Former DEA Agent Reveals the Truth About the Fentanyl Crisis (Only 2mg Can Kill)

What does the fentanyl crisis actually look like from inside law enforcement?

In this episode of Behind the Story, Jelani sits down with Brian Townsend, a retired supervisory special agent who spent nearly 30 years in law enforcement, including 23 years with the Drug Enforcement Administration.

Brian explains why illicit fentanyl has become the most dangerous drug law enforcement has ever encountered—and why just two milligrams can be deadly.

The conversation explores the reality behind drug trafficking, the limits of the war on drugs, and why prevention, awareness, and honest conversations may be the most powerful tools communities have.

Brian also shares insights from building leadership training programs, working complex drug investigations, and witnessing the devastating impact of the opioid epidemic across America.

Topics include:

• Why fentanyl changed the drug landscape
• The difference between overdose and drug poisoning
• Why people are dying on first-time drug use
• The “Only 2mg” reality of fentanyl
• What the public misunderstands about the opioid crisis
• How families and communities can protect themselves

This is a sobering but important conversation about leadership, responsibility, and the human cost of today’s drug crisis.

Transcript

speaker-0: 30 years in law enforcement, I've never seen a drug more impactful than fentanyl. I've never seen a drug change the landscape like one drug has. And you dive deep into all the numbers, all the statistics, it all comes back to one drug, fentanyl. I illicit fentanyl is an absolute game changer. Brian, thank you for being here. I'm really looking forward to our conversation. Yeah, thank you. I look forward to it as well. So let's start at the beginning. know, the man before the mission, before the badge, before the titles. Who's Brian Townsend? Introduce yourself to the behind the story audience. Well, I grew up in Northern Virginia, right outside of Washington, D.C., and made a decision in my high school years, which is odd. ⁓ to be a DEA agent, ⁓ to work somehow in drug enforcement. And quite frankly, didn't know how that was going to be possible or what that road looked like, but I made a decision that I wanted to work in drug enforcement. And I also wanted to leave the East Coast. I loved the East Coast. I loved Virginia. I loved my family, but I really needed to, I call it my reinvention. left Virginia and went to Missouri. I knew one person and that was the person I went to. to school with in Virginia who also left to go to school in Missouri. Got a couple degrees and started my career in law enforcement and ultimately achieved my goal. I became a special agent with the US Drug Enforcement Administration, the DEA. Ultimately spent almost 30 years total in law enforcement and retired a couple years ago and I'm still working with law enforcement. I just no longer have a badge or a gun. Now I'm more in a training capacity. And I love that, but I also work with other folks as well. couple passions, a couple different hats that I wear. And that's really kind of me in a nutshell. Brian, you know, out of curiosity, what is going through the mind of a high school boy that tells him they want to be in the DEA? Yeah, I know. It's not, it's not common, right? I was seeing drugs early on in my life and the impact that they were having on people and communities and didn't like it. And I made a decision that I wanted to be part of some type of solution. And You know, I thought about law enforcement and again, I really didn't know what that meant. You know, I didn't know what that road would lead me to and just made right decisions and just kept on following my gut and following what I thought was the right path. And ultimately it led me to the DEA. But yeah, just really, like I said, just seeing things and seeing the devastation that drugs cause, you know, pushed me to be on this side of the fence. that's commendable, you know, seeing something that's wrong in the community. that you are part of and wanted to do something about it, especially as a young person in high school, young man, it's actually commendable. Did you, you started as a local police officer, is that right? Before getting into federal work? did. When I went to Missouri, I went to college in Missouri, got a couple of degrees, stayed here. And I was, while I was working on my master's degree, I became a police officer and ultimately never wanted to do that. But again, I was trying to figure out what that path to the DEA looked like. And I'm glad I did. It was a great experience. really was. was a police officer in Joplin, Missouri, which is in Southwest Missouri. A great department, great city. Really learned so much and it really helped prepare me for the next chapter of my law enforcement career, which was DEA. But yeah, I was a local police officer for five years. I worked primarily patrols. I would just, you know, patrol the city, take, you know, calls for service, 911 calls. I had an opportunity to work on a street crimes unit for a short time. And I got to work some drugs and other street crimes and that was fun. It's ultimately what I wanted to do more of. But, know, patrol is my primary function and it was great. Like I said, it was a really, really good experience and I it really gave me a leg up and it helped prepare me for, like I the next chapter of my career. Did it prepare you? What were some of those early street level experiences like? What did it teach you that, you know, stayed with you throughout your career? You dealing with people, I think that's the biggest one. It's just, you know, you don't know every call is a little different, right? I mean, there's, there's, there's not a, it's not a spreadsheet in front of your word document and I'm not knocking those things, but I mean, everything is different. Every single day is new. So just talking to people, getting out of the car, you know, the, different calls, the different, you know, cries for help or, maybe they're a victim of a crime. I mean, you're just, constantly dealing with people. Uh, you know, people lie to you, you know, There's no accountability. mean, just all walks of life. mean, you you could rich, poor, black, white, gay, straight. I mean, it didn't matter. You were dealing with everything, right? you were, which was really cool because you were getting all this, these different lessons thrown at you and you had to deal with them. You had to be, you know, professional and you had to, you know, you had to think on your feet and, and react and, and, and, you know, and do the right thing. Right. Just dealing with people, think that would really, really help me. And quite frankly, I was kind of a naive kid, you when I started law enforcement, you know, I grew up in a family that without domestic violence and mom and dad that actually loved each other, harm each other. So when I get into law enforcement and I start seeing these things, I'm like, wow, like there's a whole nother side of the world that I knew existed, but I was never really a part of, right? I had to get used to that as well, know, had to deal with that, you know, what I was seeing and how I would handle that. And was good. was a good experience. really, it really helped me, think not only in my next chapter, you know, with DEA, but also just, just grow up as a person, right? Right. You you hit upon something that I always hop on in the U S you were part of the community that you were policing. I'm, I don't know you know this about my background, but I'm from the Caribbean born and raised. And I remember growing up where we had a different level of respect for police officers, because part of the reason to me was that. Joe, the policeman, lived on my street. And if he said something to my dad, it was going to be a problem for me because that's the neighbor talking to my dad about something I possibly did. And I think one of the problems in America, they say it's community policing, but it really isn't, especially like physically here. I'm in New York City at the moment and you will have police officers that live out in New Jersey or live out in Long Island, but they're policing people in Brooklyn or wherever. It's not the same. It's different cultures, different norms. So they're interacting with people that they don't really know. Did you see, in your experience, being part of that community and policing that community, the way that they treated you was different as opposed to people who maybe were not part of the community as a police officer? Yeah, I mean, they obviously will know whether or not you're part of that culture, you're part of that community. I guess I was maybe too naive to recognize that as well because I was part of the community and I've always found it. Even early on in my long course from career is you gotta, you gotta get outside the vehicle. You gotta get into the neighborhoods. You gotta get into the communities. You gotta make yourself human and not just someone in a uniform, someone wearing a badge, you know? And even now I teach a, I teach a class on informants. When I talk to folks, you know, they always ask me, what's the, what's the secret sauce? What's the, what's the handshake? Right. I said, there's nothing secret about it. It's about going out there and just creating. relationships, you know, and not only creating, but maintaining these relationships and actually just being authentic and caring about these communities. You know, are you, is this a stat? Are you looking to arrest someone? you truly looking to make your community safer and better for everyone? And once you meet that or once you understand that obligation and you start working towards it and living your life towards that, I think people realize that and they respect that and they respond and communicate better. You it builds trust and it's it's a win-win for everyone. Yeah. You spent over 20 years in the DEA, different roles and different, know, increasingly senior leadership roles, obviously. And I'm curious, is there, there a part of the work with the DEA that the public almost never sees or in fact, we misunderstand? There's a lot of sitting behind a computer. Really? ⁓ my goodness. Yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, obviously you're out there doing surveillance or you're You're doing operations, know, ultimately, know, search warrants or arrest warrants. But there's a lot of analytical work, a lot of sitting behind the computer, you know, a lot of collaboration, you know, between other, you know, whether it's other DEA or other federal partners or state or local partners. You know, I was real big on, I had a supervisor that was real big on ⁓ conspiracy investigations where, you know, you're putting together, you know, these complex cases where You're proving, you know, more than a few people ⁓ were involved in drug trafficking, right? And it's not just the dealer, it's the wholesaler, it's the manufacturer, it's the courier. mean, it's every part of the, every facet of the organization. Well, those can be quite complex investigations, right? And I really loved those types of cases, but it's a lot of sitting behind the computer. mean, you're... constantly collaborating information from witness statements or telephone exploitation or whatever it is, you're trying to put together a file that you can give to the US Attorney's office and they can look at it and say, it's very clear that these people are involved in this criminal investigation and we need to them accountable. Obviously, you're in a position that you were in managing people, different programs, informants, as you mentioned. I mean, lots of, and probably involved in lots of high-stake decisions, you know, with what you're doing. For you as a person, how do you, how is your leadership style or how do you lead when the consequences could be actually life or death? It's quite serious. Yeah, absolutely. My leadership style is very basic and this is in fact what I teach with my, with one of my businesses is, is back to the basics. I'm very intentional about what I do. I don't feel and I've never felt that leadership is a title or some type of stripes on your shoulder or a business card or a bigger office. It's very intentional. It's to inspire people, to engage with others, to get them to be their best. You've got to be intentional about doing that. Of course, you can tell them to do something, but that's not leadership. That's just positional power, right? And then you have to understand the impact that it has. You know, and not only impact it has, but sometimes the impact that things you don't do have on people, right? I mean, if I don't hold you accountable and all the rest of your teammates see that, I mean, I'm telling them something, right? I'm telling them that consistent and I'm not fair or whatever, but. So understanding that impact and just constantly working at it, building that trust, you know, I wanted people to, to, to look at me and say, okay. There's someone I trust. There's someone I've built a relationship with and he's the boss and I'm going to listen to him not because he has positional authority, but because he has personal authority, personal power. He's authentic. He cares about me. And that's what I really hoped that I did. And that's something that I still teach to people. It's really simple when you think about it. It's not hard to be a good human and make good choices and care about the people. Especially if you're in a position of authority, you know, no one, no one put a gun to your head and says, you're going to be the boss, you're going to be the CEO, you're going to be the director. But now you're, you're whether you like it or not. ⁓ Now you're tasked with taking care of people. You know, it's not just about the organization of the bottom and the bottom line. It's about, you know, it's about the, makes the organization better, what makes the bottom line sweeter. From the outside, a member of the public, the perception of me and people I know is the drug war, the war on drug or whatever, that is just, it's so insurmountable. There's really nothing that can be done. We have this, what can the DEA actually do? Can they really stop it? It seems like it's too overwhelming of a task, of a situation. I'm curious from the inside, is that how you and your colleagues feel? Do you guys feel overwhelmed or you're just making a little dent and there's nothing you can do? the sentiments from the inside. Yeah, you know, it's something we talked about quite a bit at different times throughout my career, different people. You know, I think the consensus is, and of course I can't speak for everyone or the DEA, ⁓ but there's this multifaceted approach to stopping what we're doing, right? I I realized pretty quickly that we can't arrest our way out of this. I think this is an important part, you know, piece, but it's certainly not the only piece, you know. I get asked all the time, you know, how do we end drugs? How do we end the war? You know, well, we got to reduce the demand. It's that simple. I mean, really it is. I mean, as long as you have people willing to put these poisons into their body, then there's always, always, always going to be someone willing to, you know, smuggle these drugs, traffic these drugs, you know, do evil things to get the drugs into this country and into our communities. and make that money because someone wants it, right? It's just literally simple economic supply and demand. Supply and demand. Yeah, right. But I do believe, and I think a lot of my colleagues do as well, that there has to be more of holistic approach. You know, you have to look at it from different angles. Yeah, the enforcement piece is important, but we need to figure out how to reduce the demand, the prevention, the awareness training, ⁓ treatment, you know, there's the stigma. I mean, let's face it, that's probably the biggest reason why we have such a problem in the United States is one is the demand. Number two is we have a stigma towards it. We don't really throw the resources at this problem that we would any other problem. You know, and I use this example a lot of 20 dolphins a day were washing up on the shore of any beach in the United States. I mean, we would all be, you know, texting $20 to the different causes. know, our senators and congressmen's phones would be blowing up. But in the time that you and I are talking, there's going to probably be 30, 35 folks die of drug overdoses, what the government calls it. I call it drug poisoning. In this short time that you and I are talking, and unless you're a parent or a family member or a friend of that person, quite frankly, no one cares. And that's something we have to change. We have to change that stigma because there's a lot of folks out there who are really struggling with substance use. who are afraid, they're ashamed, they're embarrassed, and they just, they stay in the shadows because of it. So we need to change the way we approach this and look at this, reduce that stigma, eliminate that stigma really, and go after that demand. And then while we do that, you know, folks like the DEA or other law enforcement agencies need to be aggressive against these traffickers and their people that are bringing these poisons into our communities. Not only does that sound like a gargantuan task, it sounds Because what you're talking about is so simple, it's incredibly difficult. You're basically saying if people were not put in a position where they felt that they needed to succumb to that disease, let's call it a disease, drug use, addiction, let's call it a disease, but it's compensation. If they didn't have to succumb to that, then the problem wouldn't exist because who would they be selling it to? But then that's what I mean by such a gluganto and toss because... How are we going to get mental and psychological help and counseling for all those people? It just seems like such a gargantuan, overwhelming task to consider. absolutely agree. And it's heartbreaking, but it's important. And maybe we move the ball only an inch, and we have several miles to go. But we got to move the ball at the end of the day. And it is a big task. It really is. I got to tell you, every single day I wished that I'd be out of work because we didn't have a problem anymore. And obviously I knew that that would never happen. But, that was the goal line, right? Is how do we eliminate this poison? And I'm not naive to think we're ever going to do it, but I think we have to keep on trying. I think that's important. think people are important and they're worthy of us keeping the ball moving for them. think the hope is what you just stated. You said in this conversation that we're having what, 35 people? probably overdosed and died. So I think if you move that inch and it saved 35 people, that's 35 families that don't have to deal with that. So I suppose when you think of it from that perspective, the little inch, the little dent that you're making becomes worth it, especially if it's your family member. This is one way of looking at it. Yeah, mean, when I give presentations and I talk to people and I have numerous examples, but when I have a child come to me afterwards and... and say, know, I'm going to get help. You know, I'm going to, that's a life that's potentially saved. You know, that's a family that's potentially saved. That matters, you know? And I know that when you look at the overall picture, maybe it's a minuscule amount, but it matters to that person. It matters to that family. And that's the drive that keeps me going. And I think that's what we all need to look at is, you know, just how do we keep on moving forward and making the world more positive? Yeah. I was reading in your biography on that and correct me if wrong, that you developed ⁓ or helped build a leadership training at Quantico. Was that true? Yeah. Yeah. So part of my, my, my career with DEA was I got assigned to the training academy, which is in Quantico, Virginia. And most people know Quantico, well, of course the Marine Corps base is there, but for the FBI Academy, but right next to the FBI Academy is the DEA Academy. And I was assigned there for about three and half, almost four years. And I was in charge of most in-service training. And when I got there, I realized that all the in-service training included leadership. And I said, we need to break this ⁓ apart and have our own leadership and development training unit. And ultimately I had ⁓ great ⁓ leaders who I worked for who ultimately agreed. And actually got to start DEA as a leadership and development training unit. So I broke those pieces off and we started to build. a training program for DEA, our workforce, which ⁓ probably approximately 10,000 folks. So we built the foundation and I'm very proud of that. It was a lot of work, but I think ultimately like to believe it's helping DEA and our future leaders make a difference. they also learn. What did you, in developing that program and administering that program, what did you learn about yourself and about, you know, your leadership style? Yeah, you know, I'm going to reiterate some of the things I talked about earlier, you know, that the intentional, the impactful, because it's interesting, I went through a lot of training and I taught different blocks, I audited a lot of classes, evaluated a lot of classes. It seems like we keep on regurgitating a lot ⁓ of lessons, you you could read a book from 1905 and you can read a book from 2026 and nothing's really new, right? We're just creating new terms, extreme ownership, psychological safety, know, emotional intelligence. None of these concepts are new. We're just re-terminating them. And I'm not faulting folks who, you know, write those books or come up, coin those terms, you know, bravo. But it's the basics that I really learned. And that's, it took me a while to really, to, to, that was part of my development, I should say. don't want to it took me a while. is coming to an understanding of just the basics. I mean, I literally have three basics I teach. It's intentional, it's impactful, and the third one is that it starts with yourself. You have to look in the mirror and say, how do I improve? How do I bring my best game and prepare myself if I'm willing to lead others? And to me, just going back to the basics is everything for leadership. And it resonates with people. When I teach, I don't use PowerPoint. We just talk. We talk about these things. I'm happy to talk about the different concepts and the different books out there and the different phrases out there. But ultimately, if you're not intentional about these things, and if you don't understand the impact about these things, then they're lost. Yeah. My dad used to say, not because you, you know, take something and give it a different name means you invented it or created it. Wise man. Absolutely. Yeah, here's a question I just thought about as you were speaking, reflecting back to that high school boy that wanted to be in the DEA and moving forward to this, the leadership program that you develop. What would that, Brian, tell, what would the advice be based on that leadership program? What advice would you give the high school boy that was thinking, I'm going to be a DEA agent? You know, it's funny is when I do an eight hour leadership course, I call it, there's a segment I do called Sage Advice and that's What you just asked me is literally what I ask classes. I've never, gosh, in several years of doing this, I think I've ever been asked this question. I think one of the important things is relationships. I built a lot of relationships. I'm very proud of that, but there were some that I didn't really maintain. So it's not just about, you know, connecting with someone and, you know, building rapport with them and having a discussion, but you know, maintaining that relationship. it doesn't have to be, you you talk to this person every day, every week, every month for that matter. But, but, uh, I always hated when I, when I would call someone up. mean, there are people in your life where you can call up once a year and you have a conversation like it was yesterday's conversation, right? Those are your brothers and sisters, right? Yes. But then there are people who you probably ought to talk to more and you don't. And I always felt, I didn't feel authentic, you know, If I called someone a year later, and especially if I needed something, I felt horrible. Yeah. It's like, I calling you because I just need something? Obviously I do. But I also genuinely like you and I felt like we're friends, but I felt less as a person because I wasn't maintaining that I don't know what constant is. Again, I don't know how frequently do we have to talk for me not to feel that way? I don't know. Everyone's a little different, right? But just maintaining these relationships, developing and maintaining relationships is critical. Cause ultimately, mean, whether people want to agree or not, it's not always what you know in life, it's who you know in life. Yeah. Yeah. Let's switch and talk about the opioid and fentanyl crisis for a bit. And for the purpose of this conversation, I feel as though you are a trusted voice in speaking about, you know, the fentanyl crisis and opioid today. And as a member of the public and somebody who I've never been a drug user. I don't even drink. So I'm coming from that place when I ask this question. What are we in the public, what are we getting wrong about the opioid crisis? Devastating it is. 30 years in law enforcement, I've never seen a drug more impactful than fentanyl. I've never seen a drug change the landscape like one drug has. And you dive deep into all the numbers, all the statistics, it all comes back to one drug. I mean, illicit fentanyl is an absolute game changer. You know, you look at the numbers, I mean, no, you know, it'll be a while until 2025 number comes out. But 2024, we lost 80,000 folks in this world, or I'm sorry, in this country, which is in the United States alone. And about 75 % were because of one drug. So that's 60,000 people. The year before that, we lost 105,000 Americans to drugs. Again, 75 % because of one drug. So that's 70, I don't know, 78, 79,000 again, because of one drug. And if you look at the government's been, the United States government has been tracking this data since 1968. They call it, they call it drug overdose data. And again, I call it drug poisoning data. And if you look at the line, it's a horizontal line that just turns vertical. And if you look at where it turns vertical and where it continues to climb, it's because of one drug. So I'll say it again, you know, after 30 years in law enforcement, never seen a drug more impactful. I mean, that's what it did. We went from three, four, 5,000 deaths a year, which is, know, I'm not trying to minimize deaths. That's still too many to, an average of 80, 90,000 a year. This is ridiculous. You know, and it's, can remember when I'd go into schools or go into organizations and I would ask, you know, Hey, who here knows someone who's been impacted by drugs? And you might have a few people raise their hands. It is rare when I go into an organization now and say, who here you know, knows someone or has been impacted. It's a very rare where I don't get 95 % of the hands. Let tell you what, it really breaks your heart when you do that in schools because our kids are growing up with this. Think about how many, how many kids are growing up without moms and dads because they're dying from, this poison. You know, we, we have a drug that kills people the first time they use it. We've never had a drug like that in our drug supply. So I, and I hate to keep on repeating myself, but I mean, game changer, impactful. mean, this is. These are all the words that you can easily use for this drug. I I truly feel that we are still in crisis mode. And unfortunately, because of the stigma and the way that our society feels about people who struggle from addiction, most people don't know or don't care or a combination of both. It's interesting because as you were talking, I was thinking about a question you answered part of it, which was how does this compare to the crack epidemic? in the eighties and nineties, because not to make it about race or anything, but I remember being a child, not living in the U S but hearing Nancy Reagan just saying no and no one caring and whatnot. And the sentiment seems to be because crack really impacted the minority communities in the U S. So nobody cared. And now again, not trying to make it about race, but I think it's a valid question. It seems to be more impactful across the lines. And now with all of a sudden it's a disease and There's some cynical people saying, why don't you just say no? Isn't that what Nancy Reagan said? What's really the difference in the impact between the crack epidemic and the fentanyl epidemic? I've always wondered, because in my head, being a child back then, obviously, and a member of the public, I think is just as bad. But hearing what you just said, it sounds like this is worse, is it? Yeah, it is worse. And you know, I've heard that before. I've heard a lot of folks say that. I think it's a valid... question and a valid concern. mean, was there no concern because it was impacting the minority community back in the 80s and 90s. now you have young white boys and girls dying. It's an absolute valid concern. But I think the difference now is first time drug use, the experimental drug use, the casual drug use, the recreational drug use. We've never cracked it and do that. This is a drug that's killing people. who were not even looking for this drug. This is the 16 year old, regardless of their sex or race, who was looking for, let's say, an Adderall pill. And it gets fentanyl. That's the big difference is how it's just killed people indiscriminately and without their knowledge. I I think you could probably look at a couple years of data and none of the folks who died probably knew what fentanyl was. I mean, they were looking for heroin. They were looking for... Percocets, Adderalls, Xanax bars, ⁓ cocaine, methamphetamine, some other drug. And ⁓ unfortunately, the traffickers put this poison in our drug supply and unknowingly to a lot of users, it's killed them on first time drug use. I think that's the big difference. And my apologies for my naivete because on this question is going to really showcase that. because I don't know anybody that takes that drug or have taken it. What does it do? What does fentanyl actually do to the body? Well, I think a lot of folks don't know this. There's no what... Fentanyl is an opioid. it's like hair. Hydrocodone, for example. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. In the same family, not the same, but same family. 100%. In the brain and in the body, it does the same concept, if you will, and attaches itself to the opioid receptors. And it's designed to either reduce the intensity or eliminate pain, but it overwhelms the body, the brain. And what fentanyl does, especially in very small doses, overwhelms the brain and your brain basically tells the rest of your body, hey, I got this. Don't need you anymore. So your heart starts to beat less and less and it causes what we call respiratory depression. So a lot of folks, especially on the street, we call it the sleepy death. So fentanyl in very small doses, only two milligrams, literally, I mean, a couple of granules of salt or sand can overwhelm the body, create respiratory depression and shut down your system. So if you're not breathing, you know, when we breathe in, we take in oxygen, we breathe out, we breathe out carbon dioxide. Well, respiratory depression means that you're not breathing very well so that carbon dioxide stays in your system. And it starts to shut down everything until you die, right? without medical aids. That's exactly what fentanyl does. It does it very fast and, you know, this is going to be weird to say, but it's very effective in doing that. You know, it's very good at shutting down the body. Not in a good way for us, but, you know, as far as the drug goes. there any medical use for it? Yeah, absolutely. And that's something I probably should have clarified. Medical fentanyl is a good thing. You know, the World Health Organization lists as an essential medicine. If you've ever been in surgery or in severe pain, probably had fentanyl or a fentanyl analog. Is it like anesthesia? Is that what it's like? Yeah. mean, you know, ultimately to go back into the history of it, you know, it was created in the late fifties and where it got its legs was it replaced morphine in the operating room during open heart surgery when they were still developing, you know, know, open heart surgery. And it was, it's, it's a very strong, potent drug that only needs a little bit to do, you know, to be effective. I it was designed to be you know, a hundred times more potent than morphine and everything else that was around at the time. And I always call it the tank when it comes to reducing pain, you know, it absolutely was. And unfortunately, it found its way into the illicit drug supply and that's completely different. It came in when we had a huge spike in pills, thanks to the pharmaceutical industry. And then it, you know, it came in through our heroin and then from heroin, took over the pills and now we've seen it in methamphetamine, we see it in cocaine and... And it's it's poisoned our entire already poison-illicit drug supply. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to bring it up in my next, and you brought it up anyway, the two milligram thing and you're wearing the shirt that actually says it. I mean, only two milligrams. It's haunting in its simplicity. Can you explain what that number represents? Why understanding it actually is important? Only two milligrams is a couple granules of salt or sand. So I want you to think about the tip of a pencil or tip of a pen. lot of times when I talk to people, especially young people, I'll pull out a packet of sugar and most sugar packets, most of them are about a gram. Well, a gram is a thousand milligrams. If it only takes two milligrams of fentanyl to kill you, if that sugar packet were fentanyl and it had a thousand milligrams in it, that would be enough to kill 500 people. So sometimes I'll show that sugar packet and I'll actually dump it into a little glass vial. And I've talked to student bodies before, I've had three, 400 students from me and I'll pass that little round and I'll say, look, this little vial, this little bit of, you it's sugar, but if it were fentanyl, could literally kill every person in this room, plus another hundred. So I want them to see how little it takes and then I'll give some examples. I mean, I was talking to a family member who lost her niece to an overdose. in California and she took an Adderall pill, a third of an Adderall pill. She was with two of her girlfriends. They ordered an Adderall pill and it was counterfeit. They split it in three pieces. We're talking about a little tiny pill and that third of the piece she had had fentanyl in it because only two milligrams and she never woke up. And that's the reality of it. I mean, we're talking a minuscule amount and that's one of the most important messages I leave with kids is it doesn't take a lot. There's many terms. Sometimes we call it the chocolate chip cookie effect. You if we had chocolate chip cookies, you know, maybe on the first bite, you don't get a chocolate chip. Maybe get it on the second or third bite. It's the same thing with the pill. mean, you think about how small two milligrams is. How easily can that hide in any part of that pill? So that's why when you hear stories about people breaking pills in half or in thirds, you know, and one person dying, well, there's, that's not a surprise because it only takes a little bit to overwhelm the body and kill you. Yeah, two milligrams, that's another big difference between that and other drugs. We've never had a drug that kills people in such small quantities. ⁓ Brian, what's the emotional toll on you, you know, seeing this human cost of this crisis, you know, up close and personal year after year, day after day. Yeah, you know, my way of dealing with things is just to talk them out, you know, and I feel like because of my history and my experience and... things I've seen that I am a good candidate to talk to others and especially young people about, you know, why they should avoid these poisons, you know, and their resilience and their messages of hope really keep me going, you know, especially when someone comes up to me. had a kid come up to me. was a college student. A couple months after I had given us a talk with about 500 college students in the room. And I, of course, I didn't know who he was. was just some random... you know, kid, right? Who came up to me and says, I saw you speak a couple months ago and I just want to let you know that gave me a lot to think about. And I'd been struggling with, you know, some things and, and, ⁓ because I, you know, I've made some calls, I've been talking to people and, I'm really dealing with some, some, some real trauma in my life that, know, that I turned to drugs and alcohol to, to, you know, as a way to cope with those things. And, and I thought, man, you know, this is, this is a kid that is putting his life in order, right? This is a kid that, who knows, maybe he's going to the president one day, right? Maybe he's going to invent some gadget that makes mankind safer or makes our world better, right? I mean, I don't know, I just think that's neat. I think that's just what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to make the world a better place. And I think that's the best way for me to deal with all the... all the crap that I've had to see in my life. You know, in having this conversation, as we're talking, I'm rethinking a personal philosophy. I'm real sort of libertarian when it comes to certain things like drugs, for example. So, and the way I look at it is you want to drink, it's your choice, as long as it doesn't affect other people. You want to do drugs, whatever you want to do, as long as it does not have a negative impact on other people in society, have at it. But... In talking to you and hearing the inside of what it is, hearing from the inside the effect that it's having, I'm starting to think maybe we shouldn't be so libertarian and so free with allowing people to take certain things. It's too dangerous, you know? And I wonder, from the inside, had, mean, fentanyl obviously is not legal, but marijuana becoming legal in certain places, what has the impact of legalization like that had on... you know, enforcement in your job and how do you all on the inside see people like me on the outside, somewhat naive, somewhat cool is saying, ⁓ libertarian, let people do whatever they want. Doesn't affect me. Like what are you guys thinking when you hear people like me and our naivete thinking we're about freedom and we're for people having the freedom to kill themselves basically from listening to what you're saying? Yeah, you know, I've, I've actually felt very similar to that a lot in my life, you know, question my, you know, should I be enforcing this if I, you know, if I'm all about free will and allowing people to make choices. But unfortunately the choices they make do impact a lot of us, right? I mean, if you develop a substance use disorder and addiction, what do you, you know, unless you're a millionaire, you're robbing people, you're stealing from people, you know, you are impacting society. In fact, you can look at all crime and typically it links back to drugs. I mean, if they were a genie, came out of a bottle and you said, let's make drugs gone. Let's just make them disappear. My goodness, crime would shrink. would just, so it does impact people and it does impact families and impacts communities. And I think that's something that, you know, we do have an obligation to protect. And I think a lot of folks who are struggling with these things are struggling because of other... I mean, not everyone uses drugs or alcohol struggling with a trauma or abuse or something like that, but a lot of folks are, right? And again, that's the damage that drugs do, right? And we have to figure out a way we can help people. I think we have a moral obligation almost, an ethical obligation, just to help people, help extend our hand and say, can we make you better? Ultimately, that makes our communities better, safer, our world better. I don't know, I answer your question? It seems like we share the same sentiments, but it is having a negative impact. It's not as free as we think because it does impact the rest of us, even economically, right? Because we've got to take care of these people in some way. So it does have an impact. After retiring, you didn't actually step away. You seem like you step deeper into ⁓ education and prevention. What compelled you to keep going? Always felt a sense of serving. always, there's always this, I know, I just, feel like that's my purpose on this planet and this world is to serve. And I did that through law enforcement and I could have stayed with DEA Head. I could have stayed longer. And I just felt like there was another way. There was another, there was another chapter of my life I had to write and I needed to figure out how that could still keep with my, you know, serving people. and, and ultimately that was through a, you know, Eagle Six Training, which is a training and consulting business. then, and then ultimately the only 2MG, which is from where in here, which is a nonprofit organization. And, and that's to raise awareness of illicit fentanyl and other public safety threats. So, you know, yeah, I'm probably more busier than I ever have been, but you know, I'm control, controlling that I'm enjoying it. And just like when I was with the DEA, I feel like I'm just living life and getting to do what I love and in a sense of purpose and just my mission in life, I guess. I was going to ask you about it and you just brought it up. Eagle Six Training, what's that? So just behind the name, so Eagle is the bird. The DEA badge, if you look at the Department of Justice DEA, the eagle is a big part of that. So that's kind of a representative of my time at DEA. And then six is a term that we use in law enforcement and the military as well. You know, you're back, right? I got your back. And then training, you know, so that was the thought was Eagle Six training. You know, we'll take care of you, whatever needs you have. And ⁓ I do a lot of leadership training, not just law enforcement, private sector as well. enjoy it. Like I said, it's back to the basics, right? I mean, it's intentional, impactful, starts with yourself. That's really the basics of what I do. But we'll tailor programs to whatever the customer's needs, do some consulting. Lately, I've been doing a lot of products. People know I have ⁓ access to law enforcement across the country and they want that feedback, right? Not just from me, but the folks I'm talking to. So they'll send me products or things like that and I'll consult with them to make sure that they're designed or advertised in a way that makes everyone more effective. From a perspective of responsibility, what responsibility do leaders inside and outside of law enforcement have right now in confronting the crisis from your side, in your opinion? Yeah, I mean, we got to have just real conversations. We got to look at this holistically. mean, when I was a DEA, our approach was to arrest, right? And that's what our mission is, go after the biggest, baddest, most violent drug traffickers. But we got to figure out how do we build coalitions? How do we build relationships outside of law enforcement that have the same mission and get that vision together, put it all in... one room and talk about it, collaborate with these folks. And we need leaders who understand that and are ready to step up and fill those roles, right? And it's not just about, what can my team do or what can my organization do? But how can all of us work together? Because it makes no sense that we're all trying to reinvent the wheel or we're all trying to push the same vehicle forward. mean, let's all collaborate and get on the same page and we can be a lot more effective that way. What about for parents, teachers, people in the community, if they're watching this conversation, what's one thing that you would hope that they would take away that they can take into the community, into their family immediately? Have conversations with the people you love. Whatever, if it's your kids, whether it's whatever circle of influence you have. One of the things I always say when I train is be a force multiplier. You know, take this information and don't just go to sleep on it. mean, share it, right? If there was some nuggets there that can help people share it. There's a commercial I saw was in New Mexico or something. It's like 20 second commercial on how to have a ⁓ talk with your kids about drugs. That 20 seconds can absolutely impact them for the positive. Just have these conversations. can't tell you how many parents I've talked to who say things like, a side, add a mine. Don't bury your head in the sand until it's too late. I know a lot of families will tell you that I waited too long. saw the signs, the red flags, and now my son or daughter is gone. And I wish I would have acted. Don't wish, just be proactive, right? Don't react, be proactive. Just have these conversations. It really, truly matters. And our kids want it. They're starving for this information. And I promise you, they're going to find it somewhere if you don't give it to them, whether it's social media. Whether it's drug traffickers, whether it's some goofy friend, they're going to get the information. So why not give them accurate information? Knowledge is power, right? And just give it to them and hope they make the right decision with it. Let me put you on a spot before I let you go. You're testifying before Congress and they asked for two things. said, Brian, give us two things that we could put into place right now. that will have an impact on this crisis. Don't worry about bureaucracy or anything like that. You give us these two things, we're gonna put them in place. What would those two things be? This is like a genie coming out of a bottle, right? Because this will never happen. Well, hopefully they'll hear it and somebody will take it and go. I'm not someone who thinks you can throw money at something and solve it. I really, I want to put that out there before I give this, but ultimately that's... Kind of the problem sometimes is we are fighting for resources. mean, it is incredible. I remember Springfield, Missouri, I was doing some work and if you were a male, if you're a male and you're struggling with addiction, it was only one bed available for you for treatment. One. They'd have to find, you know, get a Kansas City or St. Louis or some other area because there's no money for just... beds. And, you know, and the politicians say, well, we throw all this. No, you don't. And I'm not saying money is the answer because there really is a holistic approach, but we're talking about tiny resources. And there are organizations out there who get fractions of this tiny resource and they go buy needles or pipes. They think that's the answer. And now I'm all about harm reduction. And that's probably gonna open a can of worms there for me just even saying that. But we, so little money. So yeah, if I had the opportunity to say, you know, open the checkbooks up and again, I'm not saying that that's going to solve the problem. It's not. But it's hard to help. Because right now, I mean, it's, it's, it's embarrassing how little we care about this. And I go back to the dolphins, you know, I mean, it's, that's the reality of it is, my nonprofit, I'm fun, I'm privately funded by a few folks without their generosity. I'd be, be gone. I wouldn't be able to do what I can do. I've been non-successful in getting grants, anything like that. But let me tell you, it's tough. I mean, it really is. I mean, I've done raffles and fundraisers where we lose money because people just don't care. They really don't until it happens to their family. that's a big one. Again, I understand that money is not the solution. It takes more than that, but we kind of give more than just a few dollars. This is silly. Yeah. And if I may, Brian, it's not that money is the solution, but what you can do with the money is the solution. Much better said. Absolutely. That's why let you go. After nearly three decades in this, what gives you hope? People. People give me hope. You know, we always see the bad in people. We read about all the crap online, but ultimately people are good, you know, and it's unfortunately the bad that clutters all the good, right? I mean, The majority of the time people do the right thing. know, the majority of the time, know, organizations do the right thing, but those don't make the new. I look at law enforcement. you know, millions of people were helped today, but you know, if there's one bad police officer, and I'm not saying that we shouldn't, you know, call those folks out because if they do something wrong, certainly we need to call them out and make them accountable. But we forget about all the good in this world, right? And, people give me hope. I think. I don't maybe I'm too optimistic, but I think people are beautiful. I think ultimately, you know, think ultimately we all want better, you know, for our children, for ourselves, for our communities. So people. Well said. And you are not too optimistic. There's worse ways to be. Brian, thank you so much. Really appreciate the conversation. Thank you. I appreciate it as well.