AdTalk with Paul Bainsfair: IPA President Karen Martin

IPA President, BBH's Karen Martin, joins the AdTalk podcast to talk about her agenda to reaffirm and celebrate the power and value of creativity in the UK advertising industry. They also explore Karen's journey, from Ireland and via Australia, to the IPA Presidency and what the future of advertising could look like.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Hello, this is Paul Bainsfair, and this is the IPA podcast. Today I'm talking to our new president, who is Karen Martin of BBH. We're going to hear about her early days in advertising, how she thought at one point she might be an actor, and how her mum loves ads. So here I am with Karen, our new president. We're all very excited, Karen. I hope you are too.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

I'm very excited, yes.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

I think people love to know a bit of background on uh our presidents. I know from past experience it's true. So let me ask, I can tell we all can from your accent that you come from Ireland originally, but I know you also went to Australia. So could you tell me a little bit about, you know, the young Karen and how you got advertising into your head and perhaps move from there to how you ended up here in London after um a circuitous route, shall we say?

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Yeah, I'd love to. So um a young Karen, uh probably the same as an old Karen, very lively, precocious, cheeky, all the rest of it. Um and the reason I well, I wanted to be an actress. Okay, so uh my mother sent all of us to acting, and so we were always on doing fashions, which is Irish for competition on stage a lot when we were young. Um, but it also taught us how to be able to speak and and speak passionately about things, which I think is it's such an important part of growing up is to be able to be confident and in sharing what you think. So it was brilliant for that. Um, and then I obviously wanted to be an actress as well, but um I didn't quite pursue that because I got into advertising. But as I said in my IPA video, the reason I wanted to get into advertising is because I was about 11 or 12 when the um Levi's Laundrette ad came out. Um, and that was like, oh my god, what is this? He was obviously gorgeous, the music was brilliant, the story was incredible, and a brand that, you know, it was back in the rise again, it was quite popular. And my my thoughts were I would like to marry Nick Kamen, or I would like to do whatever he's doing and work in this industry. And I remember looking at it going, I want to do that. That's really interesting. What is it? Um and I just found out more about advertising. It helped that my mother um loves ads, she thinks they're brilliant. Rita is uh an avid ad watcher. Um and as you said, when I went to Australia, she would call every week and give me an update, like a director's treatment of what ads were out and what she thought was good and what she wasn't. So her own Rita Star reviews. Um, and yeah, so I think it was just like we just loved ads at home, we watched them all the time. I saw the Levi's one and went, I want to do that. And then I just found out how I could do it, and and the rest is then, you know, we go into Australia and all the rest of it. But that was it. I just wanted to do it. And I still think now if we make good good enough work, I think we've got a generation who'll go, whatever that is, I want to do that too. I hope.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

I don't I just couldn't agree more. I mean, I I don't think anyone would be surprised to who anyone that is who saw your film uh that preceded the manifesto of you walking around so doing a pastiche of the Johnny Walker ad, that you were interested in acting because you really are natural. Um not I'm not just saying that. I mean it really, really was a great bit of work and it set up your desire to really put creativity back in the spotlight.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Absolutely. It was a risk, like I mean, I could have been cancelled, but I thankfully I wasn't. Um but the funny thing is because back to Rita, everything begins and starts at Rita, uh, she'll love that. But she always uh wanted me to be an actress. So she'd said when I'd gone on and decided to do a degree in marketing, she was like, Oh, and and what about the acting? And I was like, I'll come back to that, I promise. And then when I get into advertising, anytime you go away to a shoot, and obviously I worked in Australia and Ireland and and now the UK, and I'll be I was on a shoot, and my mum would go, Right, and were you in the ad? And I'd say, No, because that's not my job. And you could are the you either saw the disappointment and the kind of head tilt of ah god, next time, or you heard on the phone going next time. And I was like, Mom, I'm not trying to be in the ads, but so finally when this got made, I was I was in an ad. So um, unless it went on telly though, I don't know if it will be that impressive for her, but she liked it. Uh so that was that was a win. And yeah, I mean, whether I I would want to do that again, I don't know. But I did it for a laugh, um, and I was surrounded by lovely people and it worked out.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

So and of course, look, I mean, BBH, um it it's such an important agency in in uh in in the history of advertising, really, uh, but also still very relevant, still doing great work. Uh and I think the fact that you are the boss of BBH and that you're saying that you want creativity to be at the centre of your agenda adds you know real weight to that uh proposition. So I think it's really fabulous. Everybody's engaged by it. I mean, I I mentioned to you how many people have come up to me uh and said, oh, I've heard about this, can I get involved? You know, I really think it's exciting. So I think it's up to you now, with our support, to make some of these things come true. What what do you think you know, it's it's I'm not gonna ask you what you want your legacy to be, but what what would you really like to see the most uh as a result of spending a couple of years with us here at the IPA really focusing on on the creative agenda?

SPEAKER_00 5:44

I think a a couple of things. One is I'd like to I'd like people to really, and I say this across all uh whatever type of agency you work in, whether it's media or creative, in that you genuinely care about creativity and you talk about ideas and you know you you get excited about the work that's out there because the more that we have, the better the work will be because it gets more competitive. And you know, when there's great work in the UK and and you can feel there's moments in time when it is, everybody's like there's a bit of competitiveness, there's a bit of jealousy, like I wish I'd made that, all that kind of stuff. And and that's a really healthy environment to be in, to try and beat what whatever was done last year or beat whatever agency bet you last year, whatever it is. But I think the fact that we just talk about the work incessantly, and I do think it was like that. I do think it was um particularly more uh creatively exciting, which is why so many people wanted to enter the industry. And what we're seeing now at the moment is maybe it's not as attractive or as cool as it used to be. And our job is to make the work that people want to get into the industry to make work for. Uh so I'd want to see more creatives in the industry across the board uh and choosing that as a career path to take. And I just want people engaged in the work because thanks for saying that, Paul, about people um being kind in their response. They're really were. And I feel maybe it's because it's something we can all do. Um I like I don't I we all chose the industry for a reason, and that's because creativity is exciting and it's you know, it's different, and no-to ideas are the same, and it makes you feel, makes you laugh, makes you think, make you cry, all of that magical stuff, and it also drives business. But I think you know, if we can just m make that as part of the everyday, then that's something we all know how to do. We just have to dig deep and find that muscle again and and make sure we we we practice what we preach.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

And of course, it takes two to tango. Yes. You need clients that are prepared to buy ideas of the kind we're talking about. Yes. And I mean I I I always remember thinking the reason it's difficult to sell great work is often because it doesn't look like anything you've seen before. And lots of clients who have the uh job of buying the work, you know, they want to rely on proven things, they want to look at things that have worked in the past, so it's harder for them.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

And they've got to go back to their company and say, look, we're buying this work from the agency. Yeah. It's a bit different. That's making life for them a little bit difficult. So you need you need that sort of willingness on the part of the clients. Do you think that's there? Do you think there's enough of that around for us to make this work?

SPEAKER_00 8:23

I believe there is. Um I I I think I I think though, you know, the expectation that you win a client's business and then the first work that comes out is award-winning, I think that's probably a bit too ambitious because I think great work comes from partnership and trust and that they clients feel you understand their business and you know their business challenges and you know the risks for making, you know, whether it's really provocative work or whatever, it doesn't all need to be that, but there are risks attached to that, and you kind of have to be going in hand in hand and knowing that you're on their side and you understand their business concerns. I think sometimes agencies can fall into, you know, being so persistent on an idea that they're not listening to some of the challenges that a client might be facing in their organization, and then then you get into kind of a bit of a tussle, and sometimes people don't feel like they win in that environment. So I always think it's partnership, it's trust, and but also back to pitching and chemistry meetings, make it clear what your belief is on great creative work. I know, you know, speaking from BBH, we've done that when we've gone into chemistry meetings in the past. If we don't want to make this type of work together, then maybe you know we're not the right agency for you. It's ballsy, it's brave, but I think you work out, A, they feel a bit challenged and maybe go, you know what, it is work, or they go, actually, for my organization right now, that's not right. So I think always be honest about what you both want from the creative product, be by their side, you know. It takes just as long time to make bad work as it does good work. Um as we say into the agency, great work is hard work. It's the additional conversation, it's the additional push on the script, it's the additional, it's this director for this reason, it's the music, it's the grade, it's the it's the cra it's all of this stuff really, really matters in pursuits of excellence. And and sure, they're really hard and you know, really test you and you have to dig deep, but the output, there's no better feeling than amazing work. And we're going into can season now, so you know, that is so true at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Very much so. And of course, um, as hard as it is to buy good work, um, how easy it is when you've got great work to feel good about everything. Um you know, good about your relationship with your agency, good about the value the agency's adding, good about the fact that you're running work that people are talking about. I mean, all these things that they're they're they're so valuable and they're worth fighting for, as you say. But I just wanted to ask you whether you thought that the um I mean everyone talks about how technology's affected advertising. I mean one of the one of the causes of technology is the absolute plethora of ways in which you can you can show up as a brand, you know, not just uh in the old legacy media, I shouldn't call it the old legacy media, you know, the traditional media, shall I say, but in all sorts of social work and influences and god knows what else. Um do you think that that that uh the need to be everywhere is is is diluting this concentration on on having the right idea, uh, or do you think that's something we just have to live with and and we can we can deal with it easily?

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Well that's the risk, and and I think that if you you know you can be a brand that is different in all different places, then you know your customers are going to collie out on that. Like, you know, you have to be consistent in your behaviour, which is why the primacy of a brilliant idea is so important, because any idea should work in every single channel or form of channel, and even channels not imagined yet. Uh, it needs to work in that, and that comes down to craft and crafting the idea, and then crafting the execution. And I don't mean craft purely in pounds, because that's what it's a shortcut to that. Craft and thinking through every level of detail. So I I do think the tr traditional disciplines of making sure are you clear on your idea, can you explain it to somebody inside? Hopefully, 30 seconds, and if you can, you've got something great. And I think that's where we've seen some of the greatest ideas developed years ago that are still as relevant today. Every little helps, Borschwunder Technic. And I think it's uh it's how you bring that to life. And you do need to be consistent though, because your customers will call you out on that.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Yeah, in fact, uh you just reminded me, I think it was Crispin Porter when they were riding high. I'm going back ten years or maybe even more, uh, in the States. And there the creative director would say to any credit team that were working on a brief when they came in with their ideas, I only want to see it as a poster. Yeah. Don't show me anything else. If it doesn't work as a poster, I'm not talking to you. And I thought that was a great example of what you're what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

I love Out Home. I think because it's A, it's unavoidable, and B, it's the it's the mo it's the way to really synthesise an idea. And we're seeing a great renaissance of it now. I think there's some amazing out home. People are really, really trying, and it's exciting. So yeah, I I I think I think if you get that right, it will work across every other channel.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Can we talk a little bit about the barn? Because um not everybody knows about it. It's I wouldn't say it's the best kept secret because you obviously you do talk about it a lot, uh, not just you, but BBH generally. Could you just explain to our listener who perhaps has not really heard about it before what it is, how it works, and why we think it's so important for you know dragging in and bringing in and growing new talent.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Absolutely. So the barn started at BBH about three years ago, and it was actually Tony Cullingham of Watford, who had been teaching for years and had finished up there, and there was a conversation whereby he came to work at BBH to run a basically incubator creative program there. And because he could spot talent from a mile off, I mean the creative departments cross-country are filled with people who were students of the brilliant and really missed Tony. Um, that that that was something that we said, let's do that. Because we'd had a form of you know creative barn placements in the past, but this was uh a more much more of a concerted effort, I would say, from a time perspective and financially as well. So basically, it gives the opportunity to anyone from any walk of life, wherever you are, young, old, doesn't it doesn't really matter, university, degree, doesn't matter to apply to get into the barn. And we've taken between 10 to 12 students every year. And what they do is they come in and they spend nine months in a room at BBH dedicated to pure learning, and they go through um various briefs, never live client briefs, just briefs, ways of working, ways of exploring. Uh Nick Gill has taken over now in doing that, who is uh BBH's ECD, and he basically trains and trains and trains them, and they work unbelievably hard perfecting their thinking, their craft. Every year at Christmas, uh the barn teams make creative work that goes out to the agency, and it's always, well, absolutely bonkers to start with. But it gives you hope. It goes, My God, these people are brilliant, and is it amazing to see that there's such great talent coming to the team.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Do they work in the old school teams of two? Do they work individually?

SPEAKER_00 15:32

How do you they come in as individuals and then at certain stages they come together in teams? Sometimes they go off as individuals as well, but they come together and and form that partnership for life, which is like still crazy. Totally, like all their butt but they they they can choose that, and then they um were brought out to agency, so plenty of agencies are kind enough to participate and give the mentoring time to go somewhere else to see how another agency works. Then they come back and then they have their graduation, which we do a big graduation ceremony at BBH uh for them. So it's a bit like it's it's a very feel-good moment, and then you have ten incredible creatives ready to go out into the world, and they have gone to agencies like Mother and VCCP and Uncommon, and we've got great success in those teams being incredibly successful in the world.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Yeah, I I think this is the part that people perhaps don't quite grasp. It's it is uh quite altruistic of you to do this because you're you're paying them a wage, you're funding them, you're teaching them, but you're you're then letting them like little fledglings, you're letting them go from the nest into the industry. You're not you're not keeping them for yourselves or scooping off the I mean, I'm sure you do try and hire some of them, but you're pretty you're pretty sort of generous about letting them go and and letting them find their way in the world.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Absolutely. And l like if you really believe in creativity and if you really believe in bringing on the next level of talent, well, you're going to have to put money into it because words mean nothing, really, and I think we've seen that. And in terms of the the Barnes students get to decide where they want to work. So, you know, you might want them to be work at BBH, but they might choose to work somewhere else, and that's just the way it goes because that's their their choice. Um, and yeah, it it it is very generous, it is, but as it's BBH, and BBH, you know, you you BBH in the walls and in the bones of BBH is all roads lead to the work. People only feel good when it's work, work, work, work, 80% idea, 80% execution. It's written on the walls of everywhere, so you're constantly reminded that creativity is our reason for being, and um very much so it's investing in the next stage of talent. And everybody I've seen, it's I have to say, like you should come in and have a look at it because it makes you feel so alive and inspired, going, Do you know what? This is a brilliant industry, and if I could choose my career again, I would do this again.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

Brilliant. Well, I think um one of the things we I know you and I are gonna look at is whether or not we can expand the barn offer uh and get, you know, with a a bit more help from a few more agencies, even more students involved, because it is the lifeblood of of the creative uh the next creative generation, I should say. It's a bit like a football team, if you think about it. If you haven't got a good academy and you're not growing your own, you know, it you you're at a disadvantage if you're just buying people in from everywhere and and paying high prices.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

And the bit I would stress is the training. So sometimes teams are brought in in a placement and they're just left to kind of work out how to do it. And and I I think that's irresponsible. I think the thing that is really important is that they get a brilliant training. They understand it's not a really easy industry. They understand that it's not your first idea, it's probably your hundredth idea. It's like there's no sugarcoating it. It's not like, in fact, they probably work longer in harder hours than some. I'll say nothing, I'll get myself into trouble. But like there there is, you know, great work is hard work and that and they understand that, but they're trained and protected. Because the worst thing that can be happened is they're thrown into be resource and a pitch. Just that's not fair. If we're actually committed to investing and training in them, they will be better. The the problem is that I think if you plunk a team in and hope for the best, like anything, that's probably not going to work out, or only the hardcore will probably survive that. And God knows who you're gonna miss in in an environment like that.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

I mean, no conversation in advertising uh is complete without mentioning AI. Um and I'm thinking as you talk about these young creatives learning their craft, what kind of world they're going into and whether AI is going to play a bigger part in the creative process. I'm sure it will. But how I mean what's your sort of you're standing on top of the mountain looking looking into the future.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

What what how do you see when these kids are who are like in their early twenties now, in ten years' time, what do you think their world's gonna be like when it comes to creativity and well I think they're all using AI now anyway, you know, like I don't I feel like it'll just become part of how they work. And I think for many of us it is part of of of how we work. But as we've heard from lots of great sources, that if we all have the same tools, so the tools have gotten better, arguably. Um we creativity will be the reason why one thing will stand out or an idea will stand out over the other. The experience, the knowledge, knowing the right questions to ask, like they're the things that are going to be paramount because technically we could all produce the same stuff, but then it'll be the same and nothing's going to stand out. So I think you have knowledge is power and AI. You have to know it. You can't have your head in the sand, and you know, that is just the way it is. We're all using it anyway, whether we, you know, whether we like it or not. Sometimes it's like we use it for something we call the zig index, because obviously BBH is all about ZAG. So if we do a whole gimme category, it it you know, and we work through the prompts and everything, and it turns out an AI ad based on the beer category. And we'll go, so let's not do that, shall we?

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Because of the Because that just it takes all the conventions and creates uh an idea that pretty much is an amalgam of everybody else.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

And it is terrifying because you go, Yeah, I've seen that ad about a hundred times, in fact. So, but that's knowing the right questions to ask, and then go, well, how do we better that? You still need creativity and you still need the ability to decipher what is a good idea and what isn't. So the risk is anyone can do it is just nonsense. Because creative people are tend to be slightly wired differently and have a uh come to you with things sometimes that you go, Jesus, where was that in your head? But it's so exciting. We're not there yet. So it's it's and not or and yeah, no, I I completely agree.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

I think the certainly at the moment and and as far as we can see into the future, and having just come back. From Ostend for the South By uh festival. I I didn't see anything there that made me think, you know, human creativity is about to be surpassed. But, you know, I think humans plus AI at the moment is is better than just AI or just humans. I think that we can live with that.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Totally. And like all I say is AI, whatever was, you know, in vogue 18 months ago is totally different now. So, you know, there's a lot of claimed experts in AI. I feel like we're just as much experts because the more you experiment, the more you kind of get to understand the parameters and the possibilities. And it that that that power is in your control, not being told that this is the way it is. And I feel that that's the bit that it's so new and vibrant and changing all the time that you you'll be the next expert if you just stay on top of it. So that's what I think as well.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Yeah, and as you say, I mean, when you were talking about that beer um ad that AI could create, or you could do the same for an airline or a car ad, you know, we can we can see them in our minds, and that's pretty pretty much what AI is doing.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

A supercharged version of that. But the disruption that comes from being able to think in, you know, well, outside the box to use the cliche, it that's really when things happen, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Yeah, and and insight. Great work comes from great insight, and great insight comes from people who have different lives and experiences, which is why diversity is so critical in the output of the work as well. That's nuanced. That's so nuanced. It's like my experience to your experience, totally, totally different. And when you can see that in work, that is like it talks about a topic that because somebody has had that experience, it's delivered in such a different and interesting in a way that I would never have thought about it. That's that's the power of humanity. That's what we have, and we've got to protect that at all costs and make sure that we're, you know, finding those gems in the work and putting that out there. And that's when you go, Jesus, I have never thought about whatever it is like that before. Yeah. That's magical.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

And I think the the the moment when the hairs go. I mean, we I mean, I worked in agencies pretty much all my life. You worked in agencies a long time now. When you see work, you see work, you say, that's good, that's pretty good, that's not any good, and then suddenly you'll see something.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

And it might not even be on brief. You'll see something, and the hairs on the back of your neck will stand out, and it's so exciting.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

And I literally can't imagine any world in which that could happen from a machine. I agree. Um, there's something it's a bit like a piece of music or any kind of form of art, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

Absolutely. Unless we all start procreating and there's no more people, then I don't really know. For now, we need people and we need human creativity.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

Okay, so um let me let me ask you again about being the president of the IPA.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

It's a it's a it's a great sort of recognition from your peers. Um you what's the thing that's exciting you the most about you know the next two years?

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Well, um I'm delighted to be president, I should say, and it is an honour and and you know, one that I've taken very seriously. And I'm ex do you know, I'm excited about putting a bit of optimism and life and joy back into what we do because it's gotten a bit miserable if I'm honest. So uh I'm a uh I'm an eternal optimist, and uh I also go, I think we are working in the best industry. I believe if I got to choose my career again, I would do this. I absolutely love it. And I think, you know, in work, work is what we have, work is the difference in solving a major business problem. Um when you see something, how it makes you feel, all of that stuff. It's just it's just incredible. And we have it, that's what we do. And somehow we've managed to forget about it or not give it as much love. So I'm not asking, hopefully not asking people to do very much in my presidency, apart from just believing the work, championing the work, and championing the creative people who come up with the work because they deserve help and support and energy and money and training and everything because you know they made our industry. Let's let's make sure they feel that they are as critical as they once were.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

And I think that uh is where the value is as well. I mean, if you know you're an advertiser uh working with an agency, uh that we all now want to go into the whole reductive nature of um procurement and looking for the cheapest possible way of doing everything. But basically the value they're going to get from us is through the ability to think of things that they can't think of themselves. Even in the media world, let alone the creative world, if we are able to continually show them creativity as a superpower, then they will understand that it's worth paying for. And it's adding tremendous value to their business.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

And you know, CEOs of you know, maybe retail sectors or car industry are all faced with the same huge challenges. Like there are challenges everywhere. And, you know, having a creative in the room could unlock a way to solve a business problem that you'd never have thought of before. And that is their competitive advantage as well. Um, so you know, I've lucky enough that I know and a lot of our clients, the CEOs are really engaged in what their creative output is because it does so much for the business. And you know, if you're engaging people and consumers bringing them something in a different way, is a great way to stand out, and everybody's looking to stand out. So, and then that means he can charge more for the creative product because the risk is we're all in a you know price war. I'm like, I don't know if you've ever done some building to your house, but you're gonna get three prices for your kitchen, and the lowest one, you're gonna know it's low as possibly gonna be the worst experience of your life. And and I feel like somehow we seem to forget daily life and then think we can beat each other down on price. It's not a good way to be. Um, and I think great creativity is worth the investment, it is worth the money, it is worth spending more on, because if it's really good, it lasts you longer rather than having to do it six months later because it's not particularly affects you.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

That's true. I mean, to go back to my football analogy, if you were in charge of recruitment in Manchester United, Jesus. You it's a big job. You wouldn't be looking for the footballers that cost you the least amount of money, you know, because there's a reason they cost you the least amount of money, and I think that has crept into our game. And we need to we need to do everything to help.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

And that hurts as a man hurts as a manufactured fan as well. Why did you have to bring that up, Paul?

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Well, I just I I support QPR and I want to drag everyone down to my link.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Okay, right, fair enough. We're there.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

Um okay, so before we before we close, we've talked a lot about creativity. Um can you talk about a few? I mean, you mentioned Levi, so don't use Levi's. Can you can you give me a couple of uh examples of things that really have inspired you? Creative ideas that of the kind that perhaps meet the description that we were gen generically describing earlier in the conversation. What are the what are the ideas that really have excited you?

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Uh I think KFC work is a brilliant idea. I I mean I remember watching it in the Caribou Cup final and it came on, and it was like everybody was my whole family were just watching it going, wow, what the hell was that? So that was just a like I just think hats off to the the clients. They are dude. And that I mean that is yeah, some proper, proper work like the Christmas app was funny, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 29:34

When people have had all their um socials about should we do Turkey at Christmas?

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, there's there's so some some some great work there. Um I also look at you know, a little bit closer to home, like you know, clowns for Audi was just one of those beautifully, simply, gorgeously crafted execution that was, you know, there are clowns on the road, so have a safer car. Like just unbelievably pure. Uh I love what we do for Paddy Pair because it's there, there to entertain. And my God, do they entertain? So that's just knowing your purpose is just to make people laugh and feel good. It's it's a great thing to work on. So there's I think there's loads of brands doing really, really great and exciting work. I I just feel let's have all of them, not just some of them.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Yeah, let's have the rising tide and all the ships going up. I couldn't agree more. Look, it's been great talking to you, but I'm I've got two years of this. Um I'm really excited about your agenda.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Sorry, Paul. Two years.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

No, we're gonna have a great time. And I hope in two years' time we can look back on this and and see that we've made some real uh headway into this important, if not absolutely critical, part of the I hope so.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

I hope so. I think we will.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

Great. Well, on that note, thank you very much, and here's to the next two years.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Brilliant, thank you.