Matt Rom: Leadership That Lasts - Authenticity, Purpose, and People

What does it mean to build something that lasts beyond your career?

In this episode of Uncommon Impact, University of Oklahoma Associate Vice President Matt Rom shares lessons on authentic leadership, creating meaningful workplace cultures, navigating change, and investing in people. Although he leads facilities management at one of the nation's largest universities, Matt's insights apply to leaders in every profession.

Our conversation explores:

•  Why authenticity is the foundation of trust 
•  Finding your "North Star" as a leader 
•  Leading people—not just managing work 
•  Creating environments where others can thrive 
•  Why you should tell people how much they've impacted your life 
•  Building a legacy that lasts beyond your position

About Nathan Whitaker

Nathan Whitaker is a #1 New York Times bestselling author, former NFL executive, Super Bowl champion, leadership speaker, and executive coach.

Learn more:

https://nathanwhitaker.com

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Uncommon Impact explores the people, experiences, and principles that shape extraordinary leaders and teams.

Transcript

Introduction

Nathan Whitaker 0:00

Today's Uncommon Impact guest is Matt Rom, Associate Vice President for Facilities Management at the University of Oklahoma. Matt and I met a few years ago when I spoke at CAPPA and MAPPA joint conference. Those are the central and midwestern regions of the facilities managers from K through 12 in higher education, all the way up from Texas to Oklahoma, all the way to Manitoba, Canada, and then including the Midwestern states as well. I gave the keynote in St. Louis and met Matt at that. He was head of CAPPA at the time. And then after my keynote, as I often do, if I've got some extra time at an event, I'll wander into other sessions. And so I went into a workshop on roofing materials and the like and was totally over my head. I had no idea what they're talking about. And then I wandered into Matt's talk and he was speaking, and it was all about leadership. And it wasn't but a minute or two before I was taking notes, different concepts. We've stayed in touch ever since. He's got a lot of really interesting thoughts about leadership from having spent his entire working career at the University of Oklahoma after he went to school there, working his way through. I hope you'll enjoy this conversation. He shares on authenticity, on navigating change, on finding your North Star. And then also about not only the importance of relationships, but in making sure that people know what you think of them and how important they are to you and have been on your journey. I hope you enjoy. Well, Matt, thanks so much for joining me on Uncommon Impact. It's great to have you here.

Matt Rom 1:29

Yeah, thank you for having me.

Nathan Whitaker 1:31

Absolutely. So I wanted to open with a question I've asked others before, and

The high school principal who shaped Matt's leadership

Nathan Whitaker 1:36

that is uh who shaped you in a meaningful way that you that you can remember when it comes to leadership and how did they do so?

Matt Rom 1:43

My answer is probably a little uncommon because it was my high school principal, and I think most high schoolers go through trying to avoid the principal and whatnot. Um, his name is Dr. Robert Franklin, and he epitomizes everything that a good leader should be. He's, you know, compassionate with people, authentic, really was interested in me as a student and interested in me as an adult. I remember when I was considering going back to doctoral school, um, he was the person I went and visited to talk about it. And from the from the moment I stepped into his office, it was enthusiasm and energy about how I should do this and and how it will lead me to great places in my life. And he's uh currently running for office. The testimonials that I'm seeing from former students and colleagues, and they all have the same aura about them of just how impactful he has been to their life. And so I saw that at a very young age, and I've tried to emulate that as I've grown up and you know, be authentic and care about people and invest in their success. And I think it's helped me get to where where I'm at as of following that lead. And, you know, I've done a really poor job of telling him how impactful he has been in my life. You know, we we've had the occasional conversation here and there. We we keep touch. I found it fitting that when I finished my dissertation, the the last thing you do is you write the acknowledgement section. You talk about the people that are important to your life. And there's three people in there. Uh, first off, obviously, is my family, uh, but then right next to them is him. And so writing about how influential he was in my life and kind of led me to that moment and continues to lead me many more years that I want to admit from when I stepped out of the uh halls of Charles Page High School in Sand Springs, Oklahoma. Um, but just such a great man and has really shaped just not me, but hundreds and hundreds of people from just a little small town. And it it to me, it goes to show you how one person can make such a big impact in such a small area. And I think we we get caught up in thinking leaders are these big uh transformational people that go across, you know, the nation or whatnot. And here is a man in a small town that has shaped the lives of hundreds of people. And that's just so so cool to me and has been so influential in my life.

Nathan Whitaker 4:16

That's fantastic. And that's um that probably speaks to um, as you mentioned, the the soft skill skills, if you will. I don't, I don't love that phrase. I mean, he's got a positional authority and leadership, but then to overcome that, like I I have a feeling there's a lot of principals, administrators who get into that because they want to work with kids, they want to help kids, but then they're so intimidating, so daunting, right? I mean, if I get sent to the dean's office, the principal's office, that's not good. Yeah. So for him to be able to overcome that with all the other things he does is is really impressive.

Matt Rom 4:50

And I think, you know, as you're saying, sometimes you're on one side or the other where you're either too big of their friend, and so you're not the good administrator, good principal, or you're too far on the I'm an administrator, I'm a principal, and now I'm scared to go to your office. I mean, don't get me wrong, he was the principal, and we respected his office and what he stood for and and the guidance that he was providing for us as an as a school. But at the same time, he was able to get that other side. And I will tell you, whenever you would see him at a football game or a basketball game or whatever it was, you were always the most important person that was in that arena or in that space. And it doesn't matter where it is, how long it's been since he's last seen you, you always get that feeling. And I think that's so special when someone can do that. And it doesn't feel inauthentic. It's just who he is every single time. And to me, that's what a great leader is is that you you have the same kind of interaction with them every single time that you know that's the core of them and not the facade, if you will, of just that interaction. That's not transactional, I guess is a great way to say it.

Nathan Whitaker 5:59

Yeah. And that's hard. That's hard to be a really good listener and to be locked in and to not be looking over somebody else's shoulder to see, you know, because he's got a gym full of people who know him or a football field full of people that know him. Uh that's quite a skill to do it all, let alone in that setting. All right, well, let me let me just then pivot a little bit or move it forward to so you then leave high school, you go to the University of Oklahoma, and basically never leave. Um, right? I mean, you've been there for uh quite a while. And what has that what has that been like to continue to carve out your space and to move into positions where you might have had more actual positional leadership? Uh, what's that been like as far as trying to take some of those lessons and and those skills and move move forward uh through

Finding purpose after 20 years at Oklahoma

Nathan Whitaker 6:48

time?

Matt Rom 6:48

When I came to the University of Oklahoma, I did probably what every freshman does. Man, I can't believe I have to spend four years here. Like I want to get my four done and I want to get out and go back to work, go do whatever I'm going to do, right? I'm out. Um, and now it's been 20 something years that I've been here. And I'll tell you, I still get the same feeling walking on this campus today as I did when I was an 18 or 19-year-old freshman the first day. I'm I'm awed by what I see and all that. But but to your question, it would probably be very easy to kind of get in a little bit of a rut being here every day for 20-something years. And I always have to kind of remind myself of why I'm doing what I'm doing, why I'm still here, because I know people say they love their job. I 100% love my job. I love everything about it, the people I work with, the things I do, the students I interact with. I get a little emotional in August and May every year. And just briefly, my two favorite days of the school year are move-in and graduation for basically the same reason. On move in, you have all these freshmen who are like me, coming from a small pond. You know, I grew up in a really tiny town, and all of a sudden I'm on the campus of the University of Oklahoma, and it's like, wow. And you see them, and their eyes are bright of all the possibilities they have now that they're here. And then you fast forward four years, and in May, when they're about to walk across that stage, they have that same look in their eye of wow, what possibilities I have as I now leave the university and go do whatever it is I'm going to do, whatever my skill set is, whether that's more education or entering the workforce. That is a powerful and magical feeling. And that's what kind of guides me. But I've had to remember not to get stale in what I do. I've been here a really long time. And so it's always that kind of gut check of is what I'm doing every day contributing to those two moments, to those two eye-opening, wow, what possibilities and my future and things like that. And so I think that's how I've stayed, you know, what I'll call fresh, if you will, for all these years is really understanding that. And that's really my North Star of what keeps me going, is really seeing those possibilities that we provide in higher education.

Nathan Whitaker 9:15

So that reminds me of a quote I heard recently uh from Al Michaels. And he talked about being a young broadcaster. And Curt Gowdy, I think, said to him, you know, don't ever lose the passion, kid, something along those lines. And and Al said, you know, he's 80, 81 maybe now, and he said, you know, I have to remind myself when I walk into the sporting event, whatever, whether it's the Olympics, Super Bowl, whatever, he says, I have to remind myself, like as a kid, if I could have gotten into this at all, let alone for free and not bought a ticket, I would have been thrilled. And and it feels the same. When we met in St. Louis at the uh CAPPA conference, I finished my keynote. I went and sat in on one of your workshops. And you said, and I'm not gonna get the quote exactly right, uh, but you said in facilities in higher education, we are in the business of creating environments for people to have uh magical experiences or transformative moments or whatever it is. But it wasn't just like, hey, yeah, we've got to make sure that the HVAC works and the lawns are mowed and the it was this larger vision that it seems like ties so much into this sense of wonder that you bring every day. Is that fair?

Matt Rom 10:26

Absolutely. One of the things,

Creating environments where people thrive

Matt Rom 10:28

and I say it at least once a day, much to people's chagrin, we're we're not a building business, we're a people business. And it's so easy to get caught up, as you said, in fixing the HVAC and putting the carpet down and making sure the building's clean and the lights work and all that. And all those things are so incredibly important. But that's secondary to why we're here. Yes, that's what we do to get there, but what we're doing is exactly right, creating those environments for our community to do their thing, whether they're visiting or studying or whatnot. And I and I tell this story and I've told it for years. Uh, when I was um an undergrad, I went to school with uh a girl named uh Emily. And Emily was a few years older than me, and we were in the kind of same social group, if you will, and um, very, very smart and all that. She's now a you know, tenured professor in a college in the north, and she's doing cancer research. And if anybody is going to find a cure, it's her. But she honed her skills in an OU building. And, you know, that that's obviously a very extreme example, but it shows that what happens in our spaces matter. And so our electricians, our HVAC uh technicians, things like that, they contribute to that. They provide a space where thousands upon thousands of students, just like in Emily, can prepare themselves to go really make seismic change in the world. And if you listen to our president speak, he will say, we change lives. I mean, that's what we do at the University of Oklahoma. And facilities management is just a small part of that of creating the space where they can do that. About a year ago, I finally reached out to Emily, and we hadn't spoken since uh we left undergrad. And I told her that I tell that story. And I said, you know, I guess it's all right for me to ask permission 20 years later if I can tell this story to everybody. And she was so humbled that I would think of her and do that. And she talked about her fondness of being on this campus and what the campus meant. And that's just one testimonial to what these spaces bring.

Nathan Whitaker 12:35

I love that. And I love the idea of casting a vision. By the way, I I love that you told her. Uh, a couple years ago, I had the chance to meet Stacey King, who uh, of course, great University of Oklahoma grad, great NBA player, great broadcaster, uh, recently passed away. Uh so such a devastating loss. But I had a chance to tell him that I used him in my talks with his great lesson on being a part of a team. Great that you did that. Um, I had a chance to do that. And then it's a great observation, too, as far as knowing why you're doing what you're doing, having that sense of purpose and spreading that to uh because otherwise I think so often, and it doesn't matter to me, the field we're in, whether it's higher education or coaching or banking or whatever it may be, if we're not casting a vision and having some sense of wonder or appreciation or whatever, it everybody's gonna get

Tell people the impact they've had on your life

Nathan Whitaker 13:27

stale.

Matt Rom 13:27

I think that all of us have these influential people in our lives, and we we we almost do each other a disservice that we don't tell people. And I remember you spoke about CAPPA where we were, and I was at an APPA event. So APPA, for for your audience, is is a a national organization for facilities management folks, right? That's just putting it very simply. Um, I know that our our CEO would be very upset with me of making it that generic, but for for the time being. Um anyway, we were sitting around table and we were all reminiscing about a particular individual who was living. And finally I said, Have any of us ever told him the stuff we're saying around this table? And we all just looked at each other. And so we called him. You know, it's nine o'clock at night, and so we we call him and he picks up and we're like, hey, you're on speakerphone at a table full of 20 people, and we've just spent the last 40 minutes talking about you and what you meant to us. And so I encourage people all the time, if they have those people in their lives that have been influential and have guided them and and and helped shape them or whatnot, to really reach out and let them know because the kind of the eulogy problem of when someone passes, we spend all this time talking about how great they were. And then we say, Well, man, I really wish I would have told them that four weeks ago. Right. And so you had the opportunity to tell uh Stacey King, but you know, who sadly is not with us anymore. Thankfully, you had that opportunity to say that. And I've and I've taken a much more diligent approach to reaching out to those influential people and saying, Hey, I don't know if you know this, but this is how you contributed to my life. And I've never had one go, uh, well, okay, you know, they they're always just so glad to hear that. I think it brightens their day and probably strengthens them as a leader themselves, knowing they have that impact on people.

Nathan Whitaker 15:16

That's great. I love that reminder. I'm just speaking off the top of my head here because I don't do it enough, but but my impression is, you know, and I I love the quote, how do you know if somebody needs encouragement? If they're breathing. But whether folks are at the top of the pyramid, I I recently was with folks who were hedge fund managers and law professors and tradesmen and high school teachers, and every single person in this group as we went around felt somewhat isolated. Uh, was surprised to hear how much people appreciated them. But we often project onto everybody else. Well, yeah, I feel I feel this way. I would love it if somebody told me that, but I'm sure they know. So it's a good reminder that they don't we should act on that. Let me ask you a question about being at uh Oklahoma for so long and trying to cast this vision and the like,

Leading change without losing people

Nathan Whitaker 16:04

are you always um my guess is that you're always looking to tweak, improve, learn, look for better ways. Does it get hard at times when you've been there doing this for so long and everybody's like, look, this is how we do it. We know we know what it is. Um is it hard to implement change or tweaks, or or did you master it 20 years ago and there's nothing to change?

Matt Rom 16:24

Oh, it's extremely hard. And I have the luxury that I oversee around 400 to 500 team members, depending on the season. Um, and quite a few of them are are seasoned. They've they've worked here for a long time, and that is such a luxury to have in the the industry I work in. It's it's becoming less and less common. But one of the byproducts of that is there's a lot of institutional knowledge and a lot of institutional way of doing things. And so when you come in and you you try to tweak, uh, you do you do face some of that resistance. And, you know, part of the way I overcome that is building equity. You know, I'll call it sweat equity, if you will. So getting out and and really understanding what our people are doing and seeing and things like that. But I I approach it as never stop learning as well. So just just a recent example um is I was talking to our band director. So, you know, Oklahoma's known for The Pride of Oklahoma. It's a wonderful uh marching band. And just chatting with their director, he mentioned the development of committees. So then they're structured. They have student-led committees who who do odds and ends and make decisions and you know, kind of peer-led initiatives. Well, we brought that into facilities management. And so now we have a policies committee and we have a recognition committee and a special events committee. And so we're inviting our people to have that stake in the game. And and and this is a recent change we've done the last three or four years, and we're we're seeing fruits of that. We're seeing more engagement amongst our teams, development of leaders. You know, uh the individual who runs our um events committee is is a great showman and gets out there and gets people going and really has elevated uh some of our activities. And so that was kind of a new idea that I I'll be honest, I never would have thought of on my own. And so I think it's really important, especially as you become a more tenured leader, is to always be learning. And um we we had a president here at the university who his mantra is, "we reserve the right to never stop learning as leaders." And you know, I believe highly in that, that maybe what I'm doing today works in 2026, but it may not work in 2028. And I always have to be out there kind of doing what you did uh at the CAPPA conference in St. Louis, just sitting in on things that may not be relevant to me and what I'm doing, but I might pick up a nugget. And that's one of my favorite things to do is go find a nugget and say, how can I take this entire organization and move it forward? And that's what I'm always thinking about is man, we're we're really good at what we do here, but how can I move it forward? How can I stay one or two steps ahead as a leader? Because as many people know, higher education is in a very uh actively changing climate in terms of enrollment demographics and funding sources and things like that. And so, how can I, as a facilities leader, be prepared for the things that are coming down the pike on the other side and keep kind of reinventing ourselves? But it is it is difficult at times because you know, our our folks just want to go go fix HVAC units and go fix light bulbs and things like that. They're like, I don't have time for all that. And so the challenging part is showing them that vision of why continuing to adapt and move forward is so important for what we do.

Finding your North Star

Nathan Whitaker 19:48

Let me ask you a question about then um balance, and you're involved in things like CAPPA and other things. I know you're involved in a lot of community service items in and around the area. How do you figure out as a as a leader, as a parent, as a spouse, whatever it may be, how do you figure out what things to say yes to, what things to say no to, what things make sense for you?

Matt Rom 20:13

Yeah, I have kind of a hierarchy of the things that are important in my life. And so it goes, you know, faith, family, profession, and then we start getting into things. So, you know, I'm a scout leader, I'm you know, involved in Masonic organizations, things like that. And so they're they're on a hierarchy and it's very well known, and it is agreed upon with my spouse uh what that hierarchy is. And the hierarchy is non-negotiable. And so when when I look at things and I say, I have two events at the same time, I look at the hierarchy and where it is in hierarchy wins always, because we've set it up in a way that kind of follows my value system. And so, you know, first and foremost, you know, a man of God, but then uh a spouse and a dad, and then going going from there. And, you know, when people always say, What's your greatest legacy? What do you want to be? I will always say, My kids, my my kids are my legacy because when I'm when I'm long gone, the University of Oklahoma is going to move on. You know, when I'm long gone, the the Cub Scout pack is gonna move on. But my kids will be here, and what I instill in them will continue to to grow and be fruitful. And so that's how I really uh guide it. And I just think it's important for you know a leader to know what is that North Star. And I use that term a lot. What's your North Star, that guiding light of where you're going? And every time something comes up, you say, Does me doing this enhance that thing, whatever that thing is? And if it doesn't, that's a good indication of where it's time to say no.

Nathan Whitaker 21:51

I love that. I love coming back to that North Star, whether it's the North Star in your professional life or in your overall life and your hierarchy, because it's so easy. At least for me. Because people usually don't come to you with, hey, I've got something really lousy, but if you've got some extra time, let's do it. Right. It's it's often their North Star or whatever it may be that that they want you to get involved with. And so it sometimes, at least for me, gets really hard the way to say no to whatever when it feels like, well, okay, this is a good thing. But then I find myself going, okay, I've said yes to too many things, and that means I'm not doing the things that I should be doing, probably.

Matt Rom 22:30

And I found myself in that situation. That's why I had to kind of get to this point, is because I was saying yes to things and I was, you know, meeting the commitment in spirit. I was there, I did whatever the thing was that I said I would do, but I found that I wasn't giving it 100% of my effort. And so I just had to make a decision that if I couldn't give all of me to whatever that thing is, it was a disservice to somebody to say yes to do it. And so I would rather say, I can't, let me help you find someone who can or something like that, than to say I will and only go in 60% of the life.

Nathan Whitaker 23:17

Let me ask you a question about so I do fair amount of speaking with trade associations or other professional groups. We talked a little bit about the national APPA and great leadership with Lalit. How do you approach your service there and and figure, okay, we're just putting on a couple events a year, let me help those work. Or, hey, you know, I wonder if this could work a little better. And do you dig in and try to try to lead and cast a vision the way you would in other areas? Or do you just kind of how do you how do you figure out when to get involved and when to kind of let things let things ride, whether it's CAPPA or something else?

Speaker 23:54

Yeah, so I think that uh taking CAPPA and APPA and whatnot and and being involved in those things, I I really try to focus on where I can benefit the organization the most. These are big mammoth organizations, a lot of schools doing a lot of different things. And so I always approach it as this is what I've seen, this is what works for me, with always a disclaimer of, but it might not work for you. I talk about what are the environmental conditions in the world I work in, being you know, a southern state and the central part of America, uh, with you know these geopolitical things and whatnot. So what I do works here because of this reason. You may go 400 miles to the east, west, south, or north, and it may not work there because of something completely different. And so I spend a lot of time trying to do

Investing in the next generation of leaders

Speaker 24:45

that. The other thing I do a lot of in in APPA, particularly, is I train. So I have just the complete honor and pleasure of being a facilitator of their uh course called Supervisors Toolkit. And it is a training really geared for introductory level supervisors. And I believe wholeheartedly that the people that have the most impact in my profession are that first line supervisor and that they control what happens in our departments. And so having the ability to invest in them and build them, and I always encourage them, reach out. And a lot of them, I think, think, oh, it's lip service. So what I'll do is, you know, six months down the road or whatever, I'll reach back out to them and say, hey, you know, we had this training. I told you reach out if you have any questions. I'm interested in knowing how things are going. And I'll I'll get some replies back and start some conversations. And I've had the opportunity to mentor just a few people that over the years that are new in their leadership journey. And I do that because when I was new, I had a mentor who was in the department, spent a considerable amount of time teaching and showing you the ropes and really creating the leader that I am today. And so it's all about give back for me. And if if I can give back a tenth of what I've taken, um, I think I could do some real good.

Nathan Whitaker 26:13

I love that. And I love the idea of you being the one to force the action, right? It's one thing to say, please reach out. It's another thing to, okay, you haven't, let me be the one to do this. So I'm not surprised to hear that answer of how much you enjoy helping build into others and mentor, but then also taking kind of a look at things and making sure that you approach things with the sense of like, if there's something we can do here, if there's something I can help with, but it may not work for you, it comes back to this idea of humility that keeps coming out in your answers, this idea that I can always be learning. I think we can sometimes lose sight of that. You clearly have this idea that you can be learning throughout. Let me ask you one more thing along those lines. Have there been things you've learned, have there been habits or disciplines along the way where somebody did something and you and you were like, hey, that's a that's a really great idea, and it's something that our listeners might adopt, or conversely, there are times when I hear something and I'm like, that's great. And then I do it for three months, and I'm like, that doesn't fit me at all. Any anything you've run across that's been good or bad?

Matt Rom 27:12

Yeah, I you know, I think the way I'll answer is this way is early in my in my career, I would see a leader who would do something one way, and they would just say, you know, or I'd see them interact a certain way or stay organized a certain way or whatever. And I would say, well, that must be the way I do it. And it's one of those one size doesn't fit all mentalities in leadership. And so I would just encourage, encourage your listeners to really find leaders and and listen to multiple ones multiple times and really see what are those things that are reoccurring. Because sometimes I pick up on that one thing that's almost kind of like a little throwaway. Like they say it, but it's it's just like a little small piece of who they are. And I'm like, okay, that's the thing that's so important. And it's just a little nuance. I I spend a lot of time uh on either YouTube or in conferences or uh TED Talks or wherever, just listening to these influential people and what they have to say and kind of building into it. But

Authenticity: the mark of great leadership

Matt Rom 28:14

the one thing that has always come up over and over and over is being authentic. And I I will tell you that people know when you're not in authentic. It's it's a feeling, right? When actions don't match your words, when you are not consistent in how you act or what you say or how you approach the world, things like that. When it feels transactional, people know. And that's the one thing I've kind of seen from most great leaders that I've I've witnessed live or or watching online, is that they're authentic people. And you can predict what they're gonna do every single time, no matter what the situation is. And to me, that's what makes a super strong leader is that authenticity and how they work.

Nathan Whitaker 28:59

Love it, love it. Authenticity, humility. And it comes back to you listening, whether it's online or whatever, or listening to your high school principal who was locked in on you and remained focused on you. And he thought, well, that's a takeaway for me, this authenticity just being in the moment. Thanks. The last question before I let you go. The title is Uncommon Impact.

What Uncommon Impact means

Nathan Whitaker 29:21

What is uncommon impact? How do you interpret that, at least where you are in your life right now?

Matt Rom 29:25

So I really think about it as is what I'm doing going to last past me? And sometimes I think leaders get so caught up in how do I change the here and now? And it's and I and I've used the word transactional quite a bit because I think about that a lot. Is this a transactional thing or is it a reformative thing, if you will? And so is what I'm doing, will it still matter in five years? Will it improve people and not just kind of what we're doing on a day-to-day basis as a university? And does it just raise a standard for people? And so when I think about that uncommon impact, it's having a lasting and uh visible and meaningful change in the people that we work with. You know, that's what I that's what we're trying to do here. What I try to do is is yeah, what happens today and tomorrow is so important. Don't get me wrong. I mean, that's part of being a leader is you have to drive the ship every day, but you also have to be looking out to the port of call that you're coming into. And are you are you gonna be able to dock that ship when the time comes?

Nathan Whitaker 30:28

I love that. That whether it's authenticity or whatever it may be, this idea of why you're doing what you're doing, right? Whether it was facility spaces for somebody to go out and and do great, great work in medicine or whatever it may be down the line, or because your kids are going to be your lasting legacy, or the people you interact with, or the people that you call and say, by the way, 20 of us are sitting here talking about you. Those are a lot of the things that live on, not to mention the day to day as they build into that. So thanks so much for taking the time to share that and to hopefully create something here that'll live on in a bunch of other people. And so, um, Matt, thanks so much for taking your time and thanks for joining me on Uncommon Impact.

Matt Rom 31:08

Thanks for having me.