How To Stop Trying To Drive From The Passenger Seat

Your day can look perfectly handled and still fall apart by 9:07 a.m. The calendar is color-coded, the inbox is at zero, and you feel like a pilot with a dashboard full of levers. Then a single surprise hits: traffic stops dead, a client flips priorities, a boss reacts unpredictably, or the budget gets cut. That is the cockpit illusion, and it is one of the fastest routes to workplace stress, anxiety, and burnout because it tricks us into believing control means forcing the world to match our plan.

We walk through why our nervous system is wired for survival, not office life, and how that pushes us into fight, flight, or camouflage at work: defensive arguments in meetings, avoiding a stressful email thread, or disappearing into “quiet quitting” mode. From there, we get specific about the mental trap that turns stress into surrender: learned helplessness and global thinking, where one bad moment becomes a story about your entire career and future.

The heart of the conversation is Ches Moulton’s F.O.U.R barriers framework, a practical stress management tool you can apply in real time. We break down F for Facts you cannot change, O for Other People you cannot control, U for being Unprepared to change, and R for internal Resistance. Along the way we connect preparation to cognitive tunnelling, show how to lower friction with tiny starts and reframing, and use a vivid “Helen” scenario to test the framework under worst-case pressure. The big takeaway lands hard and clean: the only control you truly have is control of you, including what you are willing to tolerate and when it is time to choose a different environment.

If you found this useful, subscribe, share it with a friend who’s overwhelmed at work, and leave a review so more people can find these tools. What part of F.O.U.R do you get stuck on most?

Hosted by our AI guides, Adrian and Sarah

Transcript

The Cockpit Illusion Of Control

Intro 0:00

This podcast is brought to you by the Institute for Mental Health and Wellbeing. Building mentally healthy, high-performing workplaces. Mental health matters.

Adrian 0:11

You know, there's this feeling we all um we all kind of chase at work. It's like this illusion of the cockpit.

Sarah 0:17

Oh, right. The cockpit illusion.

Adrian 0:20

Yeah, you know exactly what I mean. You sit down to your desk, you've got your calendar all perfectly color-coded, your inbox is at zero, maybe your project timelines are uh neatly mapped out on a second monitor.

Sarah 0:32

Everything looks perfectly under control.

Adrian 0:35

Exactly. You feel like a pilot surrounded by all these very specific buttons and levers. And the assumption is if you just press the right buttons in the exact right order, the day goes perfectly, like it's entirely in your hands.

Sarah 0:47

But then reality hits.

Adrian 0:48

Right. But to figure out how to rebuild that cockpit when the systems actually go down, we are doing a deep dive into a stack of your sources today. We've got articles, research notes, and specifically this really fascinating framework from stress management consultant Ches Moulton.

Sarah 1:03

It's a great framework, really practical.

Adrian 1:06

It really is. So the mission for today's deep dive is tailored specifically for you. You know, the busy professional who might be listening right now on a commute, or maybe you're prepping for a high-stakes meeting, because we really want to talk about how to regain control when work and life just throw you into absolute chaos.

Sarah 1:23

Because that illusion of the cockpit, it's incredibly common. I mean, it's the comfort of cause and effect, right? I do X, therefore Y happens.

Adrian 1:31

I feel safe.

Sarah 1:31

It's a very safe, very predictable way to view the professional world. The problem is our biology just isn't built for modern office spreadsheets or calendar invites. It's built for survival.

Stress Biology Meets Office Life

Sarah 1:44

Right.

Adrian 1:44

The source material points out that biologically speaking, our stress system essentially gives us three main strategies when we face a threat. We can stay in due combat, we can run away as fast as we can, or we can try to uh blend in and confuse the enemy.

Sarah 1:59

Exactly. So fight, flight, or camouflage.

Adrian 2:01

Camouflage, I love that term for it. Yeah.

Sarah 2:04

In a literal physical sense, sure. But like map that onto a modern office environment. Doing combat might look like defensively arguing in a status meeting. Flight might look like completely ignoring a stressful email chain for days.

Adrian 2:17

Oh, I've definitely done that. Just pretending the email doesn't exist.

Sarah 2:20

Right. We all have. And camouflage is just keeping your head down, you know, quiet quitting or hiding out in the break room hoping the boss doesn't notice you.

Adrian 2:28

But none of those biological responses actually solve a complex workflow issue.

Sarah 2:33

No, they don't solve anything at work.

Adrian 2:34

Okay, so let's unpack this. Because this leads to what the source highlights as the central paradox of stress. Stress usually spikes because we lack full control of our circumstances.

Sarah 2:47

Yes.

Adrian 2:48

And the people who get hit the hardest are often the, well, the linear thinkers, the people who make those meticulous step-by-step plans.

Sarah 2:56

The ones who love the cockpit.

Adrian 2:57

Exactly. They end up incredibly stressed precisely because their beautiful plans rely on having total unbroken control over every single variable. Yeah.

Sarah 3:08

And the linear thinker reasons, well, if I can't guarantee control over the outcome, what is the point of planning anything at all?

Adrian 3:13

It's super frustrating.

Sarah 3:15

It's an understandable frustration, for sure. People constantly ask the question, well, what can I do if I don't have control over what's happening? But looking closely at Moulton's work, that is actually a poorly thought out question.

Adrian 3:27

Wait, really? Why is that a bad question? I mean, it feels like the most natural thing to ask when things fall apart.

Sarah 3:32

Because the very way we define the word control is what impairs our judgment.

Adrian 3:38

Oh interesting.

Sarah 3:38

We assume control means manipulating the external world to fit our pre-existing plan. When we realize we can't do that, like when a client changes their mind or a deadline gets suddenly moved, we panic.

Adrian 3:51

Right. We freak out because the levers aren't working.

Sarah 3:53

Exactly. So to fix this, we need a complete perspective shift. Instead of trying to force the world to comply, we have to look at what's actually blocking us from moving forward. And that brings us to the core framework of today's analysis, which is the FOUR barriers approach.

Adrian 4:09

Right. But before we get into the actual letters of that acronym, let's ground this in a real painfully relatable

Learned Helplessness And Global Thinking

Adrian 4:16

scenario from the text just to see what that loss of control actually looks like.

Sarah 4:21

Good idea. The Helen example.

Adrian 4:22

Yeah, let's talk about Helen.

Sarah 4:24

Yeah.

Adrian 4:24

So Helen is a professional, she's on her way to work, and she gets trapped in a massive, totally unmoving traffic jam.

Sarah 4:32

And we aren't talking about a little congestion here.

Adrian 4:34

No. She eventually sees the cause. It's a severe car accident ahead. The road is completely blocked. Right. Like there are police, fire engines, ambulances, damaged cars strewed across the road. She is entirely stripped of her ability to move forward. , she's completely immobilized. And the stakes are remarkably high for her. She's going to be late. She's facing potential discipline from a new boss, maybe a reduction in pay, or, you know, even getting fired. She's just sitting in her car watching the clock tick, feeling entirely powerless. And what's terrifying is how fast the mind turns that powerless feeling into a permanent state.

Sarah 5:10

Right. What's fascinating here is the psychological trap that Helen and honestly so many of us fall into during these moments.

Adrian 5:17

Learned helplessness.

Sarah 5:18

Exactly. Psychologists call it learned helplessness. When people repeatedly face stressful situations where they have zero control, they eventually just consider themselves helpless across the board.

Adrian 5:30

They just give up.

Sarah 5:31

They stop trying. They assume that failure is absolutely inevitable. And because of that core belief, they take no action whatsoever. They just sit there and accept doom.

Adrian 5:41

I kind of want to push back on that for a second, though. Sure. Because isn't doing nothing sometimes just well accepting reality? I mean, if I'm stuck alone in a broken elevator between floors, me jumping up and down and screaming doesn't fix the elevator. Doing nothing is actually the logical choice.

Sarah 5:59

That's a fair point.

Adrian 6:00

Right. Isn't Helen just recognizing that she can't physically move a fire engine out of the way?

Sarah 6:04

That is a brilliant distinction, actually, because there is a subtle but massive difference between accepting a physical reality and surrendering your agency.

Adrian 6:13

Okay, how so?

Sarah 6:14

Sitting quietly in a broken elevator to conserve energy is accepting a fact. Learned helplessness, on the other hand, is when you decide that because you are stuck in the elevator, your entire career is over, no one will ever rescue you, you're gonna lose your home, and you might as well just give up on life.

Adrian 6:31

Wow. Okay, yeah.

Sarah 6:33

It's what the text calls global thinking.

Adrian 6:35

Oh, I see. It's the doom spiral. You take one isolated incident where you lack control and you project that lack of control onto your entire existence.

Sarah 6:44

Yes. That is the true danger of global thinking. Our stressed-out brains create these all or nothing, gloom-ridden outcomes that rarely, if ever, actually materialize. Right. Helen isn't just accepting the traffic. She's mentally fast-forwarding to being unemployed and destitute. So to break that spiral, we have to dismantle the barriers preventing us from taking productive, localized action.

F For Facts Accept Reality Fast

Sarah 7:05 Adrian 7:05

And breaking that spiral starts with the first letter of our F-O-U-R barriers approach.

Sarah 7:10

F F stands for facts.

Adrian 7:12

Right. The source uses the Cambridge Dictionary definition here, which I think is perfect. A fact is an evidence-based statement. It is something known to have happened or to exist for which proof exists.

Sarah 7:24

Exactly.

Adrian 7:24

The road being blocked by emergency vehicles is a fact.

Sarah 7:28

And for you, the busy professional listening right now recognizing this barrier is the foundational step of stress management. You cannot change facts.

Adrian 7:38

You just can't.

Sarah 7:39

No matter how much you regret them or stress over them or complain about them in the break room. Dwelling on immovable facts is a massive drain on your valuable time and productive energy. So true. You have to use facts as neutral data to make decisions rather than seeing them as enemies you need to fight.

Adrian 7:56

It's basically the difference between saying, uh, I can't believe it's raining. This is so unfair, the universe hates me, and saying, it's raining. That's a fact. I need an umbrella.

Sarah 8:05

A perfect parallel to the workplace. Like if the quarterly budget got slashed by 20%, that is a fact. Don't waste three weeks of executive meetings mourning the old budget and complaining about corporate. Use the new, smaller number to make your next operational decision. The sooner you accept the fact, the sooner you regain your agency.

Adrian 8:24

Here's where it gets really interesting, though. Because accepting facts is usually only half the battle, right?

Sarah 8:30

O

O For Other People Stop Steering Them

Sarah 8:31

absolutely.

Adrian 8:31

In a professional setting, the fact you're dealing with was almost always caused by another human being.

Sarah 8:37

Yes.

Adrian 8:38

Which introduces the most volatile, frustrating variable in the universe and brings us to the second barrier. O stands for other people.

Sarah 8:47

The ultimate wild card in any meticulous plan.

Adrian 8:50

The source gives a few visceral examples of this, like an angry spouse who decides to leave out of nowhere, or specifically for you listening, maybe a boss who acts like a moron.

Sarah 9:01

A highly technical term.

Adrian 9:02

Right. But universally understood.

Sarah 9:05

Definitely.

Adrian 9:05

It perfectly captures that feeling of dealing with someone who just defies all logic and reason. You know, trying to control a toxic boss or an uncooperative colleague is literally like trying to steer a car from the passenger seat.

Sarah 9:17

That's a great image.

Adrian 9:18

You are reaching across the center console, you're grabbing the wheel, you're frantic, you're exhausted, and you are entirely ineffective because you simply do not have your feet on the pedals.

Sarah 9:29

That analogy hits the nail on the head because it highlights the illusion of proximity.

Adrian 9:34

The illusion of proximity.

Sarah 9:36

Yeah. You are close to the situation, so you feel like you should be able to control it, but you have zero control over others' behavior. If your boss is acting irrationally, you cannot fundamentally rewire their personality.

Adrian 9:49

No matter how hard you try.

Sarah 9:51

Exactly. Synthesizing this with our professional lives, wasting your resources and your emotional energy trying to change other people is one of the primary drivers of chronic workplace stress. It's a fight you will lose 100% of the time.

Adrian 10:06

It is surprisingly liberating to just admit that out loud. Just saying, I cannot control my moron boss.

Sarah 10:12

It really is.

Adrian 10:13

It just lowers the blood pressure. I don't have the pedals.

Sarah 10:15

Right. And it lowers your blood pressure because it frees you up to focus on what is actually in front of you.

Adrian 10:20

Which is yourself.

Sarah 10:21

Yes. When you stop trying to control the uncontrollable boss or the impossible colleague, you are forced to look at your own tool belt, which transitions us perfectly to the U in our FOUR barriers.

U For Unprepared Success Steps

Adrian 10:34

U stands for unprepared to change.

Sarah 10:36

Exactly.

Adrian 10:37

The source leans on a classic Benjamin Franklin quote here. By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail. This barrier is all about lacking the necessary success steps.

Sarah 10:49

And this is where we have to dig a little deeper into why those meticulous linear thinkers often fail here.

Adrian 10:55

Right, because they do plan.

Sarah 10:56

They do. It's not that they don't plan, it's that they suffer from optimism bias.

Adrian 11:00

Oh, interesting.

Sarah 11:01

They plan exclusively for the happy path. They assume the technology will work, the traffic will be light, and the client will be reasonable. They have a plan, but they don't have success steps for when the facts change.

Adrian 11:11

There is a tiny subtle detail in Helen's traffic jam story from the text that brilliantly illustrates this.

Sarah 11:17

Yes, the phone. Right.

Adrian 11:19

So Helen is stuck. A proactive step to reclaim her agency would be to call her office and explain the situation to her new boss. But the text asks, what if she had inadvertently left her mobile phone at home?

Sarah 11:33

The modern professional's absolute worst nightmare.

Adrian 11:36

It happens all the time. You rush out the door, the phone stays on the kitchen counter, and that missing phone is a missing vital success step.

Sarah 11:43

Exactly.

Adrian 11:43

You can have the right mindset, you can accept the facts of the traffic, you can stop trying to control the other drivers. But if you don't actually have the tools prepared to execute a backup plan, your control just evaporates.

Sarah 11:54

And this brings up a psychological mechanism we really need to understand cognitive tunneling.

Adrian 11:59

Cognitive tunneling.

Sarah 12:00

Yeah. When we are placed under sudden, severe stress, like say, seeing a literal wall of emergency vehicles, our brains literally narrow our focus. We get tunnel vision.

Adrian 12:11

Oh wow.

Sarah 12:11

We lose access to our peripheral problem solving skills. So if you haven't prepared your success steps before the crisis hits, cognitive tunneling ensures you won't be able to invent them on the fly.

Adrian 12:22

So preparation isn't just about efficiency, it's about building a safety net for when your brain temporarily stops working.

Sarah 12:30

That is a fantastic way to put it. Dealing with stress means equipping yourself with the right skills and tools while you are still calm.

Adrian 12:37

Okay, that makes sense.

Sarah 12:38

Like if you know you have a high-stakes presentation, having a backup copy on a flash drive or saving it locally to your desktop instead of relying entirely on the cloud is a success step.

Adrian 12:49

Right.

Sarah 12:49

It prevents a routine Wi-Fi failure from escalating into an uncontrollable physiological stressor.

Adrian 12:55

But you know, having the tools prepared is great, assuming you actually use them. Which brings us to the final and honestly the most difficult internal wall. R

R For Resistance Make Friction Manageable

Adrian 13:04

stands for resistance.

Sarah 13:05

Yes, the hardest one.

Adrian 13:06

This isn't about the external world pushing against you. This is your own reluctance to change yourself.

Sarah 13:11

It's the barrier of our own making.

Adrian 13:14

The source uses some incredibly memorable anecdotes for this that highlight the classic human experience.

Sarah 13:20

The gym membership.

Adrian 13:21

Yes. It's buying an incredibly expensive monthly gym membership, buying the new shoes, psyching yourself up, and then you just simply never go.

Sarah 13:31

Or the smoking example.

Adrian 13:32

Right. Deciding to quit a bad habit, dramatically throwing away all your cigarettes or pouring your alcohol down the sink, only to be back at the convenience store buying more a week later.

Sarah 13:42

Those examples highlight a really difficult, uncomfortable truth. Starting with good intentions simply isn't enough.

Adrian 13:50

It never is.

Sarah 13:51

You actually have to put the sustained effort in to change your behavior. But there's a crucial insight here from the text that fundamentally changes how we approach this.

Adrian 13:59

Okay.

Sarah 14:00

The text states resistance is not a deal breaker, it's an attitude.

Adrian 14:05

Wait. So if resistance is just an attitude, that implies it's a choice. It means I'm not actually failing a fundamental test of character. I'm just throwing a mental tantrum.

Sarah 14:15

That is exactly the shift in perspective required.

Adrian 14:17

Wow.

Sarah 14:18

If you view resistance as a fundamental deal breaker, the moment you feel lazy or the moment you slip up and buy that pack of cigarettes, you think, well, I failed. I guess I'm just a smoker. It's over.

Adrian 14:26

The learned helplessness kicks in.

Sarah 14:28

Exactly. But if resistance is just an attitude like a predictable friction, it becomes something you can actively manage.

Adrian 14:37

How do you actually manage it, practically speaking? Because knowing I'm being stubborn doesn't always stop me from being stubborn.

Sarah 14:43

Right. You manage it through proper mental skills training, which essentially means anticipating the friction instead of being surprised by it.

Adrian 14:51

Okay, give me an example.

Sarah 14:52

You use techniques like reframing. If you know you are going to feel resistance to opening that massive, intimidating spreadsheet on Tuesday morning, you schedule a 10-minute block just to format the columns.

Adrian 15:04

Ah, you lower the barrier to entry.

Sarah 15:07

Yes. You expect your brain to say, I don't want to do this, and you have a pre-planned response. I know we don't want to do this, but we're just going to do the first five minutes.

Adrian 15:14

That's brilliant.

Sarah 15:15

You soften the resistance by treating it as a normal part of the process rather than a catastrophic failure of willpower.

Putting FOUR Into Helen’s Worst Case

Adrian 15:22

Okay, so what does this all mean? Let's take FOUR, facts, other people, unpreparedness, and resistance, and actually put it to the test. Let's take Helen through her absolute worst-case scenario from the text, the Monday morning application. Let's do it. Let's say she finally gets out of the traffic jam and she arrives very late to the office. She appeals to mitigating circumstances. She explains the massive accident to her new boss, but the boss flat out rejects her excuse.

Sarah 15:51

Brutal.

Adrian 15:52

Right. He docks her pay, he reduces her status level, and he actively excludes her from meetings she normally would have attended.

Sarah 15:59

That is the ultimate stress test. It's the exact worst-case scenario that her global thinking warned her about while she was sitting in the car.

Adrian 16:06

So what does the proactive professional do here using the four barriers framework?

Sarah 16:10

Well, instead of falling into learned helplessness and deciding her career is totally ruined, Helen focuses entirely on dismantling the barriers. First, the facts. The facts are immovable. She was late, and the boss reacted terribly. She doesn't waste energy arguing with reality. Second, other people.

Adrian 16:27

She realizes she can't change him.

Sarah 16:29

Yes. She recognizes she cannot control the boss's irrational, punitive behavior. She drops the illusion that she can steer his car.

Adrian 16:38

Which forces her to look at unpreparedness and resistance.

Sarah 16:41

Exactly. She looks at her own preparation and overcomes her internal resistance to facing the music. The text outlines her proactive options here.

Adrian 16:51

What can she do?

Sarah 16:52

She can calmly offer her apologies without becoming defensive. She can ask for a separate private meeting with her boss to review the missed agenda items. Right. She can proactively ask what specific tasks she can take on right now to get up to speed. She focuses exclusively on the dials and levers inside her own cockpit.

Adrian 17:11

And even going back to the traffic jam itself, if we look at that missing phone scenario, if she forgot her phone, the text points out she doesn't just sit there and surrender.

Sarah 17:20

No, she doesn't.

Adrian 17:21

A success step is available. She gets out of her car, walks down the line of stationary traffic, and borrows a stranger's phone to call the office.

Sarah 17:28

She finds a way to communicate, despite the barriers.

Adrian 17:31

Okay, but let's be real for a second. Getting out of your car on a jammed highway, walking up to a stranger's window, and knocking on the glass to ask for their phone is incredibly awkward.

Sarah 17:43

Very awkward.

Adrian 17:44

Your heart would be pounding, it feels socially transgressive. But I guess the framework is arguing that the temporary acute discomfort of asking a stranger for help is vastly preferable to the prolonged, uncontrollable stress of being unreachable and falling into a doom spiral.

Sarah 18:01

That is the core trade-off of overcoming resistance. Yes, it is awkward. Yes, your heart will pound. But taking that uncomfortable action immediately shires the learned helplessness.

Adrian 18:11

You prove to yourself you have agency.

Sarah 18:12

Exactly. You are no longer a victim of the traffic. You are an active participant in solving your own problem. But this leads to an even deeper revelation.

The Bigger Question Who Controls Your Life

Sarah 18:20

The text asks a vital question about Helen's nightmare scenario at the office. Who is in control of Helen at this moment? Certainly not Helen.

Adrian 18:28

Wait, I thought doing all those proactive things, you know, apologizing, setting up the meeting, was her taking control?

Sarah 18:34

It is control in the immediate tactical sense. But we have to look at the wider strategic context.

Adrian 18:40

Okay.

Sarah 18:40

If her company is completely apathetic to a genuine verifiable emergency, like a massive car accident, and her new boss is acting that cold-bloodedly and punitively, why does Helen's master plan include working there at all?

Adrian 18:57

Oh wow. That is a massive perspective shift.

Sarah 19:00

Right. At what point does efficiently complying with other people's unreasonable demands take priority over Helen's ability to determine her own life and employment?

Adrian 19:09

It shouldn't.

Sarah 19:09

Exactly. The ultimate form of control isn't just learning how to navigate a highly toxic environment efficiently, it's deciding whether you want to subject yourself to that environment in the first place.

Adrian 19:19

Synthesizing all of this, the ultimate takeaway from Ches Moulton's framework really boils down to this. The only control you genuinely have in this life is the ability to control you.

Sarah 19:29

That's the core truth.

Adrian 19:30

You can't control the traffic, you can't control the raw facts of the economy, and you certainly can't control the moron boss. But you're the only one who determines what you are prepared to do in response. Yes. You determine what you are willing to tolerate, what you are prepared to lose, and what you are

Serenity Prayer And A New Curriculum

Adrian 19:47

comfortable changing about yourself.

Sarah 19:49

If we connect this to the bigger picture, the source text actually references the Serenity Prayer by Reinhold Nieber.

Adrian 19:55

Oh, I've heard of that.

Sarah 19:56

Yeah. While it's often used in addiction recovery, it acts as the perfect enduring summary of this entire stress management philosophy.

Adrian 20:03

How does it go again?

Sarah 20:04

It is about seeking the serenity to accept the things you cannot change, which are the facts and the other people. Seeking the courage to change the things you can work, which means overcoming your own unpreparedness and internal resistance.

Adrian 20:21

And the wisdom to know the difference.

Sarah 20:22

Exactly. Crucially developing the wisdom to know the difference between the two.

Adrian 20:26

The wisdom to know the difference. We spend an exorbitant amount of our professional energy fighting things we categorically cannot change and completely ignoring the preparations and attitudes we actually can change.

Sarah 20:38

And once you develop the mental skills to make those distinctions clearly, a world of endless possibilities for fulfillment opens up.

Adrian 20:46

You're not just reacting anymore.

Sarah 20:48

Right. You stop being a passive object that is constantly acted upon by the stressors around you, and you become an active participant in your own life.

Adrian 20:56

As we wrap up this deep dive, I want to leave you with a final lingering thought built directly on the conclusion of our source text. The author notes something really profound.

Sarah 21:06

The school curriculum part.

Adrian 21:08

Yes. When we went through traditional schooling, we were taught math, geography, science, and history. But the curriculum completely failed to teach us the actual life skills needed for navigating adult relationships and compounding workplace stress.

Sarah 21:23

We spend weeks learning how to calculate the area of a right triangle, but zero hours learning how to de-escalate our own biological fight or flight response during a performance review.

Adrian 21:33

Exactly. So if traditional education failed to teach you this, what if you stopped treating stress management as just a frantic band aid reaction to a bad day at the office?

Sarah 21:42

What if you made it proactive?

Adrian 21:43

Right. What if you started training it as your own personal daily curriculum? How would your career trajectory change if protecting your peace and practicing these mental skills was scheduled into your calendar with the exact same priority and the exact same preparation? as your most important client meeting.

Sarah 22:02

It really puts you back in the real cockpit.

Adrian 22:04

It does. Not the illusion where you control the weather and the traffic, but the real cockpit, where you meticulously control your own instruments, your own reactions, and your own navigation, no matter how fierce the storm gets outside.

Final Takeaways And Send Off

Adrian 22:17

Thank you so much for joining us on this deep dive. Take these tools, dismantle those barriers, and we'll see you next time.

Outro 22:24

This podcast was brought to you by the Institute for Mental Health and Well Being, building mentally healthy, high performing workplaces. Mental health matters