New Business Diaries: Ellie Olliff, Oli Richards and Tom Trevelyan

Neverland Creative's Tom Trevelyan joins the IPA New Business Diaries podcast to talk to BBH London's Ellie Olliff and The Beyond Collective's Oli Richards about the importance of an agency brand in driving growth.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Welcome to the New Business Diaries brought to you by the IPA New Business and Marketing Group. In this series, we speak to some of the biggest names in our industry on the hot topics in the new business world. I'm Ellie Olaf, New Business Director and Partner at BBH, and alongside Ollie Richards, Chief Growth Officer at the Beyond Collective, in this week's podcast we're talking to Tom Trevalian, Brand Director at Neverland, about driving growth by building an agency brand.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Tom leads all things growth, brand, and comms at the independent agency Neverland. He joined the agency shortly after it was founded in 2019 by John Forsyth and Simon Massey, and has helped it grow to become one of the UK's leading agency brands. He started his career working in account management at Adam and Eve DDB and has spent time at Mr. President and Havas before joining Neverland. He's also recently been awarded Campaign's Marketing Team of the Year for a second year in a row and has been named as one of Campaign's top five new biziefs for the last three years. So he's a bit of a pro on the topic. Tom, welcome to the New Business Diaries podcast. We are quite excited about this one.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Hi, it's really good to be here with you guys.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

So let's start at the beginning because you've had a less traditional route into new business and agency brand. So how has this experience influenced the way you do things now and what did you learn along the way?

SPEAKER_01 1:37

So yeah, I I started out my career as an accountant exec at Adam and Eve. Uh we're about 30 people just on John Lewis. So our brand was, or our agency was, you know, rapidly, rapidly on the ascent. Um it's incredibly exciting, and I I really fell in love with advertising sort of from day one. Um I think the other thing I I saw from day one, I actually was an intern before I got a full-time job there, is I saw the power of agency brands to drive ne business. Um, it was just constantly out there in the press, and the team did an amazing job. So I, you know, I kind of clocked how important brands are for agencies from day one. Um, and yeah, that really influenced how I thought about my client work going forward. I was in client service for about a decade after that, before moving over to new business. Um, and I was always thinking, even as an account exec, you know, what do we need to capture to make the PR on this good? What do we need to, what's the asset that we need to promote ourselves as an agency? You know, that was important at Adam and Eve, but when I moved to Mr. President, which was a smaller independent place, you know, even more important because it was growing, you know, a name for itself. I think it was about five and a half years ago, um, which was like a very long time. When I joined Neverland, you know, there were three or four of us at the beginning, and everybody has to wear every hat. It's sort of the the joys and uh nightmares of startup life. I mean, I I loved it. Um, you know, you just have to pick up the hat that is is needed. And, you know, I quickly saw that new business growth, brand comms was something that I really loved. So I uh you know did it alongside all the other account service, making teas, sorting out electricity bills, all the stuff um that you have to do at a startup, but then took on uh kind of new business growth, brand comms, all of that sort of uh world full-time there a few years ago and uh love it.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

So I think it it's what's so interesting about your journey at Neverland is that you started it from literally zero. I mean, like as you say, paying the electricity bills and focusing on the basics of the business before moving on to the brand. And I think that's that's quite unique because I think a lot a lot of people will be jumping into something which has an existing brand or they're picking up something that's got some momentum behind it or that means something to people already. Talk to us a little bit about like your view of agency brands and also then how you did that from scratch and never land with the rest of the team.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Yeah, so I mean I I think the way that I've always looked at building an agency brand um is treating it like any other brand that I have worked on or that we work with. You know, we have to um we had to and we have to keep it really focused about something that is very simple and is authentic. You know, what is that truth right in the middle of Neverland that um has always been and will always be us and our brand? Um, you know, I think we we were very clear on that from the start. You know, the reasons why the guys founded it was uh was very simple and was very true and is what we focus on now. Um I think consistency is the thing that has made it grow, and that is what I really focus on is you know, consistency of being out there in market with our message, with our people, with our work, uh, but also consistency of our brand and the experience people have of our brand across every touch point, you know, from the moment they come into the office to the emails they receive, um, to how we write press releases, the sort of images that we use, everything ties back to that same, you know, core message. You know, so the dressing around our brand will change. Like we bring in new logos and we play around with our logos on merch and new people come in and work and clients. Um, but I'm still banging the same drum that I was, you know, in 2019. And I think that's the really, really important thing. We know who we are as a brand, um, and we stick to that. Like a client, the campaigns will change and the the end line might change and the colour scheme might change, but uh you know, throughout it is never land, always has been, always will be, and that's really important. Um, that consistency means that it's grown.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

This is because the consistency thing is really interesting for me because this it there's such a danger in the in brand, agency brand generally, that you end up you know plonking some stuff on a wall that is a set of words that you like the sound of, but the way you talk about it with that kind of passion, they're obviously very uh true to who you you guys are. How do you get to something which feels authentic like that and that is quite true, rather than just you know another Venn diagram or all the other stuff that we end up like talking endlessly about?

SPEAKER_01 6:18

That's a really good question. I think what is important is trying things and embracing things and being playful and not taking the dressing around your brand that seriously. You know, take it seriously, but not so seriously that you get into arguments about what the Vendor, what shape the circles of the Venn diagram look like. You know, it's um yeah, be playful, have fun. You know, I think that's if you look at consumer brands that are successful, the ones that are confident enough to be playful with themselves, you know, are the ones that I'm most drawn to and I'm most excited about and I think make the best work. So yeah, I I look at us in a very similar way. You know, like every agency, we've got some words on the wall. Everyone loves that. Um tennis, what are they? Well, they are uh dream, plan, and hustle, which is our kind of operating model. And you know, they've been a core part of our agency for quite a while. It's our way of thinking, um, it's how we approach everything, it's up on our website, it's on our merch. Um you know, what goes around those words changes. The design of what those words change as they go on the wall. Um, I think it's the spirit and the thinking behind those words that's more important than the words themselves. You know, in five years' time, will it still be those two words? I don't know. May well be, but it might have changed. But the thinking behind that won't have changed. The reason for Neverland won't have changed.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

Yeah, completely agree with everything you're saying. And I think it's great advice treating our agency brands like brands that we work with. Um, and so often people don't live by their own advice. So very good advice for our listeners. Um, when you are translating that into your agency marketing plan, how do you ensure that you're pushing to audience beyond the village or other agencies?

SPEAKER_01 8:10

I think my answer to both of those questions is I look at our um marketing plan, our um you know, brand plan as it's like built uh planting a forest, you know. I have to think long term, I need to, you know, know and accept that not everything is going to grow. Um, so I need to plant a lot of trees and I need to keep on planting them to really grow a full forest. Um but what's really important is I need to be consistent with my nurturing of what I planted, or none of it will. You know, if I stop taking care of all the different things that we're doing, um, you know, I suddenly come out of market and I don't speak to press for months for whatever reason, everything will stop growing. You know, so I have to be consistently out there, you know, nurturing the plants that have grown, saying, okay, that project didn't work or that approach didn't work, that partnership didn't work, doesn't matter. Let's try again, let's plant something different and see what happens. Um, and yeah, I mean, that's worked for us. I've been doing that for the last five years, and it's it's worked for us really well, and I will continue doing that. You know, what I love about this part of the industry is that it's so much longer term thinking than in account management. You know, when you're at the start of account management, it's like, what do I need to do today? Maybe your window of vision goes to a week. When you move up, it becomes a month, it becomes a course, it becomes a year. I think what I love about this role, especially the sort of brand and comms side, is I'm thinking about stuff in 2027 now, and I have to get that going to make 2027 plans work. Um I find that really interesting. Um, and I I find it nice to not just be in the day-to-day, but thinking much longer term. You know, how do I drive the growth? How do I help Tom of 2030 today?

SPEAKER_02 9:55

Um I'd love to know what's going to happen in 2027. Please let me know. Yeah, I will. I will.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

I'm just trying to make 2027 a really nice year so I can go on holiday.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

Um, I think you're very humble because everything you've achieved is amazing and the success you've had at Neverland is brilliant, but it's not all about the soft stuff. So, how do you leverage the brilliant brand that you've helped create as an asset in new business and on pitches? How does that show up?

SPEAKER_01 10:24

Yeah, the I think it's easy to think with new business that my job is just to get clients to the door and then hand it over and get the management team in and get the the founders that, you know, we our team are phenomenal and and brilliant. But my job isn't just about getting people to the door, it's about making them really excited about coming to our door. It's about, you know, making them want us, you know, driving desire in our brand so that when a client walks through the door, they're already a bit excited. You know, they already want to appoint us. I don't know if that is the case, but you know, that's that's my goal. You know, I want somebody that we're pitching for to be like, brilliant, this is the meeting that I'm looking for to most out of the seven I'm going to in the next two days. Um, you know, we do that in lots of different ways. We do that through PR, through outreach, through comms, you know, uh, there's lots of different stuff that we do that um helps drive that desire and makes a new business just flow a lot more.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

Um does that help you disrupt the pitch process at all? Do you find that you get more brands coming directly to you, like you say, because they're excited about you?

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Yeah, absolutely. So last year we saw, I think it was over 50% increase in the number of direct approaches um for new business. Quite a lot of those converted and were quite sizable. So that wouldn't have happened if people didn't know us. You know, people were seeking us out and getting in touch, and you know, lots of those we had to turn away because of conflicts or uh, you know, the size wasn't right or the timings weren't right. But um yeah, we've got five new clients that came to us directly last year, and they're brilliant and they're fantastic. And that was because they knew of us from press, from word of mouth, from seeing us at awards, seeing us at events, you know, Neverland is out there, and that's making people want to come towards us.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

So I I think the uh the desire thing definitely rings true for me as well, as another independent agency. I think uh it definitely feels like there's a buzz around independence at the moment. Um, and I know you guys are champions of independence and the independent agency part of the market, right? And I I I can probably uh relate to some of this, but how do you articulate the benefit of independence when you're going to market? And then how does that then translate to clients and what you're hearing back from clients as you're as you're pitching and working with them and and how they how they talk about it?

SPEAKER_01 12:54

So I think the the biggest thing that being an independence gives us is freedom, you know, freedom of actions and thinking, and you know, everything we do, we're we're free. You know, we don't have somebody above telling us how we need to approach things, how we need to do things. Um that means we can, you know, try whatever we want and learn from it and and grow. You know, I think the when we're doing our jobs and we meaning you know the whole agency, when we're really embracing that freedom, um, I don't need to mention the words independent or freedom or anything like that in my press releases. Like it comes through the work that we make. You know, you look at some of the big client work that we've done, there is something about it that is different to what would be created by a different agency, and that's because we are free to, you know, answer clients' business problems. You know, we're not thinking about our business problem. You know, we can work with a client and we are free to properly challenge them and find the right answer to their business problem, not give them an answer that suits ours.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Do you see because the independence thing for me, do you see it as a so it's more of a value that shows up in what you're doing? Do you ever use it as more of an asset up front? Do you ever push it forward as a like a not just a feature of the bet of the business, but a benefit of working with you? Or is it is it always much more intangible?

SPEAKER_01 14:14

No, we I mean we definitely do. You know, when we're in a pitch room uh and it's us against network agencies, you know, it's always a card that we'll play. But it isn't a card that we play for the sake of it because, you know, oh, we're an independent agency. There's a real depth and value that that gives to clients. You know, them knowing that we are free to answer them in the way we believe is right is really important. And clients really respect it. You know, they know that when we come to them, it's coming to them to answer their question, you know, honestly and rigorously and in a way that is focused entirely on them, not us.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

So, yeah, in independence as an asset, that's really clear. The other part of working for an independent is also got some massive personalities. How do you leverage the power of individual brands as a part of that wider marketing and brand mix when you're going to market?

SPEAKER_01 15:14

I think the the most important thing is working with people and creating uh leadership opportunities for them that are authentic to themselves. You know, the worst thing I can do is shoehorn somebody into a conversation that they don't have any interest in or um thoughts on. You know, that it comes across, you know, you can read in Press app. Like when people speak, and it's it's not something that they care about. So I have spent a lot of time getting to know our team. I've known lots of our team for many, many years. Um, and have helped them, you know, develop leadership positions on topics that they care about, um, with an eye on how that builds into the bigger story of Neverland.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

I mean, you yourself are also a personal brand, and I know you hate that word, but how important is that in your kind of new business and comms role?

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Yeah, I mean, I I I think I do hate that phrase around myself because um, you know, my comms side of like I'm not the story, I'm not the brand. Um, you know, I think I just turn up as myself, you know, and that's the most important thing. You know, the my brand in heavy inverted commerce isn't what drives my day-to-day and the success of my work. The quality of my relationships with the partners that I work with, be that intermediaries, be that press, be that clients, be that client press teams, be that partner agencies, you know, the depth and quality of those relationships is the most important thing. And that doesn't come from me being a brand, that comes from me just being myself and speaking to people um like a normal person, you know, creating friendships. Um, and yeah, so it it it for me, it none of this is about brand Tom Trev. It's just me making sure that when I turn up, I'm doing my job the best I can and I'm being kind, useful, helpful. That's that's how I build relationships, and um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

And it is those relationships. I mean, you and I know each other when you were Adam and Eve and our seven stars, we did a job swap, didn't we? Because I wanted to get to know more about creative, you wanted to get to know more about media, um, and it was brilliant. And then um it was the AAR town halls that the three of us got back in touch and now speak all the time. So yeah, I think since COVID, there's definitely been a shift in the new business and marketing community of people. It used to be that new business people didn't speak to each other for fear of giving away trade secrets, but I think there's definitely with AAR town halls and more opportunities to get together. Um, what's your advice, or how important do you think that community is? And what's your advice for people in the industry that want to engage more?

SPEAKER_01 17:55

The community is is you know really important uh to me. I think the the people that work in our side of the business are some of the best that I've ever met. You know, we've got we've known each other for a very long time, but I think we've really got to know each other well after we connecting at the AAR Christmas drinks, an iconic moment in the calendar. Um I think it makes it much more fun. You know, I working at a smaller agency, you know, we're 60, 70 odd, but there's you know just a couple of us in my side of the team when you've got big departments at you know, Christmas, I go and sit by myself in prayer, uh, just having a sandwich. I don't, I don't. Um, it can be, you know, lonely is like an overdramatic word, but you know, when you're a team of one or two people working on one part of the business, you know, it's great to connect with other people, you know, not to um give people live updates on what you're doing because you have to keep things confidential. But you know, just getting advice, getting mentorship, and kind of working with each other and learning, you know, what have you tried? You know, maybe I could apply that. I think it's yeah, it's it's incredibly important to connect with other people doing this role. Um I would love there to be more live events. You know, there's brilliant stuff that different intermediaries do, and there's oyster catchers events, there's AAR town halls, but I think um yeah, the the AAR Christmas drinks is is wonderful. Like I love it. You know, it's it's kind of going, seeing lots of people that I haven't seen since you know the AAR Christmas drinks. The year before I might have texted them or bumped into them at Cannes or somewhere, but it's um yeah, I I I think face-to-face networking and getting to know each other uh is really important for personal development. But also, you know, you never know where conversations might lead. You know, um I still have a great relationship with the people from the Seven Stars back from you know early days when I was Adam and Eve. And you know, that leads to opportunities and stuff. So I think networking, especially between us and the people that do our job, is yeah, key to be able to do our job successfully.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

I think as well it's the the the the market is has got harder and has been a little bit harder for for a while. And I think you look at initiatives like the Pitch Positive Pledge, where the aim of something like that is to give people a framework to be able to push back if they need to, right? And I think it's great to have that as a structure that you can follow. But for me personally, and I know you're the same, when you speak to other people that do the same job, it gives you confidence that that you can do that when you're in a more of a live situation. And I think we only get that when we come together and we talk and we share best practice. And as you say, a lot of us are working in silos, one, two people teams. Like it's it is really important to get out and and and be a part of that community because I think it makes you better at your job.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Definitely. I mean, I think uh you know, a big thing that I've learned from Yulie is and Ali is pushing back on timings, and uh, something we've spoken about for ages, and I know came up in a previous podcast. Um, it's having the confidence to say to a client, guys, you know, that having a pitch the second week after January, I think it was the and Tina were talking about that, is not on. You know, that might seem really good for you, client side, but actually that means 30 people ruining their Christmas across three agencies, you know, maybe 15, 20, 30 at each agency. Um and I think hearing that you know you have both done that to clients and intermediaries and in processes means that I'm able to then do that and be like, okay, no, I know that this is okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

It's a scary prospect if you don't know that anyone else is doing it. You don't want to be the only ones.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

Yeah, especially if it's you know a big client that you really want to work with and you're like, we absolutely need to win this. You know, it's like maybe you do just work at Christmas. You know, nobody nobody wants to. And you know, uh neverline, we're we're very, very uh we put a lot of importance on giving people time off, time away. Um, but yeah, it's just you know, it's just useful to hear. Other people in the industry say, Oh no, this is what we did and this is what happened. Sometimes it doesn't work, but sometimes it does.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

I think it was um is it Laura Vipond at Ogilve says she's got this great phrase, agencies have more agency than they give themselves credit for. And I think you only know that when you hear stories of other people doing it. Yeah. And I think that's the great thing about communities is sharing that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:21

And the three of us have actually been discussing setting up our own event, haven't we, for new business people to mix together. So soft launch here, but hopefully that will be coming soon, and then we can bring more people together.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

Very exciting. What's this space?

SPEAKER_02 22:34

So, what three pieces of advice would you give to any budding agency new business people out there?

SPEAKER_01 22:41

I think the first and um yeah, most important is to enjoy the ride. You know, new business is an amazing new business and and marketing is an amazing part of our industry. Um, there's a lot of ups and a lot of downs. You know, I think it's really important to not let the downs or mishaps or losses get you down for too long. You know, this is a job where you just have to beat yourself up and keep going. You know, it might feel like the end of the world, but it isn't. Tomorrow we'll still go. So um enjoy the wide, enjoy successes. You know, I think it's I'm actually probably the worst in our agency of doing that. You know, the moment we win something, I'm like, great, what's the press release? When are we getting that out? What's the timing? I need to give myself more of a time to be like, amazing, we won that, let's celebrate. Um, and I'll write the press release tomorrow. I think secondly, um, like we've just spoken about networking and the importance of it, and how useful it is, get out there and talk to people. You know, you never know where that person you met on a training course on the you know at the AER Christmas drinks um or you know, at a networking event, you don't know where they'll end up. You know, it might be a client, it might be another agency, might be a different shape of agency, um, might be at an award company. You know, keep those relationships going and don't just be sat at your desk, you know, get get out there and out into the world. And I think finally, the third bit of advice is you know, keep up to speed with current affairs and pop culture. Um it sounds like we all should be doing that, but you know, it's it's had a disproportionate knowing what's happening in pop culture and politics and current affairs has had a really disproportionate effect on my job, being able to come in and say, actually, like the economy isn't looking good. So maybe the client will be thinking that, you know, I need to have that sort of thinking as much as any of the team. You know, it's not shouldn't just be on the strategy of sort of creatives to know what's happening. I need to know what's happening in the you know, the economy and culture more broadly, because that will affect how we approach clients, how we talk about ourselves, how we talk about work. Um, so yeah, just keep up to speed, read papers, spend hours on TikTok. That's how I justify uh my evening. It's research based. It's research. Uh yeah, exactly. It's not a doom scroll, it's it's uh market research.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

Yeah, get out there and do things. I think Sir John Hegerty famously says, do interesting things and interesting things will happen to you. And I think it's so true. Yeah. Especially in our roles. So to finish, who are the people that you've influenced your career? So we've talked about the varied career you've had to get to this point. Um, who's had such an impact on your career and what advice have they given you?

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Yeah, I mean, I think that I mean, there's so, so many people, um, yourselves included, that I could mention. Um, but I think the yeah, two that I should mention, you know, first of all is is Matt Goff, who's now founder of or co-founder of ARC. Um, he was my first manager at Adam and Eve. Um, and yeah, he really helped me fall in love with the industry and mentored me amazingly. You know, he was just brilliant at, you know, taking a 22-year-old, just out of uni guy and helping me figure out how to, you know, love advertising and get into it and love creative work and love the process. And um, yeah, so it's probably not any specific advice that he gave me. There's hundreds of bits, but yeah, he he really impacted my career and and how much I love it and enjoy it. Um, then for like Snappy Soundbite is um another former manager, uh Polly Deadman, um, who's actually been my manager at three separate agencies. We've worked together three times. Um, and she said to me, I think it was as like a sort of account manager, and I was getting very like flustered and and you know, like, oh God, what's happening? Um, and she just kind of took me aside and said, Tom, it's PR, not ER. Um, in account management, I was like, I'm not even doing PR. Now it makes a bit more sense. Um, you know, I think it's it's something I keep in mind all the time, especially when I'm busy. You know, that is not to say that my work isn't important. You know, I take my work really, really, really seriously, but I try not to take myself too seriously. You know, there are much more important things out there, you know.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

We're not saving lives.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

We're not saving lives, you know. We're doing some charity work, which might, but uh, you know, my job isn't saving lives. There are bigger things out there, you know. That's important for me to keep perspective about myself, but it's also about my team. You know, I need to be thinking about how my team are, where my team are. That means the whole of Neverland. Um, and yeah, keep perspective on what I'm doing. Take it really seriously, but not myself. Um, yeah, so massive thanks to those two. There's many, many other people that I could mention.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

So thank you so much for your time and insight today, Tom. Um, we like to close each episode by sharing three key takeouts from the conversation that we've had. And I think there's three very clear themes for me that have come out of today. Um, the first one is about desire and desire in agency brands. And I loved that phrase that you are looking to get clients excited before they are even in the room, and that they, by using your agency brand and building desire in it out front, they're walking into the room, looking forward to that meeting above all others. And that's just testament to how powerful an agency brand uh can be. The second one was nurturing relationships, and I think it's so clear from the career that you've had today that the relationships with your colleagues, with intermediaries, with uh friends who are doing the same job in other places with clients, with prospective clients, it just shines through. And I think building those relationships by being true and authentic to who you are rather than almost playing a role, I think is such a good piece of advice for all of us. And then thirdly, enjoy the ride. Like we work in a great industry, we are in a brilliant part of that industry, and that phrase, it's PR, not ER, just gives us some perspective. When things get hard and we feel like we're under the kosh, try try and enjoy it, try and enjoy the highs. Um, because I think that's that's a huge, it's a huge benefit to this job, is that we have that.

SPEAKER_02 28:55

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