The Effectiveness Files: Little Moons

Joanna Allen, CEO of Little Moons, joins the IPA Effectiveness Files to explore her career working across category-defining brands, Little Moons' growth as a brand and why TikTok is such an important communication channel for them.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Welcome back to the Effectiveness Files with me, Lawrence Green, Director of Effectiveness at the IPA. I'm delighted to be joined today by the Chief Executive of Little Moons, Joanna Allen. This podcast is brought to you in association with our good friends at Tracksuit. Welcome, Joanna.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Lovely to be here. Feels like an agency actually when you step out of the lift. What do I mean by that? Young people, energy, a town hall meeting happening, creativity in some way at the core of what you do, but maybe we can explore that. But before we do, um I would love to know a little bit more about your sort of journey to your current position because I think, especially for agency people and marketeers, it's actually quite reassuring to hear how someone has found a path through marketing to general management. So it'd be great to have a little potted history of the career today.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Yeah, so I grew up at Coke and really learnt my craft there. I spent seven years in the UK business leading some of their global brands but focused on the UK market. And then I had an opportunity to go out to Atlanta, which is where Coke HQ is, and join their global team. And I spent five years in their global business and then two years on their US business. We then came back. I say we, it was, you know, I went out, my husband and I just got married. Um sort of asterisk on that. Dave, my husband's a skateboarder by trade, so that generally is an interesting conversation, maybe not for today, maybe for another day. Um we came back with two kids, a rescue dog and a 40-foot container of you know American-sized furniture. Moved back to the UK to join Unilever, and I led Hellman's as one of their big kind of powerhouse food brands for four years. Did a brief stint in personal care and realized that I am a foodie through and through. Um, but wanted someone who had an experience of running a business that was omnichannel by nature. And you know, a lot of uh of my experience at Coca-Cola was around kind of immediate consumption or on-the-go as we would call it. So I joined Gray's as CEO right at the beginning of lockdown through some crazy COVID years and led that business uh for four years and then joined Little Moons about 18 months ago.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

So I I want to talk about Little Moons, but just because you've been at grey consumer goods companies, as you look back, are there obvious things you learned or carried with you from Coke, UK or US? We'll come back to being married to a skateboarder by trade because you can't say things like skateboarder by trade without piquing my interest. Um and from Grey's obviously at a very at a very different point in the cycle, certainly to Coke and Hellman. So yeah, as you look back, are the are the does it become obvious what you were acquiring along the way?

SPEAKER_00 3:28

So I I feel really privileged that I've always been in businesses where brand has led the commercial agenda of those businesses, and that's different from technology business where product often leads that, and that has definitely been a really important thread all the way through my career. I've also been very lucky to work on what I would call category-defining brands. When you think of fizzy drinks, you think of Coca-Cola, when you think of mayonnaise, you think of Hellman's, and when you think of healthy sacks, you know, a lot of people will think of Greys, and that's certainly the case with Little Moons. There is no more iconic and mochi ice cream brand than ours. So, again, a real privilege to work on those brands, and there's definitely been skills I've learned as I've gone on that journey. And something that I'm then passionate of, but has been more in my latter career than my early career has been on businesses that are truly committed to the triple bottom line and doing business better. And so both businesses actually were on a B Corp journey before I joined, but I took Greys through certification and then re-certification and Little Moons through certification to being a B Corp, which I'm super passionate about, and have then done a lot of sort of advocacy work for the Better Business Act, which is around sort of corporate governance here in the UK. So there's definitely themes of you know really iconic category-defining brands, whether they are big or small, um, and brands driving that commercial agenda, but the opportunity to do that better than just standard business is something that I'm super passionate about.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

So we'll unpick bits of that because uh we're especially interested in the the triple bottom line, um and we haven't been able to explore that with too many people, actually, apart from Douglas at Tony's, for example, probably the most extreme example of a brand built from scratch by TV documentary makers, not marketing people, um, with a very obvious and important purpose. Um were you working on Hellman's before Mayo Gate?

SPEAKER_00 5:37

So I was brought into Unilever to really take a lot of the skills I'd learnt at Coke and apply them to one of their big global food brands and to some extent sort of show Unilever how they could do things differently. So um I brought a very strong design philosophy into the Hellman's brand, and that's a redesign that still is on pack today. I'm incredibly proud of that work. Um, we did the first digital kind of mobile first mini-series, you know, we were totally revolutionising how we did um content creation. Uh we launched vegan and organic when people looked at me like I was bonkers. So um to the extent to I mean Hellman's as a big iconic brand was definitely sometimes chosen as a bit of a poster child. The agenda I drove was you know, fundamentally, we were we talked about a campaign that was called on the side of food, and that was the sort of double entendre was intentional, right? The product is used on the side often of food, it's never consumed on its own, and so that's really important that we're always mindful of what's the the dish that someone is eating our product with, but it was also with a spirit of can we in our own small way but make this a better product because of our commitment to sustainably sourcing out oils. I took my team to chicken farms around the Netherlands because I was like, we should understand the difference between caged chickens and free-range chickens and organic chickens. What does that really mean? And there's definitely a a kind of intimacy that I have always held as something really important to me of how closely are you connected to the people that you serve and the product that you make, that is something I talk to my team about all the time. How intimately do you understand the problem you're solving for? How intimately do you understand the product that we're making? Um that's definitely something my team would, you know, they'd be sitting here nodding and going, yeah, Joanna talks about that a lot.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

So when someone like this sounds like it was after your time on the brand, but when someone like Terry Smith says this is ridiculous, why does a mayonnaise need a purpose beyond being I can't remember what his shorthand was, a sandwich spread. What what's what's your answer? Or what would have been your answer?

SPEAKER_00 7:57

I think my answer would be I'm not sure a big word like purpose is that useful. And actually, uh I've been at an event this morning which is celebrating the 10th anniversary of B Corp in the UK, a thriving community of businesses that are trying to do business better. And there was a conversation actually at the event this morning about you know, is purpose a useful word or has it become a bit hijacked? And I always come back to can I do business better? Because whether that's someone associates a word like purpose with that, or you know, fundamentally it just means that I feel better about the work that I'm doing as a commercial leader, I think that matters more than whether or not a sort of big fat word like purpose gets attached to brand agenda.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I mean, I find it impossible to read the Better Business Act premise and not agree with it. I mean, yeah. It seems like a no-brainer to me, but I have I've never sat in your shoes. So um tell me all about Little Moons and and maybe full disclosure, maybe the brand isn't yet as well known as you might like it to be. So if you could start with the basics, that would be great.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Sure. So when people hear about the brand, often actually is one of the first things they hear about is the fact that we had a viral moment on TikTok at the beginning of lockdown, and that manifested in lots of people at a time when the only place you could go was a grocery store, going to what was often sort of called out as Big Tesco in search of little moons. And that, you know, that was a moment in time, it's sort of it's part of actually a shared mythology of little moons and of TikTok. We we talk about it as two businesses together, but actually the business was started far earlier than that. Um Howard and Vivian, brother and sister, who started the business originally, grew up in a in their parents' bakery, so they had always been exposed to kind of an entrepreneurial food environment, and they saw an opportunity to take the kind of concept of mochi but make it more accessible by filling it with delicious ice cream, you know, versus the traditional kind of red bean paste. And their first customers were also not probably the ones that people assumed they were to be. Um, actually, some of our earliest customers were very high-end restaurants like Nobu, Sushi Samba, um, and from there into sushi kios like itsu and yo. And that's sort of an unusual route to tread when you think about kind of challenger food brands, because they often do Whole Foods and then Accado and then Waitros and then you know grocery stores, and and actually the fact that we still have a really important business through our sushi kiosk partners is part of the legacy of how this business was born. Um and and again, if you if I think about you know, this is a product, and I say this to Vivian and Howard sort of with the with the most graciousness that I can manage, but I you know, this is a weird product, and that you know that will put some people off. And so the benefit for us, particularly in the business that we have through our sushi partners, is actually you've got a consumer who's already kind of predisposed to that cuisine, and getting them to kind of consider us and purchase us with a you know it's a two-pack product, so it's it's a smaller product to try, is actually a really important strategic route to market, not just a channel for us, but actually a really strategic part of our business.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And having just eaten some of the new product, I think it's going to work for you. Um what where does the business find itself today then? How would you describe the the moment or the or the from to that you're trying to pull off now or have tried to execute in the last 18 months?

SPEAKER_00 11:49

So this is really a gangly teenager, and I love businesses at that stage because you've got still so much opportunity in front of you, and you've got to make sure that sort of the things that grew as the business grew sort of quite organically, you've got to make sure that that's sort of on firm foundations. So over the last sort of 18 months that I've been enrolled, we've we've thought a lot about what's the category that we operate in, and I have sort of engaged with the business to talk about, you know, we're not we don't position ourselves as a mochi business, we position ourselves as a frozen snacking business, and that changes your point of reference like really significantly, right? The the consumer job to be done, the shopper job to be done, like those things really, really change if that's your context. So a gangly teenage business, but with so much opportunity, because as you said, there are still many people who don't know us. Um, although we have probably a broader geographical footprint than people would imagine, we're in 38 markets internationally is about 60% of our revenue, so it you know, we've got a big footprint internationally outside of the UK. We're still a baby brand in many of those markets, and so getting people to be, you know, in some respects the classic marketing funnel aware of us and then considering us, and then we know that when people try us, then generally they're they're big fans because the product's delicious. Um, but definitely there is um the classic, I would say, marketing jobs to be done of how do I get people to to be aware of the brand, um, and we use channels that are particularly important to us given our um our consumer base. So TikTok is one of the most important channels that we communicate through, as well as more traditional media types, uh, and then you know, our focus is very much how do I help people overcome maybe some of the barriers to trying the brand. Um, and if I think about the campaign that we launched this summer um called A Little Something, that's all about actually just helping people think about what's the moment I might choose to bring this brand into my life. I'm a I'm a big believer, and I guess that's a a little bit of my kind of coke um heritage of you know, tell people when you want them to consume this product. Like life is complicated for all of us enough. If if as a brand I can take one thing less, you know, off your plate to think about, it's you know, here's the moment that I want you to to enjoy our product. And you know, I'd love to share more about even sort of the thoughts behind where that campaign started.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Yeah, well let's get into that in a few moments' time, but I'm always humbled when I sit opposite people who actually have sort of the most grown-up job in an organization, beyond beyond whatever their marketing skill set was, and not that you set it to one side, but suddenly you're also responsible for a whole heap of other things. Forget the funnel, um, like sourcing. Um, to paint a little picture on that because that's a side of the business that our listeners probably don't see as readily when they receive a brief or executing for TikTok or TV or whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Yeah, so I guess the the starting point for me when I think about how do we think about the sourcing of our ingredients that go into our product is the thing that you know I've learned over you know what is decades working in the food industry is the thing that people care the most about is whether the product tastes delicious. And if it doesn't, then they will never come back again, right? Even if they'll give you the generosity of trying you once, they won't come back. And so understanding the ingredients that go into our product really intimately, again, use that word intentionally, is really important because that is the thing that gives me confidence on am I going to be able to make a quality product that's gonna make people go, this is a brand I love and a product that I find delicious, kind of coming back time and again. What's exciting again when I sort of take the spirit of as a B Corp or as a as a person advocating for better business is the opportunity to think about how we source and and the kind of ripple effect that we can have. So for me, building a better business isn't just about the better business that I want to build inside my four walls, but it's about the opportunity to influence businesses beyond ours. So we did we've done two big projects earlier this year, one around the mango that we source and one around the cocoa that we source. And through the partnerships that we've created with companies who share our values, we have been able to make improvements to those farming practices at the same time as either maintaining or even improving the quality of those ingredients. So it's a really like I love that bit of my job. It's it's a great uh area uh to explore and and be curious about.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

I can tell sitting opposite you, so because this is just audio, you you you you're a smiler generally, and that's the biggest smile that today is talking about sourcing mangoes and coconuts, which that's I like hearing that from this brand. So let's talk about the brand then, and maybe this is a greedy question, but can you go from like the name and the founders all the way through to how the brand is currently kind of contemplated and communicated?

SPEAKER_00 17:21

Is that is that too much of a leap, or can you so I feel again really lucky that Vivian and Howard, who founded the business, are still very present. Um, when I led Gray's, sort of the original team had um, you know, all sort of moved on to Pastures New. And so whilst Howard and Vivian aren't kind of operationally involved in the business day to day, you know, I'm on the phone to them, we're WhatsApping, you know, we're catching up over. Have you seen this? Have you seen that? Um, which for me is the privilege, right? They've they crafted this business over you know 14-15 years. And and I guess the philosophy, and I had this as well when I was a marketeer, was you know, I get the privilege of leading a business or a brand for a period of time, you and your responsibility is to nurture it such that you leave it in a better place than the place at which you inherited it. And to be able to do that with founders who are kind of on hand is is brilliant. I also have to applaud, you know, they are generally up for most things. So we had, for example, Vivian lip syncing to four non-blondes for a TikTok video last you know, a couple of weeks ago, and and so they're just they're so up for it as well, um, really in service of the brand. So uh yeah, it's they're they're great pair to have around the business.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

Yeah, well, I I I think that that joyfulness comes through in everything from the name itself to the packaging to the comms, at least the comms that I've seen. So um when you contemplate brand investment, let's be let's be commercial for a moment. What's the context for those sorts of conversations and what does payback look like when you're thinking of using agencies or just buying media of whatever stripe?

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

What does that look like here?

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Yeah, so this is a business where we have ambitions to grow and to outpace the market, and uh that's partly because of the potential that we see in this brand. Um, I'm very clear on there are a set of particular tasks that we need to do with this brand, and that doesn't happen by accident, right? You have to invest, whether that is people or money or resources in general, you've you've got to you know pay your way to be able to undertake those tasks. So the work we've done over the last 18 months is to get really clear on what are those jobs that we need the brand to do and are we doing them as effectively as we possibly can. And so that has prompted new creative work under a campaign called A Little Something, and um that's then been deployed in some of our key markets the UK, Germany, Australia, um, where we've taken that that kind of creative concept, it's an out-of-home piece of creative into those markets. And again, it's been very much anchored in how do I tell people when to eat it. The thing that I think is delightful about that campaign is that it is so rooted in intimacy with the people that we've listened to as they've talked about the moments that they eat and enjoy little moons. It would have been really easy for us to say it's a little something for when you're sitting on the couch in the evening. But we didn't talk about it like that because they don't talk about it like that. And actually, I think we've barely scratched the surface of that campaign because our opportunity is actually just to keep making that that language even more particular to the people who love us and who are big fans of us. Um, and we've got plans over the next year to think about you know how does that manifest on TikTok. And then, as I said, TikTok is a really important channel for us, and it's it's one where I've definitely invested time to upskill with the TikTok team on my understanding of that platform, how that platform is going to evolve because it will constantly change, and recognising that that isn't a platform where you just shout into the void because A, that won't drive engagement, and B, it'll probably cost you a shed load because actually you're you're kind of paying for eyeballs as opposed to earning them yourself. So, some really exciting work kind of in the pipe in terms of how we think about you know what are the communities that we want to be involved in within TikTok. Sometimes they're obvious ones, you know. We absolutely want to be involved with those people who are talking about you know new news within food and beverages, but equally, how do we end up in communities where it's unexpected? Um, so when we did the brand redesign launch, you know, we worked with creators who uh took the manifestation of our creative and design world into rugs. Into nail art, into cakes. And that just gives the brand an opportunity to extend into communities that probably wouldn't happen naturally. I think to your question of you know, how hard-earned is that uh choice around investment, again, a natural challenge, I think, for businesses of our stage of maturity is that you always have more opportunities than you've got resources to go after. I've tried to ensure that we we kind of lay some bets as opposed to sort of sprinkle fairy dust everywhere. And so we're really intentional about, you know, we've got a couple of markets that we're really backing. Um and so we look at that investment really as a driver of our commercial success, alongside other commercial levers, and you know, I think it's really important that we do look at it in the context of what's our trade investment, you know, what's our field force um resource that's going to help pull the brand through. Um but yeah, it's absolutely uh an enabler to the commercial ambitions that we have, and I guess that is a bit the benefit of having a marketeer by trade sitting in the CEO shoes.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

Yeah, but likewise it's helpful for us to hear that it competes with other investments, and of of course it does. Um we tend to find our way to C-suite leaders who believe in brand and therefore back that with cash rather than just chat. But um I think I hear time and time again, especially from gangly teenagers, that choices that mean that you are kind of overcommitting against big opportunities rather than um spread your budget too thinly is sounds obviously smart. You you've used the word intimacy a couple of times, and I think at one point you said I used that word with intentionality, which is one of my favourite phrases. What why? Why is that so why is that so important? You're the first person I've sat opposite who's used intimacy rather than customer as a as a premise. What is it because of the product? Is it because of the brand? Is it because of you?

SPEAKER_00 24:14

I think it's a bit of a personal philosophy. And where does that come from? Well, I I think I'm a naturally curious person. It's kind of a bit my my way of operating. And for me, what intimacy gives me is a a kind of real closeness to the problem that I'm helping a consumer to solve. Because I think the reality there are very few problems that aren't solved already. The value I create as a business is I solve it better than somebody else does. And so if I only ever understand that problem, as a consumer might define it, at a very surface level, I'm I'm only ever going to be as good as sort of how how knowledgeable I am with that problem. And so for me, like the the best investment of my time is going and spending time in people's houses, looking in their kitchen cupboards, going rummaging around their freezers, hearing them talk, you know, so beautifully about you know our brand and our product, but particularly kind of what role it's uh it plays in their lives. That for me, as I said, as as a com I talk about myself as a commercial beast, um, that's how I create value, is by understanding that it gives me a competitive advantage by understanding it more intimately than somebody else does.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

And is it uh I I think that's incredible, but is it also particularly important for this brand? Because I'm gonna caricature it even more now as a sort of an uh an unknown product in in the freeze aisle, um especially now set up within snacking, big category. Those all feel things to me that put a premium on really understanding it. Is that also a reason apart from your own curiosity, is there something about the brand that necessitates that?

SPEAKER_00 26:20

I think what you're pointing to is you know, part of the mandate I'm trying to drive is a habit change. And that's hard, right? As as marketeers and as business leaders, we know it's always way easier. If all you're trying to do is still share, much easier task. Um I'm not trying to do that. I'm I'm trying to change habit. I'm trying to get people who currently don't walk down the freezer aisle to think about walking down the freezer aisle as their destination for purchasing snacking, and then when they're in their home, instead of going to what everybody has in every single house of a snack cupboard, a snack box, a snack drawer, I'm asking them to think about a different destination for where they might source their snacks from. But that's also what makes it exciting because if I can crack that habit change, then there's so much headroom then for growth that you know in our wildest dreams will we get our fair share of that. And so to your question, I think intimately understanding the need to drive that habit change will be important because it's not just a share steel gamble that we're taking on.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

And where does this you should obviously um use maximum discretion to answer this, but where where where does this end? So you're a gangly teenager with lots of sealing room ahead, you're in more markets than I realised. I I think the US very recently, perhaps you can touch on that. But what what what does the end game look like for you or for Howard and Vivian or colleagues or the food category?

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Yeah, exactly. You said there's so much headroom, and our opportunity immediately in front of us is how do we continue to make sure that this brand is associated as a snack brand more than a mochi brand. And that gives us opportunities and license to take this brand into new formats, new um destinations in the store, um, which is exciting, and that's that's definitely on our, you know, certainly fairly short-term uh runway, where we can see, you know, the brand is already in, as I said, sushi kiosks, we're in the freezer aisle uh in the back of store, we're often in sushi counters in a grocery store. This is a brand, I think, once people appreciate what we bring to categories, has got license to go into more places. And when you talk about the opportunity as a frozen and chilled snacking business, like there's so much runway and plenty for us to go after.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

Um campaigns, let's let's be uh um old-fashioned and start with the ads. Uh you talked about a little something. Where where where does that come from? Is that is that a classic in insight out execution or is it a turn of phrase that I'm always interested in where ideas actually crystallise. So where tell me about the genesis of that form?

SPEAKER_00 29:22

So it comes from uh literally how people talk about the brand and the experience of eating it. And again, it doesn't matter which country you're talking to consumers in or how mature the brand is, if you find someone who's tried Little Moons, they will talk about oh, it's that little something that I have. You know, I've had dinner, I might be sitting down and watching, you know, my favourite show on streaming, or I might be catching up on kind of what's been happening in my social feeds. It's that little something that just gives me that little sweet moment kind of after towards the end of the end of the day. Or it's that little sweet treat that I might have after I've had sushi for lunch, and I just want something in that afternoon moment. So it it comes from just real language that people have used. I think what's really powerful about it is it it connects to a really clear um marketing job, which is I need to be able to help more people understand when to eat our product because they understand, and particularly if they've tried us, they understand how delicious the product is. So I I don't actually need to do that much of a job around you know, this is our passion for mango, and it's got this potency around the flavour, which comes from the mango puree, which is delicious. I don't actually need to do that job, that's not the most important. And I think again, as you know, for people listening to this, when they think about the sort of hierarchy of challenges to tackle, you know, but I always believe you know, marketing communication is powerful when it's trying to say one thing, and as soon as you try and say get it to say one and another and something else, then it it loses its kind of punch. And so a little something comes from that sense of I I just want to tell people when to enjoy it. Now we've done that, I think, in a very little moonzy way because we've done it with real intimacy with how people talk about the brand and the moment that they enjoy it, and we've done it in recognition of uh you know all the TikToks that tell us when people are enjoying our brand. But that's where the power of that kind of uh and the origins of that creative work come from.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

And Ehrenberg Bass would like it because it uses the word little. I actually like it because it's quite a modest thought. If you I mean I like words, so I always inspect end lines and things a bit too forensically. Um but I like I like it, it feels like it knows its place, uh which is I'm gonna be contrary here. It's quite an uncoca-cola in a funny way.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Um and and I think it talks to a real truth, which is people love little moons because of the fact that it's portion controlled. That is one of our assets that is that puts us apart from particularly some of the other ice cream players in the market. Um, it is the fact that I can have one. Quite often they won't just have one, but the the idea that they can they could if they wanted to. And so it also talks to that real truth of the reason why people really love us in some instances because it's a portion, and that makes them feel they don't have to sort of have that. We talk about the visceral joy of kind of the ice cream category, but so often that's paired with this sort of feeling of guilt, and actually, when something's portion controlled and we pack a punch, right? We're not sort of a subdued little amount, we're uh like punchy flavours are part of our hallmark. Um and so it's that sense of it's it is just a little something.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

That is quite so I'm sitting opposite to you thinking that is classic revelation because I I know as someone who has bought and enjoyed Little Minstrel and long time, I know portion control is part of why I like it, as well as my dinner party guests like it or whatever, but I hadn't connected that to a competitive set, let alone a you know an endline or an organizing idea for the business. Um so I like that. Um tell me lastly, if you like, um we we opened up by talking uh broadly about B Corp accreditation and how important that is to you personally and to the business. I see that logo on pack. I'm probably in a customer cohort who cares. There are other people who don't who would say accreditation is costly or just a badge or whatever. Tell me cast some light, especially having been there this morning, on on why that's an important part of the mix, even if it's not spoken or part of a consumer pitch.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Yep. So I appreciate B Corp not least because it demands that you strive for better. So the standards evolve for anyone who maybe is a bit less familiar with B Corp. Um, you know, there are a set of standards that if you want to become an accredited B Corp, you have to meet, and those standards change over time, they get harder. And so, as a mandate for make you know, not ever sitting on your laurels and continuingly improving your business, B Corp becomes a really pragmatically useful framework for kind of judging whether or not I'm making strides across the business and across all aspects, right? Not just thinking about um you know a particular area of branding or of sourcing, but literally every aspect of how we run the business to some extent comes under scrutiny when we go through that process, and anyone who's gone through it understands the rigour, and with the new standards that have just been released, it's only going to get harder. For me, there are there will be a set of consumers who care, and so for them, B Corp is a degree of reassurance on the side of our pack. I also know it's really important to the people who choose to come and work at Little Moons. And so it's a reason we've attract great talent, it's a reason we retain great talent, and it's also a reason why suppliers are choosing to work with us. And again, I go back to I think the power of B Corp is when you think about building your business better, not just for the business that you control, but actually the businesses that you partner with, um, as you think about all of the things that it takes to make a business happen. So I'm I'm a believer and uh and happy to continue to advocate for it.

SPEAKER_01 36:18

Yeah, we're we're believers too. I've got a very specific last question and a very general last question if you've got time. The very specific one arises because it's something we're paying more and more attention to, which is can you can you ever, have you ever managed to size the contribution that TikTok or an influencer has made to the business? Can can you see it? Do you do you do you try and size it, or do you just think this is this is a wave of goodwill that seems to be building the brand's fame? That's the specific one, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

I don't know that there is enormous value that I'm going to be gained by trying to do that. I think the power comes from the brand being able to participate, not just broadcast, but participate in conversations and communities that are beyond us, just as I said, sort of shouting into the void. I'm also a believer of try things and don't expect them all to succeed. And I think if if you work with creators, you know, you have to recognise that there are some pieces of content that you know seem to kind of, you know, a little fire gets lit underneath them, and then other ones that you thought might have really gained traction don't. And and I think if you become too neurotic over everything needs to hit a certain level of you know, engagement is probably the metric we care the most about. I think you could you could quite possibly drive yourself mad. I think it's more valuable to go, okay, over the course of the last couple of weeks, when we think about the creators that we've worked with, on average have we driven up our engagement rate? Yes, no. Okay, what do we take from that? What have we learned? And then let's take that forward.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, certainly what we're finding, shining a light on it on behalf of the industry, is that it is simply less predictable. Uh, and an art that is probably underappreciated. Interested that your ex-employer is bigging up their investment, and I I hope a whole heap of skill and art is brought to that investment, not just investment, which seems to be the first sort of um corporate announcement they've spent more money. Um, whereas what we're finding is sometimes it's spent incredibly well, and I mean against ROI, not just engagement, and sometimes it is just a complete flop in a way that TV, for example, can't be. The last question is is the unfair one, which is what you're the chief exec, so you're ultimately responsible for everything. What what keeps you awake at night?

SPEAKER_00 39:07

When you ask about kind of what keeps me up at night, uh, and I do think this is a little bit of a hallmark of a female CEO rather than a male CEO, and I'm I'm a passionate advocate for female talent in this role. We're still a minority, and that shouldn't be the case. But I do think as women we are potentially more human-centered in our leadership, and so the things that keep me awake are about making sure that my team feel like they're set up to do the best job that they can, that you know, the barriers that are stopping them from realizing their dreams are ones that we're tackling. It's that sense of, you know, do people feel like they can genuinely contribute their their very best? It might not be a sort of specific thing that keeps me awake at night. I'm lucky that I'm a good sleeper, so there's not much that does. But that's definitely, you know, when I think about the the challenges that rumble around in my head, that's that's one that's hard.

SPEAKER_01 40:12

You you've just exposed me as a male leader, I think. Because I think you'll well, I think you might be other people touch on that, but no, no one has ever answered that question as fully as being my my pi not my people keep me awake because that's something else altogether. Um the thing that I'm alert to is culture and their ambitions, and actually in the end, I mean I remember this from having my own business, their lives as well. That strikes me as a great place to end this conversation. Joanna, thank you so much for your insight and inspiration. And thank you for listening to this episode of the Effectiveness Files. Stay tuned for further episodes coming soon.