IPA Podcast
The IPA is the professional body for advertising, media and marketing communications agencies in the UK. We represent over 300 agencies, which are responsible for 85% of UK advertising and communication spend.
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IPA Podcast
The IPA Making Sense Podcast: Ellie Nicolaou
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True’s Ellie Nicolaou joins the IPA Making Sense podcast to explore what the media landscape looks like from a Gen Z perspective, the benefits of non-traditional routes into the industry and what agencies can do to best nurture young talent.
Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of the IPA Making Sense podcast, where we'll be making sense of the complicated things in advertising and media today, and hopefully just making them a little bit more fun. I'm your host, Simon Fraser, and today with my co-host Molly Bruce, we have an incredible uh guest joining us, Ellie Nicolao. So Ellie is an account executive at True, and she's also a recent graduate of the Bauer Apprenticeship Scheme. Sound effect incoming. Fantastic. Now Ellie writes a regular column for the IPA newsletter, which is called Gen Z Unfiltered, which charts her experiences within the industry. And recently she also led a panel at the IPA Planning and Strategy Summit. So in this episode, we're going to be exploring the non-traditional routes into the advertising industry, how agencies can nurture Gen Z talent and grow in the process, and how agencies can also harness new opportunities for growth in order to flourish in the years ahead. So a big welcome, Ellie. Thank you for coming on.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for having me. Super excited to um get started.
SPEAKER_00Fantastic. Well, let's get straight into it, Ellie. So, I mean, one of the things that's really been characterized in what you've talked about in your columns is kind of taking the non-traditional route to into advertising. Um and it's really fascinating because I, you know, like many people, you know, we go through the standard issue, you go to university, you come out of university in the nicest way possible. You don't really know what you want to do, and then in some way, shape, or form you end up in advertising. But actually, you've gone through the Bauer Apprenticeship scheme, which sounds absolutely fantastic. Um needless to say, you haven't come out with a huge amount of student debt as well, which is always a good thing. Um, but yeah, you've taken that non-traditional route into advertising, starting with the B Tech and the apprenticeship rather than university. I mean, what motivated you to choose that path and you know, how has it shaped your perspective of the industry as well?
SPEAKER_02So I'd say firstly, choosing a B Tech. I feel like there's a lot of stigma around um doing one, but there wasn't actually any A levels that I wanted to do that badly. So I thought, why not best use like this opportunity to do a business B Tech? Um, I feel like you learn everything you need to run your own business, to maintain a business, um, onboarding, you know, sort of employees and things like that. So that really stood out for me. Um, and then I sort of really, really enjoyed that. It was a lot of coursework. I sort of prefer to do coursework versus exams. Um, it puts you under a lot less pressure. And I do enjoy writing as well, as you can probably tell. Um, but yeah, so I did my apprenticeship and then I sort of didn't really know what I wanted to do. Um I think I wanted to go into marketing, but I wasn't a hundred percent sure of that. Um, so then I started just applying to general marketing roles, seeing what was out there, applied to over a hundred apprenticeships. Um, I still applied to uni as well as like a backup, um, if all didn't sort of work out. Um, but yeah, apprenticeship was my main sort of way to get into the industry. Um, and then I I guess a mutual contact let me know that uh true was hiring for an account executive apprentice. Um so I guess in this case it's not about what you know, it's about who you know. Um and I just went for it. I didn't really have any clue of what an account executive was at the time. Um but yeah, I sort of just thought this might be my sort of one opportunity to get something that's gonna lead me to it to a good path. Um and yeah, that's kind of how I got into it. And I guess for me it wasn't I didn't want to go to uni because I didn't really want to fit in. I didn't care about fitting in. And I guess I can be a social butterfly in like a different sort of light, um, one that doesn't involve drinking or doing drugs, and I feel like that is what a lot of the university experience involves. Um, so I'm sort of happy to just go to the gym and have like nice dinners with my friends, go for walks. Um, so yeah, that's sort of there was no pressure in that sense, and I think like my my family was supportive of me doing that. Um, and then in terms of like my perspective on the industry as well, I didn't really have one when I first came into it because I I didn't necessarily know about advertising. Um, but I think now that I've discovered that B2B has so much potential to be creative, I think it it is very different to B2C. Um, and I often look at B2C campaigns and feel really, really inspired. But I do think there's potential for B2B in if if your ads are going in the right spaces and if your clients are willing um to sort of put that trust in you as an agency and get things out the door um that are going to change change people's minds on that.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And before we come on to the next next part, I mean one of the things that I've you know really, really struck me w you know when we first uh started talking some time back, is you know, you're an incredible writer, you know, and and it's that, you know, this is this is I think that that's the sort of a skill that you can't necessarily teach it. It's just that communication capability that you have. And I remember when we were talking um uh you know a little a little while back, and you said about, you know, you were talking about say the professions that your mum and your dad had. And I think it's remind me of thinking your dad's a barber, and it's your mum teaches yoga.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, Pilates, Pilates. Pilates, Pilates.
SPEAKER_00And I think, you know, the one thing that struck me about that is you know, the skills that you that you kind of derive from those those careers is you're able to actually I think you're able to really understand so many different types of people, you're under able to understand the entire kind of gambit of the population, the entire and also interact with people in varying different ways and you know and communicate really effectively. And that really came through from uh the initial LinkedIn post that you did, which was about, I believe, the it was either the Insight Summit or the Media Planning and Strategy Summit. Because I was reading through and you know, we'd see things pop up on LinkedIn, and then I s I I read your post, and it was the best kind of concise but also very human uh in the writing. And then on off the back of that, of course, you started uh I asked you to write a piece for the IPA newsletter, which naturally went down an absolute storm. Um and uh you know our comms team were over the moon, and then since then you've taken on the the regular piece. And across the board, just that humanistic element I think is so important, and I think that that's something that real life experience g teaches you, but actually, in some ways, and from personal experience, academic instruction sometimes makes you less human and more kind of structured in the way in which you respond to things, and actually I think that that's that's such an important skill.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think I think for me I've always sort of been in a setting where I'm constantly communicating with people, and as someone who genuinely didn't know anything about advertising at the start, for me it was like a question to myself how can I make what I sound human to people who are maybe in the same situation as me, but also for those who maybe do have a bit more experience in the industry and they can take something away as well from that. Um, so it's trying to find the right language to use and just yeah, being yourself, I guess, when writing, um, not overcomplicating anything.
SPEAKER_00And I think that's the thing. I mean, with the making sense part, it's about kind of making like the stuff that is needlessly overly complicated, actually just quite straightforward. Because the reality is like, and I think that that's what comes across um, you know, in the writing and and as well in the discussion you had at the recent media planning strategy summit, um, is you know, most people actually find stuff really complicated, but most people aren't confident enough to go, I don't know what's good, you know.
SPEAKER_02You shy away from saying anything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, yeah, that that's really fantastic.
SPEAKER_03It was um it's interesting because I did take an a more traditional route into the industry, and actually the skills that you've been talking about that you learn from doing an app taking the apprenticeship route in are so valuable in a way that I feel like is often more applicable to actually like the day-to-day life of working within, whether it be an agency or for me here at uh the IPA. But I can definitely resonate also with you're saying you did like a h over a hundred applications, like the entry-level job market is it's a rough, it's a rough. It's a rough place to be there. Yeah. Um but I mean, the one thing, despite maybe not having those not sort of learning those skills that you've learned at apprenticeship, I suppose coupling the difficulty of job hunting with also the stigma that you've mentioned around BTEX, that must have been quite a hard challenge, I think, to overcome. Is is there any advice that you'd give people sort of seeking out that similar alternative route?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'd probably say just start applying to any sort of job early on, whether whether it's something you want to do or something not, it m you you know, you you come out of school, whether that's college or sixth form, and you don't actually know what you want to do. And a lot of people, like you need that trial and error to be able to know. So I'd say start applying early on, make connections as well, like try and spend uh over 50% of your time perfecting your CV and sharing it on LinkedIn, making connections um with people who you might you might want to be associated with or companies you might want to be associated with. And yeah, just just don't be shy to like, you know, write posts, like post them, engage with other people's, put comments um on their posts as well. So yeah, just a mixture of all of that, I think. Just putting yourself out there and not being scared to do so. Um, because I guess you'll end up somewhere where you want to be in the end, um, no matter sort of the journey is taken you on.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think that's it's in like I think LinkedIn, there's I mean, for me, even there's like a lot of fear around the LinkedIn post because it's like, what kind of persona are you like supposed to put out there? Um, and even like trying to work out that voice, because you can read so many other people's LinkedIn posts, and it's like, okay, it feels very performative. Like, what's what what kind of like do I how much can I be myself? Like, what's the line between like a normal social media post maybe and then like this, which is sort of career focused? Um, but I would say, I mean, from the posts that I've read and also the posts like Simon was talking about that then like led to your Gen Z unfiltered column, you're very good at like you have your clear voice. Was that something that I mean, I suppose when you first started at True, it was probably was that a challenge to find your voice as like, yeah, the youngest person in the room is something you've also touched on, I think.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think for me it was really difficult because a lot of the people I were work were work was working with um were over, say, 25, and I came in when I was 18. Um, so that's quite a significant, I guess, age gap. And they are talking about things like families and having their own house and just adult stuff. Um, whereas I was just still like I still live with my parents, I was just focused on like my health and fitness and lifestyle. Um, and I just wanted to start working, start, you know, getting as much experience as I can. So I guess it's hard to find that balance when talking to older people. But I think for me it was using that to my advantage when speaking to them. So offering my perspective as a younger person on things, um, even when talking to clients as well, how I would view it as a Gen Z, um, how and how that would come across if they were sort of planning to create a campaign or or anything like that. So yeah, I think it's definitely been hard, but I'd, you know, use it as your advantage if you are young.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I suppose it's like what some people could see as a weakness, you can flip that into a strength. And that's there's no point pretending that you know everything because clearly you no one knows everything when they first start, but by sort of showing your areas that you don't know so that you can learn, but then also showing those areas that you do you have the advantage of like a Gen Z perspective, for example, within like campaigns that might be more tailored towards them or something.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And I and I think that um, as you said, the that willingness to just learn all the time is so important. Because actually a lot of like the most important on-the-ground learning you do actually, even if you go through a traditional university degree, you know, th there's an old phrase that you don't really hear so much these days, but it's all the gear, no idea. You know, I don't know if you pick if you hear still hear that, but it's kind of like you come out of university and you're like, oh great, I've you know, I'm gonna walk into a job, this is gonna be really easy, and then you go, Oh, well, there's thousands of other people who had a very, very similar position. And actually the ones who are getting the jobs are not the necessarily the ones who have the highest level of degrees, the ones who've who've say done an internship, or they've got some background experience that just really sets that aside, and I think that's such a valuable, um, yeah, valuable thing to have. So thinking about, I mean, talking about kind of new emerging technologies and you know, that kind of experimentational approach, I mean, how do you see this is something that you know we're talking a lot of everybody's talking about AI, we've got to talk about AI, but how do you find that that's shaping the way kind of creative teams say within true are responding to briefs, you know, things like generating ideas with clients. And how do you also keep the you know what I I see as kind of your your most vital uh characteristic, that human element in there? How do you keep that alive within that?
SPEAKER_02So I think for me personally, before sort of going on how to how creative teams um use AI um with clients, I think I've I'm trying to learn how to utilize AI as much as possible without purely asking it to do something for me. And I think that's what people initially do because they want to get things done faster, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna be better. Um, so it's about asking AI prompts like give me critical feedback on X, Y, and Z versus generate a better version of this for me, and then you purely copy and pasting that version, sharing it out to whoever. Um, so yeah, I think it's about asking questions that allow you to learn at the same time and enhance your skill set rather than being heavily reliant on it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, and even with AI, just just trying to say you're going for an interview, asking AI to be your interviewer, asking them to be your examiner or your colleague if you have a problem arise. Um, I think that's a nice way to sort of frame it versus, you know, relying on AI for everything. Um, because I I even find myself, you know, slipping into asking it about every single thing, even down to enhance this email for me. But then I actually go back and re like completely scrap that email and write my own email because I trust myself and I trust that I'm gonna, you know, do a good job of writing that email. So it's I guess it's also about not, you know, becoming obsessed with everything being perfect, and and you know, that's what AI feeds feeds into. Um, so yeah, just trusting yourself, like giving myself one look over or two look looks over an email and then just sending it out, um, versus yeah, using AI. Um, and then in terms of how we're applying it, um, like uh how creative teams use it with clients, I think for us, um, clients either don't want to use AI at all for their campaigns or they're trying to create a campaign that promotes their AI services. So I guess there's no sort of in between. Um, we have been trying to use AI when sort of pitching to clients for mock-ups and things that maybe take um more, I guess, time and effort than than is needed. Um, so I guess that's sort of one way we've been trying to use it. Um and yeah, encouraging everyone else in the team to enhance their skill set versus become heavily reliant on it. Just just exploring it. Um, because that's what's gonna sort of keep us ahead of the curve in the long term, I think.
SPEAKER_00And I love I love that angle of um, you know, the the the the conflict between explorative use and exploitative use, and actually like you know, in invariably you'll hear uh you know organizations will be saying, Oh, well, we're looking to make X efficiencies, cut, you know, cutting costs, cutting times by utilising AI. And actually, what I love about what you've just said there is you're you're going, well, it's not about just getting things d done quicker, it's about getting stuff done better. And it's about that I love that learning approach of just being of applying it for kind of critical thinking and critical approaches. Now, I mean, in terms of moving on to the sort of next areas that I wanted to talk to you about with attention spans evolving, I know that's been something that you've talked about within like the panel that you did at the recent planning and strategy summit. How do you approach kind of developing creative work that earns attention and also feels meaningful, especially for for say Gen Z audiences?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think um in terms of that, I think we need to be putting ourselves in in the body of Gen Z, in the mind of Gen Z versus thinking about what they'd sort of like. I think it's about two main things, shareability and how something looks, so aesthetic. Um, which seems quite vague, but I genuinely think that if you can imagine your campaign being shared by Gen Z for the right reasons, you will gain a whole lot of benefit. Um, your your campaign will be shared, you know, far and wide, whether that's on TikTok or on Instagram, or even if it's an out-of-home ad, you will see that being posted on LinkedIn by sort of the younger audiences. So I think it's about putting yourself in their shoes and and looking at things in a different light, um, you know, for shareability and and how it visually looks.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. I remember something that somebody said to me years ago when like in terms of like communicating to people, is always always empathize, don't sympathize. So when somebody, you know, if somebody comes to you, like if you're working particularly in like a sales background or something like that, if you if you empathize, then you go, right, okay, I'm putting myself in this this audience, this person's position, I can understand the challenges that they've got, and I can also understand where this could be an opportunity, this product could be an opportunity. If you sympathise with them, they go, Oh yeah, well, you know, money's a bit tight at the moment. You just go, Oh, yeah, I'm really sorry. But and you're kind of reinforcing a negative stereotype there that's that's kind of uh so that empathy approach and and just Yeah, I think that that's something that actually w is quite missed as well when when when discussions are had around Gen Z. It's putting yourself in the position of you know, young people you know, making their way in the industry, you know, facing increasing costs, house prices, you name it, and all of these individual challenges. Um now you've also uh you know another thing that you've really highlighted is the importance of kind of experimentation and stepping outside of your comfort zones. Um, you know, can you can you tell me about sometimes like say cre where creative risks have really paid off, or even the ones where you you took a creative risk and it didn't pay off at all? But yeah, just some of some of those things.
SPEAKER_02I think there's been quite a few um times where that's happened. Um I guess my first sort of client that I worked with, we were um they wanted to update their product portfolio. Um and this is one of our sort of clients that that speaks a different language. There's there's a quite a big language barrier there. So I was sort of responsible for liaising with this client, looking at what updates they wanted to make to their product portfolio to then share out with with their existing and um new clients as well. Um so I was given sort of their comments on this um product portfolio, and I didn't understand anything. Um so I understanded maybe half half of the comments that they were saying. Um so then I sort of just took a moment to because I feel like when you look at something with a fresh pair of eyes, like I was looking at it for ages, and then I was like, let me come back to it tomorrow. Um, there wasn't an urgent headline on this, by the way. Um so I then went back to it the next day and just just took what I could understand out of their comments, um, and then sort of briefed this into our creative team, um, see what they thought as well, if there was anything that I that I missed. I basically got all of the deliverables that they needed for them to then, you know, make those updates. Um, and I think from sort of initially not understanding, I learned that you should maybe suggest to jump on a call with that client straight away to sort of ask any questions. No question is ever too silly. I've asked so, so many questions at my time, um, like being with true. Um, so yeah, I asked, I did ask a bunch of questions eventually. Um, it did take me a few days to sort of pluck up the courage to email them and suggest a call. Um, and I guess from that, um, that initial like not making a mistake, but interpreting something in a different way, I learned that it's so important to build a solid relationship with clients and try and understand what you can. Um and yeah, I'd I'd say that I mean it did take several rounds of amends. It should have only taken two. But I learned, I learned, you know, the importance of building a relationship with with your clients and asking questions um, you know, where you can.
SPEAKER_00Oh, fantastic. And it sounds like as well. True really kind of fosters that environment where like curiosity is really encouraged, um, and building yeah, building those relations. Because the thing is, like, if you've got if you've got a good relationship with the client, then then you're able to interact on that like human level where you go, Everybody makes mistakes, and they go, Yeah, well, yeah, that's right, I've made mistakes or whatever. And it's that kind of that kind of element because if yeah, invariably when people get quite angry about things, that you know, they get angry at say an organization, but at an individual person, it's less likely, you know, it's it's not necessarily anything to be angry about, it's but you know, to share that kind of uh that challenge together.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure. I also think that sort of taps into being the youngest as well, which means you can without having any previous experience, you can sort of say what you want and and get away with it. You don't have a sort of a bunch of experience in advertising in the creative or media space um that you can that they know about that you know they can sort of rely on. It's more about just asking them questions if you're confused or unclear about something, um, rather than getting something wrong and then having to go back and then make those changes again.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because because sometimes like within particularly, you know, within any industry, I think, you know, you often do the same, you know, we do what we've always done, and we, you know, I said it's in another podcast, but we expect the same outcome. Or we just always do things and we go, well, why do we do it that way? Oh, because that's the way we've always done it. And actually having somebody come into the room and go, Yeah, but hang on, why? Like, yeah, I I was there's um Sam Knowles who did a recent speech at the IPA Insights Summit, he talks about the five-stage why, and actually it's something that you know kids three, four-year-olds will continue asking why, but actually they're very, very good at getting to the root of the problem. Whereas rather than just going, Oh, well, why are you late? Oh, because I missed the bus, they'll keep asking why, well, why did you miss the bus? Oh, because I got up late, why did you get up late? Because my alarm didn't go off. Why did you alarm go off? Oh, because I didn't put new batteries in it. So that gets to the root of the problem. And I think that kind of curiosity is something that we should so encourage, but it's you know, it it often um I think Mrs. Doubtfire said, you know, often disappears with age or entering politics, yeah. You know, that kind of thing, of just no longer asking why. But it's such it's such an important skill.
SPEAKER_02I I also think being someone who doesn't know anything about the industry when I when I first started, not being, I guess, having the confidence to ask why, I think it's a really difficult thing to do, although although it seems so simple. But when you're in a meeting with 10 plus people and you're the only one saying why, because you're trying to find the root behind what they've said is actually really hard. Um, and I think is about just plucking up the courage to ask, and you won't regret it because you're gonna get to the root of why they did that or the problem that they're sort of posing as well. So, yeah, just making sure you're being curious all the time, wanting to know as well is is really important.
SPEAKER_00And I I think that confidence to overcome what is often a collective delusion where everybody's thinking, I don't really know what we're talking about here, but nobody has the courage to go, hang on a minute. Like, what are we doing?
SPEAKER_02I I do it sometimes like we're we're talking about uh an ad that's run recently or or an ad that's you know run like years and years ago that I have no clue about because I probably wasn't even born yet. And I might just sit there sometimes and and just be silent because I don't know what to say. And then I I guess I'm I'm grateful that people uh around me, my colleagues, they they do say to me, Oh, so do you know, do you know about this? So it's about I guess once you start asking that why, and then maybe if you forget a few times, someone else will jump in and actually, you know, clarify it for you. So yeah, I think that's that's something I often do.
SPEAKER_00Um I think it's a fantastic skill.
SPEAKER_03It's interesting in that um, you know, if you're like, I've had experiences when I'm in like a meeting or something, and yeah, the person who's leading it will say something along the lines of like, do you does everyone here like understand what I'm talking about? And no one says anything because yeah, they're all too scared to say that they don't understand. And then someone will be like, anyone care to explain what I'm talking about? And no one still knows. But it's like a it's a collective, collective silence, I suppose, when you uh think that everyone else knows and that the you're the only one who doesn't know. But one of the nice things, I suppose, about being the youngest is that maybe it does sometimes give you some freedom to be like, I don't know, and I kind of feel like it's okay that I don't know. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02I guess uh more acceptable than than if you had, I don't know, 20 plus years.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but then it shouldn't, I suppose it shouldn't be, but it's like it comes across it's like that thing you're saying that misses out for ourselves.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but it's definitely she said it's a noble quality, it often disappears with age or entering politics. I think it's a fantastic uh a fantastic um yeah quote. There's there's a lot of wisdom in that film.
SPEAKER_02I know, I need to re-watch it. I do also think like the more senior you get, regardless of how much experience you have, there's always room to learn as well. Yeah, I think from that, like you can still ask why. Um and it's important to know the root behind everything.
SPEAKER_03Seriously. Um just moving on to a slightly different topic, but um you've you're obviously a Gen Z, which is as am I, but I I'm the I'm the top end of the back. Um but yeah, and you've written a bit about being a Gen Z in your in your column and also specifically sort of the expectations that Gen Z has for brands around things sort of like authenticity, well-being, and equality. Do you think there are things that brands are still getting really wrong with Gen Z?
SPEAKER_02I think brands need to, like I said before, um, start looking at if their content is shareable. And it's such a simple thing, but I think it it's almost quite difficult for them to do, especially in the B2B space, because you're not, you know, trying to attract consumers, you're trying to, you know, attract other businesses, which I guess there's potential of creativity in that, but it can be seen as boring if it's not done correctly. Um, and I guess brands should start I guess looking at the way like who drives social media? It is Gen Z, to be quite honest. And we maybe know more than I guess agencies think or brands think, and they don't go to that Gen Z person because they don't have experience. But it's actually about, oh, would you share this or would you look at this? Um, what platforms would you know this do do well on? Is it TikTok? Is it Instagram? So I guess, yeah, using us as well, um, just for them like gold nuggets of information to drive their campaigns forward.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I totally agree. That's um I feel like that's something we're tr we're doing more here actually at the moment. It's like we've uh recently set up our Instagram and it's like using younger people, like specifically like one of my colleagues who or a few of our colleagues who are sort of really in the know, and like you may as well draw on that experience because like Gen Z are, like you were saying, like the biggest drivers of social media. Um do you think then that there's so obviously Gen Z, we've like you read articles all the time about Gen Z's expectations from the workplace, and often they're quite like they can be portrayed as quite negative, like the expectations. What do you think that um that there's quite a lot to be done within workplaces to try and sort of like understand Gen Z and their needs?
SPEAKER_02I think agencies um and brands could be giving Gen Z more resources to work with. I think podcasts particularly is something that we really like listening to um on the way to work or just at home and content on uh social media that that sort of allows us to learn, um, but in sort of a visual and fun way versus sitting down in a meeting and listening listening to someone talk about something you don't you don't have any clue about. Um and I'd probably say also giving us time. Um I feel like often people say that it's easier for them to do something themselves versus teach you. But if that's the case, how how are we ever gonna learn? How are we ever gonna be prepared for the future of like media and advertising? We won't if if that's the case, if people just sit there and you know don't give us the time of day to show us how to do a report. Like I've had um one of my colleagues um is sort of responsible for doing um our reports, our PCAs, things like that. And she'll sit there and and and sort of show me how they're done um and what I need to do to help her. Um so yeah, giving us giving us the time of day as well, I think is really important.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, do you think so obviously like another sort of typical stereotype about Gen Z might be like lower tension, as we kind of touched on a bit earlier with um like trying to capture Gen Z's attentions across like social media. Do you think that's something that workplaces sort of think is an issue with Gen Z? And do you think is there a way that like teaching within the workplace can sort of cater towards like that if that's true?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think I think one of the things to that is being it's really important for you to encourage for I guess agencies to encourage Gen Z to come into work because then they're they're constantly switched on with what needs to be done. Um I feel like at home it's quite easy to get, I guess, your time being taken on your phone while you have other things to do, and there's no one sort of there to guide you or tell you that, you know, what you should be doing. So I think encouraging encouraging Gen Z to come into work is really, really important. Um, like we're we're in uh three days a week, and that for me works really well. Like I'm most proactive when I'm in because I know that everyone else is working towards the same goal, and we have like a you know, we're all working on different clients, and it's just really nice to have that social aspect. So trying to integrate that into also working and learning is is is really good.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so we also we also do a three days in the office week. How would you feel about a five-day in the office week?
SPEAKER_02I mean, debatable. I think because I've sort of never been in the five days before, it's it's it's quite a shock to the system. I mean, I'm the same.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there's no judgment for me.
SPEAKER_02Um but yeah, I mean I'd be open to it. I'd I'd you know, so sort of not shut it down until I try it. I don't really know. It might be it might be better than than what it seems. Yeah. Simon, maybe you can always tell us.
SPEAKER_00It's a funny, it's a funny one because when you when you're on that kind of like train of doing five days a week, I mean I did that for probably like 13, 14 years, uh commuting in an hour on the train each way. You kind of don't question it until you stop doing it. And actually, sometimes I think with the pandemic, it was one of the things that you know the positives come out of that sort of time period was it did force us to re-evaluate some things. Because I think what's really important in terms of like creating inclusive workspaces is actually making sure that you're getting that element of work-life balance right, you know, and having a kind of a culture where you're supported by, you know, the senior management within your organisation, but they also, you know, it also acknowledges the fact that actually, you know, there might be times when say being at home on a Friday where you've got you know lifestyle admin stuff, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you're any less committed to the work you're doing, but you're actually probably going to be more productive if you haven't got the oh, I've got to rush to the post office in the ten minutes I've got here, you know, those sort of because it's the only one near the office. Whereas actually that like that approach which understands like the balance of modern life, you know, and if you say, for example, like you know, young parents and things like that, you know, having that sort of degree of flexibility in there is I think really, really important. And the the most important thing I think is if you create a culture where you where you insp where people are inspired, where they're you know really loyal to the organisation and they love the work that they do, they'll always do their best work for you. So kind of giving, you know, and and giving the additional support which that kind of degree of flexibility offers will make them make them happier, it'll make them more more productive, it will make them more you know like we'll just more committed to the organization because that degree of understanding lifestyle and culture I think is really important. So you know, it's a difficult one. I mean, going from three to five days a week now, I think would be very, very tough. Yeah, and I would also personally speaking, I would question the um the value that that because it, you know, you've always got to wear with any kind of leadership or management decisions, well, what's the possible negative? You know, are we are is this gonna is this gonna not work for a certain proportion of our employees? Is this gonna make them less productive because actually they're more stressed about, you know, is this gonna increase stress. There's all those things that I think is really important for organisations to balance out.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think I think it's finding that right balance, like you said, of like social and then work. Um but yeah, if you're committed to your job and you enjoy what you do, there's no reason why you're not gonna deliver, you know, something you need to at home realistically. Um I often like to like go to a coffee shop and work. I just, you know, make the most out of my working from home days, I guess. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And also there's you know, Rory Sutherland talks about, you know, the the uh possibility of kind of happy accidents occurring. Because you might be, say, working in a coffee shop and working on a particular brand or whatever it may be, and you might get some sudden inspiration or somebody that you talk to there. So having those those capabilities for those new outside perspectives on things, you may, for example, be working at your nan's house and talking, working on a coffee brand, and then get some insight from your nan that you know changes the whole perspective and makes you go, actually, I don't drink coffee, but now I completely get it because you know that that single interaction. I think those things that sh you know are sometimes undervalued, but anecdotal information is often so important, or just those little small interactions you have with people can be so valuable.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure. I think I think also ads have a lot of simple insights behind them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Ones that we may have not thought about when, you know, sitting in a meeting and discussing how to best show this brand up um on different platforms. But yes, the mo the the simplest thing is is you know the most effective, I guess.
SPEAKER_00And I think it's really important within it within agencies. I think you know, uh a thing that I would encourage all agencies to do is to listen to all of the different perspectives around the table. And and actually I don't think I think certain you know, yes, like some degree of knowledge you know, to an e to a degree, knowledge is built over time, um, and there's certain elements of you know understanding or comprehension of certain things. But actually wisdom, I don't think is you know, I don't think that I think that that just can come at any age. You can be wise, you know, they say that you know knowledge is is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, but wisdom is knowing that you don't put it in a fruit salad. You know, those kind of uh things is can be really, really valuable. And actually, as we were talking about earlier, if you're doing a social campaign, if I if so if if we were if say you and I, Ellie, were to be given two social briefs, I would approach it in a very, very different way. And being perfectly honest, 99% of what I would do would be wrong, because I'm not a heavy social wrong. But you know what I mean? Like I had preconceived ideas of how you communicate on so which would come across, which is kind of like that element of things would would be what an AI could churn out and actually would resonate with no one, but but but that kind of lived experience of and also how younger people are leaning in and also leaning out of social, you know. What what elements do they lean into and what elements it's you know, and understanding the nuance of those platforms, I think is so valuable.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think also we try and sort of see different people's perspectives. Um at True, we we often conduct unconventional sessions. Um so every Monday someone will present an unconventional idea, which is an ad that they've seen. Um it can be anywhere, it can be new or old as well, and then we'll go around and get people's opinions on that ad. And sort of my opinion um on the last one is completely different to sort of someone else um you know who's maybe midway midway through their career or you know, at the peak of their career. Or um, yeah, so it's also nice to see how we how we look at ads differently and and then rank them uh on a sort of creative um scale as well, and each number will sort of represent a different yeah, a different thing.
SPEAKER_00Those kind of like weird and wonderful approaches where you might get an ad that is so obscure that you know, like the the one that always everybody comes back to is you know, like the the gorilla on a purple background playing drums to Phil Collins, you know. How did anybody come up with that? It's the weirdest thing you've ever but it really you know immediately I hit I hear that I want a dairy milk, you know what it is.
SPEAKER_02It's iconic, it's so iconic.
SPEAKER_00It's just so it's is you know, and even like let's say the mere cats or like compare them, or you know, little bit going back a little bit further with the um oh there was that uh he was like an opera singer, Gio Compario, who was cool, wasn't he? But go compare. Do you remember that go compare guy? You know, just random stuff like that. But it's just weird, and one that's what I think is great about good advertising is those having those, you know, unconventional approaches. Yeah. You know, inf like influences that might come from completely somewhere separate, or an ad that you might never talk about. But that that approach I think is really, really interesting.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so just on to the sort of final section of questions. Um, you've talked a little bit already about uh sort of making mistakes and asking silly questions. Um why do you think sort of being curious and being vulnerable in a way that's sort of necessary for asking those kind of questions is important for growth within this industry?
SPEAKER_02I th I think they're essential both for growth, um, curiosity and vulnerability. It allows you to create, I guess, a safe space in the agency for everyone, firstly you to voice your opinion and then for everyone else to voice their opinion, where maybe before they wouldn't feel confident to do so. And having sort of like-minded people around you where you're working all working towards the same goal and you all want to achieve the same thing, um, just you know, being open to learning, learning new things, being curious, being vulnerable, you know, no one's gonna judge you um for being right or wrong. That's that's just not the case. Everyone's human at the end of the day, going back to, you know, there's a human at the end of everything. Um, so yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I suppose also it's even by asking the first question, being able to like voice how you feel, then someone else listens to that question and that sparks something in them, and it's all starts that sort of chain reaction, which is kind of necessary, I think, a lot of the time for creative ideas. And yeah. Um I mean, if you could so obviously that's as we were saying earlier, it's something that maybe it feels easier as well from like uh us being like earlier in our um careers. Is there any advice that you'd give to someone starting their first job in advertising? If there was what one piece, even what would it be?
SPEAKER_02One piece. Or more. Or you have more as much as you can. I have so much. Um I'd probably say. Oh, I don't even know now. Um one would be, I guess a main one would be make connections early on. You never know whether those connections are gonna lead you. Like, I didn't think I'd be here today recording a podcast with the IPA. Um and I guess a second one, if that's allowed, that's allowed, um, would be don't be afraid to make mistakes. And that links to sort of asking questions, ask as many questions as you need to. Um, it's all about getting to the getting to the why behind the wall, I think. Um so yeah, those are definitely two two strong pieces of advice I'd say to anyone entering the industry or uh anyone anyway, like doesn't have to be specifically related to whether you're going into advertising or not. I think they're just general things that people often forget to do. Um and just yet know that you're human, making sure you're, you know, doing them two things is, you know, gonna benefit you in the long term.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I feel like both of those also just almost come under like being like brave and putting yourself out there. I mean, like what we're saying about like LinkedIn and make like that as a form of connections if you can't make any like in if you don't know anyone who's in advertising, obviously, then that's like the main way. But it just takes a lot you just have to throw yourself out there.
SPEAKER_02A lot of courage, yeah, for sure. Um but yeah, I didn't expect anything. I just sort of tried to put myself out out there with what I knew which wasn't much, and then you know, go from there. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I and I think you the way in which you you know, what really resonated is you your capability of I guess you know, you say you didn't know much, but actually I think you're a lot wiser than you probably gave yourself credit for. Because because yeah, getting distilling down you You know, w in in the presentation that we saw in the in the initial write-up that you did, very, very complicated stuff into I think it was ten key points where every single one of them was actionable. You know, having that capability. Because most of the time, like if you see, if you go to a conference, there's certain things that you'll remember. But if you get to the end of the day, and then if somebody says, Well, can you tell me about every single presentation? You won't be able to remember them. Because your brain just doesn't focus. But actually, every single one of those was a very good um I guess trigger for a memory for memories where if you've watched it, then you go, Oh, right, yeah, that bit, oh, that bit, oh, oh, okay. Well, I can I can apply that there. You know, I think then that is such such a uh such a a skill that I think you know, if you've got it, absolutely you've got to use it because it's fantastic.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I guess just taking the key the key things from that conference um for me and finding things that I could work with in order to make a a a LinkedIn post that sort of resonated with people. And not that, you know, many people saw it. Um it's you know the thought, the thought, like the intention behind it. Um it for me, I I find that when I write, I learn a lot. Like that's sort of a way I I learn things. Um so when I write things, it engraves automatically in my brain.
SPEAKER_00Um and and just for say somebody like actually I think that we've touched upon something which is a real uh skill that you know, what what would be your top tip? And this isn't something that we've kind of discussed before. What would be your top tip in being able, you know, how did how did you write, say for example, that first piece that you did, how did you get that? Did you write things as you went, or did you re-review things, or how did you get those points down?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I actually l like to write things on a notebook. Um even if I'm watching something from my laptop and have the sort of capability to write from my notes, I'll always write on a notebook. I feel like when I write, it's like it's something you're actually doing. So it, you know, you learn from it versus just typing. So I write note I wrote notes as sort of the conference went on and a couple notes on each talk, I guess, because there was quite a lot of talks. Um, and then from what I had written, not necessarily um like big paragraphs, it was more just like starter points that I could then let my mind do the, you know, rest of rest of the thinking on and then come out with something else. Um, but yeah, just taking notes as I went through and finding what was most interesting and what people could maybe resonate with the most out of them points if they, I guess, putting myself in in a position of someone similar to me who was entering the industry, didn't have much experience. Um, or someone who just wanted a brief, brief summary if they couldn't attend, let's say. Um so yeah, trying to put yourself in other people's shoes, um, yeah, different people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I know when you did at the recent planning and strategy summit, you did the um the panel session with Monica and Fahan. And you know, I caught up with both of them afterwards, and they said, you know, to have that ability to be able to ask questions, like panels are a tough gig. Like I've done a few of them on both sides. I've done I've been a guest on panels and I've and I've asked the questions about it's a very, very tough gig. But actually, like if you you know, I'm sure you you've if you've watched back the uh the video, you know, it was so seamless, it was like you'd done it a million times before.
SPEAKER_02But actually I wouldn't feel like it in the moment.
SPEAKER_00No, well I think that humanistic element there really came through, and that's what they said really resonated with them because they said it's lovely to be able to have a chat rather than a business conversation about business issues, you know, because these are business critical things we they were talking about, but actually it's like it's like just well, what would we say if we were talking about this not in a structured environment? And that's what really, really came through, and I think also it made it really understandable and relatable for the audience as well. So I think that's a really, really key thing. So we've got a couple of like final bits that we're liking to uh ask kind of all all of the guests that we're having on the show, just about, you know, what do you firstly I'll just say again? So what do you think needs to change or within agencies in order to future proof themselves for you know the coming years ahead? You know, what are the key things where you think, oh, we could change that a bit?
SPEAKER_02I'd probably say they need to get better at, I guess, adapting to the evolving landscape, um, whether it's utilising AI to enhance their skill sets, every everyone in the agency as well, not just sort of one person, and that's their role to sort of look at AI. I think everyone should, whether that's doing a training course or just exploring different tools, um, I know some of them sort of you have to pay for, but it is worth the investment at the end of the day because you're gonna then be ahead of the curve compared to other agencies who maybe have only started thinking about AI now, I guess. Um, and then I I I think like, you know, speaking to the right people at your agency and getting their different perspectives on things as well, not just going to that one person who's the decision. I mean, it does matter about the decision maker because they're making the final call, but it it is good for them to get everyone else's opinion on things because someone else might have a completely different outlook um, you know, on the planning of a campaign or or something like that to another person who maybe sits in the media team um or the creative team, let's say. So yeah, I think it's about sort of them two things adapting and choosing the right people, um, getting their opinions.
SPEAKER_00And I and I think actually having, you know, as you said, because often within organizations you go, oh well there's that person, they're the person who knows about AI. Yeah. And I and you know, a thing that always I always think back to is something that um Deborah Meadon once said on Dragon's Den, you know, Dragon's Den. And she said, uh, you know, she said to somebody, oh how how much of your you know, how much of your business is reliant on this single client? And they said, Oh, 90%. And she said, that really worries me, because if that one client goes, you've got no business. And the same thing is if you've got one person who knows the ins and outs of the AI, and then they go, actually, I've been offered an alternative position, and they leave the organization, that whole skill set disappears. But act but by getting everybody upskilled and bringing up the the level within the organization, then you've got that that kind of natural transferability. And also, I think from the client perspective, they can then come in. It's like having a good CRM system in the background. You know, and and a client can go, Oh, I know that this person's on my regular contact's on holiday, but I'm also really confident that anybody else who's gonna pick the asset is gonna have the same amount of knowledge about our our business and our approaches and are gonna be able to respond really, really well to that. So I think that's yeah, certainly really important thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think I think there's always that that sort of worry um that when someone does go away, that no one else is gonna be able to perform their role. So I guess having your having multiple responsibilities, like I'm sort of responsible for some house marketing bits at true, and then sort of my account exec role, um dealing with clients, helping on reports. Um I'm across a lot of things, which means that I have learnt a lot. Um, but yeah, trusting and upskilling your um agency, I think, is one of the best things you can do.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And just lastly, Ellie, before we kind of close up, just looking ahead. I mean, in your first year and a half in the industry, you've achieved more than more than I, you know, more than most people will do in their entire career. So you've done so many exciting things and and fantastic stuff. And and the great thing, you know, having known you for about a year and a half now, is I like the same enthusiasm and inspiration that was I saw when I first met you, you know, I could see it's even even more so now than it than it was then. So what are what are you most excited about in the you know in the coming years in your career and in you know, whether in the future of media or wherever your career may take you? What are you most passionate and excited about?
SPEAKER_02I think more um working with so many more different clients um that work in different industries as well. Because I feel like B2B is very subjective of like maybe um finance or industrial um manufacturing, things like that. So I definitely think I guess learning more about how different clients in different industries want uh campaigns to sort of come across and be perceived by their audiences. Um and then I just I would say exploring creativity more and how it can be used in B2B because it's often something that's overlooked and maybe introducing ways other agencies can you know use tools for creativity as well. Um and yeah, I guess just see where see where this journey takes me. I'm not exactly sure of where I'm gonna end up this time next year. Yeah. Um, but I just want to continue learning and and sort of just being ambitious and you know, not not lose that sort of keeping up with the industry. Um, because I feel like I guess life just just happens and you often forget to read articles, listen to podcasts about the industry, and I think it's important to maintain that as well, um, especially with my apprenticeship apprenticeship sort of taking a lot of my time. I feel like that was kind of slipping, but now I I'm I'm like I listened to a podcast this morning about you know advertising and AI and how we can utilize it. So I think just doing little things like that are really going to help you and in the ways that you sort of best learn things as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I guess that constantly evol you know, evolving kind of mindset actually makes the skills that you learn, whatever industry you start in, if you have that kind of evolutionary mindset of actually I'm always learning, developing, and seeing life as a journey rather than, oh, you know, I I think it was Bob Dylan who said, you know, you never want to be in a position where you feel like you've arrived at the destination. You always want to be heading for somewhere or you know, thinking about the next step and you know, evolving and learning.
SPEAKER_02There's always there's always an end. Well, once you reach that goal, there's always opportunity. I meant to say there's always opportunity to um push further.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Well, Ellie, it's been absolutely fantastic uh speaking to you today. Um so the exciting things we've so obviously people can catch up with you in the uh Gen Z Unfiltered series that you write regularly for the IPA newsletter and for the IPA website. Um you can also catch up on the Media Planning and Strategy Summit, the fantastic panel session um that you that you did as well. And can are you on any socials, Ellie, or where people can follow you? I'm on LinkedIn. On LinkedIn.
SPEAKER_02Fantastic.
SPEAKER_00And uh yeah, keep an eye out for that. But yeah, yeah, really, really big thank you for coming in today, Ellie. I've thoroughly enjoyed it and really appreciate your time and uh and the energy that you've given to the industry and and all the great stuff that you've done.
SPEAKER_02Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_03It's been so great. Thank you so much. Thank you.