Leading From the Middle: Bob Starkey on Hard Conversations, the Process & Why Failure Is Your Best Friend

What does it take to lead when you’re not the one in charge? In the debut episode of Lessons From The Sidelines, Coach Greg Brown sits down with Bob Starkey — associate head coach for LSU women’s basketball and one of the most respected lifelong assistants in the game — for a candid conversation about leading from the middle.

Over four-plus decades alongside Hall of Famers like Dale Brown, Sue Gunter, and Kim Mulkey, Bob has built a career on a rare idea: that the best leaders aren’t always the ones with their name on the door. He and Greg get into the hard conversations most leaders avoid, why he attaches his emotions to the process instead of the result, how he builds a staff the way he’d recruit a team, and the difference between coaching a team and running a program.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

I spent over 30 years coaching on the sidelines from the high school level to more than 20 years coaching Division I women's basketball. And along the way, I've had the opportunity to work alongside three Hall of Fame coaches and some awesome assistant coaches. And here's what I can tell you those lessons that made those coaches great didn't just live on the court or on the field. They showed up in how they lived every day and how they led their people, how they built culture, how they handled adversity, and how they made decisions when the stakes were the highest. Those lessons translate to business, leadership, and life. And that's what this podcast is going to be all about. So welcome to Lessons from the Sideline. I'm Greg Brown. In every episode, we're going to go inside the minds of elite performers, championship coaches, and corporate leaders, successful entrepreneurs to uncover what actually drives sustained success, the moments of pressure, failure, and breakthrough that lead and shape leaders at every level. We're going to dig into leadership, team dynamics, communication, resilience, and what it takes to perform when it matters most. So whether you're leading a team, building a business, or simply trying to get it from where you are to where you want to be, this is the podcast for you. This first episode of Lessons of the Sideline Today is a special one for me. My guest is someone I've known since my college days. We've competed against each other, worked on the same staff, and he's not just a friend, but he's one of my most trusted mentors. Bob Starkey has spent more than 30 years coaching in the SEC. He's been a part of 900 collegiate wins, 27 NCAA tournaments, and five consecutive women's Final Four appearances, along with a 2023 national championship. He's coached Taquille O'Neal, Simone Augustus, Sylvia Fowles, players who went on to win NBA championships, WNBA titles, and Olympic gold medals. He's one of the most respected minds when it comes to the craft of coaching, authored numerous books, runs a coaching blog, and a genuine student of the game every single day. He's passionate about sharing the history of the game and developing those around it. Today you'll hear about leading through a crisis, the nonprofit business, the difference between coaching and running a program, and so much more. Enjoy today's podcast with Coach Box Barking. All right, can you hear me there? This is two guys we don't it needs to be completely audio, not video, I think, right here.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Faces made for radio.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

You doing all right?

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Yeah, doing good, getting ready for a visit.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Of course. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Insane, brother. It's insane. This is a good visit. She's already committed. It's just time. Yeah, backup point guard from Tennessee Tech. It's actually a steal. We need a backup point guard, and it's hard to convince a good player to come in and play behind somebody. So this is a really good pickup for us.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

That's good. That's good. Well, I appreciate it. We uh we'll get this going right here. I'm excited about this opportunity. I think it's gonna be I think it's gonna be a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

I just hope it doesn't go off the rails at some point.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

We'll try not to today. Now we need to have a podcast where it's it's uh where we can go off the rails. That's that would be the key.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

That secret book of Meyer notes.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Yes. That I don't know how we could do it or whatever, but that would be that'd be the last thing we ever did, but it would be a good one for sure. All right then. All right, let's get started. By one, I appreciate it. Um hit you off with a uh high fastball right here to start it off with us. We've both been doing this a long time, you a little bit longer than me, but uh what's something you've changed your mind over or you've taken a different perspective with over the last, let's say, ten years?

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Wow, that's a great question. Um I at the risk of I I I don't want to say that I've softened as a coach. But but but I do think I'm a little bit more reasonable and listen a little bit longer to kids than I used to. I'm always a big believer in relationship-based coaching and uh understanding where kids are coming from because but with with the nature of everything, especially when you take into consideration social media and uh all the various factors that are affecting kids, I I I think we have to do a a greater deep dive into why kids feel the way that they feel. So uh I listen, but I I think I work a little harder at trying to get, you know, to the to the meat of the thing.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Do you on that note, do you think your perspective, I know mine has changed. And I remember being at AM talking to some of those old guys that had played for Coach Bryant and just how you know you you didn't get water, you know, that that it was great if you got an apple that day. And obviously that was a sign of toughness. It was also a sign they didn't know what they didn't know. So do you think that what we used to consider, well, that's just soft coaching now is a little bit more, for lack of a better term, enlightenment. We now know more stuff about how what we say affects uh how we think, how how our thinking is why how we're wired in general. Um taking those things into consideration, some would feel as soft, but really it's just a better idea of how we're wired and operate. Thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Well, I think we've evolved a little bit more. Uh but I do I do also I think there's a fine line. Uh I I think some of the things we've learned about, like for instance, uh uh rest and recovery. Uh you know, back in the day, you know, I you gotta be tough enough to get up. You know, the thing is we we will still get our kids up early in the morning uh for some workouts. And not just because we think it develops a little bit of toughness, but because we think it's a little bit more preparation for life. I mean, I think about, you know, I took a flight two weeks ago and uh we took off at six o'clock in the morning, so that pilot was probably up at four thirty. Uh my wife had uh her first breast cancer surgery at five forty-five in the morning. Uh so I know that surgeon was up a little bit before then. Uh there's certain things there's just a fine line uh in in evolving uh but not avoiding hard things, which I think is what scares me the most about today's generation, uh, especially if we were to talk about portal situations, stuff where kids escaped hard, and I worry about them being able to handle hard things when they when the basketball's done.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Let me let me jump onto that and take it from a player's per not a player's handling hard things, but coaches. Um I mean, that's one of the things I've seen just and talked to coaches about is that I think a lot of coaches right now that struggle having difficult conversation with kids about tough situations or tough things because of the port or because of social media. But that there's never a time that we don't need honest and open communication with trust. Um, thoughts going from there.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Well, 100%. And I'm blessed to work for a Hall of Fame coach, Kim Malkin. And the thing that I think uh impressed me the most from the time that I joined her staff is she has absolutely no issue with confrontation. Matter of fact, she thinks it's important to happen early in the process so we can find uh you know answers and that we can move forward. Uh I I do think the way that we we handle those conversations may have changed a little bit. Uh but if if you're not having difficult conversations with those in your organization, it's only going to manifest itself. And I do think you you know, we got a lot of young coaches now that are afraid of losing their jobs. And so therefore that can kind of cloud their judgment. You know, I don't want to lose this player because I had a hard conversation with them. Well, sometimes you have to be prepared to lose your job or lose a game or lose a player in order to do the right thing. Uh confrontation doesn't need to be yelling and screaming and accusations. It it just needs to be bringing out the facts and and making sure both parties have a conversation in it so you can get some answers. But uh hard still hard has to be part of the process if your organization wants to succeed and if you want to create successful people in your organization.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

It's no different. The hard conversations are going to be in your personal life with your marriage, or it's going to be with your kids, or it's going to be with whether you're a corporate leader. You don't avoid hard things physically or socially or spiritually or whatever aspect of your life you're in.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

And that's why it's so critical as coaches we do that. I mean, really and truly, the thing that's kept me in this thing for 41 years is I truly believe I can make a difference on somebody after they leave the program. You know, there's a uh a great quote by uh Lude Olson, who was a Hall of Fame coach of Arizona. They asked him, uh he just signed a uh, you know, a top five recruiting class, and somebody asked him to evaluate, and uh, he said, I'll let you know 20 years from now. And if you truly care about coaching and developing, that's when you find out if you did your job right.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Let me ask you this. We've worked with players at at all levels, from high school or middle school to the the best of the best and the most elite player is Hall of Famers. And and this goes on a corporate side too. If you're at a mid-major, most likely, not to say that you can't play in the WNBA or professionally from mid-major, but most likely a lot of those players have different goals at graduation, as opposed to most of the players going to LHU have a different set of goals afterwards. Fine. I guess my question, and the same thing, if you're working at uh a Fortune 50 company, you know, you're probably working with people who are trying to move up that corporate ladder. You could be in a job as a manager, a leader where the people are just there to work and fend for their family and supply and do things like that. How do you go about motivating and and I hate I hate the motive but that word, but of leading people who have different sets of goals?

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Well, I think if you're you're looking to motivate or inspire or develop somebody, you you have to have a relationship with that person, and part of that relationship is you have to do a deep dive in what their deeper why is. Uh, you know, I I anytime I have a conversation with a player and they tell me their goal is to play in the WNBA, I'll stop the conversation. I said, You're you're so much greater than that. There's so much more that basketball can do for you than possibly provide you a few years of playing professionally. A basketball is simply a tool that should be able to take you to greater places and do greater things. And then we got to start having conversations on what those things can be. There's a lot of important things to to young people. Uh sometimes they they understand it very early, sometimes it's part of the process. Um and I am very process oriented. Uh, you know, if your goal is to play in the WNBA, that's fine, but it it needs to be about the process and the work you do each and every single day in every facet of your life. And if that transpires, that's fine. But again, uh basketball's just it's just something you you know, you you want to use basketball, you don't want to let basketball use you, and sometimes kids lose sight of that. Sometimes we as coaches lose sight of that as well.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Let me ask you this on that process-oriented note. I talked to Kevin Oko one time and asked him about it, and he said that the key to the being the process part of it was that you have to attach your emotion to the process, not your emotion to the result. As a competitive coach in person, how do you go about doing that as well as teaching that to your players?

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Well, it it takes complete buy-in, absolutely complete buy-in. I I see a lot of coaches all over the country talk process, but then you you hear their press conferences or their talks to their teams or and and and they're not there yet. You know, I obviously somebody that uh had a great impact on me and my philosophy of the process was Coach Saban. I first learned about the process when he was a football coach here at LSU and I was during my first tour duty. Uh you you it it takes a deep buy-in to understanding what that really means. And it it doesn't mean you're still not trying to win the ball game. It just means that you have a greater understanding of how and that you understand that the thought of winning gets in the way of you doing the things that you need to do to win. It also doesn't mean uh that you know you're not upset when you lose. Uh you know, you know, those emotions are still going to be there. But it takes great discipline and great buy-in to believe in the process during the game and after the game, uh, in your thoughts and your preparation and the way you proceed before and after ball games.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Because if you don't, you're teaching like Coach Caleb talked about, don't teach a conflicting habit. You're saying process in one thing, and then all you're talking about is the result without and your result is perfectly designed, your process is perfectly designed to get the result that you're getting. So it it that would confuse the players.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

And I think that happens a lot. You know, John Wood never used the word winning with his team. Never did. He talked about competing and executing and excellence and habits and fundamentals, but he never talked about winning. The Saban, I think, has said it the most. Uh, you know, the more you think about winning, the more it gets in the way of actually doing that which you want.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

And Coach Meyer would say, you know, don't think about winning, think about ways to win. And you're back to those process parts. On that note, and and we've both been fortunate to work with great, great people, Hall of Famers. And I'm talking to a lot of guys that are high school coaches or even assistants that are moving into from being a very successful assistant to being a head coach, and I've done that as well. Um, what would you say is the difference in your experience of coaching a team versus running a program? Because I think there's a difference between the two.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Huge, huge difference. Uh coaching the team to me is your day-to-day working and relationship with your players and those directly, whether it's the the other members of your staff, managers, trainers. Uh running a program deals with everything from your administration uh to the media, uh, to the Board of Supervisors of your university, uh, to your boosters. I mean, it's all encompassing when you're running an entire program. Uh and and I have I have been blessed to work with several Hall of Fame coaches, and uh I'm really fortunate at the end of my career that I'm working with Kim because I don't know I've seen anybody that runs an organization better than she does. Uh she absolutely knows how to delegate, uh, she knows what to oversee, uh, she knows how much freedom to give to different people, and she understands the big picture. She's amazing dealing with the media, with boosters, uh, with the administration all those things that you have to be good at if you want to have a program of excellence. But to me, that's that's a lot of responsibility. You know, a lot of people ask me why I've always remained an assistant coach, and it's because I don't really get excited about all those other hats that you have to wear. I I I just enjoy the day-to-day process of of working with a team.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Do you think that the coaches, and I say get it wrong, but but have struggled with that is because they don't understand all the time and detail that it takes to do all the things outside of what we would call basketball.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

I do. And you know, uh back in the day, uh you know that's old people say, uh you you worked your way up. You started at at a low level, uh a small college, you know. I started at NAI school, you started at an NAI school, and uh and a lot of times in those places, you know, when I started at West Virginia State College, I was the assistant coach and uh I did the laundry, uh, I cleaned the floors, uh, I set up the uh uh gym on game day, uh, and then I still had to do practice and watch film and all that. So you get a little bit of taste of that, but you you you see all those things that go into being a head coach, where today we have a generation that that just wants to jump right into being a head coach or maybe be an assistant coach for a couple years and think they're ready until you you actually sit in that chair. I I I think it can be overwhelming unless you take a path where you can observe and see things from other coaches uh that have done it well. And even coaches from haven't done it well, you you could you can learn from other people's mistakes, and in fact, that should be a priority of you is is to learn from other people's mistakes.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

On that part of experience, you know, now since we grew up, or I say grew up, came through and and and growing by working camps. You know, I was a coach Meyer. We worked from June till August, and then, you know, once I got into high school coaching, I would work coaches' camps, but then would end up at Utah or Carolina or wherever. That that little farm system is gone the way I see it now. A lot of schools don't run camps, they certainly are not doing a lot of a teaching camps. There's not a lot of it's just time. And I was talking with a friend of mine, we said, you know, we came out of Lipscomb probably with 15 years of experience of teaching because you were teaching every single day for four straight years. What how now can young coaches coming out of college try to figure out there's tons of resources to watch and listen to, this would be one or whatever, but to get that teaching experience that I think a lot of coaches don't have the opportunity to now.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Well, I I wouldn't give up on the on the camp angle, but it it it certainly has changed. Um I I am part of the reason I'm here is because I work nine straight summers of camp at Old Dominion for Marianne Stanley. And uh again, I I remember one year Marianne was working with USA basketball, and she gave every camp coach, she was running T game with her Olympic team, and she gave each camp coach uh a part of the T game to run with her camp team, and then then we had meetings in the evening to ask what we thought. Uh the networking at camps is a huge part. But but now you're right, there's few opportunities, you know. Uh uh something people don't understand, there's an NCAA rule. We're not allowed to hire a coach if they might have a player that we recruit in the next two or three years, which is asinine. But that that's that's a whole nother story. Um I think the best way to teach is to teach. And and that that may mean you start out on the high school level or a small college level, or maybe you volunteer somewhere. And if you can't actually get experience on the floor, one of my absolute favorite things to do is go observe practice. Uh even even today, I'll find a a team that's touring in the summer uh and go watch them practice. It's hard, obviously hard for me to do during the season, but in in June and July and August when when you know one of my favorite stories is Gail Gustin Coors when she was at Duke and Sherry Cole when she was at Oklahoma. I went and w I was there for an entire week watching them practice and asking questions. I mean, just drove them nuts with all the questions I had. Got there early to see how they set up. Um I would find a mentor or two. Uh, and if it was if it was teaching that I felt I needed to improve upon, I would seek out those best teachers. And uh it's it it takes hard work, but that's that's the only way you're gonna get there.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Well, and you know, and that's how I got to know Coach Summit was Coach coming to spend a couple of days or a few hours with Coach Meyer to and and ask him a question or a wrinkle or whatever, you know, it doesn't stop. And I think that's something that obviously you've you've done a tremendous job of sharing what you have and and promoting the game and teaching the game, and and that's something I want to be a part of. And I think it's a Coach Meyer was the best, I think one of the best of sharing to a fault. Now he knew how to scale it as well, but also sharing it to a fault. Um let me ask you this. We we've both coached through a lot of different things, and and I've joked, and I don't know who told me this, that every day you should kind of expect there's gonna be two to three crises gonna pop up. I've also thought when I was coaching wherever, like, man, it though they have it so locked in they have no problems at whatever school, and it can be LSU or Yukon or Tennessee or wherever, but then when you get into it, you're like, we've all got problems. But I do think the great teams handle problems better. What's your thoughts on handling problems better that we're all gonna have?

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Well, the first thing going is to understand that, like you said, you're gonna have them, and you gotta have the right attitude. Uh, you know, one of the great coaches I worked for, Dale Brown, talked his big thing was problems aren't problems, they're opportunities. And uh when I speak in clinics, one of the things that people ask me is is a couple of characteristics uh for an assistant coach. And I the number one assistant coach trait for me is to be a problem solver. You know, my job is is to to look for problems or anticipate problems and solve them before they get to Coach Malkey's desk. And if I can't do that to work with Coach Malkey to solve them. And you're right. Uh I I could do a four-hour podcast with you on all the problems we had in 23 that ended up with the national championship. But on the outside looking in, people go, well, that that that must have been a breeze.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

Smooth smooth sailing.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Absolutely. And it's not. Uh but I think it was uh Ryan Holiday who who talked about the the three levels of of adversity for programs. You know, I you know, average programs get through it. And I think he I forget what the second one is, but great programs get better. And uh I think that's gotta be your goal. You have to understand that problems are opportunities to make your team c uh but become more more mentally tougher, physically tougher. Uh if you handle problems properly, uh they're an absolute advantage to the growth of your program.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Versus ignoring the problem or pretending it doesn't exist, which you see, and I mean we've all seen it and and heard about it. On that note, going back to running a program or coaching, we know how important hiring is and the balance on a staff. And I would think and and if you could just speak on this that you need somebody on your staff that is looking out for those potholes ahead of them. Either they have the experience and know that those these are coming up or they they are wired internally to look for those. What what's your thoughts on bound that staff of having those various elements?

SPEAKER_01 22:18

Well I think one of the one of the the worst things a a young coach does is they hire, you know, if they get an opportunity to become a head coach they go out and they hire friends or they hire people that they're very comfortable around. And and a really good coach is going to go out and hire staff the way they would recruit a team. We have spots to fill we have roles to fill and I need to find people to fill those roles. I know Sheshavski used to like to hire young former players because he understood who he was and uh and and and and what his program was about, what their culture needed to be I've always believed that that if I was a coach why I'd want some youthful energy on my staff. I'd want that one person who's been through the wars before I want one experienced person in there that I know if I'm on the road or if I'm here if I'm there can handle any situation that pops up in the office. So I I think there's got to be a blend of of some young energy but there's got to be some experience on there. Certainly you're looking for diversity in a whole lot of different areas I think the best head coaches do the great best job of hiring a staff. And you know if I if I was looking to be uh a head coach those were things that I would start working on now. Like you know Kim hired me at LSU and we had no relationship whatsoever. We had never worked before I think we'd had maybe two conversations on the sideline of summer AAU games. But she made me aware that I had been on her list because she had studied and uh done a deep dive into my background what my strengths, what my weaknesses are when the position came open I was the first person on her list that she wanted to to reach out to which she has for every single position on the staff. If anybody were to leave this staff she's already got names in a file folder that she would consider to fill that particular person's role. So it takes time it takes preparation and study but it is by far the most important thing you do. Your staff is more important than the players you recruit because the players you recruit are going to come about because the staff you have the better the staff the better you are.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

No doubt. Let me let's transition real quick you've done a ton of work with nonprofits obviously the KYA foundation is very close to you. I know you've served on various boards and that's a different type of leadership. What have you seen different or same working in like a mission driven foundation like that that translates from coaching and vice versa. What are some things that you've adapted leadership wise or you've brought over from one to the other?

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Well I think I've been blessed because I'm a a lifelong assistant coach. So when I uh have joined the the various boards that I've been on uh it's been as you know an assistant coach type person uh but I've been involved in I've sat on the board of uh of three foundations and uh all three of them had two things that were critically important. They had a very very powerful vision and mission that drove everybody and they had incredibly great leadership at the top you know the the the unique things about boards is uh for instance the KL board there's uh there's term limits for the majority of the people so people rotate uh in and off the board just like a team you know you come in you you you serve for four years and then you you you have a new group so but that staff that is stays there uh for the most part uh is the one that drives the culture and uh paints the picture and uh does a lot of the table setting for the board to be in but you have to have a great mission a great vision and you have to have great leadership and and then you you you you have to find time to do the work that you need because we're all serving on these boards um for lack of better word is a secondary job to your main job you know obviously my first job as a coach but I'm very passionate about the board uh it's funny I was watching uh a documentary on Lainey Wilson yesterday and she had a quote in there that I wrote down if you want to be a dreamer you have to be a doer and so we have some things that we want to do uh with each of these boards and it's just not enough for us to sit around in a boardroom and talk about them.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

We have to go out and execute well on that terms of execution you you're probably gonna execute with people who aren't being paid a lot of times how do you then and I'm gonna assume it comes down to communicating by multiple of 10 that vision how how do you go about motivating and getting that execution that you need when you know that it's not a financial or they're not going to win a championship type stake involved?

SPEAKER_01 27:19

Well I think a lot of a lot of us at the KL Cancer board if if you look at uh the large large majority of the board have a personal relationship with Coach Al. And uh that is a that's a pretty powerful thing to have when you know about how she put the the fun together and how she created the first board and uh you pass that vision along down to everybody else. And the other thing that's really important are the success stories uh you know we're we're we're saving lives we're extending lives. I mean that's that's that's so much more greater than winning a basketball game. And uh when when you you share that with the people on the board and then again you know we go back we talked a minute ago about picking a staff who we're incredibly particular about who we select to be on our board. And it's it's it's uh a lot of times it's people who have had uh cancer affect their lives in some way shape or form because that that's a really big driver when you have personal experience to what that's like. And uh I I just think that's a a big thing with with a board is is that vision uh and that connection that you have with that vision. And then again like I said leadership and then then the success stories are critically important to know what you're doing. You know uh Felicia Hall Allen uh I serve on her board of a Step Up uh which was a visionary board uh that started out uh reaching out to assistant coaches and helping them grow in in their jobs and as a lifelong assistant coach it it was just it was an amazing thing to watch the things that Felicia would would do uh with this foundation and and to watch young assistant coaches uh still today will come up to me say coach you don't remember me uh but I was at a step up back in 2009 and you spoke about blah blah blah and that just inspires you to continue to work at at the work that you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Let me follow up on one thing you said right there. You're talking about painting that vision and painting that vision with success stories. Take it back a couple of steps if you don't have your building to get those success stories. How do you paint that same vision?

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Well I I think it's a little bit more abstract. You know you you still have to have uh it it's it's it's like uh driving to the beach you know you've never been to the beach before uh but you've heard people talk about it you you you know what it's like you you you you you've looked into it uh you you have to paint some sort of mental imagery of where you're going if you want to go anywhere uh so if you're you're just now starting an organization uh you know Stephen Covey one of the seven habits begin with the end in mind you know one of his exercises was uh to envision your own funeral and you're hovering over the top and what are people saying about you and the life you've lived well if I was starting an organization I'd want to begin with the end of the mind and so when the the days of this organization are over you know what are people saying that we accomplished and what we did and and how did we do it?

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Shift gears real quick and you've talked about being a lifelong assistant we've both been assistants a long time. Can you give some couple practical things for leading from the middle? Because sometimes it's a tough spot to be in uh because you you have a responsibility but it's not your ultimate response you're not the ultimate one responsible we've also seen that go sideways because leading from the middle is not saying well this is what I would do if I was the head coach. That's not leading from the middle and I've heard you say before hey they're the boss my job to carry out that vision that might have been a lot of questions for you to hit right there.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Well I I'm gonna start with the best piece of advice I ever got that was from my junior high coach Alan Osborne I was packed up in a little Subaru in West Virginia to head to Baton Roosew for Dell Brown and I said give me something I can take with me and he said every morning get up and be the assistant coach you would want if you were the head coach and that was a pretty power powerful message for me. I actually have it taped up on my credentials at every office uh I've ever worked at so I I I think first of all that's important. Uh I I think it's very important if you want to be an assess successful coach that you have initiative. You're not going to be very good to your organization if you're sitting around waiting for your boss to tell you what to do. It does take time. You know I've I've I've been an assistant coach for a lot of different coaches. Every coach I've worked for has been completely different. So the first month or two of my job I'm I'm studying every single thing I can from them. Have they wrote a book have they done a video? I'm going in having conversations with them I'm talking to the other staff members. I want to know what makes this coach tick, what makes him or her happy what makes him or her upset because I want to be an extension of that coach. It's not about me being me. There's a phenomenal book written by John Maxwell called 360 degree leadership and what it says in there is you may not be the leader but you're a leader. And you know one of my absolute favorite mantras from from from Coach Meyer is, you know, your example's not the main thing it's the only thing so from the time I wake up to the time I go to bed I feel like I am an example of what Coach Malkey wants this program to be about. And I have to take that into consideration you know in in as the associate head coach I'm sent to meetings I'm I'm sent to to put out fires I'm sent to go handle battles and 100% my thought process has to be what would Coach Malkey want here? How would she want me to handle it? And and that means me letting go of my ego and uh sometimes that can be hard for young coaches but if you really want to be uh an outstanding assistant coach now that doesn't mean uh in a closed door meeting I can't I can't say I'm sorry coach I respectfully disagree or Coach Malkey would you at least look at this and and coach is great we've had great discussions and and and came to uh you know center ground on everything but once I walk out that office I'm I'm a soldier for Coach Malkey and what she wants.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Let me ask you this you talked about what head coaches can look for in assistance how have you evaluated when you've gone to a different job what have you looked for knowing that hey this for one for me to succeed and for two for me to help them succeed this is what has to be there.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

You know what that is that is probably the best thing you've brought up so far in this podcast in terms of assistant coaches because uh young assistant coaches they're gonna jump at the biggest paycheck or uh the biggest marquee job uh or you know maybe a program that that that's one at a high level when I first started I wanted a job where I was going to be given a lot of responsibility I wanted to work I wanted to learn everything that I could uh I started out at NAI school we talked about I had a lot of responsibilities there uh and I loved it I mean I just wanted to work and then uh I went from there to Marshall University where I was the only assistant coach on staff so again a lot of responsibility a lot of work I wanted uh to build my knowledge of the game I wanted to work for smart coaches uh and every coach I've worked for has been incredibly intelligent but in different ways and in different areas and uh I've worked for defensive coaches and offensive coaches I've worked for coaches with great organizational structure I've worked for coaches that were uh incredible motivators uh so uh I've been able to work for uh a lot of varieties have made me very important the one thing that was really important to me is I was not going to work for somebody that I didn't respect. I cannot work for somebody uh whose morals or values are different than mine. I'm not saying I'm better than them or that but uh there there's certain levels uh behavior and understanding that that I want to work with and it it's so much easier uh when you have that that same compass of uh uh that that your boss has it's just a much easier way to to get through the the problems and adversity of building a program.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Well that alignment I mean from the top down and bottom up right there. Just a couple more coach we um in order to be a successful head coach or even assistant coach the administration is key some advice or some things you've seen like what what do you do you think you should expect from the administration and and on the other side of it what should the administration accept from or expect from their coaching staffs?

SPEAKER_01 36:21

Well I I think that's a a really uh broad based question because of all the parameters that are involved I think the first thing any coach should understand is they have no understanding of what an administrator has to do especially in this day and age especially on my level uh we have problems in our program uh multiply that times ten with an administration they are they are having to put together an organization that that runs twenty-three twenty-four sports uh they're in charge of academics are in charge of compliance are in charge of budgets for all of these and so they do have uh a unique set of problems and you need to be understanding to that another thing is you're you're not gonna get everything you want you know the best programs get what they get and and and whatever the resources they have they find a way to make that work uh we're not football here you know somebody will say hey did you see all the NIL football listen this is my football they need anything for me I write them a check I need football to win here I'm a team player I'm all for football winning here we need men's basketball to win here you know you you've got to see the big pitcher uh never lie to an administrator uh to me the biggest thing with with getting along with an administration is is having mutual respect for each other uh it's no different than what we talked about with coach and players there's gonna be hard confront uh confrontative uh discussions and and you've got to walk away knowing each party is doing the best that they can uh I've been blessed to work from some great administrations I've said all along when my first tour duty at LSU uh we went to five straight final fours and I would tell you that a big big reason for that started when we hired a president named Mark Emmert and he hired an athletic director named Skip Bertman the support for our program changed instantly we would not have done what we had done without the administration. Now I think it's important that coaches cultivate relationships with their administrators. We had a senior women's administrator uh we have an AD we have great relationships with the people we work with they and and and that's reciprocal I mean we have administrators that travel the games with us come to practice uh to me if you can find an uh an institution with administrators that uh genuinely care and roll up their sleeves and get in I'll never forget when Skip Bertman was hired as athlete director he had a huge staff meeting with all the coaches and he told us if you come to me and ask me for something I will never tell you no. He goes I might not be able to tell you yes yet but if you're telling me it's important we'll find a way to do it. And he ran his administration like that. I remember we needed to raise money and Skip called two different events together of people he knew to help us do it. So if you can find that type of administration it's great. If you can't it's still incumbent upon you to find a way to work with them the best you can.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

Well and you said it it's cultivating a relationship no different than with a player or another staff member. It's not a relationship and too often I think coaches I'm speaking broadly too often I hear of coaches well I just don't really talk to them. Well that's not a very effective relationship period there's no relationship that goes on with that honest communication.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

One of the things I remember is Coach Meyer telling me he used to take his AD to lunch once a month just to have a conversation. I said what do you talk about? He said Bob every month was different. He said sometimes we may not have talked about Lipscomb. We may have talked about things going on in the world or Nashville or the community it was just important that we had that conversation once a month I I thought that was a great idea so from time to time I'm gonna take my my SWA out for lunch.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Last question here well I got two more but they'll they're not as hard hitting as this one if you could if you could give one lesson from the sideline for somebody listening for a young coach or a coach that's out there what would that be?

SPEAKER_01 40:19

Failure is your best friend if you handle it right you know to to be the best you can be you have to grow and failure teaches you more than success. I'm not saying when failure comes about you you don't have momentary moments of disappointment but it's a great opportunity for you to to to take a look into what happened my my my dear friend Billy Moore who you know used to always tell me after a a a season you had to do an autopsy and I really love that word. I think anytime you have a failure could be you lost a game you lost a player you lost a job there there's so many different things are going to happen in your life that that that you're going to look at as failure but you have a great opportunity to learn from it. And if you do that you're going to grow and get better.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

Last two things what pen you got in your hand right now because I know you got something right there. I went old school with the uh the multicolor and then this little sharpie's not bad for a lefty right here.

SPEAKER_01 41:19

I've been on this this this little uniball uh signal for uh uh uh uh brandon chambers when I was at Texas AM got me I I get pens all the time you know our our our um our reputation for pens people send this this has been gone for about four years now I haven't found one that that that I feel better with uh that no smear for the lefty is key monster very underrated unl unless you're a lefty the right handed people don't don't understand the the problems that we have right there.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

Well we could talk Seinfeld and uh hey you know Pop Tarts has protein Pop Tarts now so they might be able to get on that keto diet there and everything. But I just wanted to thank you and uh enjoyed this the whole reason for doing this is that it's an opportunity for me to learn and it's a selfish way to do it and share as much as we can out there. But I appreciate your time. I know you got a visit and I'm sure some workout somewhere going on today.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

Well it's it's the best part of the job now. You know uh there's always something to do keep you busy keep you out of trouble keep your mind sharp and uh I enjoy this as well. I I mean if if we had a dollar every time you and I'd sit down and and and discuss basketball and life and leadership and team building we'd be rich people.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Last thing and this is the last one book you're reading right now.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

Book I'm reading I'm actually rereading resilience. Resilience third time I've read it uh Dean Lockwood turned me on to this book and uh I will honestly say it's one of the top five books I've ever read and uh kind of at a point in my life some things I've gone through I think it's really important and and I've really gotten into Ryan Holiday is is somebody I really respect and look up to when I was at Texan M he came and spoke to the men's basketball team and and Buzz Williams allowed me to sit into it and I've really got into stoism. Matter of fact uh uh a another thing uh that I read I read this every day Daily Stoics yep Daily Stoics uh so I've really been uh Mark Aurelius the all that kind of stuff but Ryan got me uh he had a thing on his uh social media talking about the importance of rereading books and I got a library at home uh that of books I've maybe read red once for the most of them so I've been spending a lot more time uh the last six months rereading books than buying new ones.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

They speak to you a little different sometimes on that second time through.

SPEAKER_01 43:47

It is absolutely amazing how something hits different or you know I like to highlight things. And I'll read a book this time why didn't I highlight that I'm just you know what does it say you a man never stands in the river at the same place because the man changes and the river changes. So rereading's been phenomenal.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

Coach, that was the last question and I do appreciate it. I'll let you get to your workout and please tell Sherry we said hey.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

You got it. Thanks, Greg.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

Thank you.