New Business Diaries: Gareth Evans and Becky McKinlay

In the latest episode of the IPA New Business Diaries podcast, Cogent Managing Director Gareth Evans is joined by Becky McKinlay, MD at Oystercatchers. Together they explore all things new business, agency search and selection and how brands optimise their agency partnerships.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:10

Welcome to the New Business Diaries brought to you by the IPA New Business and Marketing Group. In this series, we speak to some of the biggest names in our industry on the hot topics of the new business world. I'm Gareth Evans from Cogent, and in this week's podcast, I'm talking to Becky McKinley, Managing Director of Oyster Catchers, about all things new business, agency search and selection, and how brands optimise their agency partnerships. For those of you who don't know Becky, let me tell you a bit about her first before we dive in. Becky joined Oyster Catchers from AlphaGrid, part of the Financial Times Group, where she was managing director for creative content and the storytelling studio. She's worked both in client side and agency roles in advertising, communications and media, including senior management roles at The Economist, WPP, and leading her own communications agency, Ambition London. Welcome, Becky.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

So we'll hopefully start with something easy. You took the reins at Oyster Catchers last year. Can you tell us a bit about your background, which is better than the bit about your background I just gave, uh, and what it was that brought you to the world of intermediary and how's it been so far?

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Gosh, a lot in one question there, Gareth. Um, so I my career as as from the intro that you've given me shows I've dotted around a bit. Um I've worked client side, agency side, in-house kind of production and content studio side. And I think the first seed of being planted in my mind about becoming an intermediary actually came from a long-standing friend and colleague of mine, Richard Temple at um JAA Media, who uh some of you some of you may know. And as I was looking at what I might do after I left the FT, he said, It's obvious you should be an intermediary and go and shake that world up. And genuinely it had never crossed my mind. Um, I'd love to say that I then set off on a determined path to make it happen, but I didn't at all. Okay. Four months later, I happened to get a phone call saying, Could you come and look after oyster catchers? And it absolutely made sense.

SPEAKER_03 2:14

Slight serendipity then?

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Yeah, or just lack of planning. Um but but no, I think it was. I mean, uh as an intermediary, I think it's really helpful if you've worked certainly agency side and certainly client side. And within agencies, I've been a new business director, I've been a marketing director of agencies, as well as being an account handler. Um in-house, I've worked with creative production studios, and as a client, I have helped run some big pitches. So it's sort of when when you look at it retrospectively, it makes absolute sense. And of course, you know, being an intermediary i i is the right destination for me, but but it wasn't something that I purposefully set out to do.

SPEAKER_03 2:58

Okay, well it's it's um good that it's brought you here though. Okay, so could you tell us a little bit about Oyster Catchers and and the approach you have and how you work with clients and agencies?

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Uh of course. So um I was very fortunate to come into Oyster Catches, which was a brand that I had known and respected from afar for a long time. Um, certainly one that when I was running my own agency was very keen to understand more about. I think Oyster Catchers has got a really, really positive reputation in the marketplace. It's a you know it's a long-standing brand, it has um strong values, a track record of doing some fantastic work to help partnerships. Um, but I think uh the one thing that surprised me when I joined Oystercatches is from the outside, everyone knows us for helping clients find new partners and running pitches and search and selection processes. But at least half of what we do isn't about that. At least half of what we do is working with clients to improve the existing relationships, to look at their own ways of working and how that might influence how they work with their agencies, looking at their rosters where efficiencies can be made, not just in terms of price, but in terms of working practices. And I think that has been really exciting for me because this isn't a model that is dependent on us agitating for pitches or telling clients to change. And when we can avoid a pitch on behalf of a client, and it's right to avoid a pitch, that is what we recommend. Um, so so that was a bit of a surprise as I got in and and and lifted the hood, and a really welcome one. Yes. Right? Because we all know how galvanizing the right pitches can be for agencies and clients, but also what huge pressure it puts on the pipes of both partners. And really, like any relationship, um, a change is probably only the thing to recommend when every other avenue has been explored.

SPEAKER_03 5:05

Yeah, that's so that's it's interesting, it's part sort of classic intermediary or you know, a broker, if you like, but also a significant part of it is about consultancy and yeah, and I think we start with consultancy.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

You know, it it is the the clients that pay our fees. So we start with consultancy and and intermediary services are one part of that consultancy that we might give. But the word that I kind of hate when I hear it in the market is oh, we act as a matchmaker. I'm like, we're not a matchmaker, we're much more, or we should be much more than that. And if that's not how we're seen as oyster catchers or as other kind of intermediary consultants in the marketplace, then clearly we need to wake her work harder to demonstrate the value that we're bringing in those consultative services.

SPEAKER_03 5:48

Yeah, there's there's almost a depth to it that isn't um isn't isn't communicated by that kind of terminology, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Yeah, I think that's right. And and also you you'll appreciate there's a lot of kind of uh commercial confidentiality around what we're doing, so we can't always talk about our consultancy projects. That the things that hit the press, the things that campaign or marketing week talk about is when there is a change or when there is a pitch. But when there has been a 12-month consultancy process that has resulted in something actually quite different but not newsworthy, people never hear about.

SPEAKER_03 6:21

Of course, yeah, yeah. Okay. So it's it's like you said, you use the phrase getting under the hood and looking at you know the the the stuff that you do. Sometimes clients might only get that view by getting in and in getting under the hood with you to look at it.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Absolutely. And sometimes the agencies that they are already working with um will will know about it, but but the rest of you know the world rightly shouldn't. You know, we need to maintain commercial confidentiality in business.

SPEAKER_03 6:43

Gotcha, understood, yeah, absolutely. Uh we're sort of touching on it a little bit here, and I'm I'm interested to know whether from your you know your your your previous roles and then coming into the intermediary and sort of uh understanding everything that it entails, whether also you're seeing any of the kind of changes that seem to be prevalent. In the press at the moment, there's there's three conversations about change that seem to be preoccupying the new business community. They being the role of the marketing direction CMO is seems to be changing, uh the role of agencies and um the agency landscape that's changing. And then in the middle somewhere, the intermediary landscape seems to be changing. And I just wondered if there is there any particular trends you're seeing in in that kind of under that change banner that's influencing how you're working with clients and agencies?

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Great question, Gareth. I I think I've joined at an incredibly dynamic time. You know, the change in agency landscape, be that you know, mega mergers, smaller mergers, focus on new capabilities, different propositions, I don't think has ever been more active, but I can't speak from a position of I've had this purview for the last 20 years. Sure. But but but having been in the industry for that amount of time, it it feels that this is an absolutely pivotal and very, very dynamic time. Um the role of the CMO has changed, I think, faster in the last year, maybe, that than ever before. And actually, if you go back 15 years, even the title CMO didn't really exist. You know, the marketing director was the most senior person in an organization. Now they are in the C-suite, rightly so, in my opinion, sitting at that table, and therefore their role has had to change because they have now got to speak the language of the C-suite, they've got to demonstrate the financial returns and hold that position very, very carefully at the C-suite. And with the you know, explosion of different channels and you know, the the endless debate about the long and the short of it, the CMO's role is much more, you know, traditional business leadership in some elements than I think previously it it was seen before. So that means they have to ask different things of their agencies, um, and they have to understand the broader world of business as well. So that's a fundamental shift, I think.

SPEAKER_03 9:08

And also, therefore, it's incumbent on we as as a on us as agencies to be demonstrating value in different ways to that audience who have different agendas and and uh and and prerogatives and and whatnot in terms of their role.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Absolutely right, and I think that that one of the things that um when I moved into one of my first client-side jobs, the realization to me was God, only actually 20% of my time is talking to agencies. And yet when I was agency side, I thought my relationship was all the CMO ever had to think about. But actually, they've got a million other things on their mind in terms of managing PLs and doing all of the other work you need to do. And so being that agency partner that can be as effective as possible in the amount of time that the CMO has got to spend with them is fundamentally important. I mean, irrespective of the fact the CMO best part of their day should be with their agency partners, they can't allow it to be the whole part of their day.

SPEAKER_03 10:09

Of course, yeah, yeah. It's just in itself, isn't it? Make make that's a bit of an adage, isn't it? But the make the bit of the day that the CMO spends with you the best part of their day.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 10:21

Um, uh uh fully um aware and and cognizant of the fact that you've said that that m only a percentage of what you do is about that kind of traditional agency search and selection bit, but I'm also aware of our audience of this podcast. That'll be quite an important thing and uh and of great interest to them. Um given some of those dynamics and changes that we've just talked about, I wondered if it's possible even to identify what are the triggers that tend to set off a conversation about it's time for a new agency. Are there any themes and trends you're seeing in terms of what gets that bit of the conversation going?

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Um there are there are lots of reasons, right? A strategic investment or change in direction by the business that is operating will often trigger a look at have we got the right partnerships in place to support us on that journey. Equally, a change in CMO very often triggers, not always, but but very often triggers it. Um the reason I would say that comes to us most frequently when a CMO or a head of marketing or procurement comes to us and says, we think we need to look at our our suppliers and our partners in this area, it's typically, and it sounds so obvious, but typically we're just not feeling as loved as we used to. Now, whether that is in the time being spent or the care for the craft or the results that the work is delivering, um, it just feels that at a certain point in certain stages in relationships, the client feels less loved than they used to. And that may be true in in in lots of different kinds of relationships and partnerships, whether they're in your personal life or your professional love, but uh life, not love, life, um, but more than anything, it is yeah, it just feels like the shine is gone. And whether that comes through um, you know, great clients deserve great agencies.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Um, you know, and and agencies and clients sort of deserve the relationship that they have with each other to a certain degree. But just making sure that the client feels that their agenda is understood, that they are being prioritised, that they are being listened to, typically that's the reason where it's just not working for us anymore.

SPEAKER_03 12:43

It's amazing, isn't it, when the you know the impact of just not getting the nuts and bolts things right, the absolute basics, can inspire up.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

It's hard to maintain momentum, right? There's a honeymoon period in every different kind of new relationship you go into, and maintaining that enthusiasm, excitement, dedication does come down to both parties.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Um and and so uh we we have to and we are in a very fortunate position as a as an intermediary consultant to hold that mirror up to the client as well and have those difficult conversations of you may not be feeling it actually for these behaviours that you're displaying or these actions that you've taken. Um because you know, longer term we will go in and we'll consult and then we will walk away so we can have those difficult conversations that might be harder for an agency partner to have as well.

SPEAKER_03 13:35

And then that gives you um uh a true uh uh and reflective insight into what's going to take the the better relationship forward or in your relationship.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Absolutely, and you know, if if if this is a fundamental thing for you, Mr. or Mrs. Client, this agency won't be able to help deliver that. And actually you might need to look at these five who are better geared up to support you in that area.

SPEAKER_03 13:59

Sometimes that could be nobody's fault. We've talked about how rapidly things are changing. It's just you s what some days, you know, you one day you look around and go, everything around me's changed, and therefore the things I'm doing need to change.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

Absolutely. And you do, you know, what's that definition of madness? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

SPEAKER_03 14:14

Yeah, exactly that. Okay, um, so then so there are a number of triggers that might start off a conversation about it maybe time to look uh at what else is out there in terms of agencies. Um how I don't know if this is an easy question by the way, but we'll try it. How how do you personally, but you as oyster catchers, um, keep that kind of uh whole of market view of what's going on in agency land? Because we know that's changing a lot, and and and so yeah, how how can you keep abreast of what's happening?

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Well, it's not a perfect science. Um, and we as oyster catchers absolutely believe in understanding at a granular level the agencies, which means we have a team dedicated to knowing agencies. As MD, I probably see certainly more than five, often more than ten agencies in any one week.

SPEAKER_03 15:06

Busy week.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Busy week. Um, and we, you know, where we can, we go into their offices and their spaces and really kind of feel the culture. Uh, you can't know an agency by through spreadsheet, is my opinion. You've got to you've got to get in and understand it, see the work, meet the people, understand the processes. So um we have a team that are dedicated to do to doing that. We're never going to know all of them all of the time, and right now more and more independents are are speaking up, and and some of them don't, you know, want to spend that much time with us, and that's fine, not in a I think in a suspicious way, but they've got their priorities too. So um we we go and meet agencies, we ask them to stay in touch with us, so we ask them to send, you know, put us on their newsletters, send us their latest case studies and creds, you know, and we really look at those. Obviously, we hold um a database of agencies and we populate that with the new information that we have. So it's not a one-way street uh at all. We hold uh things called accelerator sessions where agencies will come in and either present their new creds or a new proposition or test things on us. Um, and that's a really interesting exchange because um, you know, sometimes agencies will be about to reveal a new thing saying we found this totally unique unique area that we're gonna talk about, and we're just saying, mmm, the last five agencies in your space have said a very similar, very similar thing. Maybe that's not unique. Um, but that's a really good exploration and and where people where agencies can bring us in early as they're on that path, it helps us go, okay, well, that could be interesting for the client that we're talking about us as well. So so we we cover as much as we can. I think in the past, oyster catchers have been guilty of being too London-centric. Um, and that has been maybe to do with the size of the business or the types of client engagements that we've attracted. We are looking at how we address that now, and it's great as an example to be here today. Um, and you know, from from I started off life working at an agency in Bristol. Um I know uh that great work exists well beyond London. Um and and and so I'm looking at how can we do that better given still the size of the team that that that we are, and we need to make sure we don't spread ourselves too thinly because we want to be as helpful to the industry as we can be, and that means we need to commit the right resource to the right places and spaces.

SPEAKER_03 17:39

Yeah, great. Thank you for preempting what was going to be my next question. Ah, excellent about uh the the wealth of agency talent and and great work that's coming out of you know agencies all over the country. So that's it's good to hear that you've got that focus as well, particularly as we sit here in uh in a studio in sunny Warwickshire. Um very good. Okay, um can we sort of focus in on the pitch itself now? Um because that's another thing that gets a lot of uh airtime and discussion, doesn't it, both in the press and and across the industry. Um I wanted to talk a bit about the sort of pitch process and whether the traditional pitch, for want of a better phrase, is is sort of still fit for purpose and whether you've got a a view on that.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

It's the big question, isn't it? There's a debate on Tuesday that I'm going to uh at the House of Commons about uh about this very thing, and I made a comment to campaign last week about when agencies choose not to re-pitch. Um so is it fit for purpose? It can be, truthfully. A well-run pitch, I think, can be galvanizing for both parties.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Um a poorly run pitch um or a pitch that shouldn't be a pitch is detrimental to both parties. Okay, so a pitch that shouldn't be a pitch is too low budget, too high are expectations, we need something quickly, that's a project. And if you are a good client who asks the right questions of a potential, you don't need to put them to pitch, right? You can back yourself to make the right decision based on the information that you have in in in front of you. So um things shouldn't be masked as pitches where they are projects. That's a that's a key thing uh for me. Um I think when a pitch is well run, and typically from my experience before being an intermediary, and in what I'm hearing now as an intermediary, agencies often feel that the best pitches are where the right intermediaries are involved because they manage the client on timescales, on the level of information required. They help provide a truly level playing field, they stop kind of round-the-corner chat or unfair advantages happening and actually focus on the business, creative, media, commercial need. So uh, can we make can we make pitching less onerous for both parties? Yes, we can, as intermediaries, that is our responsibility, um, and to enable the very best decisions and best outcomes to come from it. So um I don't see a world where we're seeing the end of pitches, um, I'm afraid, um, but I do see a world where we are there are a more efficient way to run pitches. Uh, I was asked uh recently about do I see a return to paid for pitches? And I'm old enough to remember that. Um and I think in some instances that may come back around, but it will come back around where it isn't a retained relationship, it is for you know an unspecified amount of money. So there was a client that I heard of recently that was asking a uh an agency to pitch in return for IP. So what the client was saying is we want your best and most brilliant ideas. If we can't use them, we don't want you selling them to a competitor.

SPEAKER_03 21:09

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

So they're taking the ideas out of the market. Now that's an interesting debate.

SPEAKER_03 21:14

Yeah, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 21:15

Um in the client's mind, it allows the agency to put their absolute best foot forward because whether this work runs or not, they're gonna be paid for it. But an agency goes, but that brilliant idea deserves to be seen, and it it may not be seen.

SPEAKER_03 21:31

Yeah, absolutely. But I mean it it it's but rather that than a situation where everyone isn't transparent about what's gonna happen and where the process is going to end up and what might happen to the idea or what have you, you know. At the very least, it has transparency around it. But it like you say, it creates an interesting debate.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Yeah, and agencies are in control of their own destiny in that regard. You can choose not to do it. You can choose not to pitch, you can choose not to engage in a pitch that is run that way. I think you know, your word, Gareth, about transparency is what I am. Slightly obsessed by in this role. There is a particularly in in in the the the world of intermediaries, there has not been enough transparency either to clients or for agencies. And for however long I do this job for, and I hope it is a long time, you know, if I am ever accused of not being transparent, I will know I have failed because that is what you know, transparency, fairness, impartiality is what should be held true. If it as a market of intermediaries, we have value in the marketplace. That is our value.

SPEAKER_03 22:32

That's um reassuring to hear from over here on the agency side of the fence, definitely. But it will be for client clients as well, knowing that that's our a process, it can be run. It should be run.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Well, I think so, and I think some of the things that we need to do, you know, for a business like Oyster Catchers, as as I said, not every intermediary has the same model as we do, where clients are paying our fees, um, they need to know where our value is. You know, why why are they going to add another X percent to their marketing budget or their agency budget by including an intermediary? Yes. They need to understand our value. And if our value is about, you know, that impartiality, we are giving you a true view of the marketplace for every agency that we have spent time with got to know and understood, not just the agencies that are paying us to represent them. Yeah, okay. That's not transparent to the client.

SPEAKER_03 23:20

Okay. Um, this brings us probably hopefully neatly onto the next uh question, which is which hones in a bit on the pitch positive pledge, which you'll know that we as the IPANU Business and Marketing Group are very passionate about, having been uh part of its birth. Um yeah, just what's your views on it? Have you seen it being uh sort of uh employed in the market? You know, how how's is there is there traction around it?

SPEAKER_01 23:43

I don't think there's enough traction around it. So we are supporters of it as well as oyster catchers. Um we certainly apply those principles. I'm not sure that um where it is not being applied that people are being held to account for it. And I'm not quite sure, you know, not as an author of it myself or you know, but I am a supporter of those principles. We run according, you know, we run our pitches in accordance. And we were doing that anyway. Um, but I think that there are too many both agencies and clients who are too hungry for fast change, quick results, and therefore they're not subscribing to so I wonder how enforcement sounds the strong word, but actually I think maybe a little bit more um kind of promotion and support around the pitch positive pledge is required now in order that it maintains its impact.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

I mean, yeah, that's not an unfamiliar sort of story, and it's it's definitely something that's been been part of the conversations we've had around it. I think um uh watch this space because there is work being done on what the next sort of iteration and the next support is for the pledge, and we we as a group remain obvious, obviously passionate supporters for it. We hope the you know more of the industry will do the same.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

So yeah, and let us know if we can support on that.

SPEAKER_03 24:56

Yeah, great, brilliant. Um so we're um we're we're rattling through here and and and uh and uh it brings me to perhaps the the last couple of questions. I wondered if probably without naming any names, I wondered if you you had any examples of where clients have run um interesting or different sort of pitch processes, either way you've been involved or we haven't, um, where you know we can minimize that the potential negative impact on agencies that are taking part, because there are some the pitch positive prejudice sort of highlighted that, but also it has got the best and out of those agencies and the it's been a great process for everybody and delivered a brilliant result. So is there any ways in which people have sort of shaken up the process a bit to make it better?

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Um I I am going to anonymise this one, but but but it's but it's very recent and one that we have run, and I'm I'm not just trying to say that you know the only way to run a pitch is through oyster catchers at all. But they are the ones you're likely to know best, right? They are the ones I'm likely to know best. Um which was uh an unusual one for us. So it was for a um it was actually for media and and oyster catchers, you know, historically people thought we only ran creative pitches, but we do media and increasingly PR and production, which is fantastic. Um but it was for a media pitch and it was for a 12-month-only engagement. Okay. Um a very well-known brand and a very exciting opportunity, but it was for 12 months only. And a lot of media agencies kind of looked at that and said, Well, why would we want to invest what we're going to need to for that for that engagement? Um, but the client was absolutely brilliant in the way that they briefed, and and uh, you know, we we do spend a lot of time with our clients helping them get to the brief because at the first point it was like I'm not sure how many of the the the stature and size of agencies that you want to are going to be happy to enter into a 12, effectively a 12-month fixed-term contract. It wasn't um, they wrote such an exciting brief that enabled the agency to kind of go, do you know what? This is only for a year, but actually we can do something properly exciting within this scope and in the terms of this and with that budget. So that that for me was an interesting one because it felt like quite a difficult one to get the right agencies behind it, but it the work on that the client did on the brief to inspire that when we went to market, everybody that we hoped would be excited by it. Yep were. So that was great. I think another one I just um and and maybe it's slightly tangential to your question, Gareth, but um I often kind of get asked in some of these about what what do you do about incumbents on the business and when are incumbents? And I think this is something that probably needs a little bit more transparency as well. So um in a recent process, um uh very good agency, client felt not not right as the incumbent to be included on the list. Agency extremely upset by that decision um and and and pretty upset with us as an intermediary, and and I would stress that the client makes the decision. Yeah, we advise and talk through and help inform those decisions, but but but in this instance, but it but it then made me realize that we need to be clear about you know how we talk to clients about that, and and so we have a slight rule of thumb, and this just might be interesting for people. So when a client says we definitely want to include an uh incumbent on that, it's like okay, is that fine? Is this just a statutory review and you kind of you have to do that? No, no, no, we just we love them and we really want them to win. So why are you going to pitch? Question. Like, why why are you going to pitch? Uh, or we definitely don't want them included, you know. Um, and and that's a that's a clearer thing, but that and that shouldn't come as a surprise to the agency, but you you'd be surprised how often it does. So our rule of thumb is when we're talking to a client about an incumbent, are they 70% likely to retain this business? Yeah. Because if they're 70% likely to, it's worth their while investing in trying to rewin it, but it's also fair on the new agencies who are pitching for it. Because if they're 90% likely, no point, not fair on the other agencies, work on the relationship, improve it.

SPEAKER_03 29:13

It's not a pitch process situation, that's a relationship.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

Absolutely. And very occasionally clients will say, we have to include the incumbent in in the pitch uh because otherwise we're gonna have a break in service. We're gonna tell them they're not included, and the new agency won't emboard, and we're worried about what happens in the middle. Well, we can help fix that, right? We can help fix that. Don't put them through a pitch if they're not gonna win it.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

And we're, you know, I think that transparency is important that people understand it from us. If you are an incumbent on the business of a pitch that we are running, you have a really good opportunity to retain it, but the other agencies have every chance of winning it too.

SPEAKER_03 29:49

Yeah, I think that comes back to the transparency bit, as you say. It's important. And it it's it's a really tricky one that it always has been, hasn't it? The whole how do you make that decision as an agency if you're invited to re-pitch for an existing piece of well this stands to reason. We we believe we've got, if not a fully brilliant relationship, we've definitely got what was a brilliant relation, the and the and the kernels and stuff, and we're proud of the work, and you know, we we know we can go again and we can do this.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

It can be the most galvanizing thing of all to pitch and re-win, and it can realign teams and it can get that momentum going again. Um i if if the context around it is right, and if it's not, then don't repitch.

SPEAKER_03 30:24

Yeah. By the way, coming back to your first part of the that answer, we've been going through a bit of an exercise recently of going back through older uh pitch briefs and just having a look. And you can it's weird in retrospect how you can pull out the themes and go, Well, of course that was always going to be a brilliant relationship where we could do great work. Look at the brief. Look at the pitch brief. It's almost like you can you can you can tell. Sometimes you you put the lens of pitch enthusiasm over everything.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:50

Um and it maybe prevents you reading between the lines sometimes and being really honest about is this right for us. Um but uh yeah, it wasn't real that was an interesting exercise to go back and go, well, of course it makes it makes perfect sense. You can see the line running through now.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Yeah, and that that that that interrogation, those cultural alignment, that briefing is is just so important. And we, you know, we again as an intermediary or consultant, we also help train clients on how to write better briefs, yeah, how to provide better feedback, how to manage their stakeholders as part of that process, because that is fundamental to a good long-term working relationship.

SPEAKER_03 31:25

But doesn't that sometimes come back to it's not a uh an unwillingness and it's not an inability, it's sometimes just time. We talked about the the role of the senior marketeer earlier, and sometimes it's just you know, I know I've got to get this thing done, but I've got so many other things, and yes, of course it's important, of course it's critical, but I I this the the a really well-written brief takes a lot of time and headspace and which sometimes just isn't there.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

Yeah, and it needs to be prioritized. It needs to be prioritised.

SPEAKER_03 31:51

Okay, we are um we're within touching distance now. Um and I don't know if this is an easy question either. Um I've written the word unusual here. So um are there any really unusual examples, good or bad, of agency selection processes, be they pitch or not, that you've seen, heard about, are worth sharing here on the podcast?

SPEAKER_01 32:11

I'm gonna have to be careful of this answer, Gareth. Um look, I think every pitch is a bit unusual, isn't it? It's a slightly false environment pitching.

SPEAKER_03 32:20

Try explaining it to someone who doesn't work in the industry.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Exactly. Um, one observation I would have, and this may not be uh be about pitch, but the chemistry meeting is so important. And I think sometimes on both sides of the fence, people see it as a necessary stage. I reckon you well I can think of a recent example where pretty much it's been won at chemistry.

SPEAKER_03 32:57

Okay. Okay. Which is a lot.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

And it's been lost at chemistry.

SPEAKER_03 33:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

If you if you don't invest in those chemistry meetings, you are behind the gain line before you start it. And and the chemistry meeting is there for both parties. If it doesn't feel right as an agency at chemistry meeting, it's probably not going to be right and you don't have to keep going.

SPEAKER_03 33:19

Yeah, true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

You really don't have to keep going, but be honest with yourself. Um that there is one that that that that recently in the in the chemistry meeting you could have called it at that at that point. But I'm not sure sometimes I think agencies are so focused on getting through the final piece that they don't actually reflect after chemistry and read go back and kind of reread the room of is this partnership going to deliver us what we need and the client what what what they need? But the that chemistry meeting is is so important.

SPEAKER_03 33:54

Um so maybe that's not an unusual No, but I was gonna say based on what you said earlier about confidentiality, I expect I'm not gonna be able to draw you on any specific behaviours in a in a chemistry meeting that might have um influenced its outcome.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Um just being prepared.

SPEAKER_03 34:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

Being prepared. Um, you know, uh you would be surprised how many people think it is okay to be answering emails during sessions like that. Don't do that would be would be my top tip. Don't do that.

SPEAKER_03 34:24

Yeah, yeah, okay, fair enough. There's uh if we're gonna leave on one message to the agency landscape, don't do emails in chemistry meetings. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

And and nor should the client, truthfully, either. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brilliant. Okay, well that I think is um is is sound and robust advice. But um, this has been a really good chat and and lots lots in there for um our new business community to to take away with them. So thank you ever so much, Becky.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

Absolute pleasure, thank you for having me.