The IPA Making Sense Podcast: Zehra Chatoo

Zehra Chatoo, the founder of AI consultancy Code for Good Now, joins the IPA Making Sense podcast to discuss how AI can transform marketing without losing the human touch, what true inclusivity looks like in brand storytelling, the role that creators will play in shaping the digital culture and much more.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:10

Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of the IPA Making Sense Podcast, where we're going to be making sense of the complicated things in advertising and media today, and hopefully also just making them a little bit more fun. I'm your host, Simon Frasier, and along with our brand new associate producer of the Making Sense Podcast, Molly Bruce, and today we have an incredible guest joining us, Zara Chatu. So Zera is a trailblazer at the intersection of AI creativity and also representation. She's the founder of Code for Good Now, which is a consultancy dedicated to helping brands harness technology responsibly and inclusively. She has a career that spans leadership roles at MGOMD and Meta, and also is a strong voice in diversity and equity initiatives. Zara brings a unique perspective on how brands can thrive in an era of rapid change. So in this episode, we're going to be diving into big questions. You know, how can AI transform marketing without losing the human touch? What does true inclusivity look like in brand storytelling, and what role will create creators be playing in shaping the next wave of digital culture? So a big welcome to the IPA Making Sense podcast, Zara Chattoo.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Oh, thank you. Lovely to be here, and thank you for that wonderful intro.

SPEAKER_03 1:23

Well, it's we do our best. We do our best, Zara. But honestly, it writes itself with a career with uh you know, with your sort of with your background, it really writes itself, doesn't it? So there's there's so many amazing things that you've um that you've that you've done in your career so far. Now, to start off, I mean to start off a big question that I wanted to ask first and foremost is you know, your career spans, you know, the the tech giants like Meta, you've also worked at agencies like MGOMD, and now your own venture code for good now. What inspired you to take that leap from corporate leadership to founding a a purpose-driven consultancy?

SPEAKER_01 1:56

I mean, I think for me, within agencies, but also specifically at Meta, you know, I had the opportunity to just be so close to what technology can provide, the opportunity that it can provide for all. And I think I think there is so much extraordinary power when it comes to technology, but it does need to be pointed in that direction. And, you know, I think we're in a really interesting moment right now with the acceleration of AI and AI adoption. Um, but I think there are some challenges to solve in this moment, and I think there's an urgency when it comes to this moment, especially when it uh comes to challenges like bridging the gender gap in AI adoption, designing without bias. Um, and I think it's important to have focus and also a sense of freedom to, you know, really build approaches from the ground up when it comes to sort of uh overcoming some of these challenges. And so I set up Code for Good Now with that as a mission and with a really key problem to solve for. You know, how do we solve the gender bias when it comes to adoption? Um, you know, at the moment we see women are using AI 20% less than men are, and I think the challenge there is AI is a technology that is shaped by its users. You know, the input shapes its output. Um and so getting that input right and getting that user base accurate and representative is going to make sure that what we see in AI is representative and without bias. Um and so, and that's why I founded Code for Good Now with a clear mission to solve for that.

SPEAKER_03 3:47

Wow, that I mean that's fantastic. Because I I know when we've talked in the past, you we've always said that one of the things that you really enjoyed when you were working at Meta is just having the ability to ask lots and lots of questions and to have some of the, you know, some really exciting data sets to work with and really exciting tools. And I and going on to to as well, you know, the where you were just talking there about the idea that AI essentially needs to be fed correctly and grown and nurtured correctly in order to be able to create an an inclusive future. Um that's something that I'd never really thought about. Because it's it's it you kind of forget in a way when you're using AI systems that it's learning off of what you're saying. And if, as you said, there's that underrepresentation in the audience that's participating in that learning process, that's can that can be amplified and have quite a negative impact. So it's uh I mean it's a fantastic initiative and it's something I'm really, really, really excited about. So can you tell us a bit more about why that adoption gap exists and also what you know what what what are you doing to solve it, Zara?

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Yeah, I mean, yeah, so it is it's interesting, isn't it? Because the technology, like you say, is so fueled by its user base, getting this right is really important. Um and so, you know, why is there this gap? Um, there's been you know lots of studies into this, and there's the the most recent is um a Harvard business piece, it's over a hundred thousand sort of users, and ultimately what it highlights is even when access to AI is equal between women and men, we're still seeing that gap. Um, and it's driven by, or at least the number one reason for it is uh the need uh for perfection, this sort of sense that it's a form, it's a perceived form of cheating when it comes to um how women are thinking about it, or at least women who aren't using it are thinking about it, um, which is really fascinating. And I think it just plays into this need for perfection and not taking shortcuts. Um and so there is a reframe that's needed here because AI is very much about you know co-creation, it's around what you can do with it. It's not about giving power to AI, it's about how you use it in, you know, in together collectively. Um but interestingly, one of the solutions um is training. So, what this study found is that training and role modelling, working in conjunction with each other sort of trebles adoption of for women. Um, and so it's become a really important piece of Code for Good Now's offering. So we have a training program, it's called Permission to Prompt. Um, and it is all about really sort of leveling that gap. And so, you know, we go into teams or organizations, have a diagnostic tool to really understand okay, where are the gaps? Um, and how can we solve for it through bespoke training programs? And so that's that's a really key part of it. Um, the second thing we offer at Code for Good Now, and the second solution is around uh we've built an AI model that is uh focused on designing out bias, and then of course we have strategic consultancy for specific briefs. So three different offers, but all wrapped around this mission to really minimize bias in AI adoption.

SPEAKER_03 6:58

Wow, I mean that that sounds that sounds really, really exciting. And I I like that, you know, I AI really, you know, you're saying as is it some people will see it as a kind of a form of cheating. And that idea because we were talking recently to the of Rory Southern on the podcast about kind of the two mindsets of of explore versus exploit. And kind of the idea that you know, in terms of AI, uh Cath um Caroline Manning recently described AI as being like an Ironman suit. You know, it enables her, it gives her an extra superpower to be able to do new and innovative stuff. Um and I think that that's kind of yeah, that that being able to build confidence so that people are going, do you know what? I'm using this to explore and empower myself to do new creative things rather than go down the thing of, well, what can I do less worse, you know? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Absolutely. And I think that I think that's a really interesting kind of exploit explore. I think that's really interesting. I I think about it is um judgment and prediction. So if we think about decisions and decision making, actually, it's almost built in two parts prediction and judgment. And AI is essentially this incredible prediction machine, right? It's the most predictive machine.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Um but what it doesn't have is judgment. You know, we as humans, we have judgment, you know, judgment to question, judgment to challenge, um, to ask prompts in different ways, to use different AI models to test against one another. And so I think that's the part around exploration that you that you mention. It's this sense around, okay, what sh what could I be asking this? How could I be pushing this more? And you know, it I also feel, especially as a founder, you know, AI has been a brilliant co-creator for me. Um, but it I've had to work with it. Um, and I think that's that's the key thing, like how can we co-create together? Um, and that sense around always it's this dance between judgment and prediction.

SPEAKER_03 9:03

Another area you specifically talked about in your piece in the latest edition of the Making Sense Commercial Media Landscape Report, available now for free on the IPA website. There's a shameless plug there, of course. Um, but that was about representation of people over 50 in advertising. Are you, I mean, are you similarly seeing that reduced uptake of AI amongst the audiences over 50? And what do you think are the implications of that in terms of that representativity?

SPEAKER_01 9:27

Yes, we are. So it's it's very similar to the kind of bias I I spoke about before, you know, with this audience. Um again, if we if we don't have this user-base kind of building, essentially it is building, right? It's building the output, you know, we're going to be designing without the most valuable audience. You know, we talked a lot about it in the Making Sense report around, you know, how you know this audience is hugely valuable from an economic perspective, but from a culture perspective. Um, so it's it's really key that we design for this audience too. Um, and actually, what we find as uh some of the gaps in adoption or some of the um challenges that we should overcome with this audience. Interestingly, it's a it's a lot around sort of confidence slash competence. Actually, they are using it when they are using it, it's less frequently, but they they're using it well, uh, but they question whether they are. So there is this sort of confidence gap with that audience. There's also an ethical piece, you know, concern about data, um, and rightly so. And you know, I think this is where we do need to have legislation. Um, but yes, it is a gap, and you know, I think it's one to solve for, and I think, you know, you know, a great challenge for advertising to see what we can do to reframe uh we're such an important audience.

SPEAKER_03 10:48

And I I think the interesting thing that I find, you know, in studies and the things that I've done with touch points data, but also kind of research that we've done, is younger audiences uptake technology at a far higher rate, but actually they're getting the like getting technology to embed or change their behaviour is far, far harder. Whereas actually for older audiences the uptake, the rate of uptake is slower, but when they find a piece of technology that really connects, then they really like for example, um you know, if you look at say the use of like Alexa and voice activated devices, for older audiences th that those that use them really use them. Whereas for younger audiences it's kind of a oh that was a nice novelty, but it seems to be less and less uh kind of a less of a prominent thing.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

It's such a good point. When you when you get it right, it's there's like a loyalty in it, it's just embedded within their behaviour. And I think, you know, I mean, you know, some of the some of the points that we had talked about when we were doing the make make sense piece um around just, you know, half of the global consumer spending is with this audience, and yeah, there's there's just so much we should be doing, and you know, even if we look inside it, our organizations and um agencies, I know IPA did a huge thing around kind of representation within um advertising of this audience, what what was it, like four or five percent? I mean, it was a lot of within agencies. Um so that's this is something really important to solve for.

SPEAKER_03 12:14

Because I guess it's a similar, you know, as we were talking earlier about the the you know, the data that's being used to train AI systems and actually the lived experience within agencies, it kind of has it really resonates well because if there isn't that representation of older audiences or diverse audiences within the agency, then you get into the realms of that kind of stereotypical thinking and stereotypical I mean you see it a lot if you ever watch like The Apprentice when they get like a fifty-five plus task and then it's like you know, this like most stereotypical advertising that you've ever seen that they come up with. But um but having kind of you know people with a seat at the table.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

Being able to, you know, be authentically represented, I think is really, really exciting. Because we've you hear obviously, of course, there's you know that people people talk about the negative aspects of AI. Um and we've touched on a number of the a number of the ones in terms of what you're doing with Code for Good now of the positive ones. But where you know, where are you seeing AI right now being used for like really exciting and good stuff within the industry or even outside of the industry?

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Like your yeah, I mean there are you know some really great uh case studies and pieces of work. I mean, one that's top of mind is I recently judged um the campaign in-house awards, um, and we just had uh kind of the award ceremony uh very recently, and actually the work that was done by three for Lily Parr um, you know, We See You campaign, I thought was brilliant. So it essentially what they did is so Lily Parr, an incredible footballer, female footballer, trailblazer in the 1920s, was banned from football for 50 years. You know, and so what they did is they recreated Lily Parr through AI. Yeah. Um they created a podcast with one incredible, you know, lioness um interviewing Lily Parr, but they used it based on several different, they used um a historian working with AI, again, this judgment prediction piece, super interesting. Um, and they were able to sort of create what representative responses would be based on this historian and kind of multiple sort of chat GPTs. And um and they recreated her image from a black and white picture. Um just and I just thought it was a really good example of using technology, using specifically AI, to um shine a spotlight on an unmet, incredibly powerful voice. Um, and um, you know, I guess to this conversation, a really good example of creativity, representation and AI coming together. Um, so I love that work, and I'm really glad that there, you know, I think the recognition that the work's getting is super important and also a really important signal to the industry around like what you can do. Um, what are the gaps that you know AI can fill and recreate? Um and I think from a creativity perspective, that's only going to get better. Yeah, but you know, I love that work. I thought so I think that's really interesting. I think um language is really interesting, kind of broader than just our industry, and you touched on it as well, Simon, but you know, single language, like optimizing for a single language, I think is really important. I think one of the biggest barriers when it comes to accessibility is often in different markets where English may not be your first language. And, you know, on Meta, on Google, you know, you have billions of translations taking place every day, and just the ability to provide um other markets with content that would be really valuable, I think is a huge opportunity. We're seeing a lot of it in healthcare. Um, a lot of work that's gone into women's health actually is being uh used in Africa to sort of really solve some key challenges to do with childbirth. And, you know, I think there's some really brilliant use cases around accessibility of information. Um, and then I guess if I was to bring it back to this industry, you know, single language, universal language translation, even for creators, I mean, how interesting is that? I know there's obviously, you know, creators are a huge trend. I mean, they've always been a trend. It's not new, but there's a real acceleration there when it comes to effectiveness. And actually, if you combine that from a global perspective with universal language translators, like what that can do for, you know, creators, connectivity, commerce, you know, I think it's really fascinating.

SPEAKER_03 17:02

Really exciting. And on the on the work that was done with Lily Parr, I think it's like seeing seeing it come to life. What I love about that is, you know, it you know, as as w you know, when people talk about, you know, it's somebody when somebody passes away or they're or they're no longer with us, that you know, they don't they don't pass away when they go is when people stop talking about them or stop remembering them. And actually bringing like bringing Lily Parr and her legacy back and suddenly making you know, it's so empowering when you see see the work that that was done there and also really, really inspiring, you know. I think if you think back to you know the era when I was at when I was first at school, like actually being like, Oh, okay, now we're gonna have an interview with uh, you know, a pioneering female footballer. How how powerful must that be for young women who are who are kind of kind of getting into sports and actually being able to see that representation that you know this isn't necessarily just a new phenomenon. This is something that's been going on for years, and there's kind of issues of of uh representativity and and oppression that have gone on in that past there that we can now learn more about and and build a better future.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

So I think that's really, really and I mean just imagine you know what that looks like for education and history and how we learn. Really exciting.

SPEAKER_03 18:12

Unbelievable. You know, just imagine like an interview with like Bodicier or something, you know, or June Navarre. You know, like it'd be fantastic, really, really exciting. Because then you can build that yeah like communication for for young for young minds which are kind of constantly learning and expanding it. Just you know, I've I haven't really thought about it that much. That's a new that's a really exciting thing.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

And I suppose just you know, building on that, I I guess it comes, I think the thing that's really interesting about it, based on how we may have learned in the past, is it just brings it to life, doesn't it? And it makes it so interesting. And there is a level of I I would like to think interactivity where people can ask questions to, you know, a lily par or whoever it might be. And maybe, you know, this goes back to this question around explore exploits or uh judgment prediction, where, you know, what I think the thing that's really interesting with education is that I think we're we're looking, you know, the skill set needed to do really well or to thrive in the age of AI, you know, is going to evolve. We don't know what jobs are going to look like, you know, in the next few years. Who knows? I think it's very hard to predict. But I think the skills you need will be around critical thinking and questioning and testing and learning. And so, you know, starting and implementing that within education and leaning into that, I think will only serve people very well.

SPEAKER_03 19:35

Yeah, and I I'm really I'm really excited about this. That's because it's not something that we've I obviously remember you presenting the uh the work at the recent planning and strategy summit and then you know thinking back about it. But you know, when you're a kid, the idea of like time travel or being able to talk to people from different eras, different parts of the world, or whatever it may be, like how exciting is that to be able to meet Genghis Khan and to be able to understand whatever it might be. I don't know. Anyway. Um I'm gonna pass over to Molly now because Molly's gonna talk a little bit about some of the influencers things as well.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

Yes, so um you touched on creators and obviously how huge their influencer marketing space is at the moment. And you've may have seen that we've been doing quite a lot of work surrounding like influencer measurement at the IPA, especially so we release some um new findings at the effectiveness conference. So, with your like vast experience obviously at Meta, how do you see the role of like influencers changing the industry as we like go forward? And also do you think there's still quite a lot to be done to like understand their impact a lot more?

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Yeah, I mean, there's so many things at play with creators. Um I think I think there are a few things. I think the first is um there is you know an evolving approach to brands being built from the ground up. You know, over a third of media spenders now on creators, so it's very much, you know, where we are now. Um at Meta, you know, it was creators were proven to be hugely effective and untapped, lots of untapped potential. So one of the things that I led at Meta was the next generation of brand building, and it was all around, you know, what are, you know, in a shifting, evolving landscape, kind of what are the key, key uh contributors to build brand? And I thought what was fascinating, you know, we loads of uh studies on the platform. The one that kind of I worked on was based on 20,000 campaigns across Amir. And the number one driver of uh shifting deeper brand metrics was including creators within campaigns. And they had such a profound impact that I used the term multipliers whenever I would talk about creators, because when you include them in your campaign, they try. Just have a disproportionate impact on brand. And I think that's really important because you know, I think creators have always been known to be performance drivers, but actually their impact on brand and deeper brand metrics like consideration and preference, we were seeing shifts by up to 139% when you include them within your campaign. So I think they are absolutely a growth driver. I think that there are a couple of things that are interesting when you sort of add to that. So from an effectiveness point, yes, absolutely. And it's great to see the work that IPA have done here to really prove that effectiveness as well. I think what's interesting is in the past, we may have thought about creators as you know, almost a way to add scale to your campaign and you know, think about their followers and how do you sort of kind of expand the reach potentially of your campaign through creators. But actually what we're seeing is it's their impact on creativity that is driving a lot of the effectiveness that we saw. So, you know, the creative canvas has never been more accessible. And creators are really leaned into this, and they're building and they're creating, and they understand their community like no other. They understand platforms like no other as well, and they know what's going to land with their audience. Um, and so they just have this incredible creative canvas. And so I I often think about them as this creator content engine where they're just building and creating content that is going to resonate with their audience in really smart ways. Um, and what's interesting is we're sort of moving from followers to just expertise, trust is really significant and just the impact that they have. Um and then I think the third thing that is really um fueling effectiveness for this this audience as well is just AI-driven targeting. We've we've spoken about personalization at scale, but the fact that you can now use all their content and have smart ways of you know automated and AI fuel targeting to reach audiences in fascinating ways, just means that their kind of impact can be accelerated even further. So I think there are a few things at play with creators that just make them, I don't I feel it's like the perfect canvas for them to drive impact. I think there is more to be done on um the playbook for creators. I think um, I think there are that there is something that we should do as an industry kind of coming together on this, where sort of, you know, platforms, agencies, um, you know, bodies like the IPA to have a more rigour where we can. I think that's happening. I think we're seeing that, but I think more, I think we can we can do even more because their impact is only going to get greater. And so unpacking sort of, you know, what the playbook looks like to drive responsible growth with creators whilst um, you know, they're they're people helping them as well responsibly is really important too.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Yeah, I remember actually, I think it was at the Effectiveness Conference they had like a panel after the talk, and they had a creator on the panel, and he was saying that often he sort of gets a brief and it's not very like as someone who's maybe isn't so familiar with the industry and like some of the um like the terms that we use, he was kind of sort of unsure. Like he said there would it would have been better if he'd had like a brief that was much more easy for him to sort of like break down and understand and like it would have sparked more creative ideas, I like I suppose. But yeah, no, I mean it's a sort of fascinating space. I mean, what do you think? Like, what do you think that if I mean obviously it's likely to just exponentially keep on growing, but like what would that impact be on traditional advertising models, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 26:07

Yeah, I mean I think that, you know, I think the rules of advertising are more important than ever, and I don't think they'll change. I think, you know, the power of a big idea couldn't be more important with creators. And to your point around briefing, and you know, it's really important to have creators in the room when you are briefing. Um, but you know, you do need to there's I guess there's a shift from controlled assets to giving creators um enough control as well. So as a brand being in control enough to let go, um, giving a bit more freedom to creators to build their own because they understand that community so much more. So I think there's certain rules, you know, emotion, creativity, the power of a big idea that are even more important than ever before. But the ways to get to that has more nuance. And I think, you know, building brands from the ground up means that you do need to empower them. What is the way they would like to be briefed, to your point? You know, understand what's going to land with them because they're going to be creating incredible content for you. And so the better you can get at that briefing process. I think the briefing process is one of the most important parts, actually. Um, because you also get into licensing and all sorts of things with creator content that, you know, you may not be involved in and other parts of a brief. Um, but I always say ideas never go wrong at the end, they always go wrong at the start. So get the right people in the room from the very beginning is really key.

SPEAKER_03 27:29

Abs Absolutely. And I I think that's the um that's a really good and really good phrase actually. Uh because you know, often where um you'll hear that marketing are aren't involved until the last until they've made the product. And then eventually, you know, you can you're trying to market a product where there's no market for it. Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 27:46

And that's really exciting. Do you think that there's um because one of the challenges where there when it on the client side with any kind of new or evolving media is well there's not a lot of data to, you know, we've always done these media. There's not a lot of data for how, you know, for this media or that media, and we don't think that will work. How do you overcome some of those, you know, working at Meta, how do you how do you get people to try new approaches when they're maybe a little bit resistant by going, oh, we've never used social influence before? You know, what what's the top tip for that? Would you say that?

SPEAKER_01 28:19

I mean, gosh, I think it is it is all about experimentation. It is, you know, on platforms, social platforms, digital platforms, the power of experimentation, the more experiments you do, the higher your effectiveness always. I mean, I think it's you know, that it's something like you know, if you if you run over sort of 15 experiments per year, you increase your ROI by over 30%. It's huge. And it's just, you know, test, test, test, test, test and learn, and then optimize. And you really create on platforms, you know, you create a flywheel effect by doing that because you're getting better in your learning, and that learning is providing more sort of data points to improve your performance. And so really lean into experimentation, um, I think is like the secret ingredient of success on platforms. And I just in general as well, I think you know, always be testing new things, trying new things. I think some of the brands that drive the greatest level of success do that. You know, if I look at a brand like Gymshark, yeah, um, it's essentially based on a flywheel of learning and feedback loops on digital social platforms. But also, you know, that's a dis was a disruptor. I don't know, would you, you know, it was born a disruptor, but it is huge and impactful. Um, but you know, even brands like L'Oreal, you know, the established brands, they've kind of created conditions in their culture around experimentation, enabling them to constantly test and learn and optimize. Um, and I think they're seeing great success because of that. So it's definitely a muscle that we, you know, I think I I would always advise brands to lean into that.

SPEAKER_03 30:01

To really encourage that explorative kind of approach of just Yeah, because I think it Rory Sutherland he talks about comparing, like, for example, open cast mining, so like mining for say iron ore and open, you know, digging a big hole and then extracting as much as you can out of it. But actually, there's a good proportion, he makes the analogy with bees, of kind of going, you know, uh treasure hunting or gold hunting, you know, and saying, well, 80% will focus on that, but actually 20% of our time will spend going treasure hunting because you know it's like Nazim Talib's stuff on like thin and fat-tailed distributions. You know, there may be a single event that disproportionately, you know, gives incredible benefit, like they say, like Bill Gates walking into uh you know the Emirates Stadium and suddenly the the average worth, you know, t tangible wealth amongst them is suddenly skyrockets for every single individual because it pulls up the you know that but those explorative approaches are are really key in that.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

Yeah, and I to that point, you you need to create the can I think you need to be very intentional about creating the conditions for that. So I love that 20% piece. You you do need to always have that running. And it can't be the piece that you just remove because you know that's the worry about having something on the side which is doing it, but it has to be, you know, consistently happening across your organization at all times.

SPEAKER_03 31:18

Yeah, because that's where you get the most for long-term approaches. You know, long-term growth approaches seem to be most, as you as you as you said, they're you know, strongly linked to experimentation uh and having that ability in there.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

It's um is that something that you'd say is like linked is something you've like kind of tried to do all the way through your career as well as because I feel like that's such an important part of just I mean, as someone at the like a fairly early stage in my career. Yeah. Just like trying lots of new things and experimenting. Like, has that been has that played a part in in your journey? Would that be a piece of advice that you'd give?

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Absolutely. I would say optimise for learning, where you can learn, just lean into that. Um, try things and you know, when you don't win, you learn. And actually, I think you need to have freedom to let yourself learn as well. Um, don't fall in the perfection trap where you you you know, you kind of contain your opportunity for learning if you're doing that. If you always have to get the right answer, there's no space to learn and grow. And so I think it's a really important muscle. And um, yeah, it would definitely be what I advise people, whether it's brands, whether it's um, you know, a behavior to embody throughout your career. And I think also, funnily enough, you know, as a as someone who's just founded a business, I even have to, you know, one of my KPIs I've set myself is am I learning fast enough? Um I often think about this as pilot season um quite intentionally because I want to learn, because I know that it's in trying different things and getting them wrong and then, you know, getting better. Um and then also having a level of resilience that it's when you get you get it wrong, the next time you'll just get up faster. So I'd always optimize for learning. That would be my my uh advice.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

Yeah, that that reminds me of some I think I had this in a in another podcast, can't remember, can't remember which, but that if you don't if you're too scared of of failing, then you never make that first step. And that even if you fail then, then your chances of like opening up a success down the line are so much greater, but if you never make that decision or that first step, then you're never gonna succeed or fail. So you may as well just try and then So true. And then you at least if you fail, like you had an option to succeed.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

And there's courage.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

There's a lot of courage in you know, in that advice that you that you've already given yourself to optimise to just experiment and test and learn. I think that's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

Yeah. Um well, and so on to a sort of slightly different question. But so you've um obviously worked with some very iconic brands throughout your career. Um, but have you identified any sort of common theme among the most successful brands that have like navigated disruption really well?

SPEAKER_01 34:12

I mean, I would say a couple. I think first of all, experimentation is like at the heart of what successful brands have done. We mentioned, you know, L'Oreal and um Gymshark, but it's all around, you know, again, this mindset around test and learn and optimize. But then I'd also say very mission-focused, you know, really clear identity around what they stand for. Um, and I think actually, maybe that is an important build to say that keep experimenting, but always have a really clear identity that ladders up, you know, all your experiments are ladding up to a why. Um, and so there's a reason you're doing them. And I think if you have that clear identity and distinct assets to get you there, you have the freedom to continuously test.

SPEAKER_03 35:01

Absolutely. And and I think that that leans quite well into the um, you know, the famous Nike Colin Kaepernick campaign, which was, you know, stand uh stand for something even if it bl even if it means sacrificing everything. Yes. And I think, you know, as you said, if you if you have that, you know, if you if you've put the time in and you've done the homework, you know, when you taking that first step, it can be very, very nerve-wracking. But actually, you know, you're under underneath kind of the idea of, oh, I don't know if I can do this, there is that kind of foundational underpinning of actually I do know what I'm doing. But it's it's cool. It'll be alright. And that's the thing, obviously, like um because I was talking to how uh Molly became involved in working on the podcast, and we we were talking about, and I said, you know, I I I'm new to the world. I I listen to podcasts, but I'm not necessarily and Molly just and had so many kind of new and innovative ideas in that space. And then and then obviously Molly said, Well, I've never recorded a podcast before. But I was like, But you know exactly what you're doing, you know exactly what you're talking about because you listen to lots of and you know, and then off the back of that, I think it's that that taking that bold step actually means that something really exciting can happen. Now, just thinking about things like towards the future, as we kind of draw towards the close of the podcast, you know, a thing that we're always thinking of, I think there's this um there's there's an old adage which, you know, like you kind of if you if you well, it it is that kind of idea of if you do what you've always done, you get what you always got. But actually, I think that's less true. You won't get what you've always got because the ecosystem's changed. And actually, I think it's really interesting to look at new approaches of doing things. And if you were to be given kind of a blank canvas to redesign kind of the digital ecosystem from the grounds up, maintaining the same platforms, but the you know, with new approaches of how you could employ those, what would be the first thing that you'd change? Because I've got to ask you this, because you've got your strategic background, agency side, you've got your media owner background, and now working heavily in the kind of the consultancy space within the AI world, what's the thing where you'd go, Oh, if I could just change that, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 36:58

The workforce.

SPEAKER_03 37:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

The bias, bias in the workforce. I think we think about the digital ecosystem if we think about uh the importance of you know, advertising shapes culture. I really believe advertising shapes culture. It's why I love advertising. It's why I'm in this industry. And if advertising shapes culture, then the people in the room building that should represent culture effectively. And without having them in the room, you risk bias. It may not be intentional, um, but if that if you don't have that voice, and it goes back to ideas go wrong at the start, who's in that briefing process, who's in that room. So I would say, if you know, if there was one thing to change, I would say start with the bias removed from the workforce, represent culture accurately. And we know that diverse teams drive incredible growth, diverse perspectives do. I think that's going to be even more important in the shifts that we're seeing that we've discussed. Um, so I definitely start with the people. Um, you know, let's let's if we believe that advertising shapes culture, let's not wrap our culture around in bias. Let's remove that from the very start.

SPEAKER_03 38:10

Absolutely. And it's an empowering, empowering thing because with it with in you know, in working with that kind of approach, you're then bringing in, you know, it when everybody has a voice in in the discussions and and and in the creation of something, you know, not only is it a lot more fun, because it you know, you get new approaches where actually if you if you're in an echo chamber and you're just hearing the same, you know, the same uh you know approaches but that you've always done and you know always kind of parody packed, but actually getting those outside approaches makes, you know, for really exciting experimental and notational thinking. And when somebody, you know, I think when somebody from who may not have been in the industry long or or contributes something, disproportionately that has a massive impact on their confidence and their capabilities in the years going forward. Because they go, Do you know what? I came up with an idea and somebody believed in me, and now I've been able to do something great off the back of that. So it's a really I think I think that's the the important thing about inclusivity is you know it it it's it enables far better work at the end, you know, because they'll reach people and you know and you s you think of those campaigns that really resonate with people, that really understand people and kind of the human condition and how we all live and exist in our lives and the commonalities of that, you know, they you know they still resonate with us now. Yes. Like they they've go for go for years to years to come. So how I mean moving on to just some uh final kind of uh questions around AI, how do you see AI reshaping kind of the processes of brand building and marketing strategies in the next five and I know it's tough because it's saying, well, what's you know, in the next five years, it's little in the next five minutes. But you know, what would what would you say that you know, how do you see that happen, that shaping it?

SPEAKER_01 39:51

I think, you know, I think there are a few. I think we've spoken a lot about creators. I think that that is going to be even more fascinating because off the ecosystem and because of the combination between the access to creative tools and AI targeting. So I think that's going to be an area to you know keep a close eye on and build on. I do believe that um representation is your competitive advantage when it comes to AI because you are able to understand people, like to your point that you've just said, really understand them in their in all their power. I think that's fascinating, and we've discussed that. I think the other area we haven't discussed that I think will be really interesting to brand building is how brands show up in LLMs, so how brands are showing up in large language models. I think that's fascinating. So, you know, one in five purchases um are being influenced by LLMs at this moment in time. Um, I'm so curious to see what that looks like for you know, what what the data's gonna say for how we have discovered brands over Christmas. Um I'm I think that'd be really interesting. But what I think is fascinating there is the way brands show up and LLMs won't necessarily follow the same rules as for, you know, other touch points. Because if you think about it, you know, and and it's because this is a question I'm getting asked a lot from clients at the moment, you know, how best do I show up within, you know, when people are searching on, you know, on Chat GPT or whatever it might be. Um it's quite problem solution focused. You know, you go in with a very specific challenge. Um, you go in with a very specific need. I am looking for, I don't know, a skincare brand to solve this specific problem within this specific budget. You know, you're very pointed.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 41:51

And so I think for a brand, having content that speaks to that is going to be incredibly important so that they show up within those LLMs. And, you know, I think that what we're seeing, um, latest data actually from Crowd showed that when people are discovering brands on LLMs, they're actually not only choosing new brands, but they're spending more with them. And I think that's interesting, and it does make sense because you're spending more time. You know, you're spending more time and you're really kind of interrogating and questioning. Um, and so how we show up within that space, I think is a really interesting piece for the next kind of, I would say like 18 months um to two years, and optimizing for that space is really interesting. So, yeah, I I would say that, I would say creators and I'd say representation. For me, those are the three big trends that I'm definitely speaking to clients about right now.

SPEAKER_03 42:50

I've never ever really thought about it, because one of the things that we we notice, I mean, particularly from the IPA side, but is the you know, since the rise of kind of a lot of AI-driven uh LLM uh search, essentially kind of where people all go, actually I'll go to ChatGPT before I go to whatever search engine it may be, is it we've noticed a real drop in web traffic, like because people aren't necessarily discovering content in the same way. And so it really means from our perspective that we need to reframe the way in which we position content within the website in order to be able to to show up there. Because I like that idea of you know, if you're talking you know, if you're talking or or you know, conversing with an with an LLM and say choosing a Christmas present and you and it's asking you more questions, actually it's kind of like you know, if you if you go back like a sales associate within a store and they're asking the right questions. Because like, say for example, whatever category it may be, I like I mean, I've when I've bought perfume, for example, I you know, I know what what I like the spell of it, but actually there's so much nuance to all of it, to the selection of a perfume or or whatever it may be. And having somebody who's a guiding light is saying, Well, actually, does the person you're buying for like this thing or this thing? And you know, filtering those things down means that you feel much more, I guess, invested in the purchase. And that and that ties back to what you said about where people are spending more. So that's really, really exciting.

SPEAKER_01 44:11

I think akin to like just a brilliant sales advisor who isn't too sales-y, because they're neutral, aren't they? You know, in in your mind, the way you're speaking to it. And I think the fact that that you're seeing a shoppable layer come through as well plays into this. But it'd be interesting, Simon, for your making sense next year.

SPEAKER_03 44:26

Yeah, it is going to be a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 44:27

You know, will that will that how will that come through?

SPEAKER_03 44:30

I don't know. And it yeah, it's something we're certainly looking at like in terms of making sure we we're accurately measuring uh within touch points and also sort of growing the kind of the measurement of of uh influencer marketing as well. But it's yeah, it's really fascinating. I mean, this is given I've got to say, this has given me so many new angles on things that I that I I feel like I've learned a huge amount just just in that kind of discovery kind of phase of just learning about new approaches there. But that's really, really interesting and exciting, I think. That yeah, that idea of you know, it is a discovery, but also it's a it's a kind of like a curated discovery. And I love, you know, that draws back to kind of the Lily Park um uh example that you were use were talking about earlier. You know, being able to unearth, it's almost like you know, is it like an archaeologist with a fossil brush, you know, just brushing back and then finding, you know, new fascinating details that that can really like change our understanding or and approaches and make them more you know, we do it doesn't have to be that technology makes uh makes things less personal.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 45:33

You know, it it can be it can be actually that real un you know, and that's what really comes through, I think, from the talk we've had today is that you know, rooting AI in the in the idea of representation and understanding of the individual, of the person, and and you know, being able to talk more more uh more confidently in in a in you know in a way that understands you know their challenges and their opportunities as well.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

And I suppose, you know, to the the role that AI is playing around reshaping discovery, whether it is reshaping brands, whether it is reshaping um opportunities to connect with audiences in ways we may have not imagined before, or reshaping discovery of unmet voices. You know, and it comes back to this um point around I think that technology is an incredible engine of opportunity if you point it in that direction. You know, let's point it in that direction. You know, I think this conversation very much has done that, and it shows that it is a growth driver. You know, this isn't just a nice to have, this is actually, you know, representing audiences um or putting a spotlight on unmet stories, you know, drives growth for a reason. Um it's compelling, it's motivating, and it resonates. And so I think there's huge opportunities to to do more of that.

SPEAKER_03 46:50

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

That brings us on quite nicely to um the final question we have really, which is that what um excites you most and also worries you most, we've got a bit of that in there, about um the intersection of AI and creativity in the next, well, we've got a decade here, if that's not too scary.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

Um Well, I would just, you know, what excites me is what we've spoken about. It is, you know, reshaping discovery, it is the opportunity that creative, or the opportunity that creative tools or reshaping how creativity may work, um, I think is is something I'm really excited about. I think that um there is such a huge opportunity here when it comes to creativity and representation and AI working together to solve problems. Um so I think that's the bit I'm incredibly excited about. Um, and I think we've spoken about a lot of examples within that space, so I won't repeat them. Um but I could speak for a very long time, so I won't. Um But yeah, I think there's there's lots of there's lots of great stuff there, but you need to point it in that direction, and that's the key thing. Um what did you say terrifies? I said worries, but terrifies work. If there is a terrifier of being cheaper on it. Worries in that case. You know, I think what worries comes back to my mission. You know, what worries me is if we I think there's an urgency to the moment that we're in right now because of the acceleration. I think it's really important to get the adoption right. I think it's really important to bridge the gap between who's using this technology because it's input that shapes output. Let's build without bias, because that gets us to, you know, that gets us to better outputs. And I think this is the moment that asks us to do that. And I and perhaps it's a moment of courage, perhaps it's a moment of um experimentation as well. Um, but I think, you know, the thing that worries me is if we were just to carry on without getting this bit right, I think it would be a real, a real loss to what's to come. And I think it would really um dampen the opportunities that we're excited about. So for me, the worry is let's solve the problem. I'm a really optimistic person. Um so I want to take that challenge on, and I think that we all have a lot of agency to be able to do that. Um, so it's a worry, but there's a solution there. Um, and that's what I like to focus on.

SPEAKER_03 49:37

Oh, fantastic. And there's so many, honestly, Zara, it's been a really, really inspiring session today, because there's so many new approaches that I'm certainly going to take away from this. And actually, I feel a lot more happy about the world of AI and understand, you know, because it is a scary new world, but actually, like seeing those superpowers or those, you know, real explorative, exciting new approaches. As Caroline Manning said, you know, that Iron Man suit that in you know it's a human inside it, but actually it's enabling you to have that superpower on the outside is really, really exciting. So um obviously, so we've Code for Good Now, where can we find where can people find Code for Good?

SPEAKER_01 50:13

So wwwcodeforgoodnow.com. Like click on that link. Um you can find find me there, and then obviously on social channels, but really, you know, on the site you'll see the different kind of ways of working with the brand. You'll see rep IQ there and and the work we're doing to drive representation. Um, and um, you know, the the training, permission to prompt, how you can get involved in permission to prompt to start bridging this gender gap. Um, and uh yeah, really, really enjoy this conversation. So thank you.

SPEAKER_03 50:45

And also we're gonna we're very excited to announce a bit of a spoiler alert. We've got Zara, who is going to be the keynote speaker at our upcoming Insight Summit, which is on the 5th of March here at the IPA. So all that remains to say is a massive, massive thank you for coming in to speak to us today, Zara. It's I've thoroughly enjoyed it and yeah, so inspired by all of the great work that you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

Well, thank you for having me. Yeah, it's been great. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 51:07

Thank you.