S1E7: From Then to Now: The SIOPSA Story ft. Dr Ruwayne Kock & Dr Sharon Munyaka

From Then to Now: The SIOPSA Story and the Changing Landscape of IOP Practice | The IOP Lens

In this episode of The IOP Lens, Dr Sane Ngidi is joined by Dr Sharon Munyaka and Dr Ruwayne Kock to reflect on the journey of the Society for Industrial and Organisational Psychology of South Africa and the evolution of the IOP profession.

The conversation explores key milestones in SIOPSA’s history, the changing landscape of practice, and the importance of documenting the profession’s story. Together, they reflect on how the past informs the present, and how the profession can continue to grow in relevance and impact.

This episode connects legacy, identity, and the future of industrial and organisational psychology.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:21

Welcome to the IOP lens, where we get to the real stories behind industrial and organizational psychology. It's about real people, real journeys, and the moments that shape us as a profession. I'm really excited today because we are going to delve into the Psyopsas story. So reflecting on the story and the path ahead for us as a society. Joining me today are two past presidents. I believe they call them elders for the terms that they have served, and we'll get a little bit more into that. I'm joined by Dr. Rowane Koch and Dr. Sharon Munyaka. Woo-hoo! Let me read a little bit about these impressive individuals so you can also get into the vibe. So our guest today is Dr. Sharon Munyaka, an industrial psychologist, leadership consultant, mediator, and microlegal expert. She works with senior leaders across South Africa and globally in executive development, organizational transformation, and the future of work. She's also the co-editor of the Psyopsa Story, Past, Present, and Future Book Project. In this episode, we'll reflect more on that. Joining her is the award-winning organizational psychologist, practitioner, and academic with experience across industries and global markets. His work spans leadership development, diversity, equity, and inclusion, talent management, executive coaching, and organizational change. He's the founder of Authentic Organizations, a consultancy dedicated to helping marginalized professionals and leaders thrive at work. Dr. Koch is also a professor of practice at the University of Johannesburg and is widely recognized for his impact in the IOP space. Thank you both for joining us. I think having looked at both of you through my own career, I feel incredibly privileged to be seated here with you today. And yes, we are wearing our Psyopsa blazers in recognition of being Psyopsa president. So must give that a moment. To get us started, how did you begin or choose the path of being an IO psychologist? And maybe I'll start with you, Sharon.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Wow, I guess the path found me because my undergrad was in psychology. So I looked at different pathways. And I thought I would get into clinical psychology, but I'm such a joyful person. I'm always looking for sunshine and beautiful, amazing things. And I thought, how do I do that? How do I intersect who I am with the work that I do? And then I heard about industrial psychology. I was like, ooh, I love it, I love it, I love it. And that's how the journey started. And yeah, the journey found me. It feels so resonant. The journey found me. So when you when you went into university, you knew what clinical psychology was. I knew what clinical psychology was. And part of it was just as a child trying to have questions around trauma, looking at what was going on around me, stuff like, you know, you've got family members who are alcoholics, and you're like, Yay, how do we fix this kind of behavior? So the clinical psychology was present, but the industrial, it wasn't. It wasn't a conversation. Even when I started my masters, the lecturer was like, Oh no, you can just get into HR. So thinking about it now, even the people that were teaching didn't have the full understanding of what the profession was all about. And this is way back when, people, 2002. So it's a very long time ago.

SPEAKER_04 4:03

I think that resonates in terms of falling into IO psychology, but I think what also resonates is the experiencing real life challenges and trying to find a solution for it and going the clinical route. Yeah. We all know no IOP stories alike. So, Rowane, how did you end up here?

SPEAKER_00 4:22

It's actually amazingly the same. Um, I stumbled across um industrial and organizational psychology. Um, so back when I going back to the 80s and 90s, we're not going to be specific on years. I mean, the people that I grew up with were doctors, nurses. Those were the professions that people went into. Uh, my mother's a teacher. We've got, you know, in our family, we have a family of teachers, and and so uh the expectation was that I become a teacher. And so when I went to university, I thought, well, what can I do in case this, you know, in case I want to do something else. So I started commerce. And so part of the commerce degree, I did uh business economics and industrial psychology. And at the end of my degree, it's like, what do I do now? And um I remember it was the January of the year. Uh I was supposed to go back and do my teacher's diploma, and I thought, let me go to then it was the University of Port Elizabeth. And I knocked on Professor Campus' door and I said, I want to do my honors. And he said, No, our program is full. Sorry. I said to him, here's all my details. And the next day he called me and I was into the I got into the honors program. And that's really when I started loving what industrial psychology was about. I think before then I was just, you know, it was a subject you did to get your degree. And I was fortunate to have mentors like uh Professor Theo Feltzmann. And at that point in time when I met Theo, I re- I started to realize what industrial psychology could look like and what a job could look like within the field. And so that's how I stumbled across it. And for I did my master's and then my internship through uh with the University of Johannesburg, and and Theo was my supervisor and also uh for both my master's and also for my internship as well. And this was um 25 years ago that I became an industrial organizational psychologist.

SPEAKER_04 6:11

Sure. I love that. I love the joining the dots. So Prof. Theo Feldzman has been a guest on the podcast. So I love the joining of the dots. Um what stands out for you in your profession or having been an IOP as like pivotal moments in your career?

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Is that at me?

SPEAKER_04 6:30

Yeah, go for it.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

So I think once you once you know the kind of hype up to the registration and now you're psychologist, now what, right? You go into organizations and they don't have the a job of industrial psychology. So I spent a lot of my time in HR. And I think I uh the the profession, the role as industrial psychologist was not salient for me at that point in time. I I I defined myself more as an HR practitioner than an industrial psychologist. And I think as I as I exited um corporate and started doing my own business, I started realizing how important this role as an industrial psychologist was and started embracing it. So, foremost for me, I identify as an industrial and organizational psychologist, and I happened to work within the people's space. And that took me a long time to get to that point because I that you know the profession is evolving, and there's not a lot of people that proudly stand up in organizations and say, I'm an industrial psychologist. We don't appoint industrial psychologists in organizations, that's shifting now. Um, and so for me it's it's uh it's almost like in the last 10 years that I really have uh embraced the the identity, the role identity of being an industrial organization psychologist. And so for me, what's what stands out is just the you know, the almost kind of almost been ashamed of the profession and how it took me a while to really feel proud to stand up. And I identify myself and foremost as a psychologist, and then a psychologist that works in the workspace. And so that's how, and for me, that's a proud proud identity that I that I embrace these days.

SPEAKER_04 8:04

I I think I've experienced that also in in my time when lecturing master students they find themselves where they've spent all of this time studying, they've gotten to this pivotal point at the end of their their academic career, they're about to enter the world of work, and then they're like, they're putting us in HR. And why why does my job not say I'm an IO psychologist? How are people going to recognize that I'm an industrial psychologist? And how will they know that I'm different from the HR people? Right? How do you navigate that, Sharon?

SPEAKER_01 8:39

So just listening to what you were saying, Rouen, and saying how you feel like I'm now an IOP. So for me, it's around how our program is so diverse. You can go in any direction. So for me, the professionalization was important. I'm also seeing how people are understanding the work that we do now. So people will say, Oh, I'm having a section 189. We need to have an industrial psychologist as part of the team to help us take care of the people. Because if our job is to understand people at work, we understand behavior, we have theories, we have paradigms, and in my work, also it's around the independence. So that has become more true in the last couple of years, especially being involved in kind of like complex conflict, um, riddled spaces where integrity is important, the ability to remain inside, but also outside the system. So I am not an employee, but I come in as a partner. And so what our field has done has enabled us to participate in the world of work guiding, creating containers, and problem solving. And I think that's exciting. And for me, 2026, looking back at the journey, I think, wow, students who are getting out of the program now are in a much better place. They can dream, they can fit in climate change, they can fit in the future of food, they can fit in, you know, your typical corporate organization because of all the work that has happened and the understanding of what our work is about. So the world of work is anywhere. It's not just in bricks and mortar, it's in informal spaces. That's what we do, and that's what has been pivotal for me when I look at the evolution of our workers' IOPs. We are doing amazing work. I can feel the pride.

SPEAKER_06 10:47

Yeah, I'm looking proud. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:51

I think I love this time of year as well. Because like every time I log on to LinkedIn, I see people have posted like I've passed my board exam, and and I comment on every single one of those posts because you know what it takes to get that far in the career, but that's just the beginning, right? That's just the beginning. Um tell me a little bit about each of your journeys with Psyopsa, right? So you've you've become um, or in your journey to becoming an IOP, there's the opportunity around professional associations um and what they present, and would like to delve a little bit more into unpacking Psyopsa and the story. But before we get there, what was your first intersection with Psyopsa, Sherry?

SPEAKER_01 11:36

So I was at Fort Hair in Alice at Degen. Right? So get on the bus. And I love the story because now it makes sense. I'm older, it's 24 years later. I'm like, my gosh. Even though there wasn't clarity around what IOP was, there was an understanding that there's a professional home. Our lecturer insisted, you're gonna go and present your posters. Um, you've done all these different projects, you need to go and present. So we jump on the bus, a greyhound in King Williamstown, sleep at the Formula One. I don't know if the Formula One still exists, you know.

SPEAKER_04 12:12

We remember it.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Yes. And I think it was at the CSIR. We went to present. And one of the things that struck me was, wow, I would want to be in this space. It looked organized. But what also struck me in the same vein, there were few people that looked like me. And that bothered me. I was like, so how do I participate in this? And that's where I left with more questions around professionalizing, around where I would get to work. And I see that's still a role. So conference matters because it was at conference where I got the insight of Psyopsa. And I took a little bit of a gap after that. I think I came back into Psyopsa probably 2012 when we were setting up the Eastern Cape Branch and became branch chair and then head of medical legal and 20 was it 2020 or 2021 became president-elect and then served as president. And I never left. I'm still here, and I'm not leaving anywhere. And we love it because it's my professional home. And for me, it has been about owning the space, and because my journey to even get an internship registered was so hard, it was so painful. I said, never again. And this is my own personal mission. Whatever space I get into, I want to leave it better than I found it. So I will do whatever I can to make sure no other intern who looks like me struggles to get into a program, struggles to get information and actually do better for themselves because they do the masters, and then what? So that's my personal mission. Um, with making sure Psyopsa keeps working. So I'm right on that pass with you in that movie.

SPEAKER_04 14:11

So do that. I think if for me, if I just hear that part of your story, um very much the same experience of as a as an IOP who is in corporate most of my life. Yeah, conference is the one event that I would go to every year that reminded me that I was an IOP, right? Like I could forget for the rest of the year, but then I would go to conference and I would be like, oh, flip, this is what I do, and this is why I do what I do. And then I can also really resonate with the barriers to access, right? Like I studied at VITS, I did my BCOM, um, and then for some reason, I don't know how, I had it, I had an extra major unnecessarily, but when I went to register for my final year, they said that I had done there was a module that I hadn't done, which was a compulsory module. And so I was gonna have to come back for a whole year to do one module. And uh for me to be able to do my honors at the same time as that, I would have to get approval from the faculty. I went to the faculty, IOP department said no, I must finish my degree and then come back. So I'd waste a year doing one module. My mother got on a flight, she came to Joe Burg, she spoke to the dean. I did my honors the next year and I completed. But not everybody has got the resources or the means, and not everybody has got a parent who can get on a plane and come and fight with the dean to get access, and so those things around barriers continue to exist, and those are the things that we need to fight. And then the two of you are a very big part of my story about why I'm sitting here as president. So that looking up and seeing people who are like you, and then having people who will sponsor, mentor, push you to get there, like we need that. That's how you transform a society.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Yeah, right, right. Kick it over to you. Yeah, no, I think it's a similar story, right? And I think for me, when I stepped into the conference space, because that's very symbolic, that's the as you talk about coming to conference, I didn't feel that I belonged. And I actually exited for almost 20 years. Because I didn't, I didn't, I couldn't associate with the people, I couldn't associate with um, I just didn't feel I belonged. And I think a turning point, I think Natasha Winkletitis uh was president that year, and and uh Marissa Brower, right? I think that's the that was the the year. And they were looking for someone to come and assist with transformation um of the society of the association. And I and my view is that if you're gonna bring someone into that transformation role, not being aware of what's been done before, now we've become aware of it, right? And so I I was part of MANCO, I stepped in, and my role was to drive transformation, and that's been my key uh driver agenda for the last since I've since I've joined um in 2020 uh back into Exco. Uh from there, in terms of just uh making sure that uh, you know, often we talk about representation. And if you look at our stats, we we don't have the latest stats and we should get that. But from 2024, only 30% of psychologists are black. We're talking about 2024. Um and so, yes, representation matters, but also once we enter into the field, into the association, do we feel that we matter? Do we feel that our voices are heard? Can we speak up about the dysfunction or the inequalities that we see within in the society? And a lot of of our younger uh IOPs don't have the agency. So it's put on us as uh more senior psychologists to create those opportunities. And one of the things I'm most proud of is the internship management program that we started to create opportunities, particularly for black psychologists, uh masters graduates that are sitting at home uh and not able to complete their professionalization. And what that vehicle did was create opportunities for those. And we were fortunate to get uh a um sponsorship for the for the internship management program, and and that will allow more black people to finish their their professionalization, which has been a big obstacle and a structural inequality in our association. And so for me, the work is not done. I think often we think that now that we're in, now that more people are registering, the work is done, we should sit back. Actually, the work has just started. Um, and how do we create a place where people really feel that uh not only that they are represented, but their voices are heard and they're part of the community, and and that's a work that continues.

SPEAKER_04 18:54

There's something about that that's also about what agency do we use as individuals, right? So that that that timing resonates very much with how I came back actively into Psyopsa. So I had been going for the annual conference, then I did my PhD, and when I did my PhD, I was like, yo, I've got bigger problems.

SPEAKER_03 19:17

I'm getting my CPD points from doing this thing, and then I finished my PhD, and then I was like, oh, where are those Psyopsa people again?

SPEAKER_04 19:24

I need them. And I remember I went onto LinkedIn and it was um president-elect season, and I looked at all the candidates. I was like, these are the same people who were there when I was there, and I've been gone for an age. And I did the mature thing and I put a rant on LinkedIn, and Marissa Browers messaged me and she said, We see you're passionate about transformation in the society.

SPEAKER_03 19:47

Those things that you're unhappy about, come and do something about them.

SPEAKER_04 19:50

And here I am now having to do something about it. But there's also something about using our voices, and then once we do get the opportunity, stepping up to do something about it.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

But what's important is also collective agency.

SPEAKER_05 20:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

And I think what we've managed to do through the Biop Caucus, which um is a platform for black psychologists to share their frustrations and for us to collectively uh deal with the challenges that they experience, gives us a collective voice. Yeah. So I think the onus is often placed on the individual to resolve some of the structural uh challenges which are hard to deal with. But the collective voice that we've created through biop makes it easier, puts the pressure off the individual, and and as a collective, we can address this. And so for me, what's important is not just individual agency, but the collective agency that we as black uh psychologists as well.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Yeah. And I think in addition to that, it's not just on black psychologists. Right. You know, so for my presidency, one of the things that was clear is there's some voices that are missing. So the whole notion of one psyopsa, that we have different pockets. We have different pockets who need to be part of that collective agency. Because if you're talking about how we create opportunities, sometimes it's someone who gives an opportunity, someone who speaks up about hang on, why do we still look like this? Who else is missing from this conversation? Who else is missing in the structures? So I think it's a call for all of us, actually. Black, white, short, tall, all of us actually have to care enough about our profession because if we don't ensure that our profession is reflective of what's going on in society, we risk being irrelevant. So the work for me is about all of us actually stepping up.

SPEAKER_04 21:42

I think what's important about that is because the spheres of influence sit everywhere, not just in the society. They sit in academia, in corporate, in the society, and therefore all of us need to be part of the ecosystem for change.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

Absolutely. Otherwise, you burden one group and you would get exhausted. So if we all contribute to creating a place where we belong, then we can create a better association. Exactly. We can advance the profession. And that's what we're here for, right? And that's why we stepped into these leadership roles to advance the profession.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

And it's volunteering. I think people forget, okay, because I'm too active. People said you work for Psyopsia. I'm like, no, I don't work for Psyops. It's volunteering. And part of that, I think the conversation with many black people is where do I get the time? So you spoke about mom jumping on a flight, coming to speak on your behalf. If I think of my parents, they were at work. So they would have probably thought, hey, brah, you need to fix it. They were not gonna come because at work it requires and getting permission and all of that. So how do we enable? How do we enable agency in terms of how we're structured and how we're making it possible for people to participate in Psyopsa?

SPEAKER_04 23:02

Yeah, I've had a few people who have said to me, Oh, so the whole Psyopsa thing is another job, you get paid for it. I'm like, no, this is volunteering, but it's the passion. It's the passion and wanting our society to thrive and really believing in our profession. So fast forward. What sparked the idea, Sharon, of documenting the Psyopsa story? What happened at that Jubilee?

SPEAKER_03 23:29

Let us in.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

It's a Jubilee. Yeah. So we were celebrating a milestone. It was 25 years of conference, but it wasn't 25 years of Psyopsa. So for me, that was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What do you mean it's not 25 years of Psyopsa? So based on who was speaking, the inception of Psyopsa was different. The journey to Psyopsa was different. So there were nuances that popped up. So it was a very organic conversation around where did we actually begin? So I said, okay, if we are saying this is we're celebrating 25 years of conference, but we don't know the full story. Perhaps as part of conference, let's share from the different voices, kind of what you remember. So we had elders, people who were there in the beginning, and from different angles, people started sharing. But what became clear from the feedback, because remember it was the hybrid, we had the online, we also had the in-person celebration. People wanted to know more. So the gap was there. So you know the saying, unless the lion learns to write, the hunter will always tell the story. So for us as a society, for me, it was very clear we need to document our story from the different angles. We need to get the diversity because the future of Psyopsa is dependent on understanding where did we start from? What happened? Who was part of this? And even for people who are saying, I want to participate, how? What is this story? So it became so important because our many stories matter. And for us as a society, our psyops story is critical.

SPEAKER_04 25:25

Yeah, so just following on on that, Rouaine, why do you think the reflection is important as we think about the future of the society?

SPEAKER_00 25:33

You know, so that older, more mature IOPs like us can sit and hand it over to the younger generation like yourself, Zane, you know, so that you know where we come from. And I think it's an important uh uh project that we've embarked on. And it started in your presidential here. We in my presidential here, we uh continued the work and we're still busy uh writing the book. And I think it's an important piece of work that, as you say, will kind of will that can provide a balanced story. And any person that perhaps wants to go into IOP, unlike how we've had to struggle to figure what this is about, where we belong, here's a story that can be representative of of the people of Seopsa and the people that you know played a role because there's so many people that played a role to where we are today. And each of us build on the work that has uh happened before. And so uh acknowledging that. So sometimes when you know when you tell a story from one perspective, you miss the other perspective. And I think what we're doing through the initiative that Sharon's driving is making sure that we understand it from different perspectives, and it gives us a holistic view, and you know, as an association or society, we've actually achieved so much. And sometimes we get so disillusioned when we're in the mix of it and when we step back like this, it kind of just shows you the amazing work that all of the presidents, the volunteers have done over the years that we've existed as as the opsa. So I think it's an important uh uh piece of work, and I think we we will, I think the generation that comes after this will be grateful for this initiative.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

No, exactly. And I as you're saying, gosh, I was like, my presidency was 2022, 2023, we're in 2026, and I remember tongue in cheek um the publisher saying, this is gonna take a long time. I'm like, oh no, have you met me? It's gonna be quick. But what I've appreciated about the length of time it's taken is it's also a mirror. It's a mirror for us as a society that as we start to unpack, as we step back and look at what we've been doing, it will take time. Some things will get clearer as we discuss, some things will be like, oh my goodness, I didn't experience it like that. And open up a conversation. So, what it's done is it's taken on a different form. Um, it's taken on different energies, people are owning it, which I am loving. And it's just highlighting the many faces. It's like, yeah, this painting. Yeah, it's emerging, and I can't wait to see what it will look like in the end. Mona Lisa. The artists are busy.

SPEAKER_04 28:20

Oh, please like to sing. Yes. Let us into the process. What is the process?

SPEAKER_01 28:26

How are you constructing this? So we started off taking the Jubilee thinking to say, you know, how it started, how it's going. Remember the Twitter challenge, how it started, how it's going, where to from here. And that was an entry into the conversation. So it's kind of kept those major containers, but also kind of evolving because there's overlap. So, for example, if we think about stuff like identity, identity is not a past, present, future. It is a conversation that flows right through. I remember in Fred Guest's year, I think that was what, 2016 or maybe even earlier, there was a lot of work around identity. So different presidents have come up with different flavors in terms of what they want to focus on. So, what we're doing is look at the past. So they're different sides of the fence. So we have Theo Feltzmann and Andrew Johnson who are saying, let's look at it. Theo, as a white Africaner, um, Andrew as a black male, who is saying, this is how I've understood the evolution. We're fortunate that we still have a few people who were there right at the beginning. And because of the passage of time, some of the colleagues have passed away. And so we joke with Theo, like, oh, we need to go to the cemetery and do a seance, and like, okay, tell us what was the thinking when you decided to put this constitution together. But essentially, it's like all this institutional memory rests in cemeteries. There's also um going back to records, we have annual reports, for example, but they go back to 2009. But what happened before that? What were the documentation that we have access to? So we're trying to pull all of that together in terms of the timelines. We said let's look from the beginning until 2012. That would cover kind of your past. So whether it goes back to the beginning of psychology in South Africa until 2012. So Theo and Andrew have been busy with that. And then Natasha is Natasha Winkletis is looking at kind of your present. So from 2013 to 2025, saying, so what has happened? And lots have shifted. You know, we've had different strategies, there's been more visibility of different people and just their intentions for what psyopsa could be, and then the future. And as we've been meeting as a team, it's also recognizing, like, oh, we are the voices of the youth. For example, we can't be writing about the future, we're not gonna be there, probably. But they need to be part of the conversation. So we've tried to dip into different data points and how the process is going. There's been an invitation, you know, share stuff, and we've had um some meetings as well to just try and get people to brainstorm. So now we're trying to consolidate and then submit it to the publishers, and we're crossing fingers, we'll be ready by the time we have conference so we can launch the book. And I think they're gonna be several editions after that because the story doesn't end. Yeah, it's gonna be a continuation, but the intention is really to kind of get that broad framing. Where did we come from? What have we been busy with? And where are we going from here? What does the future of IOP look like in South Africa?

SPEAKER_04 32:00

Yeah, I love the richness in the process, right? It's not as easy as just like getting five people in a room and writing it down, it's a lot richer than that.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. We we need we need more voices because this is our story. So our comes from so many places. And to honor the process has required patience. And because it's voluntary, uh, people have jobs, people have families, so it's also not going as quickly as we would have anticipated, but it is what it is.

SPEAKER_04 32:32

I've been told that I can steal um the thunder of a story. So I'm not asking you here to divulge any punchlines, any great stories or anything that will be in the book. However, as you've gone through this process, are there any milestones or any pieces of the story that you've come across that are like, wow, do you know what I mean? Like, is there anything that's popping up?

SPEAKER_01 33:00

So what's popping up? So we did a book project a few years ago, 2021. Rouen and I were involved with Theo and a couple of colleagues. I was looking at that book today. So we've been documenting. So what's interesting is everyone has a story, everyone has kind of a lens around what happened. So that has been quite interesting. The timelines have been quite a oh, okay. Because one also needs to situate it within context. What was going on in the country at that time, right? What's also exciting for me, now we have AI as well, and conference theme, also, how apt, and just looking at the possibilities. So for me, it's just looking at the flow of the psyopside journey and saying, my, my, my, from being very research-focused, there's been even in terms of who the presidents have been, you know, it was typically academics. Now we have people in independent practice, people who are in corporate. So, yeah, it's gonna be an interesting read.

SPEAKER_04 34:15

I wonder when we start to think about who this book is targeted at, who do you think the recipients or the end readers will be, Rowe?

SPEAKER_00 34:24

You know, I speak to a lot of uh young people that are um perhaps can't make up their mind whether they want to major in industrial psychology, right? And I think that's um, and the kind of conversations I have with them is, you know, if you if you could use this as a reference point or reference uh uh guide for those individuals. Uh I've had a number of folks saying, you know, I don't want to do international studies, but I want I want to do uh finance, but you know, this industrial psychology is actually also quite you know interesting.

SPEAKER_04 34:56

So I think for me that's that's everything that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

Well, yeah, well, from our vantage point, right? And so so so I think it's a for me, I I want to start there. That young person that can't make up their mind what they want to do. I think once undergrad, you you're kind of you're doing a number of such uh subjects. For me, it becomes significant once you start specializing and you're doing an honors and a master's, and sometimes those decisions are hard to make. It's also for those that then step into into the role, into you know, that journey to do the professionalization. And I think it's also for people that don't work in the space to get them to understand. Can you imagine giving it to your children to say, here's what mommy does, here's what daddy does, right? And so often, I mean, people don't know what we do as industrial and organizational psychologists. And I think, Sharon, what you said earlier was really powerful, is that you know, where work happens, that's where we work, that's where our work is. I mean, this is this is a work space, this is a work context. It happens here, it happens on the street where the workers um are busy fixing the infrastructure. And so for me, that it's also for those that are not in our area. Um, and hopefully it will also find itself in academic references uh or uh academic spaces where people use this as a way of talking about the evolution of a profession. And so for me, there are so many applications uh around where this could be useful.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

And I think, you know, to add on to what Rouen is saying, I think it's a resource book for us beyond navel gazing. I think it's an important resource book to say, oh my goodness, this is how we got here. And to open up the conversation around saying never again, open up a conversation of actually here's an opportunity. So, like when we do, I mean, when we did our PhDs, we left with questions, where else could one take this work forward? And I think for me, that's the opportunity. Where else could we go? We've always constelled Psyopsa in a particular way. But for the ones that are gonna come after us, what does that look like? You know, so we're doing this podcasting, it hadn't been part of our repertoire as Psyopsa. So perhaps this is, you know, kind of signaling the change. Um, if we're saying, you know, young people are not really interested in reading a book, maybe it's in these conversations where people engage and say, oh, so if I want to get into climate change as an IOP, how would I do that? So it's also a data point about what is possible for us in our field because the stories that people share are also indicative of, oh, so this person is doing assessments, this person is a global consultant, this person is working in the NPO space, this person is in government. My gosh, I can go anywhere. So our book becomes important as a resource book for anyone who's interested, and other societies. Because I think we've done a lot of work in terms of structuring, organizing, and trying to create a home for our profession. So I think other professional bodies can learn from us.

SPEAKER_04 38:11

As you said that, I'm just thinking if we launch the the, not if, when launch the conference in July.

SPEAKER_03 38:23

At the end of this presidency, we'll make sure it becomes an audiobook. Yeah, and I'll volunteer my voice to read. You can read the story, but let's make it an audiobook. Absolutely. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 38:37

Audio book, yeah. I mean, that's the possibilities, right? I mean, if you have this baseline, I mean, there's so much that we can do around this, right? And so targeting audiences in different ways. And I think, I mean, I we we're gonna July, we'll we'll launch it. And there's so the the the you know, there's so many possibilities. The you know, the sky's the limit in terms of what we can do with that. I'm I'm very excited about that.

SPEAKER_04 38:59

Yeah. I think um we spent quite a bit of time in the in the past few months um re-engaging with stakeholders and and partners, especially where we have uh MOUs, so our partnership space, yeah, and very much there's also an opportunity there, right? Like other professional bodies to leverage our story and learn from it as well. So from the cross-sharing and and the cross-learning um aspects as well. Sharon, thinking about Psyopsa and the practical influence or impact in South Africa, what space has Psyopsa played in to really shift workplaces with real impact in South Africa?

SPEAKER_01 39:41

So I will use um as a reference point. So we are on social media, we are invited into newsrooms, we're invited on to radio shows to give input. They know us. Do you know how delightful that is? Like what you want us? Yeah, because we understand work. We have also been invited into spaces to make decisions around how organizations work, so there is some traction in policy. We serve, I mean, um, what's our colleague who's now on the HPCSA board? Um Lungile Lungile Langa is an industrial psychologist serving on the HPCSA board. We are a part of the conversation of shifting policy. It's important work. We are on governance structures in higher education, we're serving on boards. We, I mean, you are all in senior leadership positions in organizations in South Africa, the base is industrial psychology. So it's an exciting time for our profession in South Africa because we are intervening in different ways. We are intervening in terms of knowledge sharing, we're intervening in terms of using our tools to further how spaces operate. I'm a big proponent for humanizing workspaces. My job, if I say with all the different clients I work with, what's the common denominator? Humanizing workspaces. And it's happening, it's happening in real time. But the brief is we want you to create respect for workplaces. So people are starting to understand our work, and it's actually influencing how leaders operate. We have IOPs who are coaching, so they're bringing in the behavioral side, but also understanding that, oh, we're having conversations with a purpose. They're within particular guidelines. And I think for me, the biggest thing is around the professionalizing, the fact that people are doing their board exams, the fact that people are coming to conference and making sure they have their CPD points. For me, there's compliance. There's also ensuring we remain aligned to what the Health Professions Council is saying. So IOPs are not going anywhere. We're here to stay and will continue to be an integral part of how organizations at different levels are going to operate. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

If I may, we're also taking it into education. So you think about how do we educate leaders, right? We're taking those principles into those educational spaces and using those behavioral signs, knowledge, and understanding to equip leaders with the right skills. But I also want to take it a little further, uh, Sune, than South Africa. Um, if you think about what we've created in South Africa, it's truly world-class, I would suggest, in terms of how we've, you know, our forefathers, I mean, calling forefathers or elders, have the infrastructure that they've created and how we've set up the profession. So if you look at just our neighbors like Namibia, Botswana, I mean, those in people come, those masters graduates or honors graduates sometimes, or graduates come to South Africa, get trained here, and then they go back into their into their different uh uh countries to to do the work that we do there. And I think as COPSA, we perhaps could also play a broader role in how do we expand the profession in the same way that we've built it in South Africa, in our neighboring countries, East Africa, West Africa. I think that's where the opportunity lies. We've we we've we've put this recipe together, and I think the book would be a great way of taking this into the rest of the continent and help, you know, the different setting up associations. I'm working with one country at the moment where I'm helping them to set up a syopsa. Uh, and I'm working with young people, and that's so amazing. And I know that you know, they're gonna look back on their journey and think about, you know, this is where we've come from, you know, and it's gonna be 25 years for them as well. And so I think beyond just the workplaces, I think we we could play even a bigger role in terms of. How do we get uh this profession to be relevant across the continent as well?

SPEAKER_04 44:04

Yeah. Staying on that theme, Rouen, what else should Psyopsa should we as Psyopsa be doing to really push ourselves um to have greater impact as a profession, right? Because sometimes it's easy to do the things we're doing because they're comfortable. Yeah. But how should we be pushing ourselves a little out of our comfort zones for impact?

SPEAKER_00 44:27

You know, my my default is like, how do we create a profession where everyone felt feels that it's representative? So we need to start there. This profession is not representative yet. We're on the journey, we're committed to it, but we need to get there. I think when I, you know, when I travel when I traveled to the U US and I looked at the work that SYOB does in the US, I mean, there's a lot that we can learn from them, there's a lot that they can learn from us as well. So, for example, when it comes to legislation and policy recommendation, you spoke about that, Sharon, but we're not playing enough of a role in terms of how do we influence policy when it comes to work and the psychology of work and the behavioral science within the South African context. So I think we can play a better role as a society. Individuals are playing roles, but as the opsa, what role do we play with the Department of Labor and Employment? How do we influence policy in in that regard? But we also can influence it beyond that, right? And I think that there we we as a society we need to look at where we can expand our influence and use our skills to create these humane workplaces that we talk about. And so I think there's there's lots of opportunities still for us to expand our reach and our influence as well as a society, as uh particularly and I mean Department of Labor, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 45:45

Why are we not in that second economy? Where are we with working with in the informal sector?

SPEAKER_02 45:52

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 45:53

I, you know, all these incubators, I'm like, where are the IOPs? Where are we with the innovation hubs? Where are we? Where are we in terms of high unemployment? This is our work, this is what we do. And you're right, we seek those places of comfort. We seek spaces that are familiar, like, okay, so we're gonna follow a particular script. But what we are not always seeing, and I think this is our blind spot, we leave our degree, we leave the internship and you know, come armed with this professionalization. There's so much we can do, and yet it's almost like we're waiting for permission. Like, oh, can you go and do this? But actually, we are independent practitioners, which means we can organize, we need to activate our curiosity. Where are the spaces that I'm living? I notice that the taxis only move in the morning, and then between 11 and 3, there's no activity. So what is that? I was reading something on Twitter, someone picked up that trend to say, for me, if that's happening in the township that we're living in, there's no activity because movement is only before 11. And then from 4 o'clock when people are going home, what happens in between? Where are we in terms of intervening and actually saying, so as IOPs, how could we organize the social ills that we're finding in society? For me, that's what prompted the journey to psychology because of seeing not only family members, but also people around me. Like we have a pandemic around alcohol. So for us as IOPs, where are those acupuncture points that actually impact, that are catalytic, that are scalable, that don't always need a lot of money, but we already have the skills and we go in and support. So Psyops has got a big, big, big job to play in this country. And we just need to be bolder and audacious and do the thing.

SPEAKER_04 48:02

If we if we think about our legacy, um if Iops look at the our past 40 years or our history of what's gotten us here, what do you hope that they would say about the influence we've had um as an IOP body as Psyopsa?

SPEAKER_01 48:22

For me, it's like we've changed the trajectory. The image that comes up is of a river. The river was flowing in a particular way. At particular points in the journey, the river flowed in different directions. And it's up to us to say, okay, the river is gonna keep flowing. Are we gonna build a bridge? Are we gonna have debris that stops the river from flowing in that direction and it takes a different route? What are we actually gonna do? So when I look back, 40 years of this work, it'll be we changed the direction, we changed the conversation, we changed the flow and the strength of that river. We did that as a collective, all of us in our different ways. The fact that people can understand a little bit about what we do. I know my father still thinks, what do you do again, actually? Because he sees me at home and then I am traveling left, right, and says, But what's your job, Ashley Kashley? What do you do? And like, you know, I work with people. So there is that there is that shift in how that river is flowing. And it's gonna have speed and power. So yeah, we've done something.

SPEAKER_00 49:39

But think about how the world is changing as well, right? And now today we talk about AI, and just to put your con the opsa conference as a human and so how do we coexist, right? I mean, so and so it's AI today. What is the what is the the next kind of rupture as as we as we talk about you know the the the the rupture within the rules-based world order? What is the next? And I think we we could play a role beyond just what we traditionally, I think we sometimes navel gaze a little bit. And so if we could, as you I think you said, let's lift our head and look at what what is lying ahead today as technology, what is the next kind of uh you know, kind of uh change that will happen, and how do we help organizations uh to navigate the complexities of these changes using the science that we have, using the practice that we have. And I think we got a huge role to play uh going forward as well. Um and I think that the conference coming up is going to give us a great opportunity, uh Sane, to help us have those conversations.

SPEAKER_04 50:40

Rowane.

SPEAKER_01 50:41

Can't wait to go. That's gonna be so exciting. Can I add yes? That's AI. I think also it's around optimizing on these situations. How we moved across to having online conferences was because of COVID. So it was Natasha's year. It's like, okay, so we have these restrictions. What are we gonna do? What it has enabled is for people who could not always travel, because again, it's about access, people who wanted to be a part of the conversation suddenly found themselves being in the room with, oh, it is Dr. Rouain, oh, it's this author of this book, it's whatever, and being able to engage. So in crisis, it's also an opportunity for us to really think about how we how we shift things. So I'm pretty excited about what is gonna come up with our conference on AI and what you are going to share with us over that week.

SPEAKER_03 51:43

There's a reason why the two of you are here: the ability to merge the story with our theme of human plus AI and where we find ourselves. Ruane, it's looks like you read my notes.

SPEAKER_04 51:54

The question I was gonna ask you was if Psyopsa was founded today in the world of AI, remote work, hybrid work, um, rapid organizational change, what might the founders have done differently?

SPEAKER_00 52:11

I mean, if you even if you ask the founders what they did then, I think they they just figured it out, right? And I think this is part of what we are trained to do is to help organizations, employees to navigate complexities. And I think that, you know, I think it look, I think we would have figured it out. That's my that's my bottom line. I think we would have figured it out. I think it's brought with it so many um, like you said, uh challenges to the way we do things and created opportunities to do things differently. And and a lot of people were resistant, right? And a lot of people are let's keep the old, let's not move. And I but a lot of the young people are embracing the new and want to see things being done differently. And if we're gonna continue, just want to uh maintain the status quo, we're gonna we're gonna lose a lot of people. I think what the technology and the way you know new order provides us with is an opportunity to think about the work that we do differently, uh to approach it from a different perspective. Remember, a lot of what we do is based on science and research and opens opportunities to uh to do research from a different perspective, to think about, think about what's happening in terms of research uh around AI and, for example, counseling, AI and coaching. Who would have thought that a uh a bot or a you know uh generative AI could be providing uh coaching to an individual independent of an external coach? Who would have ever thought of that? But it's here, and we have a role to play to make sure that we provide the guardrails for those, right? And so, what role do we play as as industrial organizational psychology to put ethical guidelines in place? And I think the Health Professionals Council has started doing that. Uh, South Africa's putting some some guidelines around AI together as well. And I think we have a role to play here too. And so, you know, the rules of engagement is very different from when, you know, 40 odd years ago. And so the way we think about the guardrails to make sure that people operate in an ethical way is going to be different as well. And I think we as Iopologists have a role to play with in the workplace to create those guardrails as well.

SPEAKER_04 54:15

100%. We're very serious people, IOPs. Really? Very serious. You are serious now. We'd love to hear from either of you a lighter story, something that stands out from you in your career, which just highlights our profession, but from a lighter side.

SPEAKER_01 54:37

So a story I was sharing with um with Rouen earlier. You know, when you're reminded that dreams are valid. So last week I met a mentor of mine, one of my first mentors. Um, so it's 24 years later, and she's like, This girl, this girl really demonstrate the work of leadership. And she spoke of humble proximity. And so it's light, it's light, it's light, but also quite humble proximity, humble, very lighting. But it's it's just something that I would want to share with all of us and you know, other leaders who are listening in terms of how we create opportunity. It's not always scripted. So the lightness that's required in just being attentive to what's around. This woman saw something in me that I had not seen yet. She took me around everywhere was that intern who took copious notes, who made PowerPoint, who was, you know, enthusiastic, and she created spaces for me to talk, to dream, and she listened and encouraged. And I think we have a job there. Everything doesn't need to be neat and tidy. So it's gonna be in the mundane, it's gonna be in the random coffee. And I want to challenge us to also just open up a little bit and just say, you know, it's really hectic. Why don't you come on over to my house? I'm doing gardening, but we can chat while I do gardening, while I'm folding laundry. You know, it doesn't always need to be neat and tidy and formal. So that's my jam. I meet you where you are.

SPEAKER_00 56:23

I can't even think of a lighthearted thing. That's how serious we are. Conceptually, I can't think of the framework that can fit into the light-hearted part of the story. Look, I think, you know, I think about the teams that I work with, right? And I I, you know, I I really appreciate um the role models that I had. So, I mean, I talked about Professor Theo Feltzman, and he played an important role in who I became as a psychologist. And I work with young people, and I was having the conversation with them today, and I said to them, um, you know, I don't want you to become like me because you are so, you know, you I want you to bring more of yourself to the profession and show up as you because if you role model me, you are role modeling an old person. So I want you to take what you've learned and do what you would do as a young person. So, for example, TikTok. Take TikTok and pick take that concept of TikTok and put it on LinkedIn and use and have fun with it. There's a seriousness about it, but you can also have fun within that seriousness. And I really challenge my team to think about what is the what is the that young part that you bring, how can you bring that into the profession and stop role modding old people like myself, right? We are great, of course, but I mean but I think we have done we have done things the old way, we've conditioned in the old way, and I would love to see more of the younger, fresh perspectives to our profession. Yeah, and so that's what I encourage the young people that I work with.

SPEAKER_04 58:03

I often ask guests to leave us with a final closing word, message, quote uh, for our guests. Anything that comes to mind, Rowane?

SPEAKER_00 58:12

Um look, I I I don't have a quote. Um, I think that uh we have um done a lot, but I think we should I I believe we should not be complacent and step back and say, okay, the work's done now. I think there's a lot more work to be done. And I think as Iopsychologists, I invite uh my fellow colleagues not to sit back but to get involved with COPS or be part of the change that you want to see in the society. Um if if we don't do it, who will do this work? And so that's my encouragement. So sometimes we look at it and say, Oh, we've we've achieved uh a lot, but we have a lot more to do as a society.

SPEAKER_01 58:51

Thank you. Amazing, Sharon? So I'm looking at this audience that are gonna be listening, that the success of an intervention is dependent on the interior condition of the intervener. We all gotta do our work, man. We all have to look within and say, what's my stuff? If I am gonna volunteer, what does that mean? If I look at my own journey, what has happened, what do I need to think about when I look at others who are coming along? As a parent, I want to make sure our universities work. I want to make sure our spaces of work are inviting, are not breaking spirits. I want leaders who are kinder and nurturing. And so, yeah, the success of the intervention starts with looking within.

SPEAKER_04 59:40

Thank you, Sharon. Thank you, Ruin. I've had a wonderful time with my dear elders here. Yes. But most importantly, just being able to reflect on the impact of Psyopsa as a society, knowing that there's a journey we've been on, but most importantly, there's so much more that we have the opportunity to influence. So thank you for your time. Looking forward to the Psyopsa story and the richness it brings. If you've enjoyed this episode, join us again for the IOP lens. Like, subscribe, follow. Don't forget to join us at the July Psyopsa conference where we talk about human plus AI. And most importantly, if the topics have intrigued you, it's areas of interest, join us, join Psyopsa and find out more.