Dr. Seuss And Stress-Proof Boundaries

Stress doesn’t usually come from a lack of compliments. It comes from living with no guardrails while everyone else takes what they want from your time, attention, and energy. We take aim at the “just be positive” style of stress management and replace it with something sturdier: personal boundaries as a nonnegotiable tool for mental health and emotional resilience.

We start with the foundation you cannot skip: equal worth. If you don’t believe your time matters, your boundaries will always collapse under guilt, fear of conflict, or the need to be liked. From there, we dig into your personal value system, the ethics and priorities that define what you will and will not accept. That’s where people pleasing gets exposed for what it often becomes: an extraction cycle that quietly fuels burnout, sleepless nights, and chronic anxiety.

Then we get practical with a three-part boundary framework you can use immediately: rule, language, and stance. We apply it to classic workplace stress, like a boss dumping impossible workloads on you, and we talk through what to do when pressure escalates into intimidation. We also draft boundaries for unfair criticism, public embarrassment, and requests that cross legal or ethical lines, with clear scripts that stay direct without overexplaining.

If you want stronger boundaries, less workplace stress, and a stress management approach that actually holds up in real life, listen now, then share it with someone who needs a better way to say no. Subscribe and leave a review, and tell us: which boundary are you setting this week?

Hosted by our AI guides, Adrian and Sarah

Transcript

Affirmations And The Leaky Boat

Intro 0:00

This podcast is brought to you by the Institute for Mental Health and Wellbeing. Building mentally healthy, high-performing workplaces. Mental health matters.

Adrian 0:11

So um millions of people probably stood in front of mirrors this morning.

Sarah 0:16

Oh, absolutely.

Adrian 0:16

Just, you know, repeating those positive affirmations to try and cure their stress. I am worthy, I am great, all that.

Sarah 0:22

Right. The classic morning routine.

Adrian 0:24

Yeah. But according to Ches Moulton's research in uh how to get control of your stress, they are entirely wasting their time.

Sarah 0:32

Totally wasting it. Because uh a lack of compliments isn't what caused your stress in the first place, you know?

Adrian 0:38

Exactly. I mean treating stress with just like positive thinking. Yeah. It's basically like trying to bail out a leaky boat with a teaspoon.

Sarah 0:46

Yeah. A teaspoon. Right.

Adrian 0:47

And you're doing this without ever actually looking for the hole. Shouldn't we be figuring out how to plug the hole instead?

Sarah 0:54

We absolutely should. And I mean that hole in the boat is almost always a lack of personal boundaries. We treat the symptoms of stress, like the anxiety, the burnout, those sleepless nights, but we don't address the structural failure causing it.

Adrian 1:08

So we're just scooping water endlessly.

Sarah 1:10

Yeah. Right. Before we worry about scooping out the water, we really have to look at the structural integrity of the boat

Boundaries As The Real Fix

Sarah 1:16

itself.

Adrian 1:16

Well, welcome to today's deep dive, everyone. Because if you want to skip the superficial advice and really look at the underlying mechanics of why you actually feel overwhelmed, you are in the right place.

Sarah 1:26

You definitely are.

Adrian 1:28

Today we are opening up chapter eight of Moulton's text. And this chapter focuses entirely on drawing lines around your life. Our mission today is, well, it's straightforward, but incredibly structural. Very much so. We are going to explain why personal boundaries are the absolute ultimate non-negotiable tool for managing stress.

Sarah 1:49

Not just an option, non-negotiable.

Adrian 1:52

Right. And we aren't just leaving this in the realm of theory either. By the end of this deep dive, we are going to explicitly draft three boundaries for common workplace and social stressors. And we're going to use the author's very specific three-part framework that's rule, language, and stance.

Sarah 2:08

Yeah. And it is a vital framework.

Adrian 2:10

Yeah.

Sarah 2:11

Because it moves the conversation away from um abstract self-care like bubble baths and stuff.

Adrian 2:16

Oh, yeah, the bubble baths.

Sarah 2:17

Right. And it moves it into highly practical emotional armor. But building that armor requires a fundamental shift in how you view your own worth.

Adrian 2:26

Which is hard.

Sarah 2:27

It is. It demands that you take active responsibility for the lines you draw between yourself and, well, the demands of the rest

Equal Worth And Personal Value System

Sarah 2:35

of the world.

Adrian 2:35

Okay, so let's step away from the leaky boat for a second and look at why so much of the standard stress advice completely misses the mark.

Sarah 2:44

Yes.

Adrian 2:44

You mentioned shifting how you view your own worth.

Sarah 2:47

Yes.

Adrian 2:48

The author actually brings in a quote from Dr. Seuss to set the baseline for this entire concept.

Sarah 2:53

I love this part.

Adrian 2:54

It's so good. It goes, Today you are you. That is truer than true. There is no one alive who is youer than you.

Sarah 3:00

Which sounds super whimsical.

Adrian 3:02

Right. It sounds like a kid's book, but there is a heavy psychological weight to it when you apply it to stress.

Sarah 3:08

Totally. Because what's fascinating here is how the author uses it to make a rock solid point about human value.

Adrian 3:14

Yeah.

Sarah 3:14

If you are going to establish firm boundaries, you have to begin by acknowledging that you are a distinct individual with equal worth.

Adrian 3:21

Equal worth, that's the key.

Sarah 3:22

Exactly. You have no less worth than anyone else on this planet. Not your box, not your partner, not your friends. That distinct, equal worth is the true starting point.

Adrian 3:34

So if you don't actually believe your time is valuable.

Sarah 3:37

Then you will never possess the emotional fortitude required to put up a wall. It just won't happen.

Adrian 3:42

Which brings us right back to the mirror and those affirmations. I want to unpack the tension between the classic positive psychology routine and actual boundary setting.

Sarah 3:51

Oh, this is the trap so many people fall into.

Adrian 3:54

Right. You can tell yourself you are incredibly valuable all day long. But if you get to work and let your colleagues walk all over you by 10:00 AM, that affirmation is completely useless.

Sarah 4:06

Yep, it evaporates.

Adrian 4:07

The stress was born because your boundaries were violated, not because you forgot to tell yourself you were great.

Sarah 4:12

You are hitting on the massive logical flaw in a lot of modern stress management. Simply accepting that you have equal worth. That's just a prerequisite.

Adrian 4:21

Just the warm-up.

Sarah 4:22

Exactly. The core concept of the text is what the author calls the PVS or personal value system.

Adrian 4:27

The PVS.

Sarah 4:28

Right. No one can hand you a pre-written boundary. You have to look at your own PVS and determine what actually matters to you.

Adrian 4:35

Like your morals and stuff.

Sarah 4:36

Yes. What do you consider right and wrong? What are your ethics? How much of your personal time belongs to you versus your employer? You really have to define those specific lines before you can even think about defending them.

Adrian 4:49

Okay, let's unpack this.

Sarah 4:50

Yeah.

Adrian 4:51

Because here is where I struggle, and I suspect a lot of people listening struggle with this too.

Sarah 4:55

It's the hardest part.

Adrian 4:56

My instinct, honestly, when someone crosses a line, is to just absorb it.

Sarah 5:01

Yeah, just take the hit.

Adrian 5:02

Right.

Sarah 5:02

Yeah.

Adrian 5:03

Because if I base my rules entirely on my own personal value system and I start rigidly enforcing what works for me,

People Pleasing And Extraction Dynamics

Adrian 5:10

I mean, I am inevitably going to hurt people's feelings. Yes, you are. I might disappoint them. I might even lose friends if I suddenly just stop conforming to what they expect from me all the time.

Sarah 5:19

That is the structural tension of people pleasing right there.

Adrian 5:22

The instinct is always to compromise, to keep the peace. Of course.

Sarah 5:26

We default to a fawning response because we fear abandonment or we just hate conflict.

Adrian 5:31

Oh, I hate conflict. Most people do. But the source does not sugarcoat this reality at all. Establishing boundaries absolutely might mean disappointing people.

Sarah 5:41

It's practically guaranteed.

Adrian 5:42

Right. It might upset them or lead to the loss of relationships that were basically built on your endless compliance.

Sarah 5:49

Wow. Endless compliance.

Adrian 5:51

But we have to follow the logic to its natural conclusion here. It is not selfish to turn down demands when you cannot conform. Yeah. And as standing your ground and protecting your mental health means losing a friendship, then we really have to question the inherent value of that friendship in the first place.

Sarah 6:07

Oh man. That completely reframes the loss.

Adrian 6:10

It changes everything.

Sarah 6:11

If the core condition of a friendship or even a working relationship was that I had to suffer so the other person could be comfortable, that wasn't much of a relationship. It was an extraction.

Adrian 6:21

Extraction is the perfect word for it. It's parasitic. The only way to alleviate the stress you are suffering is to stop allowing the extraction. You have to live life on your terms, not someone else's. But I mean, overhauling your life to stop that extraction, that feels like an impossibly massive undertaking.

Sarah 6:41

It feels huge.

Adrian 6:42

If you are deeply conditioned to be a people pleaser, you can't just wake up tomorrow as an impenetrable fortress.

Sarah 6:48

No. And the author actually says Rome wasn't built in a day. Building boundaries is a lot like weightlifting.

Adrian 6:55

Okay, how so?

Sarah 6:56

Well, if you've never lifted a boundary in your life, you don't start by trying to bench press your boss's most unreasonable high-stakes demands.

Adrian 7:04

Right. You just get crushed.

Sarah 7:05

Exactly. That will just overwhelm your nervous system and cause you to drop the weight. You have to start with lightweights, small boundaries with acquaintances, setting minor limits on your time, and slowly building your emotional muscle.

Adrian 7:17

Okay, that makes it feel much more achievable. And the author categorizes the situations that require boundaries into three main buckets, right? So you can methodically plan where to start.

Sarah 7:27

Yes. Three specific buckets.

Adrian 7:29

So those three buckets are responsibilities, personal values, and relationships. Right. Responsibilities might involve situations where you know you are held accountable for tasks or managing others. Personal values involve pressure to compromise on your morals. And relationships cover the classic issues with partners or family where you prioritize their needs at the expense of your own.

Sarah 7:52

Perfect breakdown. And in any of those three buckets, the author requires a proper boundary to determine your response. This brings us to the mandatory three-part framework we talked about.

Rule Language Stance At Work

Adrian 8:04

The actual mechanics of it.

Sarah 8:05

Exactly. For any boundary to actually hold weight in the real world, it has to have three essential determinants. First, a specific boundary rule. Second, the language you will use to uphold that rule. And third, the stance you will take in enforcing it.

Adrian 8:20

Rule, language, stance.

Sarah 8:21

That's it.

Adrian 8:22

Here's where it gets really interesting. Let's look at how this mechanism actually operates in the real world, starting with the responsibilities bucket. The text walks through a workplace scenario that I think is pretty universally understood.

Sarah 8:32

Oh, everyone has lived this one.

Adrian 8:34

So your boss is putting you under intense pressure, piling significantly more work onto your desk than you can possibly handle within your normal working hours.

Sarah 8:44

And the corporate conditioning here is just fascinating.

Adrian 8:46

It really is.

Sarah 8:47

Because we fear being labeled as inefficient or not a team player, we default to a very weak response. We usually say something like, um, well, it's a lot to take on, but I'll do my best.

Adrian 9:00

I'll do my best. The ultimate people pleaser, Trev.

Sarah 9:03

The worst.

Adrian 9:03

Because what that actually translates to is I will sacrifice my sleep, my weekends, and my sanity to make this happen, just to avoid a moment of conflict with you right now.

Sarah 9:13

Exactly. And that weak response creates a really dangerous cycle. The boss gets the work done, you end up with elevated cortisol and burnout, and worse, you set the precedent that your time is endlessly flexible.

Adrian 9:25

Which means they'll just do it in next week.

Sarah 9:26

Precisely. So we have to apply the framework. Step one is the rule. And the author's example rule here is incredibly concise. It's just I will not take on more work than I can handle.

Adrian 9:37

: Short, sweet, and specific. There is no yes, no maybe in that rule. It's definitive.

Sarah 9:43

It has to be.

Adrian 9:44

But step two, the language. That's where people freeze.

Sarah 9:47

Yeah.

Adrian 9:48

Because I mean, how do you articulate that rule to a superior without sounding insubordinate?

Sarah 9:53

That's the tricky part, yeah.

Adrian 9:54

The text advises maintaining dignity and respect, but using completely direct language.

Sarah 9:59

No fluff.

Adrian 10:00

Right. The suggested phrasing is basically I appreciate you need to have this work done by a specific time, but in order for me to do it, it would require I work all the weekend. That's something I can't commit to, as I already have my Saturdays and Sundays committed to other things.

Sarah 10:15

And notice what that language does not do.

Adrian 10:17

What's that?

Sarah 10:18

It does not overexplain. It doesn't offer a desperate apology. And it absolutely doesn't leave the door open for negotiation.

Adrian 10:25

No. Maybe if I move things around.

Sarah 10:27

Nope. It simply states a logistical fact about availability.

Adrian 10:30

, which leads to step three, the stance. Right. The text describes the stance as being assertive, open, and honest, taking responsibility for yourself. But let me bring up a flawed human instinct here.

Sarah 10:41

Please do.

Adrian 10:42

What if the boss escalates?

Sarah 10:44

Oh.

Adrian 10:45

Because the text specifically mentions this. What if they push back, imply you are letting the team down, or even threaten to put a negative mark on your performance review?

Sarah 10:54

The bullying tactics.

Adrian 10:56

Exactly. And the text suggests bringing up HR and using the word intimidation. To someone who is already terrified of conflict, bringing up HR feels like dropping a nuclear bomb on your own career. Isn't that the nuclear option?

Sarah 11:10

It does feel extreme, yes. But we have to weigh the reality of the situation. Okay. The author anticipates this kind of retaliatory bullying. If a boss is threatening your career simply because you refuse to work uncompensated weekends, you are already in a hostile environment.

Adrian 11:27

That's a good point. The environment is already toxic.

Sarah 11:29

Right. You have to weigh the cost of compliance against the cost of the conflict. Wow.

Adrian 11:33

The cost of compliance.

Sarah 11:35

The conflict of standing up for yourself is intense, yes.

Adrian 11:37

Yeah.

Sarah 11:38

But it's temporary. The compliance is a permanent state of stress and exploitation.

Adrian 11:43

The compliance is a permanent state of stress. That completely changes the math on whether the conflict is actually worth it. Are you prepared to continually cancel your personal life just to appease someone who uses threats as a management tool?

Sarah 11:58

When you frame it like that, the answer is obvious.

Adrian 12:00

Obviously, no.

Sarah 12:01

But that realization requires immense emotional resolve. It is the heavy lifting we talked about earlier.

Adrian 12:07

Yeah, that's bench pressing.

Sarah 12:08

Exactly. But failing to lift that weight guarantees your stress levels will

Boundaries For Criticism And Shame

Sarah 12:13

never drop.

Adrian 12:13

Okay, so let's transition to applying this weightlifting to what the author calls N stressors.

Sarah 12:18

Yes, the negative stressor.

Adrian 12:20

Right. These are stressors that specifically attack your self-worth or try to manipulate your compliance. And the text challenges the reader to devise boundaries, you know, filling in the rule, language, and stance for three specific end stressors.

Sarah 12:34

This is a great exercise.

Adrian 12:35

Let's draft these out for the listeners, starting with N stressor number one, unfair criticism.

Sarah 12:40

So the author provides a really vital psychological distinction here. If you asked for advice, or if the criticism is genuinely constructive and fair, you absorb it and you grow. But unsolicited, unfair criticism is a different beast entirely. The source notes that this kind of criticism is usually delivered for the benefit of the sender, not the recipient.

Adrian 13:02

Uh, so it's not even about you.

Sarah 13:04

No, it's about them asserting dominance or just venting their own frustration.

Adrian 13:09

See, if someone criticizes me unfairly, my immediate instinct is to JADE. You know, justify, argue, defend, and explain.

Sarah 13:17

Oh, we all want to JADE.

Adrian 13:18

I want to pull out a spreadsheet and prove exactly why they are factually wrong.

Sarah 13:22

But by doing that, you hand over your power.

Adrian 13:24

I do.

Sarah 13:25

Yeah. Defending yourself means you've accepted the premise that their criticism is valid enough to warrant a debate in the first place. You are engaging in a game where they make the rules.

Adrian 13:32

Oh man. So if the goal is to not play the game at all, the rule we draft here could be simply, I will ignore unsolicited criticism.

Sarah 13:41

Yes. Keep it simple. And the language needs to expose the boundary violation without inviting further debate.

Adrian 13:49

So what do you say?

Sarah 13:50

You could say something like, I hear what you're saying, but I didn't ask for feedback on this, and I am comfortable with how I am handling it.

Adrian 13:57

I didn't ask for feedback. That completely defangs the situation.

Sarah 14:01

It really does.

Adrian 14:02

But let's talk about the A how W of the stance. The text says the stance should be neutral and unbothered. Unbothered is the key word. But how do I physically maintain an unbothered stance when my nervous system is screaming at me to fight back?

Sarah 14:17

It's tough. An unwavering stance is heavily physiological. Your body will absolutely want to go into a fight or flight response.

Adrian 14:25

My heart rate goes crazy.

Sarah 14:26

Right. So you manage the stance by keeping your feet firmly planted. You maintain neutral eye contact, not glaring, just looking at them calmly, and you deliberately slow your breathing.

Adrian 14:37

Slow the breathing.

Sarah 14:38

You drop your shoulders, you physically embody a brick wall. A brick wall doesn't argue back, right? It just stands there, totally unbothered by whatever is thrown at it.

Adrian 14:47

I love that the visual of embodying a brick wall. But um what happens when that private unfair criticism gets an audience? Because that brings up a whole new dynamic of stress, which leads us to the second end stressor, public embarrassment or shaming.

Sarah 15:06

Yeah, the audience dynamic changes everything because the stakes are suddenly social.

Adrian 15:10

Right.

Sarah 15:11

And if we connect this to the bigger picture, the text offers a really sharp psychological insight into people who do this. People who purposely shame others in front of a group are usually projecting their own instability.

Adrian 15:24

Interesting.

Sarah 15:24

They use shaming as an attempt to cover their own shortfalls. Generally, habitual shamers are mentally unstable, deeply insecure, and suffer from low self-esteem.

Adrian 15:34

So they need the audience's validation to feel superior.

Sarah 15:37

Exactly.

Adrian 15:38

It's like someone throwing mud at you just to hide the fact that their own hands are dirty.

Sarah 15:41

That is a perfect analogy.

Adrian 15:43

If you realize that the person embarrassing you is actually just broadcasting their own deep insecurities, I mean it takes away so much of the sting.

Sarah 15:49

It really does.

Adrian 15:50

The embarrassment isn't actually about you at all, it's about their inability to cope with themselves.

Sarah 15:56

They are just trying to recruit the audience against you. So drafting a firm boundary here is crucial to interrupt that recruitment.

Adrian 16:03

Okay, so let's draft it. The rule for this one needs to be absolute. I will not accept being publicly shamed or embarrassed.

Sarah 16:11

Absolute. And the language then needs to expose the inappropriateness of their behavior, but without rolling in the mud with them.

Adrian 16:18

Keep your hands clean.

Sarah 16:20

Right. You are talking to them, but you are performing for the audience. You could say, if you have an issue with my work, we can discuss it privately and respectfully in your office. I will not engage in this conversation in front of an audience.

Adrian 16:33

Wow. That is incredibly powerful because it highlights their lack of professionalism while simultaneously establishing your own boundary.

Sarah 16:42

It flips the script entirely.

Adrian 16:43

And for the physical stance here, I imagine it's about physical disengagement.

Sarah 16:48

It is about removing their audience.

Adrian 16:50

Okay.

Sarah 16:50

You deliver the language firmly, and then you physically break eye contact, you turn your body, and you walk away.

Adrian 16:55

Just walk away.

Sarah 16:56

You refuse to absorb their insecurity. You hold your ground by removing yourself from their stage, knowing that their behavior is a reflection of them, not you.

Ethical Lines With Zero Gray

Adrian 17:07

Which brings us to the third end stressor from the text. And this one tests the very core of your personal value system. Someone asks you to do something illegal or unethical.

Sarah 17:18

This is a huge one. The pressure to bend the rules for someone else's convenience is a massive source of stress, especially in professional environments.

Adrian 17:27

Oh, yeah. Like a colleague asking you to cover for them while they secretly take time off.

Sarah 17:32

Or a manager asking you to manipulate a report to make the numbers look better.

Adrian 17:36

And the instinct, again, is to just go along to get along. We rationalize it by saying, oh, it's just this one time, or it's really not a big deal.

Sarah 17:43

But the author's warning here is stark.

Adrian 17:46

Very stark.

Sarah 17:46

Your moral and ethical values are a vital part of who you are. The source warns that if you let down your moral values the moment they become inconvenient for someone else, then what good are they? They're useless.

Adrian 17:58

Right. A value isn't a value if it's conditional.

Sarah 18:00

Exactly. Every time you compromise your ethics to please someone else, you erode your own personal value system. And breaking the law or compromising your ethics ruins what you stand for.

Adrian 18:13

And that internal erosion must cause a profound lingering stress. Because you are living out of alignment with your own beliefs.

Sarah 18:22

It is exhausting. So the rule here cannot have any gray area.

Adrian 18:26

Let's draft it.

Sarah 18:26

The rule is I will not compromise my ethical or legal values for anyone.

Adrian 18:31

Zero gray area. And uh the language must reflect that certainty. It has to be completely devoid of weakness.

Sarah 18:38

Right. You cannot say, um, I'm not sure we should do this.

Adrian 18:40

Yeah.

Sarah 18:41

You say, I cannot fulfill this request because it goes against my ethical principles, or simply, I am not willing to do something that breaks the rules.

Adrian 18:49

And the stance is resolute. You don't offer alternative ways to bend the rules, you just protect the core of your PVS.

Sarah 18:55

The underlying mechanism there is taking radical responsibility for your own integrity. But you know, this raises an important question that the author actually addresses right at the end of this section.

Boundaries That Evolve Over Time

Sarah 19:04

What's that? Life isn't static. You will change jobs, your relationships will evolve, your circumstances will shift over time. Right. You may need to amend the specific lines of your boundaries as you move through different phases of your life.

Adrian 19:18

That makes sense. The lines might need to be drawn in different places depending on the context. Like a boundary you set with a roommate in your twenties will probably look very different from a boundary you set with a spouse in your forties.

Sarah 19:30

Precisely. But the author makes a critical distinction here. While the lines themselves might shift, the mechanism, the rules, the language, and the stance should never be watered down.

Adrian 19:41

The architecture stays the same.

Sarah 19:43

Yes. The architecture of how you enforce your boundaries must remain rigid and strong, even if the specific application changes. You don't abandon the framework just because the scenery

Closing Challenge To Draft Yours

Sarah 19:53

changes.

Adrian 19:53

So what does this all mean? Let's pull all of these threads together for you listening. Personal boundaries are not just about stubbornly saying no to people.

Sarah 20:01

Not at all.

Adrian 20:01

They are a highly structured three-part architectural system, rule, language, stance. And this system is specifically designed to protect your personal value system from the endless extraction demands of the outside world. Well said. You can't just slap a positive affirmation over a boundary violation and expect your stress to go away. You have to plug the hole in the boat. You have to acknowledge your equal worth, define your rules, and be willing to face the temporary discomfort of conflict in order to save yourself from permanent stress.

Sarah 20:31

It is entirely about taking back agency over your own well-being. And um I actually want to leave you with a thought that builds on what we discussed regarding that second end stressor, the people who publicly shame or embarrass you.

Adrian 20:44

Oh, yeah. The shamers.

Sarah 20:46

We establish that these individuals are often projecting their own deep insecurities, right? They are throwing mud to hide their own dirty hands. Right. But think about what happens when you implement this boundary framework. When you stand firm as that unbothered brick wall with a clear rule, direct language, and an unwavering stance, you are doing more than just protecting yourself.

Adrian 21:07

What do you mean?

Sarah 21:08

Could your firm, unapologetic boundary actually be the very catalyst that forces them to confront their own unmanaged stress?

Adrian 21:17

Oh wow.

Sarah 21:18

Yeah. By refusing to be an absorbent sponge for their toxicity, you hold up a mirror. Your boundary becomes the hard surface that forces them to finally look at themselves.

Adrian 21:27

That is an incredible paradigm shift to walk away with. Establishing boundaries isn't just an act of self-preservation, it might actually be the mechanism that forces reality checks on the people around you.

Sarah 21:39

Exactly.

Adrian 21:39

Well, thank you for joining us on this deep dive into the underlying mechanics of stress. We hope this exploration gave you the tools you were looking for to stop baling water and start fixing the ship.

Sarah 21:50

Start building that armor.

Adrian 21:51

Yes. Don't wait for the stress to overflow. Start building that emotional muscle, drafting your own rules, language, and stance today. Plug the hole in the boat. We'll catch you on the next deep dive.

Outro 22:02

This podcast was brought to you by the Institute for Mental Health and Well-Being, building mentally healthy, high-performing workplaces. Mental health matters.