Playing the long game - Jeralie Pallot on building businesses that last.

In part two, Jeralie Pallot reflects on what she'd do differently as a leader, as a business owner, and as someone now on the other side of a sale. 

She talks about the co-investment she made in Ocerli, a Jersey-built payroll SaaS platform, with co-founders she'd barely met. And she shares some honest thoughts on what the future of recruitment in Jersey actually looks like. 

Luke Smith continues his conversation with Jeralie Pallot, former owner and Non-Exec Director of Rowlands Recruitment and Director at Ocerli, in episode 2 of 2 of #GreatAtBusiness. 

Listen for advice and insights on: 

- Why she'd do some things differently as a leader - and what changed when she stepped back 

- How she co-invested in Ocerli with co-founders she'd barely met and why instinct beat spreadsheets 

- The Jerry Maguire moment coming for Jersey recruitment - fewer clients, deeper relationships, more value 

- What separates a great business from a good one: impact and influence, not just the bottom line 

- Why she'd still tell her younger self to go into business sooner 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:05

Rialto's been born out of people not succession planning. And um because it's expensive and it takes a lot of time and it and you know, you are probably gonna have some false starts because if you do talk about actually sometimes you just gotta it's 3 a.m.

unknown 0:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 0:25

You know, and it's not it's not not often that if there's a proper problem with one of the team members who's going through something personally that you have to sort out, and then a client who's angry because of whatever's happened. So there's a and and so there is a you know you said it was a privilege to run a business, and I mean I you buy it, so I'm not sure if it's a privilege or not, but you you know, there's the opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Yeah, so well for me it's a privilege, yeah. But interestingly, one of the reasons for a management buyout was I wanted to give someone else that opportunity. But actually I probably didn't always thought, possibly very wrongly now, is that if you're a leader of business, you don't show a level of vulnerability to your team. You I wanted them to have total faith, even the worst of times, that I had yes, trust me, I've got this. Um, and so what I'll do during the day is be present, be uh involved, um, and very upbeat. Um, and then uh the the evenings and the weekends were when I mean COVID, I'd like be online, doing teens meeting together, and then just crash at the end of the day. Uh so it wasn't a pleasant experience uh for me. But um I that was a mistake. I I should have been very open and said, in fact, Luke, you told me when I was doing this management buy, you did say to me um you need to say exactly what it's like, what it's like with a young family. Um and I thought, oh no, it's like, you know, everyone knows. So if I was giving someone advice now, I would probably look very seriously at the succession planning.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Um I would um give them very clear uh guidelines as to what the day is like. I've never gone on holiday and not been on my emails every day. I've um always are so often I've sacrificed holidays, I've cancelled them, you know, and you know, you do you do see less of your children. Someone someone said to me once, long as they know you'd rather be with them.

SPEAKER_03 2:37

One of the things that we've talked to people about, because most people that we work with are genuine, like they they love it and they're hardworking because they they love it. And so when I'm saying, well, you know, we'll get get you to a point where you can take someone on and you can work less, and I I think at the 80-20 principle, 80% don't want to work less, they do genuinely love what they do, and that obviously has consequences um elsewhere. Doesn't mean there's don't love their families any less, but there's a there's a passion for it that drives behaviour, and it's yeah, it's just whether or not in the future that passion is gonna continue for certain uh for enough people to run run small businesses or something. They want to perhaps set up their own, but so there is it is Do you do you think I mean we've we've talked in the past about you know we're very different people and um you know I'm quite sink or swim like you know and crack on and you know, oh you're an adult, get on with it, sort of thing. Yeah, and you're sort of positive and looking after everybody and creating a very um welcoming and friendly environment. I mean, is the answer in the middle, or do you think that the positivity maybe in your indust in in the recruitment industry sales is hard, you're gonna get knockbacks all the time, and so it has to be different. But where's but you know, with now that we own Rolands, there will be a there'll be a change in tone to a degree, I would guess. I mean, have you noticed that over the last 12 months?

SPEAKER_00 4:08

I I've thought about it a lot. Um and well firstly I'd say that I feel, I'm being really honest, I feel like I've overprotected people. Um so I'll take, I'll take, I can use Maggie as an example, maybe. I would um think, oh, is she is she doing too much? Is she overworking? But then I went on holiday for uh a month. I went to New Zealand for a month in January, and I said we'd agreed, just contact me if you need anything, just go with it. And she just flew. And I was thinking, yeah, maybe by being around, always being available, you you limit what they people feel they can do. Um, so I do think there's a middle ground. I think I think there is a middle ground. Um just telling sure. Um so but no, I probably would do it slightly differently. I would set it up that look, this is this is the outcome I'm looking for. Um go for it. You know, obviously you have the learning objectives first and put them through that, but then let them do it the way that they would they think is the right way to do it. Give them, I suppose it's empowering, isn't it? Um, and then if let them come to me and and also you keep you know keep an eye if you need to stare someone. I've noticed that with training someone new, if you do it slowly, step by step, um the outcome is different to saying, okay, give them a few weeks training, go for it. But I'm right here if you need anything. Yeah, that seems to work better. So perhaps I'm limiting not limiting. I don't I wouldn't say I um, you know, I I wanted to do it my way. I wanted to explore different ways of doing something. I'm taking that away from you.

SPEAKER_03 5:59

Yeah, I mean that you know, turn the ship around, David Mark.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Yes, I loved it.

SPEAKER_03 6:03

So, you know, add as a leadership, so allowing people to at different levels of skill set and being um definite about you are at this level and therefore you can take this level of decision and just come and tell me when you've done things rather than come and ask me if you you know what you should do as the bottom ladder. And I mean everything it's a balance, right? Yeah, so it's trying to find that balance. And I'm yeah, I mean, you know, sink or swim is ask for help, you're an adult, you know. If you need help, ask for help and I'll give you help. Yeah, if you don't switch, get on with it. We're all grown up and we all got stuff to do.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

That's still one of my favorite business books. And I use, I use uh with teams, I use obviously with um both Roland's and the other team, I use the deliberate action all the time, and that is so valuable. Um, and just that final check, like with an email, final check, you know, recipient address, what is attached, and it's just one of those industries where it's very fast-paced recruitment. So you need to have that final sense check. And it's a brilliant book. I still get the nudges on LinkedIn. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:12

So I mean, in terms of recruitment, then the what what's not gonna change in the next four or five years in Jersey recruitment? What do you think is not is gonna be the same?

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Not gonna change. I it's it's gearing up to well, you know, we've talked about this, haven't we? Sort of niche type recruitment. What what do we have when a world of AI is that relationship? I mean, Dan Hare and I did an article, I don't know, about six, seven years ago, that the relationship is going to become all important. And that's what I believe is going to get even better. The time spent on understanding businesses, building relationships. In terms of not change, uh, I think like many sectors, role uh recruitment's going through massive changes, probably the most it ever has.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

In what way?

SPEAKER_00 7:59

In the way that um, firstly, we uh we've we use a CRM system. Those CRM systems have changed dramatically. And um so I believe that they will also change the way people work. So for our team, we've always had a very like a volume business. Uh recruitment uh Rolands has always had volume. Some of the smaller ones are quite the opposite. So we are dealing with hundreds and hundreds of people and at peak times, hundreds and hundreds of jobs.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

So you're working at a pace. So that uh relationship or meeting people or um giving extra value is quite difficult. That will change, I think.

SPEAKER_03 8:43

So there's a Jerry Maguire moment where they get less clients, not shaming money, less clients, less, you know, better relationships, less clients and um getting fired in a coffee shop. How do you think so, in in a in a the shift from the volume model into fewer clients and and and fewer candidates, I mean, how how is do you think the value proposition for the the candidates and the clients is going to change in terms of the relationship with Rolands? Because historically, you know, there'd be 300 jobs and 600 people looking for them, and some of those 600 would be good for those, some of those 300. But typically those jobs now are um harder to fill because so many firms over here have their own people inside them. Yes. Um, or they're using different technology platforms. How do you think the really good recruitment agencies are going to be able to combat that in a way that adds value to the businesses they're working for?

SPEAKER_00 9:40

In my opinion, I believe that we'll we will combat it. Um it is difficult. There's portals, there's uh in-house recruiters, um, but so it depends on the clo what the client's wanting. So it won't be that we'll work for all of these clients. I think it'll end up we're working for far less, but they will know the market or the insights of the market the way that we do.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Um, so that uh they, you know, we talk to so many people every day, we talk to so many companies every day. So you get a very good picture.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Uh we can spend more time on analysing that for them. And statistically, even it's quite useful to know, you know, how many of these people are around, what what what's the main drive of people moving at the moment in that sector? Uh, so I believe that we'll we will give them more information, we'll know their teams better. I mean, in my ideal world would be we work with a smaller number of businesses, we know all their hiring managers, we know their directors, we know the the little things that they're looking for, we can tweak the way that we interview, we can do a video response to the competency-based question that is a key criteria. We can uh remove the first interview, they almost go on to the second interview when they meet them, saving a lot of time, getting more value. Um I the the in-house recruiters do a fantastic job and they will be around, I think, forever. Um, but the only thing I would say is whoever they're talking to knows that in-house for that company. If they're talking to us, they know that there are a number of different companies they could be looking at. Yeah. We're helping them with the advice on that. So they're telling us uh the true aspirations, they're telling an in-house recruiter why they want that particular job. It's an interview. Yeah, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 11:33

Yeah, it's a deeper understanding of what people actually want, um, because they're likely to be more open because there's no there's not a direct conflict of interest in that conversation.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

That's right, exactly. And the same with um, you know, same on the candidate side, um, the time we will have to actually fully understand what they're they're we we always talk about this, we understand what you're looking for, and we do, but then they can go deeper, can't we? And we can understand what's going on in this business. And I've had it before with really good clients where I'll interview someone, they're ideal for them, and they'll say, Oh no, no, I've heard bad things about that company. Um, and I can I can say to them, actually, that didn't happen. This is what happens. And I said, you know, half an hour of your life, go and have a chat. And um, they go and have a chat, and they the people I'm thinking of are still there years later. So we can help with all that. It becomes uh more much more relationship driven.

SPEAKER_03 12:31

So partnership, right? So we talk about recruitment partners, but actually, you know, what's currently what do you think of the main read that is there a blocker to creating a proper level of partnership at the moment with the clients?

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Of the clients? Oh, yes, yeah, there is. Some not. Um, some would be really eager for this. And in fact, we for a small number, we do this now. Um, the blocker will be uh companies that uh do sort of this arm's length recruitment. Um you don't have a conversation with anyone, it's uploaded to a portal. Okay. Uh they there's a uh something called speculative um CV. So if we've got someone, say I'll take uh I don't know, an operations head of operations, uh, and we've got someone we think would be absolutely amazing for that role and genuinely amazing. We don't we wouldn't do that with someone that wasn't. Um and they have a uh already have a process to follow, and that does not include uh additional CVs. Um if you can have a conversation, a five-minute conversation about it, um it could probably work for both sides, but at this point, it is totally, you don't have any opportunity to have that conversation. Or say you have someone that on paper doesn't maybe look very stable, they're they've moved around a little bit, they'll be disqualified based on that. Right. You can explain those circumstances and they add up and make sense. I I feel that they would get more choice, um, possibly not necessarily better quality, but more choice of better quality people if there was still the opportunity to have that conversation.

SPEAKER_03 14:10

And the reason for not being allowed to have put speculative CVs in is they don't want to be bombarded with not good CVs. Yes, exactly. So what's the obvious mitigation to that risk? I mean, is there is there one?

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Oh, there is, yes. I I I it's it's like anything. I mentioned the good lawyer having a having the right lawyer have the right recruitment.

SPEAKER_03 14:30

Okay, so like a preferred panel of recruiters who can do speculative.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Yeah, and and they and you know they'll never waste your time.

SPEAKER_03 14:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Um at the moment, we get uh we're part of, and some of the agreements, some of the relationships, I mean there's something like I haven't looked at it recently, something like 35 recruiter licenses in uh available working rather in Jersey. Not that many agencies, but there's a lot of agencies. Um I don't know how many people are aware of this, but um, outside of maybe HR and recruitment, is if whoever sends the CV or whoever gets a CV to a client fast, that's logged fast, is the person that they come back to and will interview through. So you've got this permanent sort of speedy response. So how the conflict with added value, quality, and um and you doing the uh sort of I don't know, giving the right information, you have to weigh that up with missing out completely. You know, we're still commercial, you need to get that CV there. So if you had less recruiters uh that you the the ones you trusted and you laid out exactly how you wanted to work and you know, know um you want the the really good matches, no wasting my time. Yeah, we keep stats on that. We know which companies, um, how many they interview, how many people are placed there. We know the ones that are getting we're getting it right with all the time.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Um so I'd I'd if I was someone, if I was not in recruitment and I had a business, that's what I'd do. I'd set up these good relationships and then make sure they worked well for me.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

And do you think there's a disconnect between the boardroom and what HR want? Is there uh you know, and how how could you help bridge that gap as an independent to it?

SPEAKER_00 16:24

Yeah, I think because of the volume that HR or resourcing are dealing with, I completely get why they've got portals and so on. I if if I was a if I was a director of a company, I would be cautious of relying on that as a way of recruiting uh for the reasons I've just said. Uh so I think there is a a way if there's uh but some some companies do it, I think, quite differently. They're in the middle. They have they can track, they have an applicant tracking system, so yeah, their type of portal. Uh but however, you also have someone to speak to and you talk through with them.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Uh so they know when a good person's coming through. Um they still have their their systems, their processes that make it easier, yeah. Uh, but they do keep the relationship alive. It it just it needs to have a relationship.

SPEAKER_03 17:15

And and you know, if you're working as a as a sort of recruitment director in a medium large size financial services business, uh how much time would you be spending with recruitment agencies as a board member? I mean, is it zero? Is it some?

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Like what would be the interesting question. Um there are a few companies that I've worked with that we've worked so successfully with. Um, and in all those companies, the MD reached out first. One of them, he arrived in the island, he was with a bank. He arrived on the island on the Monday. Um, I had a message from him the week before saying, I'm coming over, I want to understand where are the good people, how do I how do I recruit these people? Um, I didn't know him. Turned up uh at his office on he we booked him for the Wednesday. So it's his first week on the island. Um and he said, Why would I not? Um, you know, people are very important. Yeah. Um, so we we actually ended up talking for a whole afternoon, and we had a fantastic uh we've sort of built that sort of business with people and so on, and and we con continue to have very regular updates. Um, another one, um, I met uh with the MD at one point every few weeks.

SPEAKER_03 18:36

Wow. And so they were growing really fast.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

So they were growing, they were very new, set up and the MD had been very successful previously, setting up a finance company. We knew that it would be difficult because those those people with that experience were really hard to find. So, yeah, he was clever, he he wanted to look at other ways of doing this. We ended up going with down the graduate route. So they set up a very good internal program. We built that business, and I feel like it's a wee, I was very involved. Yes. Um, built that business on graduates, really good graduates uh that wanted finance, that understood finance. Um, and we had a way of we had a specific way of interviewing. Client service was especially important uh to them. That's what they wanted to base themselves on. That was their differentiator, outstanding service.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

Um, and that's what we recruited on. So they built, they still exist today and they're quite big.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Um, and uh that was where it all started. Okay, and um, so many of them went through to management level quite quickly. So while other companies potentially were six months later still trying to find an administrator in that in that area, um, they had six months of training. Conveyor belt. Yes, yeah, absolutely. And um, so it it worked really well for them. People are important. We always talk about being a business's greatest asset. Um, and uh so I would recommend actually being very involved.

SPEAKER_03 20:09

Yeah. Talking about um people are the greatest asset, we bought a software company. Yes, yes, we did, yes. Which is probably the products the greatest. Well, I don't know, maybe it's the people who create the create the products. But I mean what's your what's your recollections of how that all came together?

SPEAKER_00 20:27

Uh what was that was um, yeah, so that was that was well that thanks to you. What's the suggestion you made? I think well we used this the old software product, the desktop product in Rollins. We used to have a payroll bureau, which is actually one of the decisions I made really early on, got rid of uh payroll bureau.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Um so uh well, I knew the product, and it was at the time when I was thinking to myself, I really love I love business. I love to look at um sort of how businesses develop. And you mentioned it to City if I was interested, and I was, and obviously we you also reached out to um Adam and Ross. Adam and Ross. Um, so we all agreed, and actually it was the weirdest thing because when we were signing the contracts was the first time Adam Ross and I met.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

Really? Yes, so I was there's a lot of trust that's a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

I there was a huge amount of trust. But yeah, well widely so um and and that has been such um brilliant journey. And you know, you mentioned about people being the greatest asset. Definitely the great people have uh been involved in that. Um and it's been a um so it started off with we had one full time person, and now we have five, five, plus the guys directors. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So in total, if we include the directors, and so I've got I think it's ten or ten. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:56

Yeah, no, it's I mean it's growing the pro they've done such a good job with the Product that um yeah, it's it's really grown fast, and um there's no one else really doing what we're doing in the same way, in the Channel Islands at least. Um so I mean when you were making the decision to invest, was there I mean, I'm presuming you didn't do a discounted cash flow forecast and do a financial model of all of that stuff, but so what what was the basis of if someone's looking because there's a couple of business brokerages over here, often a friend will send me a PDF with a set of accounts from one of the brokers and say, What do you what do you think? Um, you know, what how did you make an assessment of yeah, I want to put this money in and I want to do this? Was there any was it a financial decision or what was the basis on which you got involved?

SPEAKER_00 22:43

Well, no. I um obviously uh uh as an overview, yes, could I afford it? Could I afford to lose it? Um so that was uh uh question. I do believe that after you've got experience in a certain sector, you do you can rely on your instincts.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

I think it is uh well is it's in this business books on on intuition and um instinct. I I feel I have good, really good instincts and it's when I have when I go against them and do something that I think, oh, but I should do this, is when I've fallen over. And I should morally should no, no, not morally. Uh even in terms of um would this be successful? Would this campaign be successful? Do I close this part of the business down? There is a there's a uh it's like understanding the market, it's a really strange thing. But there were two things that I thought would be really valuable for Jersey. One was the a really good, well, at that time cloud-based so uh software, yeah, uh payroll software. The other one, as you know, was salary survey. I've always been uh hugely keen on that. Um, so it was really thinking I trusted you. I thought the background for Ross and Ed, I mean, even though I hadn't met them, was pretty phenomenal. I met them and within half an hour I thought, wow, they're they're they're good.

SPEAKER_03 24:13

The biscuits.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

Yes, they do. Um, and so and I was excited, and I hadn't been sort of really excited about business or something new for a while. So I was I was 100% in.

SPEAKER_03 24:24

So it was it was it's not really a tangent, isn't it? Because to some extent you were doing it before as a client, so you'd have the understanding of value proposition. We all had different skill sets, so we were a bit because my history of being a minority shareholder and things has not typically gone well in the past. So um, but actually we you know we've managed to to most degrees sort of stayed with our different skill sets and you know, from terms of marketing and people, that's that's the the main thing there. Um I mean in terms of the the the next growth, you know, we're starting to look at the UK and supported by Jersey business to to do that. I mean, what what do you think is going to be the difference between success and failure of OSLE in the UK? What's what's gonna be the difference?

SPEAKER_00 25:09

OSELE, the way it's been built, is uh scalable. And we did some research, quite well, some research into the UK. And uh we I spoke to someone who was very involved in research in the UK, and they pointed out that even though you've got some very big providers, they we are we are the in the fortunate position of being brand new. So the system was just being built. It it's scalable to other jurisdictions. So every time we we uh re-develop a jurisdiction, it's not a bolt-on, it's not like um some of the big providers in the UK, things come out in government, you know, the the sort of CIS we were talking about, it's new things that come out or things that need to be added in. Uh, we have that in the developed in the platform. It's not like an extra bolt-on that they're trying to talk to each other. So there's this sort of speed, efficiency, some simple use of the product. Um, and we we are really it's it's being developed now. Uh we plan to roll it out uh later on this year. Um and the feedback we're getting on the product is pretty phenomenal. In fact, one of them that I can share was uh someone who works in HR, had implemented software products, payroll software products, and um said this is the first time I've seen a product that actually delivers what it said it's going to do. I mean, that's pretty phenomenal. So so um I I think we've got good we'd have to invest, obviously, but it's great for Jersey, you know, it's a Jersey-based uh SAS product that is going to be.

SPEAKER_03 26:50

Yeah, export hopefully export um across the world. In terms of the rebrand process, how what what went well? What are the lessons to learn from that? How how you know, and how do you think what's the next stage of rolling that out for people who are moving into the UK? What are the plans that have been developed and why have we developed those plans?

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Again, surround yourself with really good people. So we uh are looking at, yeah, it's an investment. It's it's a I suppose investments are always a a risk, but we we all feel very comfortable with that. Um the and and getting the right people, the right messaging. A lot of if you're going to the UK, I think you need to understand the market. And we need the experts to help us do that.

SPEAKER_03 27:36

And the and the comfort comes from not um all being rich. It comes from comes from just knowing the level of profitability and the subscription income and how much within you know cash flow forecasting out two or three years, we've got a set a real sense of what risk we can take and what risk we can't take. Oh, completely. Obviously, you've worked in lots of different businesses over the years. You've um worked in purely services-based business with um Rowlands, and now you've got a sash product business. What's the common ingredient in um you know, growth, being successful, managing things well? Is there something that you think that there's like a sort of north star that you always point to? What what how how do how do you think about it in terms of because that they've both gone really well? Yeah. So what is that? How why is that? And it's not sort of yeah, people. It's like, all right, people. Yes, but you know, what what what is the the underlying driver that makes things work better? It can't be luck, because I I don't, you know, don't believe in that. But there's well, it's some of it. But yes, you know, is there anything that you can think of or I do still think it's people, okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Uh but it's the way so OCLE, for example, is is a team that you s if you believe uh it's kind of that initial leader, the manager I had, he really believed in in people. And I that's probably the the difference. I um I know it can be a bit sounds a bit fluffy, but uh we so Oasley, for example, it's probably quite a good example. The everyone is aware of what's going on in the business. They uh they all want the same thing. And I just see that in action every time something, say a point's raised or an idea comes up, you you watch everyone from the most sort of we've got particularly junior people, but from the the the sort of lower level, if you like, right through to the directors, they are there looking for a solution or looking for an answer. And um, they're in it together. And I think perhaps they're the hierarchy's different. Okay. Uh Roland's is the same. Um, we have not really had a some sort of hierarchy. You know, we've got a good um, we have got a structure, yeah, but it's you know, people are always available. Yeah, uh, so it could be that. I'd I'd have to give it some more thought. One thing I do do I feel is important is humour and everything. We got through COVID with the team on on that, but I do think it's uh uh being able to you know every day there's some fun in that day, and that's also gonna sound a little bit fluffy, I know, but people have said to me, the worst of things happen, and they'll come into the office, and I'm saying, you know, you don't need to be here. And they will say, It's a destruction. I want you to be there. But the thing is, I will, I know I'll get a laugh today, and that's just what I need. So maybe there's something in that.

SPEAKER_03 30:50

Yeah, I mean, people you know, you've over the over the years you'll have worked with lots and lots of different people, and certainly as a leader of Rowlands, you know, there's uh, you know, I don't know how many you got up to 16 at one point, but within those 12 years, there'd have been lots of different 16s or the lots of different sexes. So I th I you know, my take on that, for it's I think it you know, there's there's a drive, and you know, you talked about um and I don't think you work what used the word humility earlier, but you know, taking the responsibility, knowing that you don't know best, and always trying to lead by example, but but also you know, very quickly fix problems. So you be proactive in the way that you create the strategy and then react fast when things are going well. And and we've all got different ways of of doing that. Everyone will always talk, yeah, yes, you need a good team. Okay. But there is always in a in a small business environment, everybody's going to to look to somebody, and you sort of talked about, you know, even if things are difficult, I need to be a rock for everybody else. And even that, I think some people are just like, you know, some days I go and it's like, How are you? Yeah, I'm three out of ten. It's all going to be and I would quantify it on a mathematical scale. Yeah, I'm seven today. That's great, you know, or whatever. I and I guess that's the other thing is that you know, a lot of people that would want to work for you wouldn't want to work for me necessarily. So there's a it's finding your finding your tribe maybe more than just good people. It's there's a uh a bond and a commonality of thaw, and you know, we've got you know, always working hard, but there's work hard, play hard, or there's work hard, then turn off. There's lots of different ways of and so it's finding finding something. It might be there.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

It's a really good question, and probably needs some.

SPEAKER_03 32:40

So someone's probably written a book and answered it, but we'll have to find that.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

They have to find their book, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_03 32:46

I mean, you know, in terms of so the the the podcast is called Hashtag Greater Business. What do you think is the difference between a a great business and a good business? Is there a distinction that's clear between those two things for you?

SPEAKER_00 32:59

So I was part of the um Jersey Good Business Charter, and I was I I thought that was going to be I thought that would be absolutely amazing because there is such a difference between good business and great business. Um great business it's the impact, the influence that you have as a business owner that maybe that's the privilege, I think.

SPEAKER_02 33:20

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

Yeah, because you can make a difference to an employee, you can make a difference to a charity. The decision sits with you. You know, you have such uh an opportunity to influence. So that's the I feel that's the great business. The good business is this is the business, you know, that's the bottom line. This is what we need to do. We need to make money. And but a great business goes beyond beyond that.

SPEAKER_03 33:48

Yes, it's Spider-Man's uncle with uh great uh power comes great responsibilities.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

That's right, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 33:56

Good stuff. Okay, and Jerry, thank you very much for your time. I've had a great time. So it doesn't care. I don't care if anybody watches it. Well, thanks for having me. So did I.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

Thank you.