The IPA Making Sense Podcast: Caroline Manning

Initiative's Caroline Manning joins the IPA Making Sense podcast to explore how to find coherence in a fragmented media world, how planners can balance data, culture, and creativity, and how emerging tools like AI can be used to supercharge, rather than replace, human thinking.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of the IPA Making Sense podcast, where we'll be making sense of the complicated things in advertising and media today, and hopefully just making them a little bit more fun. I'm your host, Simon Frazier.

SPEAKER_04 0:23

And I'm Molly Bruce, your co-host.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

And today we have an incredible guest joining us, Caroline Manning. So Caroline Manning is Chief Design Officer at Initiative and has built an impressive career in media strategy. She consistently pushes the industry to think both more clearly and also more creatively about what planning really means in an increasingly complex media landscape. Now, over the last year alone, Caroline has written a brilliant series of articles in The Media Leader, which explore the evolving role of the planner, how to navigate fragmentation, and also how to prepare for the future. She was named one of campaign's top ten media planners of 2025 and also spoke at the future media of London, the future of video. She, of course, delivered the uh keynote at the IPA Media Planning and Strategy Summit last year. And also, shameless plug here, contributed to the seventh edition of the Making Sense report. Her strategic thinking has fed into things like the Booper 2024 Healthies campaign, which went on to win a gold at the Campaign Media Week Awards in 2025 and a silver lion as well. And she's also recently had successful pitch wins for NatWest, Bayer, and a personal favourite of mine, HelloFresh. So quite a year, and no wonder they call you Planning Manning. So in this episode, we are going to explore how to find coherence in a fragmented media world, how planners can balance data, culture, and creativity, and also how emerging tools like AI can be used to supercharge rather than replace human thinking. So, Caroline, a big welcome to the IPA Making Sense podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

Thank you for having me. I'm really excited.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Fantastic. So what we're going to do, we're going to start with uh talking a little bit about your personal journey. Because one of the things that's always I always found so engaging about say both the say the keynote speech that you delivered and the content that you've uh you know, the great articles you've written is that element of like personality. It's real, kind of really engaging and kind of helps you to contextualize things and think, oh, actually, I understand that much more clearly now. So and one of the things that's fascinating, obviously, the role of chief design officer. So how did that that title come to be and and how does it kind of uh shape the way in which you approach um strategy and creativity?

SPEAKER_02 2:33

So most people in my role are called media planners. Um and that's really a reflection of what the job used to be, but the job has evolved, and design as a word is reflective of that. So what it means is that you know, uh a consumer or an audience doesn't just experience the world in a series of paid media apps. That that's not their only engagement with a brand. Instead, it's about that full experience of a brand, including owned, earned, shared, and paid, but also all the other interactions someone might have with or about a brand. And so it's about designing experiences. And that is where that design word comes from. It's about the blending of culture and media and data, creativity, technology, and thinking really holistically around how we can design these experiences for consumers that ultimately get brands noticed or get help us to meet a brand's objectives.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Ah, that sounds fantastic. And I I love the idea of that design thing, because often when we're thinking about say media fragmentation, we're thinking in isolation. We think, oh, it's harder to use this media or it's harder to use that media. But as you said, it's that holistic collective approach.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

Absolutely is.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

And I guess that leans into how, you know, optimizing for frequency and making sure that kind of there's not brand fatigue. If you you know, if you if you know what's going on in the complete ecosystem of that brand and how it's being interacted with you, you can avoid kind of over-communicating to an audience, um, which is really, really fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

Absolutely. I think calling it design rather than planning kind of gives you permission to sit in the mess for a bit. Yeah. And it means that you don't have to immediately come up with the answer. It means that my team don't have feel the urge to receive a brief and know what the answer's gonna be five minutes later. It actually gives you that permission to sit in that messy middle bit and look at everything holistically as you say, and then come to the answer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

And I guess also, I mean, we we talk like planning and we think of planning and strategy as very of like sciences, but actually it's is it's art, I think, as much as it, you know, there's there's it's the artistic element of, you know, the and that's what I think really sets our industry apart is great thinkers. You know, it's it's and Rory Sutherland said, you know, what we do is of interest to say about 7,000 people worldwide, but how we think is actually of interest to everyone. The skills that media planner strategists have are so applicable beyond just the field of advertising. Um, and it's yeah, it's really fascinating to think of it not in that kind of exact science, it's around that artistic way of understanding how things interact and interrelate.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

Absolutely. I think um so I I used this phrase with a colleague earlier this week, and they told me it was a really weird phrase to use, but I'm gonna repeat it, which is that paid media is essentially renting eyeballs. Yeah, you are renting a little bit of someone's sight or attention. Yeah. And what that means is that actually you've got to treat that with respect. You can't annoy them or irritate them. Instead, because you're renting that little snippet of their day, it's got to be something meaningful and valuable in it.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Yeah, and I and I think that that leans into something that um, because I saw it was a great panel that Molly and I were at at the Future Media where you were talking with Vicki Fox. And one of the things that Vicki Fox said, um, I can't remember it was on that panel somewhere else, but she said, you know, advertising should always be a good house guest. You know, it should always be you know, understanding the context of the media environment and you know, thinking about, you know, if advertising came into your house with muddy boots and trod mud in everywhere, you know, you'd be like, pfft, whatever. Exactly. You wouldn't want you wouldn't want it there at all. Oh, fantastic. So, I mean, moving on to the sort of the next question. One of the the key purposes of of you know, we started the with the Making Sense Um Commercial Media Landscape publication, we've branched that out into so the the Media Plan Strategy Summit, the Insight Summit, and also the now the podcast. Um we've created essentially the the is a new thing that's being announced called the Making Sense Unit. And one of the things with that is to try and simplify complex ideas and kind of find coherence in chaos. Now I know that's something you're really passionate about. Can you just give us a or you know, some of your experiences of particular times when you've seen like a lot of you know chaotic things or a lot of complexity? And and really and I think one of the things that really shines for me in talking to you is that ability to cut through that and to find a narrative or or a clear path through a lot of complexity. So, you know, what what are some key kind of times where you've where you've really feel that that that's been something that's worked for you or key skills that you think would be really useful for for planners or strategists?

SPEAKER_02 7:22

So I think in terms of things I've experienced around cutting through that complexity, I think you can think about complexity or fragmentation in a couple of ways. So you can think of it in terms of audiences, you know, we're we're seeing that fragmentation of audiences across channels at the moment. And um, I've been speaking a lot at the tail end of last year and this year to Bea around um, and they've come from a very traditional sufficiency in channel point of view on the world. And actually, that isn't something that works anymore. And actually, when you have limited budgets and you have lots of channels you want to activate in, and then you're trying to make sure that you're hitting this kind of myth of sufficiency within each channel, it becomes very, very complex, particularly when you factor in the fact it's a global brand and there's multiple markets. But actually, I've been talking to them about forgetting channel sufficiency and think about holistic sufficiency. What is the overall experience for a brand that you're creating with a consumer? And when you add all of those things together, is that sufficient? And I think that makes looking at ecosystem planning a lot simpler. The other thing I think about when I think about complexity is actually complexity in data. Because there are so many metrics out there that you can chase, and often they all point you in a different direction, and that becomes really complicated and really, really confusing. And I've had it before where I've worked on, you know, a big global advertiser, and every single market has followed a different data point. They've had a different point of view, they've had a different audience, they've had a different approach to comms. And actually, what that does is everyone's kind of doing their job brilliantly, but but there's no coherence between it. There's, and given it is one brand, there needs to be that consistency of approach market to market, even if you do have those kind of local nuances. So there, you know, my job really was about look taking a step back and going, what is the tension this brand's trying to solve in people's life? What is the human truth? What is the thing that whatever market you're in, from the Middle East to mainland Europe to North America to the UK, that everyone can get behind. And then thinking about so what are the metrics that matter to that truth and building the plans from there. And and I think to to your point, like making it simple actually is is is the way to bring that kind of coherence.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

The idea of the universal human truth, or what do we, you know, that you because I think so often is as as we've got more, you know, the more we the more data we have, the the you know, the the more we know, the more we know we don't know, if that makes sense. So then we're kind of less sure about stuff. But actually sometimes, and this is one of the things I love, you know, talk that that you've mentioned in other things, and we'll come into this later, but in talking about, you know, your experiences with your kids and their approaches to asking straightforward quause that complexity is you know, there's a quote that I love from Mrs. Doubtfire, which I've mentioned on previously, but it's it is um is when the the daughter asks Mrs. Doubtfire a like a really direct question. She's a five-year-old and she says and she said, Oh, that's a noble quality. Um I admire your honesty, it's a noble quality because it often disappears with age or or entering politics. You know, so that and that kind of um straightforward uh uh or more straightforward way of looking at things and thinking, well, what's the coherence here? We we get The more we as I said, you know, the the more we the more information we have, the less the harder that is to achieve. So I think that's yeah, such a vital a vital skill. And also a really inspiring way of thinking about navigating complexity.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

Yeah, I mean I personally think that's the job of a strategist or a planner is to make the complicated simple.

SPEAKER_03 11:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

And actually the the best ideas I've thought of might have been or or that I've even seen might have been really hard to get to and taken an awful lot of work. But actually when they're shared, you think, well, obviously we should do that.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

And it's that simplicity that I actually think is the best work.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Yeah, and I guess it takes a lot of confidence sometimes to or or not confidence, but it it can be quite a nerve-wracking thing to stand up and go, you know, go back to that simple, straightforward thing, or to be the person in the room who goes, I don't think that that we're approaching this in the right way, or you know, asking the question, or even even in some regards, just being the person to hold up your hand and go, I don't really know what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Oh my god, yeah. I mean, I say that so often. So often I'll be I'll be in a meeting and there'll be some acronym mentioned, and I'll just be like, I'm really sorry, guys, I don't know what that means. Yeah. Um, and more often than not, about five other people will go, Yeah, no, I don't. I'm not sure. Yeah, I'm glad you asked.

SPEAKER_03 12:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

But I just think somehow being a bit um upfront about it and kind of you know, taking the rule of no question as a stupid question, um, it it it helps with that simplicity.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Yeah, and really disarms the uh the nervous kind of element of being like, Oh, I don't want to be the person, you know, it everybody's just like, oh, we can all breathe and relax now. We're all on the same page and none of us know what this acronym means or something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:37

When Simon was saying about how you have sometimes talk about how like you've been inspired by your your son, particularly, to like see the media world in a different way. I think that's like the way you talk about that is such a good way of stripping things back to like what the simple and what really matters. I think especially your first media leader article was really focusing on that. What's is there any sort of like really surprising insight that you've learned from or that you've got from the things that he's that he's said to you? Yeah, well, I mean, I'll start off by saying kids are brutal, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:13

Your Mrs. Doubtfire reference, kids are brutal. Um, and I think, you know, becoming a mum, I've got a six-year-old and a three-year-old, both of whom are very direct and honest and forthcoming with their feedback, shall we say. Um, but actually, watching the pair of them make sense of the world actually really teaches me a lot. Because um, say, for instance, my older one, before he learned how to skip ads on YouTube, every time an ad kite came on, he would just scream, help, help, and I would have to run over and skip the ad for him. And um what I've realized is it's about meaning, it's about relevancy. He was probably seeing an ad for something that was completely irrelevant to the Pokemon video he was watching. And therefore, it had absolutely no meaning to him. It didn't matter. And even when I'm negotiating with them about why he needs to put on his socks in the morning or why they need to go to bed when it's bedtime, it is all about meaning. It's about, well, what is the implication if you don't, well, actually, your feet are going to get really cold or you're gonna be really grumpy tomorrow. And um, I and I I kind of take that back to advertising. You can't tell someone to do something, you can't persuade someone if there isn't meaning behind it. And okay, maybe you wouldn't use the kind of threat of you'll fill rubbish tomorrow that you would with your kids, but but it's that sort of thing. It's people need meaning that they can grasp. And, you know, it it therefore means that actually advertising it's not about proving how clever you are, it's actually about thinking about how can I connect with someone cognitively, emotionally, in a real way that's really relevant, I suppose. And it's it's kind of what I said earlier: like the best thoughts, the best ideas are those that feel simple. Um, and it really is about that relevance and that meaning. And my kids have also taught me an awful lot about taking on board feedback. I've become a much better receiver of feedback since um since having them. So they give me feedback on my outfit every day I'm going into the office.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

So yeah. Is that designed or not necessary?

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Or is it uh it's I would say it's become routine.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

It's routine.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

Um it's become routine. It's um marked from the bottom would be four thumbs down, the top would be four thumbs up.

SPEAKER_03 15:35

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

Uh, because they've got four thumbs between the pair of them.

SPEAKER_03 15:39

Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:39

Um, and um, I mean they're generally pretty generous, but if if it's particularly pink, that's definitely going to be thumbs down. Oh wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:48

For both of them, is that for both of them?

SPEAKER_02 15:50

For both of them. Yeah. The younger one tends to be quite easily led to the older one. Have you had to teach them to be better, a bit kinder at giving feedback, or do you give them free reign when they're I give them free reign with me because I think it's really important that, you know, their parents are a safe space for them and that they can see me receiving feedback well, and then, you know, if they do something wrong, hopefully that encourages them to receive that feedback well. Um, but I'm fortunate in that they're not quite so forthcoming with feedback for people outside of the immediate family.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Yeah. Because I guess that that's a a really good point. That the idea of being able or or or teaching from a young age how to receive f feedback and how to approach feedback. It's that because often you see it like award shows where you know you have to have the smiling losing face and being like and actually being able to it's it's quite a hard skill to like not you know represent kind of disappointment kind of in that way. Um and I guess in a in a in an industry where it is heavily pitch-led, you know, everything is driven by the kind of the pitch process. There are times when you put everything into something and actually it can be devastating, but the next thing you've got to start with, the next pitch or the next client or the next, you know, thing.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

Completely. I mean, I believe that to do well in this industry, you have to be a relentless, positive optimist. Because essentially you get up in the morning, you find out that an ad campaign's gone wrong, the client's really angry, you have to talk to them, you have to apologize, you have to fit find a solution for that. Then you find out that a pitch that you poured your heart and soul into, you didn't win, and you go home, you have a glass of wine, and then you get up the next day and you think, yeah, it's all gonna be better. I'm gonna it's all gonna be way better than yesterday. That was a blip. So you need to have that optimism, I think.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Now, one of the things that uh just sort of thinking about the the current media landscape and how you know if we think over the last sort of two to three years, things have got s quite well have I mean, I guess when it comes back to the universal truths idea, have they got more complex in terms of what what we're trying to do? We're trying to get a message across to people to in order to ch you know shift perceptions on brands or whatever, so the universal element is still the same, but actually the landscape has become more complex with the rise of things like AI and and also the perceptions of what AI can and you know can't do. Um, but one of the things I wanted to to ask you about is you know, you frequently talk about uh making media more human, and even as AI becomes a bigger part of planning, it's so easy to you know, for a lot of people, and particularly in like junior role, to get quite disheartened about the threat of AI and the rise of AI and things like that. Um and I love the analogy you made at the Future of Media London, um, which is about how AI can be like an Iron Man suit, and and the the you know, I I I've repeated that you know repeatedly in our in our office. Yeah, he has, I got out for that. I I just think it's a perfect analogy for the human at the centre of you know, you know, it enhancing human capability, but actually the most important fundamental is that is that central uh person. How do you think what are kind of key things that you would say about successfully navigating the new world and and being somebody who manages you know a lot of people in, you know, from junior people right up to quite to very senior people? You know, how do you manage and navigate that AI world and the and the rise of AI and and the complexities that come with that?

SPEAKER_02 19:15

So I think you just need to keep something at heart, which is that AI amplifies intent. It doesn't create it. Like the reason why the Iron Man analogy works is because Tony Stark still is in the suit. Yeah. Um, you know, it stops working once he stops being there. And I think AI technology, it just extends what we're capable of. So um the danger with AI and is is that we use it to automate our thinking, is that we use it to replace essentially our brains. But actually, if we use it to free us up, to crunch the data, to test ideas more intelligently, to move things faster and more efficiently, then actually it just becomes an enabler. It becomes something that makes us all better. It can be something that tests our judgment. But really, that judgment, that empathy, that creativity, that still needs to come from the human. And um, so the way I see it is, and I I tell my whole team like to see AI as a collaborator, to see AI as another member of the team, it's not a replacer, it's it's actually something that just makes you better. And I truly believe that if you don't jump on the bandwagon, if you go, oh, I'm scared of AI, I'm gonna resist using it, you will be left behind. So you have to embrace it, but it's about using it in the right way and using it responsibly and remembering what is the thing that you've got as a human that no AI agent can ever replace. And that that is you and your very humanness.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

Yeah. And I and I guess like the empathy and the creativity elements, particularly, because AI, you know, computers, computers are very good at interfacing with other computers, and AI is very good at interfacing with with other AI in a in a direct um, you know, this is required, this is what has, this is process and this is output. You know, but actually most people, unless they're slightly unusual, uh, don't really work in that very kind of like structured approach. It's about emotional response, it's about you know what what kind of makes you feel warm, what kind of makes connections, how we understand like the truth of you know cult different cultures and and the and the way in which uh uh you know interrelationships happen. And and I think you know, AI could create say an an ad which is based on you know, other ads that feature strongly in the emotional scale. But actually what you'll find is you'll get a hotch potch of things that w actually appeals to no one and it's just kind of very Derivative. It's just that you get nothing new.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

No, no, no. It's iterative, isn't it? So you don't get that new thinking. And to your point around, you know, people make decisions emotionally, even like at Initiative, we have a large portion of B2B clients, and you think that's very rational decision making. But no, people who run businesses are still humans. They still make decisions emotionally, irrationally. So actually, it doesn't matter what brand you're working on, it there still is that kind of emotional decision making at the core.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Yeah. And there's things that I guess AI or or rationality, because Rory were talking on the podcast with him about the you know that trade-off between explore and exploit and the idea of you know explorative ways of thinking or doing things, so what kind of particularly differentiates. Because, you know, one of the one of the examples that we were talking about on there, and something that we're gonna be looking into going forward is is the brand pneumatic and their product Henry, you know, the Henry, the Henry vacuum cleaner. And the logic, you know, if you said to someone like that, it was two guys at a trade show, one of them was the owner, and he they were bored and they were like, nobody's interested, everybody's got the same vacuum. Oh, we'll draw a face on it as a joke. And then off the back of that, people were gathered round and suddenly, you know, drawn to this vacuum cleaner that had a face on it, and then off the back of that launched the pneumatic company, and they sell millions of those. But it's all that emotional, um, that emotional. I was looking on there's a Facebook page of like Henry owners and and where they treat them like a member of the family. Like, and it's a product which actually embeds or cleaners will talk to their Henries when they're you know cleaning schools at night time, and so like in that emotional thing, it's something that I think a lot of there's very f there's very few kind of people uh products in that category that get that actually a lot more stuff is emotional, you know. Something that seems rational, like cleaning, is actually quite a lot more emotion, can be a lot more emotionally kind of triggered, um, which is quite a fascinating one.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Absolutely. I mean, I think so. My kids have stuck a pair of googly eyes on our robot vacuum cleaner and they've called it Frank. And I think I I think pneumatic need to bring out a robot vacuum cleaner with a face because we we've had to DIY it and it looks a bit hodgepodge, to be honest. So um, yeah, I I think that's the next thing they need to do.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Yeah, it's just everything like if you put a face on something, it just makes it like it just when you name it. Yeah, exactly. And it and it just it makes it whatever it can be, it can be fun and and exciting and uh yeah, it rather it takes a boring thing and makes it. You know, and I think that could that leans into kind of your what you said about being a you you've got to be an endless optimist. You've got to see a smiling face in whatever, you know, however angry the client may be on the phone, like actually just you know, seeing them as a person and uh and and kind of being positive. You know, nobody if you if you're if you're very, very positive in response to somebody that's that's you know, angry or is having a tough day or whatever, it it it will filter back and they will but they it gets to a point where they're like, oh actually I can't really be angry because like it's you know Yeah, it's it's the whole c killing people with kindness, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 25:07

I mean, I remember when I was a graduate and I was in this client meeting and the client was giving us a real bonneting. I can't remember what we'd done, we'd mess something up, and they were furious and they were really going on at us. And I felt a bit awkward and didn't really know what to do, probably didn't really understand most of the conversation. So I just sat there smiling. And I remember my boss called me over afterwards and he said, I've just had a call from a client, and he said that throughout this really difficult conversation, you just kept smiling, and I was like, Oh god, am I gonna get told off for doing this? And he was like, No, it was the perfect way to be. Like, um, so I think that that optimism was definitely supposed to be well.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Yeah, absolutely, 100%. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 25:50

Out of interest was the client, was the client saying that they were really happy that you'd been smiling all the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Yeah, it it was really positive feedback, which yeah, I was a bit worried that the feedback was going to be it was a bit tone-deaf, but actually no, it was fine.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

Oh, yeah, I think that's I think yeah. I always think, yeah, smiling and just you know, because I I think also like in the industry, you know, we're all we all have the same object. Like we we all want to the campaigns to perform well. We all we all want to work together, and you know, everybody has challenges in their, you know, in their personal lives, everybody has you know, and actually is as you said earlier, getting onto those universal truths of just been like, well, let's have a let's have a in let's enjoy this as a process. It does work can be really, really fun and exciting. And actually you can find, I think like Henry, you can find positives in the stuff that you know on the face of it may seem stressful or boring, but actually as a shared collective where you you know uh ri collectively reflect on things and and acknowledge that challenge that you know we all experience similar challenges, it it disarms a lot of that and makes it a lot lot easier, I think.

SPEAKER_04 26:57

One of the things that I really wanted to ask you about was your take on influence marketing as sort of one of the areas of the very sort of complex media landscape at the moment. And I feel like it's obviously increasingly important in many campaigns, but require and requires like quite a different approach to a lot of traditional channels. But I was wondering if you have any sort of tips on like what's key to working with influencers and in a way that really is going to drive results for the brands you're working with.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

So I think you kind of nailed it in the question in that it requires a different approach. Um, my bugbear about influencers is when people treat them like billboards or like ads, because they're not, they're people. And you know, they're people that have essentially got a following and earned the trust of that following, and therefore they need to be treated as such. So actually, when it comes to influencers, effectiveness is different. It comes from alignment, it comes from cohesion, it comes from a shared vision. If an inf if you really, as a brand, really dictate what an influencer can say, it comes across that way. It, you know, you can you can see it's not true. An influencer knows their audience way better than you as an agency or a brand ever will. So you need to trust that influencer's point of view on that. They are the expert in it. And so what that means is that when you really truly collaborate with an influencer, the best influencer work doesn't, isn't advertising. It's it's actually about creating culture and harnessing culture. And it it happens when you let go a little bit and you let the influencer take the lead. And what that means is it means that when it comes to selecting the influencers you work with, you need to make sure that you select people that really truly work for the brand. You don't just select someone based on their demographic and the amount of followers they've got. You actually kind of go from a core value perspective, where is that true alignment? And then you give the influencer or the creator the space to interpret that brand and do it in their own tone and in their own voice. And then when you come to it, you don't just measure success based on, right, so how many clicks to my website did they drive? Because influencers are bigger than that. As I said, you know, they are the people that have this trust. So thinking about influencers as not a flash in the pan, but a long-term partnership, almost like a brand ambassador. And what is the impact that's going to have on sales, but also on that kind of brand sentiment over the long term? So yeah, they're not posters, they're people.

SPEAKER_04 29:38

When you're trying to measure the sort of the effect on brand sentiment, I mean, because I can imagine that is a really, really difficult thing to do. Are there any sort of go-to ways that you can do that?

SPEAKER_02 29:50

Yeah, so I think, you know, you you you can do modeling work, you can do regression analysis, you can look at uptick in um brand metrics and engagements and those sorts of things. Um, you can also look at social listening. Sometimes it's just obvious, right? Once I did a campaign um and it was for one of the sofa in a box companies, right? And it was their Black Friday, and um we wanted to get kind of it at the time a sofa in a box was a new concept, right? So people kind of didn't understand how it differed from buying a sofa from DFS. And so we were like, but it needs to be talked about. So we're gonna do um podcast sponsorship. So the host introduction is gonna talk about what the concept was. And one of the ones we spoke about was and we chose was Catherine Ryan. Um and she did the most fantastic money can't buy introduction to the sofa in a box company. And she started off by saying, I am furious. I've just bought a sofa, I waited 12 weeks for it, I then had to take my door off the hinge to get it in my house. I'm absolutely furious. And the um uplift that we saw just in terms of engagement with the brand on social and things like that, as a result of this one podcast of hers coming going out was absolutely crazy. So, what we then did off the back of that is turn that into a long-term partnership with her. Um, and as a and as part of the measuring the sales output of it, you know, there was there was lots of elements of it. And we obviously looked at the the modelling work and the the brand um tracking and sentiment as part of that. But she also had her own bespoke voucher code for it. And her voucher code, the sales attributed to her voucher code alone for that year were higher than any of the other sales. Wow. It was absolutely, you know, it was a match made in heaven.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

Yeah. Just just to follow up, I mean, how do you how do you in terms of as you said, like building those long-term brand partnerships and which is kind of you know aligned with the the idea of like long-term effectiveness when a lot of clients thinking about short-term efficiency, you you know, how do you get that balance across where they're like, oh we've we've spent this much with this influencer, what what are the results right now? Oh, that hasn't performed well, and we you know because they these things, a lot of them are cumulative and they build over time. And you know, they build the more you hear Catherine Ryan talking about her sofa or or whatever it may be, the more positive brand sentiment you'll get amongst people, the more likely they are to engage with it. But sometimes, you know, clients might be focusing on those short-term metrics that in some performance media are a little bit more aligned with the way that they may work. How do you balance that? How do you s how do you get the client to get uh to I don't know it's building trust, but what are the what are the key things of getting them to stop thinking about influencing those short-term metrics and those and move to those long-term uh long-term uh well, not necessarily metrics, but long-term approaches.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

So we talked about bravery earlier, and I think sometimes it's about being a little bit relentlessly brave with the client. So when you're going out and you're starting out, making the point of you know you're not gonna see the uptick of this in the short term. Yeah. And actually, here's all the data points around well, you will see it in the long term, but you're not gonna see it in the short term. If they then go, okay, yeah, that's nice, approved, book it, oh, it hasn't performed. Please can I refer you back to my previous slide or my previous email or our previous conversation? And just having that bravery to kind of hold that client to account and saying, look, we had this conversation. You need to give it longer than this. And now I know sometimes circumstances might be out of their control that they understand that, but the people internally in their organization perhaps don't, perhaps it's their CFO, for instance. Um, and I think you know, you can look at indicator metrics. So metrics that are indicators in the short term of positive uptick, but aren't that end goal? And you can kind of create um, you can demonstrate to them how all these indicator metrics are building up to that longer term metric. And I am quite shameless about it because if if I have a client saying to me, Oh, well, I've tried to talk to the CFO, and you know, they're just not listening to me, I say, Can I meet with them? Um and I'll have that conversation. Um, and it's not that I believe I could do it any better than that client, but I just think the more people that communicate that message, the more likely it is to be heard and listened to.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

Because I I I think advertising it should be seen as an is an investment. It's not it's not a short-term cost that you and and I think what's really, really important, particularly as as the with the rise of things like AI and what we what you've been talking about so far with the human element, is really focusing on investment in great planners, great strategists, great insight as well. Because all of the things that drive the capabilities you know stem really from those sorts of areas. It's investment in good quality data. Because AI can tell you, you know, might be able to say, Oh, well, here's the best way to approach a campaign or whatever it might be. But actually it's drawn on quite derivative, generally fairly I mean, the publicly available advertising data is fairly poor quality.

SPEAKER_03 35:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

It's not client-side, you know, it's not Tesco club card data that's feeding into whatever AI system is. It's you know, so uh in really, really pushing that thing of of investment, and and I think that's a a key thing for it, particularly, you know, CFOs, whether they're in the advertising industry or or outside, is to focus on long-term investment rather than short-term return. Because that that that's what kills creativity, and it just you just end up with poor quality outcomes, poor advertising, unengaged people, and ultimately damage to the brand in the in the long term because people go, oh, I you know, this this ad as you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 36:02

They're just chasing me around the internet.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Help, like help. I don't want this whereas exactly if you make that quality engagement, quality content that doesn't really feel like advertising. Because there's something holidays are coming, the Coca-Cola one. That doesn't feel like advertising. That feels like that just feels like positivity. It's a cultural moments, isn't it? Like, do you remember the Jeffrey, the um Toys are Us giraffe? You know, remember, I mean, every parent I think hated that ad because it was like it was like catnip for kids because you'd hear Jeffrey on the team be like, I want to go to Toys R Us. Yeah, but they sort of you know they really are cultural moments, I think, in cultural things that that short-term performance marketing, I think you know short-term performance marketing approaches don't really kind of lean into. Um, but yeah, fascinating stuff.

SPEAKER_04 36:51

I was just wondering, because you've talked about a little bit about how you sometimes just need to be really brave, or like when you're talking about when you're a graduate and you had that meeting and smiling all the way through was actually the best thing that you could have done. Um, do you when you're going into those conversations with like CFOs and or just something that you anticipate is gonna be a tricky conversation? Do you have any tips of like how you sort of navigate those conversations? And if it's just smiling all the way through, that's helpful too.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

Yeah, uh I mean so I I suppose there's the kind of rational what you can do side.

SPEAKER_03 37:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

Um, and then there's the the kind of emotional resilience side of it. So if you start with the emotional resilience side, it's that optimist. You know, no meeting is longer than two hours. So the worst thing that could happen is this will be the worst two hours of my life, and then I'll leave. Like um, just just you know, focusing on having that emotional resilience, getting through it. I think also I'm really fortunate in that I have a wonderful group of friends in the industry, mentors in the industry, people who lift me up, and when I, you know, I'm nervous about something or have a wobble, they're saying, No, you'll be brilliant, don't be stupid. So I think to that regard, like having that support network behind you just gives you that confidence and that that optimism. I think on the rational, what you can do side of it is about preparation. If you know something is going to be difficult, be prepared. And I think the so when I left school at the age of 17, almost 18, my form tutor wrote in my yearbook. And what she wrote was, and I think I think it was because she basically didn't know what to write because she didn't want to write anything bad and didn't want to admit that I should have probably applied myself a bit more. So instead she wrote, I'm sure you'll go far with your powers of persuasion. And I showed my parents and they just burst into laughter over it. And when I think about persuasion, actually it's it's that knitting together of data and and story, or you know, if you present a load of data sets to people, that doesn't persuade them, that just tells them something. If you give someone a story that doesn't have any evidence behind it, it it doesn't travel far. It it it doesn't have any backing. But blending the two of those things together can really help you to persuade people. So if you're going into a tricky conversation, actually, you know, if a client's saying you've totally messed this up, having, you know, admitting fault if it is your fault, but having story and that kind of blend of the art and the science of what you're going to do about it, or actually why they've got it wrong and it isn't a mess up, um, and putting that together in a really compelling way, um, I I think is the best thing you can do. And then maybe, you know, having a glass of wine or whatever it is, whatever it is that that that fits fits the bill for you afterwards.

SPEAKER_04 39:55

Yeah, because I've seen you say that you think the sort of being able to move fluently between data and culture is like a really important skill for the for the planner of the future. Which of those kind of skills that that you've identified as being like really important um for future planners has been most essential in your career so far?

SPEAKER_02 40:17

Um, so I think persuasion. Yeah. Persuasion, I think, is is really important. Um but um that relentless positivity. But I also think curiosity, you know, having the um kind of being unashamed in what you don't know. Um and curiosity can be can be can be anything from um going, well, why is that data saying that? What's the what's the human truth behind that data set? Or it could be who wants to work on this pitch, and going, actually, I'd love to learn about that category. That sounds really exciting. That stems from curiosity, so putting your hand up for things. And I think just being you could you could probably call it short attention span, but I'd call it curiosity, which is just a desire to learn new things, to explore more, to do more, and to understand not just the what, but the why.

SPEAKER_04 41:11

So when you first started out, did you come into the industry with like a a point of view of of what you thought that the industry was going to be like? And has that sort of shifted quite a lot? And how how has it shifted?

SPEAKER_02 41:25

So I think I can answer this in two ways. I think firstly, in terms of the industry as a broader space, it it's an you know, it is a tight, small community of industry. And I I didn't realize that at first, and actually that kind of friendliness, and I, you know, I I have friends at competitive agencies, and you know, if I'm pitching against them, obviously I'd always prefer to win. But if I'm not on the pitch list, then you know, I am very much cheering them on for the from the sidelines as they are for me. So um that kind of general support and friendliness of of everyone in the industry is something that I don't think I expected coming in, but I love. Um, and the other thing is I when I think a bit more specifically about strategy and planning, and you know, you you referenced me saying that you need to have a point of view. I think that is something that's developed in me over time. I think when I came in, I thought that the role of a planner was being someone neutral. It was being someone who took the data and presented that to the client and said, so this is where you should invest your media pounds. And actually, what I've realized is that impartiality is different to neutrality in the sense of you can be an impartial person that sits between the media pounds and the salespeople telling you that their platform is the best platform to spend the money on. Um, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you're neutral. You can you have to have a point of view because ultimately, if you don't have a point of view, you're just a very expensive Google sheet. Like that's all you are. So you have to have a point of view. And that means that sometimes having a point of view is uncomfortable because you're you're um, you know, you're you're taking a risk. People might not agree with that point of view. But as long as you have a point of view that is grounded in thinking and in rigour, no one will blame you for that. I remember a client giving me feedback and saying, your point of view might not always be right, but I like that you have it. And I I think that's the thing that I've developed into in my career. Um, and I encourage everyone to have. And you know, the worst thing that someone in my team could say to me is, I don't have a point of view.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

Indifference is like the hardest thing. Yeah. It's just that kind of uh oh well, you know, ha you know, ha it's very difficult. I was saying to Molly recently, like about it's it's very difficult to people like indifference is one of the hardest things to overcome.

SPEAKER_03 43:55

Oh, completely.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

Because it you know, you you will you know generally you can with most people you can find A common ground where you can find things that you're you know or or or common goals to your roles. But that kind of element of indifference is so hard to uh yeah to overcome when it and it and it it it it also it can really drag down like you can be in a very negative environment, but if you've got a positive team and a great leader, it can actually be the most challenging time you've had, but the most enjoyable time and the most rewarding time.

SPEAKER_01 44:27

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

But if you've got indifference, it's just kind of like it it's that uphill struggle that that that that can make things really, really challenging.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

So I it really is. I um I think about this when you know I've been managing people and that I truly believe that no one goes to work wanting to do a bad job. Yeah. Like why would you work in this industry if you wanted to do a bad job? Like you just it it you just wouldn't. So instead, even when I see indifference, I try to, and I suppose it's that curiosity point to scratch on the surface as to why is there indifference? And actually, more often than not, it comes from a confidence piece. Um, and I think once people learn that they've got permission to have a point of view, and it doesn't matter if your point of view is agreed with or not, as long as you have it and and you have a reason why that is your point of view, um, that's cool with me.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

Yeah. I always think like the two the only the only two things that any I think anybody uh uh can anybody can be a great presenter. And I think that the two things is you need to know what you're talking about and you need to be passionate about it. And I think that actually across the board, in most things in life, those two things will get you a very, very long way. If you if you if you've done your homework, as you said, and just are excited about whatever it might be, you you can you can turn real negatives into positives and and and and that's one of the things that I've loved about the conversation we've had today and the things that you've been talking about is that positive like I feel uplifted. I feel like just talking about this stuff, you feel like actually, you know, whether it's like getting a mortgage or whatever, you know, or whatever it might, buying a house or any anything thing, or but taking out new insurance. If you if you take it in a in a or kind of as a positive, uh take a positive approach with it, you can act it actually doesn't have to be the big negative that it always that it may seem like or a big big complicated thing that it seems like.

SPEAKER_02 46:22

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think I love this industry. I feel so lucky to work in this industry. You know, we get to chat to brilliant people, we get to um do exciting work, we get to, you know, put our thoughts into the world where you know I can look at a spot list and say to my mum, Oh, watch ITV at 9.05 pm. Yeah, yeah. And you'll see something I did. Um, I don't necessarily do that anymore, but that, you know, um it's what a privilege.

SPEAKER_00 46:52

Absolutely. And I love I love that when we do things like we obviously do the planning and strategy summit and the insight summit, just ha I mean, we're in a very like uh I've Molly and I've often talked about it, you know, as as the IP, we're in a very, very fortunate position as the IPA because we are very privileged to speak to some of the most amazing people, to see kind of behind the scenes on some of the most amazing work. And also with things like when we put together things like the Planning and Strategy Summit or the Insight Summit, people are willing to share with their colleagues, with their competitors even within the industry, with their clients, and talk about these approaches. And I know one of the ones that the the campaign that that you worked on, which was the Booper uh Health Is campaign that uh Rachel Coffey presented as well at the recent Insight Summit, uh sorry, Planning and Strategy Summit. You know, that is about such innovative uh thinking that is so beneficial, I think. The approaches that were taken within that campaign, you know, they are essentially they're great trade secrets, they're great things that you could have kept to your to yourself and not told anyone about. But actually that idea of well, collectively we can do something better for the industry and also celebrate the great work, which is going to be a benefit to us and is going to uh really showcase that, but also that shareability element of it and the willingness to think, well, as a collective, as an advertising industry, we're all working in the same direction, and cross-pollination sharing information is is really really vital. Um one of the other things that you've uh I know you've uh you've argued you know argued for is that you know, and it kind of goes back to something we've been talking about already, but about not letting uh platform KPIs dictate the story. You know, that kind of can you kind of give us an example of uh you know, other other kind of things of you know, whether whether it's say, for example, in social or whatever, you know, whether it's more kind of like the performance might media side of things, you know, how you can resist those metrics to get better outcomes that uh and actually get people on side with new approaches.

SPEAKER_02 48:55

Yes. So I'll start off by saying resisting platform KPIs can be a very uncomfortable thing to do. Because your your natural thing is to go, this is what it's telling me to do, I'll do it. But actually, it can be incredibly fruitful. So when you sent this through to me in advance, I had it I had a think through some of the campaigns that I've been lucky enough to work on. Um and one that came to me, which was I think it was kind of 2018, 2019, was the relaunch of Carlsberg. Okay. And so when we did the analysis and we looked at all of the platforms, basically what it was saying is, you know, the the brewery were creating a new formulation of Carlsberg, which was gonna be much higher quality than it had been before. And everything was saying you need to target the existing Carlsberg drinkers. Um, because you know, they're the people that already love Carlsberg and you're gonna say it's it's even better. Great. Um I felt there was a problem with that. A, that audience was in decline.

unknown 49:53

Right.

SPEAKER_02 49:54

B, aren't they gonna buy Carlsberg anyway? Like it it to me, it didn't ring true. So we were, you know, we we really challenged that. Um and instead we we absolutely flipped it on its head. And instead, what we did, um we worked, you know, hand in glove with the creative agency on this is that we took that famous Carlsberg, probably the best tagline and turned it into probably not the best. Um, admitting that the previous formulation hadn't been that good.

SPEAKER_03 50:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:25

And we actively started off as a really, really tight core audience to launch, probably not. Is we targeted the people who had put mean tweets out about, and it was tweets at the time, about how awful Carlsberg tasted. So one of the people we reached out to had tweeted, Carlsberg tastes like fetted camel piss. And that we were like, that person. We need to reach that person. Um, and and you know, we we we went for them first on a really personalized one-to-one basis. And from that, built out to much, much broader audiences. At no point did we intentionally target people who already drank Carlsberg. Instead, we went for people who drank Bud Light. Um, so that as an example is where we really resisted what all of the social platforms were telling us to do, which was go after these existing drinkers and kind of did the opposite. Um, but actually now initially the sales were slower, and I think they were probably slower than what had we gone after that existing Carlsberg audience. But over the long term, if you looked at that brand trajectory, if you looked at the brand momentum, if you looked at the sentiment around that new launch of Carlsberg, um, it completely outdid what um what the what the platform-led approach would have done.

SPEAKER_00 51:56

Yeah. And I like, I like that reflexivity, like that element of, you know, I think that as well leans back to the the human element of what you were talked about before, of saying, you know, we're probably not the best. Or, you know, Avis did a really good one where they said, you know, we're number two, so we try harder. You know, we're you know, we're not the biggest, but we're gonna we're gonna make it. And I guess what's really interesting to me about the fact that you focused not on those existing customers is if you buy a product, there may be a large proportion of those people really love that product, even though most people say it's terrible. But if you put new formula on there, to them that they're gonna go, what have you done to it? I liked it before. Yeah. Whereas if you're not buying that and you see something that says brand new formula, you might go, Oh, actually, I didn't used to like that, but I might like this new one, or oh, this this product's clearly innovating because they've got a new formula, so I'll buy it, you know. And I think that that's fascinating. I love I love these these kind of examples that you're giving us hope because it it really you know sparks off you know creativity and and and I know it will for listeners as well at home, just thinking, wow, you know, that's a that's a novel approach that I never would have thought of. But having spoken, uh having having uh spoken to you today, like yeah, it's it's it's giving us loads of loads of really interesting ideas.

SPEAKER_02 53:11

Yeah, I mean that was you know, that one was a privilege to work on. It was really fun. The whole time I was working on it, however, I was pregnant, so the client was constantly offering me a taste of the new formulation, and I could never try it. You know, I think I might have licked it and sniffed it. Um and basically as soon as I had the baby, I was like, right, we need to go to the pub so I can try this new Carlsberg.

SPEAKER_00 53:33

Was it better though?

SPEAKER_02 53:34

It was I can confirm it was better. I mean, it might have been the lack of sleep, I don't know. Um but I did send a selfie to the client when I was probably about a week postpartum with me enjoying a pint.

SPEAKER_00 53:46

And the thing, the thing is, you know, in terms of like you were talking about the personal relations, like for the client, the fact that you have done, you know, have made that effort to it really, I think, sh demonstrates like a uh, you know, a strong personal link that and and a s a strong passion that you have to the product that the client that you're working on. You know, it's that thing of really getting to know the product and and making and and I guess that builds a really, really strong client agency relationship because the agency's gonna go, oh yeah, Caroline. Look, here's this picture, you know, of of her who enjoying it and actually engaging with it rather than just being like, oh well, I'm working on this purely because it's a client, you know.

SPEAKER_02 54:28

Yeah, but at the same time, like what's the point of doing something if you don't care about it? Like you've got to care. That's that's where the fun comes in. So um, yeah, like care. And if you don't care, find a reason to care. Yes. Because um it it will become infinitely better once. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 54:47

In our final sort of section, we were hoping to ask some more sort of like f future-looking questions. And I was wondering if there are any emerging media trends that are currently really exciting you, and if there are any that you think are overhyped at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 55:07

So I think when I think about what's exciting me, um it's anything, I suppose, that brings kind of media and real life experiences together. It's it's that coming together of content and commerce and community, but coming together in a way that really makes sense, like TikTok shop, for instance. That's that's one example where that's happened and it just makes sense. And I think working out not just as small brands, but as big a brands, how we can take that as a model and you know, really extend it, putting it even into the physical real world. Um, I think that really, really excites me. And I know we've talked a bit as well about the um focus on short-term metrics that some clients and brands can have. But you know, we have been seeing a move towards um brands understanding the importance of investing in their brand. And that is something that excites me no end and is probably the best piece of news I could have read all year. Um, and I'm talking about last year, not just the few weeks we've had so far. Um yeah, I think I think those two things are the things that are really exciting me for the year. When I think about things that might be overhyped or that I'm less excited by, it's novelty for novelty's sake. Anything that is an innovation or a new format or a new way of doing things without a why or without a reason or without attention that it's trying to resolve. Like it's just innovation for innovation's sake. It's just trying to win an award with absolutely no substance behind it. Um, innovation to me is really exciting if it's useful and if it's useful to, you know, the brand, or if it's useful to even better consumers. But if it it's not one of those things, then really what's the point of it? It's just trying to sound clever.

SPEAKER_00 57:05

Yeah. It's like the thing that I saw this is an old clip that I saw years ago where you know there was a road and they kept digging up the road. And then the guy was like, Why are you digging up the road? And he's like, Oh, we've got budget to use up and we won't get budget next year if we don't dig up the road. So, but this is just digging up the road for no fun, you know.

SPEAKER_02 57:21

It's exactly that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:23

Yeah. So one thing I'd like to just um I'd like to kind of close up just of like a a a forward kind of thought of you know, if you if you could change, if there's one sort of widespread assumption about planning, and I think you've kind of you've touched on a few of the things that that um that that would lean into this uh so far. But you know, if you could change one assumption or one kind of widespread perception of planning for the future, and to and to kind of as something that would make people go, oh wow, I really want to work in planning, or I really am inspired by that. What would you know, I know it's a tough question, but what would that one thing be, do you think?

SPEAKER_02 57:59

So I think like that widespread assumption, and I I think given the current ecosystem and everything that we're living in at the moment, is that precision targeting. Um people think precision automatically means effectiveness.

unknown 58:18

Right.

SPEAKER_02 58:18

And that effectiveness automatically means efficiency. And actually, precision, effectiveness, and efficiency are three different things. Um and actually, media planning isn't just about how can I reach the most amount of people as cheaply as I can. And you know, we've we've talked about this at length, but actually it's about reaching those people meaningfully. Um and sometimes, you know, the most powerful ideas are the least precise ideas and probably the least efficient as well. Um, you know, the the really powerful ones can be broad, they're emotionally generous, they're culturally relevant. Um, and to that point, you know, planning, it's it's not about chasing people down. It's it's not about going, you know, how can I hound someone until they basically put on an ad blocker or convert? Um, you know, it's it's actually about creating experiences that that people want to engage with. And that for me is really exciting. And who wouldn't want to do that?

SPEAKER_00 59:27

Absolutely. And it as I said, uh it's been so inspiring talking to you today, Carol. And I know, I mean, from just just looking at kind of the the things that you accomplished with in 2025, I know 2026 is going to be a fantastic year ahead. Well, have you got any things that you're particularly working on at the minute that you're really excited about or new approaches that you're doing?

SPEAKER_02 59:46

Um, so we are bedding in um some new clients, which is always really, really exciting um and um fulfilling and um you know they're absolutely brilliant brands. So I feel incredibly lucky and fortunate to be doing that. And then, of course, you know, we've had the acquisition of IPG by Omnicom. So I have a whole new host of brilliant colleagues to get to know, but also learning for myself and my team around how can we bring the best of both of those networks together to really supercharge everything that we're capable of. Um, so those are probably two of my big focuses, and I'm I'm really excited to get stuck in that.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:27

Wow, yeah. I mean it's it's it's yeah, it's a really exciting. I think that's the thing, you know, we get so concerned maybe about the complexity of of of AI and things going on, but actually it's probably the most exciting time to be in the advertising industry right now. I think with change, changes occurring, with you know, a more complex media landscape means more creativity in how you can approach media. It means more, you know, compare it to like the 80s, you know, buying TV, buying four three, four channels on TV was a bit more straightforward. Now you're buying video in so many different formats at so many different audiences and you know, new ways of doing things that actually you've got more tools in your arsenal and more stuff to play with and more positive you know, possibility to do things that the advertising and media have never done before.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:13

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:13

So, thank you very, very much for coming in today, Caroline. We've I've had such a uh fascinating time talking to you and really, really enjoyed it. And uh yeah, thank you very much once again.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:24

Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you for having me.