IOP LENS
The IOP Lens is a SIOPSA podcast that brings together practitioners, leaders, and scholars in Industrial and Organisational Psychology to explore the issues shaping the future of work. Our aim is to make IOP thinking accessible, relevant, and impactful for both practitioners and decision-makers. Each episode contributes to SIOPSA’s broader professional dialogue.
IOP LENS
S1E5: Reimagining Transformation Ft. Dr Refiloe Ramodibe
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Reimagining Transformation: Leadership, AI, and Inclusion in a Multi-Generational World | The IOP Lens
In this episode of The IOP Lens, Dr Sane Ngidi is joined by Dr Refiloe Ramodibe for a rich and future-focused conversation on transformation, leadership, and inclusion in an evolving world of work.
Framed as Reimagining Transformation, the discussion explores how organisations can navigate the intersection of AI, leadership, and generational diversity while creating workplaces that are inclusive, adaptive, and human-centred. Dr Ramodibe reflects on the shifting expectations of talent, the importance of inclusive leadership, and the opportunities for organisations to embrace innovation without losing sight of people and culture.
This episode challenges leaders and practitioners to rethink transformation beyond compliance, toward meaningful impact across generations and systems of work.
🔔 Like, subscribe, and share with someone on their IOP journey.
🎓 Join the conversation at the SIOPSA Conference.
#IOPLens #IOP #CareerGrowth #FutureOfWork #SIOPSA
Welcome to the IOP lens, where we share the real stories and real journeys behind IOP psychology. This is about real people and the moments that have shaped us as a profession. I'm excited today as we delve into the topic around technological innovation and what that means for transformation, the world of work, inclusive cultures, and so much more. Who better to traverse this topic with than Dr. Rifilue Ramudibbe, who's joining me today? But before I get to Rifilue, let me tell you a little bit about her. She, first of all, is a key leader within our Psyopsa team and leads our transformation function. And so just a real lens, both from a societal perspective as well as then bringing her experience to this topic today. So Rufilo is an IO psychologist. She's a strategic HR leader, so bringing that technical capability, but that business leadership as well, with over 15 years experience leading institutions in leading institutions, including RB, where she is today, Nedbank, where I worked with her for a little bit, the DBSA, and so many other organizations. She has a speciality which is around talent management, organizational development, and leadership transformation, and has a real strong focus on building inclusive, high-performing cultures. Very relevant for our topic today. Her ethos and her grounding in how she approaches work is focused in transformational, people-centric principles, practices, and she's deeply passionate about mentorship, succession, building the future talent of both our profession and broadly for society. As I've mentioned, a key role in Psypso will delve a little bit more into that in our conversation today. And the other lens that she brings is having completed her PhD within the transformation space. Her PhD research explored the lived career experiences of Black senior managers, a really pertinent topic, reflecting in her belief that the power of personal narratives, personal stories, sharing those personal journeys drives meaningful, impactful organizational change. That's a summary of Dr. Rafilwe Ramutive. So, Rafilwe, welcome and thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you, Seneca. I could read that title again and again. I was like, are you talking about me? Girl, that was a summary of you. Imagine if I had the long version. Thank you so much for joining us today. I start every conversation the same because how we end up in these seats is very different for every person. So, what's your journey to becoming um an IO psychologist in terms of how did you end up here?
SPEAKER_00Who? Um, how much time do you have?
SPEAKER_02All the time in the world for you. Yeah, so I think for me, um, you know, I I've always had a passion um for working with people. Um I initially started with a Bachelor of Science degree and I I I almost ended up actually working in a lab. And as I was completing my undergrad, I realized that this is actually not me, right? And I've got a passion for people development. So that's that's what brought me here. Um and as I was actually journeying through my career in in IOP, um, it has it has literally transformed over the years. Um, I started out in with psychometric assessments, so that's what I I initially started in, and I eventually landed up in talent management, which is uh a passion of mine. Like I'm I um I feel like I'm I'm working in my dream job at this point in time. So for me, it's about how do we shift people from where they are to where they can actually be the best versions of themselves. And I think for me, that's why I do what I do, and that's why I'm in in in IHOP. So it's about that, you know, transforming people to becoming better versions of themselves.
SPEAKER_01I absolutely love that. And that that for me totally resonates. Yeah, like it it resonates so much. Um I often being in corporate, um, I often it may feel like I lose touch with the IOPness, and then I I and then I I come into the space of the the Psyopsa community, or I come into space where I'm engaging on thought leadership, or I'm engaging on like real people's journeys and how that transforms them. And then I feel like so blessed. Like I'm like, this is more than a career. Like the work we do is incredible. It's inspiring, it's exciting, and it doesn't feel like work.
SPEAKER_02I I totally agree. I think we can, um, you know, especially when you work in corporate, you get sucked into the day-to-day. And you, it's very important for you to actually sit back and reflect on the purpose-driven type of work that we actually do. Um, I mean, a simple thing, if you look at it from an HR lens, it's like, oh no, I'm just doing transaction, you know, I'm I'm just doing succession planning or I'm just recruiting for a particular role. But when you look at the impact that you have on those people that you put on those in those seats, it is quite um, it's it's very like it's very humbling, you know. And when you see people, and especially in the area that I work in, I also work with Young Thailand. So when I see the the young people that I recruited when they started their careers back in the day, and to see where where they've actually landed up at, for me, it's just it it reminds me that I'm not actually just doing pro process, it's not process-driven work, right? It's actually purpose-driven work and the impact that we actually make in people's lives. Um, we should never ever take that for granted. Um, and I think for me, that's the the transformative piece of of the work that we do as IOPS. And it's um, you know, it's it's it's for us to actually just remind ourselves on a day-to-day basis.
SPEAKER_01I think um it goes back to your research also around around narratives and people's stories, like often meeting people later on in their journey, and I've forgotten, I've completely forgotten where their story started. And they will say, We were at multi-choice, and you interviewed me for this job, and it gave me my first step, or I was in a predicament and we had a mentorship conversation and it unlocked this for me. So, very much around the you're not just doing a process, you are imprinting, you are having an impact on somebody's life. 100%.
SPEAKER_02I agree with that, and I think because we deal with so many people, we forget, but they don't forget, right? So, um, I mean, I was actually looking the other day on my LinkedIn and I I realized how many grads I've actually placed over the years. One of them was actually um just recently promoted at NetBank, and you know, to my shock, and I just recalled how I found this individual at the University of Stalin Bosch years ago, right? And tiny. She was very tiny at that particular time. And I just had a conversation with her. I liked her from the onset. You know, she got into the recruitment, um, into the graduate program at that particular time, but she's grown so much, um, up to a level where now she's a principal in a CIB environment. So can you just imagine having to actually witness that person's growth from where they started to where they're at? It's it's just it gives me goosebumps, actually.
SPEAKER_01Also, also, Sikulila, my friend. We have we have grown, we have matured, we are older because isn't that incredible?
SPEAKER_02It is so incredible, it's so incredible. And I think for me, you know, when even when we when I have hard days, right, I always remind myself of my why. I think for me, that is one thing that grounds me on a day-to-day basis, whether if I have a challenging day or something happens in my day, and I'm just like, Rafula, just be reminded of why you're doing what you're doing. And it's very um, it's it's it's quite humbling for me. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I I I I I hold on to that. Um, I like what you said. You said even on the hard days, even on the hard days, just remembering that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so you've gone onto this route. Um, I think you're not the first one to speak about the BSC story. So there's something about studying BSC and ending up somewhere else. It needs to be unpacked. We're not gonna unpack it today. Um, go into the space. Um, at what point in your journey do you become a Psyopsa member? How do you find out about Psyopsa? How does that part of your joy journey happen?
SPEAKER_02You, when did I start? Actually, you're taking me back to the point you were making earlier that we all spatal. When did I start? I actually don't even remember the year. Hey, but I I remember registering as a um a student psychologist with the Health Professions Council. I think that's where the connection started for me. I can't remember who introduced me to Psyopsa. It could have been at Multi-Choice, if I'm not mistaken, or it could have been um Prof. Andrew Johnson, because he was my supervisor. So I I I can't actually remember exactly, but I remember it was very early on in my career. But the initial intention was for me just to keep up with my CPD points, because we all knew if you attend a Psyopsa conference, then you are sorted for the year. And that was the initial intent. Up until I started actually attending, um, because I remember back in the day, we used to have these powerful job exertions, sessions um that were held in different corporates. And when I was working at NetBank, NetBank used to be um used as a venue for for those sessions. And I started building relationships with some of the Psyopsa members, and I got introduced to other people that were outside of my circle from a workplace perspective, right? And I think that's when I I actually there was one session in particular, my memory is very good. So there was one session in particular where I can't remember who the presenter was, but I remember the presentation and it was a Psyopsa um session, and it was on leadership. And the the presenter was presenting on leadership um and using the the New Zealand rugby team as an as an example of what good leadership um looked like. And I was just fascinated because I mean, on a day-to-day basis, I wouldn't relate spots, you know, like what does that have to do with corporate? Because I work in corporate, right? But the principles that this person was sharing. And I thought, actually, there are learnings, you know, like you could learn from other people in this space that look at the same things but very differently, because maybe I'm, you know, I'm I'm exposed to a certain way of looking at leadership development as an example. But when I got there, a colleague who was in IOP working in a different um environment showed us how we can use sport as, you know, um leadership, you know, to learn from leadership um, you know, principles and things like that. So I was fascinated and I started actually attending these sessions, and I started learning quite a lot and challenging my thought processes in terms of how I looked at things. And I have actually used some of these things that I learned from the Psyopsa sessions, um, you know, in my current work and in my past um work as well. So, so I think for me, you know, that's where I then realized the real value of being a Psyop, um, a Psyopsa member. Um, and I I've never stopped. I've actually never taken a break from Psyopsa. I've always been like on the other side and just being observing and you know, looking at what how things are uh are taking place from the, you know, but as a member. So but now it's different. I think because I'm on the other side, it's it's quite it's a different experience. But yeah.
SPEAKER_01What's it like on the other side? It's fun.
SPEAKER_02I won't lie. I really I I enjoy the space, I enjoy the type of work that we do. I enjoy um having to to influence the members on the other side, having to add value, having to improve on on what our predecessors have had started, the great work that they had started. So it's about how do we then elevate it to um to higher levels, right? And it's a lot of work, but I think for me it energizes me. Um and I really do like um, I think I find myself being everywhere. I I'm just I'm nosy. So you'll see I'll be in um regional chair persons groups. And the other day they were actually asking, like, uh, are you joining us in the meeting? And I was like, no, no, I'm I'm actually just here to support. So don't let me be a derailer. If you guys need to meet, just meet. But it's the that's the kind of work, and I love being in the space, honestly. Like it's uh it's been a great experience for me. And I'm still gonna continue being serving in Psyopsa because I feel like there's more work that we need to do. I love the space. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, Nicola and I had a catch-up. We were strategizing about where we are now and where we want to go into the future, and as we were talking, I I said to her, I don't know how I ended up here caring so much about our profession and really relishing and enjoying the opportunity to be in a space to have impact. So yeah, it's it's a really great place to be.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Transformation. Um, how did transformation and change become such a big piece for you in your career?
SPEAKER_02Sure. Um, I think for me, it's the I started having this passion on transformation when I was doing my honors. Um, I remember my it's not a dissertation, right? It was a what did we call it at honors level? It's not a dissertation. It's your thesis. No thesis, I think. It's the same. It's like a write-up that that mini mini research we did. So um I was just fascinated with this concept of transforming um organizations, right? And I think for me it was more around the employment equity. I, you know, it was just um I one of the values, let me let me uh take a step back. One of the values that drive me as a as a person is is justice, right? And equity. And for me, that's personal. It doesn't matter. I think even when I was um growing up and in high school, I I really I was an advocate for that. You know, I wanted people to be treated equally. And it just pained me when I was um in my honors class, and there were literally just two black um students in honors out of I think we were 16. And I remembered the friends that I had in third year that never made it to honors. And instead of thinking of myself as I was a special breed, and maybe that's how I made it, and I was, you know, um one of the two. For me, I qu I had questions around why why do we not have half half, right? Why do we not have a balanced number of students? And I think that question, that's when things started for me. I started actually wanting to understand why, why is there inequity, right? And my my my um mini dissertation was was on affirmative action. And then I started doing that, and then I was like, okay, I'm actually enjoying this. It's not it didn't seem like it was just research. And then when I got to my master's, I then deliberately wanted to step into the understanding the cultures in organization. And what is it about that those cultures that made it so difficult for someone that looked like me not to actually get to certain levels at that time, right? And that's the passion, then it never stopped. It never stopped. Then it's a like I just I took it and it obviously I took a while before I got into my my my PhD, but I it was actually an extension. I then wanted to know, okay. On the other side, because when I was in masters, it was about the what's up, what what is it with these cultures that I'm making that is making it difficult for people like me to succeed. Then when I got to my PhD, I was like, oh, okay. Now it's been years, there's been progress that has been made in terms of getting people of colour uh into those space into this those spaces and those those those levels. And then I thought to myself, okay, fine, now that we've got enough um of these people, let me just find out what makes them special. Right. And then that that that's how I got to actually do my research. It was very interesting. I I could do it again, except for the admin part of the PhD, but I think the the storytelling for me was just amazing. Like I really um I I got a lot out of the the research um in terms of the stories that they told. And I'm I am using that data somehow in my day-to-day job as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I think there's something there that you said which speaks about you yourself and your journey now, which is the ability to look up and see somebody who looks like you in a seat and know that that because that person is there, it means I stand a chance. It's not guaranteed, but it means that if I can look up and see somebody who looks like me, I stand a chance. And for me, had you told me when I was an IOP just a few years ago that I could be Psyopsa president, I would not have believed you because I had not seen people who look like me as Psypsa president. And so I as I'm an HR generalist in corporate. Yes, I'm an IOP, I'm black, I'm female. I'm like, these are not the things that make a Psyopsa president, but now we're shifting that, right? We're transforming our society, we're we're transforming our fraternity, and it means that other people stand a chance.
SPEAKER_02100%. I totally agree with you. And I think even, you know, not just from um, I think even the intersectionality around being a black female as well, right? Which is it was one of the most fascinating um um, you know, results that I got from my research. Like it was very, it was different because you know, we we've always thought of um black people as homogeneous. Like are we all black, we all have the same experiences. But it was fascinating to actually find out that the black male and the black female are not having the same experience, right? Because there is that level of intersectionality that actually differentiates our experiences in the workplace. And um, to your point, I think the more that I see all these black females that are I really are, you know, making an impact and succeeding in the seats that I wish I could get into one day, it's it's it's actually it brings hope to us, right? And then also, then it means that when I go to the young talent and I I encourage them and I recruit them, I'm not recruiting based on aspirations, but it's based on reality and seeing where we are headed from a transformation perspective. So I do agree. I agree with you totally. I think with me as well, I never thought of myself as being worthy of being part of the Psyopsa executive committee because I never used to see people that look like you and I in the committee. But I think over the years we we have seen um you know progress in in that regard.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Transformation, I feel people kind of view it from two different lenses. The one is I think of um people within project management or change and they or yeah, in the project management space, thinking of like business transformation a change, right? So there's one lens that's very process strategy, evolution. Then I see transformation on the other lens, and it's often got a very racial lens to it, like, right? Um both very polar opposites, they they often don't feel like they touch sides. Um and I guess there's such a deeply human, impactful piece to transformation. And so these two different pieces, how do they come together into the world of work or how do we view transformation?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So that's a very good question. Um, because I think there's always confusion around when you talk transformation. And um, I don't know if you've noticed, but of late we no longer talk a lot about transformation, but we talk DEI, right? Yes. So we have kind of like shifted that language and we like. Like, oh no, we transformation is being converted into diversity, equity, and inclusion.
SPEAKER_01I'm not gonna lie, it feels like transformation's got a bad rip. It feels like transformation's got negative terms.
SPEAKER_02100%. And I and I and I I'm I'm in agreement with that. And I think it's because of the polarity in what we were trying to achieve when we wanted equity, right? And equality. Because now obviously, when you try to push for certain groups to be to get access to certain things, then it means there's another lens that says that you have to exclude other people in order to include. Whereas it's actually not, we it was not meant to be to actually be seen that way, right? It was meant to actually take that group and that group and bring them together so that we can actually have equitable experiences and exposure. So I think that's what brought the bad rap on transformation. And I'll get to the to that question, but I think it's important for us to actually address this one because I think even from a Psyopsa perspective, having been in this um portfolio for it's almost a year now, there's the there's an element that I I just started identifying some work that we actually need to do as Psyopsa to bring the two groups together. Because I think over the years, as we were trying to to get um, you know, uh black people um into the space, into the space, then there has been a shift where perhaps maybe, and I it's it's I I don't have the data. I mean, we scientists, so we I don't have the data yet, but it's just been based on observation. But there is a sense that the the other group is is is being excluded from that. And I think for me, you know, in the next term as transformation chair, I think that that is one of the it's something that I I think it's very pattern for us to put as our strategy, to say how do we bring two groups together so that we become the the Psyopsa house looks very diversified, right? And uh, and and and so that we can also dispel that whole notion that transformation is just meant to exclude others at the expense of just having these uh this other group. So I think we need to work on that. On the question that you're asking around the two types of transformation, the other one is very process driven, right? But I think the a lot of the the time we make mistakes and in in the mistake in corporate to assume that it's just process driven. But how who who does the process actually impact? It's people. You cannot remove people from transformation work, whether you're transforming um a system or whatever, and that's where change management comes in because a lot of the time we're just process driven, it's about us converting and changing from this system to the next system, but we're forgetting that we impact people. We're impacting the emotional, you know, the emotional aspect of a person. Imagine having now I'm being expected to work on a different system, and I was used to working on a particular system for 20 years. Now you're expecting me to use, like even now with AI, you're expecting me to use AI, you're expecting me to use co-pilot or whatever. Um, but I'm so stuck to using that old way of doing things. And when you change your systems, you didn't consider me. You didn't consider the impact that it has on me. And if you take that and you combine the two, you didn't even consider the impact that it has on different types of groups, right? Generational groups as well. There's older generation, how are they taking up on these different changes that we have? Not just in AI, but a whole lot of things, particularly, right? If you look at it, there's um the the Gen Zs, the Gen, you know, the Gen X's, the Gen Y's. How are how are they all actually consuming the change and how are they reacting towards the change? It's people, right? So you cannot divorce the two. And I think that's where we get it wrong, because we just go, we design um change processes, and then we impose it on people. And and when we impose it, we assume that people are homogeneous as well. It's the same. The way that Sane will take it is the same way that a grad, who's like 23, will take the change, and it's not the same. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think so many thoughts. But I think what comes to mind for me is that that what you just said around the fact that these two these things are not separate, right? One is process, but people are at the center of this. And it this shows up in two different spaces. The one is what you just described around Psyopsa itself. Yeah. We as an organization are a growing space, an organism, etc. And so transformation is about the change and growth of society. That looks like it impacts diverse people within that context. It also influences the process and strategy piece about who we are and who we want to be as a society and how we evolve. And so you can't separate those pieces. And then the second piece, which you just described, is within the world of work, right? And so we speak about AI and technology and all of this great stuff. But when we think about the benefits that it brings, you can't do that without thinking about the people. You can't do the benefits of implementing the systems and the processes without thinking about the consequences on people and how you manage that well.
SPEAKER_02And the question is the benefits for who? Right? Who went and designed something and said it will benefit me? Right?
SPEAKER_01And and the project team, you were you not in the room when the project team did the white wall and put the things together?
SPEAKER_02You see, that's the thing. Because it's good and well that we're moving towards um different or you know, like progressive technological and we're advancing there. It's good and well. But are we considering who we're making these changes for?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And also, is it really a one-size-fits-all? Do we have to AI everything, guys? You know, like let's be honest, right? We're moving towards that, but do we have to AI everything? And in the South African context as well. So if we bring in transformation, the designs of this AI and all this technological uh great stuff, it's done outside of the, sometimes it's done out of uh outside of this the African context, and particularly South African context. We have our own different issues that that we're dealing with in this space, right? And have we ever thought of how this actually impacts on the South African context? Or are we just taking a design that comes from the Western world and we are just putting it here, copying and pasting as is? And there's nothing wrong with taking good things and bringing them here, right? But are we then um trying to adjust and adapt them to our context and our environment? And I think that's the those are the questions that we need to start asking ourselves, um, even in the organization, you know, the organizations that we work in.
SPEAKER_01I I think, I mean, one of the um planned uh panels that we have for conference coming up in July is around AI and the promises AI brings and whether or not they've all been fulfilled, right? So we've got all of this hype, but does it live up to all of the expectations? And in some aspects it may, but maybe we also have to be realistic about where it doesn't live up to expectations. So, how do we hold this balanced view as opposed to just this um consistently positive view? And then I think when you speak again about South African context, um I was on uh Prof. Sharing about um AI and the world of work, and at the end of the podcast, um, someone put up their hand and they asked a question and they were like, this is fantastic. Where are the IOPs in terms of engaging with unions and how do we work together on this? And I was like, great question. I was like, great question, but like taking that lens of partnership and saying, this is great, it can help us as well, but how are we co-designing and how are you thinking about unions and the representation of employees?
SPEAKER_02Exactly. And I mean, if you look at the job market in South Africa as well and the fear of AI, and I mean, it's not unfounded, right? We have high unemployment rates here. Um people are being retrenched on a on a daily. So it's about how do we then also change the narrative, or not necessarily just the narrative, but how do we also then redesign the workspaces that we we are in to accommodate and upskill the individual so that they can actually um move from the jobs that are becoming redundant into be in into the jobs that are AI driven? Because you will still need the human, right? But at the moment, there's this whole excitement about the technology and AI that I think we also forget that we're dealing with this big problem in our country of unemployment and how do we then upskill people? And have we given ourselves enough time to do that, or are we just adopting all these AIs and then you know, getting rid of people or uh retrenching people? You know, have we given ourselves that time to say how do we then shift and how do we move towards that equitable, you know, equ equilibrium that I was talking about? How do we get the humans and that to meet somewhere, you know, halfway?
SPEAKER_01I think another thing for me is way back in the day when we were at school, uh, way back then, it's like you followed the rules and you almost ended up in the right place. Like you went to school, you worked really hard, you studied, you got your degree, you got your job.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Now in this market, people are following the rules and they get their degree, but you don't get the job. Exactly. You you don't get the job. The market is saturated with people sitting with degrees who don't necessarily get the job, and of course, people of color. And so I guess the question again is around how do we transform how we think about work post the university? And how do we give people the skills for them to be productive, for them to be self-sufficient, for them to be able to be successful when they enter the world of work, knowing that the world of work is no longer just a linear from the stage to a job.
SPEAKER_02I think there needs to be more collaboration between the universities and the young talent specialists in organizations. There is a bit of um a gap there, right? Because I don't think that we're having the right conversations that we should be having. One part, I mean, the universities, they've got their degrees and all of that, and they're preparing you, but are we also in corporate telling them this is what I'm expecting, right? In terms of um a student that is ready or a grad that is going to be ready and be um, you know, responding to the needs that I have from a skills perspective here. And I think that gap, and we as IOP, we've got an opportunity to actually then um, you know, have an impact in that because we've got IOPS in in universities and we've got IOPS in in corporate. But are we then bridging, you know, making sure that we bridge the gap between the two? Because that's where we have it wrong. We get it wrong. Secondly, the young Thailand professionals as well. How are we also ensuring that we design programs that will help and um equip the the graduates with the skills that are required to be able to cope with all this ever-changing world uh of work that we are in? Because, I mean, for example, I mean, in my space, yesterday we I I hosted a young talent expo. And one of the things that or the messages that I was giving to the grads is that careers are not linear. And I think we need to actually teach or communicate that to our grads because they mustn't think that just because I studied engineering, I can't work in a bank. We've got lots of um engineers that work in the bank. Careers are not linear, and even within the space, once you you you are already in in corporate, it doesn't necessarily mean that you can't actually then pivot.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right? So there will be moments where you have to, like you'll think, okay, I'm I was the I was doing this, and then I um and then you you end up in something different. I mean, I'm a perfect example of that. I pivoted from a science degree into humanities. Um, so it's it's a clear, you know, indication that careers have changed. But it's about what are we communicating and are we also equipping these grads with the right knowledge? And I think that's where the gap is. And then also that bridging the gap between um young talent professionals and the universities.
SPEAKER_01I think another piece is around talent strategy. I think organizations want ready now talent, and they don't focus or don't put as much effort into for you to get ready now talent, you have to invest 10, 15 years down the line because you're not just gonna wake up and find a talent pool. And so, I mean, RB does great work in the in the young talent space, but very much around organizations having real a real internal look and say, how are we building pipeline? Because talent is a long-term game, it's not an overnight game.
SPEAKER_02And also continuous development for for the internal people, right? Because I think we we also focus so much on the grads. Yes, we equip you, we put a lot of attention on you when you start out, when you're starting out, and then three years in, you get stuck, like okay, you don't know what to do. Um, are you actually getting the right development that you require to grow your talent, to grow your career as an example? And also with careers changing, I mean, we no longer we don't have hierarchical careers anymore, but are we also equipping our people to understand that even that is changing? And the way that you develop your skills, it's also changing. So, so I think there's you know, there's there's quite a lot of work that we need to do. I'm just like creating a long list for my things to do, so yeah, I know, but but yeah, but there's a lot of work we need to do. I think development, developing our people is a big thing, and it goes to what our I said earlier around having you know an impact and moving a person from point A to the best version of themselves. And I think we need to always have that in mind, you know, it's not just about being profit-driven and whatnot, but we need to also focus on people development.
SPEAKER_01I think that's part of like the talent debacle or the talent frustration that people often find in organizations. I like you hire me as somebody who's talent, then once I'm in the organization, I might not necessarily feel as if I'm getting watered or getting the opportunities to develop. And then you see somebody outside as talent, but you don't see that I'm talent. You just have to invest in me and I can build those capabilities, et cetera. Because I think often internal stuff feel they may be overlooked or they may not be getting developed, and that's a missed opportunity.
SPEAKER_02And I think that's where transformation also comes in, right? Because it's about are we providing um equitable, you know, opportunities to people internally as we are with people externally? So it's not so transformation is not just about bringing people, it's also those kind of things. So it might be the same demographic, but what are you saying about a person who has been in this space for so long? Yes. What have you done to intentionally actually grow them into the career that they actually aspire for? So it's also transformation. So now it means that you there's a form of uh discrimination. It is a form of discrimination. So you're discriminating against your internal uh candidates, and you have a preference for external. So that's also discrimination.
SPEAKER_01I also feel sometimes in the in the transformation space there's a question around genuine intent of transformation and creating abundance of talent and really wanting to transform versus quota. Because then what may happen in organizations is we need five African females at senior management, will invest everything in those five and overlook other people, and that becomes a problem in itself, right? Because it's not about just focusing on those five people, but how are we creating more talent pipelines, more diversity, more opportunities as opposed to the requisite number for the quota? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02She the quota, quota argument. Um I think even with the research I did uh for my PhD and my master's, right? The that debate around quota versus you know people that have a genuine contribution, it's been there. But I I can say in the most recent research that I did, my PhD, that that's not, you know, uh that's not what I found. I mean, um, you know, I I don't know if I can mention the bank, but one of the banks, like the big bank, which when I was doing my research across the different financial institutions, they've got they've had they've got such a strong pipeline of um of diversified candidates in very high positions. And they are the bank that is actually uh doing the best, not just in South Africa, but across the the African continent. So so that it, you know, that dispels the the whole quarter um you know uh argument. And then on the the missing, it's we call it the missing middle everywhere. Yes, there's a missing middle at school. There's a this is the missing middle, which is the middle management cohort, right? That's where I think in almost all the organizations that I've worked in, that has been a problematic area in terms of how do we ensure that we also provide opportunities for those individuals. And I think that's where the challenge is because succession, we do it well when it comes to senior management, but but we also it's it's kind of like um an egg and a um chicken situation, right? Because for you to actually get the the people ready for senior positions, you have to work with this middle management. And I think that's where the issue around getting people from outside comes in. Because now you're forgetting these people, right? And you're focusing on the top, and then the top retire, and then you you try and fight and try and extend retirement age, and then the retirement age also um comes and goes, and then you are stuck with the middle management that you forgot about. And then other organizations have organizations that have actually been focusing on that middle management. Now you want to go and poach from that, and you want to build your pipeline. So it's about having intentionality across the board, right? From young talent into early careers to middle management, up until senior management. It's it's actually a cycle. So you can't you need to make sure that you focus on all of it. You can't just focus on just one um, you know, one group and you forget about because it's actually they're connected. So if you miss one, one step, then it means that you're gonna miss the rest, yeah, from a pipelining perspective.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. And I think for me, like it's business sense, right? Like what gets measured gets results. Like investors want to know what measurements are. The CEO, all of us, you've got performance metrics, and that's that's how we hold you accountable. And so I think quotas, metrics, whatever those things are, are important, right? We've got to have a strategy towards how we'll intentionally transform. But I think organizations have got to push themselves beyond just what the minimum requirement is to really having influence and impact. And then just on what you're saying, I'm sure you know this. It's like one of those like age-old quotes, which is like, what if we develop mental what if we develop them and they leave? But what if you don't develop them and they stay?
SPEAKER_02So you have to develop mentor you have to actually develop them to leave 100%. Because I think the problem that we have as South African organizations, we are solving for the organization and not the country. And I think if we change our mindsets, and that's where the transformation comes in. And for me, it's like, what are we transforming? I'm not transforming the organization that I'm in, I'm transforming the country, right? I'm making sure that I build a talent because transformation is beyond just the the you know DI aspect, but it's about transforming even from a skill perspective. So if I'm transforming and if I build a talent pipeline within the space that I'm in now, I'm building the talent pipeline for South Africa. 100%. And I think the day we all actually have the same vision, then all these talent wars also like it's are we really in a talent war? Or are we really in a in a space where we are starting to actually then build the talent for the country instead of just for one organization?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And for me, that goes back. I mean, whether it's the developing the talent talent at middle management or whether it's early careers, when I look at people who are sitting in senior leadership roles. Who are very successful today in a diversity of organizations. Many of them have started at the same internship program somewhere down the line because somebody decided they had a talent strategy to build talent. And today, that talent isn't within that organization. It is leading organizations across South Africa. So very much that in talent strategy isn't just an internal view. It's about the broader talent for South Africa.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. And so is transformation strategy. Yeah. It's about the broader South Africa. Yeah. I was having, so this one is controversial, right? Like so I was We've been warned. Yeah. So I was having a conversation with a friend of mine around the the whole movement between, you know, like the fact that um FIFA left Standard Bank to go into AFSA. Right. And I just said actually it's it's actually a good thing. It's not loss of talent for Standard Bank. The other bank, they were having difficulty at a leadership level. And it's okay for us to take a good leader from one environment and put them in that space for stability. We have one of the best banking, um, I mean, we are one of the best banking industry in the whole world, right? And for us to actually then transfer that talent from there to there so that the red bank becomes stable and there's because there has been stability. It's almost a year, it's gonna be a year in two months. Has it been a year already? It's gonna be a year in two months. It's gonna be a year, and there's been stability in that space, right? And he's building the talent in that space. So I think it's quite important for us to actually start looking beyond just what we know, you know, to the to the point that you're making around, you know, there was a particular environment or space that build talent, and those people spread their wings and they went into different spaces. But we see it as we we come from a place of lack, right? Instead of coming from a place of abundance where if we have an abundance of talent, let then it's it benefits us as a country. It benefits the economy of the country. But if we just like, oh no, I just want Sene here. I can't I can't allow Sene to go and work elsewhere so that she can actually go and improve the processes in that place, then I my mindset has to shift, it has to be transformed.
SPEAKER_01I feel like that case study could be a whole episode on its own. Um I'm gonna bring us a little bit closer to home. So go back to the whole human plus AI, AI in the world of work. How do these principles around transformation, race, gender, generational differences, what's at play in this new world of work and what should organizations be thinking about?
SPEAKER_02I think it, you know, the point we were made, we we were making around um designing for people. It's very important that whatever we bring in place from an AI perspective, we understand the impact it has on different people, positive and negative, right? So that we can actually then close the gap when it comes to the negative aspect. So that is one thing. Like it's very important to actually bring the the human um, you know, wear your human cap and and say, okay, fine. I'm not designing just for the fun of it and just to transform the the industry, but I'm in I'm designing for people. Um, and I think also the biasness of some of these AI tools, we we need to actually start looking at it, right? So, like for example, I'm in my um my my space at the moment from a talent um acquisition perspective, but there's there's there are AI tools, lots of AI tools that help in terms of shortlisting CVs and things like that. But these AI tools were not actually designed for the South African context. There is a level of bias, biasedness when it comes to um excluding certain people based on on, we have even seen it, based on race, based on how people actually then um also input the information, right? Which is a diversity um discussion as well. But when I implement something like that in my space, do I actually think about the pot uh you know the possibility or the potential of it excluding certain groups? Yeah. And I think that's what we need to do. So it's good and well, let's bring those tools there, but we need to make sure that we we we close the gap when it comes to those the levels of of biasness that we have. And also some people are receptive to these tools and others are not. And how do we bring people um along the change, right? How do we walk the journey with people? And I think change management becomes a very big thing, which is one of the, I mean, it's a capability that we have as IOP. So how we actually put together change management processes in in our environments, that becomes very critical. We need we we can't I I can't stress this much more than I have, but change management is a big, big thing because it's about you know shifting the mindset um of the people. And it's not gonna be a change management process, which is like in a box and uh one size fits all approach. Take into consideration the different generations that you are dealing with, and they are all at different levels. I mean, we've got TikTokers at this point in time that work in in corporate. We've got um the baby boomers. I mean, they they're not the TikTok generation, but some are, but you know, majorities not. So, you know, you have to take into consideration how people engage with these tools. Um, and that's where the generation um conversation also comes in place. But I think for me, the only thing that I'm I'm a little bit like it makes me a little bit uncomfortable is the that whole biasness and how do we how do we how do I catch it before um before it actually creates a bigger thing than it should. So yeah. So I think change, change readiness and walking the journey with people is very important.
SPEAKER_01I think something you touched on is so critical, which is AI and all these like um learning modules and large learning modules, etc. They're learning from history, and what it's is history, it's Western, right? So it doesn't have Afrocentric lenses. So how do we make sure that we cater for that again around the contextual relevance being really important when it comes to bias, um, inclusion and the impact on our people? Um, and then I think also like the part you touched on around um culture and change. Like we're so excited about implementing technology. Yeah, but what does technology mean, right? Like here's a technological platform, everybody use it. Do I trust it? Am I comfortable with it? Do I feel like I can show up within that space? There's so many different layers that sit around it um holistically.
SPEAKER_02I don't know if you if if if you if if you heard um the story around the remember those animated things that those pictures that we were all creating on how we've on Chat Beach.
SPEAKER_01All our personal information is in there.
SPEAKER_02We've all been giving away all our personal information. That's the thing. So and also like then it's a it's a question around when I'm implementing something like that in the work environment. Some people are not comfortable with having the information um, you know, um being in the public. They're not, they don't have LinkedIn profiles, they don't have Facebook. There are people that are genuinely like, I don't trust technology, I don't trust this, they've got these conspiracy theories. Some are conspiracy theories, some are um, you know, they they they actually are factual. But how do you then accommodate individuals that are not comfortable?
SPEAKER_01There's a whole other can of worms around ethics and how you teach people also to use technology in a safe way, right? Because Rafilua has to do a report on talent. She takes all the talent data, she puts it into Chat GPT, which is a public platform or whatever. She hasn't sanitized the data. There we go. There, all your organizational data is gone as well. 100%.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, and and also, I mean, even the ethical use from a I mean, how do we also preserve the the right skills and the knowledge and whatnot? Because it has also become like it's it's it's been misused as well, right? Where you will get a report and you will see, like my team knows, like I can spot a chat GPT from far. Some of the grammatical things drive me crazy. I see three dashes and I'm like, stop it. I'm like, you don't you didn't even bother to change the font, you know. So it's it's it it also makes people, you know, become lazy. But I think in our space it's easier because we were taught how to research, right? Like, and and how to do research is like you, you know, you know the ethical principles around um, you know, like when you quote, when you reference people and things like that. So so I think we in our profession, like it's it's we we kind of like safe. So I I can trust the the IOPS to actually use it um in a safe way. But I have seen the misuse of AI where it's like, you know, I would have my mouth wide open. I'm like, I can't believe that you literally went and copied and pasted the same thing here. There's no, you didn't even actually customize it to the environment and the context. So it's like, oh, you know, just copy and paste it. So you are right, the ethical principles around using this, and maybe that's where we also need to to step in as IOS because ethics are very big in our world.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. I I mean I I often use chat or technology. I don't lie about that. Like I use it. But I also sometimes get frustrated when it doesn't give me what I want. And that's the reality that the role of humans doesn't go away. I can try chat GPT all I want, and then I'll be like, I will shout a chat. I'll type the chat. This is wrong, this is not what I asked for. Then I'll put it away and I'll sit and I'll write whatever. It says, sorry, and redoes the wrong thing. But it's just a reminder that the human lens is so important because you can get any junk from them. But how do you actually use it and make sense of it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's why I'm saying, like, you can actually pick up if somebody has not actually applied themselves to this, you know, the data. Because it's like copy and paste, and like, but you solving for this environment, you just went and gotten something there. And and if you think of old school research, right? That's what we were challenged on, right? Because we we there was plenty of information on Google. And when you went fast, it's like please do not quote Google because people failed to apply themselves. So I think even now, as we are also bringing people through the change and the use of AI in in organizations, it's important to also then still drive that whole messaging that your brain still needs to work to a certain extent. You still need to think and use this just to aid um, you know, your work and your job. It's not replacing you thinking.
SPEAKER_01Rafila, I could keep talking and talking and talking to you, but we have come to the end of our time. Um, I'm gonna end it the way I ask all guests, which is what is a quote, what is the thought that you would like to leave listeners with today?
SPEAKER_02Phew, I have a lot of thoughts. I think for me, it's it's very important to actually understand transformation as we we shouldn't fear it, right? Um, there's there's actually benefits of having diversity in any context. So, you know, different people bring different thoughts, they they bring different views, different ways of doing things. And imagine if you had all of these good skills together, what great outcome you would get. So, so I think not just transformation in terms of diversity, but transforming environments that we work in as well. Um, transformation should not also be viewed as um now there's gonna be this big AI that's gonna change how we do things, but think of it as how is this enhancing um how I work in my workspace? And and I think that's the message that we need to actually bring forth to um you know to our colleagues in in corporate and in organizations. So yeah, so don't fear change, don't fear transformation, just embrace it and see, you know, how great, you know, the great that would come out of that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Thank you, Rafila. I I appreciate the opportunity for us to have dialogues like this because I think it's also in dialogue where we share ideas and we dispel notions. Um, and I think for me, this dialogue has been a classic example of where real transformation is at play. And if we want transformation to happen, we ourselves need to step into those shoes and play an active role. I'm excited for our profession. I'm excited for our society. So thank you very much for joining us, Rafila.
SPEAKER_02Thanks for inviting me.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for joining us on this episode of the IOP lens. If you enjoyed it, like, subscribe, and share. Another really impactful conversation as we think about our profession and transformation. Join us again on the IOP lens, where psychology meets people and where professionalism meets humanity.