Relationships, Rural Utah, and Four Governors with Mike Mower

Mike Mower has spent decades serving Utah through multiple gubernatorial administrations, but ask him what has mattered most and the answer is simple: people.

From growing up in Ferron to working alongside Governors Jon Huntsman Jr., Gary Herbert, and Spencer Cox, Mike reflects on the relationships that have shaped his career and his life. He shares stories about public service, personal loss, rural Utah, and the lessons he's learned from spending years traveling the state and working with communities large and small.

The conversation also includes one unforgettable missionary story involving the governor of Oregon, a public access television show, and why Mike believes we could all do a better job of disagreeing with each other.

🎙️ Watch and subscribe to stay up to date. New episode every Friday.

Off Script. On Record.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Institutional knowledge doesn't always show up on an org chart. It's not a title or a credential. It's the thing that tells you which phone call to make before the meeting and which relationship needs tending to before the vote and which battles have already been fought so that you don't have to fight them again. In a world that rewards the new and the loud, institutional knowledge is quietly undervalued. But in government, where decisions carry real consequences and the margin of error is so thin, it may be the most valuable thing to have in the room. My guest today has spent his career accumulating that institutional knowledge, three gubernatorial administrations and a campaign for a fourth, all spanning different eras of Utah. That's thousands of rooms where the real work happens. Not the press conference, not the announcement, but the conversations that set all that up. Coming up on Back Channel, we go off script and on record with Mike Maurer. This is the Back Channel.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Back channel.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

You didn't hear this from me. Back channel. Hey, you're not gonna quote me, are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:06

What channel is it on? Back channel. Off script on record.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Mike Maurer, our white whale. We've been trying to get you on the show for a while. Well, I'm excited to be here, and it's always good when you get to visit Marty Carpenter. Well, we go way back. Let's let's help uh the general political public in Utah know more about the man, the myth, the legend, Mike Maurer. And we've got to start from the very beginning because you are from a town, Brigadoon, Utah. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Well, I was lucky to be raised in a town called Farron, Utah.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Yeah. Which I was convinced for the longest time didn't really exist. And you just made it up, and it only appeared once every hundred years or so.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

The Farron is a delightful community, 41 miles south of Price, 10 miles south of Castledale, 14 miles north of Emery, off of Highway 10. Great people, great community, fun place to grow up. I grew up there milking cows for the lemons and going to Centerfell Elementary and junior high and then around the city. Were the lemons a family?

SPEAKER_01 2:05

You weren't trying to get lemons from the cows?

SPEAKER_00 2:07

are the nicest family in uh in Utah. Just a great family. So I'd get up at five in the morning, go milk cows for them, go off to school, come back at night, keep it up again. It was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

What did you learn living and growing up in Farron? How did that shape the Mike Power wheel?

SPEAKER_00 2:23

A lot of it is you really got to know your neighbors and the highs and the lows. The town was small enough. You'd be thrilled when someone got a job, you'd be heartsick when the mines were laying off people. Uh this the life revolved around the seasons. It was deer hunting in the fall and rounding up the cattle. And in in the winter, it was the neighbors were off snowmobiling. I mean, it was you're you live pretty close to nature. They call fair in the town between the desert and the mountains. And that's because it is. It's a great place.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Uh you don't strike me as an outdoors guy. Were you an outdoors guy as a kid?

SPEAKER_00 2:58

In fact, uh longtime chief of staffer, Governor uh Gary Herbert, his name's Justin Harding. Uh he referred to me as an indoorsman. And uh there may be some truth in that. But I appreciate those that appreciate the outdoors. Yes. So hats off to them.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

I've told people I'm not outdoorsy, but I am outside y. And I think the difference is uh availability of restrooms.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Yes. Right?

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Yeah, I'm I'm with you there. I'm outside yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

It's fine, but not not outdoorsy. But no, I love the people, love the community. And I'm nothing flatters me more than when someone sends me a selfie from outside Farn with uh the Farron sign behind them. I get one of those a week, and it's fun to see.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Aaron Powell And you're known for the the selfies or just the photos that randomly show up from places. I get them occasionally from you from Camus, which is where my dad grew up, and it seems like every time you roll into Camas, bless your heart. It's instinctive.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

It's like Pavlov's dog. I can't go to Camas and not think of Marty, and I can't think, oh, Marty's gonna want to know I'm passing through Camas. And I do that, you know, if I'm passing through parawan, John Cox has got to get a photo. And I can't tell you how many times I've stopped by the fairview sign to send a selfie to the governor. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

And every time I get one, I think if you just drive two more, two more blocks up uh away from Salt Lake, two more blocks, I guess that's east from that direction. Uh you can take a picture of the actual like my grandparents' property, which my dad always wants us to get a picture of because it's his property. And we'll start doing that. You send me the course of the side of the side of the side. I'll drop you opinions up there. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: So I I'm interested in like you grew up in a small town. You mentioned like everybody knows everybody's business and they cheer for each other. How did that help you or how did that lead you into life in sort of public service and politics?

SPEAKER_00 4:31

I, from a time I was a little kid, was fascinated by government and politics. And I don't know where it came from. My parents don't know where it came from. They they would vote, they would host a cottage meeting or something, but they weren't overtly political. I was always fascinated in politics. And what do you do about it when you're in Farron? Um, my parents, my dad would call up if there was a candidate coming through town, he'd invite him over for dinner. I remember a guy running for Congress named Howard Nielsen who came and spent an hour with me because the county party chair had sent him over. I had mentors like Virginia Snow and Sam Singleton and Ralph Lemon who were involved in politics and gave me opportunities that you have available in a small town to kind of involve. Well, with uh Mr. Singleton, uh he was our principal at the school. Uh he was also the chairman of the Republican Party. So I'd go with him to count votes, or I'd go with him to caucus night. Virginia was the chairman of the Republican Party of Emory County. So she had invite me to give the player prayer or the pledge. Just as opportunities presented themselves, uh they would they would be sure to include this uh chatty 14, 15-year-old kid. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Uh we know a lot of the same people. So I've asked some people what their impressions are, but I also know what a lot of people's impressions are, Mike. And the one thing we're spooked. Yeah. This part scares me. The one thing everybody says is that three. Yeah, take a check. And by the way, this is part of the Mike Maurer, this is how you lure him to a podcast, is you have to have either Diet Dr. Pepper or Dr. Pepper's.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

I have to give credit to your predecessor in the governor's office. Um Allie Isum was the one who starred me on Diet Dr. Pepper. What did you drink before Diet Dr. Pepper? Regular Dr. Pepper? Uh yeah, and then I had to make it the break. And Allie got me on. I'd never had a diet drink before, a full can, and then Allie got me onto this. I have bought thousands of cans since then.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

So she should have told you two things. Try this and buy stock.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

She should have. She should have. I never do insider trading.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

I am squeaky clean.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Squeaky clean.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

So everybody says, and I think uh anyone who's been watching for the last six minutes would say, uh, man, a relentlessly positive guy. Kind of an abnormality in politics, right? That people politics tends to make people competitive and a little bit divisive, and like, I've got this, but I want that, and and sort of maneuvering around each other. You don't do much of that, or I would say I would say any of that, really, but I'm sure that there's some of it. But you're just like this relentlessly positive guy. Have you always been that way, or is that something you had to work to become?

SPEAKER_00 6:56

You you kind of work out a little. I have I have a my dad was always very uh he'd go talk to anybody. We'd drive through a small town, he'd stop, pick up the phone, and call a missionary companion from 40 years ago. I mean, he was kind of the connector. My mom was the one who was relentlessly positive. She could always see the bright side in any circumstance, and oh, well, this is nice, and just kind and sweet. So kind of a combination of the two. And in politics, it's tough, but having been around long enough, I've realized, oh, your adversary on one campaign is gonna be your buddy on the next. And um I I tell the story several years ago, Governor Herbert was running for re-election, and he was up against a guy named Peter Cook, whose lieutenant governor candidate was Vince Rampton. This is the 2012 race. 2012 race. You were around for that. And you know how you get when when your opponents, but they ran an honorable campaign, and we didn't, you know, there wasn't any diffugulties between us, which was really nice because uh my daughter marries uh one of the Ramtons. And so who's there in the line with us? It's Vince Rampton and Janice Rampton, and how now we're family. And they were opponents to the governor on a political ticket, but now we're family. And you know, I've got case after case like that in Utah where we'll disagree on a campaign or candidate, and those those can get a little rambunctious, but for the most part, you can find something to agree with on people if they want to find something to agree with. In short, maybe you could disagree better. Disagree better. And I so I try to I try to practice that.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Uh that one's in for the current boss. So you got that box checked uh right there. Uh tell me about the family you grew up in, though. Like you've told me a little bit about your parents, but where do you fit amongst your siblings? And did that have anything to drive with like, I gotta be the positive one because I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

No, I have I have three sisters, absolutely wonderful sisters. We're very close to this day. They have always been really good.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Are you the oldest, or what do you follow?

SPEAKER_00 8:55

I'm uh third. Okay. Only boy.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

So two older sisters than you and then a younger sister.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Yes, younger sister and close. I talk to my siblings every day. Or uh I have a sister in Twiller. Her wonderful husband, Myron, put up a hundred lawn signs for Governor Cox. That's my love language. Are you are you helping out like that? So the family's been supportive of it. They're not obsessed with it, which is a good healthy thing, but they've always been good to uh be supportive and they're great Americans.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Um you've got this really positive, um, I I'd say like happy, bubbly personality. But that doesn't mean that like you haven't had you deserve some tragedy in life. Yeah, you tell me if this is okay to talk about. If not, we can always, I guess, cut around it. But you know what? I I think we'll skip that part. Okay. All right, we'll skip the negative part. Um but you've you know you've had you've had some in your in your life with some family, and how much has that helped you through some of the challenges you've had family with?

SPEAKER_00 9:48

It has, and what he's what Marty's alluding to and what I always um get through is I lost my first wife to cancer and had four little kids in Provo, Utah. It's funny, it's been 20 years and I still lose it. Um but you saw a lot of the best of humanity. I was working for Provo Mayor Lewis Buildings at the time. He could not have been nicer. The Provo City Council, because we had just lived in Provo two years, but but the town really came together and helped us out. I've tried to pay that forward. People were so good to us. Um and then moved to Salt Lake, and I have to give hats off. This is kind of where the career moves on. Um, Jason Chaffetz was a friend of mine at BYU. We sat by each other in class, uh, in a BYU comms class, and I would try to go and support his events. It's what I always tell people show up. If you're interested in something, show up. So I would show up, um, got to be friends with Jason, kind of kept track of him over the years. I went to law school, practiced law for a few years, ran a congressional campaign, worked for a congressman, but hadn't done a lot on the Huntsman campaign. And yet Jason called up and said, Hey, do you want to work for Governor Huntsman if he wins? And it was a real lifeline to me because I had four little kids. I needed help. My parents and sisters lived in Salt Lake, and it worked out that I came up and worked for Governor Huntsman. And it was just kind of an example of me of, oh, how nice people can be when when you're kind of needing some help. And again, I've I try to play it forward, I try to support as many GoFundMe's as I can just because you know people were good to us. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

No, we'll start one for the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

We'll we'll do it. Yeah, Marty's Marty's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

I'm wondering though, the reason I bring it up is I wonder if that like naturally friendly and happy um personality not only helps you sort of navigate that real challenge, um, but also like going into like more of a you know a new marriage and a blended family and such. Has that helped? Or did or did your did did some of your kids find it annoying?

SPEAKER_00 11:53

The the kids, the kids, Liz and I, so I'm in I'm in uh governor's office a year. One day, Neil uh Ashdown, who was uh governor uh Huntsman's second chief of staff, uh I was the deputy chief of staff at the time, calls me in and closes the door. Anytime the chief of staff closes the door, you're like, what's going down? Am I going down? Oh, I always thought, well, we're about to get some good gossip here. We're about to find out what's really happening. Anyway, he said, Hey, I need you to go out. Uh you should not, I need you to. He said, hey, you should go out with my wife's best friend, um, Liz. And I said, Oh, I, you know, I hadn't dated. I was like, I'm not gonna date. Um, you know, I got four kids to raise. He's like, No, you should really go out with Liz. Well, I'm an At Will employee, so I'm like, oh, okay. So I went out with Liz and she was a good sport to go out with me. I was not what was on her list of things she was looking for. But long story short, a year later, we're blending six kids and then adding a seventh. Yeah. You were down. So she's a saying, Liz is absolutely awesome. She's a say, she's lots of fun.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

Um, all right, I want to shift and talk a little bit about your career. Yeah. Um, but actually, I want to do I want to have one question before we transition from just like personal life, that. Because I think everyone deserves to hear the story. Uh, you served a mission in Oregon. Portland, Oregon. Portland, Oregon. And I want you to talk to me about how you not only uh proselyted, but used public access television to advance your cause.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

You know, I get to Oregon, my MTC district goes to Spain, so I was like, well, oh my word, they're all in Spain. I'm a Spanish-speaking Oregon. I learned like 20 words. But it was a great experience. Um when I was there, I thought, let's start at the top. So the first week I'm there, I'm an elder in Woodburn, Oregon. We're close enough to Salem that I call the governor's office and said, Can we come and meet with the governor? So I went in and met with Governor Victor Atia, um uh with our district leaders, Elder Jackman and Elder Johnson, Elder Cortes, and I went in and You just made an appointment with the governor. Didn't clear that with the mission president, thought that's it. Well, it was in our zone. I didn't break any rules. They may have created some rules after I'd been it, but I didn't break any rules. But so uh no, we went in and met with the governor. He was perfectly nice, perfectly nice. And I had put a $10 check to um the Republican Party of Oregon in Morona I-10-4 just out of curiosity to see if anybody would cash it. And lo and behold, they did. And lo and behold, later I learned that the governor's secretary was LDS, and that may have helped us get in. But on the in on the wall of my office is a picture of Eldermauer hoping to convert Governor Vicatia and work his way down. Didn't work quite like that. But then we got the idea, we were I was in Hillsboro and thought, by golly, there's community access cable. And the rules said you couldn't watch TV, but they didn't say you couldn't be on TV. There's the lawyer. So we uh went in in a little studio, and this is back when Wayne's World was popular, Multnomah Cable went all over the Portland area and hosted uh my television show, Nothing Doubting, with your host, Elder Mike Mauer. Nothing Daddy? Doubting. Oh, no. Nothing doubting. It was the name of Elder Sander. Nothing doubting. So, you know, Zelder Erickson, uh, I brought him on, and Elder Sandorf, the zone leader and the district leader. You bring them on, then of course they're gonna give you permission. Uh Elder Hill, uh, my companion was our executive producer. We did one episode that played over and over and over again because they needed content. And people all over saw it. And some were so excited they called the mission president to ask all about it. And the next thing you know, I'm transferred to Hood River and there's no community access cable. But I did my part. Well, I was before the church kind of did social media with missionaries. I like to think I was a trailblazer for my faith. A Portland trailblazer. There you go. See, that's it. You can see he's a former sports caster.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

Uh okay, so let's I want to shift a little bit here. Yeah. Your current title is senior advisor of community and intergovernmental relations. Okay. So I was gonna ask, what is what does the community and intergovernmental relations work?

SPEAKER_00 15:54

Basically, I work a lot with community groups and a lot with um local government. So uh I was just telling you before we went on the air this morning. I was on the phone with uh uh Beaver County Commissioner Tammy Pearson. And over the weekend I'm in contact with the West Jordan mayor uh Burton. I I mean I I get to work with some of the nicest people all across Utah on some of their more challenging issues and positive issues. West Jordan, you know, we're talking about the rodeo, Beaver County, we're working on how do you get funding to help fight the fire and help the county rebuild. So it's it's I I really enjoy it because I love local government. I spent four years at Provo City, so local government rocks.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

I've joked with a lot of people, uh I've told the story a number of times, and I say it you know, in all kindness and joking, that when I got to the governor's office where we worked together in uh December of 2013, it didn't take me long to go, I got the wrong job. I want Maurer's job. Because here's the difference between the two jobs the communication director, as you know, has work product. Like you have to write things down and they have to be printed in a book and speeches get given and reporters have deadlines and you've got to figure out what to tell them, and all of this stuff that's like there's work product and deadlines. Yeah. And it was like, oh, Maurer comes into meetings and goes, Hey, our friends at Sitlist still love us. Okay, gotta run, see ya. Then you'd be gone. And I was like, that's the job I want.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

I will say this. I've had uh several different positions in the governor's office, including communications director for about two years for Governor Huntsman. That's a tough job. And I say that to my friend Rob Carroll, who has it now, and Jennifer and Napier Pierce. There have been some awesome people fill that role. It's a challenging job because you're on 24-7, and your comments going to get reflected statewide. And you're not speaking on behalf of yourself, so if you misspeak, you you're you're you're representing the governor of the state of Utah. And so it is a it is a tougher, it is a tougher assignment as far as when it comes to um you know having to be on point and on message and on time in representing the governor. Mine's a lot more. I'm on the road. People are always like, you're traveling all over. And I'm like, Yeah, I am, because the governor, um, we're we're a state of 3.4 million people. There are a lot of requests that come in. If he can't make those a lot of times, and they still want someone, I'll go. So a couple of weeks ago, I'm in Navajo Mountain. Well, it's a seven-hour drive to Navajo Mountain. It's well worth going there. Um they brought the last of the fiber optic cable, the last high school in Utah, Navajo Mountain High School, now it's connected with fiber optic cable. It was a Herculean task by Emory Telcom and their team. It's well worth celebrating, but it's at such a distance a governor just simply can't make it taller than that.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

It sounds a little bit like and I I know the term Secretary of State is in many states is like the lieutenant governor. It's essentially the same role. But in the sense that like the president of the United States has a Secretary of State who goes out and deals with problems or relationships around the world and has a series of ambassadors that at the state level that's sort of concentrated right here.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Well, that isn't contrary. We have the governor has excellent cabinet officers and and their subject matter expertise. I mean, whether it's uh a Tracy Gruber at Health and Human Services or Carlos Briseras at UDO, I work with awesome people, but I am sent out and and that's part of my part of my assignment. Well, I also oversee boards and commissions and constituent calls. We have 400 boards and commissions in our state. Yeah. So uh a lot of different boards out there.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

So you get to go around to a bunch of different groups. Like I would think cabinet members sort of transportation deals and transportation, and that can be anywhere in the state and everywhere in the state. But you're the relationship guy and the and the I would say institutional knowledge guy, especially since correct me if I'm wrong. So your first governor that you worked for was Levitt. Yeah, I worked for Levitt on his campaign.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Levitt, I didn't directly work for the lieutenant governor uh Oleen Walker, who is a wonderful person, I might add. I love Oline. Um but then worked full full time for Governor Huntsman and then Governor Herbert and now uh so Levitt campaign, not Levitt administration, not Walker administration.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Right. But then in for Huntsman, Herbert and Huntsman. Okay. All right. But either way, like you're you've been around for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

It's it's fun and it's a balance. Uh the times you want new people, new ideas, new energy. I mean, Tyler Clancy just came over the administration from the legislature. He's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Uh he's a friend of the pod. He was our third guest.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Was he your third guest? You were lucky to get him. Tyler's uh Tyler's awesome. Um so I work with a lot of wonderful people. Uh but it is helpful to have somebody go, okay, well, we tried this in such and such year. It was kind of for years, kind of Lyle Hilliard played that role in the legislature where he had been there and he'd say, Well, in 1987, we tried that in the downturn, and here's what happened. So it's kind of every once in a while it's helpful to uh, you know, share some some recollections from the past. Yeah. So what did you do on the Levitt campaign? And what'd you learn from the communications director? I became such a huge fan of Governor Mike Levitt. I was brought on, he was uh forced into a primary, and uh I was brought on the next day, and then he uh ran that fall against Bill Orton. And um I got into motorhome with him, we shrink dracked a motorhome, and uh Kelly Cassidy would drive it, and we literally went all over the state, kind of reintroducing people to the governor, and he had he had high approval ratings uh and was working hard. Uh but you gotta remind people of that sometimes, and you gotta get out there in the communities and first election. It was his third and final election. And he was he was awesome. I had been roommates with his brother David uh at BYU at the Jerusalem uh center before it was the center, and so I kind of knew of the family, and I had uh been a big fan of his when he was running for governor, so it was really cool to be able to uh do that. I took a leave uh from where I was practicing law. At legal aid, they were very kind to give me some time off, and and uh I was able to go and spend six months doing that, and then went from there to Provo City. But uh I have the utmost respect for Mike Levitt. If I was trying to think of different things about di different governors, he was a great visionary of kind of where is Utah now, where do we fit in, where are we on the world stage? And he did a great job and his team, um Natalie Gockner and Vicky Varella and others of of of taking and and Rich McKeon, of course. All right, we've got this chance to be on the world stage in the Olympics. How do we move Utah up to being a world, a world community? You know, on the how do we how do we bring Utah up to the world stage? And and and that was huge. They did an excellent job with that.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

Yeah. Um so you mentioned that Jason Schafitz was your connection to the Huntsman administration. Tell me what you did for uh Governor Huntsman uh and uh what you learned from the U.S.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

Governor Huntsman a couple of different roles. Uh was the Ledge Affairs Director beginning, and then went on uh as deputy chief of staff, and then to a position in the state planning coordinator, which was kind of a a new position. I became the state's Obama stimulus. Uh kind of a career killer if you're a Republican. All of a sudden, all this Obama money. I'll tell you, I'm I've yeah, I am not running for anything at any time. Uh I dodged an election of our HOA board last week, so I'm happy to just cheer from the sides. Uh that one was interesting because everybody had a shovel-ready project. And the downturn of the economy in 08 and 09 was very real and very challenging. And it was how do you how do you best deploy this money that's coming in one time and um get projects and good results? And so it was a busy, it was a busy year. What did you learn from working in the Huntsman administration? Uh Governor Huntsman, great fellow. He was a lot of fun. Liz and I were dating at the time, and and it was fun to be able to double date with John and Mary Kay Huntsman and uh ride around with them to events and and they'd give us advice as a uh a couple dating. Uh he was there to speak at our wedding reception. Yeah, he was uh they he was a he was a class act. I enjoyed working for him, and Mary Kay, everybody loves Mary Kay. She's just a delightful person.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Absolutely. So uh Governor Huntsman goes on to uh work for your boss, Obama, yeah. In China.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

That's the kind of comment that gets into trouble.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

That's how we know what to clip to put on social media.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

So he went no, I remember being in the room one day. We're in uh what's called the Rampton boardroom, which is a governor's office boardroom, get a knock at the door, in they come, and they pull the governor out. He said, You wanted on the phone. Well, there's only a couple of people that the governor leaves his meeting for to take a phone call from. And that's when we realized, oh, this this might be it. And it was. And that's when again um there was a several month transition period, and then then Lieutenant Governor Gary Herbert became Governor Gary Herbert.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

Yeah. Um and you were just kind of stayed on through that transition. What was that like going through a transition like that? Because you guys had your mind.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

That one was a little different because you couldn't say anything. And the the Governor Huntsman couldn't say anything. And so it was it was a it was a unique time because he's he's prohibited from saying anything while the confirmation process is going on. So who's who's kind of in charge? Well, it was, of course, Governor Huntsman, but you couldn't be uh as public. Uh it was uh you had to be a little more um circumspect in your comments to the public, that sort of stuff. So anyway, it was an interest it was an interesting time. And then Gary Herbert came on, and he, Gary and Jeanette are absolutely incredible people, just awesome, just a lot of fun to work um for several years uh with him. And um, you know, he remains a great friend of this day.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

What's your best Gary Herbert story?

SPEAKER_00 25:57

There are so many, but they're all inspiring and uplifting. I mean, he's a good thing. That's how you stick around for four administration. But he really was. I never I always say I never give an insincere compliment. I never give an inscre compliment. He was just a good, good man. And uh he I remember he'd had a he had a great run as governor. It's the last week of the last session, and we're sitting around a table, and I'm with um uh uh Derek and Justin and and uh Bob Henry and and the then Lieutenant Governor Spencer Cox and Governor Herbert were talking about issues, and someone pulls up their phone and looks down and says, There's this virus going on in China. I wonder if it's gonna be an issue. And that defined the next nine months. Within a week, it had come to Utah, and you had Rudy Gobert, and it was a very, very tough time to govern. And we had been kind of like, what does the governor do after the last of the legislative session his last year? I mean, do you go tour the state, or do you go visit uh different projects? I mean, kind of what do you do? Do you finally get him to Farron? Uh uh true story, true story. Governor, Governor Herbert uh was doing the math and realized he had been to Farron five times in three years, and I got booted off the team that did the he's like, Mike, I don't need to go to Farron for the Cub Scout dinner. I love the Cub Scouts, but I you know that's a long drive down the back. So I was kind of booted off the uh scheduling team uh when they finally realized that all roads didn't necessarily need to go to Farron all the time. So we tried to get him out there, but Governor Herbert was great because he was everywhere. I mean, the story was oh, if you had an event with Republicans, he he'd go.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

He'd go to all sorts of meetings and I think the phrase was wherever there are two or more Republicans gathered, there is Gary. Yeah. And and I I'm gonna just say annoyingly, couldn't get him out of there.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Right. No, true story. I'm in uh Carbon County Lincoln Day dinner in uh Price. Yeah. We're at the old Elks Lodge down there, and he speaks, a couple more speakers, and those evenings, you know, everybody gets a chance at the mic, and it's nine o'clock, and literally everybody was gone. And at 9 45, the governor's still visiting with the nice fellow from Helper who drove down to talk about a specific issue. The custodian finally comes up to me and says, Will you guys please leave? I want to go home. And I had to move the conversation outside.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

And not an isolated incident because I know uh I flew with him once to DC and he was there for a bunch of National Governors Association meetings. But the first stop we landed and went like directly to uh I think it was the natural gas building, and uh there was a reception there for uh now the late Mia Love, who had just been elected to Congress and had just been sworn in if I recall. And we go in and it's the same thing. Uh in fact, we're in the elevator, and it's it's me, uh, my business partner Wes Smith was with us, and then uh uh the governor, and he just said, Hey, I'm tired after this flight. Let's let's try to keep this one short. And I was like, Great, let's do it. I know where this is. I'm gonna try to hold you to that. And so, like being a good staff member, like we kind of rotated in, like, yeah, governor how we need to move you. Yeah. And he said, and the same deal. We're there as they're putting chairs up. You're like, I cannot get this guy out of here. I was gonna have to go buy a chocolate banana shake and see if I could lure him out.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

He he was so good to spend so much time with people and just and just loved doing it. His his mantra was conservative in principle, uh, moderate in tone, inclusive in process, and he really worked hard to bring people around the table and uh even when they put that table away.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

Still was there trying to bring him to the table. Bring the table back. I gotta bring the table. He was awesome. Okay, uh, last one, because we're making our way through governors. Yeah. Uh tell me about the current boss. What do you what do you like about working for Spencer Cox?

SPEAKER_00 29:56

I love Spencer Cox. I love working for Spencer Cox. He um part of my thing has been driving around the state. And if I'm at a county commission meeting somewhere and you're passing through a town, um, I try to stop in and visit with people all over to kind of get the pulse of what's going on in the state. Years ago, I'd stop in. If I was ever passing through Fairview, I'd stop in to say hi to first Fairview Mayor, then Fairview County Commissioner, uh, or Sam Peak County Commissioner, Spencer Cox. Hey, what's going on in Fairview? What's going on in rural Utah? He is super smart. Um he's brilliant. He he writes his own material, he writes uh he he's an excellent writer, great wordsmith, great thinker. Um I can't say enough nice about Governor Cox. So I've had opportunities at different places, times to go different places. I'm like, I love working for these governors. I love Utah, I love meeting the people of Utah. And and Governor Cox and especially Abby Cox have been no exception. I mean, they're just quality people who do a wonderful job representing our state, uh, not only at the state level, but certainly at the national level, whether he's the head of NGA or uh he just finished up a turn as chair of the Western Governors Association. I mean, he's he he's a class act.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

So after all these years working in various administrations, what's the one habit that you have built, that you've worked to build, uh that makes you better at your job?

SPEAKER_00 31:22

Um I try well, I try. I I'm hardworking and honest. I love what I do, but uh I try to work really hard to to spread the news, to represent Utah well, to represent the governor's office well. I've I and it's it's made all the easier because I've had really wonderful colleagues. I've been in political offices where the the internal politics of the office itself were so combative and people were jealous of each other and you know complaining against each other that you kind of dreaded going to work. Since I've been in the governor's office, that there's been a culture set there that that just doesn't exist. There's I I've been there a long time. There's not backbiting, there's not, you know, the senior advisors we all cheer each other on. We've got a, you know, we've had I've worked for several great chiefs of staff while I've been there. Uh I I look at our our current chief of staff, John Pierrepont. A tr you know, it's a tricky job. You're managing your senior staff, the governor's schedule, and 24 cabinet officers. It's it's a lot of work, but they he does an excellent job at it. They've been great to work with, very supportive of each other. It's uh as I say, I I I love Utah, I love our governors. It's it's it's fun to go to work and spread their messages. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

Uh we're running short on time, so I want to finish with the lightning round. Okay. Some big questions. Better grab a little quick. Take a sip while we get ready for the lightning round. Okay. Uh, Farron plug. Let's start here. If you had 24 hours to take someone to your Farron, what are the top three stops?

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Well, Millsite Reservoir for water skiing, uh, mill site um golf course to play on Utah's most incredible golf course, and a trip uh down memory lane to Lemon's Dairy. Okay. All of those uh sound like a lot of fun. And I have my friend Hallie right beside us to show us around.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Um you meet with a lot of people, you've met with a lot of people over the years. Uh talk to me about a Utah Power Lunch. Where are you going and what are you ordering?

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Utah Power Lunch, we're going to hires, and I'm getting the big H. Okay. The rogue for big H. The roke. What's the rope for big H it has blue cheese on it? Okay. And it's kind of the fancy word for blue cheese. The blue cheese on the song, yeah. Next time we go to hires, you'll want that. It's a good stuff. It's a very small. I love hires.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

Non-fair in word for you. Uh what's a song that instantly resets your mood?

SPEAKER_00 33:38

Uh 500 miles. I I don't know. I don't know. I like 500 miles.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

Don't sing it because we can't pay for it. So we don't keep it under 12 seconds or we'll have to pay for it. Uh what's the most underrated skill for surviving in a governor's office?

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Um Empathy? I don't know. I I try I really people come to you at their most challenging moments. And and whether they're behind in a check or they've got a family member incarcerated, I really try to empathize, at the very least, sympathize with what they're going through and try to help them out.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

Wrong answer. The right answer is always check with the communication director first. That's the right answer.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

All right. What's the funniest professional move you've seen someone to try to pull in Utah politics?

SPEAKER_00 34:24

Oh, I could I could I'm saving that one for my book. I'm saving that one.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

That and I hadn't thought of anything quick.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

I'll pivot to okay, what's the title of the book? Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

Also on board.

SPEAKER_01 34:35

Also on board.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

I used to say it was and I'm not writing a book. But I used to say to Governor Herbert all the time, because we'd be flying on that state plane, and people think, ooh, fancy state plane. The old one was a little bit of here's what's going to happen. Heaven forbid the plane goes down, as it regrettably has for the governors. And yeah, Governor Herbert would get the headline, and I would get the also on board, Bob the pilot, Mike the Mike the PR guy.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Two things for Matt then. One, yes, the state plane is small, and it's the first time when you're on it and the wind blows, you can see what you feel like the tail move. It's not like flying on a big plane in a big way. It's not a different thing. The second thing is, I just want to call attention to that. You said you're not writing a book, and that's because, Mike, that requires work product, and that's not your thing. So that's just how that goes. Uh all right, let's with comments like that.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

Who needs energy? That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

Uh okay, last one. What is the best piece of advice that you would give a younger Mike Maur to help him succeed in his career? Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

I talk to a lot of people, and it's like relationships matter. And you build relationships by being honest with people, by being direct with people, uh, not just telling them what they want to hear, but sometimes what they need to hear, but there's a nice way to do that. And uh work on relationships because you'll be back together again. And you all share the common goal: loving Utah, loving America, loving your fellow man.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Mike, you're a good man. Thanks for doing this.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

Thanks, thanks, honor to be here.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

May all of your diet, Dr. Peppers, be chilled and crispy. Cheers.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Hey, my thanks to Mike Mauer for stopping by for a chat. He's one of a kind and one of my favorites and one of my favorite co-workers of all time. I think you understand by listening to that conversation. A reminder back channel is a northbound strategy production. Subscribe to the audio version of our show wherever you get your podcasts. You can find us on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, and TikTok everywhere as at Backchannel Uton. We have video now on Apple Podcasts as well. Thanks so much for being with us. We'll see you again next week.