little unsure on how to jump back in. So I decided to get an MPA, my master's in public administration, and I found the SUU's program, and it was all online, and I thought, okay, this is doable, and this maybe gets me back into the workforce. So actually, I called Tammy Piper and asked for a letter of recommendation for grad school. And a couple of months later she said, Do you need like a professional project or an internship or something for your degree? And I said, Yes, I need a professional project. She said, How about working for me as a professional project? So that's what happened.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Yeah. Well, that is the way to go. You get the letter of recommendation, but instead you end up with a job.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Well, but then I was also enrolled in grad school at that point. So for a sh a short moment there when we worked together, I was on the city council in Clinton. I was going to grad school and I was working for the governor. And I had three small children, and my eye twitched for a year.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Yeah. So as much as you set it up to be a story of like, oh, I was just a I was just work home with my kids, and then boom, I was in the governor's office. You were on the city council at that time.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

So what made you want to run for city council? Because most people who've done that uh agree that uh whether they enjoyed it or not, it's mostly signing up to have your neighbors be mad at you.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

It is a really interesting experience, but I actually really loved being on the city council.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

What'd you love about it?

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Um I loved that you had a real impact on the people in your community. I I love that, you know, people were getting in traffic accidents at 3,000 West and you worked with Uda and got a light there. You'd really see the accomplishments and really, you know, make um impactful changes on people's daily lives. And really, your quality of life comes from your local government, right? That you're you have clean water to drink, you have good schools for your kids, you have um good roads to drive on. That's a lot of your quality of life.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Wow. So you jump right, you're finishing up grad school or you're in grad school, and then suddenly you're in the governor's office as well. Um that's a pretty intense place to be. There's a lot going on in a governor's office that I think people outside of a governor's office, it's just this quiet office down on the second floor. But there's a lot going on there and you know throughout the state, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

Um but before I talk about the governor's office, I want to talk about working with Tammy Piper. Uh what did you love about working with Tammy?

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Oh my gosh, I call her my other mother still. I still talk to her regularly. She's my other mother. Um, Tammy is all passionate all the time. And and we were really great team because um, while I'm a passionate person, I am an uber logical person, right? I'm always the, okay, that's great. How are we gonna get there? Right. And so we were really good team because she had the big vision, she had um the pom-poms uh, you know, to cheerlead some of those initiatives and work with uh superintendents really great at building relationships. And I could kind of do the policy work to get um some of those things done.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Did Tammy ever tell you the rule we had in the office related to Tammy? Well there's a number of number of Tammy was not allowed to meet with the governor within one hour of a time that he was supposed to meet with the media.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Oh, right. Because she could get him riled up. She could get him really riled up.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

I had a hard time getting him settled back in to go talk to a reporter.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

Isn't that what we loved about working for Governor Herbert, which is that we could have really frank conversations with him and we could disagree and we could have, you know, real debates about what the best things were. And that's something I learned from him watching him about his willingness to say, you know, if I can't defend my position against you, I'm not gonna be able to defend it in the public, so give me what you got.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Yeah. You know, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

I loved that about him.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Yeah, it's how we did media prep too. We would come in before the governor's monthly press conference and brought in everybody and said, Hardest question you've got for the governor, let's do it. And hopefully we've thought of an answer for it already, or he has one in mind.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Um I did I did like that quite a bit. So that's what you learned. Um tells me a little bit about working with Tammy. Tells me a little bit about what you learned. What else did you love or do you remember from your time in the Herbert administration?

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Well, I loved that um Governor Herbert was so collaborative. I mean, we spent a lot of time sitting around the table in the Rampton room, you know, really talking about um how to move things forward. He was a great boss. He was very fair, very good with all of us. Um, he was a good person to work for. And um I remember too, you know, one of my responsibilities was tracking all the education legislation. And he would always ask me who opposed it, why, and was that a good argument? And I had to be prepared. I had to be prepared to understand both sides of every issue because I knew he was gonna ask me. And um that helped me later on, you know, as I became a legislator and as I continued to work, just to really take the time to understand both sides and then make a decision.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Yeah. Um you stayed on through the transition too from Hubbard into the Cox administration. Um tell me about, well, first of all, tell me what it was like to be there through the pandemic. Well, the end of my administration started another and overlapped by the pandemic. Um, you know, not only like a gubernatorial race, but that goes along with all of that, but also uh the pandemic. So what what was that like? Because you know, working in education, I imagine that you guys were in a lot of those discussions because a lot of it impacted schools.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Yeah, it that was probably one of the most challenging professional things I've ever done is working through uh in the governor's office and on the COVID response team for the state. Because we were really thinking so hard all the time about how our students were doing, both K-12 and higher ed, and what we could do to keep schools open, at the same time make our teachers and educators feel safe in coming into work and balancing that all through the pandemic when when there was often a deficit of information and we were trying to make decisions on what we knew and knowing we didn't know everything, but we just had to make the best decision we could for our students and for our teachers, it was a hard time. And Tammy had actually left, so I was there through the pandemic. Um she got out at the right time. Um, but um high, low, sell high.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

That's it.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

Yes, right. Yeah, she definitely did that. But um, it was a really challenging time. I mean, I I don't know how many times I would, you know, start meetings at 6 or 7 a.m. in the morning and finish at 10 p.m. and be trying to figure out how to get PPE to certain schools or certain locations. I worked with our higher ed education institutions to create all of the sample testing we had to do during COVID to keep dorms open and classes going. And um also just once the vaccine got here, trying to figure out distribution. Yeah, it was a really challenging time, but you know, a time that you think, well, we did the best we could do and we weren't perfect, but man, we tried hard.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

I I don't want to overly Monday morning quarterback it, but I wonder, like you you mentioned, like of course, there's a ton of information and things could change almost within it within a day, within the week. So before you could actually implement or execute on a decision made, you'd get new information that may change that decision. Um and these aren't small ships to turn around. Sometimes they need some time to turn. But I I wonder just looking back on it. Everyone can look back at the pandemic and go, I should have done this, or I wish I hadn't done that. Uh but I I wonder if there's anything stick out where you go, man, if we'd have known this, we'd have done this differently.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

I don't know. I mean, there was there was less lots of little things. I remember at one point we were trying to, every state had different rules, right? And so we were trying to make sure that people knew when they came to Utah what our roles were, because they were different than our surrounding states. And so we thought, I know, we'll we'll set up this system where you get a text message when you come across the border. Well, the system was not set up correctly, and everyone all over Utah was getting beamed with multiple text messages saying, Welcome to Utah, welcome to Utah, people were not really thrilled about that. Um, so we made mistakes.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

That's when you start to think it's a government sign-up. Like now they've locked me in my house and my phone won't stop ringing, leave me alone so I can figure out how ticket.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

We definitely did not do everything perfect, you know, but it really was just um we had to be scrappy. We had to just figure stuff out, and um it it was um yeah, like I said, it was probably one of the most challenging things I did professionally, but I felt like, you know, man, we got schools open almost faster than any place in the country, and that was so good for our students. I watched it with my own kids, they just needed to get back to school, they need to get back to that. And um, I'm just really grateful for all the people that helped and pushed and and um the thought about our students during that time.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Yeah. It's uh it's so interesting to try to look back and think like, oh, what would you have done differently or not? But I I don't know if you had the same because you were in you were helping make policy decisions at the time. I was working on a campaign. I I tell people like, I feel like I I missed the fun part of the pandemic when like it shut down for a month. I did not make sourdough bread. Oh, we're just home and we're hanging out, and nobody's like whipped out by it necessarily yet. Right. I feel like I missed that entire thing. Did you miss that?

SPEAKER_01 12:35

No, I missed the entire thing, right? I mean when I wouldn't like, you know, when we started getting those pandemic checks and stuff, I was like, I have worked more in my life in the last couple of months, and now you're sending me a check. I I don't know, that whole thing was.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

Yeah, so you got past the first like month and a half, and I remember thinking like, just like everybody else is really well rested. And I don't feel well rested at this time.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

No, I did not ever feel rested.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Um did you ever get COVID through that time period?

SPEAKER_01 12:59

No, I didn't. I I I didn't get it really for I mean I eventually got it, but looked out and didn't get it all through that first over a year.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

It's funny to think back on that time um because I have a hard time remembering like the specifics of the data. Yeah. So it's just like to me, it's like I just remember it as a blur, but I feel like I'm not even gonna be able to act articulate to my grandkids in detail what it was like because it it went on for long enough. I'm like, I don't know. I remember there was like a season where the sports shut down and then they came back, and then I think the next one they had no fans in the stand. Like it's just hard for me to track through the whole thing. I don't know if the same is true for you.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Yeah, I mean it's definitely kind of a blur at this point.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

But yeah. Um during that time, remind me what the timeline was because uh somewhere in that in that timeline, you also fought a an even bigger battle um with cancer.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

I see.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Was that during the Herbert administration? It was.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

It was and actually like I always felt a little like um you know ticked at the pandemic's timing because I really finished cancer treatment and COVID happened. And I kind of felt like I was ready to, you know, live normally because I hadn't lived normally for a year before the pandemic um because of all of that. And I felt a little bit put out by it, frankly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Uh what what is going through something like like cancer? Um how did it change your perspective or how did it change like sort of what you what you wanted to do with the next 10 years?

SPEAKER_01 14:33

You know, that's super interesting. Uh it really did change me. In fact, I even just look at pictures sometimes of myself and I think, oh, that's before cancer. Like it really does just fundamentally change you. You know, when I I was really young when I had cancer, I mean I would consider it really young. I was 38 when I got diagnosed with cancer. I got diagnosed with stage three cancer, and it was fairly aggressive. It spread quite a bit. And so when they first, you know, told me you have cancer, and they said we got to move fast. And I had three young kids at home. And you think like, oh my gosh, these kids need a mom, you know. Um, but it also really helps you remember what's important and it was so amazing. I've always been a very community person. Like I said, that's why I love the city council. I love being in my community, and um my community just stepped up for our family in such a big way that I mean, I'll just uh you still get emotional thinking about everything, everybody that just did things for you without even being asked, not even just for you, but for your kids, your husband. I remember coming home from treatment and um it was you know seven or eight at night because chemo's long, and um the city parks department was homing my lawn and weaving my flower beds. You know what I mean? Like it just um that was such an incredible experience to just have everyone be willing to just step up for you and for your family. And you know, people that maybe never would vote for you, but still would show up with a casserole or cookies or you know, take your kids to a movie or you know, because it it just reminds you that things are so much bigger than sometimes when we work in this political space, we forget. Yeah, like things are bigger than um than you know just what we're currently battling today on Capitol Hill.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

I think that says a lot about you though, like you put the time in not an investment in order to get the return, but an investment because you were putting in time with you know with your family, with the city council, into your community. Um I'm gonna guess you were fairly active with your kids' schools, things along those lines. And not not that you wanted the return, but the return was there when you needed it.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

Oh, it was really amazing. I mean that's that's the thing about you know, I I probably worry about the most, two things I worry about the most in Utah probably, as both from sitting at the state level and sitting at the local level, is I worry a lot about our families. I worry a lot about making sure people can have kids and can have a family, and and that you know that can that can be a possibility for people right now. It feels feels difficult. But second, like how do we keep this sense of community? Because that has been such a value to our family and to just who we are as a state, that we know our neighbors, that we do things with our neighbors, that we look out for each other as neighbors is it's more important than what the government can do for any of us, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:12

Um what did the the ordeal teach you about yourself going through cancer? Like you you you have described, I think to a certain extent that getting a diagnosis and how difficult that is. But um when did you feel like was it immediate that you said I can beat this? Was it did you uh did you need a week to think through it or how to I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

I remember so uh we shared a boss and Justin Harding. And I remember when I called to tell Justin, like, hey, guess what? You know, I just got diagnosed with cancer. Um he was so like, you got this. Like, I mean he was so like confident. And I remember getting off the phone thinking, how can he be this confident that it's all gonna be, you know, like but he was just like, you've got this, we'll get you through it. Yeah, you know, we'll do whatever we can, but you've got this, you know, and and um, you know, you go to you go to get um infusions, the cancer center, and you just see all these people suffering, and you know it's not a matter of sometimes I don't like people will say people beat cancer because some people fight dang hard and they don't make it. You know what I mean? But um and it's not a reflection on them, it's just a reflection on what kind of cancer they received had. But but for me, it really just uh the thing that changed me the most um is it made me say, okay, if there are opportunities that come up, what be really intentional about what I say yes to. Um and um maybe say yes to things earlier than I would have, which is might play into some of the stuff we talk about later with being in the legislature.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Yeah. Uh I want to talk about your role when the Cox administration came in, because you sort of went from education to more broadly the director of legislative affairs. Right. Uh which essentially makes you sort of the liaison. Like a lot of people, uh uh this is an executive branch uh muscle memory, deal with the legislature, right? Like you have to go, you know, you you go and you interact with them and figure those things out. But someone's got to be on point for that relationship. And while the general counsel is sort of reviewing bills and everyone has a role to play up there, kind of the the point woman for that.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

What did you like about the job and what did you not like about the job?

SPEAKER_01 19:13

So um interesting. So Governor Herbert used his general counsel in that role. He didn't have a legislative affairs um director. And so when Governor Cox came in, that's something he wanted to separate. He wanted to have his general counsel be his general counsel and he wanted to have someone do legislative affairs directly. And um so he asked me to do that. So something I loved about it is that nobody had had the job before me. Uh nothing makes me happier than when someone calls me and says, I have an idea. I think this thing needs to happen. Can you help me figure it out? Like nothing makes me happy.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

You like to go create the job.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

I love that, yes, right? And so that was fantastic, right? And of course, a great team, and there was so much energy when it there's a brand new administration, so much energy, you know, as you come in and people trying to figure out their roles and figure out, you know, what they what they're gonna do, and you know, an excited governor. Um so I really enjoyed that part of it. I just ended up doing that job exactly one year to the day, you know, before before I left. But it was it was a great experience. I was happy I had the opportunity to see two different administrations because they functioned very differently. Um because they had different leaders, and it was interesting, interesting to see that.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Yeah, one session, or did you get two within that year?

SPEAKER_01 20:19

I just did one session in that role. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Um so you go upstairs now and like you're dealing with the house, or you go you know, across the way and you're dealing with the Senate. Um how tell me about what that's like when you're the you come from the whole other branch, right? And it's like sometimes the legislature sort of likes to uh as all branches do. The executive branch likes to run the show and the house likes to run the show and the senate likes to run the show, and sometimes there's cooperation there, and sometimes there's friction there. What was it like to take on that that role? Um, like how were you received by everybody up there?

SPEAKER_01 20:55

When I went to the legislature or when I was still the governor's office.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

When you're still in the governor's office, but you're you're dealing with the legislature first.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Right. So I mean I had worked with the legislature pretty extensively previously, and so it was nice. I had lots of uh existing relationships up there. You know, it was nice I worked with all of the chiefs, so you know, Abby Osborne and Mark were there. And Mark had been in the governor's office with us, so we had a great relationship with him. I'd worked with Abby when she was at the chamber, um, you know, when I was doing education stuff. So it was nice to already have some established relationships upstairs. Um it is, you know, um, it's all about relationships on the hill. Always about relationships, right? And and the ability to go uh sit down with someone and say, you know, we have some concerns about your bill, you know, and but let us help you fix it.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

We love you. Yes. Your bill we're not quite as sold on. Here's what we think we could fix.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Right. And and both um governors that I work for very much had the philosophy of get it, go get it right. Not go tell them we're gonna kill it. Yeah. Go get it right. Go work with them, find out what their issue is, find and and that um that's work I really enjoy.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

And if we can't, then we'll kill it.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Give them plenty of warning. Yeah. Might be coming. And so I liked doing that work, being able to sit down with people and say, these are the policy concerns and questions that we have. Here's some ways that you know I think we could get there together. And I think when you approach it like that, it's a lot less adversarial than if you just show up and say, do this or reveto it.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

So you go from the Cox administration being their point person upstairs and then you move upstairs.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Remind me how you how you went to the house. Did you it was a special election? Did you go take someone's seat? Remind me.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

So Paul Ray had had represented my community for 20 years for a long time. And he actually went to work in the Department of Health. And he called me.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Now he's at UTA if I Yeah, now he's at UTA, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

He called me one night and said, um, hey, I got this new job. I'm gonna resign from the legislature announced tomorrow. And I said, Oh, and he said, I think you should think about putting your name in. There'll be a special election. I'm sure he called, I think he called a couple of people, great in our my community, that he thought should think about it. And I kind of was like, When do you think I should decide by? Like, what's my timeline? He said, You should decide by tomorrow morning, because if you're gonna do it, you should be first out of the gate. And um, so I hung up the phone, I went to my husband, and I said, Eric, what do you think? And he said, Being in the legislature is crazy, and you know better than anyone else, and it's crazy. So if you decide to do it, I might be worried about you.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Um, but also I'd like to keep the full-time work, but go to the part-time thing. Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Yeah, like you're gonna leave a full-time job to do this part-time thing that doesn't pay very much and it's really stressful. Um, but you know, he he also he's been so always supportive of me. And, you know, uh honestly coming off having cancer and all these things, it's like, well, do I ever want to serve in the legislature? How many times in my life am I gonna get this phone call? Maybe it's time, maybe it's now, you know, because who knows? Who knows how long you get? So um I called the governor that night and said, Hey, I think I'm gonna put my name in. And he he said, I don't ever want to stand in your way. Um, so I think you'd be really great in the legislature, but I'll be really happy if you lose. And I won. So but I mean it was a race. There were five of us and some really great candidates, um mayors of two of the other towns, um, I mean, really quality candidates were in that race, and I felt um lucky to win. Um, but I also will say I I won in the first round with five candidates. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

We'll take a little pride in that. It always feels good to win. Yeah. I guess the nice thing is you can go run without having to quit your job, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:27

Yeah, he said yeah, he's a no-lose situation. If you if you you know lose, then we're still having happy, you know.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

And we're just gonna have one person in the legislature who doesn't like you because you ran against that person.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

Right. Well, and and I felt like to you. That's right. Well, I felt like to the other people that were running, we had we all were running because it was an open seat, it wasn't super personal. You know, you've seen super personal elections, and that one really wasn't.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

It was Yeah. How did your role then I I'm just trying to think like, is that the easiest transition you can possibly make from being legislative affairs director for the governor to then being in the house to say, well, I know how all this works and I know all of the issues. Like you did it pre I'm guessing it didn't feel like you were running to catch up to the train.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

No. I mean it was it was hard because you can't really run legislation. I actually ended up running four bills that first session and passing them all, so I felt pretty good about that. They were all pretty simple changes, but things you kind of knew needed to be done, and you're like, oh, well now I'm here, I'm gonna do that. Um I would say the actually hardest transition was coming in and a caucus very skeptical of that I still work for the governor. I mean, I heard that a bit that first year of, well, you know, are you working for are you part of our caucus or are you still telling them downstairs what's going on up here? You know? And I had to I had to really work to overcome that so they would know me personally. And I always told them, you know, if I wanted to keep working for the governor, I would still be working for the governor. I was ready for a change, I was ready to do something different, and I'm here for my constituents now, I'm here to be part of the caucus and part of the house. And and we we got there. But that was probably the hardest part of the transition, is just um they knew me, but they were a little bit unsure about someone coming directly from the governor's office to their caucus.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

And it's a weird spot because what do they want you to do to what do they want you to do to prove that you're in right?

SPEAKER_01 26:08

Well, I mean, I think um, you know, I voted um to override the governor on a veto that year, and I think that might help me.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

You're like, look, I I may agree with this or not, but look, downstairs I gotta I gotta override this.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Yeah, yeah. No, I and I felt good about that vote.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

So at least they didn't leave you in the position to be the deciding vote on override. That would have been. Um so you served in the House representing the same area that you you live in now. The Clearfield Clinton was, I guess, Sunset and West Point, right? Uh-huh. So pretty, pretty decent size area for a for a house district. Um what was it like to represent your own neighborhood now, like you had uh in the city council, but now to do it on the state level? Like what did that come with like an extra level of like, all right, this is a big deal to make sure I deliver from my district, or how did you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 26:55

Uh you know, for me it's mostly um one of the things I learned on the city council, and I think has been so important to me in any of these roles where I'm representing people, is just being available and listening. And that part doesn't change, right? I there's not a lot of expectation that you um deliver specific things. Now, there were some some issues, especially with UDOT, I think that you run into as a representative in any district where you're going to battle for your district with UDOT to make sure, you know, certain road projects or things are taken care of. But overall, you know, they just want to know that you care about their concerns. And what's was the most one of the most interesting things about going to the legislature is you know, your email inbox is a nightmare. But I would say less than 10%, maybe 5% of your emails come from your constituents. They usually come from other folks. And so um being able to prioritize those 5%, 10% of emails and those concerns, it's it's um it's something you can do, you know, and you can help people navigate the system. Usually that's what they need more than anything. They need you to get them connected to the right person to help with their issue. Um, and so that part felt similar.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Um, but you know, you're just doing it at a different level.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Did anything surprise you uh when you got into that role? Like, okay, now I'm a House member. This surprised me about being in the House. And what did you love about it because you're not running for re-election?

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Yeah, so um maybe one of the things that surprised me is um, and maybe I uh maybe you know I'm going out, so maybe I'm gonna say something back.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Please buckle up everyone.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

When I was in the governor's office, it always felt like um, boy, those caucuses, they're stuck together, you know. And you get up there and you really hear the debate, right? You really hear the debate up there. And I remember saying to Brad Wilson was the speaker at the time, and I said, Man, I knew you were wringling cats, but this is not wringling cats, this is squirrels, and they're everywhere. I mean, there is just everyone is, I mean, you've got 75 people representing 75 very different districts. They should be, you know, all working um on lots of things. But I guess the other thing coming from the city council to there is I always said I was good on the city council because I could count to three. I know when I had two other votes, and I didn't lose my temper. Like those were, you know, like, but I could get anything done with two other people. Now you're trying to build a coalition of 37 other people, um, it's significantly harder, and every nobody has shared constituents. So when I was on the city council and somebody came to us with an issue, that person was all of our constituent, and we all had a role to play in solving that issue for that person. Now, when my constituent comes to me, I'm it, I'm their only person. And I have to make other people care about that issue from my constituent to actually get something done, which is it's good because you shouldn't just you know legislate for one district because that might not be good for the whole state. It's good that that is part of the process, but you don't have those natural allies. You have to build them, you have to find them, you have to work with people that are gonna see that those issues that your constituents are bringing are also issues for their constituents, even if they haven't heard from them. Uh, to build that coalition in that part is significantly different.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

How do you balance as a legislator the the various elements of I've studied this and maybe know about it more than my constituents do? So I'm I'm hopefully slightly more informed for the most parts. I mean that's your job is to be informed so they don't have to think about all of it. Balance that against you said that a a smaller percentage of your emails or your outreach comes from actual constituents. Yeah. And the ones who reach out are a minority of your total constituents. So how do you know, like, how do you balance when you're supposed to say I know more about this versus the other balance of am I responding to the squeaky wheel? Or am I responding to like, how do I know that this is really what most people in my community?

SPEAKER_01 30:40

So it's interesting. I've I've heard elected officials sometimes talk about being elected officials two different ways. You know, sometimes they say, I'm elected to represent my constituents, and what I hear from them is that's how I'm gonna vote, that's what I'm gonna do. And I've heard people say, No, my constituents elected me because they know who I am, and then they're trusting me to do the right thing. I actually always kind of felt like I was in the middle, which is you elected me to show up for you and to learn about the issue. And then to hear these concerns and say, okay, if you knew what I knew from sitting in these meetings, how would you solve this problem? And that's how I'm gonna move forward, right? Um, because I think that's um that's the place where I felt the most comfortable because you know you do hear um from a lot of the same people, you know. I have had constituents that sometimes email me every single day during say it's the same people, you know, you know, and it's like great, I love that you're so engaged, but I can't take what you say and say that the whole district feels that way. Um so the other thing is just lots of outreach, you know, making yourself really um accessible. I try to go, um have tried to go to like every community event just to be there because that's when you really get to just talk to people in your neighborhood who say, hey, this is an issue, or hey, I had this problem at work, or you know, this happened to my kid, and I want to tell you about it. Um so you have a better sense of your community than just the couple people that you know might have more time on their hands than others to reach out.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

Uh one of the things you've been involved in throughout, uh and specifically early in the governor's office, focused on education. Obviously that portfolio had to broaden, but it's a it's a passion issue for you. It's the one that you care about maybe, maybe the most. Um but you've you've had a touch on it now from the executive branch, from the House floor, um throughout like you've seen this all the education issues that we have. What do you think most people get wrong about how education policy actually gets made in the state that I think might be interesting for people to hear?

SPEAKER_01 32:30

So when I went in the governor's office, I remember receiving emails and phone calls asking if the governor would fire their kids' principal. You know, like I'm so mad at my kids' principal, I want the governor to fire him. You know, and it's like, wow, we are we've we escalated this issue before. You probably could just go have a conversation with the principal. Um anyway, so sometimes I think one of the trickiest things in education is there are a lot of hands on the wheel. There are so many hands on the wheel. And um, you think you know, parents play a really important role here, but you've got local school boards, you've got local charter boards, you have you know school districts, you have superintendents, you have this legislature, you have state school board, you have the state office of education. I mean, there are so many people with their hands on the wheel. And then even just the business community and and other you know stakeholders in this space, there's just so many people. And um, and so I think it is difficult for just the average citizen with a kid in school who runs into an issue to figure out how do I navigate this to get this issue solved that I'm seeing in my school. Um, and I I don't know how you simplify it though, either, because that local element is so important because local communities are different, they want their schools to look different. So I think um that's probably the biggest challenge. And and that, you know, when people call you at the state and they want you to fix the problem. So often I'm saying, you know, the thing I'm gonna do for you is connect you to your Davis County School Board member. Let me get on the phone. The three of us can get on the phone, you can explain the issue to her because she's the one that actually should solve this, you know. But that's hard. That's hard for people because they just want you to fix it.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

Here's a safe question to ask someone who's leaving the legislature. You've been in the governor's office where you had influence on the policy. And then you've had one of 75 votes in one half of the other branch of the government. So you've had, you know, there's there, you you you have some um some influence and some power, but not total dictatorial uh power. So let me give you the magic wand as you sort of leave the legislature. What's the one thing you would fix in education in particular if you could just say oh okay, Karen, it's uh you get all the votes, everyone's lining up behind you, and then you'll sign it and make it happen.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

Oh, that is a really hard question. Um because there's lots of things that we need to fix. I guess I wish that. Um I don't know, Marty. I I think the biggest thing just is like we're losing the parent engagement because you have working families now. And um how do we keep that? Because I think sometimes the mistrust that we hear about what's going on in our schools is sometimes that both parents and teachers don't have that connection like they should. Um both going both directions. It's not, you know, all on one side or the other. And and I I wish we could figure out that, and I wish we could figure out too. We keep turning to schools to solve all of society's problems. We say, oh, the kids are there, so our teachers can do this too. And we have just piled and piled and piled on our teachers more things than they were ever trained to do. And I would love for our teachers to be able to go to school and teach reading and math and help our kids and not have to do all of these other things that they're needing to do right now that I think just makes a challenge for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

Yeah. I'd flip the day. I'd say sports practice before and kids who are getting up to go to school, don't start school until 10 or 10.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Oh, I know. That's hard for my parents. Oh, I know.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

Wave the magic wand.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

I know, yeah. Yeah, we always always hear about how early high school starts. It starts way too early.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Having my uh my youngest now go into high school, um, I would say if there's a way we could streamline how many emails you send parents, that would be a good thing. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

I know sometimes when I hear legislators. We just need to tell parents more, and I'm like, Do you have you seen my inbox just from the school?

SPEAKER_00 36:11

Uh my my youngest two are uh identical twin boys. And so I will get emails. Sometimes they have the same teacher for something. Yes. Uh and it comes, or sometimes the teacher will send something, but it doesn't say which student it's for.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

And like, I don't know which kid you're talking about, so that's uh that's a little bit tougher one. I want to talk about your new chapter because leaving the legislature, not just to go, you know, um sip cocktails or something on the beach, uh mocktails on the beach. Uh so you're gonna go to SUU. Tell us about the new role and what you're excited about uh with that.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

Yeah, so I am really excited. So I decided not to run for re-election this year. I was I wasn't. Is that a hard decision? You know, it was really interesting. I had planned on running. In fact, I had fundraised and had my campaign manager hired, and I was ready to go. And um, as it got a little bit closer, I started thinking, you know, life's short. And this has been a really great opportunity. I'm really glad I had it, but there's some other things I'd like to do, and and you know, I've always joked I don't have any hobbies because the legislature is it, you know. So so um anyway, so it it was a hard decision because there are things you really love about it, but it was also, I have also been there long enough to see a lot of legislators come and go, and I think it's nice to leave on your own terms and when you're ready. So um, so yes, so I'm not running for re-election this year, and um was recently offered a position at Southern Utah University that I'm really excited about. I'll be working with um the president there, Mindy Benson. And um I'll be an assistant to the president, but I'll do be doing some government relations work and some industry relations work, which I'm I'm excited about both of those. So you can take the Karen out of the legislature, but you can't take the legislature out of the I I'm gonna still work with my friends up at the Capitol, um, but also broader groups like the Board of Higher Education and trustees and those groups as well.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

Um that's uh a really cool opportunity because it just sort of feels like everything has flown from one opportunity to the next and led to this. And who knows if the next thing is in the same line or not, but you know, focus on this thing for now and uh seems like a really cool opportunity, one I think you'll be really good at.

SPEAKER_01 38:06

Yeah, I'm really excited. I mean, my my passion is really what gets me up in the morning is thinking about how we make our state better. And I really loved working on behalf of our students, and so now thinking about how we do that with students of our higher education institutions, especially SCEO, I'm excited.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

Yeah, now you get to get all new swag, you gotta get it. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

I uh um I ordered some red shoes, they'll be here Friday, you know.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

You probably have a little bit of swag because you did.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

Yes, I did because I did my master's there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

So you gotta tie it to the school that way.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

All right, I want to end with the lightning round. You ready for a lightning round? All right. Okay, these are you know just more fun questions to get to know you a little bit. Okay. Uh what is your favorite food? What are you ordering when nobody's watching?

SPEAKER_01 38:42

Tacos, messy tacos.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

Messy tacos.

SPEAKER_01 38:45

You know, just like tacos with lots of stuff in them.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Okay. Yes. Soft shell tacos, though. Yes. Okay. Or like street tacos. Street tacos, okay. Good way to go.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Um favorite sport or hobby. You just told me you don't have a hobby, but what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 38:56

I do love um watching college basketball.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

College basketball. All right. So you're a big March Madness person?

SPEAKER_01 39:01

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

All right, so of course you can now you have to say SUU, but like take SUU out.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Well, I've always been I I did my undergrad U test day, so I will always be an aggy.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

So kind of an Aggie, and then you've got the SUU mix in there as well. Absolutely. Uh do you like that the tournament has expanded beyond 64 teams to the playance?

SPEAKER_01 39:17

I don't. There's plenty. It's just too much. It is too much.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

It feels like it kind of starts and doesn't start.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Um what uh if you couldn't be I was gonna say if you couldn't be a legislator, let's just say if you couldn't work with the legislature in general, what profession other than your own would you most like to try?

SPEAKER_01 39:35

So um interestingly, I went to school to be a city manager. That's what I went to school to do. And I'm I like that administration stuff, and I really thought I actually might go back there at some point, but I haven't made it there.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

So that's the one you'd like to try. Yes. Um, what profession other than your own would you absolutely not like to try? Never want to do that again.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

Um goodness, what would I not like to try? My husband's an engineer, and I would just tell you, my brain does not work like his. Like I could not do math all day.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Yeah, I'm with you there, and I think most people would agree if you're not a math person, please don't engineer things. Please don't build things uh for anybody. All right. Give us a recommendation, a book, a podcast, TV, uh movie, something that you've consumed in some way where you say other people should be knowing should know about this.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

Um I love to read. I read like 40 books a year. So um maybe my top three books so far this year.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

Sure, let's do that.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

Okay. I read The O of Golden.

SPEAKER_00 40:23

Loved it. So good. Did you love it? I loved it. Yeah, like a very low anxiety book, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 40:28

It's so comfortable.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

So it's like nothing bad's gonna happen here.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

I liked the correspondent too. I read that this year.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

Okay, that's next on my list.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

That's absolutely good. I love how it's all written in letters. Um and then maybe an interesting read I read Careless People, which is about Facebook. Uh, someone that did the international affairs for Facebook for a number of years and shared their stories in that. You know, it's probably a little bit uh exaggerated, but still fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

I just saw uh uh yesterday a preview for the sort of the sequel to the social network that's social what are they called? The following it's basically it's an Aaron Sorkin movie again, but they're gonna do sort of when Facebook whistleblowers started showing up. So interesting. So if you've read that book, maybe there's my recommendation for you. I usually don't just give one of those out. Okay. But uh perfect. Uh so yeah, and I'm not kidding, the correspondent is next on my list. It's really good.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

You'll really like it.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

Yeah, um uh but Theo of Golden was really good. It was still good book. That was a good book.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

Uh all right, last question. Okay. Uh, best piece of advice that you could give to a younger Karen Peterson, go back to your late teens, early twenties and say, Man, if I could tell myself this, this is what I would say.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

You know, um being a mom of little kids was hard for me, and it felt like these days were never gonna end. And you know, yeah, people always say, Oh, the days are long, but the years are short or whatever. It's true though. My goodness, you know, having adult children is just new, a new challenge, but it's fantastic. I love it. But um, but it just really is, you know. But I will also say this have children, have a family, get married. Like that is the best thing I have done in my life.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

Yeah. Uh really good words of advice, not just for younger you, but for everybody. So, Karen, thanks so much. Yeah, you know, cheers. Thanks for being here. All right, a reminder: the back channel is a northbound strategy production. You can subscribe to the audio version of our show wherever you get your podcast. You can also find us on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, and TikTok. You can find us pretty much everywhere as at Back Channel. Utah, by the way, we have video on the Apple Podcast now, aren't we, Fancy? Uh I thought that was a really interesting conversation today with Karen Peterson. Uh, I've known her for a long time, as was evident uh through the interview. But still learned a few things about her. And I always find it fascinating to talk to people who've served in multiple branches of government to see what the distinction is, what the difference is. And I know that from working in the governor's office and saying, boy, the executive branch really just drives the ship. And then stepping back and doing some work with the legislative branches, uh, with the legislative branch with old house and uh to a certain extent with some members of the Senate, to see uh how they feel like they're driving uh the overall uh effort forward in whatever they may be focused on. So I thought that was a really interesting part of the conversation. Great to have Karen Peterson with us today. Glad you were with us and we'll join you next week with another edition of the