Shrinks on Screen

Most TV therapists are straight out of a caricature — stoic, boundary-violating, and often wildly unrelatable. But what if iconic portrayals actually missed the mark on what real therapy looks like? And are we starting to see a shift toward more authentic, nuanced depictions?

In this provocative conversation, Chelsea and Heather dissect our favorite therapist portrayals on screen — from Tony Soprano’s emotionally distant Dr. Melfi’s boundary mishaps, and the complex, deeply human Dr. Brooke Taylor in HBO's In Treatment. They explore what makes these characters compelling (or cringe-worthy), and reveal the invisible lines that therapists draw to protect both themselves and their clients.

You’ll discover:

• Why Tony Soprano’s therapist is the worst example and what real therapists do differently
• How In Treatment offers a more authentic peek behind the therapy room door, showing both vulnerability and professionalism
• The importance of boundaries in therapy — and how they often live in the gray area, not just black and white
• Surprising insights from popular shows like Wanderlust and Lucifer that challenge our assumptions about therapy's role
• How Hollywood’s portrayals shape public perception — and why it matters for therapists and clients alike

This episode is essential listening for anyone curious about mental health in media, aspiring therapists, or anyone who’s ever wondered what therapy really looks like. As the field evolves and boundaries blur, these conversations help us understand how therapists can stay human, ethical, and deeply effective at the same time.

Whether you're a therapist craving authentic representation or a TV lover who’s tired of stereotypes, this discussion will leave you thinking twice about what you see on screen—and what’s truly possible in the therapy space.

Join us as we turn the spotlight on the good, the bad, and the hilariously inaccurate portrayals — and explore how TV’s therapists might just reflect the future of mental health care.

Transcript

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I feel like a lot of it gives the wrong sense of what therapy actually is. And a lot of it's such like caricatures of what we actually are. But when I was looking at this topic and sort of thinking, like, sort of Googling different shows I forgot about, you know, that had a therapy session or or a therapist scene. Um, it's interesting to see public opinion. And I don't know what other people's credentials are, but like what I thought was like fantastically portrayed, other people were like, oh, that's terrible. And what I think is like really bad, everybody thinks is like super funny. Welcome to the Clinical Tea Podcast, your monthly cup of news, pop culture, and mental health through a clinical lens. With your hosts, Chelsea McCarty and Heather McPall, licensed professional counselors. Grab your mug and settle in. It's time for the tea. Hey Heather. Hello. Welcome to our second session. Second. Exciting. Very exciting. Um, it was very exciting to watch and hear feedback from everybody. And I I mean, what did you think, Heather? I loved it. I mean, I I think it went really well. I think it sparked a lot of interesting conversation. Um everybody was super hyped about it, which you know makes us want to keep going. So I I I thought it was great. Yeah. Yeah, same. This is just such a fun project. So thanks for taking me on this journey. Yeah. Thanks for coming. Yeah. So today's topic I'm excited about. Um, Heather came up with this one, and it is us dissecting um therapist portrayal in TV. So there are a couple uh shows out there that are based around therapists and the life of a therapist, and Heather and I have some thoughts. I have a whole list of thoughts. Yeah. Well, let's start with the overarching like theme historically, that therapists have been uh portrayed as incompetent, unethical, and boundary violating all over the place in TV and movies. And while some of that isn't far off from reality, like people do fucked up things all the time as therapists, I feel like a lot of it gives the wrong sense of what therapy actually is. And a lot of it's such like caricatures of what we actually are. And it gets under my skin. But when I was looking at this topic and sort of thinking like sort of Googling different shows I forgot about, you know, that had a therapy session or or a therapist scene, um, it's interesting to see public opinion, and I don't know what other people's credentials are, but like what I thought was like fantastically portrayed, other people were like, oh, that's terrible. And what I think is like really bad, everybody thinks is like super funny. So it's really interesting. Um, and so I wanted to bring this to you to get your take on stuff too, because um I think it's changing for the better. I think it's getting better. Yeah. Um, but I kind of wanted to go through like maybe some of your favorite shows or you know, favorite scenes, or but let's start with like the really bad shit first. Um what do you think is like the really bad shit? Because I have one that I'm thinking of. Yeah, you go first. Okay, I guess there's gonna be spoilers on this. So sorry, folks, if you uh haven't seen these shows yet. Um so when I think about therapists in TV, movie, etc., um, I can think of a really wonderful example and a totally terrible example. So my totally terrible example is Tony Sopranos Dr. Melfi. Yes. So, you know what's interesting about that is like on the internet, she is praised as the the quintessential. Like, she is like everybody's the good, she's the golden child of TV therapists. And I'm like, oh, so tell me why you think she's a terrible example. Absolutely. Like, I got a lot of thoughts on this one. So aside from the fact, and again, spoilers in this, aside from the effect the fact that her and Tony get into a relationship together, her, I call it a way of being. So, like a therapist way of being is just like your way of showing up, right? It's like take the training out of it, it's just how you show up as a person and how you show up in the room. She is so freaking stoic. And I just think that's not real. Yeah. And so, like, context, right? The Sopranos was what late 90s, early 2000s, right? So I don't know about you, Heather, but way before I had an idea that I wanted to be a therapist. So when I was learning about becoming a therapist and like this idea of way of being, like, she flashed in my mind, and I was like, oh, this was my first example of this. Like, I think that she lacks like that human part of it that I think you and I have talked about several times. And I know all therapists are, you know, how we show up is like on a spectrum, but I think you and I both show up very real as ourselves and kind of honor that and think that there's a space for that. And I just think like if I were sitting in front of her, I would be so intimidated by her. Like she's just and I think some of that comes from the flavor of therapy that she does. I think if I'm not, I might be wrong, but I think she's psychoanalytic, and so there is this sort of very boundaried very although that flies out the window with her. But she is very uptight, very uptight. Um and yes, I agree, that's not my style. The problem I have with her is that, and that's not even it. The problem I have with her is first of all, she there's so many boundary violations here, right? Like her family figures out who her her th her client is. No. Um and then I wouldn't say they had a relationship. I think Tony, spoiler alert, uh, tries to, there's some transference that happens, right? And so he tries to kiss her. She puts that out of the way, but then she like she gets over involved. And the other thing is she gets too like, ooh, in his like, she wants to know all the thingies in there. Like, she's very fascinated by mob life, and I don't know that all of us wouldn't be, but like Yeah, I don't blame her for that, but there is certainly like uh a boundary there. Yeah, she gets over involved, she allows him to do things like have her car fixed, and she doesn't stop seeing him. Like that would have been it for me. Although I also get that there she might have been intimidated to stop treatment with him because of who he was. So it's complicated, but I don't think that she's a great example. But people on the internet think like she's just the she's the shit. Yeah. It's weird. Well, and think of the time too, like therapy was not how do I want to say this? So I think common is yeah, yeah, where we are today, people are more um open to the idea of people going to therapy and also more open about like, hey, I go to therapy, right? So if we're looking at like that time, that wasn't really something that people were as open about. Um, and you know, for a lot of us, that was like, like I said, that was like the first like portrayal of that. So if you have people that really aren't like connected or doing their research to what therapy is like, yeah, it's kind of like false advertising. Yeah. But you're so funny with like the mob part because like even as a therapist, right? Like we hear so much about people's lives. And sometimes when people, you know, in my real life ask about being a therapist and things like that, this kind of comes up, not specifically mob life, but and I don't know if you this happens with you, Heather, but sometimes when a person is sharing about something, it's like in my head, it's like, do I want to know this because I'm very curious? And this is like a wild story, or this is something like so foreign, and like I want to learn about it, or is this clinical? And like to your point about like she got so wrapped up in it, like, yeah, that is mob life is something that most of us don't experience. But I mean, let's something I can use to help my client, or is this just my own curiosity as a person? I mean, I'm all about getting the tea. Yeah. That's a word to give in the reason. Yes, I want to see the picture. Yes, I want to see the text. Yeah, play me the video. Um I'm all about that, but there's something about how in it she gets. Yeah. Especially when you see the the scenes where she's having supervision with whoever that is. Oh, yeah, like her ex-husband or something. Like you remember so much about this show. I've watched it three times. My husband is like, why are you watching this again? This actually reminds me of my family. Jesus. Yeah. And it's just the language, the thick accent and the language. Um, but uh you can hear in supervision that she is like defending him. Like, there's something about how compromised her perspective gets because she's so overly involved. Overly involved, yeah. And like we're all a little biased towards our clients. Oh my gosh, yeah. And I was just gonna say, like, don't get me wrong, like we genuinely care about our clients and are invested in their lives. But there's a boundary there, right? Like, and it's hard, I guess it's hard to like explain where that line is. It's just kind of like a a way of knowing, you know. Yeah, that's why I said it's like a felt sense of where it's gone too far. Yeah, that's a good, that's a good point. Or like a good way to put it. Yeah. Like I think like one of my measures is like I'm getting overly involved. Actually, we were talking about this um in supervision yesterday at my practice, about like being overly involved or like being emotionally ignited by like what may be going on in the room. And there are two like things that I use myself and then like help, you know, the clinicians that I work with is um there's a phrase in addiction treatment. It's like getting your dog out of the fight. So when you're feeling like activated or you feel strongly about something, it's like, okay, this is a cue for me that I'm like doing more work than the client, or like I'm like too involved in this. Yeah. And I think another good measure for me is if I were to tell like another therapist, like if I were to like consultation or like I were to call you up, Heather, and talk about a case, like if I am feeling some kind of negative emotion or wanting to protect an element of what I'm sharing about the story, I'm probably going too far. You know, like I probably crossed that line. Or I'm I'm I'm straddling that line. Yeah. Yeah. She's, I think, the one that most people think of because the show's premise is uh an amazing premise. It's an amazing concept for a show. A mobster goes to therapy because he's having panic attacks. Attacks and the ducks and the ducks. Um so I want to talk about one other show in that same vein of boundaries, right? Because, like, again, the the theme that we keep seeing is like therapists with boundary violations. There was a show that started about 2008 called In Treatment. It's on HBO, you can still watch it. There's four seasons. The first three are from back in the day, and then a couple years ago they did the reboot of the fourth season. So the fourth season actually is a different therapist. The first three seasons are uh Gabriel Byrne plays uh Dr. Paul Weston. And it's a cool concept. You get to see him, and every episode there's like four different clients that you sort of go week to week with, and then his own supervision, and you get to see a little of his private life, which is falling apart. By the way, that's another theme. We're all falling apart in the background. Yeah. Um he's such a complex, interesting uh example because he does have a relationship with a client. And it's the number one rule. It's the number one rule. Everybody knows you come out of grad school, don't fuck your client, you know. He doesn't actually, spoiler alert, he doesn't have sex with her, but he goes to and this is evolving, the boundary was gone, it's evolving. She goads him into this. There's uh some histrionic stuff happening. Um and so transference and counter-transferents start happening. Um and but putting that aside, he's an excellent therapist. Putting that particular client aside, he is an excellent therapist. He's also psychoanalytic, so um, it's different than I would do. But his line of questioning is very good with some of these clients. But when I think about like that, this was probably a step up from Dr. Melfi, is because it does show his humanity. I think of this particular episode where he's treating this little kid and the little kid's parents are going through a terrible divorce, and really he is like caught in the middle. He's getting bullied at school because he's overweight. And he tells Dr. Weston, I stopped eating because maybe I'll get skinnier and they won't pick on me anymore. You know, he's trying to find something to control. And later through their conversation, he tells Dr. Weston, I'm really hungry. And Dr. Weston says, Do you want me to make you a sandwich? And because Paul works out of his house, takes him into the kitchen. Yeah, people do, um, and makes him a sandwich and they keep talking through this. And I thought, uh, like some people would call that a boundary issue. I call that real deep compassion. You know, like that is probably something I would do, you know. Um and it made me think of Karen Kleiman. Uh shout out to Karen Kleiman, owner of postpartum stress center. Um, I used to work for her, and one of the things she used to say is that oftentimes therapists play the good mother. Um, and I would finish that sentence by saying, until you can mother yourself. And this sort of embodied that for me, you know, of like wanting to nurture and take care of clients until they can get on their own two feet. I'm as a child too, so I feel like so it shows that like some boundaries aren't that black and white. You know, you can't be rigid like Dr. Melfi tried to be, um, because then it erases your humanity. And how are you gonna trust someone that's not even human? Um, or not portraying their humanity. And so like he does some of these things that are definitely questionable, but then you see some of these moments where you're like, yeah, man, that's like deep, man. That hits you right in the field. So I don't know if that's something you would ever do, but like I don't know. I think sometimes it shows up like some of these conundrums therapists get themselves into aren't that easily navigated. Yeah. And sometimes you just have to go with, you know, your inner compass or whatever. Absolutely. I I think most, all right, not all, right? Because we can't sleep with our clients and those types of things, right? Yeah, that's just that's black and white. Yeah. But I think a lot of our boundaries are in the gray. Like I'm thinking, like you mentioned um like the uh theories that these two therapists like work out of, right? Like, so if we're using, which is more modern now, like a more person-centered approach where it's like, for those who don't know, it's like we have unconditional positive regard for our clients. No matter what you bring to us, like we are still gonna accept you, we are gonna work with that, like and to your point, Heather, like that nurturing in um perspective. So, where was I going with this? So I think a lot of our boundaries in operating that way are in the gray. Yeah. And I think, like you said, like trusting your gut and like, could I could I justify this? Like, could I justify doing this? Yeah. Does this make sense if I heard, if I took myself out of this and I heard somebody saying this, like, would I be like, oh yeah, I that makes sense. Yeah, that that's the right call. Um, Heather, you you used a couple of therapy words and uh that no no no, excellent. But for hardly to I know, right? But for our listeners who aren't in the field may be like, what the hell is that? Transference. Transference and counter-transference. Can you um can you share like what that those words mean? Yes. For those that may not know. And I'm trying not to backwards them because I know, right? Transference is when, for instance, uh Tony Soprano has transference when it comes to Dr. Malfi. And it happens um sometimes uh when a client, as an example, when a client has never been heard before, never has felt seen in their life, they start to exhibit feelings for their therapist, they think they're in love with them, but really it's just because somebody has never been that present with them and it feels so connected. And so there's emotions that come up, and sometimes it's not positive emotions, sometimes it's negative, where your therapist starts to remind you of maybe your shitty mom or whatever, and now you're starting to get angry at your therapist. Um, so there's just a uh uh trying to find a better word for it, like um an activation by your therapist of things that aren't actually your therapist happening with that person. Yeah, yeah. So almost like an activation of emotion that you're applying to your therapist, but really has something to do with somebody in your real life. Yeah. And so counter-transference would be the opposite where the therapist is now feeling certain things uh because of how the client is presenting or or engaging or whatever. Um neither one is the other person's fault. Yeah, just to say. Um and it's something that therapists really have to be on top of in both scenarios, but um especially when it's counter transference, because that's not very it's not healthy for us to be um activated in this way. And sometimes it means, and it should have meant for Dr. Moffie, stop seeing this client. You need to send them to someone else. Um I like to think that sometimes it can be worked through with psychoeducation, like helping the client understand what these feelings are. But when it's our own, like the client doesn't even know about that. We need to go do something about that. Oh yeah, absolutely. Like transference can sometimes be something that becomes therapeutic in the room. But our counter transference is ours to manage without the client. In the case of Tony Soprano, he couldn't he couldn't get out of that, and so he would send her gifts and do things for her and like try to kiss her and like and um in Dr. Well Weston's case, um he his counter train well first of all, it was both and I just sit there and I'm like, how did you not see the personality disorder, the attachment issue in your face? But whatever. Anyway, um she is talking very explicitly to get a rise out of him. She is confessing her love. He actually for quite a long time did not react to it, but went to supervision and talked about it, and the supervisor was like, get out of there, you know? Um It's interesting watching his supervision because he almost acts just like some of his clients, very defiant, very angry. In fact, one of the things that struck me about in treatment in the first three seasons is how often these clients yell at him. So I watched a couple of snippets of episodes. I did not get to his supervision part, so now I'm thinking, Oh, I want to go back and find some of those. Um He just yells at her the whole time. Oh, thanks. But my husband and I were like laughing, like, I don't think I've ever been yelled at before by a client, and they just pummel him, man. They're like, You're not listening to me. And he absolutely is. He'll like verb, he like gives them right back everything that they've been saying and ties it up with a bow, and they're like, oh, like it's it's funny. It's like mic drop. Yeah, but um I just thought that I don't know that that's a great representation of how people show up. Sure, you've got resistant people, sure, calling them out on their bullshit is doesn't always go well. Um, but these people, man, wow, wow, he gets a lot of avoidant aggressive people. Yeah, there was one episode I was watching, and it was like a teenage girl was the client. She had got into an accident, and she was almost like baiting him about like she was resistant and she was like baiting him about like read the file. Don't you want to read the file? Don't you want to like he was like, Yeah, I don't need to read the file. Like, I want to hear from you. And it was like, I was so aligning with him, like, yeah, I would handle that the same way. Like, all right, the file's there, but I want to hear from you. It's like an intake form. Like, okay, I can look at that, but like, I want to hear from you. Yeah. And it was just like activating her and activating her. And like, again, that way of being. He was just calm, he was present, and uh, she showed up for the next session. That's pretty accurate, I think, in that people come to therapy thinking, I just need you to do my evaluation. I just need this assessment and I'll be on my way. And most therapists are like, Yeah, that's not how this goes. You know, I'm not a one-stop shop and bye. Ma'am, thank you, ma'am. No, yeah, I think he it's fresh in my head because I recently watched it, but he said, Yeah, she was going for like an evaluation for the insurance company for this accident that she had. And he goes, All right, well, this isn't like a like an MRI. Like, you're not just gonna like come in and do it, and then we're done here. He's like, I need to like get to know you to give you this evaluation. Yeah. And he does masterfully, I think. Yeah. Um, if you watch it all the way through. Uh, but yeah, so so that's uh there so there are elements of really good points to Dr. Weston in particular in uh in treatment. And then there are just like the dude, what are you doing, man? First rule. First rule, don't fuck your clients, or or at least want to, or get, you know, move towards that. Yeah, yeah. Um you know who else is a really bad therapist on TV? Have you ever seen the move or the not the movie, the TV show Lucifer? No. Did you ever watch that? No, oh it's good. I mean it's cheesy. It's good. Um, and the main character who plays Lucifer is a beautiful drink of water. Um but he finds this he's he's Lucifer, he's the devil having fun on Earth. He owns a club, it's weird, and he goes to therapy. I know. Um, I mean, that's an amazing concept on its own, right? If anybody needed therapy who has attachment issues, it would be Lucifer, you know? Um but the therapist she and this is always I think how it goes. Like they're scripted little nuggets of like truth, therapeutic insight, whatever. And the rest of the time, they're fucking bonkers. Like she exchanges therapy for sex and blurs the lines between she's just friends, she just shows up all the time hanging out. Wait, is she doing this with just him or with and his group of people? Yeah. Alright. Like, is this like a fair represent? I'm not picking up with a lady. But isn't the whole thing with the devil like trying to lure you and pull you to like these sinful or nefarious things? Like, is that like I again I haven't seen the show, but but also the sort of the gist of the show is also to make you endeared towards him and not in a devious way. But like have compassion for the devil. Yeah. I know. I know that actually leads me to a fun question I want to ask you. If you could provide therapy to anyone, famous, dead, alive, who would it be and why? Oh my god. I don't I feel like I need days to think about that. It's a good one. I mean, if I was fluent in Spanish, I would love to treat Frida Kahlo back here. And not that I know much about substance abuse, uh, because she had that issue towards uh well most of her life because she was in such chronic pain. Um but just to just to uh explore her thinking, right? Her her pain. She had such wonderful ways of putting her pain on canvas, and I just would love to help with that, you know. Understand that. Yeah. That's the first person. Well, I'm looking right at her face. So came to my mind. How who how about you? Oh, I'm prepared for this. Oh, really? It came to me a couple weeks ago. You ever like just randomly you're thinking stuff and shit just pops in your head? So mine would be Jackie Kennedy Onassis. Did you watch that show? Yes. Well, yeah, and that's probably what prompted the thought. But I just think about there's been so many portrayals of her. Um, you know, books about her, movies, TV shows, and I'm just so curious, like, what's behind the curtain, like what she was really like thinking and feeling in her life, and just the idea of what she experienced of her husband being shot dead right in front of her, and she's right, like, and just kept going. Like, what would I would have loved to be her therapist? Yeah. There's so many, there's so many choices. I know, right? Yeah. Um, yeah, that's a really good question. What about uh fictional? Uh fictional? That's not I always fix that about message. Yeah, fictional, like not real. Yeah. Have you ever thought of that? Fictional character. Do you have one of mine? While I'm thinking. Not really. I don't know. That's a good question though. Yeah. I'll have to think on that. Yeah, I'll have to think that. Yeah, if it comes to me uh during our time together, I'll circle back. Circle back. Um, another really bad one. But actually, bad in a different way. Okay. Well every time you start this, I'm like, is she gonna say that the one I love is bad? So I'm like probably not. Uh no, well both no, not yet. Uh we'll get there. Uh because I have a thought, I have a inclination. Um did you ever watch Mad Men? Yes. Yes. So that old school analyst. I mean, that's how they used to do it. You sit behind your head, you lay on the couch, you're a Freudian, right? Yeah. Um bad as in holy uncomfortableness, Batman. But also bad because he used stuff from her husband to sort of navigate that. And it's hard to tell, like, was that how it was back then? I don't know if we had as many rules as we do now about confidentiality. Yeah. Um considering that was a time where gender norms were very structured. I don't know, but I just thought how unhelpful is this shit? Like, she's not getting anything out of this. No. And just that style of therapy where you know the person's laying on the couch, the therapist is behind you, and you're just like talking and Hello. It's like that, you know, yeah. Are you still there? Like, how do yeah, are you not falling asleep? Like, yeah, because they barely talk. No, you're just goes in there and speaking into the void. Vents. Yeah. Like Which again, which again, right? Like a big pet peeve of mine that there is this view of therapy as a place where you vent. Certainly there's a time for that. Oh, absolutely. That's not all it is. Otherwise, nothing's gonna if venting helped, we'd all just not go to therapy, we just talk to our friends, and that would be it, and life would be better. But that doesn't actually create change, which is probably why I have a big problem with the older models of therapy and why I don't do them. Yeah. Because they don't they're not um like change doesn't happen, or change doesn't happen as rapidly. Just because you know something doesn't mean it changes anything. I know that a lot of people know why they do what they do doesn't mean they can stop it, you know. Or just talking at the into the void doesn't what does that do? You do it in your mind already. But yeah. Yeah, I forgot that there was a therapy element in Mad Men. Like when we were talking about this topic, I was thinking about some of these shows that are so directly about therapy, but you're right, there is some representation in other things. Yeah, well, and back then I think it's representative of oh my god, the woman is hysterical again. Let's shove her off somewhere and you know, get get you're crazy. Yeah, and it was a lot, wasn't there a lot of like med prescribed? What was the med that they used to prescribe? Like every housewife was on it, and it was like you're just with hysteria. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And she was depressed, she needed connection. She didn't need to sp just listen to herself talk. Yeah, you know. Yeah, really. I mean, like, to your point, she was doing that by herself all day, every day in her head. Yeah. Under pressure. Right. So I think maybe the biggest thing and the issue I have with the old school way of doing therapy is that it is it and and Dr. Melfi and these sort of very um wound tight therapists is that the biggest part that's helpful for change and therapeutic, you know, work is connection. It's connecting to to have a safe connection. Because a lot of what people deal with is because they never had that in the right way. You know, there there's attachment issues, there's the way a lot of people grew up wasn't connected and safe, you know? And I think that's what a lot of these therapists are missing. I don't know. Somehow Tony Soprano found Dr. Melfi, he tried to connect to her even. Well, she just listened. That was enough, I guess. You know. Well, and different strokes for different folks in some ways, right? Like some people just need somebody to to listen. I mean, I'm thinking I've had clients, you know, past and present, that probably do need the connection of a friend, but for one reason or another, like they don't have that. And in some ways, like that's what I provide in our session. Yeah. You know? Yeah, the good mother in a way, like I was saying. One of the things in in treatment that oh no, I'm thinking, I'm losing my train of thought here. Talking about the show in treatment, or you're talking about in treatment, like when we're doing our work. The show. It was something about um on that line of connection, but I forgot it, so we'll just move on. It'll come back to me, but uh oh, here's one that gets under my skin. Everybody's probably seen that clip out of context of Wanda Sykes playing a therapist. Oh and it comes from what is that movie? Bad mom's Christmas? Oh yeah. Seeing the clip out of context, it's hilarious. I never knew what she was talking about. I just love the part where Kristen Bell is like, I want to know. And she's like, You really want to know? And she's like, Yeah, and she's like, It's you, motherfucker! Like, you're the problem. That's hilarious. I know there's definitely times where I have definitely felt that way, you know, where people are like, I don't know why, I can't get out of this pattern. I don't know why. I keep doing this thing over and over, and I want to be like, it's you, motherfucker, you know. But then I saw the whole clip and it changed everything. Because what she's saying is the whole clip is the whole scene is, you want to know why your mother's so stressed out? It's you. Which that's like we're like, ooh, ooh, that's the that nothing could be more anti-Freudian. Right? Like, uh no. We're not gonna pass the blame. Why are we gonna tell mom she doesn't need to work on her own shit because it's your fault? Oh my god. Yeah. I know that's gonna ruffle some feathers, but like, oh, now that I know the context of that, it's not funny anymore to me. Like, there's some things we all have a part in the story, right? Oh, absolutely. We all contribute, right? But what Wanda Sykes, who played Dr. Carl in that scene, that no. No. No. Yeah, it's like kind of or not kind of, but it is exactly the opposite of what we do. Yeah. Yeah. And so many, I don't I'm sure Heather, like you experience this too, but people coming in believing that they are the problem when they're not, or like taking on that blame when it's not theirs to carry. Right. And um, yes, there's we're saying it's okay to not have any accountability. Who's the parent here? I don't care how old you are. You know what I mean? Yeah. Mmm. I have thoughts. Feelings. And feelings. Intense feelings. I am activated. Yeah, I was really disappointed with that once I watched the whole clip. I was like, Oh, I ruined it. Yeah, because the the out of context, it's like relatable. It's funny, not that anybody would ever say. I mean, I might joke with my client like that, but not in a serious way. But I yeah. Or the Taylor Swift song, like, it's me, hi, I'm the problem. And if somebody said that, okay, let's look at how you're the problem. Exactly. I think at the heart of it, what bothers me is that you know, you're supposed to be aligned with your client, and that's not that's blame shifting, and and it's not that's not helpful to the client. You think that insight's gonna wake them up? No, now they're leaving feeling like shit out of yeah, and probably affirming negative core beliefs, and but that's why Wanda Sykes is not a therapist. Yeah, I love her, she's amazing. Don't quit your day job. Um let's talk about more good positive uh looks at things, and of course, I think because it's right now uh continuing to to be you know on TV, um, shrinking is what everybody's been talking about. And it's funny, I mean it's funny, but like it's also funny because I feel like again, if you Google this, the internet has a lot to say about how awful they are. Really? I'm interested in hearing this because I feel the exact opposite about well right like Jimmying. Yeah. Gabby. Oh, I don't spoiler alert, you know, don't go out with your client. Yeah. Yeah, right? Okay, yeah. So many things. Okay. So many things. However, I like to think I'm a mixture of all three, Paul, Gabby, and Jimmy. I was gonna ask you, who do you I think I'm a combo. All right, I come out with wisdom nuggets like Paul. I'm funny like Abby. And not that I ha do boundary violations like Jimmy, but I'm not as orthodox. Like I like to think I'm sort of not orthodox in the way that you know, Dr. Mount V and some of these like, you know, very mm-like I do like to find alternate ways to connect things, connect, you know, whatever. I'm not going out with my clients. I mean, I do walk and talk. Yeah. That's different. But that's different. Yeah, you're not meeting them at what was it, like trivia or something. Yeah, no. At a bar. Um, yeah. Who who do you think you're most like? Hey, I was thinking about this. Um, I think I'm a combo of Gabby and Jimmy. Like, I certainly think that I bring the Gabby energy and very much like a cheerleader for my clients, and you know, like a little bit like goofy and humorous and things like that. Um, and I think like I'm probably like I was gonna say 50-50, but I think there's a little bit of Paul in there. Um, and like Jimmy in those realness moments, but he's like, all right, let me give it to you straight. Like, and kind of like does that like leaning in, validating the client's experience, reflecting back, like those kinds of things. Like, I think that that's my style too. I don't think I'm as grouchy as Paul. I'm pretty grouchy. But I had like the best compliment though. One of my supervisees like posted something on TikTok and said, like, Chelsea is my Paul, and I was like, oh it was like that's like the best compliment. Like, yeah, because I do, although I think I'm different than Paul, I think he like as you use the word, like wisdom, like his character is very wise, certainly very seasoned and stain it all. Yeah, yeah. And then he also has like these tiny moments where he can be like soft and compassionate. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I adore him. I know. Um and that show, oh my god, I remember I think if you're a therapist, you pee your pants when you watch this. Oh my god, I know. I remember so when it was supposed to come out, I was so excited. Like I thought like the trailer was hysterical. Like wonderful title, like you know, yeah. I mean, I love anything that Brett Goldstein does, who which he did, Ted Lasso. Oh yeah. This is his show. He's in vote. Ted Lasso had a therapist. Ted Lasso had a therapist, and I liked her too. Yeah, she was alright. She got through to Ted. She needed more scenes. She did. She did. I think she did good work with Ted. But um, back to shrinking. So watched the first episode and I like fell in love. Like I thought it was hysterical. Um, you know, the opening credits is my favorite band, Deathcab for Cutie. I was like, whoa, what is this? But beyond like those surface level things, I just appreciated so much the although humorous, right? Portrayal of like therapists are real people. Like Jimmy was a hot ass mess in the beginning of that and still doing his work. And I totally fangirled and I wrote like a comment on the Instagram of like, thank you. Thank you for you know portraying that like kind of like what I just said, like therapists are real and we go through our own shit, but it doesn't mean that like we don't have something to give, or like those things can go on simultaneously. Or I think I've said to you before, Heather, even like therapists can be like fucked up in their own lives and still do their job really well. It's quite amazing when you know both sides of that. Um yes, in the same vein, if if you never watched the rest of In Treatment, I highly recommend the fourth season. Okay. Um Dr. Brooke Taylor played by Uso Aduba. I hope I'm saying her name correctly. Fantastic. If she did not win an award for that role, she should have. It is a beautiful blend of a therapist going through her shit, okay, showing up for her clients, and doing her own work. There is a scene where she is talking to herself as if she's doing parts work. It's fucking phenomenal. I and to date, I think that's one uh that's probably number one on my list of amazing portrayals. Okay. Um you see how she struggles just like Paul Weston does with caring so much about her clients, but she does. In her lane. She's dealing with her own shit. She's showing up. You can see how hard that is. She's doing the work on herself, which we need to show that more. We need to show therapists and therapy more. And speaking of which, this is um probably my second favorite uh portrayal. Have you ever seen the show Wanderlust? No, but I've heard of it. Yeah. But what is it? Uh Tony Collette, who wonderful. Um, she is a therapist who is having trouble in her marriage. They decide to try an open marriage. There's all these other things going on. Her her her client dies by suicide. So irrelevant. There's, I think, six episodes. The fifth episode, she goes to therapy. And it is Chef's kiss. Amazing. I sat there like, oh shit, I should be taking notes right now. Yeah, I'm writing this down right now. This is amazing. Now, I've seen Shitty talk about that on the internet, but as a therapist watching that, I was like, wow, she got in there and Niagara Falls. Like, really, she got to the deepness of it, and it all just came out. And it was beautiful, and that is what therapy is. Um watch the whole show to give some context to it, but like it's only a couple episodes, so but between like those two portrayals, I think the biggest piece here is to normalize our humanness that we do struggle in our own lives. We do struggle to show up sometimes, how important it is to do our own work, like and have some humor about it for Christ's sake. You are such an advocate for therapists and therapy. Like, yeah, you I have heard you say that a number, and I'm I'm with you, but I feel like that is your thing. You know what I mean? Like that is because I work with a very hard population. I work with veterans and first responders. Um, camaraderie is essential to get through these people. I'm part of that population, so I get it. Like these are tough nuts to crack. You have to build rapport consistently. It's not like a few sessions. This is every time we are joking, we are connecting, we are getting personal, we are in order to dig deep. Because they're not gonna let you otherwise. It's too shameful, it's too vulnerable. So, yeah, I exactly who you see here is who fucking shows up in there. Yeah, I think it's important. So, what do you think? I mean, so obviously in shrinking, there are like very egregious crossings. But it's a it's a satire, right? I mean, a woman pushed her boyfriend out of the collection. She's like funny, stuff on it. Or something like that, right? But there is something to that. I mean, like, taking the guy to the to the wrestling ring, like I don't know. Like, I think that it's showing that therapy is gonna have to evolve. Yes. Because traditional ways of doing things and and possibly even just sitting in a chair all day, like, I don't think it's gonna stay that way. I think people want connection, I think they need movement. And so it's gonna be interesting to see how the field evolves, how the portrayals um might reflect that. Yeah. No, agreed. There are some things in there, right? That I and again, this idea of like, yeah, I could, I could subscribe to that. Like I could see like your thought process. And yeah, I mean, and I know I always bring up or often bring up the example of like substance use treatment, like when they connected, um, even when Gabby brought her female client to to the the what were they doing? MMA, I think it is. Oh, the MMA, yeah, yeah. Yeah, brought them there or brought her there. Um, I was like, okay, well, this is kind of like parallel to right, like, I am gonna meet you at like an AA meeting, right? Like, I'm gonna show you a connection to a community, but maybe I am safe to you, so like I will be the vehicle of that, but then I'm gonna like pull away from that. Now, yeah, I don't know if I necessarily would do that, but I can see the logic behind that. There's a scene in I think it's the second season of In Treatment where Paul has a client, a young woman who has cancer. She actually passes out in his office. And when she comes to, he's like, You have to go to chemo. Like she's been resisting, resisting. She doesn't have anybody to take her. And he is just like, You have to go. Somebody you have to find somebody who will take you. And she, and he's like, What? Do I have to take you? And she says, Would you? And so he does, just the first time. Yeah. And then he says, You have to figure it out from there. And I don't know, it's one of those areas you don't, I don't know that you know what you would do until you were there. Yeah, agreed. And again, us always operating or often operating in the gray, there's so many variables. Yeah. Right? Like, what is my relation? Like also having to gauge, like, does the client understand the boundaries here? Like, is this a safe client to do this with safety for both of us? Mm-hmm. Yeah, in that instance, it it doesn't seem so bad to me because like it's still in the realm of health, medical assistance, resources, whatever. And she was running out of time. It wasn't like, well, we need to keep processing why you won't ask so and so, you know. Yeah. She's running out of time. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what I think about that one. I know. It's it's interesting. Give therapists something to chew on. Because I don't think you can be rigid anymore, especially with the younger generations. Like they don't roll that way, I don't think. You know? Heather, I'm curious because you are like a grief expert. I think I'm curious what your thoughts are on shrinking specifically that like each season focuses almost on a a piece of grief, right? And I and like how they each person is kind of moving through that. So I think even like the the titles of them, I think the most recent one was like acceptance or something like that. So I'm curious, as a grief expert, how do you think the portrayal of the grief process is? I think in treatment it looks how it looks. Um, I think about the couple that didn't know if they wanted to have an abortion or not after being in fertility treatment forever, and um, she ended up spoiler alert, she loses the baby. And I think it shows people in their avoidance stage of grief pretty well and having to confront it. Uh, same thing with Wanderlust, her eventual confrontation of her own grief, which wasn't even like, yes, her client died, but it goes even further back, which I spoiler alert, it always does. It always does. Like, grief is not always death, too. Like, I like to include that too. Grief is any kind of morning of a change. The identity um shift and um just loss in general. Yeah, I think it does a pretty good job of that. I think shrinking did a good job with Gabby in that way. Um, I think uh Jimmy's going through it. I mean, wow, wow. He really went off the deep end, but like, yeah, yeah. I I often think about well, what would that look like for me? You know? Yeah. And again, you just never know until you're there and knock on wood. I don't ever want to be there. Yeah. Um it does, I think these are thought-provoking, all of them, the bad and the good, is thought provoking for therapists and what kind of therapists they want to be. Um, and think about what people actually need and do those things go together. And for people who are not therapists, but maybe curious or in therapy, I think it gives some perspective that we're not all the same. We're different. And and maybe to be curious about those differences and not take everything you see on TV as Bible truth, you know. Yeah. Yeah. All have different ways of doing it. And like even though some of these ones that we talked about were like, oh my god, like, what is this portrayal? I think they all have the theme of like, we are still human, like we and we are gonna make mistakes, or we don't always have have the answer as a therapist. And I think that's probably true in most professions, like that you're not always gonna have the answer. But I think people put a lot of weight into therapy, and I appreciate that they do, and I appreciate when people understand that we are human. Yeah, and I think the humanness is important because there's definitely been times in my career where the boundaries weren't so where they needed to be. You know, especially when you're a a young clinician and you're just trying to figure out how these things work and like um and you're still working through your own shit. Like, sometimes there are gonna be moments where we're like, oh, I look back and maybe I shouldn't have done that, you know, or maybe that wasn't the best thing for the client at the time, but these are things that we learn and grow from, and we have to forgive ourselves for those things. I mean, don't fuck your client. Yeah, it does happen. And just a last note like you can look up your your therapist's license to see if there's been any infractions on it, to so people know it's public record. Um But you know, I don't know. I think it's an exciting time that like these things might keep evolving and our profession might open to very interesting ways of of getting things done. Yeah, of doing our work. And you know, yeah, I think we do need to grow and evolve because 20, 30, 40 years from now, somebody maybe there may be two therapists critiquing how we did things now, right? If we don't evolve. So yeah. Yeah, this was a great topic, Heather. I was yeah, I really uh I really enjoyed this. Yeah, it's fun. And now everybody's gonna go watch those shows, right? Yeah, yeah. I know I've been binging in treatment. I feel like I need to go back to it, and then this wonder lost one I'm intrigued by. Yeah, I love Tony Collette and anything. Yeah, she's excellent. Yeah, so thanks for joining us today and listening to the tea. And if you like the episode, then subscribe or follow or whatever you do. And on here, and we'll see you next time. And see you next session.