Leadership, Simply Smarter Episode 1: Creating Resilient Intentional Leadership with Michele Meyer-Shipp

In this episode of Leadership: Simply Smarter, host Vanessa Kelly sits down with Michele Meyer-Shipp, Executive Director & Board Chair of the Fritz Pollard Alliance Foundation, an organization that strives to reflect diversity across all aspects of the NFL. 

Michele brings a rare dual perspective, leading from both the boardroom and executive seat, and she doesn’t shy away from the hard questions. We dig into why she’s a big fan of feedback, how the Fritz Pollard Alliance strives to fulfill its mission, and how her leadership influences her family. 

Whether you lead a team, a nonprofit, a company, or a cause, this episode will challenge you to think smarter about inclusion and give you the tools to lead it with both courage and clarity.

This podcast is intended for general informational purposes only and does not constitute legal or financial advice or a solicitation to provide legal services. The information in this podcast is not intended to create, and receipt of it does not constitute, a lawyer-client relationship. Listeners should not act upon this information without seeking professional legal counsel. The views and opinions expressed in the podcast represent those of the individual speaker only and are not necessarily the views of Clark Hill PLC.

Transcript

This podcast is intended for general informational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice or a solicitation to provide legal services. The information in this podcast is not intended to create and receipt of it does not constitute a lawyer client relationship. Listeners should not act upon this information without seeking professional legal counsel. The views and opinions expressed in the podcast represent those of the individual speaker only and are not necessarily the views of Clark Hill PLC. 

Today's guest is someone who will feel immediately familiar to many of you because, like your host, she began her career as an employment lawyer. But Michelle Meyer Shipp didn't stop there. Over the course of more than 20 years, Michelle has moved from the courtroom to the C-suite, leading enterprise-wide talent, culture, and inclusion strategy at some of the world's most recognized organizations, including Major League Baseball, KPMG, Prudential Financial, and Merrill Lynch.

Most recently, she served as the chief executive officer of Dress for Success worldwide, leading a global reinvention across 140 chapters in more than 20 countries. Today, Michelle serves as the interim executive director and board chair of the Fritz Pollard Alliance Foundation, which advances inclusive leadership across professional football.

Michelle is a Forbes 50 Over 50 impact honoree, and she's a transformative leader in every sense of the word. Michelle, welcome to Leadership Simply Smarter. 

I have the pleasure of interviewing Michele Meyer-Shipp today, who is a nationally recognized leader in workforce culture, inclusivity, and organizational strategy, and responding to change. You may remember Michele as being a Chief People Officer at MLB, and then she was the CEO, Chief Executive Officer, for an organization called Dress for Success. And now she's got a really interesting new position that's at the Fritz Pollard organization, which is a not-for-profit organization. And we're gonna chat with her about that today. And you know, I've already given Michele full disclosure, I'm a total fan girl. I stalk her on LinkedIn and read about all of her exploits, so she knows that.

But I'm really happy that you all get to hear her career trajectory and all kinds of fun things. So thanks for coming, Michele. 

Absolutely happy to be here. Thank you for having me, Vanessa. I really appreciate it.

Yeah, we're excited to have you on. So, can you share a little bit about your journey, you of course, have other accomplishments in your background, but MLB to Dress for Success and now to Fritz Pollard. How did your career take that trajectory? 

Michele Meyer-Shipp: Absolutely. Happy to talk about that. I would actually say it actually started at the very beginning when I got outta law school. When I graduated from law school, I had an immediate interest in helping people solve people-related problems. And that led me into a legal career as an employment attorney for, like, the first 10 to 12 years out of grad school.

And first I litigated, you know, I worked at a big law firm. Then, I worked at a smaller law firm and I didn't really enjoy litigation and I actually didn't like the fighting around people issues that came with litigation, and so that led me in-house. Where I had a really cool opportunity to work in a more proactive way, helping organizations think about policies, practices, and initiatives that they could do to build strong cultures, to create inclusive environments, and to recruit, advance, and grow talent of all backgrounds. Like, that's how it literally started. And I remember, you know, dibbing and dabbling in the work initially from the employment law group at my first corporation, which was Merrill Lynch, and I fell in love. I actually fell in love with the talent part. I fell in love with the culture part.

I really love the build. 

So, obviously, you know, I was saying to myself like, what do I do now? How does this work? Like, what do I do? Like, move to HR. I really wasn't sure what to do, but I didn't realize at the time that I had several sponsors that I didn't know were my sponsors and they were watching me too, and they offered me the opportunity to apply for a job at Prudential where I ultimately became the Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer. It was a global role. It was brand-new to me. I had obviously never done this role before, and they wanted somebody who had the kind of career background that I had had because they thought it would be helpful when it came to policies and making sure that as we were building policies, we were compliant with the law and all of those things.

And there, it took off. I was in that role almost 10 years, and then I moved on to do the work in two other organizations. And when I went to Major League Baseball, I took on the expanded role of having HR DEI and office operations. So. 

Oh, wow. 

It was really neat because it was almost like with each role I grew and with each role, I was able to take on different responsibilities, and it was a very, very natural progression because I almost felt like each role set me up for the next role.

So, the work as an inclusion leader at three amazing organizations exposed me to all of the nuances around navigating HR, talent, culture, et cetera. So, when I moved into baseball, Major League Baseball, and I now was overseeing HR, overseeing operations and inclusion, it kind of came very naturally to me.

And from there, moving into Dress for Success as the CEO, that was, like, the perfect next step because there now I became the Chief Everything Officer, I like to call it. Not chief, but as a lawyer, as an operations leader, and as a talent leader, I was really ready to step into that role where I was overseeing the entire portfolio of our global work.

Interestingly enough, in my prior roles, they all involved me working with what I call satellite offices or affiliate offices. So being able to build collaborative teams across geographies, across regions, across countries. Well, guess what? Dress for Success Global at the time in over 20 countries, o ver 140 affiliates. So all of the things I'd done set me up to do that work. And it was really a blast. I worked in that role for almost four years and I actually got to a point in that role where I felt like my tenure literally had come to an end. And what I mean by that is I was hired to assess the state of the business, which had basically closed its doors during the pandemic. I was hired to build a strategy and to kind of get the organization to reopen its doors, you know, refresh its vision and mission coming out of the pandemic. And when I did that and built the team and stepped back, the work that was left for me to do was work that is not something I'm strong at, which was going out and exclusively doing the fundraising and, 

Right. 

 I didn't wanna just be a fundraiser. So I decided, you know what? My time here was well-served. I did what I enjoyed doing the most. Now I'm ready to go try a new adventure. And now what's really neat is I bring all of that experience to a sport and a place that I'm very passionate about, which is professional football.

And now I am literally about to embark on a very similar adventure with the FPA, the Fritz Pollard Alliance Foundation, which is time for a new strategy. Time to dust off, you know, the mission statement and the operating model. Time to try some new things and time to build the organization up for the next decade.

And so I'm at it again and I'm really excited. It's off to the races.

You are rolling your sleeves up. You know, listening to all of that, one would think that you, you know, sort of had these genius, you know, clairvoyant skills because you knew to take one job, it would lead you to another job. But I think what really happened was that you made the most of each role and you built skills, and you developed experience that then could serve you well in the next role that you took, which is, you know, really a great message for people wanting to develop leadership skills. 

Yeah.

Think about the skills and the experience you build. Not necessarily does it fit within a certain industry or narrow band, because you would think, okay, MLB baseball to Dress for Success?

Completely two different organizations, one's not-for-profit, one's sports, one's not. But yet everything that you had built upon earlier served you really well in that role. 

Yeah. That's right. 

And, and I'll tell you too, Vanessa, the other thing that really came with this, along the way I was very conscious of the fact that I also had to be a continuous learner. I had to constantly think about where I needed to hone my professional skills.

So I was really, really lucky at Prudential. We had a very robust leadership development curriculum. So I mean, I think I cut my teeth there at learning what leadership really looked like because I was surrounded by great leaders and I took amazing professional development courses that really helped me up my game at what it meant to be a leader.

And from there, as I went to different roles that had kind of an expanded scope, I would think about, all right, as I step into this new role, doing this new thing, what am I missing? So when it was, for example, going to Major League Baseball to take on HR, I was like, okay, I'm an employment lawyer. I've supported HR.

But I wanna make sure I get all the fundamentals of HR in my tool belt. And I went and got my HR certification, right? So that I knew what I was talking about, just like I know what I'm talking about when I talk about employment law. And when I went on to the nonprofit Dressed for Success, it was okay, I've never worked in a nonprofit before, so let me go get myself skilled up in the ins and outs of running a nonprofit, and I took program and leadership work on that. And now as I have stepped into, you know, this space of professional sports, I have spent the last 60 days on a really deep listening tour, talking to leaders across the organization, trying to make sure I understand the way this business works.

It's very, very different than even being in professional baseball. It's a different structure, and I need to learn what that's all about. So I think to your point, it's picking up the skills. It's growing along the way, but it's also being very intentional about knowing what you don't know and figuring out how you're gonna fill in those gaps by continuing to educate yourself.

Yeah. That self-assessment and your willingness to really take a hard look, I think that's, just extraordinary. And not everybody has that, but I think that really is the hallmark of a very good leader, especially for times of change and things like that. I've been reading about the resilient leader and in fact, today I just read something on Harvard Business School and they have a little free course you can take on it and everything you've described is there. You've heard that term before, right? The resilient leader? Yep.

I think you are the definition of that in work because you talked about the self-assessment. What other qualities do you think you've worked on that sort of go along that path of a resilient leader? 

Yeah, so I think, it's really important that along the way, you are transparent. I think transparency goes a really long way. I think transparency and authenticity with the teams that you lead is really, really important because in today's work environment, you want people to be with you who are committed to the work, who are committed to the mission, and who are committed to the team.

And folks are not going to be any of those things if they don't believe in you. And again, this is a trait I learned way back from my Prudential days. It's about being authentic. It's about being transparent. It goes a really, really long way. And I also think along the lines of being self-aware, there's self-awareness around where you need to grow professionally, but then there's self-awareness as to how you're showing up and your emotional intelligence quotient.

That is just a key. How are you showing up? Is it being received the way you want it to be received? 

That's right.

How do you measure that in your leadership roles? How have you measured that? 

I've done it a couple of ways actually, and I'm sitting here kind of smiling to myself thinking about it. So I've done all the formal things, like I've taken the various, you know, assessments, Myers-Briggs, et cetera. I've taken all of those. I've gotten all of the results and kind of dove into those to pressure test them.

But I also am a big fan of feedback. I am a big fan of asking the people who work with me, for me, around me, 'Hey, how am I doing?' all the time. I welcome it. A lot of folks only wanna hear the good stuff, but I wanna hear, like, tell me what I got right. Tell me what I maybe didn't get right, what I got wrong, and tell me what I may be missing.

Anybody who's ever worked with me will tell you that that was something I would always do and I always had an open door policy around that. So it's like, 'Hey Michele, you know, at that meeting, I know you intended it to come off this way, but just so you know, you kind of rubbed people the wrong way when you said this, this and that.'

Okay. Thank you for that. I'll be mindful of that next time. So I learn a lot by being open to receiving that kind of feedback.

That's great. And that key about 'What am I missing?' is also amazing. And I think that's also the reason that you do build, diverse teams 

Yep.

Because everyone has different perspectives and brings that in. So, let's talk a little bit about the mission that you're currently, you've gone through this listening tour, which I think is great.

I'm gonna do a little listening tour at my firm, too, because one of the things I'm gonna be working on for our group is retention and development of our associates and things like that. So I didn't wanna presume that I knew what all the problems and what all the good things were. So I'm gonna do like a little listening tour.

So now you made me feel better about my strategy, so thank you for that. But anyway, let's talk about the Fritz Pollard, you know, the mission and how the listening tour fit in with that. 

Yeah, no, absolutely happy to. So first, let me just tell you, a lot of people don't even know who he is.

Oh yeah, Please do. Please share. 

Yeah. 

So Fritz Pollard was one of the very first African Americans to play in the professional football league. Back in the day, I don't know if a lot of people know this, but the league was not welcoming to people of color.

And Fritz Pollard was one of the first black players. He ultimately became the first black NFL coach. And you know, when I think about the things that he experienced, the trials and tribulations, the racism, traveling to play games in cities where he wasn't welcomed and he couldn't drink out of the water fountains and all of those things,

It's a story of resilience and courage, et cetera. The Fritz Pollard Alliance Foundation was founded over 20 years ago to work with the NFL, to be really intentional about driving access and opportunity into careers in the league to everyone, including the most underrepresented, in marginalized groups, people of color, women, et cetera.

And that's the work that it has been undertaking for the last 20 years or so. I now am in the role where I'm helping the organization look at where we are in our current day, current sociopolitical environment, all the different things that are happening in the job market, all the things that are happening across the league.

To really think about how we can position ourselves right now to be the best versions of ourselves and fulfill the mission of the organization in a way that's timely, relevant, and sustainable.

When I heard that you had taken on this role and learned about the organization, and first of all, I don't know how Fritz Pollard became a coach that time in history; he just must have been an extraordinary individual because we know how difficult it still is today.

And to think that he did it when the league wasn't even welcoming to p layers of color, let alone a coach. So I just at some point I'm gonna have to read his bio and just understand that because it really gets me that he was able to do that. But, you know, just a couple of years ago, I remember speaking about the EEOC having this initiative called Hire, and it was aimed at systemic discrimination and actually providing avenues and opportunities for substantial jobs, meaningful jobs, not just, you know, hourly or low paying, minimum wage kind of jobs for all kinds of people, you know, 

Right.

Disabled, underrepresented, and the EEOC did all these dialogues workshops with not-for-profits, with industry leaders and all of that. And now we're with an EEOC that's removing guidance on all kinds of critical civil rights protections and the guidance, as an employment lawyer was really helpful to clients because it gave them a little bit of a blueprint to do that. So now we're dealing with, a completely different EEOC and a completely different regulatory landscape that in lot of ways is even to DEI efforts. So how do you keep people motivated to really continue the mission and continue to strive for, the fulfillment of the mission under that kind of a climate? 

Yeah, so I think it really is about looking at the current state of demographics in the nation. I mean, the nation is becoming majority minority, period. So if you just think about basic workforce demographics over the next five to 10 years, your growing quote, minority is becoming more and more prevalent in the workforce. So you can't ignore the population, period, whether you like it or not. I would like to think that folks would be embracing and appreciative of the many, many benefits of having diverse teams. Even those who don't get it really have to appreciate that. If you wanna have talent in the market, you want to be fully representative of the markets where you're doing business. You cannot ignore the groups that have been historically underrepresented, and sadly it often is people of color, black and brown communities, among others. And I think the people that I am coming across in dealing with across the league get that. So there are lots of conversations around not only [what] you read the news and everybody's focused on the very top of the house and it's like, oh, well, head coaches, and there were none and you know, GMs and all the things.

And I'm thinking, well, guess what guys? If you've spent the prior 10 years building a bench that had no diversity, how do you expect to get to the top? And suddenly it's there to plop in the top seats. To build the bench, we have to look in the middle of the bench and we have to make sure that we're developing and supporting all of the talent that's sitting there, and we have to enrich the pipeline so that as we move forward over the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years, by the time the next generation of leaders is sitting around going, okay, who are our candidates for head coach or gm? They're looking at a very natural, diverse slate that was not constructed in a way that was not authentic, if that makes sense.

Yeah, I love that. One time I was pitching for a really great project and I built the team and I solely looked at experience and sort of the skills and I thought a little bit out of the box 'cause I needed somebody that had the consulting experience, being able to deal with data.

So I actually borrowed somebody from our energy group to do that. And then when I looked around, I was like, oh my God, we just built a very diverse team, and it was completely authentic and genuine. And I was like, I love this. 

Yes.

'Cause, 'cause I didn't want it to seem to the perspective client, like, oh yeah, we just wanted to have, you know, whatever.

So we were very intentional about that. But, you're absolutely right: If you don't build the bench, how can you expect people to just walk into the highest level of leadership there 

Yep.

and succeed? And this also hits your sweet spot 'cause starting earlier in your career, you love talent development.

So it's hitting all of that. I think this is really kind of neat and then, me being a little bit of a, a geek, I guess we'll call it, you know, I was curious about you holding two positions. Okay. So you're the interim director, which is the operational equivalent of the CEO kind of position, but you're also the chair of the board, which is sort of the oversight of the organization.

So how do you have the two hats and how do they serve each other? You know, what challenges do you face holding both those? 

Yeah, no, great question. So the way this actually came to be is I had been serving as the board chair for the past two years, and I've actually been on the board for five years. So when our recently retired executive director announced that he was going to step down, the question came, 'Okay, now what?'

'And who do we put into this role?' And I remember our board having the conversation around, you know what: We're actually at a pivotal moment wherein we need to even think about who we are and what we wanna be. So before we go and hire an executive director that doesn't have the skill sets that we need for that end state,

maybe we need to think about this in an interim kind of way. And because I was the board chair, I had, you know, left my position at Dress for Success. It was the natural step for me to kind of step into this interim role and figure out what makes sense. So as we're going through this process, we're gonna make a determination around.

Who are we? What's our agenda moving forward? Who is the right person to be the executive director? It could be me, it could be someone else on the board. It could be that we go on a search. It's all gonna depend on where we land with our end state and the skill sets needed to fulfill that space.

The really neat thing about this, too, is we have a very strong executive committee of our board. So now that executive committee oversees me, so I'm not overseeing myself.

Okay. It would be a nice gig, if you could get that.. 

But no, that is not the case. So it's actually ironic. Just last week, I had to go sit with my executive committee and talk to them about my first eight weeks, what I've been up to, you know, what I'm uncovering, what my thoughts are. And it was really neat because they shared feedback with me.

They shared thoughts with me and perspectives that are gonna continue to shape and refine. The way I'm doing what I do and ultimately what we decide to do as an organization with the path forward. So it's been really, really neat to go through this experience in this way because I was concerned about how that was all going to work out.

But having the executive committee has really given us a nice cushion for the governance that we need in this awkward moment when I'm kind of sitting half in one seat and half in another seat.

Right. Well, I guess it's not that unusual because usually it's chief executives are part of the board, so that is sort of the, the usual governance and being the kind of person you are that welcomes feedback. How am I hitting the mark? Am I missing anything?

So that makes perfect sense that you have that relationship with your executive it's a good group. 

Yeah, this is, this is awesome. I love it. But now I'm gonna shift gears a little bit. So you and I have something in common: We're both boy moms, um, which I guess now we have to say men. I raised thr ee men, and you have, too. I heard a little something about one of your boys. A little birdie told me that he did something pretty phenomenal while he was at college. So, do you mind sharing? 

My God, I'm happy to. And just a side note, they have frequently corrected me in their status as men. So if they listen to this, yes, you guys are my young men. Um, but yes.

I have, as you stated, my three young adult men and my youngest son, he actually just turned 24 this week. He graduated from Yale in December.

He played football at Yale. He was a wide receiver and he was also the President of the Student Athlete Committee at Yale. And one of the things he discovered while he was  there, and actually he discovered it in his, I think first or second year, the football team had continued to win the Ivy League championships, and even though they won the championships, other colleges that were winning their division's championships were going off to the playoffs, the FCS playoffs, but Yale was not.

They're like, well, wait a minute. Why are these other D1 schools going off to the FCS playoffs and we're done? And he discovered that there was an old rule on the books wherein the Ivies were prohibited from going into that final level of the playoffs. And 

Wow 

Mason raised this topic to the SAC committee.

And they were, they all were kind of like scratching their head going, well, why can't we be there? Like we keep beating out all of our competitors. Let's go for it. So he put his head down and he wrote a proposal to reverse that rule, and he engaged the members of the SAC committee to work with him on this.

And I will never forget him coming home, telling me that he was working on this proposal. I didn't really quite understand what it was. Then he was kind of lobbying it. I use air quotes. He was lobbying across the Ivy Leagues. He was talking to presidents at the different Ivy League schools about this. Uh, 

Wow. 

He went to Indianapolis and spoke on it.

And the next thing I know, I will never forget, I was commuting into the city one day for work and I got a call from someone from one of the sports newspapers that I knew, and he goes, 'Hey, um, your son is in the news.' I was like, what? Like, what did he do? And the gentleman I was speaking to said, 'Well, I just saw an article that said the Ivy League rule has been overturned and that the Ivy Leagues will now be able to compete in the FCS championships.'

And it was, I mean, you talk about a proud mother moment. I nearly, like, fainted in the middle of Fifth Avenue as I was walking down the street. But what was even more amazing was the rule was overturned. The Ivys are now in, and Yale, this past year, went on to yet again achieve their third Ivy League win for football.

They went into the FCS championship, they won their first game, and now I have goosebumps because they came really, really close to taking out Montana, who won the ultimate entire FCS championship and is the top school in the league. F ive more minutes in that game, and we could have actually taken them out.

So it was to, to see that and to know that it was because of an idea and a vision, that this young man had, my son and his colleagues, that this was able to happen, and I actually told him, I said, Mason, you've actually planted a tree that you have no idea how big that tree may even grow. So I'm proud of him and I'm really excited to see what the Ivies do with this opportunity now as they move forward.

And that's just incredible because to achieve that kind of a result at such a young age, and a lot of times people don't take people seriously when they're a certain age. They're still in college, you know, whatever it is. But to be able to spearhead that and really move it along, the process, to finally, it's a huge change in collegiate sports.

So I, I don't blame you for being a proud mother; I would be, too. And, you know, so do you think he was listening or observing through some of your career and your leadership skills and did you think that made an impact? 

Yeah, I  definitely do. I mean some might say he was cursed, but he has two parents who are very driven, very hardworking, you know, like just driven individuals. My husband, I think , you know, this Michael sits on the federal bench. You know, we met in law school and we have always, always poured into the boys around hard work, dedication, commitment, and speaking up and standing up for what you believe in. We've also spent a lot of time helping them understand the importance of connecting dots, talking to people, understanding points of view, you know, advocating for a position. So watching him go through this process. And I'm literally having goosebump moments again because it's like he employed all of those things he learned from us, right?

Like he, he had an idea. He had a thought around, 'Hey, why is this?' He asked the [00:32:00] questions. He talked to his colleagues on the committee. They agreed, alright, we need to do something with this. And then they collaborated in a way that we've always said, you collaborate. And then he socialized the idea with all the decision-makers.

Right. 

He did all of the things. We have been trying to impress upon our young men for their entire life. And I saw it come through right in front of my very eyes. I mean, it's just beautiful to watch. He's stubborn as hell, just like me and Mike. But he's got all the good stuff, too, so it, it all works out.

Yeah.

Maybe we'll just call it tenacity. We won't call it stubbornness. You know, there's nothing more rewarding than number one, seeing your son or daughter succeed and be passionate about something. And, then to see that they somehow have learned some of the lessons that you wanted to teach without, you know, necessarily beating 'em over the head.

Like, you must pay attention, you know, but they sort of absorb it by being surrounded by it. And it's, it's a really neat thing when that happens. 

Absolutely. 

Great. So congrats to 

Thank you. 

Thank you.

And my prediction is we're just gonna see a lot more from your son, and I can't wait to see what new challenges he gets into. So yeah, I think that's neat. So, as we close today, since we did talk about sort of the next generation a little bit, what words of wisdom would you impart to our next generation of leaders? What do you think would resonate with them and be really meaningful for them to incorporate going forward?

So I have a lot of ideas on this one, but the one that comes to me straight away, is to avoid the temptation to take shortcuts. And I say that because we live in a world right now where it's really easy to take a shortcut. I mean, you think about the advent of AI. 

Right. 

I mean, even when you think about writing a paper or preparing to give a speech or whatever the thing is, you can just plop the idea in AI, and it gives you the answer.

You're preparing for an exam and you want, you know, a, an outline for the exam. You could ask AI to write your outline when in fact, if you take the time to write your own outline, do your own research, t he learnings may actually stick with you in a more thoughtful and permanent way than you just learning it for purposes of the exam, if that makes sense. 

No, that does, that makes total 

Yeah, so I'm thinking about like that. And it's funny 'cause me and the guys have been having that conversation lately around their experiences with AI and, you know, do we trust it? Do we not trust it? How much due diligence are we gonna do around it? And it made me realize that more so than ever, with the cell phones and the technology and the AI, it's really easy for the next generation to do what used to take us hours to do in five minutes.

And I think, I mean, it's great to save time, but in saving that time, what are you giving up?

Right. And I've been dabbling with it too. And it can't replace your critical thinking. I mean you have to sort of spot the issue. So, if you don't flex that muscle, do you lose it then? Do you lose that analytical ability? So I think your message is very on point. That you really can't take shortcuts. And I worry about people losing their genuine voice, you know, people have different writing styles, different ways of expressing themselves. I took English as a minor. I just loved reading and wonderful books of prose, even poetry.

And so I worry about that aspect of it because you can use AI to write your article or start your brief or whatever. But it's funny we were laughing about it the other day. My husband and I were sharing with the guys how back in the day we used maps when we went somewhere 

Right.

I actually used to love looking at a map, trying to figure out where I was going, and then getting there going, wow.

Like, I did that. Like I figured it out. 

The fun is gone. It's like you just plug it in and hope that it's taking you the right direction. And the other one we talked about and we kind of chuckled about is phone numbers. I used to know everyone's phone number. If I lost my phone, I wouldn't know how to get in touch with anybody.

I barely can remember my son's phone numbers and my husband's phone number, let alone anybody else. So the shortcut part is deep and we laugh about it all the time. We all challenge each other. Let's remember our phone numbers. Let's try to memorize everybody's social security number in case anybody else forgets it and then well, you know, the map thing too is I remember maps and I remember when we used to go to trips. Some organization would send you these trip books, and it was like pages and pages and you had to turn, but a couple of times I've gotten stuck on GPS somewhere and no cell service.

So your GPS didn't work and then you're like, what do I do now? I have no idea where I am. There's no map. 

That's right. 

There's nothing. So it's good to, it's good to have skills. 

Avoiding all the shortcuts sometimes.

Well, thanks so much for joining today. I really had a good time talking about all of this. Loved hearing about your son and also the advice you have for our next generation. You've been incredibly generous with your time, and I really appreciate it, Michele. 

Thanks, Vanessa. It's fun to be here. Thanks for having me.

Of course, and I wish you so much success in your new mission and I will wait to see what you post on LinkedIn about it and all the great things you'll do there. 

Thanks. 

Wonderful. 

This podcast is intended for general informational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice or a solicitation to provide legal services. The information in this podcast is not intended to create and receipt of it does not constitute a lawyer client relationship. Listeners should not act upon this information without seeking professional legal counsel. The views and opinions expressed in the podcast represent those of the individual speaker only and are not necessarily the views of Clark Hill PLC.