From Layoff to Financial Independence: Doug Cunnington's FIRE Journey on His Own Terms | 084

From getting laid off in 2015 to building a life completely on his own terms, Doug Cunnington has one hell of a story.In this episode of The Extreme Personal Finance Show, I get to sit down with Doug to talk about escaping the corporate machine, building an online business from scratch, stumbling into the FI community in Longmont, CO and redefining what “success” and “productivity” actually mean.We dig into:• How a layoff pushed Doug into entrepreneurship

• The early days of online business, SEO wins, and huge mistakes

• Why corporate jobs trap your identity

• Delegation, control, sunk-cost bias, and the danger of chasing titles

• Life after FI: slowing down, sleep, health, walking, cooking, guitars, and finding real hobbies

• Why rest is productivity

• The impossible guilt of “not being busy”

• How Hallmark movies are the secret metaphor for Financial Independence (yes, really)

• Why men over 40 desperately need real friendships and community

• Building a life that feels good, not one that just looks good on LinkedInChris and Doug also riff on cooking, sous vide cooking, earplugs at concerts, band life, travel, health, and what they hope life looks like 20 years from now.If you’ve ever wondered what’s actually waiting for you on the other side of FI, this episode goes way deeper than money.Contact Chris:https://heavymetal.money⁠https://www.facebook.com/MoneyHeavyMetal⁠https://x.com/MoneyHeavyMetal⁠https://www.instagram.com/chrisluger⁠⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@heavymetalmoney⁠email: chris at heavymetal.moneyResources and Links:Mile Hi Fi Podcast⁠https://www.youtube.com/@MileHighFIPodcast⁠Pat Flynn ⁠https://www.smartpassiveincome.com⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@HomegrownHustle⁠⁠https://fourhourworkweek.com⁠⁠https://www.mrmoneymustache.com⁠Sleep Scores in iOS 26⁠https://support.apple.com/guide/watch/view-your-sleep-score-and-sleep-history-apded441a669/watchOS⁠⁠https://peterluger.com/pages/menus⁠⁠https://eargasm.com/⁠Hot Frosty⁠https://www.imdb.com/title/tt32359447/⁠A Clüsterfünke Christmas⁠https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14932820/⁠Lacey Chaberthttps://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000327/

Contact Chris:
https://heavymetal.money

https://www.instagram.com/heavy_metal_money/

https://www.youtube.com/@heavymetalmoney

https://www.facebook.com/chrisluger

email: chris at heavymetal.money

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

From layoff to legend, how Doug Cunnington built a fi life on his own terms. This week on the Extreme Personal Finance Show. All right, on the show today, I'm super excited. I'm hanging out with someone who I think is equal parts chill, sharp, and just a brilliant dude. And I'm talking about Doug Cunnington. After getting laid off in 2015, he built his own internet and affiliate marketing business and became a really smart SEO dude. He later landed in the Phi capital of the US, Long Long, Colorado, which is crazy. That's kind of the mecca of Phi people, kind of weird. But he fell right into that Phi world. And I think he's just a really grounded, thoughtful dude and um a great voice in the community. He also hosts the podcast Mile High Fi and talks about life after Fi and that type of thing. So I'm getting ready to shred with Doug. Doug, how you doing, man?

SPEAKER_02 1:01

I'm awesome and I'm I'm pumped to be here. Great intro. It sounds like uh I want to talk to this person, but then I realize it's me. And maybe you you've oversold it, but I I appreciate it. And I'm really uh it's been a pleasure to get to know you over the last couple of years, bumping into you at different events and stuff like that. So very excited to chat with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Thank you, man. I appreciate it. And uh same, same, you know. I mean, we both have kind of a mutual love of guitars and music and that type of thing. Um and what I would really like to know back in 2015, you got laid off. And most people, I think, would, okay, I need to find another job. Did you start going through that thought process in your head, or right away did you think, I'm gonna do my own thing? Like what was that process? What was that thought process for you back then?

SPEAKER_02 1:51

I wanted to do my own thing a hundred percent. And my wife, though, she she really encouraged me to find another job. But one thing, uh sort of a pivotal moment occurred a couple years before that. So in 2013, I found a podcast called Smart Passive Income with Pat Flynn.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Yes. Gateway drug.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

Gateway drug for so many of us, and it was yeah, just pivotal. So I didn't know anything about online marketing or making money online, and it honestly sounded like a scam. And I didn't have a strong interest in um, you know, side hustles or entrepreneurship. I was a corporate worker bee type doing my thing there. And I didn't love it, but I got interested and I got obsessed, and I listened to all the episodes that Smart Passive Income had out. I jumped off to you know different uh podcasts and blogs and stuff like that, and started a website in maybe a month or two. So I started a website and tried to implement the stuff that you know these podcasters and bloggers were talking about. So by 2015, I had a roller coaster ride. So it was like some early success, many failures, a lot of mistakes. I didn't know what I was doing, but I was getting little pieces of success. So occasionally I would make like pretty much like replacement income, like $6,000 in a month. And again, it would like drop and I didn't know what I was doing, but I had a taste of what I could do on my own. And like so many of us realize when we're in our corporate jobs, like there's sort of a path of, you know, maybe small raises, maybe some promotions, but it it was kind of capped. And when I started learning from the folks that were working online and entrepreneurs, there's kind of no cap. Like it scales in a way that doesn't have the same waste as a corporate environment. So I was like, oh, I don't, I don't have to do as good. I probably don't have to work as many hours, and I could probably earn a lot more money. So by 2015, I was like, I have had a few months where things have worked out really well, and I think I can make this work.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Right on. So you've you've kind of proven out the model, like, wow, you know, this uh this can this can work, right? Um so you like escaped the corporate, I don't know, the corporate machine, if you will. Um is there anything is there anything that you do miss about it though?

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Virtually nothing, especially when I look back now. It um there's a lot of you know wasted time. And the other part is I gradually went from, you know, working in an office and I did I was a management consultant and did project management for big software um implementations and such. And at times there was a lot of travel, which wasn't great, but I started working at home, like off and on, starting in maybe 2009 or 10. So I very gradually was like going into the office less and less, and pretty much was working remotely, like full time by 2013, something like that. I would go in the office every now and then. Um, all that to say there is some aspect of like the social portion where you're you're able to have a meeting like face to face. But by the time I left, we weren't even doing that. We were having like, you know, Zoom calls with people in the same building where we technically could meet face to face. But we did so sad.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

That's yeah, so sad.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

Yeah. So I don't miss anything about it. I learned some stuff along the way, but I don't miss anything about the corporate job, any of the old stuff. It's that it is weird because I'm just like, yeah, that whole thing was not that did not work for me.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Sure. Well, you said you learn stuff along the way. What's one of the biggest things that you learned about shifting to an entrepreneur doing your own thing?

SPEAKER_02 6:27

So I'll actually I'll give a couple couple things. Like to give credit to the corporate job, I did like learn the project management aspect, which is uh roughly it could be a wasteful uh admin situation where you're kind of shuffling papers. However, there's some good skills that you can learn as far as using templates and using systems and a repeatable process. And, you know, a lot of, I mean, all companies use some pieces that they find useful. It doesn't have to be too rigid. So when I started working for myself, I was able to take those project management and corporate ideas of like organizational structure and management and building a team and all that kind of stuff and transfer it over to what worked for me. And the other part that I learned is hey, I built a team before, I've done this a few times, and I don't have to prove anything. I don't feel like I need to have a big team. I don't want to have a big team. So I would have contractors work for me a little bit when I was, you know, self-employed after 2015, but I never hired people full time. I never wanted to have a really huge team. And I had some peers and some other folks that were kind of working, uh similar um, you know, solo entrepreneurs that wanted to build a team because they didn't have the corporate experience. And I felt like maybe they wanted to prove to themselves they could build a team, they could have, you know, this this big organization, but I was like, I don't want to do that. That was cool when it was on someone else's dime, but not my thing.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

Sure. I get I have like mixed feelings about that. So like I was just listening to another podcast and um it was like um it's it's called Homegrown Hustle. If anyone wants to listen to it, it's super rad. It's based here in the Minnesota area, but they talked to a bunch of business people and they were interviewing somebody and they talked about how when you're starting to think about what that team would be or what the scale would be, so that you don't build something and then have to rebuild it along the way, right? And so I'm I totally get that. And I think the way my brain works is that everything I build, everything that I work on, I think of if I were if someone were to pick me up and move me out of whatever I'm building, could that system still run? And that's what I really have uh channel, that's what I'm struggling with because I want to build systems in everything that I'm doing. So like, you know what, if I get hit by a truck, my things can still run. I I don't I don't know. That's just the way my brain works, but right.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

Yep, and you hear that too, you know, too that allows you to take really long vacations or kind of check out as well. I think four-hour work week like Tim Ferris covers this, like hey, if you left for six months, like maybe things will actually run better because you know you're not getting in the way anymore, which I mean that makes a lot a lot of sense in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

It's hard, dude. It's hard to give up control. I tell you what, to delegate is super hard because especially if you're like a solopreneur, because it's like you think that your way is the right way.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Right, right. And uh that made me remember. So I I got laid off and I was on the front end of layoffs, kind of. But what I did, you mentioned delegation. So I when maybe my last couple years, I had a team of maybe like six to fifteen people or so. And essentially I I delegated everything I possibly could. So I was hardly doing anything by the end. And I mean the thing is I wanted to like exactly what you said, if I went on vacation, people could handle it. And and in certain environments and certain uh especially consulting and that that kind of corporate structure, like in order for my reportees to get promoted, they needed to be doing my job. Like you have to do the job before they'll even let you try to get promoted. So I was helping them. A lot of my team got promoted, I coached them through it and all that, but I got laid off partially because uh I delegated everything and they're like, yeah, Doug's like, he only shows up for the meetings he has to do. And then the other thing that was really fun is um we worked remotely and basically I just moved and I was like, Hey, I moved to Montana. So if you want to like let's make it work out, but if not, then um I guess we'll figure, I mean, you could let me go or whatever you have to do. Um so they were gonna try and work it out, but they uh eventually, yeah, I made it like two more weeks. So getting laid off was fantastic. And I didn't realize it, but it was a sort of a pure F you money situation where I was like, I'm doing what I want and you guys could deal with it or not. And they were like, Oh, we're not gonna deal with it.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

So that is that is truly building on life on your terms. That's you know, because I mean, again, a lot of people they get laid off and they're immediately in panic mode. You know, they're posting on LinkedIn the same day, looking for opportunities, right? Like, I mean, you're pretty fortunate. I mean, did you always have that that fi mindset, like that you were building up kind of, you know what, if something happened, I can do this?

SPEAKER_02 12:02

No, no. So I was lightly aware of the you know, the fi idea and fire in general in 2014, and that was the first time my wife and I calculated our net worth. So 2014, we were starting to accumulate money and we didn't quite know what to do. We had I had a uh a financial advisor who was actually an insurance salesman. And then my wife had a financial advisor. So once we realized that our self-managed 401ks were performing way better than what those guys were doing, we fired them within like weeks because we calculated our net worth and we're like, oh yeah, we crushed it over the last couple of years. Yet our the pros are doing a horrible fucking job. So we fired them. My wife, um, she is she was a lot more financially minded and was paying a lot more attention and budgeted and did other stuff. I was a kind of a mess all over the place. Um, but calculated our net worth, realized we needed to figure out how to invest. My wife looked at index fund investing, so we went that route. So at that point, 2014, I think I saw Mr. Money Mustache's blog briefly, kind of looked at the index fund idea, started investing that way. Chris, I never read any else anything else on the blog. Like I was right there, and then I didn't pay attention. But a few years later, I did hear him pee on a few different podcasts, and then I was like, oh wow, this dude, he retired at 30, and I kind of was hip to what he was doing and listened to more interviews and stuff. And a couple years after that, we ended up moving to Longmont because my wife got a job in Boulder and it's a little cheaper over here.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Right on. Yeah, it was so like I don't know what the what the word is, almost like an epiphany. You mentioned smart passive income with Pat Flynn. Once I started learning that, and then Mr. Money Mustache, and then I started understanding oh, like if you're intentional with your money, you don't have to work until 65 and then die. I I was just like people do that, like, because I had never heard of that before until discovering like these people, like it was just amazing to me.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Yeah, and it's and remind me, when did you find Pete's blog and stuff like that?

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Yep, it was about the same time. So I got divorced in 2015, and so I started just educating myself 2015, 2016-ish. Bought my first rental property in 2017. So yeah, about the same time.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

And it's crazy, you know, like we weren't doing everything right. We made tons of mistakes, but like we were doing a couple things okay, and within, you know, 10 years, like our you and I, our financial situations completely flipped upside down, and like it's insane. Because if I, you know, I wouldn't believe the story if I was able to go talk to myself from 2015 or 14 or whatever, I would just it wouldn't make any sense to me.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

Oh, totally. And I think, I mean, some of the things, you know, I was doing right, I guess you could say it's just something I got from my dad. Like my dad was super like debt adverse, right? So like he didn't want debt, he paid off his mortgage and stuff. So I was like, okay, that's what I'm supposed to do. So for man, almost trying to think how many years like almost 10 years, I did on my my uh on my primary house, I did what they call the equity accelerator program. And so my mortgage company just had a program where I could pay the mortgage every two weeks and it just accelerated that equity. And it you know, it put me in a better spot to like, oh well now I'm gonna pay off whatever's left, which I wouldn't have done that without my dad telling me, yeah, it's you shouldn't have debt. So that was kind of one thing that were I what the one thing I did right, I guess. Yeah. So you leaving the corporate world, like I know that there's people out there, if they're listening to right, and they're like, Man, I'm I'm stuck in maybe maybe it's a high maybe it's a high paying job, but it's soul crushing, it's not what they want to do. You know, they find them like when do they admit to themselves, okay, I can change or my situation can change. What advice would you have for them? Oh gosh. I mean, I know your situation, you weren't necessarily dictating the timeline since they laid you off, but you know, I just I feel as though you know you were doing some of the things right, then you started to learn. And I think people I mean that's that's my biggest thing is I try to, you know, if someone was if someone was like me back then, what advice should I give them? And I guess one of the first things I would say is try to get rid of as much debt as you can. That's me. But right, some people I obviously it's controversial, like if you should pay off your mortgage or not. I understand that, depending on who you talk to. But yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

So I think one data point the the hang up that I'm having right now, you know, you ask me, hey, do you miss anything about the corporate gig? Zero. Like it and a lot of people that I bump into, especially my my closer friends, which makes sense, they have the same, they're like, no, I don't miss anything, and I would not get another job. That would be insane. And it doesn't, if it sounds crazy, but like we're on the other side, and there's very, very few people that I talk to that are retired early, that would want to go back to a corporate job. There's one or two folks, and I think those are just very positive people, and they, you know, they like the team or some aspect, they really get something out of it. And if you're in that mindset where you're like, I, you know, I dread this job, I'm depressed, and you just you feel like there's not a a way out. There's like you said, there's definitely a path. You know, part of it, if you're if you're in debt, um, that's that's one thing, you know, you got to get rid of that. But otherwise, like we talked about, Chris, like you can turn it around really quick, most of the time, of course, if you have a huge mountain of debt. But even then, like you hear the stories where people really shift their priorities. And the biggest thing is like wanting to change. And I'm not a big like self-help um enthusiast or anything like that. But over time, I think I probably heard the authors on podcast or other ideas around like changing and viewing things differently. And one of the big hangups, you know, people could have the very high salary, but they also have their identity tied up in their job. And they have their social structure tied up in their job and probably like the huge sunk cost of knowing, you know, you went to school for this thing, you got an MBA, and you're like, I put all this time into it, but that's a sunk cost. And if you could figure out all these cognitive biases, not all, but if you could figure out one or two, and one of them is sunk cost, and you could just fucking walk away from stuff, and you'll probably be better off, even if you put in all that investment before, like from this moment forward, like that's all that stuff's in the past, but like from this moment forward, like what's the best decision you could make? And it might be not earning as much money, earning, you know, whatever, a quarter or half or whatever, and then having like freedom on your time, having freedom on like the activities that you want to spend all that time on. And that's the biggest thing for me, just the autonomy. And one of the biggest reasons why I would not want to go back to a corporate job. Even if I picked the hours that I wanted to work or whatever, I would still have some rigidity and I would not like those hours, even if I picked them myself. So there's something about the autonomy where I'm like, you know what, today I want to go not do work at all, and I want to go um just walk around outside and do something aimless that seems like it's not productive at all.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Well, let's talk about that because I think you and I have had this discussion about how like I'm more of a rigid structure calendar type of guy. And do you think our culture, the way you know, our we're addicted to being busy, right? We're addicted to all this stuff, but you made it a choice to go on hikes, you're not rushing around, you kind of slowed down. Is there something else that you I don't know, that you would give people advice to like slow down? Slow down to live more, I guess. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

Yeah, that's a good title of a book. I should write that. Yeah, well well for me specifically like being in a rush, being late for something, like that totally stresses me out. And if I could get rid of that, like it it just makes me feel much better. It's like similar to like getting enough sleep, which is another thing. It's like that definitely seems like a lazy thing. Like if you sleep a lot, and I wish I could. Sleep a little bit more. But like taking naps during the day, like kind of frowned upon. It's like what a lazy person, but like if you're well rested, you're way less stressed out. Like I could just if I am feeling like I'm stressed or overwhelmed, like 90% of the time, it's because I haven't slept well in the last few days. It's like, yeah. Get some more sleep. Everything's fine.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

So have you seen uh do you have an iPhone? I do, yeah. Have you seen the new sleep scores they give you now in iOS 26?

SPEAKER_02 22:32

I haven't yet. My my watch just died uh recently. I need to get a new one. So Got it.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Well, like now they they they get all this data. So again, you can track your sleep um with your Apple Watch. And now they have all this data and they kind of pile it into a sleep score and they they give you a score and it can be poor, okay, good, excellent kind of a thing. And it gives you a number value, and then it'll tell you, oh, you know what? Your sleep score was okay, and you average like six hours of sleep last week or something, and I'm like, damn it, that sucks. Ball. Like you have no clue of how poor your sleep is until you lick look at it over time, you know?

SPEAKER_02 23:15

Yes. And actually, this is a great like meta point here. Um, I I do I track my sleep, and like I said, I'm gonna I was just talking to my wife today. I'm like, I'm gonna get a new watch. I'm like looking at the different versions, blah, blah, blah. Because I've had an Apple Watch for a few years, have a tremendous amount of data. Look at the sleep scores, but this is a perfect example of like over-optimization and over like trying to be productive. It's like I wake up and I check my sleep score. It's like I'm stressing about that because I have more data. And it's again, perfect example where it's just like we want to be productive. People are telling us, hey, if you want to be more productive and get more done and blah, blah, blah. But that's only through the sort of view of like traditional productivity. But it might be productive for us to get more rest, or it might be productive to spend time outside and not like produce more spreadsheets or whatever kind of thing you're thinking. And yeah, it's tough to get away from that idea because our jobs, our corporate careers, like we're evaluated on that. And time is money, and we're evaluating like each chunk of time is like a chunk of money. And it's hard to disconnect that. But once you do, like it's pretty freeing where, yeah, me sitting around in the backyard uh and like playing with our dog, not not that productive, but it's it's a good pastime, and I feel better afterwards. So there's a ton of things like that where you know it doesn't, it doesn't necessarily look productive, it looks pretty lazy, but maybe it's a good thing to spend time on.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Sure. And I learned this actually from my therapist because I have a hard time. If I'm not quote, being productive, I get super anxious, right? And sometimes I feel so guilty if I just, you know, take an you know, an evening where my son comes over to me watch a movie. Well, that two hours, like I could be creating something, building something, doing something, making money or whatever. And my therapist put it this way you know, if your goal that day was to spend quality time with your kid, you were productive. If your goal is to go out and play a catch with your dog that evening, that's productive. Like productivity doesn't have to be this business related thing, it can be whatever you deem is important to you, right? And that that was a like changing thing in my head for sure.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

And then have you been able to make that switch, or is it I mean it's a gradual thing, but how's it going?

SPEAKER_00 26:02

I mean, I have, it's not as easy. Um, like for instance, like I I love playing guitar. But I always think of playing guitar as a reward when all my work is done. And so there are days where I don't get to play because I feel as though I didn't I wasn't productive enough to earn the reward of playing guitar, which is so stupid and silly because technically it's all my time. I'm retired, question quote. But it's sad, really, you know, and so that's the thing is um yeah, I I have but it's hard. For sure.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Do you think let me ask you this? So you know, we just talked about like sleep and things like that. Is do you have some other like ritual or something in your life that is way more meaningful than people would think? Like just a little thing that you do that helps you be grounded or helps you feel uh I don't know, feel more human. What do you what is that?

SPEAKER_02 27:12

Yeah, probably a couple couple things. One wake up, get some coffee, whatever. But I I walk uh my dog for uh probably like two, three miles almost every day. Um I was gonna say like uh it's it's only like when we're traveling and we're taking a road trip where maybe I I can't walk her quite as much. But yeah, just walking outside is very nice. And I also go to the gym probably like five to six days a week. I don't work out like super hard, but I always do a little something, whatever, whatever I'm feeling like, and I I'm not I'm just trying not to get injured overall because as we were getting older, I started pulling stuff and I'm like, all right, as long as I can go to the gym the next day. Yes. Then uh the last thing, I love to cook. So really I didn't know that about you. Love to cook, and I probably spend I don't know, 50% of my time either thinking about cooking food, going to the grocery store, and you know, like over the last couple days, I made um, I think I made like smoked meatloaf and I made like a big tray of it, and it's great. You know, it it's one of those flow state situations. So I'll chop some veggies and do some other stuff and whatever. And I'll be cooking for like three, four, five hours. It goes by like that. Love it. You know, bouncing around the house a little bit. Maybe I'm grilling stuff, maybe I got the smoker fry or uh going, maybe I'm uh frying steaks or something like that. So yeah, cooking, huge part of like what my my focus is, whether it's actually cooking or thinking about cooking, or of course get to eat it.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

I I love that. What is there, what is your what is Doug's specialty? Like what's that thing that you love doing? People rave about it. What is that thing?

SPEAKER_02 29:12

Oh man, there's there's a lot of things. I'm currently into steaks right now. So there's a lot of different ways to to do it, of course. But I'm I'm typically these days I'm pan searing it and I'll do like a 12 to 36 hour sort of uh it's kind of a mini dry age. So I coat it with salt, put it on a rack in the fridge so the outside gets pretty dry. And it's not a true, you know, dry age, but it gets it gets the um the meat just a little bit more tender and it absorbs the salt, and then you get a really great sear on there. And uh yeah, it's fantastic. So I'm into steaks currently.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

That's awesome. Usually if it doesn't come out of a box, I don't know how to cook it. So well, one of these days when I'm passing through Longmotte, I'm gonna come over and have dinner.

SPEAKER_02 30:08

So yeah, yeah. And and I mean, like I I get into all sorts of other, you know, like different little things. So nothing super amazing, but I was gonna say, like, we do a like a pre-Thanksgiving meal with some of our neighbors around here. And I do the turkey. So I mean, like, pretty simple, like many millions of people do turkey, but just over time, like I think I've ho honed it in pretty well because sometimes you have a turkey, it's pretty dry, you know. There's uh there's a little trick. Uh and that's use a thermometer. But the crazy thing, like, I have a few thermometers. Two of them failed. So I was like, this doesn't seem right. So it was like reading much lower than it actually was. So I had my secondary thermometer testing things out, and I was like, Oh, I need to pull it out. I almost overcooked it myself. But uh yeah, use a meat thermometer.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Right on. One thing I have done, and I've done it for years now, is and I don't even know how you pronounce it, I call it Souve. I I don't know. I don't know, whatever. Um, that's where you cook things in this um water immersion bath, right? Usually they're like, you know, vacuum sealed, or I usually just use Ziplocks. But I will tell you, so turkey, I've done like I'll get like just a few separate um like three, four pound prests, put those in the ziploc. I mean, I like season the piss out of them, and I'll sometimes I'll do like injectable marinade and all the shit, put it in the ziploc bag with like butter and seasonings and stuff, and I'll souve that. And then um even I remember like one of the first years I did that, my grandma, who is like the best cook ever, she's like, Christopher, this is the best turkey I've ever had. Like it was it was pretty awesome because it was so moist and juicy and yummy. Oh my gosh. But yeah, I've done pork chops and like salmon. I've done everything because the the thing is you can't ruin it really. The only thing that happens is the texture will change a little bit. So you could souve something, you know, two hours versus four hours. It's not like you're gonna wreck it, but the texture changes.

SPEAKER_02 32:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

And I don't know if you've ever done that. Have you ever souveed anything?

SPEAKER_02 32:31

Yeah, I have. And bro, I was gonna say, like, that's an advanced technique. You're like, I can't cook anything. You're like, yeah, I'm doing this French technique where blah, blah, blah. It's like that's pretty good, bro.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Yeah. Um, I remember when when I was really heavily doing it, like so many things. I remember I got stuck in, you know, the Reddit rabbit hole and watching all these YouTube's and people would test different things. Like when I first did steaks, I would put pats of butter inside the bag. And I remember these two dudes truly compared putting butter in your souvet steak and not putting butter in your souve steak. Not butter one out, which I never would have thought. Huh.

SPEAKER_02 33:17

But did they have a theory?

SPEAKER_00 33:19

I I don't know. I'm sure there was science in there, but I don't know. Interesting. Yeah, there it was super fun. I remember, so how I finish things, let's say, like you mentioned, um, so if you do like a sirline or something, usually you gotta finish it like on a grill or like I'll cast iron skillet, sear it to make it nice and crisp and stuff. And again, you know, um I'm in the in the forums and people are like, well, no, you gotta finish it with a butane torch. You know, there's different ways. And you watch YouTube videos and they'll get they'll get it out, and they're like literally on the serving plate. When they plate it, they're like searing it with a torch. And so there are people debating, oh, you could use a propane torch versus butane. People are like, oh, you can taste the propane, don't do that, blah, blah, blah, whatever. And I'm like, so I'm like, well, I don't have a butane torch, but I do have a propane torch. So I go out in my garage, I get my propane torch, I'm like, I like, it's still in the skillet. I'm like, I turn my propane torch on. Within seconds, my frickin' smoke detector's going off. It's just like a nightmare. Evidently, propane, there's gas that the smoke detector doesn't like. I mean, you couldn't see anything. It wasn't like it was smoking, it was just something in the air. Yeah, anyway. So I learned not to use a propane torch in my kitchen, just an FYI.

SPEAKER_02 34:42

Totally. Yeah, yeah. I I do a lot of stuff outside. I have like a induction burner, like just a plug-in one. Yeah, because like frying inside, it just like it gets to be a little bit of a mess and all that kind of thing. So, so yeah, smoke, you get that uh, you know, the cast iron like super, super hot. Yep, you're gonna set off the the smoke detector for sure.

SPEAKER_00 35:05

So totally, totally. So now are you like overcritical if you go out to eat now? Do you like ah that was trash?

SPEAKER_02 35:13

I I try, I try not to. I typically won't order a steak out unless it's really, really good. So what I have learned is like order the right thing at the right place. And I'm not too, I mean, I'll eat hot dogs, like I like I'll eat whatever. I eat, you know, trashy fast food, whatever. I'm a simple man. But if you're at a place where you're not quite sure, burger usually works out, stuff like fish and chips, like some like proper like barfare usually works out pretty well. And even like nicer restaurants, not that we frequent those very often, but like a nicer restaurant still probably has like a solid burger, but yeah, 99% of the time, probably going to be disappointed with the steak because I could babysit it, but they have to make a profit, so it's a lesser cut, most likely. And then it's sitting under the light for a few minutes, and then there's a lot of failure points.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

Right. Are there any like places that you're dying to go? Like, would you go to Peter Luger's steakhouse in New York?

SPEAKER_02 36:18

Uh no place I'm dying to go. Yeah, I'm not super impressed. Um, I would, if I was in New York and had the opportunity, I probably would would check it out. But yeah, when I I'm like, yeah, it's probably fine, but it's have you been, by the way?

SPEAKER_00 36:35

I haven't, no. Okay. People always say, well, you should get in for free. They should give you a steak for free. I'm like, I'm not related, buddy. And I heard I heard that it's cash only. Oh, really? So it's like you gotta have a couple hundred bucks cash when you go there. Like, that's funny. So uh, so you have really have built a life that a lot of people would envy. You know, do you is there certain is there a certain part of your life that still like scares you or you're uncertain about?

SPEAKER_02 37:10

Oh man, that's um that's an interesting one. I there's there's always stuff that I'm working on, but not like right now, it's like a really like things are dialed in pretty well. And some of the, you know, quote, problems that I'm having are if I just say them uh like directly, it sounds dumb. Where I'm like, uh last couple years we uh we took too many trips, so we wanted to be home more. So it's like, yeah, tough problem, dude. Uh, but but part of it is like, well, where do you want to spend your time? Like, we're trying to spend time with friends and family a little bit more. So that's like one of the challenges. And, you know, guys, men our age in our late 40s, early 50s, like it's really important for us to like make guy friends and like have some solid relationships. So it's like making an effort to, you know, keep the old friendships alive and putting time into it and effort because that is a challenge. And, you know, but we don't have kids, uh, but many of our my friends that I'm talking about, they have kids. So it's like it's harder for them to take those trips. So all that to say, like that's one of the areas where it's like try to make sure I have like my relationships in order and make sure I'm putting the right amount of effort into it. So, and that goes for you know, family and you know, my family's in different different states. So it takes effort and it takes planning. And part of it is like we like our house, we like the community around here. So we don't want to be gone for too much. And at the same time, we want to like experience new things and have novel experiences. So it's like kind of a balancing act that we're trying to figure out.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Totally, totally. I think that it's super hard to make friends as you get older. Like, we know that. And that's that's why I I do force myself to do some in-person things. Um, you know, I have a monthly meetup group that I try to get out to, try to meet new people. Um, even tonight I'm going to like this meet and greet thing. I should get to know the people in the community. And so while I'm kind of don't want to, I know that I will I will be thankful. I will thank the future self if I actually get out of my comfort zone and go meet new people. And yeah, so because there's there's people that, you know, again, it it's hard to make friends as an adult, especially as you get, you know, your 40s and 50s as a dude. And, you know, I'm in this business group that we go to lunch every week, and it's one of the couple hours every week that I really look forward to because we get to hang out and bullshit, and people pretty much we all roast each other. And you know, I get ripped on because I wear crocs and I say dude a lot. Like it's you know what I mean? Like, but you know, it's it's because they care, you know, it's it's that type of thing.

SPEAKER_02 40:17

Yeah. You could say dude, but I don't know about the crocs.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

I actually have I actually have several pair of crocs. I have Spider-Man, I have two Spider-Man Crocs, I have Star Wars Crocs, I have Batman Crocs.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

It's like strike two, three, strike four. Oh man, come on.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

It was real it was really hard for me not to buy the Friday the 13th Crocs that got like blood splattered on them.

SPEAKER_02 40:38

They're seasonal. I like that.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Yeah, they're white, they're white, they look like hockey masks, and then you can get like the little, I don't know what they're called, the little charm plugs you can plug into them. You can get like little machetes and shit. It's pretty rad, so next year. I'm such an idiot, but yeah. That's awesome. Do you think in the future, right? Let's say you're Doug 20 years from now. Because I mean you're still a young guy, right? You're in your 40s, right? So let's say 20 years from now, what does that look like for you?

SPEAKER_02 41:16

Oh man. You're asking some some deep questions. Let's see. I hopefully I'll be very active. Like I said, I try to hit the gym and be in shape, and I know you know that's one of those things where I'm hoping like the time that I'm investing now will help me be like mobile and active and able to travel, you know, quite a bit and be comfortable. So like that's that's one thing. I you mentioned guitar. I have been playing more and practicing more and trying to like overcome some of the plateaus. Because you've, you know, for many years I just kind of like strummed around and did the same kind of thing, but I'm really trying to learn more and you know get some more technical chops and like music theory under my fingers. And 20 years is a long time. And I could probably learn a whole lot and be a much, I mean, like be a very advanced guitar player, um, putting in time over a the long haul like that. So I don't want to like I'm in a good spot right now. I don't want to lose focus on that. And I've been playing with some friends around here, which has been really fun. It's social. The music aspect is something a little bit different that I haven't spent that kind of time on. And, you know, the other area kind of alluded to it, but just more travel. Like we've had we're we're dog people and we've had dogs, and as the dogs get older, we tended to not travel as much and like not do international travel. So we will probably uh at some point we'll lose the our current dog who's in my feet right now. Um, and then we'll we'll probably do a lot more travel. And I know in the next 20 years, like that'll be like our potentially some of our most active years as far as like international travel and that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Wow, good for good for you. I mean, I just think of myself and maybe this I'm just in a different so many people I talk to now, especially in the Phi community, have really focused on their health. And I feel as though since I left work my health has actually kind of gone down. I mean, I've probably gained fifteen pounds just because I'm not constantly moving, going from meeting to meeting. I'm I'm like I guess I'm more more homebound. It's you know, it's really easy to snack when you're just sitting around at your computer all day. So um but yet I mean that's no more most of the people. And that's including myself. I always think, well, in the future I will be traveling less. So good for you. I mean, that's one thing that I went to like some music festivals and some concerts and stuff now because I know I'm healthy enough to do that, because I just don't know what I'll be. I really need to take better care of my health, man. Maybe that's what I got to do, though. I got to move to a place where it's not 20 below zero for three months of the year. Sucks balls.

SPEAKER_02 44:25

Yeah, yeah. Well, and you know, the other part of it is like who you're around, because you I'm not gonna say the average of five people, all that kind of stuff, because I don't know if I buy into that completely. But at the same time, it's just like if you're around people that are like doing the active stuff and they're like pulling you out, like you were like, Oh yeah, we do the business lunch, fucking sit around and eat. No, no, I didn't mean it to send that negative. But like recently people were like, Hey, you want to go do this thing? And I was like, why don't we get a coffee and walk? Because I don't want to sit at a table and then they're trying to turn the table and blah, blah, blah. It's like, let's just go walk outside. It's nice out, there's greenways. So I try to like do that kind of stuff. Um, but but like it's totally within, obviously within your reach. Sure. Um, like my you know, 20-year timeline of like learning guitar more. It's like, dude, you could get in shape in like under a year, like totally awesome shape.

SPEAKER_00 45:26

Thank you for that. I I re I mean, seriously, I need that. I think, and that's one of the things too, is like, you know, when I had a corporate job, you know, there are oftentimes again, I mean, I worked on town Minneapolis, and you know, every time like we would go, like you just mentioned, grab a coffee, but it was in the Skyway. So we'd go put two miles on walking around the Skyway. You know what I mean? At lunchtime. So it's like it was so much easier to get more steps in. It was just so much easier to to do that stuff. Um yeah, I was gonna say I like the focus on music and guitar, like that's something that I really want to do, and and it it's interesting. Um I guess it means that we're serious because the guys I play with, and you'll appreciate this. We just bought like $2,000 worth of gear. Nice. So we just bought like uh a 40-track rack mount digital mixer with a PA and then an expansion card so we can do our separate tracks and swap out SD cards and bring them home. And I'm uh it there's a learning curve there. Like, I gotta learn how to use all the equipment. Like, I'm I'm not an audio engineer type music guy. Um, but now I'm vested, man. That's cool.

SPEAKER_02 46:45

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I was gonna say I play with a buddy um Tyler, and there's a spot around here, it's called the drum box, and it's like the old ATM kiosk little buildings, and it's in a parking lot, and basically there's a set of drums in there. There's no noise issues. You could turn it up as loud as you want. So I bring my tube amp, can totally crank. And it's I mean, we wear tons of hearing production because it's so loud in there. But like, what where do you guys play? Someone has a house that's like season-proofed or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

Yeah, the drummer's basement, really. That's where we practice. And we had our very first gig um a month, a couple months ago. Um, and uh I guess you kind of I I mentioned it to you, and I was like, Well, I don't know. We had like 70 people, and you you you assured me, no, that's a real gig. Yeah, that's a lot of people, man. So but it was super fun. But yeah, when we practice, it's um in the drummer's basement, and I always have my eargasms in, and I just don't understand how like I mean, the drummer, like he never wears ear protection. I don't know how mad. I mean, cymbal crashes, if I don't have my earplugs in, like my ears are bleeding.

SPEAKER_02 47:58

Yeah. I yeah, I have no idea, no clue at all. But I mean, I was gonna say you probably did the same. Like when I went to shows in my 20s or whatever, like did we didn't wear earplugs, like just we I wasn't on the radar as much.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Yeah. There was there was a show that literally it was like a light switch for me. I went to a show at a small club. It was called the M Mirage TNT Night Club here in Minneapolis. It's now torn down. They got like apartments there now. But I I went there and I was, you know, at the stage like I always am. But I remember I got home and it was just so loud, my head, my ears were ringing so bad that I was just like nauseous and sick. And it was like affecting me. Like I I felt ill because it was so loud. And I'm like, never again. So I've literally wear I've wear earplugs to every concert since. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:54

So yeah, and I bring them to, you know, we see each other at a at events and stuff, and even just like a uh a crowded ballroom with whatever 500 people talking and they're trying to play music. It's too loud. So I I bring earplugs to those and try not to talk because I I also lose my voice. So it's a perfect combo of like just uncomfortability the whole time.

SPEAKER_00 49:17

Yeah, I I got that tip from you. Like I would never would have brought mine to events until I saw you do it. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. I do want to thank you for your time. I really do. Um, I think you're just a super cool dude, nice and chill, but yet you still have the I don't know, what am I a calm intensity? Is that the thing?

SPEAKER_02 49:41

That sounds good, yeah. That's what I think. I should make t-shirts with that.

SPEAKER_00 49:45

So so Doug, you know, here's the thing. You know, when people think about Fi, they think about Honor Retire Early, and you and I were talking. You think that there is a kind of a unique parallel between Fi and Hallmark movies, because it is the holiday season, after all. Explain what you mean here, because I'm like, I'm not tracking.

SPEAKER_02 50:14

So yeah, I'm a big fan of these Hallmark movies. And every year, you know, once we finish October, we watch horror movies all October, and then we switch over to Hallmark movies, and they're a little uh, you know, formulaic. I mean highly formulaic. Have you watched many Hallmark movies, Chris?

SPEAKER_00 50:36

I I, in all honesty, I really haven't, but they they talk about them all the time, like on the news and stuff. Especially you'll get ones that truly stand out every year. Like last year it was like what was the one? It was like hot, hot frosty or something. It was like this dude with chiseled abs and shit. And literally, it was like Frosty the Snowman, but it was like this hot dude. Yeah. And when he and it just it took it took the world by storm. I don't understand.

SPEAKER_02 51:09

That one wasn't on my radar, but I'll have to I'll have to check it out. I do like guys with abs. But the so the reason why, I mean, they're fun movies, they're a little bit silly, and the to me, they're a perfect metaphor for Phi. And if people haven't you know checked these movies out before, I mean, they're a punchline, there's great SNL sketches on it. I encourage people to look those up. But basically, the premise of most of the movies are someone with a stressful corporate job in the big city. For some reason, they need to go back home. Maybe their uncle is sick, they head back home. There's a uh, I don't know, there's like a pie bake off. So they have to do the pie contest, and then they meet their old flame who is now running the Christmas tree farm. And I don't want to spoil the movies for you, but generally people leave their their busy job where they thought they wanted to climb the corporate ladder, and then they realize what was really important, and that's family and friends and community, and basically all the shit that we talk about in the Fi community. Like once you get on the other side of it, we're focusing on these other things, and that's what the Hallmark movies are all about.

SPEAKER_00 52:31

So they're not I can't I can't wait. And that so now this is the thing. When I watch some this year, I'm gonna truly like pay attention to see these these metaphors. What what is one you say you watch them? Do you have a favorite that you would you would recommend?

SPEAKER_02 52:51

So I don't know very many of the the names. They all run together, man. It's like the same movie, and they like sh sh shuffle uh the cards and they're like, okay, we're doing Christmas Tree Farm, Lawyer, uh Old Flame with a cupcake uh or a bakery. They're gonna open a bakery now or whatever, right? It's all the same stuff. But there is one that is perfect for the uninitiated. Okay. It's called Cluster Funk Christmas. And this one is it's kind of a meta take. This one is self-aware, has some of the folks from SNL. So this one is more of a comedy. They're self-aware of the tropes and the silliness. So they make fun of the genre while making a movie that fits perfectly. So that one is a good one to get started. Like we watched one the other day, and it wasn't an actual like Hallmark production. It was like maybe Lifetime or some other network. And it was like a little too um, it was a little too much and not funny enough. Because the good ones, while the dialogue could be pretty strained, usually there's some funny parts. So this cluster funk Christmas, which is it's like dude, it's hard to say. Yeah. Cluster funk Christmas. And yeah, find that one that's a good one to get started. And uh the secret to life and to watching these Hallmark movies is low expectations. So if you're not expecting too much out of these, you won't be disappointed.

SPEAKER_00 54:31

That's crazy. You know, there's this one actress, and I don't know, her name is like Lacey Yeah, Lacey Schubert or something like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:42

I think she's an Oliver man.

SPEAKER_02 54:44

All of her. I know.

SPEAKER_00 54:44

I think I heard she's been in like 37 Hallmark movies or some shit.

SPEAKER_02 54:50

They're great. Yeah. If you scroll through, you'll just see her like movie after movie after movie. Um, yeah, she's made like a great career. I think she was in like Party of Five. I didn't watch that show back in the day, but she was like, Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:03

She was I think she was in Mean Girls, was her big breakout. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah, good call.

SPEAKER_02 55:10

Yeah. Um, so they're great movies. Definitely check it out.

SPEAKER_00 55:13

Cool, man. That's awesome. I never thought that we'd kind of wrap up our our discussion on Hallmark Christmas movies, but you know what? Hey, that's awesome. I am a huge movie fan, so it's it's pretty awesome, man. Have you watched? You said you're into horror. Have you watched Welcome to Dairy yet?

SPEAKER_02 55:32

No.

SPEAKER_00 55:34

On Max. So it's like penny wise, it's the origin story, like the beginning of it. And I think the third episode dropped, it is fucking rad. It is so good. It's awesome. Yeah. So if you're into horror, check out Welcome to Dairy on Max because it is worth it for sure.

SPEAKER_02 55:55

On the list. Cool.

SPEAKER_00 55:56

Awesome. Well, Doug, thank you so much for your time today. I really do appreciate it. Um, let people know where they can find you, your podcast, all the things. Mile hi-fi.

unknown 56:06

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 56:07

Thanks for having me. Super fun to catch up. Yep, you could check out Mile Hi Fi. It's on all the podcast players out there and on YouTube. So, yeah, we do video, like record down here in the studio. I try to have people in person as much as possible. And if you haven't checked it out, I've done many episodes with Mr. Money Mustache. So those are fun. People like Pete. So he bikes over here, you know, that's a real thing. He bikes over here and uh we record. So there's a handful of episodes with Pete, and those are great ones to check out if you haven't heard of the show before.

SPEAKER_00 56:42

Awesome. You know, and all the people that you've talked to about like life after Phi, is there something that you've learned or maybe some call-out that always sticks in your mind? A guest that did something amazing. What's the one that stands out?

SPEAKER_02 57:01

Oh wow. So one one of my good friends, he's local around here, but he retired a few years ago. I've recorded a couple episodes with him, and he is the Indiana Jones of Fi. That's what Carl mentioned. So this guy like went uh like treasure hunting and like um looked for fossils. So he literally would like dive and uh I think he went down to coast of Florida, went with a crew, and he would like dive and like look through um shipwrecks and that sort of thing. And then he was like, ah, I kind of want to, you know, hunt for fossils. So he went to Wyoming and like volunteered for a crew and actually like found like some some stuff and there were stories written about him. So he goes on these like pretty big adventures, and he uh he had a cancer diagnosis a couple years later and was able to um you know make it through all the treatment and recently recorded an episode with me to kind of talk about that a little bit, very serious episode and portions, and then talked about another musician. So he actually he's a kind of Americana singer-songwriter um genre. So he put out an album this year and was like, I've he's recorded before, but he really put in like more time on this album and is working on, you know, getting some airplay and like actually like following through with the promotion and marketing, which many musicians like that's you know, they want to make music, they don't want to do the marketing and all that kind of song and dance. Anyway, so Chris has um covered so much stuff. Chris Russon has covered so much stuff from his adventures to dealing with cancer and then you know, putting together an album and promoting it. So there's two episodes where like just like, oh shit, like this guy has done like some awesome stuff. And he's actually from I don't do you know Chris Russon? He's from the Twin or Minneapolis area.

SPEAKER_00 59:15

I don't. I feel like I I need to get to know him. I mean, it's not just remarkable, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 59:19

Yeah, I'll connect you guys because um yeah, he's he's promoting the album and stuff like that. Yeah, super nice guy and lives you know not too far away, so we're able to hike and hang out and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 59:29

That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, again, Doug, thanks so much for your time today. Really appreciate it. And those of you that are listening, wherever you get your podcast, please like, subscribe, leave a review wherever you get your podcast and on YouTube. And we'll see you next time on the Extreme Personal Finance Troil. See ya!