Bonus Episode: Beyond the Buzz: What 45 Years in Human Resources Says About What’s Next

What’s changing in compensation, total rewards, and Human Resources—and what should leaders be paying attention to next?

In this special episode of What the Comp?! – The Pay Strategy Podcast, Jennifer Loftus is joined by Michael Maciekowich, National Director at Astron Solutions, for a different kind of 2026 conference season recap.

With more than 45 years in the profession, Mike brings the perspective of a senior advisor, business owner, and thought leader who has watched Human Resources and total rewards evolve through changing employee expectations, new technology, shifting business priorities, and countless compensation trends.

Jennifer and Mike explore the biggest themes coming out of the 2026 WorldatWork and SHRM conference season, what those conversations mean for Human Resources leaders and executives, and where compensation and total rewards may be headed next.

This conversation goes beyond conference highlights to focus on a bigger question:

How can organizations make compensation decisions that support their people while also protecting the long-term health of the business?

If your organization is wrestling with changing workforce expectations, compensation strategy, total rewards, or the future of Human Resources, this episode will give you plenty to think about.

What the Comp?! is brought to you by Astron Solutions.

About What the Comp?
What the Comp? – The Pay Strategy Podcast is hosted by Jennifer Loftus, National Director at Astron Solutions. Each episode helps human resources, finance, and organizational leaders make compensation clearer, stronger, and easier to explain. Subscribe for practical conversations on pay transparency, salary structure, market data, employee communication, and compensation strategy. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to What the Common, the Pay Strategy podcast, where compensation stops being confusing and starts making sense for real organizations. I'm Jennifer Loffus, National Director at Astron Solutions. And today we're taking a break from our usual format. Earlier this summer, we shared a world at work at the Society for Human Resource Management conference recap with Kim Harmon and Nick Velasquez, members of the Astron Solutions consulting team. This time we're looking at the conference season through a different lens. Not only from the perspective of a compensation professional, but also from the perspective of a senior advisor and thought leader who has spent more than 45 years watching the human resources and total rewards of professions evolve. Joining me today is Michael Massikovich, the other national director at Astron Solutions and my business partner for the last 27 years. Mike has seen trends come and go. Technology reshaped the profession. And organizations repeatedly wrestling with the same challenge. How do we make compensation decisions that important both our people and the long-term health of our organization? Mike and I will explore what's about during the 2026 conference season. What human resources leaders and executives should be paying attention to, and what these conversations may be telling us about the future of compensation, total rewards, and organizational leadership. Mike, thanks for joining me on What the Comm.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Well, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

Oh, you're always welcome here. And you know, we've got a lot to explore, so why don't we dive in? So for our listeners who aren't familiar with the Society for Human Resource Management uh conference, or SHERM, as we'll call it through the episode here, you know, if you had to sum up that experience in just one word, what would that word be? And of course, you know I'm gonna ask why.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Right. Yes. Uh I would say overwhelming.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

Overwhelming. Okay. Tell me, tell me more.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

And overwhelming mainly because of size. I mean, you're talking twenty to twenty-five thousand human resource practitioners all funneled into one place. Yeah, that's a lot. That's a lot. That's a lot. It's a lot of internal and all and overwhelming from the standpoint of the choices they have. You know, I've heard that from members before where they go, I'm not sure what I can get to.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Or can I get to it all?

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

And even the exhibit hall.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

You have 600 plus exhibitors that they're trying to go around to learn some of the latest uh techniques, uh technology, and many times they get maybe a third through that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

It's like a football field or two.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

So it can be overwhelming for a lot of people. Uh and again, it's also depending on how you use that. I think a lot of people, a lot of people go and they're just going for the sessions, right? They want to learn something.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

They want to get their recertification credits. That's right. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

So they're there for a lot of different reasons. But to me, the the ones who really use it for networking are getting the most out of it. Because think about you have all of these other human resource professionals from all over the world that are dealing with some of the same issues. So, you know, it's interesting if you sit at the lunch tables and listen to the conversations, you know, that sometimes is more valuable than even the sessions themselves because they're asking questions like, have you ever dealt with this issue? Or how did you deal with that? Or how did you get your boss to understand what you need to do? So to me, those folks are starting to grasp what the real value of that conference is.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Not to take away from the sessions.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

For educational purposes. Absolutely. But I think that those who don't take advantage of that are losing a great opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Exactly. To talk with your peers, to meet new people, to find, oh, I'm not the only person who's grappling with this problem. And get some new new ideas there. Yes. Yeah. No, absolutely. It's certainly a lot, right? That's how you're going to do that. It is a lot there.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

It is a lot.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

And it can be hard too, because you know, at any given time there may be 10 or 15 different sessions going on. And what if you want to go to both? And how do you pick? And you've got some overwhelm there.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

And there's also disappointment to a certain degree. I've heard from people who say, I was expecting something different in the session. And so one of the problems that I know from Sherman's an organization, how do they better manage those sessions in terms of, you know, unlike your session at the National Conference, it was wonderful and educational, and you were not selling.

SPEAKER_03 5:08

Right.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

And that's always a concern that sometimes consultants get the session and at the end they say, Well, I'd like to share more information, but give me your card and we'll call you. And they're trying to actually sell. So I think that one of the challenges for Sherman, and I'm sure they know this, is how they better manage uh those programs in advance to be sure that people are really getting what they thought they were going to get.

SPEAKER_03 5:34

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Because I've heard that, and we've heard that in the exhibit hall. Oh, sure. Where people say, nah, I didn't really like that session, or it was disappointing.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

Or they didn't teach me anything new.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

Right. You know.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

So sometimes those little summaries may not cover exactly what's the expected outcome.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Which they need to get better at, I think, as well. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

And that's hard. And I know me as a speaker, and I'm sure you, you know, as a speaker as well, in your mind, you know, this is what I'm going to cover. Right. And you try and write that summary and those learning objectives as best you can, but then other people are interpreting that differently. They're thinking, they're bringing their own biases or agendas to it. And then it's like, well, it it didn't align. Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

So I think the key is on the learning objectives, people really want to walk away with something they can actually use.

SPEAKER_03 6:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

I can go back to my office and oh, they told me if I do step one, two, and three. And so that's what I've tried to do on a lot. I know you did that, is to say, here, you know, here's all the theoretical early on, but let's talk about the practical. Yes. What can I really do and take out of that session that I can use tomorrow? And I don't have to call anybody. I can actually try to do that myself.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Yes, exactly. Those immediate takeaways, those immediate action items are everybody's looking for that, right? We're not here at a university class. We're not here for the theory per se. Right. It's more how do I how do I use this?

SPEAKER_00 7:02

And you know, another issue, of course, is the level of the practitioner. Well, because Sherm being so big at 25, you know, thousand people, you're going to get a large group of entry novices that are coming in for the first time. So they're wanting to learn everything.

SPEAKER_03 7:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

And then you'll have other people who are like myself, have been in the field for many, many years.

SPEAKER_03 7:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

And they're the ones who probably get the most disappointed because they're saying, well, I already know that.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Yeah. What did I learn from this? Was there anything new that I could take from that? And that's another challenge, you know, in terms of I know they try to uh Yeah, this is entry level. Is it entry or novice or immediate, but that doesn't always you know flow exact completely. So those are challenges that they have as well. Yes, yes, of course.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

Yes. And and to be fair, I think it's not just sure. I think every anybody who's doing a conference. Every conference. Every conference. Yes. So what did you find surprising about this year's event?

SPEAKER_00 8:03

What always surprises me is the same issues that are coming up. You know, we sit there for well, I've been doing this now all these years, and we've been doing 27 years. Yes. Yeah. And and for that people are coming up and saying, Well, I'm struggling in putting job descriptions together. Right. And I'm sitting there, I'm going, well, but isn't that a basic? That's where you start from. Or, you know, our merit pay system's not working. Well, why is it not working? Well, because the managers aren't able to assess performance properly. Right. Well, how many times have we heard that? And over and over. So it's it was very surprising. And actually, this year was more active than other years at our at our booth. Yes. We had a lot more people come by, but they were also coming by with some of the same issues. And and you're sitting there that it was like, wait a minute, didn't we talk about this years ago? Twenty years ago. We we took care of that. Yes. You know, so it was very interesting to see that uh different organizations in different parts of the country are still kind of facing different issues that maybe some in these big cities have already taken care of. Now you have the rural areas or they're new. Again, it's that issue of their competency, and they're still struggling because there's no one in their company that they can turn to. You know, they go to the CFO, but CFO's not going to give them an answer on better merit system. You know, so that's the struggle, I think. So, yes, I thought that was very surprising that we had a lot of repeat conversations going through, and and the challenges that they're facing now in terms of, well, we're cutting costs, you know, we have to watch our budget, and I'm being asked as the HR professional to do more.

SPEAKER_03 9:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

And and to come up with answers without bringing somebody else in.

SPEAKER_03 9:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

And and that is a challenge because they know they need the help, but they're not always allowed to bring others in. So that's why they go to the sessions, hoping they're going to be able to take that. Uh, you know, and the other big issue that was not not a big surprise with the news today was AI.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

Oh my gosh, yes. Kim and Nick and I spoke about AI, but yeah, let's hear your take on what I think.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

And it was interesting that, you know, they're being told, well, just use AI. You know, why just use AI?

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Just AI.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Yeah, go to go to ChatGPT or whoever, Gemini or whatever you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

Whatever you're using.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

Whatever you're using, and just get the answers. And and now, you know, deal with that. And in fact, it was interesting. We were talking this morning. I have a client who we've worked with for many years doing the annual update in the market because market pricing their jobs. Right, because market pricing is, as we all know or should know, it's more than just that one number, it's what that number represents. Exactly. Right, your industry segment, your size, your revenue, your location, all different things, you know, what kind of industry you're in.

SPEAKER_03 11:05

Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

And so the the new president of this organization gave a directive to the HR folks to say, we're not gonna have Astron do our update anymore. Uh-huh. Because you should be able to do that through Chat GPT.

SPEAKER_02 11:22

I know listeners, I'm like fainting here in the chair. Oh my gosh, there are so many potential pitfalls with this.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Right, because again, first of all, what's the source? You know, and having to look at the source. And if you do your own testing, I would recommend anyone listening to be very careful, look look at the source, and then actually click on that because you can go into the source. Right. And so you can start seeing, well, what are they because all they're doing is it's it's a shortcut for a search. Right. It's calling data. That's all it is.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

But what is that data? Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

And is that data representing you know who you are? Yes. You know, I did a test, I said, what's an accountant in New York City make? Right. And it gave me, it gave me the the percentiles and all the information. But it doesn't tell me, well, what does that represent? Is that the whole city? Is it? Well, it probably is. And if it is, well, wait a minute, you're a nonprofit, you're for-profit, you're a hundred million, you're twenty million revenue, right? So, how accurate is that information, unless all you care about is all of New York City?

SPEAKER_02 12:26

Right, random number. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

So it was interesting that people were coming up talking about that, you know, in terms of you know, in fact, someone even asked, I remember at our booth, so how are you incorporating AI into your, you know, research? And really, we don't, technically. I mean, it's it's a place if you want to start, and you could say, okay, so in the crowdsource world where it's not being vetted and we're not getting the detail, this is the general answer to your question. So now let's take that and vet that against the more detail that we're providing that will then give you a more concise answer to how you need to be uh compensating your jobs. Right. So I found that was very interesting that uh there's pressure out there. Yes, there's pressure by job descriptions.

SPEAKER_03 13:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

You know, can you write a job description through that? Yes, you can.

SPEAKER_03 13:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Is it does it really represent you? Are you just taking that for face value, or should you be sending that to the manager to say, is this your job?

SPEAKER_03 13:32

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

We had another client wanted to do a career path in in engineering, you know, like from entry to a senior engineer.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

How they can promote. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

And so instead of letting us help to design it, they had one of their comp analysts just go into Chat GPT again. Okay. And I'm not here recommending just them. But they used it, and since that seems to be one of the more common ones, and it actually did give them a full engineering career path with requirements, qualifications, uh competencies, everything. And they took that and that's what they used.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

Did they even vet it, look at it, and say, does this okay? And I think that's the problem. Right. If if we're getting something from AI, we can use that as a starting point, right? To brainstorm to get the process moving. But you, me, HR professionals, we have to look at this and say, is this logical? Is this right? Does this make sense for our organization? Right. I I know when we were at the our our booth in the exhibit hall, we were talking about something that just came up in the news recently, about some organization where the HR, I think it was the HR manager, had gone into one of the AI models and went through and uh was trying to decide if they should fire somebody or not. And the AI said, oh yes, yes, you should fire them. And then they did, and now there's a lawsuit about this. That's right. Right. So we can't rely solely on AI. But it's a it's a buzzword, it's a thing, it's reality.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Well, it's it's it's the hot topic. Yes. Although now we're having a conflict, though, in in our in our world, in our society, because of the issue of data centers, right? Which is tying into AI. As AI grows, we need more data centers in order to do that. Yes. But now there is this movement from our new groups, our b especially our Gen Zs, and everything concerned about how that's going to you know uh affect the environment and everything. So if we even here in New York, right, there's gonna be a moratorium, I believe, Governor Holkel, yes. On building any more data centers. So if you don't have the data centers, then how's AI going to continue to function or or improve? Because right now it's really basic. I mean, when you think about it, it's we're not really, you know, taking over the human resource department with a little camera, and you sit there and talk with them.

SPEAKER_02 16:08

Let's hope we never get to that point, right? Oh my goodness, this sounds very Terminator, rise of the machines or something here.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Well, you know, it reminds me of a of a movie many years ago, up in the air. I don't know if you remember the George Clooney with George Clooney, where he was the uh the person that was sent to lay off people. Yes. But he did it in person. And he had, you know, he ended up with like 10 million miles on a on the airline, and he was always going somewhere in person to talk with someone about you are now losing your job. And towards the end of that movie, they started introducing really the first version of AI where you didn't have to be there in person, you could do it through like Zoom.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Oh, geez.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Okay, so so the packet was at the desk, you're not there, and you're on a camera, and then you're starting to tell the person now, sorry, but we're going to r eliminate your job. There's a packet, just signed this document. And you could see how it changed the emotion where he was able to deal with the people in person versus go even going through a Zoom camera, it changed the whole nature of the meeting. So I really think there's only so much that AI is going to be used for in the human resource arena because we are still human resources and we deal with people every day. And that is our job. That is right. That's very, very important. So I know Sherm actually had, I believe, a few sessions on a number, yes. On, you know, don't for but that's really the message I believe that that people, and I did hear some people talk about that, that trying to push back in their companies, don't forget, we're here, we have to deal with people.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

And even if I'm giving them bad news, I'd rather sit there in person and tell them that and explain that to them. Just like a manager doing a performance review. Think if they were doing that on a Zoom camera, yeah. It really would have no effect at all.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

I know. We did it during the pandemic because we had to, but not ideal situation.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

So I think that was kind of a part of the buzz was how does this all start working together?

SPEAKER_03 18:21

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

Because they're being pushed from a cost standpoint.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

AI could maybe save us some money, but in the meantime, we're starting to lose that touch. You know? And so that's that's that was an issue that was coming up a lot during the conference.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, that was probably the hottest topic. And you know, you've mentioned cost and thinking about going to SHERM or World at Work or Ashra or you know, any of these conferences that are out there, this is a significant investment, right? The registration fees are a couple thousand dollars, depending on when you register. You've probably got airfare, hotel, foods, et cetera. You know, so we're looking at at least $3,000, if not more, to go to a conference. So how should someone approach their manager to say, let's invest this money? You know, why why should we spend this money for me to go to a conference? That's a good point. And especially in the in-person, because they do have the virtual option.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

Right. Yeah, I think that again, it goes back to my first statement that if the purpose is more than just attending a session to get certified, right? To get your certification hours.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

Yes, which are important. I'm biased, I admit this, but those are important.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

But yes, you can do that virtually. Yes, absolutely. You don't have to go to the conference. Right. Don't have to have the hotel, don't have to all these things. But if you're going, because as a human resource practitioner, you need to interface with others. You need to have that connection where you're starting to hear how other people are dealing with issues. To me, then that's you you'd have to somehow put that into a ROI, into a return on investment. So, what's the return of spending the money for me to go there, you know, and spend those thousands of dollars? Well, potentially, we've been facing this issue for the last six months in our company. I'm hoping I'm going to be able to come back with an answer. Now, it's up to the person who goes to come back and say, here's what I heard.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

They have to deliver on the merit pay is not working. Oh, well, what I heard is that we need to move more towards incentives versus merit pay. Okay, so now I have a solution, but I wouldn't have had that solution if I hadn't gone and met with people who have actually tried it. Because it's one thing to hear the theoretical, it's another thing to hear the practical. And to hear when people say, Hey, we tried that. Don't go down this road. Yeah. That's not working, but maybe go this way. And they can hear that, and even from vendors too. Oh, yeah. Because you know, we get a lot of those questions at our booth where they'd say, Well, how would you deal with this?

SPEAKER_03 21:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

So kind of free advice. Yes. And we're willing to do that when we're there to show our expertise. And so to me, that's where they have to really make the case that the return on investment is that I'm going to be networking to get better answers, not just from the sessions.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Because I can do that virtually.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

Absolutely. And you know, thinking about that and building on that, I know you didn't do it this year, maybe next year. They did have the feature called brain date, right? Where someone could host a set like a roundtable discussion with up to I think it was either eight or ten other people. And so I did one of those. They asked all the speakers if if we could to host a brain date. And the people that joined mine, it was a lot of that, right, in real time. You know, here's the situation we're faced with. Oh, well, I ran into that last year. Right. Don't do this, try that. Have you looked And so forth. Yeah, it's that immediate peer networking, consulting, problem solving. And you'll get through Zoom.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Yes big time. Yes. More than they did. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

It was a little bit of a best kept secret, I think, of this year.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Next time around, I think that would become if I were trying to show why you had to spend the money, I could show that type of session and say, but it's not just, you know, a educational session. Right. It's actually a way to brainstorm together with others and a consultant who's there or a speaker leading it. And that way I'll be able to come back with some ideas from that. So to me, that's going to be very important in the future. Because I'm sure as budgets get tighter and people are concerned, you know, how often are they going to want to pay the money to do that? Because it is quite expensive. It is. It is.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

And you know, you and I, we have such a long runway experience with this conference. Our first one was 1999 in Atlanta. And we have not missed one. And I'm curious to hear from your perspective. How has the conference experience and SHERM changed over the last almost I'll roundup, almost 30 years here? Right. And is the value that someone gets from being there different than it was way back in 99 when we were in Atlanta?

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Yeah, I think when we first started, you know, of course, our perspective was as vendors. It's slightly different. But but still, even from that perspective, it was it was kind of like a thing you were supposed to do.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

People were there because, oh, it's Sherm, I'm supposed to go to this. This is what I do.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

I'm a good HR professional, yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

And and the focus in the exhibit hall was picking up chachis. It was just trying to get things to take home to the kids. Trigger-treating. It was trick-or-treating. Very few interactive questions, very few, you know, I have these issues. You know, they were more concerned about just getting through the hall and collect things. Halfway through the sessions. Right. So people were just kind of, and all they wanted really was the handout. Because back then people would they would give paper handouts, right? Yes. So I want a copy of the handout. So they'd go to the session at the beginning, and then about 15-20 minutes into it, they'd sneak out, but they've got their handout.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

And then go get another handout.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

And then they would go get another handout because we didn't have the the CD or whatever, the app. Yeah. Even with even the CD was later, right? That's right.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

We moved from paper to the CDs, the app. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

And so really it was really more of just a thing to do. I I don't really feel early in those early years. Yes. You know, of course, then there was the dramatic change with COVID, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

And and even during the COVID years, we still went. Yes. And that was very interesting of how they were, and that's where the virtual part of it came in. So I think over the years, the last five years, I would say, let's only go back five years post-COVID, uh, has been more of what we saw this year. More of the I'm really looking for solutions. Yeah. I'm here to network, I'm here to learn, I have an issue that I'm trying to deal with. This is the place to come to because this is where we're bringing together 25,000 from around the world. Right. And so there's bound to be somebody who's had this same issue that I have. So I think after COVID, there was more concern. Well, think about it. After COVID, we had the hyperinflation. Yes. We had the great resignation. So we've had all these things which are kind of still there, but you know, so we're still dealing with issues. But prior to COVID, it was almost like we were we were fat and happy.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Well, plug and play.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

Yeah, we weren't too worried about things. Yeah, we did a lot of mechanics in our projects, but not as much. I would say even our work has changed after that. More we're getting more philosophical. We're getting into what are the strategies that are going to help us to continue or expand for the future. Pre-COVID, you know, it was pretty much just survive and do your things. I mean, we had to go through the 08-09 little response that we had. And I think that that is affecting SHERM. You're getting people now that today, you know, especially even today, you know, one of the questions is if you had to kind of guess what 2027 is going to look like, that's really hard right now. It's very hard. And and not so much that it's an election year, but everything else is going on in the whole world.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

In the whole world. So so and throw in AI on top of that and everything else. So, you know, and even the way our society is dividing up again. I mean, this whole the whole movement of the socialism.

SPEAKER_03 27:13

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

You know, which who would have ever thought that would be a movement again.

SPEAKER_02 27:18

Here we are in 2026.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

But we have another generation that is driving that. And and we need to hopefully, even in human resources, that's going to have an effect.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

That's going to have an effect because there are now, think about pay transparency. Yes. Why that is such a hot topic is because I have the right to know.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

To know these things.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

I have the right. Yeah. Right. Because even though I'm an employee back in yours truly today, you know, I always tell people back in the day we considered pay confidential.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

Yes, but not anymore.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

And in fact, you signed a confidentiality agreement. So if you talked about pay, we fired you. I mean, it was it was uh it was it was and that was the end of the story.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

Yes, yes. But now we've got the National Labor Relations Act.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

You told Joe that what you're making, well, you signed this agreement of confidentiality, you're gone. And even though you're the best performer, we actually, I mean, I know, I think back and it was like it was a bunch of different worlds, but you know, 50, 40 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

But again, the the the pay transparency, I think, is kind of an outcome of our societal change.

SPEAKER_03 28:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Because if you think about socialism means that that we all have a say.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Right? We're all there's not just the leadership running the place. We all are running the place. So therefore, we all need to know everything.

SPEAKER_03 28:43

Everything, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

And therefore, I need to know pay for everybody, and I need to know how I'm going to advance, and all these things. So there's gonna be a lot of more demands uh in the next few years. So to me, that is what's happening.

SPEAKER_03 28:58

I think we're going through a a course correction right now.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

Right, the pendulum is swinging here. So we're we're in the summer, and as we head towards 27, I think it's going to be shifting how certain things are going to be developed.

SPEAKER_03 29:13

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

You know, I think we're gonna see more open incentive programs. Oh, interesting. Where goals and objectives are public.

SPEAKER_02 29:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

Published.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

Getting rid of the proverbial black box here. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

Think about for those who have e-sops, right? I mean, you think about an ESOP is a classic example of transparency because I'm an owner, right? So I should know how well the company's doing.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

So ESOP being employee stock ownership plan. Yep. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

So everybody owns the company technically. Yeah. So therefore, I have a right to see everything. So if you take that model without the formal stock, then I think you're gonna see that we need to be thinking differently going into the future. And that's gonna be a challenge, and I'd be very interesting to see. I'm gonna bet Sherman will pick up on that.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

Oh, I'm sure. I think that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

That'll be a topic for next year for I'm I'm positive.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

Absolutely. And I'm thinking I'm probably gonna misspeak, so I'm gonna apologize to you and to our listeners if I am not saying this correctly. But I believe there's a new law coming in New York, or it may already, I don't think it's come out yet, but pretty soon, where now employees have the right to go and look at their files and you know, there's something with that, you know. And I'm like, all right, that's a night, I need to follow up on this category, so that's why I'm hesitating a little bit here. But it's going along right with I want to see what is the pay, or what is this or that that would break the training?

SPEAKER_00 30:40

Yes, you know, so what's in there? Transparency is going to be throughout the entire process that you're going to be looking at. And I think that the companies that early on jumped on the bandwagon of transparency have found that they're doing much better in their recruitment strategy and their retention strategy because this younger generation, as I can look at it that way, as the old boomer that's hanging in there, uh, that that that generation is very much transparent among themselves.

SPEAKER_03 31:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

So they share everything. Yes. They share everything, they share what they're making, their job about their boss, about their company. They're constantly. You don't need Glassdoor. I mean, Glassdoor was the beginning of that. Glassdoor.com was where people employees could do reviews on the company.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

And I think they just got bought out by LinkedIn. In LinkedIn, yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

That's they're now tied to LinkedIn, which will be interesting. So I think though, that that that's already out there with this with the Gen Zs, and now we got Gen Alpha coming in, coming in. And again, they're used to that because they're used to that from school.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

Colleges were very are very transparent.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

You know, rate my professor websites. Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

So so therefore uh they're expecting that in the workplace. So human resources has to adapt, you know, and and kind of evolve to deal with that. And that's the challenge because you still got some of us boomers out there.

SPEAKER_02 32:13

There's still a number of us, yes, who are over the age of 30. Yeah. Gen Xen Xers.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

And and so, you know, and that's part of leadership's challenge too, which HR has to be helpful. Yeah. Because depending on the generation of the leadership, that you're going to maybe have to help them to learn to adapt as well.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

You know, because your gen, your younger millennial, let's say, leaders that come in, which is the largest generation, so there's gonna be a lot of those in leadership.

SPEAKER_03 32:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

They're already pushing things like AI. You know, they're gonna be the ones pushing that. Xlers and Boomers are kind of sitting back going, I'm not sure that's really the way we should go. So again, and I think that Sherm as a national or international organization will be what they do very good job, I think, watching trends. And so as they start seeing these trends, you know, in terms of society, yeah. So if society's starting to push more towards a socialist type of society, how does that affect the workplace and what we do in the workplace? Because you know, what happens to our hierarchies?

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Right. Right?

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Does everybody make the same money, or are we really going to continue to have differences and the differences then become more important in terms of competency or results? Right. So again, there's going to be a lot of those challenges that will be interesting. I'm I'm kind of excited, even as uh as the as the boomer, you know, watching things kind of at towards the end of the career, but it's it's probably the first time for a long time that there's been, I think, this kind of uh upheaval, so to speak, and how that could affect uh what we're doing in human resources.

SPEAKER_02 34:07

Absolutely, because whether we agree or not, right, with what's going on in the larger world and the political landscape, the fact is it does impact our people and our organization. So we can't turn a blind eye to it if we don't like it or if we love it, we're not like you know, over celebrating. We have to have that balance.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

The balance and we have to have the systems in place to help support whatever's gonna be working for us. You know, so compensation, we get back to compensation and how that ties in. Our compensation systems have to be modified enough to reflect how are we now going to uh encourage maybe that transparency, but also how are we going to better reward our employees and be accepting to the fact that they may challenge us along the way.

SPEAKER_02 35:01

Absolutely. And you know, thinking about other trends and and larger society impacting HR, um thinking about the the mix of opportunities at the Sherm conference, but also world at work. I know you didn't come this year, but I would say since COVID, these conferences have changed their presentation model, if you will, right? So if I think before COVID, it was very classroom-like, right? We have a block of sessions and then we have a restroom break, and we have another. It was like we were in high school or something. And now they've got the regular hour-long sessions, but then there's a 15-minute session over here, if you just want a quick deep dive into something, some ad hoc thing is going on over here, and exhibit halls, and brain dates, and all this is going on. And it it feels a little overwhelming in some ways, but is that a larger shift in how people are learning, right? In the learning and development.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

I think so. I think we're we're getting away from that classroom. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised that the traditional presentation model will be gone and that you'll almost be required to have a panel.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Ah, mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

See, I've been seeing more and more panels. Panels, yes, and where you have, yes, you know, the consultant may be the moderator. Sure. But now I've got clients who are now talking about their experience on a panel. I think you're gonna find more and more of those, and Sherm will probably be looking to accept more of those. Because a straight lecture, it it just doesn't cut it. I can I I could go to ChatGPT if I want to. I don't need the straight lecture, you know, or the PowerPoint. I need I need to hear what people are doing or what the what pain did they go through.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

Like we just changed our compensation system. Let me tell you what was difficult or what worked. And having that that story of what the kind of the journey we went through. I think people want to hear that.

SPEAKER_02 37:04

Yes, and and from the speaker side, if you've got a room of 300, 500, a thousand people, you you can't make it personal to everyone. It's just too many people. You can do some interactive polling or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

But you you did a very good job when you were doing that. But still, yeah, but still it's it's tough. It's if, you know, again, having that panel where people are saying, okay, I've learned now from that. You know. And of course, now how they how they can absorb that though.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

That's the other issue. I mean, you know, are we gonna have recordings? Are we gonna have, you know, so you know, there's a lot of things that they're gonna have to work out because I don't want to lose any of that that knowledge.

SPEAKER_02 37:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

You know, so I think do they tape, I forgot, do they videotape the sessions?

SPEAKER_02 37:49

Well, they were live streaming a number of them, and then uh through that live stream somehow they recorded so you can watch on demand for up to, I think it's like 60 days.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

So that's gonna be important more and more that that there be some kind of live streaming or be able to go back, you know, kind of like when you're using your teams now, that you can you can have it create a a recording of your calls so that you can at least go back and understand, well, what did I really hear?

SPEAKER_01 38:17

Yes, you know. Exactly. So but I think that's gonna be once.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

And I and I think that's the future of of the conferences as well. It's going to be those those brain uh brain dates.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Yeah, that's gonna be important. I think you're gonna see more panels in terms of experience sharing actual experiences, not so much the theoretical. Because I think we're beyond that from a theoretical standpoint. If you still need that, then there ought to be a special conference for novice.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

Right, right. 101 of comp benefits.

SPEAKER_00 38:50

And that is someone actually mentioned that at the conference about should not Sherm consider someday having different level uh, you know, conference, like a special conference just for the new people.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

Oh, that could be fun.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

And then you or you'd have one just for the experts. And you have to be ten years or more in the field, right? And only you can go to that conference. And if you're less than six months in the field, you have your own special conference. Right. So those are things that I I'm sure somebody mentioned that. I forgot it was, but anyway, it was uh it was an interesting comment.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

Good idea. Yeah, we'll see if that comes to fruition. You never know. You heard it here first.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

Hopefully, Sherman's watching.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

Oh my gosh. Well, we have been talking for quite a while. Let me ask you. No, this has been the time has flown by for me, I hope for our listeners and our viewers as well. Let me ask, you know, thinking about everything that went on over those five or so days that we were together in Orlando, what was your favorite conference moment? Right? And there were many moments.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

There were many moments.

SPEAKER_02 40:00

There were many moments.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

Which one, or if you had multiple, I will not limit you to just one.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

Yeah, I I think the the uh first of all for look at it from exhibiting and outside of exhibiting. Right.

SPEAKER_03 40:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

So so from an exhibitor standpoint, the favorite moment was actually this entire exhibit time.

SPEAKER_03 40:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 40:22

Because it was the most active and and it was uh it made it go by fast, but also made it more enjoyable. Yes. Because you were interacting more and more with people that were really looking for some solutions. Right. And not just to pick up something we were giving away. Right or scan my bed. So to me, that was that was most memorable this year was was that event.

SPEAKER_03 40:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

And then I'll have to give kudos to the uh uh the Thursday, the uh the night event.

SPEAKER_02 40:55

Oh, the Hollywood Studios event.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

And who's the sponsor? I forgot.

SPEAKER_02 41:00

That was uh Paycom? Yeah, Paycom. Yes, Paycom.

SPEAKER_00 41:03

Paycom did a very good job of those don't know, they opened up Hollywood Studios at what 6 p.m. till eleven p.m.

SPEAKER_02 41:10

or turns out I think they closed it at midnight. They extended it. They extended it. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

Where where the SHERM conference could take it over.

SPEAKER_01 41:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 41:19

And and if you've not been, I hadn't been to Hollywood Studios in years. So you know, all the Star Wars changes and everything.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

So to me, that was well done.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

And that was they should continue that if they can't, of course, need the sponsor to do that. Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

And the venue will, you know, if you're not in Orlando, then what do we do?

SPEAKER_00 41:37

Depending where you where you are. But but that also I think brings, I noticed probably people who normally would not be together.

SPEAKER_03 41:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

New friendships, new interactions. Yes. So I thought that was a a very memorable event.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

Yes. Yeah. It's funny that you pick that because both Nick and Kim also said that that was their favorite memorable moment.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

And granted, I mean, you know, next time's in Chicago. So they can't, there's not really a place you can go in Chicago to do that as much.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Yeah, no, it's not nearly the same.

SPEAKER_00 42:11

But but again, there are opportunities. And I know the vendors, and I'll give them credit, the larger vendors that can do that, uh, do try to make it so even though we know they're selling, but they really are trying to make the social part of the conference so that people who have made some new acquaintances can now continue that friendship outside of the conference itself.

SPEAKER_02 42:35

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

So that's another uh big plus. Why to go to Sherm.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

Yes, exactly. And and I'll build on that because the entire conference was awesome. Right. Everything was good. My presentation was good, the exhibit hall was outstanding, the food was okay, you know, there were no problems with the food, and you know, everything I thought was good. But that night at Hollywood Studios was, well, first of all, if you know I'm a huge Star Wars fan. So immediately that was going to be like a big win right there. But you know, to have that opportunity to build those relationships to network some more in a low pressure, fun environment. And you know, we we both came in on separate vehicles there. So we were a little separated at the beginning, but the first place that all of us, the the rest of us on the Astron team, speed walked to was the Millennium Falcon Smuggler's Run. Yes, because there was a five-minute wait, you know. So we got there, so we got on, and you can fit for those who haven't been, you can fit six into the car. Right. So so we basically flew the Falcon, which was awesome. Oh my gosh. You know, so but but Star Wars aside, yeah, it was awesome because of the reasons that you said, right? We had team bonding, we got to know each other outside of the Astron office and and get to know each other better. And I think we came away a stronger team. I agree. Right. And that's what it's all about. Going, learning, coming back stronger.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

And I was arrested by a stormtrooper.

SPEAKER_02 44:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 44:11

Wanted to know if I had I escaped. They were taking me to jail.

SPEAKER_02 44:18

Oh no, we don't want the first order on you. That's not good.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

My wife was petrified. She goes, what's going on? I said, don't worry, we're okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:28

It's an act. We're okay. We're okay.

SPEAKER_00 44:31

Because he was very serious, but we knew that.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

Yeah, they do not play around, that's for sure. Yes. But but you successfully navigated away from the storm crew. You were released.

SPEAKER_00 44:41

I was answered, I was able to answer the right question. I am not a rebel. Yes. That was to keep asking me, yeah, where's your rebel base? I go, I don't know. I'm not a rebel. No, no. Just a simple farmer. I'm a miner. Yes. You know?

SPEAKER_02 44:54

Yes. I work in the Tavana gas mine. Yes. So there we go. All right. Oh my gosh, Mike. This has been so much fun. And unfortunately, I think we're kind of running out of time here. So Mike, thank you so much for coming up from Raleigh, coming up to New York to be here in person. You're welcome. My pleasure. I enjoyed it. Thank you. And sharing all your insights. We'll love to have you back on the show anytime. You are always welcome.

SPEAKER_00 45:26

You got it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 45:27

Right. So here's where we land. We certainly heard a lot from Mike today. We heard about the changing landscape of conferences. We heard where we think conferences are going to go over the next five years. We heard about networking and AI and whether that may or may not be good for HR. Lots of food of thought, food for thought, pardon me, here that Mike has shared. So if these trends and takeaways are things that your organization is working through, you can see you're not alone. We see this often. And if it's helpful, reach out and mention this bonus episode. We genuinely love to hear what you're seeing. And thanks for listening to What the Comp. If this made you think, please send it to someone who is tackling compensation challenges and trying to address trends without the benefit of having attended these flagship educational events. Because effective results in today's business environment happen when we're armed with critical knowledge. This is what the comp.