“Inside the System”: A Black Federal Worker on Trump, DEI Backlash, Voting & “White Pomposity”

What happens when a career federal public servant spends decades working across administrations—and then lives through the Trump era from the inside?

In this episode of Behind the Story, Jelani sits down with Deric A. Gilliard, author of The Longest Four Years of My Life, for a candid, wide-ranging conversation on leadership, courage, and the price of telling the truth inside big institutions.

We unpack:

• Why “Stand Your Ground” is not courage—and how fear + power shape policing and justice
• Deric’s concept of “white pomposity,” and what it reveals about hierarchy, entitlement, and social order
• The opioid crisis vs. the crack era: who gets empathy, who gets punished, and how narratives get weaponized
• Immigration + UACs (unaccompanied children): what the public misses—and what moral injury looks like up close
• Voting rights and voter suppression—and why Deric believes civic action starts with the basics: vote, call, write, organize
  

This conversation lands in the middle of today’s biggest debates—DEI backlash , mail-in voting fights , and new pushes around voter eligibility restrictions —but stays grounded in lived experience, history, and practical leadership.

🎧 Listen now and share your biggest takeaway.

Transcript

speaker-0: Stand your ground. How about, does anybody stand their ground without a weapon? I want to stand without a weapon. Then tell me that you're courageous. This whole stand your ground thing, no, stand your ground when you have a gun, that's not standing your ground. Now you've got an advantage. How about stand your ground when it's even? You have nothing, he has nothing. Now let me see you stand your ground. Again, goes back to fear, goes back to...

speaker-1: That's right, that's right. out.

speaker-0: the prejudice of what they perceive as of black people. ⁓

speaker-1: you

speaker-0: It's 80 degrees, it's quite warm and it's it's very funny. But, you know, speaking of the Panama Canal, you said they did sell the Panama Canal and they're trying to get it back. You know, they're trying to get it back. You know, one of the things about, about the president that, and I'll be very candid and upfront, I'm not a supporter. I didn't vote for him. I didn't vote for Kamala either, just to be completely clear. But he says what you would think are quite far-fetched things. But. They're not, they're just far-fetched because of how he phrases it. Some of them anyway. So like we were just talking about earlier, talking about him wanting to purchase in Greenland when he purchased, and the reason I'm American is because America purchased the Virgin Islands in 1917 from Denmark. But you make the point that are we not past that? It would seem as though it falls into his thinking of America great again. Because which America is he talking about? He's probably talking about the America that used to purchase islands and people.

speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. No, there's no doubt about it. And I think in some ways he it's like who was it that said might makes right. And so he feels like we're the greatest country in the world. And if we want it, we need it. We should take it. But you notice when we talked about Greenland in the end, he backed off. But Greenland is a white country, you know, But he's

speaker-0: back or did he just take did he back off or did he just table it publicly we don't know whether or not he really backed off well

speaker-1: Well, I'm not saying that he won't revisit it, but he didn't table the rest of them publicly. He hasn't tabled, look what he's doing now in Iran. We know what he just did ⁓ in Venezuela. We hear he has eyes on Niger because of their rare minerals. Cuba, they're putting the squeeze right. All of those are countries of people of color. Now, he hasn't tabled any of those discussions. So that's my concern, you know, in this.

speaker-0: You know, something you talk about in your book, The Longest Four Years of Your Life, you talked about the comment where he talked about, don't want people from these shit hole, that's right, We want more people from like the Nordic countries, the white European countries. You know, the interesting thing about that is when I heard that being somebody that's lived in Europe and have been to those countries, is he so self-centered to think that those people don't want to come to America. A lot of them don't, you know, so this concept of That's what we want, but they don't necessarily want us because we consider ourselves the best thing going, land at the free and so forth and so on, all that sort of thing. But those people that live in those countries, they're quite content with what they've got with their quote unquote, holistic medicine and things. They're quite content. They don't want his view of what he think America is.

speaker-1: No, I absolutely agree. And especially now. I mean, you know, there's a book way back when I was young, so you probably weren't here, it's called The Ugly American. there's this, and you probably remember when I talked about white pomposity, there's this arrogance, this American arrogance, this self-made excellence. And some of it has value, but again, you look at the fact that the slave trade, the slavery built this country, quite honestly. Yes, of course From rice to cotton to, mean, that was, and so you hear a lot of, you know, Anglos who will tell you that, you know, all of this that they have and all of this they acquired, they did it because of their brilliance, their work ethic and all that. But so much of it was handed down to them. It was inherited and it was inherited on the backs of black people, primarily. quite honestly.

speaker-0: agree with you. Let's get into the book a bit, you know, the longest four years of your life. If I had to summarize, and I've been it cover to cover, I skimmed it, and then I went back to it because the introduction had so much. But if I had to summarize your personal reason for writing the longest four years of your life, what would

speaker-1: So, and you know, I wrote a previous book and when I wrote my previous book after working in Dr. King's organization and meeting these people who did all they did and invested all they did, understanding that they weren't doing it for them. They were doing it for their children's children. And this was the towards the passage of the Civil Rights Act, 64, Voting Rights Act of 65. To me, that was a great privilege. for me to have the opportunity to give something back to some people who had given so much to me. See what saying? So I was, I loved that privilege and honor. This, writing this book grieved me deeply and it grieved me because he helped further take away some of my confidence in this country, some of my belief in this country, my hope for this country. I think he shattered, least for my lifetime and maybe for generations to come, what this country purports to represent, what it says it is, what it says it's about. And so I thought it was critical that there be a record from inside about how his policies, his rhetoric, impacted Americans, how it impacted people across the world, their perception of this country, their feelings with this country. so particularly, you know, when you think about HHS, where I worked for those last five presidents, starting with Clinton in 98 through the first two years of the Biden administration, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, I would say the three critical issues of the last 15 years. Number one is immigration. Maybe it's not number one, but probably it is. So we did not separate children for their families at the border from their parents, but we were responsible for their care. And so we had a piece of that and that was for the Office of Public Health. And so that... And some people from my office and people in the offices I represented across the country were dispatched to these places. And I was very thankful I was able to not go. And I had to, you know, because it was the middle of COVID and stuff. because I was ashamed of my country at that point in time and my government, the government that I worked for represented. And that was maybe the first time in my 25 years and the only time that I really felt that way. But... I thought as a historian, as an activist, as a person who is follows this country and believes in this country and is deeply invested in this country. My father and his six brothers all served, my grandfather and my great grandfather served. You know, I believe in this country, but I think you have to be believing in it enough to challenge it when it's wrong. So I want down the road. Now, I think at Kamala I, you know, my book would be in... history departments, colleges all over the country, social science departments, political science departments, health policy departments. But of course, it's nowhere now because these people are all afraid to, if they bring in, if they teach it, like gender studies, you know, and I'm basically a conservative person, honestly. I understand a lot of those arguments against certain things, but I think that everybody should be respected, should... have an opportunity to earn a living. Nobody should be discriminated against, I don't believe personally. But so I thought it was important that there be a history, that there be a record of how, and not in the DC bubble, because tons of people have written who worked in DC and worked in these high political offices. I was just a career servant. So I was in the Mississippi Delta. I was in the coal mining country of Kentucky. I was in South Florida, which is super, super diverse. I was all these places and I was interacting with these people who were impacted by his policies around COVID, which, you know, he said is just going to disappear and, know, he didn't treat it seriously. His policies around the Affordable Care Act, which he tried in court over 70 times to replace and repeal. And so I met people who, I know people who made deathbed and you heard, you read some of these deathbed confessions about how they had been duped and they wished that they would have listened to the doctors and not listened to Donald Trump. So I said, this is important. Sometime, at some point, people will go back and say, wow, this is that history. And I never knew this. I never was exposed to this. This is how it impacted people. So yes, COVID, the Affordable Care Act. and immigration, and then more on another side, not the healthcare side, but as a person, particularly as a person of color in this country, as a black person. His rhetoric against the Black Lives Matter, the justice marches, after George Floyd was executed, Breonna Taylor, all of these people, Ahmaud Arbery, and his rhetoric was so caustic and divisive that I said, wow, you know, even, I mean, George Wallace wasn't that bad. He wasn't president, but we've never had an American president, again, in my lifetime. I'm 71 years old now. That was so, he said, rough them up. When you rest these people, rough them up. Treat them badly. I mean, and so his rhetoric, and that's the reason I also called him, as you know, the divider in chief, because there's nothing unifying about this man. And I said, Well, at least we go back here someday. I pray that we don't. I want people to at least be able to say, well, wow, this is who we elected. This is who we thought we were elected. Not me, of course. And this is what we got. And if we do this again, it will be, I don't know, it will be devastating. I still wake up with nightmares because I remember on January when the Capitol was overrun and I'm sitting there saying, okay, this isn't real. I pinched myself, I slapped myself a couple of times. I said, this is not happening in America. So I don't know. I think that we're at this Kairos moment in our history. And I thought that as a historian, as somebody inside that government, as somebody who had worked for four other presidents, that it was imperative that I tell this story. And that's why...

speaker-0: You know, you know, when I, I'm a fan of history and I read lots of history. ⁓ and I would say when I think about this time that we're living in, we won't be alive to see it, but this is going to just look like a brief blip in the history of America to where we did, we digressed for just a bit. And then we kept this, the ideal of what America is supposed to be going forward. think that's what this is going to look like from a historical perspective. When you look back. say 50, a hundred years. now it's going to be, wow, that eight years in America, we sort of went to the left and then we got back on track. And sometimes that's needed in order to improve things. Things have to really degenerate and get bad, but things to improve. And for me personally, I am not surprised by anything I'm seeing. And the reason why I'm not surprised, I'm surprised by people who say they're surprised. both from the people who supported him and the people who did not. Because for me, one thing I'm thankful about him for is he's what Deshepar calls an honest liar. He just tells you. So if you pay attention, why would you be surprised? Everything he's doing, he's...

speaker-1: Absolutely.

speaker-0: So why are you surprised? I'm confused by the people who are surprised. I'm not surprised by anything. He always goes back on his word. So if he says one thing and does another, why are you surprised? He always did that. Even when he was a business person and you know, developing real estate, he says he'll pay contractors, he agreed to a deal and then he said, no, I'm not going to pay you sue me. It'll cost you more if you just just take what I'm offering you anyway. anything about him, I'm not surprised. I'm actually painfully surprised by the people that go, I didn't think he was going to do this. Then what were you listening to? Now to be fair, because I know the people listening to this are probably going to go about who he ran against. I'm not saying she would have been better that we can argue on that. I think she would have been bad, but in a different way. I don't think she would she would have been bad in certain things. And I can go through the list in my opinion, of why she also would have been bad. But She would have been bad in different ways. Something seen that struck me in the book that I really appreciated was this. You caught out the things that you saw that were problem, but you also gave him credit for certain things that were, that worked out. You know, some people can argue that that was, it was probably accidental, we'll leave that alone. But that's one of the things I appreciate that it wasn't so biased to where you were just talking about all the bad things that happened in the Trump administration. That you worked in, you were talking about things that worked out good that were happening. You know, he took over from Barack Obama and had a really good economy and the economy was going well. You you talked about that. You talked about what they did on trafficking. You talked about the impact they tried to have on the opioid pandemic, but you brought up a point in that conversation. that I have always thought about, which was this. When I first came to the United States as a young teenager, it was towards the tail end of the crack epidemic. I don't remember this attention on the crack epidemic. I remember your fault. I remember the sentiment was just say no. I remember the sentiment of it was sort of those people that had the crack problem. I don't remember this crack being a disease. But all of a sudden, the opioid pandemic is a disease. And you talked about that in your book, and I really, really appreciated that. How would you phrase the media bias and the misinformation? Because in your book, you describe how the narratives can actually fuel harm. What's your framework for how you separate the signal from the noise?

speaker-1: You know, that whole, the opioid epidemic actually hit really close to home, even for me. So I attended church in downtown Atlanta in a neighborhood that was ravaged by the crack epidemic. In fact, Gladys Knight grew up in that neighborhood and it's named after the first mayor of Atlanta who was the slave owner. It's called English Avenue. And one morning, four people OD'd. in that little neighborhood, including one of our church members on opioids. so Jerome Adams, who you heard me talk about, the Surgeon General, I call him, you know, was in fact the only, I thought, honest Black broker in the Trump administration. In fact, and they put him on the shelf when he said that, if we aren't careful, we're going to be attacking Italy on steroids, when he was talking about the, you know, pandemic and how bad it was going to get when we started losing over a thousand people a day. so, but he came to that and he came there and I was able to be instrumental in putting together a group of people to hear him talk about that epidemic. But yeah, they have, paid much greater attention to that epidemic because the crack epidemic was, was black and brown people were being impacted, poor people. Whereas, you know, the disparities in sentencing were people with powdered cocaine in the boardrooms and in the bathrooms. Remember, they found some in the White House a few years ago. I don't know if you remember that. In the bathroom, somebody had left it. And so, ⁓ I don't how did they get in there with that? So I'm saying it's treated very, very differently because this was a drug that impacted primarily white people. Now that's... started to shift some over time, but that's the issue, you know? And largely, you know, I believe his thing is make America white again, quite honestly. He won't quite say that. I wish he would just go ahead and say it because he's just, he is very, so honest about everything else. He doesn't pull punches, he tells you. And I know a lot of people say that. In fact, I was reading, somebody said, you you read these people's comments, although a lot of them are starting to have by-hersher remorse right now, right? Of course, but what he, the guy says, well, you know, we didn't, we didn't elect him to be a nice guy. We elected him to get excrement done. And, you know, what can I say about that?

speaker-0: Yeah. You know, I had this, I have this thought about, about the whole Trump, people who support him. And I say to my friends privately, say, you know, obviously I'm going to say it publicly now. The same reason Barack Obama got elected is the same reason Trump got elected. People are rightfully sick and tired of the establishment. And even though Barack Obama was a senator, he was the first term senator, he really wasn't a career Washington insider. He was sort of viewed from the outside and he was coming with a different approach. Change, I'm going to go in there and change, yada, yada, whatnot. And Trump had the same thing in a different way. I'm coming in, drain the swamp and the change. People are attracted to both figures, in my opinion, for the same principled reasons. They want something different from what we've been getting. But my argument to to both people who support both of them is they may not be the ones to give you what you want. They can sell you on they are the ones. And I think that's one of the most brilliant things Trump did. He sold people on he was the one to do it. But I don't think he was because I don't think he cares. You know how I viewed our president? I view our president as somebody that I've seen, I grew up with those type of people. They were on the outside. Their parents had money. but they were not anything impressive without what their parents had. They weren't the brightest in school, he wasn't, but they always criticized people for their intellect. The really intelligent people never do that. That's the one key tell for me. And if people are listening, they should realize a smart person never calls other people stupid, never, ever. So at any time somebody is commenting on your intellect, they're really telling about themselves. That's the first thing. Trump wanted to be in the in-crowd, in the clique. That's why he talks about this person is from central casting. Listen to the wordings that what he says and his philosophy of where he comes from. ⁓ He always wanted to be in the media and be in the front on page six, because, you know, pre-internet and whatnot. That was his thing. ⁓ He's brilliant at manipulating the media and the messaging. He's very brilliant about that. But I go back to, I'm going to reflect your memory on chapter nine in your book, where you talked about unequal injustice. And you were talking of the conversation surrounding when Brett Kavanaugh was nominated for the Supreme Court. The thing came out about what he did when he was younger with sexual assault and whatnot. And Trump having the comments of, ⁓ young people, young men are having a hard time and whatnot. And you connected that. And I think rightfully to why the reason I could never support him and I never did to what he did around the central park five, because I remember that so vividly because that occurred when I first came to the United States as a young child. And I'm seeing this person who I didn't know anything about Donald Trump talking about killing these five kids that look like me. was my first impression. of this person. And from that moment to this, I just was never in his camp no matter what he did, because you didn't even know whether or not they were innocent or guilty. This was before the trial. He was talking about bring back the death penalty, kill them. He took out a page in the newspaper. People may not remember. I remember because this was my life, my reality. He took out a page in the newspaper saying the death penalty to kill them. Now,

speaker-1: New York Times. That's right.

speaker-0: I still like to say this, you would think after, let's just give him the benefit of the doubt that he thought they committed this heinous crime and whatnot. And that's what his belief. When the truth came out that it was not them, indisputable truth, proving that it was not them, you would think this person would have the character to say, you know what? I jumped the gun. I'm wrong. Sorry. Nothing. He continually continuously sorry, doubles down on the mistakes that he's made. And when I think about somebody like that giving you, and I mean you specifically there because you are federal employee, that person giving you the marching papers and the marching orders to carry out your job as your boss, how do you do that? You talk about it in the book, how you navigate, tell me about that, how do you do it?

speaker-1: Yeah, it was, you know, I had to make a choice. You know, my colleague who they brought in specifically when we were establishing Obamacare and, know, and again in our eight states in the Southeast, which is the largest region in the country, seven of the governors said they wanted nothing to do with it. And so that left it up to us. We had to go and do that work. so after, when it looked like Trump was going to be elected, My colleague who had come in from Denver, she wrote for the Denver Post and the Dallas Morning News. She said, I'm out of here. I can't do this. Now, I would have liked to have left too, but on the other hand, I thought that it was important that somebody stay who could help the people who needed the help, who, quite honestly, that administration and that president and that secretary had no interest in helping. So that's why I stayed. I stayed because I felt an obligation to continue to do my job, even in the light of the adversity, the oppressive and all the lies, honestly. And this was an administration that wanted to take back the healthcare that 20 million people had achieved through the Affordable Care Act. And because they felt like that, and I mean, look at today, think about today. He says he wants to cut back all these things today from Social Security, from Medicare, from SNAP benefits, from health insurance, so that he can wage this war. That's what he wants to do. So between waging this war and giving these just crushing tax cuts to his billionaire buddies. So in that instance, it's just as you say, this is the first president that I, in my lifetime, certainly since I've been paying attention, is least the last 50 years now, who I could truly say, I believe absolutely cares nothing about this country. He cares about himself, maybe his family, and... other people that are loyal to him. If they're loyal to him, he will help you. And so I just thought, because again, and I agree, 100 years from now, they'll look back at this as an aberration, but man, you won't ever see it that way, I don't think, because you're old enough that, you know, I pray you don't ever see this again. But we will, if we survive, you know, if we don't get this Armageddon World War III that... Dude ranch may push us into or somebody else. Yeah, you're right. It will be an aberration. But yeah, I just felt like because so much I think of it, Jelani, is because of the people I was mentored by in Dr. King's organization. Like my boss, Joe Lowry, who co-founded the organization with him, who Obama, he was the first one to come out for Obama. He said, so all these other people said, you know, from Jesse Jackson to... Everybody you can think of, they were lining up behind Hillary because she had paid her dues. Brilliant woman, you know, she had paid her dues, but he said, see something special about that guy. So he went out, he endorsed him, he campaigned for him hard. And so when Obama was inaugurated, he did the benediction at his funeral. I'm sorry, as his inauguration. And he raised hell because that's what he does. But I have a picture of him taken at Tyler Perry Studios. where Obama is on one knee paying homage, holding Joe Lowry's hand and looking up and paying homage to him because of the impact he made on his election. So people like that, people like C.T. Vivian, people like James Lawson, John Lewis, people that I had a lot of exposure to, and I saw their commitment to justice. And so I knew that Honestly, you know, I'm a believer, I'm a Christian. God had put me in that place at that particular time, because a lot of times I said, why me? Why me? I don't really want to do this, but I felt like I needed to do it. I was called to do it, and that's why I stayed there and did all that I could. I danced on that line and several times almost got fired, got called to the carpet, was under, I just, I may have mentioned this. white lady in the administration, she did what I did in DC, of course, at a higher level. She did it in the HHS headquarters. And she said to friend of, well, several people at a lunch, she said, I don't like that, Derek. He's still out there pushing the Obama agenda. But I never did anything that was not still the law. The law was that Obamacare was still in place. And even though you told us we couldn't go help people anymore, we couldn't calls with people to where we could help them work out their issues. The people were getting paid by our government, the navigators, the health insurance, all the people at the federally qualified health centers, all the people who did it because they weren't getting paid, but they knew that their people needed help. My brother's keeper, like. Mississippi Health Advocacy Program, people like the Children's Defense Fund. So I said I would be derelict in my duty if I did not do everything I could to help these people, help the people in our country who needed help, and to also be able to tell the truth when I could. But if they sent me something that I honestly knew was not factual, And this was the grieving part. I still sent it out. Now, I never stood in front of a microphone and said, this is true. But they said, you disseminate this to these people. And then I was happy when I got pushback about it, which I never got in any other administration. From white Republicans.

speaker-0: I saw that in your book there would be certain people that would push back and say, hey, this is complete falsehood. We're not going to publish this. We're not going to report on this because this is a complete falsehood. So at least there was some.

speaker-1: That helped, that gave me the fuel to go on, because it gave me a little hope that there was some decency out there.

speaker-0: Was that affecting your reputation because, you know, the president didn't send it, you sent it. Were they looking at you and thinking, Derek, what in the world?

speaker-1: Like, I know there were people that I lost trust with, who people did not trust me, who I worked with for 15 and 20 years, and that was problematic.

speaker-0: You would think they would understand you didn't have a choice. You're not the HSS. You're not making the policy. You're just a person having to that part of the job.

speaker-1: And afterwards, you know, as time went on, I think a lot of that did get better. But I think that I couldn't actually blame the ones, at least in that moment, who saw me as perhaps the enemy or at least in the enemy's camp. But at the same time, I got people who wrote me or called me and said, Derek, listen, I know you are in this untenable position and I want to thank you for doing what you can. with what you have to work with. And so that was really helpful to me. It kept me going. recognized, yeah, they recognized the place because at least they knew if they picked up their phone and called me and wanted to talk about it, I could do that. I just couldn't do stuff publicly and I couldn't go and support them. Like they would have this big rollout and the mayor would be there. They may have a congressman there. They may have a senator there.

speaker-0: because they're

speaker-1: And so we did that all the time, but they told, no, you're not going out helping anybody around the Affordable Care Act. And so that was kind of devastating, because again, it was the law of the land.

speaker-0: Right. Derek, let me put a thoughtfully thought out there and I want you to comment on it. See, there are the people that would say, you should just resign. That's what people of principle would do. You're in a position where you're having to do something that you completely disagree with. It's against your beliefs. It's probably immoral. It borders in a gray area, whether it's legal or not. And you should stick to your principles and just resign. I'm more forgiving than that because, you know, this is your job. You know, yes, it's public service, but it's still your job in that this is how you are supporting your family and doing what you do. So I'm more forgiving from that perspective where I don't think you should resign. But what do you say to those people that said, Hey, this is against everything you stood for with the surgeon leadership, public Christian conference that you work with the Dr. King and the legacy that you come from. This goes, this is antithetical to everything that you stand for as a person there. How can you stay in this? What do you say to those people?

speaker-1: So I actually even had somebody in my family ask me, I feel like a sellout? Okay, but I would say that that's exactly why I stayed. Okay, I stayed because of, so when I was with the SELC and all the times before, I'm telling you, we almost never won anything. pushed and pushed and pushed and campaign and campaign and campaign and enrolled, did motor voter enrollment. We did all this stuff and the victories might be one or two out of a hundred. But we knew again that it was the right thing to do. So I believed that for two reasons. And again, it's funny, like when I went to the SCLC, I had no thoughts of right. And I never had a thought of writing a book until Trump came along, but I thought that history needed this record. And I didn't stay because of that, but I thought that I felt because I had spent time and been mentored by these people who worked directly with Dr. King, who had given so much, and I asked, and then they always told me, you know, no, you don't understand. was... the greatest privilege of my life to be part of this movement that tore down the cotton curtain. I said, well, there's no privilege here, but because you did that, I am obligated to do all I can within this jacked up system to help the people out there. And I'm going to take some beatings. I'm going to take some shots to the gut and I'm going to be vilified. And I'm no hero or anything, because guess what? Nobody's trying to kill me. Nobody's, no. You know, and I'm so far below the radar at this point in time, and especially now that Margie Taylor Greene and Tucker Carlson and all these other people, Joe Rogan are taking shots at them. I'm totally irrelevant, but because I just thought that it was important to help where I could, and I'm used to being an underdog. I'm used to working against odds that are untenable, but... You know, that's the life of being a black person born in this country, quite honestly. You're always gonna be, not by everybody, but you you start down here where everybody else is up here. And you're always gonna have to work harder. You're gonna always have to keep your nose cleaner. You're always gonna have to be more, it's more important that you, you know, you be on time. You touch all the, you're not gonna get the grace that little white Johnny next door is gonna get when the cop pulls you over. Just like the dude that killed the, I don't remember how many it was, in Charleston at Mother Emanuel's church, and then the cop stopped and let him, he said he was hungry and they took him to McDonald's or wherever it was. That ain't gonna happen to us. And so that's how I had to raise my children. And because I raised them, we raised our children that way and we taught them that way and we taught them that still the reason that you are under this gun is because you are feared and you're not feared because you're black. You're feared because you're great. You're feared because you are powerful and because you have withstood so much and still I rise. And so, yeah, that's so all of those things factored in. thought that I would be, for me, I would be a cower. and I would have spat in the face and on the graves of those people who I looked up to for me to leave, to cut tail and run because it was tough.

speaker-0: I want us to talk a bit about UACs. But before we talk about that, you just touched upon something. You mentioned Tucker and Marjorie and also Joe Rogan and how now based on what the president is doing, they're sort of, you know, saying uncomplimentary things about him. And even with them, I look at them and I think, what were you thinking? Those of us who didn't support him, this was clear to us that this is what would happen. Why did you supposedly, because Joe Rogan is a very smart person. I'm going to assume that the former congresswoman is a sensible person. She ran a business, know. Tucker is a brilliant person, whether you agree with him or not. If you listen to his takes on certain things, he's a brilliant person. How did you not see this is my question to them when it was so obvious. I'm looking at everything and I'm thinking like, that's what we were trying to tell you he would do. These are the things. So when I look at that, you know how I equate the people that support him and I'm going to get probably tons of criticism and comments about this and I don't care.

speaker-1: Welcome to my world.

speaker-0: It's sort of like the parents of the delinquent child. The parents of the delinquent child never want to admit that their child is a terror. Everybody in the village is telling them, your child is bullying everybody. No, no, he's just high strong. Your child is rude and disrespected. No, no, no, he's just very expressive. Your child is breaking and vandalizing our house. No, no, no, he's creative. Always making an excuse for the delinquent demon. That's how I look at the support, some of the supporters where it's you're making excuses for the delinquent person. And then you're surprised when they're delinquent. Like, wait, like in what world is this a surprise? Nothing is surprising to me. And that's when I look at them and think that's your judgment. You know, I'm going to have to look at you sideways when you recommend anything, because this was your judgment. Your judgment, you thought that was a good idea. And now you have buyers remorse, like people call it. No, no, no. That's your judgment. So I'm looking at you sideways about when you recommend things because it's record is not very good. So I just wanted to say, because you mentioned how they're contradicting him now as though they weren't the reason that we have the results that we currently do. but let's talk about.

speaker-1: I think that the benefits that they thought they were going to get would outweigh the... ⁓

speaker-0: But they sold themselves to the devil. They stole their soul. That's what I call the so-called Christians that said, this is a good idea. It's like, you sold your soul to the devil. He was like, the devil said, I'll give you this if you give me this. But yeah, but the UACs, and this is from chapter 12 of your book, the UAC. And this is a very serious thing. And that's the classification that they give to children, undocumented children that came to the US solo.

speaker-1: That's

speaker-0: And I've often had strong opinions about this, not very kind opinions, but very strong opinions about it. But I want you to talk about it from somebody that worked on it from the inside, because this goes back to the Bush administration. You were part of that administration. I want you to just give a historical, you know, synopsis of what was going on then to where it is now. And most importantly, in reading your book, we still don't know where they are, where they are.

speaker-1: Thousands are still missing. And so, who knows, right? And a lot of them, I'm sure, have ended up being trafficked, being, you know, just like the people who took that trek, a thousand mile trek, walking up to get here. You know, the desperation that people have to be part of this American dream, right? And so I think, yeah, to me, these are the vulnerable. In the Bush administration, I think it was Kosovo. because of the war over there. And so we were bringing people in that were refugees. And of course they were white and they were, and we welcomed them in, we processed them. A lot of them went to, I think right outside of Detroit, because there's huge populations there. And so our office, yeah, we have through our administration for children and families, I was able to spend time. down at the Atlanta airport, you know, the world's busiest airport, and we processed these people in, and, you know, they were grateful, and they... And so, yeah, there is that history, but the difference then was, you know, we were welcoming people, and I'm not saying that... Because, you know, they used to call Obama the deporter-in-chief. He had a reputation of being tough on, but I think there was a humanity there. Yeah, but there was a humanity to it that you can't see. I don't see any humanity.

speaker-0: I'm gonna push back on that classification, but I'll tell you why. tell you why. I'm not gonna, I'm gonna, I see it differently, not the humanity. I see it as following the law without all of the sensationalistic crap, like sending people with masks and siege and all this, all this reality show crap that you do not need because the law is on your side. And with all of that, with all the crap that we've seen in the last year, this administration still does not touch the Obama administration for amount of people being deported. And the message to me there is, you don't need all this crap. That tells me more about you and your thinking that you think you need to do it in this spectacle of a way. when it's not necessary to achieve the result, because we could look at the Obama administration that deported more people than this administration in the same amount of time. And one thing I want to mention to people who are progressive and liberal and whatnot, the same person that's the current czar was the same person that did it with Obama, Tom Homan. He worked for the Obama administration. Now, while people, they don't want to talk about it that a progressive or liberal or whatnot. But he worked in that administration and he wasn't part of any sensationalistic spectacle crap and they got the job done. So what that tells you is they want to have this mental on people. so I'm not saying it was, so that's what I'm saying. I wouldn't necessarily say it's this more humane. They just followed the law without all this extra crap.

speaker-1: Let's look then. I can give you some examples of the inhumanity though, where that...

speaker-0: Go for it. Because you're on the inside. it.

speaker-1: Absolutely. So you may remember they put balls with barbed wire in the Rio Grande in the Trump administration that people who were trying to cross over would get stuck on that barbed wire. That never happened during the Obama administration. I'm saying there is this mindset of bringing terror to people. And that's where the mass Just like the Klan back during the Klan days. They wore masks, right? They were shamed of what they did and who they were. Now, these people may not be shamed, but it's about protecting the identity. That's why I said initially they sent them to the airports.

speaker-0: Because they have to go back to their community. They don't want their neighbors to know that they're the ones on television, for example, hauling off a mother who never did commit a natural crime.

speaker-1: Yeah, so you're absolutely right. Obama followed the law and he, and even though, you you're right, the conservatives don't want to give him credit for that, but he did and the liberals and the progressives criticized him for that. But he didn't do it. He didn't ran and rave and call them rapists and thieves, right? So the rhetoric... Yes, he still deported him, but the rhetoric, he didn't dehumanize.

speaker-0: deported them. It is dehumidized.

speaker-1: He dehumanizes people and a person who will shoot will have his people, it's okay if his people shoot an unarmed white woman in the face and another guy with his hands up and then shoot him in the back. White people, these are white people they're executed. So if they'll do that to them, what will they do to you and me and these undocumented people? And that's why I'm saying. That's why it's a trickle now at the border, because they say, ⁓ man, we go over there, we're going to catch hell. We're catching hell over here, at least we understand this hell.

speaker-0: You know, it's interesting because I think about all of the activities that surround the ICE agents and what they're doing. And I think about how people interact with them. And I reflect back on stories and what I've read about the people from your generation in the sixties when they were protesting against civil rights and for civil rights and whatnot. And then I just think of the method. right now, it's not effective. You know, and I think part of the reason the method is not effective and you can speak about this much more eloquently than I can is that there isn't a central figure that we have galvanized about. Back in the sixties, whether we liked it or not, we had a few. You had Malcolm, depending on which way it went. My dad was on the Malcolm side and you had Martin. You you had, you had people that a centralized leader, whether they were one or a few, that people galvanized around with the methodology of the protesting to where now I can't even tell you what one of the protests, like what are you protesting for? So it sounds as though they're just yelling. At least back in the sixties in your generation, there were clear set of what we wanted. It's one of the reasons why I did not support the BLM movement. Why? Because Like what were you asking for? It's too general. Back in the sixties, your generation, you were in general, you had specific tenants, specific things that said, this is what we're marching for. This is what we want. So there was something to address, but there's to say, we're just marching for police brutality. We're just marching to protest against that. Okay, but what's the fix? What you actually protesting for? It just seems like it's all over the place. my question would be somewhat like you, Derek, when you see that, has your generation just, I don't want to say abdicated. I want to say, your generation that are still around, because you're still here, 71, but you're still here. Is your generation just saying, okay, it's for the young people to do it? Because I think we need that guidance of how to structure a protest. You talk about your work with the SCLC. Even though you lost every battle, you had a target. I don't feel like these protests have specific enough targets. It just seems like noise and it's hard to get behind it.

speaker-1: Yeah, couple of things on that. And I agree with you on a lot of that for sure. We didn't win, but you know what? When Biden was elected and John Ossoff and Raphael Warnock were elected, that was those seeds that were planted decades earlier. they finally, Stacey Abrams worked. Lots of other people, black voter movement here in Georgia. And I'm saying, so you... may not see a lot of this, but you understand it's the right thing to do and somebody, your children's children will see this. But we can't, if we take our hands off the plow, then it doesn't ever happen. So yeah, now you have this anti-figure. You have this anti-Dr. King, anti-Shirley Chisholm, anti-Malcolm in Donald Trump. And so you're right, that's why that pendulum swings like that. I do say this and yeah, cause Dr. King's movement. So we had the seven principles of non-violence. So there was this process before, and of course they were still committed to non-violence. There was all this non-violent training. You couldn't go out there with anything that was a weapon. You were committed to even taking blows, even taking the blow for your, the guy that you were, or the gal that you were with, leaning over them and covering their head while. you were beaten in the back and could be kicked or hit in head. And so there was that commitment. So today though, you hear about a march on social media and people come, they've had no training. There's no defined ethos. That's right. That's right. And I believe, Jelani and I say this all the time in my presentations, I believe this in all my heart and soul that,

speaker-0: organization.

speaker-1: In many ways, my generation abdicated our responsibilities to our children. ⁓ not just my generation, now the generation below us. And I think for my generation, I don't know if it was because we saw our parents marginalized. We saw them reduced to maybe they should have been a physicist or a doctor or an engineer, but you were directed to the trades. And nothing wrong with the trades, but I'm saying you should be able to do what you are able to do, right? And so, so many of us, we left the inner city, we left our old neighborhoods to get out into the burbs and out. And so, and I think when we left them, too many of us failed to make sure our children knew their history and understood their history. Because you know, the old saying, people who fails to remember their history is doomed to repeat it. And so, We're seeing that. And so that was really, we were really intentional in my house when we, when we work with our, it's particularly our sons, our two sons. Hey, if you get stopped by a car, hands 10 and two on the wheel, yes sir, no sir. I said, look, cause officer Tinsley, I am reaching as a paratrooper. You say officer Tinsley, I am reaching into my pocket to get my wallet. You know what saying? Cause I tell people, look, there's no excuse. for police brutality, for these killings of these unarmed black men and these police stops. Well, look, we can fight anything if we get you home. So we made sure our children, I had to sit down with my children, had to read, read, watch eyes on them. I had to read, write book reports on Marcus Garvey and all these other people. So they understood because I realized if I didn't send them out into the world equipped to know what... they were gonna encounter and to know who they were and whose they were, I would be derelict. And I think too many of my people, quite honestly, have been derelict. And that's why we find ourselves here. That's part of why we find ourselves here. And all these people who don't think it's important to vote. I said, look, I don't even say, I don't even care who you vote for. I really do care. But I'm saying, please vote because too much blood has been shed for you to have the right to vote. And so, I don't know, that's kind of where I come from.

speaker-0: You'll probably criticize me for how I vote, let me, let me give you some... But yeah, but let give you the historical context. So being born in St. Thomas and the Virgin Islands, we don't vote in the presidential elections. Normally, right? Right. And I, because I lived most of my life outside of the U.S., the first time I was, I was actually able to vote in a presidential election was in 2016.

speaker-1: But at least you voted.

speaker-0: And so I never voted for president Obama, never voted for, ⁓ for Bush or anything. Cause I was, I lived in Europe. And I, if you're not part of, if you're not a resident of a state in the U S like which state would I send my ballot to? So no way to vote mail in votes. So was really excited in 2016 for the first time I was going to get to vote in my life. And the choices for me were horrible. Cause here was somebody running that at the time I thought.

speaker-1: Hmm.

speaker-0: I'm not going to vote for the guy that wanted to kill the kids that were innocent in Central Park and this business guy that always files for bankruptcy. And I don't want to vote for Hillary. She just seems so entitled. Like it's my turn. Like that's not a selling point for me. I'm the first. Like none of the things people were saying for the selling point was a selling point for me. And I remember former speaker of the house, Congressman Ryan, and he said, I'm not voting for Trump. can't support him. He's not a Republican, but that does not mean I'm voting for Hillary either. And I thought, what are you going to do? And that's when I discovered you can write in somebody. So in 2016, I wrote in somebody. I wrote in somebody.

speaker-1: And believe it or not, I did too.

speaker-0: Oh, you did too? Okay. But I admittedly in 2020, I did vote for Biden and I had bias remorse based on what the Biden administration did with immigration, because it's not just about letting people in on the Southern border and that it's also, it's naive to not realize that people in the terrorists and people like that, who use that border to get in as well. So complete failure. when the Biden administration from that perspective. I had bias and most on, on, on that. And then in 2024, was another write in vote. couldn't do Kamala and definitely couldn't do Trump. So it was another write in vote as well. So I say that to say, you probably think for me, cause I've had friends say to me, that's not voting because you're not voting for one or the other. That's like, didn't vote that. That's what I had liberal friends tell me, but I'm a piece of that. Let's, I want to bring up something really important and connected to chapter 19 in your book, where you talk about being black or brown in America should not be a death sentence. I want to talk about that because I have a 13 year old son. He does not live in America. He lives in Europe. And, but every summer he spends in America. And I always heard, I'm always aware of when black parents have to tell. their black son, you know, have that conversation. I never had that conversation with my dad. It was not part of my upbringing. I grew up in the islands. I grew up in paradise. It was not part of my upbringing. So I never had that conversation with my dad or my mom. So I didn't really know how to have that conversation with my son. And I thought, do I need to? He's just visiting. Would there be a problem? I didn't know. And it was even more of a difficult choice for me to have to make because I didn't have that conversation going up. And I can tell you this, this may surprise you Derek, I've been to all 50 states in America. I've been to Hawaii as well. And when I say been to these states, I spent a couple of days in each state. That's like a year. I've been to every state in America. Never experienced racism. Okay. I've been to every country in Europe, but the exception of Belarus and Estonia. I've even been to Moscow. Never experienced racism. I've been to a bunch of Caribbean countries because when I was a child, my dad traveled. We were on the seaplane every weekend going to a different island, never experienced racism. So I did not know how to have that conversation with my son. But then I had a friend of mine who, and I'm going to name drop him, Malin Ali Bey. He's a Morris national and we know what that is. He's an alumnus of my school, University, St. John's University. And he hit me to something to where he showed me how I did experience racism. I didn't understand that was racism. Because my father's definition of racism was he said, is prejudice plus power. If the person has no power, they're not racist. They're just prejudice. They have to have the prejudice against a particular person based on their race and the power to enforce that prejudice. So someone at work could just not like you because you're black, but if they are not your boss, they're just prejudice. So that's how I looked at racism. You cannot like me if I'm black, but if you're not my boss, so you don't stop me from a job or stop me from doing something. then you're racist, you have no power, you're just prejudiced against a particular people. That's what my dad told me about racism. People gonna have their different approach and view of it, I'm just saying what mine was. But what Mereen educated me on was this, and this is how I realized I did experience racism. He said, Jelani, have you ever had somebody say to you, because he said, I know you, and in thinking of you, I know this has been said to you. Have you ever had somebody say to you, you're not like the regular black people I meet. I said, yeah. He said, that's racism. said, what do you mean? He said, they have a stereotypical view of what they think a black person, a black man should look like, sound like and behave. And because maybe because of where you grew up in the islands, you're not like that. Maybe because of your education level, you're not like that. You don't fit the stereotype they've got in their head of what a black person should be and look like. So they make that comment, you know. You speak really well for a black person. You don't look, he said, that's racism. And I realized it doesn't just have to be the N word and certain things. That's a part of a mess. People who say that sometimes are liberals, are progressive. They don't even realize they're making racist statements. So I still have to say, I didn't know how to have the conversation with my son. And he's 13 now, so this was last year when he was 12. And I was saying, well,

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: And I started bringing it up and I have to say thanks to the internet. He said, he said, dad, come on, really? I know how to do that. And he started going through the whole scenario and I'm thinking, in the hell? That's not even your life. How do you know all this stuff? You live in Eastern Europe. You don't even live like in the UK or someplace where it's, know, progressive or whatnot. You live in Eastern Europe. How do you even know this? was because of the internet. And he was explaining to me, dad, now I know how to act and this and that. And one thing Derek, and I'm bringing you in on this, my dad used to say to me, I think one of the reasons I never had negative interactions with police and law enforcement and whatnot, my dad told me two things about people like that. He said, here's the deal. Nothing you give to another man you lose. Always start giving respect. It doesn't diminish you as a person. It doesn't make you less that. Nothing you give to another man you lose. start with respect. He said to those people that act like that, they're cowards. They're actually afraid of you. Because person operating from a position of strength would never treat you like that. They would never shoot you 10 times when you're unarmed. That's fair. That's fair manifesting with hate. They're scared. That's fear and hate. So if you give them respect, and you set them at ease, you become the powerful one you become in control. of the situation and then just let the pride and the ego aside and you won't even have a problem. And I remember those words. That was my father's speech to me of having speech, which is much different than, you know, the call your hand on the wheel. He never told me any of our is not in those interaction because I was just a different person. And I just wonder when you talk about, you know, being black and brown in America should not be a death sentence. And you start off, you know, talking about what happened with the George Floyd case, what advice would you give to young people now that you can reflect on your career, reflect on what you saw on the inside in the George Floyd case? What does it sound like coming from you?

speaker-1: think that unfortunately there's a lot of structural and institutional racism in this country. I know a pastor who, black pastor, went to preach in Australia. And afterwards they came and somebody was saying, well, you know, I was expecting you to, because they'd seen a Jim Belushi movie. What was the name of that movie? We're doing back flips down the aisle in the church. They said, that's what we're expecting because People's perception of this country, in this country and across the world, is based on what they see, how black people are framed. So if black people are rapists and robbers and sexual predators, just like he's now framing, he framed Latinos, right? Latinos, I would guarantee you, Latino population. has a lower crime rate in this country. Because Muslim women coming over here just for an opportunity for a decent living than an average American. Yeah, yeah. So I'm just saying that I think though we have to be real with ourselves is that that is how, nobody comes over here to this country to be like black Americans. They don't. And you know something we should talk about? on another show at some point is the perception and the relationship, the way people, black people, most many black people, not, don't, I never want to say all, many black people from the continent, from Africa or from the islands, their perception of black Americans. And I think that it is not, very complimentary in many instances. Yeah, unfortunately. And I think it is a very different experience growing up in this country and being framed certain way. And again, knowing that your ancestors built the wealth of this country. And I understand that some of that goes also to the fact that, well, black people in this country, too many of them have taken on this mentality of the victim. So. But you can't lump everybody together and again, there's some rationale for all that. So that's, and I know I got off. It is, it is. ⁓

speaker-0: But it's an important topic. I want to chime in with something that it's one of the things that really saddens me is on how black people around the world view black Americans. And the reason it saddens me is because of how I grew up. My dad was, America would not call my dad black based on his heritage and his upbringing and his culture. But my dad said, no, I'm black and you are black. And he raised me that and he explained it to me and no, he passed away. He passed away. And I'll tell you about his background in a second, but what he used to say was part of the problem is thinking we're different. That's the first problem. And he was adamant about that. And then the other part of it is I've had people in America say to me, ⁓ you're not really black. And it hurts because I think, what are you, what are you talking about?

speaker-1: Is your dad still living? Hmm.

speaker-0: And I realized, I've come to realize they don't have the historical knowledge of self. They don't understand how everything is connected and just have to be to make peace with it. And my dad used to say, listen, the African brothers that are talking negatively about the black Americans, they just need to look at everything that the black American brothers have accomplished. Go back from even the pre-abolition to the abolition of slavery and look at Look at how the deck was so stacked against the black American brothers. Like that's what my father used to say, the black American brothers and look at everything that they were able to accomplish. And when I say brothers, I'm using it gender nuisance. Look at what black people were able to accomplish. Even with Jim Crow. Look at what black people were able to accomplish even pre 1964, the lack of civil rights.

speaker-1: Absolutely. Absolutely.

speaker-0: How dare you look down on those people? That's how my father talked about Black Americans. And the reason I say, for me, really saddens me and people don't consider me, they say, know, I've had a highly educated Black liberal woman say, you are not really Black American. You don't understand what it means to be Black American. And I'm thinking, I'm not insulted by it. I'm saddened by it because I think to myself, you are creating a division between us that's so stupid and not necessary. because I'm born on an island, I'm somehow not black. I'm not really black. I saw somebody the other day telling a Jamaican person, you're not black, you're Jamaican. Well, these are just coming out of this person's mouth. But this is what they were saying. You're not black, you're Jamaican. And the person was telling them, what are you talking about? Look at me, I'm black. No, you're Jamaican, you're not black. And I'm just thinking, wow, but this is the sentiment that that's out there, you know, that because you were born here, you're not really this because it's it's so sad. And I wonder, as these people even read one page of out of Marcus's teaching, Marcus Garvey, that they read one page out of what Malcolm Malcolm used to say back in the day. Do they know who J.A. Rogers is my favorite author, by the way? Do they know how these people that are revered in history actually so how we are all one and it's just so sad and it's prevalent today where people talk about cultural appropriation. like, so you'd say because I connect with something in Nigeria or do something from Egypt, I'm culturally appropriating. Like what the F are you talking about? It just saddens me. But so I appreciate that you brought that up because that's something that I definitely want. to express, but let's talk about white pomposity. And that's from your book? I've never heard those two words put together ever.

speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, and I don't actually say it enough to give you the definition without having the book in front of me, but basically it is white people belief that they can have and do anything they want to do and that people of color, and this is specifically largely aimed at white men, but not just white men, and that people of color, have to step back, have to give in, have to bow down, and that that's the right social order here in this country. And maybe elsewhere, because you know, the Geneva, wasn't the Geneva, what was it called? Where all the European countries came together, the Berlin Conference, and they divided up Africa and the world. They said, you go here, you go here. That was white pomposity way back then. And so it still exists. Okay. Do you remember the case? Yeah, you were in New York by then, the white woman in Central Park. They call the police on the black bird watcher. Yes. That's remember. I mean, these are instances. That's just white. And they call these, they call these women Susie or something like this. Karen's. Yeah. So I mean, that's white pomposity because you are white and you believe that you deserve this. in fact, it's part and parcel of being a white person in this country. I speak to this country because this is where I see it all the time and where I live. And so I think, yes, it is pomposity because it is something that is not, it's not earned, it's not deserved, but you believe that it is inherited in your whiteness. It is inherent in your whiteness that you have authority over the world, over me, over anybody who looks like me, and I have to accept that.

speaker-0: You know, I think part of that concept would be, see some people, influencers talking about they're losing their country and the country is being infiltrated and whatnot. And I understand it actually, but the part that I think about quite consciously is what about the people who were being here as long as you? And as long as your ancestors, seem to be including them in the infiltration. So when I hear people talk about America's white Christian country, and I think, okay, but you know, people who look like me have been here since the founding of America and before. So ⁓ are we somehow not included in your vision of what you want America to be? Or are you talking about this people born outside? What are you talking about when you say? America's a white Christian country and we're losing our country. I understand the fear of someone who is, who is, who is white seeing how America, the demographic is changing. And I've seen statistics that say that, ⁓ that based on population growth, it's going to change even more. And I had some say, I'd say to me, that's what the whole abortion thing is about with white Christian conservatives. It's not about. them really the right to life. It's about, they know they need their people to have more children. What's happening with the demographics. So if they make it illegal, their fault is they'll actually have more people like them. There's that argument. So understand the fear that they think that the country that they consider theirs, not ours, but theirs is changing into something that they've

speaker-1: Yeah

speaker-0: don't recognize or fear. get it. But what I don't understand is how they do not see that, hey, black people have helped you build this country. We've been here since the beginning, you know, in an exploitative way, obviously, against our will, obviously. But we've been here since the beginning and even before. Some of your people came here because you've got the Moorish people that were here before, know, trading with Native Americans. If you really want to understand history, black people were here before the Europeans. So to call it just your country is that to me is racist. That, that, that means right now.

speaker-1: Well, the greatest domestic terrorists began with Christopher Columbus in 1492. It was white people. That's who came here and terrorized. You gave what? Gave Indians blankets with polio. I mean, you came in and took this country. That's, you wanted, you saw it, you took it. And so I think, and to be perfectly honest, Yolani, honestly believe there is a fear in much of white America. about power sharing. And the fact is that they are afraid that when they become the minority, that the minority will treat them as they have been treated. And that's not how we are. But there is that fear. That is the concern. And out of that fear, people operate out of fear. They really do. And they get irrational out of

speaker-0: I think every police shooting was out of fear. Let me rephrase. Every police shooting involving an unarmed person, that is out of fear. Because how can you tell me you fear for your life and the person doesn't have a weapon? I mean, if someone really thinks about that, you could see, I am so afraid of this person. They didn't have a weapon and I have a gun and a taser and a baton. I had to use the gun to stop them. That's how much I... Exactly. fair. goes back to what you said. That's fair. And that's what my dad used to say. A lot of them, people in those positions, they're cowards. know, because it's one thing to be afraid, you know, you can be afraid and not be a coward. You know, it's not, it's not, you know, the same thing. But these people are actual cowards. And I think a lot of them, they're cowards and they have prejudices and they get to hide behind that badge and that gun. Because I say, a lot of those people that they shoot, Take the gun away, take the baton away, take the taser away, and they are not going to even mess with that person.

speaker-1: Absolutely. It's like George Rodriguez stalking Trayvon Martin, you know, even though he was advised not to do it. And in the end, that young black boy was whipping his ass, and that's why he shot him and killed him after studying Stand Your Ground. I mean, you know, that's... And so it is a real problem. Police... Most police in most states have very... Most of them are not... have a high school education to be perfect. That's one thing. So you haven't had a broad exposure. They don't take cultural competence training. They take much more training on the pistol range than they do in terms of cultural competence and engaging in people. And they would not do that to people who look like them.

speaker-0: Exactly. They take them for a burger if they hungry after they kill people. That's they do with people. Look like them. And you know, the interesting, that law is such a farce. Stand your ground. How about, does anybody stand their ground without a weapon? Yeah, really. I want to see you without a weapon. Then tell me that you're courageous. This whole stand your ground thing, no, stand your ground when you have a gun, that's not standing your ground. Now you've got an advantage. How about stand your ground when it's even? You have nothing, he has nothing. Now let me see you stand your ground.

speaker-1: That's right. Go.

speaker-0: Again, goes back to fear, goes back to the prejudice of what they perceive as of black people. But back to the book, let's talk chapter 26. I want you to talk about that. Refresh your memory. McCarthy, Wallace, and Donald Trump race dating.

speaker-1: You know, it's the rhetoric. And I agree with you. See, I have people all the time that will tell me Donald Trump is stupid. I said, Donald Trump is not a learned man, but he is brilliant where he is brilliant. And so, and if you don't recognize that, then woe be unto you because he is able to galvanize people. He knows how to use fear. You're right. It's all about optics with him. That's why all these people around him.

speaker-0: He's brilliant.

speaker-1: pretty people. They're blind, they're well spoken, they're, you know, but it's the opt-in.

speaker-0: Everything he isn't, by the way.

speaker-1: Yeah, it's funny because you listen to his niece, Mary Trump, talk about him and analyze him as a trained psychologist and so all of his traits that he exhibits. But yeah, he is brilliant at framing the other, at othering, and these people are dangerous, these people are scary, let's keep them out, let's lock them up, let's control them, and people buy into that. particularly people who, you know, that's one real difference than I remember going through integration here in Atlanta in 1973. And I grew up all over, you I went to four different high schools in three different states. And so, but when you get people, particularly in the red states where you... Don't go to school with anybody that's Latino. You don't go to school with anybody who's Asian. You don't go to school with anybody who's black. It's so easy to see these people as the enemy, the other, the bad person, the people I should fear. And he stokes that. And then he pours gasoline on it. And that's, and America is this great melting pot. And as you said, and the numbers may be changing because of some of these things like We're rounding up all of the Latino farm workers and making them not want to come over here and everything. But it was by 2040, which this is supposed to become a minority majority nation. So we're headed that way. I think people need to... last... Absolutely.

speaker-0: grab. It's like a blip in where we're going. It's the last grab to hold on to the past and not go into the future, which is what you just described. Yes. Minority, majority country. And I understand it. I completely understand the mentality of that fear. But what I would say to them is you have nothing to fear.

speaker-1: That's right, but fear itself.

speaker-0: Yeah, you're nothing to fear because it doesn't make you obsolete, doesn't make you less than, it doesn't do any of that if we aspire to what America is supposed to aspire to. You know, you have something I think many people consider controversial. Well, a lot of it, Controversial. This one, I'm maybe setting you up to where you have to keep your location secret, but chapter 30, America's biggest- terrorist threat? Young angry white men. Say more.

speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, absolutely. You know, I think that it's a lot. It's just what you just talked about, the browning of America, the fact that power sharing people, particularly white people, and my old boss, Joe Lowry used to always say this, when white America gets a cold, black America gets pneumonia. And what I mean by that is everything is We are so used to strife and struggle and being under the boot and being seen as the other as somebody that's dangerous, somebody that's a predator, somebody that's lazy and shiftless and all of these negative things. And so we understand it's like Du Bois talked about the double consciousness of being black in America. It's great book. And so that is our reality. 24 hours a day, seven days a week. that's why Black people have higher rates of heart disease, hypertension, stroke, because that's... And I mean, that's just part of it. Another part of it is if you don't eat well, right? You know, you drink too much, you but I'm saying those foundational things. But when white people... start struggling and start start. I used to work with my first Republican, well, my first regional director, political appointee when Trump came into office was a former congresswoman named Renee Elmers out of North Carolina. I liked her a lot. She was absolutely straight up strong Trump. In fact, she was one of the first Congress people to endorse him. And so She was telling us though that she and her husband, bought her son an AR-47, maybe it's some kind of one of those automatic weapons. so, and he was like 16 years old. And I'm sitting there saying, why? Why do you do things like that? That's white privilege. And see, you know that more guns were bought during Obama's administration than any other, right?

speaker-0: Yeah, I saw that and you mention that in your book too.

speaker-1: Absolutely. that's that fear thing we say. if you all of a sudden, and so that white rage is expressed that way. The what? The supermarket up in Buffalo, New York, the Kmart down on the border in Texas, the church shootings, all of these are young white, angry, doesn't fight fear almost every time. And so that's what I'm saying is that's the greatest domestic terrorists. And in fact, What did the guy in the Trump administration actually said that? He got a lot of pushback. He wasn't the head of the CIA, the funding. I can't remember right now, but he said young white men are the greatest threat to domestic terrorism. And that's the first time I think that's ever been said. And he got a lot of pushback, but that's the truth. And so, because they're not used to, they're used to being comfortable. being in control, they're used to being privileged. And that's what that's all about. And all I'm saying is, let's acknowledge that that's the case, you know, and then let's start to work towards seeing how we can educate people around it and correct it. But, cause the bottom line is, or not if, but when this country becomes a minority majority country, because you're seeing that all the time. You're seeing black people. and Asian people being married. You're seeing white people and Latino people being married. And so it's hard that one of the great theologians and one of the great leaders in the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, Dr. C.T. Vivian, he always said, it's hard to hate your own blood. So you get to the point where your grandchild, your niece, your nephew, is that, and then you start hearing the stories of their existence and their experience. And then you say, wow, I never thought about it that way. Because guess what? You never had to. Because it didn't impact you. That's why I have a lot of friends, a lot of people who, white people who are allies in this struggle for justice. But see, I know that part of being white and being an ally is if it gets too difficult, you can check out. I can't check out. We can't. From Hotel California. We can. We are who we are. Yeah, so that's it. So I think that that's their anger, and a lot of it is fear, and it's frustration. But again, you don't see, the very few times you see black people haven't done that was there have been a few, and most of them have been military people, and they've been trained, and they said, look, I'm gonna make a statement. These guys aren't making any statement, they're just... with old movie that talked about mad as hell, I'm not gonna take it anymore. They're just frustrated because you gotta compete now. You gotta struggle. My entire existence of my people in this country has been struggled. But I haven't shot anybody, I haven't beaten anybody up, I haven't broken in on anybody. So give me a break.

speaker-0: Before I let you go, I want to ask you a couple more things, but we know President Obama, former President Obama, was known as the Deporter-in-Chief. Why do you call the current president the Denier-in-Chief? Well, yeah.

speaker-1: book very, you can check out there. You know, I don't remember exactly what that was in reference to, but yeah, he denies everything. listen, I agree with you for the most part, he's very honest about who he is and he's straight up and he'll tell you and then he'll try and do it. But I'm saying it's coming back to me. Nothing is his fault. That's why he's the denier. Remember, again, I'm a believer, I'm a Christian, I'm Christ. And so when he said that he never has seen a reason to ask for forgiveness, to me, that says a whole lot about him, okay? As you pointed out, even after somebody else confessed to raping and brutalizing that woman in Central Park.

speaker-0: and still prove that was not those absolute proofs.

speaker-1: Absolutely. his DNA. Absolutely. And he still said, so if you can never apologize, you are never wrong. You remember somewhere in the book, he says, I and I alone can fix it. Yeah. So if you are going to deny all culpability, because at some point in time, first of all, he said COVID was just going to disappear, it's going to go away. Chlorine in your body and all this other stuff. And then the end he says, well, is. He says, all these people are dying. He says, yeah, it is what it is. So I'm saying he never would take responsibility for anything. And now that all these people, he said he wasn't going to get us in wars, right? And now we're fighting all over, because he wants it and he goes and takes it. I'm just saying, when is something, when are you going to ever take responsibility? Like I detest Pan-Bomb D. And I think that she is a disgrace to all of those women who were human trafficked, and women and boys, all those people who were abused by the rich and the powerful because you are protecting somebody, protecting several somebody's. But guess what? He fired her because she wasn't successful in something that... She couldn't be expected to be successful at it. These people who are trying to prosecute Letitia James and all these Jim Comey, all this stuff that's nothing there. But you are, because of his vengeful nature and his retributive personality, he's going after these people. And his people who can't protect him or can't make it happen, at the end, you're gone. Although he hasn't fired any men, we know this, right? These are women. He is hard as hell on women. He just is.

speaker-0: So, yeah, who wants to be part of that cabinet? But before that you go, I want you to put on your advisory hat for just a bit. You've worked through several administrations. You've worked for the Trump administration. And refresh my memory. Who's the congressman for your area? Is it one or?

speaker-1: So Warnock's our senator, but Hank Johnson is my congressman.

speaker-0: Okay, so you've been asked to advise your congressman on how to navigate this world that he's a part of based on your knowledge of working on the inside, working through different administrations, and you're part of quote unquote his cabinet, even though congresspeople don't have cabinets. But let's just say for argument's sake that you're part of his cabinet, his inner circle, and you are called on to advise him how to effectively represent the district. and also navigate dealing with the administration to get what you need to get done for that part of Georgia. What does that advice sound like?

speaker-1: So my congressman is ⁓ real thorn in the side of the president and he was in the first administration. And I think that for the most part, that speaks to our district because it is one of the, I live in one of the blackest districts, certainly in Georgia and in the country. I think that there's not going to be that much progress and not much that's going to help people because you just took away, I think Georgia's in the top three in terms of people who are going to be, who are losing their insurance because of the lack of the subsidies for the Affordable Care Act. So the pain is going to be really deep in this district, but quite honestly, it's going to be deeper in rural Georgia.

speaker-0: The subsidies.

speaker-1: where more white people are. And so I'm just saying that to me, my thing to this congressman and every congressman is teach your people the power of the vote. Teach your people to write letters, to make phone calls, because that's what Congress responds to. That's what government responds to. They know if you take the time to I mean, going out and carrying a sign and shouting to the roof, that's one thing. But if you take the time to write, if you take the time to protest, if you take the time to make a phone call and say, I need you to support this, people listen to that. And I've known Congress people who have lost their seats because they were unresponsive to things like that. And I just think that we have to give back to the basics. I think the young people today, So many of them have begun so disillusioned. Some of them say we should need to tear the whole thing down and start over. I know somebody close to me who believes that. But I think that we have to go back and help our people understand how precious the vote is, how important it is, and the fact that people before you Some people spent their whole lives. I remember when my parents could not vote. I remember that personally. I remember these things. I remember going into restroom. I remember going into a restroom on our way back to my father's side of the family's reunion and stopping in Alabama and going to a restroom that said colored and it was filthy. And my mother took me in there and I remember her, you know, she did her thing. I did mine. and I was leaving out, I turned off the water and turned off the light, my mother lit into me. And it wasn't until many years later that I understood why she was mad at me, because she didn't say, but it was the only way she could strike back at this unjust system that was demeaning her and her children, a whole race of people, was to waste their resources by leaving the light on and leaving the water around. Yeah.

speaker-0: I I'd be massive aggressive.

speaker-1: Because that's all you could do. Because if you didn't stop for gas, you weren't going to. Because you couldn't go into a restaurant, you couldn't stay in a hotel. I remember those days. So I know how the power of the boat is. But we live in this microwave society where young people see everything solved in an hour on a TV show or a two-hour movie. So you don't understand the struggle is it's an enduring struggle. It's a long road to freedom. If you give up, you play into the enemy's hands. That's exactly what they want you to do. They want you to think this is too hard. This can never happen. So I'm just not going to participate in the process until when the process changes. I told young people all the time, look, please vote. I know how I want you to vote, but vote. And in the meantime, build something else. Build a third party, build a fourth party, build whatever you want to do, but don't... abdicate your responsibilities to vote while this is happening because you spin in on the grave of Malcolm and Martin and Marcus and Sojourner Truth and all these people when you do that.

speaker-0: Well, Derek, we'll leave it there. Thank you so much for speaking with me. Well, we'll have to connect again and because there's lots going on in the world and I think your perspective is valuable. So thank you again for coming on Behind the Story.

speaker-1: Thank you. Thank you. And my daughter is a St. John's alum. We'll have to talk about that at some time. Absolutely. Appreciate you, my brother. And I look forward to getting that information. I'll send you those socials too. Bye bye now. Thank you. ⁓

speaker-0: Okay. Thank you. store story

speaker-1: you