IOP LENS
The IOP Lens is a SIOPSA podcast that brings together practitioners, leaders, and scholars in Industrial and Organisational Psychology to explore the issues shaping the future of work. Our aim is to make IOP thinking accessible, relevant, and impactful for both practitioners and decision-makers. Each episode contributes to SIOPSA’s broader professional dialogue.
IOP LENS
S1E11: Charting the Next Chapter Ft. Prof. Nicola Taylor
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Charting the Next Chapter: A Conversation with Incoming President Professor | The IOP Lens
In this episode of The IOP Lens, Dr Sane Ngidi is joined by Professor Nicola Taylor, incoming President of the Society for Industrial and Organisational Psychology of South Africa, for a reflective and forward-looking conversation on the future of the profession.
The discussion explores her journey with SIOPSA, her vision for the presidency, and the priorities that will shape the next chapter of industrial and organisational psychology in South Africa. Together, they reflect on leadership, stewardship, and the role of the profession in a changing world of work.
This episode offers a meaningful perspective on continuity, growth, and the future direction of IOP.
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Welcome to the IOP Lens, the podcast where we discuss the stories behind industrial and organizational psychology. This is about real stories, real people, and the community that has built our profession. I'm Dr. Saneangidi, and welcome to the IOP Lens. In today's episode, I'm really excited. We are joined by Professor Nicola Taylor. You will understand why, why I'm so excited to be joined by her. Let me read you a little bit about her to get us started. So, Prof. Nicola Taylor is an associate professor in industrial psychology and people management at the University of Johannesburg, a special place in my heart, and a registered psychometrist with over 15 years of leadership experience. She specializes in cross-cultural psychological assessment, test development, and reducing bias in the South African context. She's an active contributor to the profession through her work with Psyopsa, and we will dig deeper into that and other national and international bodies. And so without further ado, welcome, Prof.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Sonet.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much for joining us. I'm really excited about today's episode because you are the president-elect for Psyopsa. So, incoming president from 1 August, I hand over the reins to you and you lead the society. How are you feeling about it?
SPEAKER_01I don't think I'm as excited about it as you.
SPEAKER_00I'm passionate about leadership development and succession planning, Nicola.
SPEAKER_01No, I'm very excited. Um, it's uh it feels like it's been a long time coming, but it's actually been very quick. So uh so yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I think uh being able to take over the reins from you. Uh, you've set such a lovely platform. So really just looking forward to be able to carry that on.
SPEAKER_00Amazing. Uh Nicola, you've got like such a rich history in the society, right? And so um, as we speak about today's episode around leadership, the future of the profession itself, it would be good to go back to the beginning, your very, very beginning. So let's go to your very, very beginning. How did your story start to becoming an IOP?
SPEAKER_01Um, it's not a conventional story, it's a bit of a long and winding one. But um I used to keep school for cricket at school.
SPEAKER_00Uh I did not, I did not think that was the direction the story was going in.
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_01So uh so I used to keep school for cricket at school, and I was very interested in becoming a physiotherapist. So uh I actually studied uh BSC with psychology as an extra subject because I was interested in that sort of space. Um and um as I went through my first year, um, I'd also gone for some assessments to determine, you know, is this really the thing for me? And the feedback that I got was perhaps that being a physio would be too sort of hands-on, and I needed to maybe work in a bit more of a research space or a theoretical space. So I continued with my studies, did very well both in physiology and psychology, and I had the opportunity to do my honors in either one of them. And I chose psychology particularly because it studies the body and the mind, the interaction between the body and the mind, where physiology was just the body. And uh doing my honors then in uh psychology is where you get interested, uh sort of introduced to psychometric assessments. And that's really where I got into the the field of IOP. So my supervisor was or my lecturer in testing and assessment was prof Dion De Brain. Um and we did a project where we had to develop some personality items for our uh our research project. And when I completed my year, I wasn't accepted into clinical. Um and it's the only thing I applied for because I wanted to do research in clinical, like scan people's brains, schizophrenia. Um and I wasn't accepted to that. Uh so I went to go and speak to him about potentially becoming a psychometrist. So he said, Well, you could do that, but you could also do your master's by dissertation. And here are a couple of topics. So I looked at the topics and I said, you know what, I wasn't really interested in that. I was really interested in developing a personality assessment for the South African context. And his eyes lit up, and he's like, I've been wanting to do this for years. And um, and that's where that's where I started, and that was my master's was developing uh the basic traits inventory, which is the personality test. So yeah, that's my passion for psychometrics came from.
SPEAKER_00That's not a traditional story, and we're gonna go deeper into the assessment piece and and that as your career evolved. What I thought was interesting, which is a common piece in other people's stories, is that although people end up in IO psychology, they often know more about clinical. What do you think that's about?
SPEAKER_01Well, look, the basis of IOP is psychology. Yeah. It has to be the understanding of people. And um, while let's say clinical psychology, you you might think it's only um in the realm of hospitals and so on. Where do people show up? Where do people spend most of their time within the organization? Um, so understanding where you're working with where people are not functioning at their best. I think it's it's important to have a good understanding of where um where where psychology can play a really important role in um supporting people in the workplace when they're not functioning well. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and I think to that, it's people see the need for psychology in their everyday lives or they see it like on TV, like I saw that psychologist or somebody on a couch, but they often don't see it in the workplace. So people often don't think the workplace context is an option from a psychological perspective.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Um so you've gone into the IOP field. What happens in your career? Where do you start and how does your career build?
SPEAKER_01Um, right. So I uh started in the journey for my master's in um research masters. Uh I did my undergrad at Stellenbosch University and my honors at Stellenbosch. And um Dion told me that he had taken a position at Rao and had to move. So uh my choices were to drop the master's, study something different under somebody else, or move to Joe Burg. So I said, okay, cool, I'm coming with, and moved up to Joe Burg, and I worked as Dion's research assistant at the Institute for Child and Adult Guidance and also for a short while working in the um in the university looking at student throughput and and things like that, to student jobs, right? While I was doing my masters. When I completed my masters, we'd obviously we had a personality assessment that um it was work, it worked, it was valid, it was valid across people's, you know, all sorts of groups. Um and we were approached by um it was then Jobi von Roen and partners, so Jobie De Beer, uh to distribute the assessment. Um they wanted to distribute the assessment in in South Africa. Um and I'd finished my master's, then uh Dion suggested perhaps that I look at going into academia. And I still didn't want to do that. I wanted to work in the yeah, I wanted to work uh outside of the university for a while, get some experience. And the opportunity came up to start the research department at JVR, um, which is what I did. Uh I first took a six-month sojourn to the Netherlands, where I got to uh uh ride around on a bicycle a lot, and um I I got to work with Prof. Bulla Dirat, who's very well known in the personality psychology field. So very privileged to have that experience as a sort of a five-year, five month, five year, I wish a five-month uh research exchange program, and then came back and started the the research department at JVR. And that was over 20 years ago. Um yeah, so so in that space, got to do a lot of assessment validation, got to uh get a lot of experience in training uh people to use psychometric assessments, in uh developing new tests as well, and also uh moving assessments from the paper and pencil genre to online. So lots of sort of different experiences, but all centered around assessment and what it can do for people. But most of the assessments are based in the organizational space. So I got to do really cool research projects with large organizations, also understanding um the power that the assessments have in helping organizations make the right decisions and putting people in the right place.
SPEAKER_00You just gave me post-traumatic flashbacks when you spoke about psychometric assessments in the paper and pencil genre. And I just went all the way back to my internship and working in the multi-choice call center environment and administering psychometric assessments on a monthly basis and weekly administering, capturing, writing, and writing reports. Look how far we have come as a profession. Oh my goodness. Um, I have a whole story about bicycles and Amsterdam, but this is not the platform for it, and there's a cultural assimilation story there. Um but also, I mean, just that story. When we do our research, right, like if I take myself back to the research process, when you do your honors research, you're almost like a baby in the research field and you're just like, I have to do this research thing for my degree. Then you get to your master's and the research gets a little bit more serious. And you don't know how serious it's gonna be. Because I remember when I did my uh master's, it was like, do a piece of research that could turn into a PhD that could change the world. And I was like, I'm just trying to just get my master's degree, and but I love that energy. But what I love about your story is that that became real, right? Like, because often the story with master's students is develop a changing piece of work or or develop an instrument that you can then in your PhD turn in, and you actually did that. So I think that's like an incredible story.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there were so many people who said, Don't do that. Are you crazy? Developing a test for your master's is like it's too much work for what a master's should be.
SPEAKER_00Because everybody says you started in your master's so that you finish it in your PhD.
SPEAKER_01I know I they were like, that's PhD level. You shouldn't do that. You should just do like a I don't know like, do you know who you're talking to? I am I'm not that person. I am the person who goes, I'm going to do the extra. I want to do more. Um, why not? If I can, then I will.
SPEAKER_00And now you have an instrument that is so cool.
SPEAKER_01I have more than one.
SPEAKER_00Tell me more about that. You have to you have to say more about that.
SPEAKER_01Uh no, the other one that uh Dion and I developed uh together, besides the ones that I've developed obviously with um uh at JVR, yeah, but uh is the sources of work stress inventory. And we actually developed that at RAW at the time, now UJ, yeah, when uh when the university was merging. And there was a lot of um, obviously, all of the all of the things that we would study and and work with organizations about with organizational change, but there was really a lot of stress in the system with regards to not knowing what is your job, where do you belong, what do you have to do. So uh the university was actually asking for can we have a survey to gauge levels of stress in the organization? And uh and we built that for for that particular purpose. Um, and then uh it's been made available uh commercially as well, so so organizations can use that uh to understand what is it that is creating stress in the organization. So it's looking at the actual source of stress. Is it role ambiguity? Is it tools and equipment that you have to work with? Is it relationships with your supervisors, workload? What is it that's causing stress in the system? And I think people find that quite valuable. Even even getting personal feedback or I've even had feedback from people saying while they were filling it out, they realized what the problem was, that they could actually actively go and address it themselves. But yeah, I I love developing tests, it's fun.
SPEAKER_00I I can see that. If somebody is listening to you now who is a passionate IOP, wherever they are in their journey, who's like thinking, oh, this sounds interesting, what piece of advice do you have for them?
SPEAKER_01Do it. Really? Um look, in uh developing assessment, it's it's not difficult to write items. Even, I mean, AI can do that for you these days. If you've got a good definition, um writing the item is one thing. What's complicated is understanding how that relates to what it is that you're trying to measure. Uh it's complicated if you have to consider that perhaps people from different cultures behave in different ways and that your item may not be reflecting the same thing for different people. So the it's important for you to do the research to understand whether or not the thing that you've developed is actually measuring what it is that you say you're measuring. So if you're going to do it, by all means do it, but do it properly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because if you're going to be developing an assessment, it's to be making decisions about people's lives, right? This is what this is why it's so important for psychologists to be registered, is because the things that we do that have real impact on people's lives. Uh, the decisions that we inform through our practices. Um are you gonna get a job or not? Are you fit for the role? Do you get a promotion? Um, do you need special schooling? You know, in in not in the IOP case. But I mean, these are the kinds of decisions that we use assessments for. So you better make sure that it does what it says it does if if you're going to be using it.
SPEAKER_00I think that talks very much to impact, right? And it's really around this is what excites me about our profession. It's the breadth of what you can can do, but it's also the real impact um that you have. Um you've come full circle, full circle, ma'am. From Rao could feel could feel like it's a circus, but no. From doing your research at Rao to now working at UJ. So how does that feel?
SPEAKER_01Uh great, actually. Yeah, so masters at RAW, PhD at UJ, and then uh working in the field for uh you know nearly 20 years. And I just felt like I needed to come back and have that a different kind of impact. Um, and and that's the impact that you get through teaching. I want to attract um people into the field of psychometrics. It needs rejuvenation, it needs young blood. Um, and uh yeah, I'm obviously you can tell I'm very passionate about the subject, but uh it's to take that bring uh or excite people about the field so that they can bring us new stuff, be excited about what are the new developments, don't be afraid that just because it's different and it's not the way we've always done it, that it's the wrong thing. Uh experiment, try, let's um create something new. And and what I'm really interested in is how can we bring in South African and African ways of doing into the way in which we assess or to the models or the theories or uh anything to do with how we do assessment, because at the moment it's still very Western. And um, we should be able to make something new and interesting with the the capital, I suppose, that we have here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um I I love UJ. I studied at Vitz, but I did my PhD at UJ, so it's got a special place in my heart. Tell me about your PhD. What was that about?
SPEAKER_01So my PhD is a long title. Uh, it's uh construct item and response bias across cultures in personality assessment.
SPEAKER_00Why am I not surprised?
SPEAKER_01Uh you shouldn't be. Uh it's uh and it was the first assessment to use the ROSH analysis as a methodology, or the first study to do that in South Africa. So it was um also testing a new statistical model. So uh I got to use my baby, which is the BTI, in my, you know, because it was being used to collect data, I got to use that data to to inform my my PhD. So so yeah, so my I really am a nerd. Really, that's just the long and short.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I wouldn't say nerd, I would definitely say working with you, I I get the numerical aptitude, I get the analytical thinking, I get the curiosity, and that's kind of like a merging of all of those those things.
SPEAKER_01Exactly that.
SPEAKER_00Um, earlier on in my career, when I first started working, when I first got to corporate, um, because in the IOP career, you like you've got to do your honors, your masters before you become an IOP, you enter the world of work, you've got all these qualifications, and you're like, I'm special, I'm an IOP. And then you get to the world of work and everybody's like, you've got no experience. And then the one thing that people always used to say to me is you're very academic, right? And what I heard, I didn't hear that as a compliment. And I don't think they meant it as a compliment when they said that to me. But what I heard is you've studied a lot, but you've got no experience. Now, fast forward 20-something years later, I also know that being academic is a compliment. It's not the discs that I thought it was when I first joined, right? And so um a lot of IOPs grapple grapple with that. So, as you are in the academic space, how do you help bridge that gap?
SPEAKER_01I think the the one thing that that you have to do is you have to give students experience. Yeah. So whereas when we studied, it was mostly theoretical before you had to get to do your internship. So that's really where you got to do anything. I think these days, understanding that in training with masters, you have to bring in the practical so that your students also understand what is the world of work gonna look like. A lot of them have never worked before, or if they were, it was very sort of weekend or holiday jobs. So you want to be able to provide the opportunities for them to work on real life problems and not just theoretical case studies while they are studying. So I think that's where we're moving from an academic perspective, especially post-grad, that yes, the theory is important and it's underpins everything that you do. But I think everything that you do up to that point really prepares you for that. And when you're doing your masters, you you've got to have the theory aspect, but you have to have a very strong practical component that also readies them to be able to go hit the ground running almost in an internship. So I think uh education doesn't only have to be theoretical. Yeah. Uh, and I don't believe that it should. There's a lot of um work being done around like work-integrated education, uh, which allows for the it's not only the internships, but allows for you to have projects where you're working in collaboration with business to say, uh, businesses be brave, but allow students the opportunity to learn from the problems that you have. Let them have exposure to what's happening in the real world to understand. And to be better prepared for when they get there.
SPEAKER_00I having come out of the multi-choice internship and also seen just across the board, organizations who've run really great IOP internships, right? Just the caliber then of professionals that produces, both in the specialist space, but more importantly within organizations, I just the value of internships is it's priceless. That is priceless. It changes a profession, right? When you when you put that caliber of individuals within an HR function or within an organization to view people practices differently.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Just say the um so having that year as IP intern, even as a psychometrist as well, just understanding how how everything that you've been taught plays out in the workplace. But having an internship or having a site replacement where they are supported the whole way through, where they have the opportunity to learn, to ask questions, to really engage, they are not the interns that are just making coffee, right? Or thank goodness there's not so much paper to file anymore. But you know, not doing filing and making coffee. That's not what an intern should be. 100%. Uh they uh the best internships really just integrate the interns into uh and and let them run so that they learn and uh come out of that with the skills that they need to be fully fledged, independent uh IOPs.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think the movies have ruined us. It's the movies that have like these visions of interns running around holding cups of coffee and running after people. But anyway. I'm gonna bring you a little closer to home now. Psyopsa. How did your journey start with Psyopsa?
SPEAKER_01Oh, that was also a long time ago.
SPEAKER_00Everything's a long time ago now. That's where we are in our lives.
SPEAKER_01Thankfully, it doesn't look like it. But um, no, the I actually got involved in Psyopsa quite young. I think I was at 25, 26. And um I was cornered at a conference by someone who said, uh, Nicola, you're very vocal, because I can't help it. I'm an extrovert. Uh you should you should be part of the Joberg branch. So we're gonna have a committee meeting. Um, you should be part of this, and uh we'll see you on this date. So I was like, okay, that sounds like fun. Uh and I got involved through the Joe Joe Burg branch, where we used to arrange in-person events and uh once a quarter have a speaker or two come and talk to people for their CPD points. Uh went from there to being chair of the branch eventually, which sits you on Exco. And then um after that sort of period, uh got in absorbed into Exco in the CPD coordinator role. And that's I think where I really started, let's say, engaging with HBCSA. Uh at that stage, there were some really uh, I mean, we had to pay something in the region of 40,000 Rand just to have our C our our events accredited for CPD. And um, so there was really it was really uh not it felt wrong. Um so I think working with Fred as well, we actively engaged with the HBCSA and managed to get the board to use the HBCSA model of how of how they um cost these kinds of events. So thankfully, uh I think when you're in that space and you have that focus, you can you can really achieve something if you put your mind to it. Uh so setting that up, uh starting the AOSIS ECPD program uh was also one of the things that managed to do in that period of time. And then I'd been in the committee for a long time and I needed a break. So I think I stepped down in about 2012. Uh and I mean still involved a bit on the sidelines, but mostly focused on the the work that I needed to do at JVR. And then um involved I'm a committee holic, just in case you weren't in case you weren't aware of that. I'm involved in all the committees. Um and then Rouen called me. Uh Rouen called me and asked me one day, Nicola, in his presidency. Um maybe let me let me before he did that. Um in Natasha's presidency, uh, they decided to award me with uh honorary membership for my contribution to the field of industrial psychology, which really meant a lot to me not as an I you know, as a not an IOP, right? As a psychometrist to be able to be recognized for that contribution to the field's really something special. So um, so that uh uh made me one of the elders, as as we are called in the society.
SPEAKER_00I will be finding another name. Just give me a few more months, continue.
SPEAKER_01Um, and uh and then sort of slowly also got involved more on the sidelines with the conference uh um reviewing abstracts and and things like that. So Rouen then called me in his presidency and said uh there was a vacancy in the CPD portfolio. It's quite urgent because now we're in the position where SAOPSA can be accredited uh people for CPD activities. And do I know of anyone who would fit that role? I thought about it for a while, and at that point I needed some uh psychology kind of uh interaction in in my work, and I was like, you know what, I'll do it.
SPEAKER_00Had you dropped another committee or were you just adding?
SPEAKER_01I was I was doing mostly IT work in my organization. I needed some psychology stuff, so I said I'll do it. And um yeah, I really enjoyed I enjoyed um putting the well yeah, structuring that process because I think it had degenerated a little bit, but but getting it back up and running again. Um and then it was like not even six months later or it might have been might have felt like that. It was about eight months later that um we sat with a situation where we had a vacancy for treasurer. And um then I was actually asked if I would step in uh as treasurer because I have the institutional history, I know how these things work, I'm quite familiar with the constitution. So uh so yeah, so I've taken that on. And um, I figured, well, might as well run for president then if you're if you're in that space.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think Psyopsa has a way of building a special place in your heart. Um and specifically, I can resonate with when you speak about this the being within your role and feeling a need for an IOP space. Because that that's what I felt like. I could I could live my whole life in my job, in my corporate career, not worried about the whole IOP space. But I knew once a year I'd go to the Psyopsa conference, I'd get an injection. Oh my people, yeah, I would see all the IOPs in the field, I would see all these people I admired, I'd get an injection of IO psychology and like the impact that we can have in changing organizations, and then I'd remember, hey, I'm an IOP. And then I'd go back into the world.
SPEAKER_01And it's inspiring. Yeah. It's in to be inspired, I think, as well. But look, part of it I think is um, I think because we care, right? We're in a volunteer organization. If you're in a position of leadership in this organization, it's because you really care about the profession. So everyone that we have in our exco is there because we want IOP to be recognized. We want it to be special and we want a place exactly where, you know, as you say, where people feel there's a home, right? Um, and it's your intellectual or your professional home. Uh so we all we're all there just we because we care a lot uh about making sure that it's done right, that it's um that it is sustainable and that it can continue.
SPEAKER_00Um in your journey, how have you seen the society evolve from when you started to where we are now?
SPEAKER_01Sure. Um well I mean it's grown. It's grown. It I mean Psyops has been through a journey. When I first was involved, it was still disentangling itself from CISA. So it used to be a division of CISA. Um, and that that was quite a messy divorce, but but hey, full of drama, uh very exciting. Uh and it was quite a small group of people relative to what we are now. So the the Iop, the industry has definitely grown. The society as well has I think has gone through all of those uh you know organizational growth periods where you've had um uh spurts and uh changes in direction and we sit at the the very interesting position where I think when I was on the exco there were maybe 10 or 12 people in the exco committee. I I want to maybe remember something along those lines. It might have been a bit bigger, but we're sitting now like close to 30 people and um that shows how much of IOP we're actually representing because a lot of that representation is through the different interest groups. I think there were like two or three interest groups when I was there, and they are now six, seven, and uh and it's great that we're in a position to be able to offer content and offer opportunities for people to learn in all of these different spaces in IOP. So um the I'll also say that we've certainly transformed as an organization uh not completely, but definitely in terms of representation of um of the members. So um so definitely becoming a little bit more representative of the South African population. Uh where uh and it's been deliberate, and that's been that's what's special is that as an organization you realize if we want to make change, you have to deliberately work towards that. So that is, I think that's something that's been quite special to see.
SPEAKER_00I think the Psyopsa transformation story is an important one, right? Because I think when I finished studying, I would never have thought that I could be president of Psyopsa. And here I am today. Um, and that's very much seeing a transformation at a race level, at a gender level, but even more importantly, the fact that I can be an HR generalist in practice. And and I would never have thought that, right? I would have thought that was somebody leading an assessment house. So I think again, talking to how we're transforming as a profession, but also creating more spaces of inclusion within our society.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, who would have thought that's a psychometrist who would be the pr uh the president of the Society for Industrial Organizational Psychology? And um, and that is what isn't that's what inclusion is about, right? That's the whole point of inclusion, is that anyone who's a member of the society should feel that they could be a part of it, that they can contribute meaningfully, that they belong, and that they could be president if they had something, you know, really important to to say or do that there really there would be space for that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. If somebody's listening and they're like, what is she talking about about interest groups? I love the variety of the interest groups. So tell us a little bit more about that.
SPEAKER_01Uh right, so they will have to forgive me if I forget any because there are so many. But yeah, so our interests, our interest groups really are spaces for people to get together who have similar interests. So we have the um, let's say, interest group for uh psycholegal work, and that would that would focus on um work that's obviously been done in the psycholegal space. Uh, we have uh mental health at work, which is our our baby interest group. It's uh two years old and really flourishing and doing well, especially because there's so much focus on mental health in the workplace. Um we have um Pi, which is people assessment and industry, mostly represent a lot of our psychometrists find a home there, but it's not only for that. That really um I think they were uh mostly an organizational um uh how how do I say the membership of Pi was mostly organizations historically. Uh, but uh but bringing that into SAPSA as as part of an interest group really helped bring the depth on the assessment space. We have um uh organizational neuropsychology, we have um the psychodynamic interest group. Um sorry, Tamson that I got the name wrong. It's uh um we also have um who am I missing?
SPEAKER_00Um I'm like pick me, pick me, I want to answer this question.
SPEAKER_01It's BIOP, obviously. Um and then we have our diversity and inclusion uh interest groups. They're a IGCCP. IGCCP, which is and and that was one of our first breakdown the acronym first. Yes, that was one of our first ones. It's the um coaching and consulting psychology interest group. Uh they were actually one of our first, so I should I should have remembered them first. Yeah. Uh but uh they have a really active membership and they do a lot of um mentorship uh work with students and uh young psychologists um and uh Iggy Whip, which is our interest group for emerging work psychologists, and it um really is focused on uh supporting and providing spaces for our young psychologists to uh develop and grow in the in the IOP space.
SPEAKER_00I think what's interesting about or what's nice actually about the interest groups is that um they evolve as our profession evolves, right? So new interest groups evolve or get built as fields of psychology are formed. There goes my English. Um and also as an IOP, it opens up a lens, or within the IOP field, it opens up a lens to a part of psychology you might not have ever thought of. Like for me, the psycholegal people, initially, I was like, what are they doing in that corner? Then the more and more I heard, I was like, why don't I do more psycholegal work? So there's a learning opportunity there as well.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Um, absolutely. And and some of the they come and go. So we have had interest groups, I think, in consumer psychology, we had interest groups in cross-cultural psychology as well at some point. And it also depends on who's driving it. That that uh uh making sure that the group remains active. Uh uh, it's not as fady, I want to say, as whatever passing interest comes in and out. But uh but really where you have a group of people very committed to that field and want to see uh and strengthen it and allow people exactly as you said to learn about the different aspects of industrial psychology, those interest groups are there to support that. And and then I think uh BioB is a very interesting at what interesting and special case. So I'm sure you've mentioned it, but we'll do the acronym thing anyway, so is black IOPs. And and what I love about that is that it's while it's a safe space for black IOPs to talk about issues that are relevant to them, it's not exclusive either. So if you as a non-black IOP uh want to join and understand what those issues are and what how you can be involved in helping to break down any kind of organizational structures, you're welcome to do that. I don't think everyone necessarily knows that, but yeah, but but that is the the point of having a society that is inclusive is is that people we we want to represent interests of our members. So if our members felt that we don't have a specific area where their interests are represented, the challenge is bring it. Come do it. Bring it. That's how I ended up in this seat. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00But but I also like what you're indexing on there because it also shows that although we can we can build interest groups which are around like the knowledge, the profession, we can also build for ourselves, right? Because BIOP is about creating that space for members. So I love that lens. Um you touched on something also a little bit earlier, which was important, which is we're all volunteers, right? And if you go onto the SyOpsa website and you read it, it says, we're a member-based organization, so we're it's there there isn't there isn't somebody else in the background. And so it's an open invitation for Psyopsa members who want to play a role to say that this is your space, this is your opportunity to lead, um, to influence what our profession looks like, to influence industry. And so by being a member, you have the right, the opportunity, the invitation to step in and lead.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Uh no one's gonna do it for you. You have, you know, if you are passionate about it, if you are passionate about an area of IOP, or if you're just passionate even about the profession, or you s see something in the society that you feel isn't right, you can be that uh that force of change. You can be the tornado, the whirlwind. You can bring it. Uh it doesn't necessarily have to be somebody else. Uh that's that's what this is our society. Um we make it, you know, the members decide what what happens. So so yeah, come.
SPEAKER_00We're gonna have a membership campaign with t-shirts that say, bring it. I love it. So your presidency one August, you actually technically one August, but you know the technicalities of this handover process. So at the end of the conference, what are you looking forward to in your presidency?
SPEAKER_01It's such a difficult question because I don't know what I'm what I'm gonna look forward to. I I don't know, you know, I I'm looking forward to be able to continue the really good work that we've been doing so far. I'm not coming to revolutionize things or anything. It's it's to be able to really just take help take Psyopset to the next level. And we've created really good groundwork over the last couple of years, and you have to be realistic, right? As a president, you've got one year where you are you're the figurehead, right? But we have a three-year presidency, so you're not running away. I'll be here. Luckily for me, I have your support. Um, and uh, and that's the the your presidency as a three-year term means that you have impact across that whole period. It's not just in your year as president. So that's why I say it's difficult for me to say what I'm looking forward to. Um, but I um yeah, I'm excited to be able to step into that space, step into the role, and to to carry the society for the year period that I have into 2027.
SPEAKER_00I think you said something so Beautiful there in that when we step into presidency, we're carrying on the legacy and the work of presidents past. And you step in and you do your part, then you pass on the baton and it carries on. Because a lot of what happens in your presidency, one year is not enough to do that work, but you are playing your role in the success of the society for that year. Um, and even when we see the work that really fundamentally transforms the society, it takes multiple years to shift our industry.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. So, like a couple of big things coming in, coming in uh have been set in motion a long time ago. So I can't take credit for this thing happening in my presidency because the wheels were set in motion a long time before, and we worked hard up until that point to get it there. So, and it's and it's a we, not a me. Um, it my my view on leadership really is uh I I I always think about this essay that Tolstoy wrote at the end of War and Peace, which was about as long as War and Peace itself, actually. I was like, why am I reading this? And I'm glad I read it. Because it's about it's not quite about leadership, but it's about power. And power is what he says, and I'm gonna butcher this terribly, but it is very much it's the will of the people conferred on an on a single person. And that to me is what leadership is, is it's not you standing there making the decisions, you represent, and especially in a membership organization like Psyopsa, people voted for me for a particular reason. They voted for me because of what I believe in, what I represent, and what I've said is important to me in terms of the values. So my role as a leader then is to execute the will of the members or the people who put me there and to make sure that that is carried forward, that um the society is sustainable, that we are doing the things that the members want us to do and that make a difference. Um so so lots of projects that we've started, and um soin before that, Sharon, uh all the way back down the line. You're gonna have to say every president now. Every president now. I'm gonna forget someone. But uh really amazing work that people have done over the years building up to the awesome things that we're gonna be doing in the future. And I'm not gonna deliver a finished product because society's not finished, it's always going to be growing. So I think it's holding the space, making sure that we remain sustainable, that we uh have good governance in the way in which we do our business, that we um create uh space for people to flourish. Uh and that's uh that could be across the board.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I think um the word that comes to my mind is to serve, right? When we're in the position of presidency we're serving. And it's to ensure that whether it's me, whether it's you, whoever comes next, that the members are getting that promise of what we've built as a society through the service of the president.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Yeah, because they don't have to be members 100%. They can just go.
SPEAKER_00But please be members. We want you as members.
SPEAKER_01Yes, but we have to make sure that it's valuable, right? So, so we appreciate that people put their um faith and their money into the society, but uh being a member mean, you know, has to mean something, and it has to uh we have to make sure that the organization carries that meaning for the members. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00What are one or two of the things that you um see that I was like is coming to light now that you're excited about?
SPEAKER_01Uh two quite big things, actually. So the um the first is, and this discussion has been going on for a very long time, and that is the foundation. Uh so really sort of watershed moment uh towards the end of last year, the special AGM, where we had uh we got into our constitution the um permission, I suppose, to create a foundation wholly owned by Saapsa as an 18A. And I think that really provides a wonderful vehicle for us to get funding to be able to do the things that we say we want to do in our constitution. And that is largely supporting young and upcoming industrial organizational psychologists, um, bringing and attracting them to the field and being able to build a society that has impact and um showcase, I suppose, the the wonderful things that that IOP does. That's the one thing. The second is linked to that, and that is our internship program. It's been my little page budget. Um, but so I don't know how many people actually know to what extent um SciOps has been involved in helping young or master students after they finish their masters uh need to complete an internship and really, really struggle for various reasons to find placements. So we've had an internship management program where we've offered the service of helping place these interns in organizations and then providing additional training. And we've had wonderful funders like uh South African Education Trust and Um uh uh Ur Dr. Erin Ferndale's trust who've been champions in supporting us in doing this. But uh it's not enough. We're not reaching enough. There have been multiple issues about you know why it's difficult for people to find placements. So we've uh made a decision that we would like to host our own internship to scale up that management program, um, partnering with organizations, partnering with universities to really be able to make a proper difference and to to get numbers. Uh, you know, we don't want any master's students because they are the struggle to get just to that point is hard enough. They shouldn't have to struggle to find an internship. So um we're sitting with like there were like 35 on the last time it checked, still from last year with no internships. So we really need to make sure that we can make a difference there. And um, and that's what we are busy uh planning and also working with the HPCSA to try and get over the line. So yeah, that's what I'm excited about for next year. Not for next year, it's yeah, it's this year.
SPEAKER_00But for me, those are both great examples of what you spoke about earlier on, right? Like this is presidents and years in the making to get us to where we are, but also it's work that fundamentally changes the impact of psyopsar. And so that's really great as well to be able to tangibly see us make a difference, change our industry. Um, yeah. Exciting, exciting, exciting. Um so how are you feeling? How's the countdown?
SPEAKER_01Uh a little bit nervous, to be honest. Um, because I feel like I feel like I need to think about it more. But I don't know what to think, right? So, because I think you can plan to an extent. Yeah. Uh big, you know, knowing knowing what what is coming, but once you you only really realize the extent of it once you're in it. Yeah. So um I think I'm prepared for that. I think I'm ready for that. I do that with the knowledge safely that I have your support and and that um the incoming uh president-elect um also forms part of the presidency team. So it's not not that I'm gonna be on my own. Um, we also have a whole exco and a wonderful, wonderful office team that supports us. Have to plug them uh because they they really are the heart of the organization and they just they care for the members like nobody's business. So it's just there really is a lot of beautiful stuff happening there. So excited to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you everyone. You spoke about leadership and 100% agree with you. The success of the president is dependent on one, the incredible office team, and yes, yes, yes, but also um the support of the exco um who play a critical role as volunteers. Um, and then I can honestly say from my seat uh and the in my year, um the past president and also the president-elect play a critical role. So I've I mean I've personally experienced that in our relationship. So I will be there for you as the past president. A final thought on this moment of transition. What kind of a society do you hope that we continue to build for the next generation?
SPEAKER_01Uh society as in a psyopsis society or as a psyopsis society. Good question. Uh as a psyopsis society, it needs to, I think it needs to be one that is meaningful, right? It needs to be something that uh people want to care about and who want to be involved, who want to be a part of. Uh if we are really delivering value to our members, it means that we're making a difference in our profession. It means that we are um we are increasing the visibility of our profession and potentially uh having impact on things like policy, uh being consulted, whether it's in the media, whether it's by government, whether it's by uh organizations, why are we not consult the first to be consulted on um on big issues where we represent uh industrial organizational psychology or people matters in organizations? So uh so I think uh working towards contributing to the value that we have as a society in the development of the profession.
SPEAKER_00I always ask this question to each guest. Um what's a closing quote thought that you would like to leave listeners with?
SPEAKER_01A closing thought that I would like to leave listeners with. I think I think I would it's not a quote as such, hold that out of the air. But I think you whatever it is that you tell yourself is what you're going to believe. So people do need to um how do I want to put this? I want to say you you can have influence, you can make a difference, you um the only way in which you're going to create change is by doing it yourself. And um you shouldn't be sitting waiting for others to do it. So you need to start believing that if change is gonna happen, you are the one that is going to start that change.
SPEAKER_00I love that. And not to be afraid to use that, to step into it. Thank you, Nicola. Thank you for your openness. Um thank you for so generously sharing your story. I mean, I know you are engaged with you on a daily basis. Um, and I've left today with understanding new parts of you and also thinking about why I haven't created an assessment instrument. But that's a story for another day. Um I'm really excited about this next phase of your leadership. I think part of what really excites me is how well you know the society, the journey that you've been in, and the different perspective which you bring. Um, and leadership in Psyopsa is not just about direction, it's about the stewardship, it's about really caring about the community. And as you spoke so passionately, it's about the next generation of IOPs. And are we creating um an inclusive space where people can thrive and where we can generate and create more IOPs to have greater impact in organizations and society and transform South Africa? So yeah, I'm really excited. Thank you for joining us today.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00If you are interested in finding out more about Psyopsa, please um do follow us on our social media platforms. If you enjoyed this episode of the IOP lens, please like, subscribe, share, follow. Look forward to seeing you in the next episode. Bye.