Ep 3. and THAT's a VERY Loud Closet 🌈

For the first episode of and THAT's a PRIDE convo, we're joined by Robert "Robbie" Thompson for a conversation about closets, performances, and the versions of ourselves we created long before we knew who we were.

We talk about the signs we ignored, the roles we played, and the idea that maybe we're all born naked and the rest is drag. Because whether you're LGBTQ+ or not, most people spend some part of their life performing for someone else.

From suspicious celebrity crushes and "totally straight" hobbies to deeper conversations about identity, authenticity, and taking back ownership of the word closet, this episode is funny, honest, emotional, and surprisingly relatable.

Because sometimes the closet wasn't quiet at all.

It was VERY loud. 🌈☕🎙️

Robert Thompson's TedTalk: 

Dragging Your Identity into Something Fabulous

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

It's okay to like all musical theater except for Hamilton. That vulnerability and that willingness to get mad that I wasn't telling him what was going on.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

And that's and that's and that's a pod combo. Happy Pride for all of those who observe. And if you don't, stop drinking that hater aid because it ain't cute. But yes, happy pride. We have a really exciting kind of a couple of episodes coming up. And that's a Pride Convo series that's coming up where we will go over the next five episodes diving into different pivotal moments in most LGBTQ people's lives, from being in the closet to realizing it's not just a phase to the possible toxic traits that we pick up in our trying to protect ourselves or going into survival mode to healing and then to eventually evolving and realizing that maybe we aren't becoming something new, but we're actually just fully embracing and becoming who we've always been. That's what that is gonna look like. And we have a couple guests coming on for every um episode, or that is the goal. If you hear this and want to be on, let me know. Um, I will be happy to fold you in. Today we do have Robert Thompson, Robbie, good friend of ours who is jumping on pivotal to our Spokane community, and I'm sure to a lot of other people that they have interacted with and met. I know my life has significantly gotten healthier from doing kickball. So I appreciate that. Robbie, welcome to And That's a Pod combo. Hey, thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Of course, I definitely said, oh, I'm doing a five-episode arc on essentially queerness and gayness. You were the first person that I called.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Great. I am both queer and gay. That's so glad to be thought of.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Amazing, amazing. Uh, before we get into this episode fully, which is actually our episode that's called, and that's a very loud closet. Um, the P in Pride that it will stand for pretending over this series. I do just want to highlight a little bit of what happened this last week where I was promoting episode two. I just had someone jump onto one of my Facebook posts and said, Oh, is your second episode just gonna be nothing but straight hate? And I just found it a little comical because I said, Well, first and foremost, I didn't think it was gonna sting you the way that it seems to have stung you. So, okay. And their response was, Well, maybe if you just talked about more thought-provoking things, then you would gain my viewership. Um, to which I must say maybe my target audience isn't you, and that's okay. Because there are different pods for different bods, and you're just not um on my radar. So if you are if you have made it to episode three and the beginning of this series, thank you for still listening. If you are just joining, get ready because a lot of it can be a lot of smut every now and then, but we do actually talk about some some things that can be important. And so, um, but yeah, Robbie, how was this last week for you? What what's going on in in your life and world?

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Oh my god, what a week! Ending May. Uh, getting ready uh for Pride Month. This last week has been wild. It is Mae's wild ride, um, but we made it through. We're sliding into those summer months. I'm super excited. Cake ball went great, all the queer everything is happening, and it's a great way to kick off Pride Month.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Well, another great way to kick off Pride Month is let's talk about one of the most least prideful things that essentially every person in this community tends to go through, or a majority of us do, and that is hiding, right? So I want to know what do you think was your straightest phase?

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Oh God. Um, you know, Lordy Lou, I don't think that I ever had a straight phase. As much as I tried, as much as I tried, and Lord did I try, um I really thought that I was somehow hiding uh in my well-matched uh outfits that were all like monotone or not monotone, but like single color uh situation. And then uh all my scarves. I wore so many scarves. I thought when I went out to I grew up in Lincoln County, um green in Washington, highway to West of Spokane. And I really thought when we moved out there that like somehow being in 4-age, not even FFA, oh gosh and wearing my cowboy boots and doing the thing was somehow going to make me uh appear straight. And look, I'm no stranger to my voice, I'm no stranger to the things that I like. We are teaching when I look, I know, right? When I look back, I was always, we knew who she was. Um, but I was like really fighting hard against it. I remember uh like everybody else, like I don't think anybody else was really that shocked, except for maybe my girlfriend at the time. The infamous Maya Lacomb. I don't think that you'll listen to this, but if you do, um we'll talk to you soon.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

Thank you for being thank you for being a real one. Thank you for thank you. We we love a good beard every now and then.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

Man, she was there for me. Uh she was fantastic. And um, yeah, we dated uh through uh high school. I did some sports. I really did try to be uh quote quote straight, whatever that even means um in in today's world. Uh and when I think about like when's when was my straightest phase? I think the times I fought the hardest were like middle school when I was like really trying to like figure out what sports I could do, where I could like grow into myself, what I needed to change. Like maybe I'm just an edgy sort of straight kid. I just have to go goth a little bit. And I'm like looking back, I'm like going goth was your straight moment. Okay. What were you like the goth painted your nails goth? Were you um so I never so I uh I painted nails and then lots of dark colors. I was wanting to be like a Wednesday ad like and again, again, looking at the city.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Who you're referencing is Wednesday, not Pugsley, like exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

I know. Um, so yeah, and I tried. And it was really, you know, you know, the opposite of pride is shame. And it was really not even about like, you know, disliking myself or disliking the things that I like, but it was kind of this like, oh, there's something here that I need to hide. There's something here that I'm supposed to be ashamed of. Um, and trying to find the different avenues to like get away from that. Um, and it never changed anything, it never fixed anything. Um, and just made shit harder.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

So yeah, 100%. With that in mind, what do you think was your most like aggressively heterosexual behavior? Was it the play in sports? Was it like what I know I asked a friend this and they go, uh, I got married. I said, fair. Okay. But what do you think, especially during that time, middle school, high school, like, what was the what was the behavior or the trait that you said, I'm this is this I have to dial into because this is what's gonna prove to everyone, maybe even myself, that I am straight.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Yeah, you know what was crazy to me, and is still crazy to me to this day, um, is the way that like hypermasculinity shows up in sports and how incredibly gay it is. I tried all the sports. I like basketball was not for me at all. Wrestling um was okay, but it was it wasn't the right thing. It was okay for re different reasons.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

Um not even that. But a little bit. I didn't hate it, but I didn't love her.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

I didn't hate it, but um, and so I tried out all I tried out all the sports, and I uh that was really like part of this like, well, maybe if I can just be accepted, maybe if I can just find the the right group. And uh team sports were always really, really hard for me. Uh, because when you do team sports, you know, there's always you have to trust each other, you have to like rely on each other. And when I was doing basketball, when I was doing um baseball, it was this situation where like I never ever felt comfortable. And so I like thought to myself, like, oh, team sports aren't for me. So then I went into individual sports, so running, track, um, and then wrestling. But you kind of like you have to rely on yourself, you're still a part of this larger body. And it was on one hand, so amazing to I was so lucky to have like some community of some sorts, but it was also so weird to be participating and then like aggressively hiding something um the entire time. And I remember like the the craziest thing to me was again how incredibly gay uh straight guys are in locker rooms. Oh my gosh, absolutely. I was not here for it. I was like very anti-uh guys holding hands or guys like walking around like naked and playing gratass. And honestly, I missed out.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

No, no, a hundred percent. I I completely understand what you're saying because I did the basketball thing. I don't have enough hand-eyed coordination for basketball, but it doesn't it's uh crazy because I say that, but then I played tennis and I was actually good at tennis, um, but I guess I wasn't holding a ball in my hand, I was holding a racket. So take take that from the people like different things, yeah, right? Different strokes for different folks kind of thing. Um, but ultimately I played football. After practice, I was just more anxious about going into the locker room. And then like I remember I would go to my locker and I was just facing my locker. I was not looking to the side. I wasn't like because I was just so afraid that if someone thought I was staring at them, that they like would beat me up essentially. But then you see them slapping each other around, like they're whatever. When they're walking down the halls, like it's a joke for them to like hold hands. Whereas, like, if I were to genuinely do that, like I would be ostracized for for doing that. And so I completely get that juxtaposition of like you can do it because you're straight, but if I were to do this, I'm like dangerous, yeah, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

No, and I mean, um, not to give your uh one straight viewer too much uh credit, yeah, but you know, if I can just turn my attention to the friends, family, and folks at home. Um, if you are a straight man out there listening, um, this is not to say like to double down on not having that. Because I think so many part of the issue with hypermasculinity is like so many young men like don't have any avenues for that. And it was, I look back and like, oh, that's like totally healthy and normal behavior. But because there's so much that we're trying to hide as queer people, we don't get to engage in that even healthy behavior. And so sometimes that like weird, even though I am not a hyper masculine person at all, but that like fear that then turns itself into just like all these guys are being gay and all this other stuff, is like so crazy. Um, and I want to make sure that like I'm not adding to any hypermascular behavior, guys. In locker rooms, do what you're gonna do, don't do don't do that, but do the other things.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

No, I think it's like to your point, what we're saying definitely is more internal to us of like how we viewed the world because it's like just what we were presented or what we thought, but no, absolutely when you look past the uh ass grabbing and the hand holding and the like games of chicken where they were kissing each other. But when you look past all of that, it's uh still a true core sense of like they just have that camaraderie with each other, they're that close to each other. It's that trust and that build that they are building with each other. Whereas like I think when you're someone who's in the closet or hides or whatever have you, it's more there kind of even could be a small sense of like jealousy that I wish I could have that. But just because I wish I could have that doesn't mean I don't want you to have that. Like it's just creating spaces that are comfortable for people to be able to just be that comfortable with themselves.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Right. And then that's why we all need to like feel safe, like so we can all have that and it not be this weird um jealousy is a good word. My therapist talks a lot about like, well, that's a natural reaction for feeling like you're backed into a corner. And I'm like, oh yeah, like that lashing out uh that happens where you're like you're in the locker room and like things are happening, and you just like you feel like you're under attack, even though you're not, like no one's even paying attention to you sometimes. But then you lash out because you feel like you're backed in a corner and it is so aggressive and a we an interesting, not weird, an interesting manifestation of some of that shame that comes up out of like uh being a person in the closet.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

And I think that's the great, I love that you use the word shame, um, because it's true that shame is literally the opposite of pride in that sense. And that's why I think talking about this very real feeling and emotion that we tend to face. And not just uh uh gay men, women, uh, trans, like it's it's not just like everyone faces the idea of of shame at some point in their life. But I think it's just um I would say uh I experienced the feeling of shame at a very, very early age. Even with and what I think what made it harder was just like I don't know, I don't even know how to name what I'm shameful for, but I know something is uh different or off or not the norm. But yeah, so that's kind of my little tidbit. But speaking of locker rooms, LOL, um did anybody and you don't know name dropping here. We we we don't out people, we protect them. Did anyone ever come out from your high school experience and you were like, What?

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Um huh. Not necessarily that I well, you know, it was it's interesting. I went to uh I was in school with a very small school. My graduating class was like 75 people. It was like the largest at that time. And then like looking back, there I know, right? The next largest was like 35, I think, before us, but every class had at least one. Um, like even in this like small population size, every year had at least like one queer person in it. Every generation. There were people I know, right? Like every but then there were these people that like you found out or you heard about afterwards that it was like this, oh well, so and so did this with this other person. And there were like these things like, oh, that's interesting. Um, most of the people who came out, I don't think that I was too terribly surprised by, right? But some of the things that were like uh maybe more experimental, um, that I'm not sure if these people ever actually came out, some of those were some big life moments where I was like, oh, what's going on here? So uh go them. Uh fantastic. But it still surprises me. So when I was growing up, I thought this thing was like rare. I thought being gay was like it does not happen. It's one in a hundred people, or you know, what's like this tiny little uh sample size or tiny uh grouping of people. And then in this little sample size out at the uh where I grew up, I mean, there were still plenty of us. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

I think there was only one person who when they like and it was years, like maybe like I think we've graduated college at this point, and I just posted it on online, and I just was like I it like it's one of those where it's like I I did not see that coming, but now so many little puzzle pieces just fell into place. And you're just like, huh. Well, good for you. Like I every time I see that, it's not even like a anything other than okay, I'm glad you are because it's truly you're finally living a full version of who you want to be. And so I'm like, great, kudos to you. Man.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

So do you you had some that were a little surprising then?

SPEAKER_01 17:54

I had like there was one that was surprising, two that I was like I thought and then confirmed correct, and then um there was like one or two that I was like I knew you were gay because I'm also gay. Like I just picked it up a hundred percent. Where did you grow up? So I grew up in South Texas. I grew up in Laredo, Texas, two and a half hours south of San Antonio. I lived in a border town, and I lived the normal Hispanic growing up with religious mom, and um which was so funny because actually in our family, I think almost almost of like the second or of like my generation of kids or whatever, like there's one, there's one gay person in every family pod. Like when they like really did that like family tree, I said, wow. So that's like the colorful leaf on the tree and almost every pod. Like, yes, and um, it was either most of the time the firstborn or it's um the first and the middle child, like there's some where both of them, and then the youngest is left with nothing most of the time. But no, yeah, so um that was a very interesting experience, and so I know I listened to your um your TED talk um that you have, and Rob Robbie has a TED Talk.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

Um yeah, TEDx vocan, Robert Thompson.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

Yes, what what is it called again?

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Dragging yourself into something fabulous, yes, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

So I listened to it, and um I know you mentioned there was a moment of you being caught with either a classmate or whatever, and that's essentially your like, well, now we're we're out here, I guess. Did you find that there was still denial after that? Like you would like, no, this didn't happen. Like you didn't like, and what how like what do you classify as your true coming out story? Because I'll explain that question in a minute.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Yeah, I think like a lot of people, it was a slow walk of like, and I think sometimes as gay people, we do a huge disservice to people who are in the middle of the Kinsey scale. For those who don't know, educational moment, Kinsey scale being on one end super, super straight, on the other end, super, super uh homosexual, and then all the spaces in between of like bisexual, pansexual, all that. So and the education mooks, and they do exist. We are not for bi erasure. Yes, and part of that problem is me.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Yeah, and like and part of it is it doesn't exist. No, I'm just joking. No, no, we'll fix it in post.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

We'll fix it. Uh no, but I think like a lot of uh gay people where you're like trying to test the waters, right? And so you kind of like, no, I'm bi, or oh, I think that this person, so I was like 2080 for a while, and then like we got to the part of the I was like, oh no, I'm like 80-20, like 80 towards guys, like 20 towards women. I'm still on the scale. I'm not full uh like you know, like no, yeah, 100%. I think most people are somewhere on the scale, um, uh in the middle of the range. But uh I remember that being that slow walk of like, oh, well, I kind of like some guys and this, that, and the other. And it was actually, I was going to do running start. And so it was my senior year of high school, but I was also doing college classes. And there was this other kid who went to the same school as me uh who was also uh queer. So we were carrying on a uh a little tryst. Um, and then my girlfriend at the time, um, she was uh going to school and I was uh going to college with her sister. And so me and this guy uh were making out on the college hand. This uh one day, and my girlfriend at the time, her sister came around the corner and caught us, and that was like that was like the moment, right? And so it it ended up getting crazy. Look, I don't come from the most functional household, and so um it ended up being this whole like thing where then people were like, Oh, you're gay, you're gay, you're gay, just admit it. And I was like, I'm not gonna admit it. You don't know what's going on, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it ended up being just this series of like kind of dramatic moments that ended up like in this big fight with my brother, uh, where he was like, he was so frustrated. And looking back, I can tell that it's not even that he was mad about me being gay. Um, he was mad that I wasn't telling him what was going on. And it ended up just being this huge, huge fight. And I drug it out for all this time. And it had been like this slow walk where like I'd kind of like hinted at it with other people before. Um, and then finally it was like, no, I just have to tell people. And even after that, I mean, I had that experience in my senior year of high school, but even into my 20s when I would meet people, um, and even today, sometimes I still kind of like slow walk it. I don't always like come right out because sometimes there's a safety thing. Sometimes you want to know like how people feel, and it really sucks sometimes when I'm like it actually, oh god. Um, let's get into it.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Um trying to remember who I was talking to.

unknown 23:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

And that's a pod combo. And there, that's a pod combo. Um, I was what was I doing? Oh, I went to Seattle for work this last week. And uh Sun Hunzone in Seattle, uh, shout out to Dozone. Like, I freaking love that place. It's amazing. So I went out to Dozone. I didn't have the um yeah, it's like the Asian restaurant, but it's like the dim sum sort of like, yeah, yeah. And so good. It went so good. Amazing. Amazing. And so I didn't have anybody to go with, so I just like went with myself um and I ordered way too much food. And I ended up chatting with these folks next to me, this couple from Australia. And so they were here traveling for like three months. Um, and so I was talking to them and I was like, oh, and my spouse, because I don't use, I don't tend to use the word partner. Um, and just to kind of like test sometimes, I instead of saying my husband, which my husband's really good at, I'll say my spouse. And it very quickly turned into it's like, oh, well, tell your wife that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I didn't correct them. And I should have corrected them, but it's still like one of those things uh that it's like sometimes they don't, you don't know what to do. And so like we're having this conversation right now about like, oh, when was the moment that you came out? But you have to keep doing it as a queer person.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

Always having to come out, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Yeah. And it's like sometimes, like, oh, do I want to have this conversation? Do I want to make these people uncomfortable? How uncomfortable am I right now? Like, what's the thing that I'm gonna do? And I'm like, these are people from Australia that I'm never gonna see again in my entire life. We're just chatting over uh way too much food. And I probably don't need to tell them that I have a husband. But there's also a part of me that's like, yeah, but they should have picked up on like I mean, come on, they can do better.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

There's also like people know. People know, right? Like they they probably you said spouse, and they were like, you should have said partner, but short. Right. Tell your wife, wink, wink, like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

And or um, you know, uh oh god, I was drawing a blank. I was gonna say that one senator from down south who's like clearly gay but married to a woman. Um, Lindsay Graham, there we go. Yes. I mean, look, uh, there's plenty of people who are going through their own journey as well, and I do respect them for being like, you know what? This queerly gay uh individual uh who told us their spouse, um, you know, maybe they are married to a woman. So I guess go them for not assuming. Well, no, backtrack, they did assume, but we're all using the tools that are available to us. That's true.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

Um no, I mean that's I think that's a great point of saying, like, you know, we do we ever stop coming out of the closet? And I think um to your point, it is the in what spaces are we safe in to be who we are. So um, and I kind of want to say, like, I don't think it's that we ever go back into the closet, but we do recognize a safety in at times knowing when to kind of step back and knowing when to when to. But if innately inside you are proud of who you are, you're just trying to be safe, then you're you're you're good. Like you're not it's not because I think when we were growing up to be in the closet originally was out of the fear of being who you are. And now it's actually sometimes we use the closet as a to protect who we currently are every now and then. And so to your point, like why, why am I going to make them uncomfortable or make the situation uncomfortable or put me in danger? That's fine. I don't we don't need to talk about that. Some instances someone can say, Oh, you're not being proud of who you are. Well, no, it's I am so proud of who I am that I know when to protect myself as well. Because I get what you're saying. There's times where I just don't correct people either, but I am also shocked that they don't know. Yeah. Yeah. So that's that's that's neither here nor there.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

I like that lens shift though, of like, you know, there's the part of not knowing who you are and being scared of that is almost what I'm hearing. And then like knowing who you are and knowing that this isn't the fight that I need to have right now. Um or that's letting down. Yeah. And it's it's gonna change, you know. With that's that's part of the reason that you know, why we need pride is um to maximize those number of safe spaces where we don't have to continually come out, where it's just like a conversation um where I don't feel like I need to say spouse, or you know, that the language catches up to the to the social situation. Um, and also that shift of like, you know, I don't know, maybe there's a moment to pause there and be like, is this even stepping back in the closet or is it something else? Um like I don't think that it's going into the closet when like I withhold information about any other part of my life. Um, but because of this one thing, which is really huge, uh, is core to most to a lot of our identities. Um, but like is it just privacy and just saying, you know, that's not the conversation I need to have right now? Or is it is it hiding? And like what's the what's the balance?

SPEAKER_01 29:06

Much like you said in your TED in like the TED talk of like essentially we all we all wear drag, right? And per we all, you know. Yeah. What what was it? We're all born naked and the rest is drag.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

That's the quote, yeah. Uh you're born making the rest is drag, and everything we do every day.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

And I would say that like maybe this instance where you choose to not share or share is like, maybe I'm this is if we're gonna put an analogy to it, like this isn't the shirt that I'm gonna wear today. It's I will pull it out in certain situations, but this isn't that time to wear that shirt. And it's not that I'm ashamed of it, it's just I don't want this shirt to get ruined or dirty or whatever have you. And so it's a protect protecting it, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it it's all it's all performance, right? You know, it's a little bit of like know your audience. I like that analogy with the shirt, kind of fitting real nicely into that closet analogy. I've never heard it said like that. So yeah, uh, but yeah, you know, it's all what we choose to present in the moment. I can do that. You're good at this. No, oh my gosh, you should start a podcast.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

I know, I don't I'm still trying. But um, now that you mentioned though the performance, right? Like we're kind of it seems like, you know, and it's true, I think everyone, whether you were LGBTQ, queer, whatever the case may be, straight. We all are performing in a certain way. Um, but in this space, what was the moment that you realized you were performing? Like at what age or what was your early like when you actually came to terms, like, oh my god, I am putting on a show, essentially.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Yeah. Um I naturally am a performer in general. I'm a Scorpio, we're private people. Um, and so like uh I'm also a very public person. And so, like, I think with a lot of people, I just want to put this all of us are going through our day putting on different performances left and right. And I think sometimes it's so hard to separate that from like, what is how much of this is me putting on a thing for other people, and how much of this is me doing doing me, right? And so what I was saying at the beginning, where I was like looking back, I'm like, oh man, that kid was gay. Um there's so many things that were like experimental and like just a normal process of just growing up and being a kid. Um, and there's also pieces of that that were highly performative um in trying to uh hide something or or or try to be something else. And so that's that's really difficult to kind of like suss out and break down. Um, I think my, you know, like a lot of queer people, like that middle school age where you start to like get those flood of uh uh hormones and your body is like catching up to you and like your mind is like going. Well, emphasis on the moan. Um no, not that today, not 13-year-old Robbie. Okay, but I yeah, I um I remember, and it was so confusing because like I I I remember having crushes on girls, and I remember thinking about or like at least feeling like I was supposed to think about uh girls in a certain way. Even like looking back at like middle school me and being like, oh, did you did you how much of you actually had a crush on this person? And how much of you like felt like you were supposed to have a crush on this person and you were like internalizing that? Um, and I I think about that not a small amount of times, you know, that that like, oh, like where where is this space?

SPEAKER_01 33:08

So um not to cut you off, but was it was it a crush, or did we maybe sometimes confuse admiration or like like a wanting to be like somebody? Because I know when I was growing up, originally when I was like, am I, am I not? It was like you would see the the men on TV or like whatever have you, and a part of me was like, Do I want to look like them or do I want to be with them?

SPEAKER_00 33:41

And then it turned out that both like but yeah, yeah, no, yeah, but uh men want to be him, women want to be with him, that kind of like thing of like, where do you separate the line of like I like that that that lens of like admiration and that turning into something that feels like a crush um versus like what it actually was. Um, and I don't know. I mean, like being 13 is uh tough. And so if I could go back in time and be like, hey, dude, what's going on? I I probably would. I'd be like, let's go on this journey together. You need a like somebody to help. Um, but we figured it out ourselves up to this point. And uh really good lens.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

We're still figuring things out. Everything it never stops. And we've if if you stop learning or growing or figuring things out, then you're dead. Like there's just nothing like that, like life is literally just about doing that day in and day out with every decision that you made. Um but um I'm curious because you mentioned earlier how you started to recognize that your brother it was less than being upset that you were gay and more that I think what like there was a lack of trust there, and it's like, but I'm your brother, like you didn't trust me. So was there anyone during that time that got the real Robbie? Did you even have the real Robbie?

SPEAKER_00 35:19

Like uh we're getting into the deep shit here. Um I and no, I don't don't if you don't like it, throw it out. We don't have to talk about it. But like I love it. This is why this is why I go to therapy. Uh, real quick shout out. Everyone should be in therapy all the time for every reason. I'm stealing that from a different uh somebody else's quote. But like it is it is important to examine yourself. Um and also uh for testicular cancer, shout out to men's help. Um like uh examine yourself, folks. Um gosh, I I don't think, especially when I was young, I think that's kind of like one of the big um grieving points for a lot of people, or at least a grieving point for me, is like, you know, when I think back to um like that child and all of us, there is so much of me now as an adult that has a need to be seen, heard, and understood. And I think that there's so much of me as a kid that never felt seen, heard, or understood. Right. Like, and you know, when we get into this conversation about like performance and like we're always performing and we're always putting on these different things, and what's the difference between what I'm putting on and who I am? Um, and that is that is a lot to unpack. And I would never claim to be an expert in it. It's a journey that I am still going through. Um, and I it's it is really sad uh to think that there are, you know, not just kids, uh, also adults. I know a lot of um, I lead a uh queer running group here in Spokane as well. We have a lot of older men in the group who um have been married and come out later in life. And I am so thankful that I came out in, you know, when I was 18, 20 years old, that I didn't, you know, have to wait till I was 50 to begin feeling seen, heard, or understood, even if not fully, but just to begin that understanding of like stepping into myself. Um, and I think it's like most people are having to go to that journey still. Um, and um it's again hard when you're I I wonder how many people in their youth feel like they're fully, you know, mom, you'll never understand. It's not so that journey of like feeling fully yourself. Uh, can I bounce that back to you? I'm really curious about like your experience of feeling um seen in that way.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Um I too go to therapy, and I think everyone should go to therapy. And I I've done a lot of um younger self-child work. And I would say I would agree, like I don't think I even showed up for myself and knew who I was, and no one and to a certain extent, like uh me and my mom had a very good relationship growing up. It was just us two for a lot of the time, and then um my dad comes in to the picture, sisters, whatever have you. But um, once I got to that middle school, high school age, it's funny because my mom would think that I was like in the shower doing what most men or young boys do in the shower, and that's why they're taking so long. And it's like, no, like a lot of those times, it was like I genuinely was like praying to not be gay. Like, why, why, if this is this sin or whatever have you, why did you then allow me to feel these feelings or be this way or whatever have you? And it was just uh um, and I I don't even blame my mom. I don't blame like the people in my life. I think it's just now there are some people out there who are just awful people and they definitely don't even attempt to create a safe space for you at all, and that's just what it is. But I just don't think that in most cases in in most families, uh they just parents don't know always, like I don't know what to do with this, I don't know how to help you with this, I don't know, like I just don't know. And um so I definitely did a lot of hiding. I don't feel like as much as I wanted someone to get me, I don't think anyone really understood me. Um, and I did not surround myself with people who would understand me until I went to college. I I was outed um by a family member um out of spite, not out of like anything other than whatever but spite. I come home, mom's crying on the couch, and she says, like, is it true that you're gay? And my just initial reaction was, I'm not talking about this. And I just I never confirmed or denied it. I just we're not talking about this. And it was it wasn't until I was in college, and that was I was a sophomore in high school, and I was in college and I got heartbroken by this one guy. And little did I know that that heartbreak would follow me every at every point in my life, but I got heartbroken and I was calling my mom and she's like, What's wrong? Because we just have a good, like weird sixth sense with each other. Um, and I was like, No, everything's fine. And she's like, she was like, No, something's wrong. And I just remember crying, and it's the first time that I talked to my mom about a boy or whatever. She drove two and a half hours to come essentially comfort me from that moment on. That tumultuous relationship we had over the last like few years, like just started mending. Um, and that was I think the first time that I really saw my mom show up for me and like me, like she'd done it multiple times, but in this space, it was like she was there. Like, and so yeah, it was definitely a uh an interesting time during that period.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

Tell me, I want to I want to poll on that, like where she asked you and you were like, I'm not talking about this, and then this time later being like mom, here's everything that's going on. Yeah, and I think that there's like this theme sometimes of maybe it's not as unsafe as it feels, and then like not being able to accept taking the risk. And so like looking back, I'm curious if like you feel like like your risk assessment was off, or if like how did that how did that show up for you? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 42:04

I think it's part of it is the world that we live in. So having grown up religious, having grown up like going to church, like my mom is like, and hearing people in our family be like, this is a sin and this is not, and this is like whatever have you. You do essentially draw from those experiences of like if someone were to find out this would not be good. Um, I think also the um I tell her now, and I'm like, the dramatics, mom, you were sitting on the couch waiting for me to come home from school, like like that wasn't a, I think, maybe the best way to you're crying. Like, you know, and I think a lot of it came from I did have such a respect for my mom. And to see that like me being who I was was bringing her this much turmoil. It's just uh it would be easier to avoid this because I also grew up thinking that I just I was the problem in like the marriage or the problem in like whatever. So I just had this innate uh ability to just blame myself for everything. So it's like I just don't want to do this, and I don't want to add to this, and this is just gonna be another stressor. And I also think that when you're presented in that sense and you're not ready to fully come out yet, um, there's still shame in like, and if I say yes to this, then now it's it's true. All the shame that I have felt, all of it, it's I'm actually saying it out loud. This is true. And it did not matter that uh friends at school like knew or whatever, because although yes, I want friends and their opinion matters to a certain extent, it doesn't hold as much weight as like your family finally either accepting or Or rejecting you. And it's like when you say yes, you are, you're now opening the door to either be accepted or rejected.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

Yeah. That I guess the word is vulnerability. Yeah. Right? Yeah. It's that really raw and exposing feeling of like, even when you're like, yeah, this is going to be fine. And I still like it's so funny the way that this manifests sometimes. Where sometimes somebody will ask me like a point blank question, and I'll answer just out of like fear or like not wanting to be vulnerable. And then I'll sit there and I'll just be like, ask me again because I want to tell you the real answer. But like now I can't because I told you the wrong answer because I was scared. And I think that that showed up a lot, like when I was younger. And part of why it was good that my coming out was a little bit explosive. Because I think that like if it hadn't come out in that way, that I would have carried it on longer than I needed to. People asked me in early high school, in middle school, hey, are you are you into guys? And I was like, no, like this is explosive. And I remember there's one uh guy who was um he's like on the football team, and he was actually really nice about it. Uh he was uh dating a girl that I was friends with at the time, and he was like, we was like after school, we were like sitting in the pit at school, and um he was like, Hey, if this is a thing, like it's fine. I think people are just kind of curious. And I was like, no, no, it's not, like it's fine. But there was that honey part of me that's just like, is can I can I say this? Is it okay? Um I don't know if you ever did standardized testing. Oh, yes. Um, like, yeah. And there's like this, all the time fantastic. Uh there was like this demographic survey at the end too, and it was like about safety. And I remember uh taking this test like in late high school, and there was like, do you feel um safe at school? It was like two different questions. I think one was like, Do you have a fear of being bullied? And like, do you feel safe? And I like answered them very differently, where it's like, oh, I don't really feel safe, but I'm also not worried about being bullied. Yeah. Um, and it was like this sort of like I'd carved my little safe zone out of like sports and like my friends, and like no, like that was okay, but then it was also like, but I don't feel like like I can I can share and like do my whole thing either. And so like holding that duality of like even when things are quote quote safe, that's not the same thing always as like yeah, being able to accept that emotional safety. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

Uh no, that's a hundred a hundred percent true, and those are two very different questions. And what do you think people need to understand more about closeted like people in the closet? Because I think it's like even in our community, it's very easy once you've gotten up to a like you're proud who you are, whatever have you. It's kind of like you're trying to sometimes like force a space that's that is comfortable so people can come out. And then if but it truly is if that person isn't ready, then it's not there's no amount of like you can do all you can, but you shouldn't force them to come out. And then much like I think I I think like I'm actually curious, and maybe I need to ask some of my straight friends, what do you think of like the idea of being in the closet? Like, but what do you wish people knew more of or understood more about being someone who was closeted at one point?

SPEAKER_00 47:51

Yeah, I think in the same way that you know, most of us are putting on different levels of performance about our life. Most of us are putting on different personalities and different spaces. Um the closet is not specific to queer, trans gay people either. Uh straight men who are putting on some of this hyper-masculine performance, they're still in a closet. They may not be gay. That is not, and I think I think a lot of people will hear that and they're like, I'm not gay. I'm not like that's not like you're still No, you just are a straight man that loves musical theater. And that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:31

They exist.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Yeah, it's okay to like all musical theater except for Hamilton.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

Um whoa, hot takes. We have some hot takes. Okay. What take uh here's a take.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

No, like so. A lot of us are, you know, we're carrying different things, we're hiding different things. We're, you know, especially in today's world, I think that a lot of people um who are even straight are like putting on performance of like what's the right way to be straight? What's the right way to be masculine? What's the right way to be feminine? What's like, and it's all scales, right? There's the Kinsey scale, there's these gender norms, there's like all this, and there's so much room to play with that, and so few of us get the opportunity to do that. And I think this kind of recognition that we all have parts of ourselves that we're ashamed of, that maybe we're hiding, um, it's not specific to queer people, and we need to be able to break those things down for everyone, right? So it's not about just making it so that queer people can come out, it's about making it so that straight people can experience and experiment with all parts of their identity.

SPEAKER_01 49:49

That's you hear that, my one straight viewer that had a problem. We we're not hating on the straights. We're saying you deserve a space too.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

Yeah, you deserve to be able to experiment now. Granted, don't come out here with your hatred.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

Yeah, either, right?

SPEAKER_00 50:09

It's about everybody having having that room to to to live into their fullest self. And look, it's not a light switch. It's not like one day you wake up, like we're all still experimenting.

SPEAKER_01 50:23

It's actually like a light dimmer.

SPEAKER_00 50:25

It's yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:26

Today I'm feeling a little more, and then you know what? And whatever have you. But I actually, it's funny that you say that because over the last few years, I have I've just been, I think, more as I have healed more, shout out to therapy. I have opened my mind more to also like some of these ideas and these concepts, and not not even being so rigid in in the gay community either. Like, I've just been, oh, like I it used to be like I want to meet someone and find someone and settle down and have kids and whatever. And it's like, yeah, that can happen too, and I'm open to that. But it's also just I don't want to put pressure on my life, I don't want to put pressure on anyone else. I'm just trying to live my life to the fullest. And I've even said that I think the world would be happier if everyone, if they really wanted to experiment or try something or whatever, if there wasn't the fear of backlash or the fear of judgment or whatever have you, we would just literally be a happier world where people are like, hey, I I gave it a shot. Like I thought maybe I had feelings for same-sex person. Not the case, and that's okay. Like I respect them. Like I but you know, I gave myself the opportunity to to say, nope, that's not for me, or you find, oh, I do enjoy this. Like, and that's there's nothing wrong with that either. I just feel if more people were fluid in that thought processes, like we would just not have as much judgment or hatred for self or others. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 52:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:09

No, absolutely. And I think that that's like even what you were saying with your mom of like, you know, well, when I say this, it's gonna become real. And it's like having the space to be able to say something or to be able to say, hey, this is the thing that I'm thinking about, and it not being so rigid, which I still think it is for a lot of people. Um, and that's in sexuality, that's in gender, that's in so many other spaces. Um, we didn't say uh pronouns at the top of the at the top of the thing. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:37

We could literally just pro we could just pause right here and then we'll just say he him, and I'll just edit it into the the beginning. Like that's the that's the magic of a pod. But I also if you've listened to the first two, I say I'll edit something out and then I just leave it in there. But you're right.

SPEAKER_00 52:58

We can we can leave this in here, we can leave this as a learning moment. Yeah. Um yeah. Um Robbie, what are your pronouns? Any pronouns, any and unspecified. Okay. Um, and I think the reason that like I've turned to like that is like this idea of like I want to have room to experiment. And I want other people to have room to experiment. And I don't want to like, you know, I painted my uh nails a couple years ago for an event and had my little leave pink and blue, and somebody was like, somebody said, if you're trans, you need to tell me. And I was like, Whoa, first off, I don't owe you anything. Two, it's like, let me let me experiment. Like, don't put pressure on things. Like, I can like pink and blue, like, yeah. Like, let us all do our thing. And like, all of us deserve that. Queer people, shape people, like room to experiment. And the less pressure we put on it, the more the rest of us are just saying, yeah, go for it. Um I think the easier it gets for people to come, quote, out of the closet, or at least feel free to like throw the closet door open and be like, hey, see this thing that I'm trying on today. Um and like giving that that space and that grace to each other.

SPEAKER_01 54:13

So uh what's something that you're currently proud of that a younger Robbie would have never thought possible?

SPEAKER_00 54:27

Hmm. Something I'm currently proud of that a younger Robbie would never have thought possible. Oh God, you know, we were talking earlier. Sorry, I don't mean to get deep, but like No, it's good. It's good. I like it. Um We were talking earlier about like, hey, is it did you let people did anybody get the full Robbie um when I was younger? And I don't think that they did. And I still think that there's like layers to this that um I'm continuing to like unpack in adulthood. But that's a special thing.

SPEAKER_01 55:02

That's not a that's a story. That's a story.

SPEAKER_00 55:12

But like, you know, we've got this dodgeball and kickball group. We have this uh this running group, you know, I'm married to an amazing person. I've got a fantastic dog. I am surrounded by amazing people. And there are times when the same feeling of like, you know, is it safe? Can I share with people? Can we, you know, and what does authenticity look like? And to be surrounded by amazing people and to be able to, in those moments of doubt, to be like, no, like we're safe. I'm surrounded by amazing people. They love me for me. And the more that I continue to be me, the more that they're going to love. And me 15, 20 years ago, never uh, I think would have would have accepted that. And um, you know, being surrounded by this wonderful community, helping to cultivate it, helping to build space for other people to kind of grow into it, um, is really amazing. And I think that a younger Robbie would look at that and be like, there's no way that's us. And I'm proud of myself now. And I think uh a younger me would be very, very proud of me as well.

SPEAKER_01 56:26

That's awesome. Let's try to not have such a deep moment for these last few minutes. Let's make it a little bit more like Spitfire. Actually, the next question is probably gonna be a little bit uh deep as well. Who knows? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 56:44

Well, let's go.

SPEAKER_01 56:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's see, what is a piece of advice that would have absolutely offended younger you, but is super true now?

SPEAKER_00 56:56

Oh my gosh. In the same vein, I think uh uh a piece of advice would have been like, hey, people love you for you. I think I would have panicked.

SPEAKER_01 57:04

You would have been like, what do you mean? Me, who? Who, me? Who me? What do you know? Who's talking? Like who's talking? Yeah. What TV character should have told you immediately that you were you were gay or different or queer? Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 57:24

Ooh, yeah. Uh uh the oh my god, I'm drawing a blank on her name, but like the bad guy from uh Kim Possible, the green and the black. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 57:35

Yes, actually, I think there's act, if I'm not mistaken, someone has seen a correlation between Shigo being your favorite character and you being either bisexual or queer.

SPEAKER_00 57:46

Absolutely. That's the awakening. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:49

Were you subtle when you look back at it?

SPEAKER_00 57:53

No, I was not subtle. I really thought I was doing something, and I was well, I was doing something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:02

Oh gosh. And then what was your gayest straight friendship?

SPEAKER_00 58:07

Ooh, my gayest straight friendship? Yikes. Uh I was uh the only boy in in choir for it was like me and like, oh no, this is my gayest straight friendship. Uh, there was this guy that I had a huge crush on, and we uh he had to have known that I had this huge crush on him. And uh we uh were both uh into music and I like wanted so bad. I'm like, oh, we should like do a song together, we should like we should like because he was a magician uh a musician and like I wasn't when I was like whole like crusher on a house so and it was uh looking back totally adorable, but like we were friends, and I was just like this guy had to have known that I was just like crushing on him, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:51

Wow, that sounds like a glee episode waiting to happen.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

Very yeah, this is pre-glee. This is this is an original experience. Glee can't take it from me.

SPEAKER_01 58:59

That's true, that's true. I think if if that was I think that would have what glee came out glee came out when it was eight and seven, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um if a jury reviewed the evidence, how quickly would they have convicted you?

SPEAKER_00 59:20

Of being gay, yeah, gay. Oh, so fast. Are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_01 59:25

Did we even have to have a trial?

SPEAKER_00 59:27

I would have walked into the courtroom and they've been like deliberation complete.

SPEAKER_01 59:31

Yeah, guilty, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:34

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 59:36

Okay, super cool. Um couple last questions. What is one thing that the closet taught you that you're actually grateful for?

SPEAKER_00 59:49

Yeah, I think one thing that the closet taught me is like, again, it's all costume, you know, going back into the closet and out of the closet all the time every day. Um and if it's all costume, then so much of it doesn't actually matter. So much of it is just like it only matters because other people say that it matters and because I believe that it matters. And I get to I get to try as hard as I can to put some of those beliefs aside and just like pick out what feels right for me in the moment. Um and that's the great thing about having a big closet.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:26

Yeah. There you go. If younger you saw your dating history, what would surprise them the most?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:37

Um, I think if Jeremy saw my dating history, they would be surprised at uh the longevity of some of my relationships. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:46

And I have the opposite effect. I can't get past like three months. Like so yeah. I think it's too long with the wrong people. There we go. Yeah. I and so it's funny that you say that because I had told one of my friends it was I was in a relationship with someone, and absolutely it was, I think, two months longer than it needed to be, and really it was three months long. So take that for what you will. But um I was like, I'm not upset that this is over. Like, like I'm not upset that this is over. I know that we weren't right for each other. Like I I'm more actually sad and upset that I have to start dating again. Like, ugh, like I don't want to go through that. I have always had this idea that like I'm cursed because I can't really get past three months with someone. And it's like, you know, and my friend goes, you know, have you ever, instead of viewing that as a curse, thought of it from the other side of it, only takes you three months to realize this isn't the one? I didn't need you to read me like that. And they're like, Well, no, like think about it. One version of it is you're the victim or you're whatever. But if you realize that they're not the right one and you're ending it, aren't you putting yourself first? Isn't that like the most you value yourself so much that you're not going to do this? And I was just like, Oh. All right, let's go to the bar. You're right. Yeah, let's go. Wrap it up. You're good. Yeah. Actually, that was I uh invoice me, the therapy session. I got you. I I got you. No, yeah, 100%. Two last questions for you. Okay. I know we're going a little over, but what is something that younger you needed to hear?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:44

What younger me needed to hear and what younger me needed to feel are two different things. And um, or maybe they're the same thing, but they're two different lenses. But younger me just needed to know that it was safe, um, and that people would would be there for me. Um, that I wasn't gonna be abandoned. And I think that a lot of queer people were worried about coming out and everybody else is gonna leave. And uh I needed to feel that.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:11

I needed someone to just be like, You're good, it will be good, but also to be very real of like there will be moments that aren't good, but that's not that's not you. Yeah, like you lift weights, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:32

I was never a weightlifter.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:34

No, just already.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:35

Yeah, look at that.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:39

I tell myself now, it's just like any other exercise. It's just like it's it's just like any, you know, like it's gonna be hard. It's gonna hurt. It's gonna hurt a lot. And you're gonna grow. You're you're gonna get like stronger as you know, and so I used to have there used to be that it gets better campaign. Uh yeah. It never got better.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:01

No, just joking. Like I was like, did it not? Like, did it? Did it did the campaign end because like it got better, or like did we just scrape because I I think I think we still got some work to do for we got some work to do.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:15

Yeah, but but sometimes better feels worse. Sometimes better hurts, sometimes stronger hurts.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:20

Yeah, and uh yeah. But it's because I would say it's because you're finally addressing some of the things that should have been addressed, or you should have tackled, or you should have opened yourself or allowed yourself to feel. And I get when we don't do that, it's like we're not ready, there's a fear behind it. But um the I I agree, I think the path to getting better or to like I don't even like to say that, like in that, but it's the path to healing is that vulnerability and that willingness to to to hurt sometimes because sometimes you have to like dig into it. Final question, Robbie.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:06

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:07

What does pride mean to you today?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:11

I think pride means to me uh today, uh just not hiding. Just you know, I don't have to have all the answers, I don't have to know exactly who I am all the time, but I showing up, doing the best you can for yourself in the moment. Uh, and again, that same idea of the opposite of pride being shame. Um trying to move beyond that, you know. I don't have there's nothing here that I have to hide. Well, what about you? I'm not gonna let you get away too early.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:44

I was about to I was about to just get right into it. Oh, you're about to dip. Oh, well, I am going to actually keep that question to myself until episode five, because that is the same question I'm gonna end with all throughout because I I'm curious as to see everyone's um responses and I don't think the listeners would be like okay that's the same shit you said last time that's great no you can you can edit it this that last bit out then no I think it's good to leave it in because I definitely uh appreciate that question and I will answer that question because I have my own um answer to that but Rob Robbie thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy schedule um and actually like being willing to like dive in because I know um just this just this topic of kind of taking yourself back um to a moment that might not have been the best moment um not that everything was bad I'm sure there was things sprinkled in that were like fantastic but still at its core I think for a lot of LGBTQ folks even straight folks if we as we've talked about when if you've ever felt shame about something that you really should be proud about um it's a different level of hurt and a different level of pain and to revisit that is not always easy and I appreciate you being willing to open up be vulnerable as a Scorpio especially my goodness you've you've been doing some work I've been I'm an Aries so I just share everything like it just that's who I am but um no thank you thank you again do you have any final words or final questions or no thank you for inviting me and for letting me uh letting me be vulnerable in this space and creating uh creating a space to share um I really appreciate having the chance to talk about all this and yes and so for a reflection point yes absolutely and I and you know what sometimes we have to go back to the the bad moments to appreciate where we are now I actually gave this example earlier of like an inside out of you've not seen it Disney's Inside Out I think is a fantastic film that really knows how to explain emotions especially to children um but even some adults um but where joy is just really trying to push like to be happy or whatever have you and at the end realizes that truly without sadness there cannot even just be an appreciation for joy like you can feel joy but you can also appreciate happier moments more when the heart does happen. So I again appreciate you doing this for my listeners once again this is episode one of a five part series that we are doing P-R-I-D-E pride each one we will tackle a pivotal moment in I truly believe most LGBTQ people's lives and for my straight viewer who wants my to really wants to listen but doesn't want to hear the straight hate there is even pride for you guys as well and we we we think you guys deserve a space as well um once again if you are not subscribed to our Patreon you can are really getting only half the story because we make funny remarks or we do funny faces or whatever have you so that's part of the story. Follow us on Instagram at that's a podconvo um other than that I will be starting TikTok soon I will be starting TikTok soon for and that's a pod convo I'm just really bad at TikToking but we'll figure it out and other than that catch us on for episode two next week of and that's not just a phase and how many times have we said that I don't know but thank you so much it's not a phase oh my gosh mom yeah I've said that a time or two but other than that bye everyone Robbie bye thank you again