#7. Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope (1997) w/ Michael

In this podcast, Andrew reviews Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope with Michael

~ FILM SUGGESTIONS ~

Comment about films you guy's want to see, and I'll credit you.

~ HOST ~

Andrew Heilman is a student film producer, owner operator of Heilman Productions (a free-lance media/film production company in Silicon Valley) and social media editor.

~ GUESTS ~

The guests for this show are people who are not actively seeking a career in the film and television industries.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome to Both Sides, a podcast between a film industry insider and an outsider to get their unique perspectives on the movies. I'm your host, Andrew Heinelman. Today my guest is my friend Michael, and we'll be watching Star Wars Episode 1, The Phantom Menace. Stay tuned till the end to hear our final reviews of the film. In case you need a refresher or you've never seen it, here's the story in a nutshell. A young Jedi named Obi-Wan Kenobi and his master discover a gifted slave boy, Anakin Skywalker, while protecting a queen and uncovering a Sith plot that sets the stage for the fall of the Republic. Let's talk about this movie. And so, what'd you think of it?

SPEAKER_00 0:46

I thought it was really good. I do want to get into this like right off the bat so I don't forget. A lot of people say that they should have listened to Yoda, and I I believe that as they have always said with the Jedi's ability to see the future, that it is a unclear thing. The future is not a stable thing that they can see. I believe that the the future Yoda was seeing was the future that actually happened because of their hesitancy in the Jedi Council. If they would have just given him the if they would have just given him like the respect he deserved from the beginning, trained him, taught him, you know, like actually taught him and trained him, you know what I mean? Uh on a deep level, in the actual like Jedi system, not just as a fucking Padawan of Obi-Wan. Not to say Obi-Wan failed, but you know, if he was accepted and not an outcast, then I don't think Darth Vader happens. Uh that's just what I think. I think that Yoda and the Jedi Council's hesitancy with Anakin is Priam Numero Uno of the case that the Jedi Council is fucking lame as hell.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Yeah, I mean, the whole reason he turned on them is that they would not give him his because Anakin's whole thing is he wants and desires power. And he wants that through um his experience, his traumatic experience with his mom in the second one, which we'll see. Um he is just traumatized beyond belief and absolutely needs power, not in a manipulative takeover the galaxy kind of way yet, but he just wants security and power and resources and people behind him. And the Jedi Council wasn't willing to give him any of that. So it makes sense him going to someone else who offers all the help that he needs and all the training and power that he wants. I mean, it's this, you know, tale as old as time of these people unwilling to take certain risks and unable to take on certain people through personal reasons, limiting the success that that people can have if they accepted, you know, the chosen one into their system.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

It's not even just that they denied him the power from whatever we see in the second one, which I like I said, I barely remember any of the thing that happened in this movie at all, so the likelihood that I've seen any of the prequels are pretty low at this point. Um but regardless on what we see there, Anakin is young. He's young and emotional. He doesn't need to be told and cut off. He doesn't need to be cut off. He needs to be embraced and then taught what to do with the power that he seeks. It's never been a bad thing to be a powerful Jedi. It's about how you use it. And they didn't they refuse they refused in any way, shape, or they basically refused to acknowledge him at all. Uh and that through that, they pushed him directly into the Sith hands, like you said. Uh I just wanted to add on to that because, like, genuinely, I think anyone who defends the Jedi Council uh isn't watching the same movie that I just see. Let me put it on the other thing.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Well, I mean it's I love these movies because of how different they are than the originals, because they are very political and they are very religious. I mean, it feels very, very, very similar to like the story of Christ, uh, for example. Like the the the parallels are crazy. Like, you know, Jesus' mom conceiving without a man, and then Anakin being conceived without a man, and then the religious folk of the time refusing to recognize the coming Messiah and not giving them any, you know, support or power, and then you know, casting them out basically. And we see that parallel in this story. And I think it's it's you know, it's like if Jesus was like crazy and you know, super emotional and stuff, like I'm sure he would have become like a Darth Vader sort of character because they're the they're the Messiah, they're the chosen one, they're the the most powerful being in that form. You know, it's just I love that George Lucas went in that direction with really giving an ethos to the you know, as a prequel, you have to establish like how they got to where they got to. And people don't like these movies because of how in depth they are about where we got to. You know, they're very in depth about the politics of the old republic and the religion and how all that stuff went down. And they'd rather just see the now. They'd rather see a people in turmoil rebelling against a government, which is sort of what this um this movie is, but it's a lot more deep than that. It's not as simplistic.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

I agree. Uh I I see all that, I understand where they come from saying, like, why do we need to see this? We could just get because Warhammer does this kind of thing a lot. Like Warhammer 40k, where like there's a lot of politics going on in the background, but usually, especially in like the games and like the video forms of this canon, uh the politics happens in the background and you get updates on it like on the front line. So basically, like your commander's asking for reinforcements, politics happens, and you're told that you don't get reinforcements because you're not that like one of the generals said that you're not that important as another place. And so I can understand that you can have the politics as a background opponent and not necessarily make it front and center, but I don't see how what they like that scene wasn't that long. Like that was what, like a 10-minute scene, and that was only like one part of the entire movie. I I think this is just an additional thing, like I said with the first two movies, like there's something someone complaining just to complain because they don't understand. Like the Palpatine being able to revive himself thing when you don't like you say, people try to treat this movie like it's a kid's movie. And George Lucas taking back control for the prequels and trying to add some depth and flavor to it is completely welcome to me. I really like this one.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's just that George Lucas knows his audience. I mean, the things that I don't really love about these series of movies, and I I really do enjoy them, I think that they're great, but he knows that his audience is very young. So everything is pretty much on the nose, you know, about what's going on and what people think and their emotions. It's all very clear. There's no real any real wriggle room for wiggle room for interpretation um in that sense. And then also his humor is just not my favorite. Like, do we really need like Jar Jar like stepping in shit and like all of this kind of like like do we really need the leader of the gun guns to, you know, spit and everything all over the place? Now I understand why he wants to add those things, is because he's trying to sell a world of weird details that surround each of in one of these characters. And I get I can sympathize with an audience that doesn't w really care about all those little details to add this little childish whimsy into each and every one of these races. And it puts me off a little bit, but it doesn't put me off enough to discount my love for these movies as designs, the costumes, the I love the creatures themselves and the ships and the and I really like these plots that they have. Like, how how does anyone tell a story about a taxation trade federation that is manipulated by someone to hold a planet hostage until they can hold a planet hostage until they can get in writing the ability to basically, you know, run and own the planet and do whatever. And then you have the queen that needs to write that treaty escape, and then she goes to the the the galaxy's government for help, and then they don't trust her because they're being manipulated by the same trade federation, and then she has to go back and defend her city by herself, and then she gets the help of the natives, and then the natives in her take back her city. Like that plot is genius. And I don't like that no one can no one who hate who hates these movies can really see that. They don't look at it on paper, they don't they don't look at the elements that make this movie so interesting. And I think a lot of it just comes down to entitled people who wanted more Lukon and Leia and were disappointed when they didn't get it. And, you know, I get that, you know, when this movie came out, they waited 16 years. I'm sure these people these fans of Star Wars watched, you know, Star Wars opening night with their grandparents who were no longer there, or their siblings who are no longer there. So I get the emotional tying that these people have to what they think Star Wars is, but the moment that any I mean, it's like you've we've talked about this before in private about is the same thing with Borderlands 3. It's the sense of this entitlement of an attachment to a franchise and the unwillingness to accept anything new.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Yeah. I most of my favorite things of Star Wars honestly comes from the prequels. Anakin, Mace Windu, uh Dooku, Maw, uh It's like all of the coolest characters come from the prequels with the coolest fights, the coolest premise, and an additional aspect of politics, which I like. So, like, I don't know. I I know what my score is for the movie already.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

But well, the score I like it a lot. I think the critic score, let me uh remind myself. Okay, so this is probably this is probably the worst-rated movie we've seen together um yet. Critics gave this movie a 54% on Rotten Tomatoes out of a hundred, and audiences gave it a fifty-nine percent.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

That is that is actually shocking.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Yes, I'm look- I'm reading through all these thousands of I'm reading through all these thousands of reviews, and it's literally like someone saying, I love the fights and politics and everything in this movie, and then another person saying, I hate all the fights and all the politics in this movie. I love the story, I think the story is interesting. I hate the story, I think it dumb it's dumb. So it's just really one of those really controversial um movies where neither one really offers a uh a good argument to uh uh it's really just people yelling at each other. It's not either side like explaining why they like something, it's literally just saying they like it because they like it, and then the other side saying they don't like it because they don't like it.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

While I I can't believe that that has such a like I guess right down the middle score, like how are there so many people who dislike this movie? Especially if you're a Star Wars fan, as it also sets up so much other cool shit. I just that is very shocking to me, especially since this isn't even the one where Anakin's talking about the sand. And so like that, you know what? Just finding that out, I'm adding one point to my score. So uh my score is a 91. It was gonna be a 90, two points better than uh the original New Hope. Yeah, two points, yeah, yeah, yeah, New Hope. Um I thought this movie had everything. I thought that the conversations was way better, the designs were way better, the technology was way better, everything that I liked about uh the first two movies that we watched, three and four, was in this movie, but in its prime example, maybe uh well I do agree that four was better than this movie, but this movie was definitely better than three, in my opinion. So it I mean I I it's got it's a ninety-one. It would have been a ninety, but then all these dumbasses are shitting on a movie that's perfectly fine just because there's some politics in it or something, and so they need to get fucked 91.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

I will um add one more thing, because I'm interested in seeing where you stand now, because before we watched these movies, um it was about Metaclorians. You said that you were really against them and that you were you thought that they were stupid. Oh, that's true. Um my point of view is that, again, if you're gonna make a prequel to a franchise, or a prequel to a trilogy, that means you explain things. You explain how things work. I mean, that's just how that's how I'd I'd think a traditional prequel goes. And if you're gonna establish that there's such a thing as a Jedi Council, and that there's such a thing as Jedi training, and that you're I like the idea that Jedi are not just a mysterious force, but they're also like the political army of the Grand Republic. I'd rather have that than just all of the Jedi throughout all of these movies being, you know, kind of hermits. Um I like that they had some sort of bearing over the universe and then they lost it. But it makes sense that if you're gonna establish there's such a thing as training and there's a vetting process and that all of these kind of things, just like in everything in the world, just like with credit scores, just like with age, just like all these metrics we use to determine whether or not someone is fit to do something, it makes sense that we have some sort of calculable resource to determine whether someone is fit to you know be in a certain rank per se of the Jedi. So I wasn't like I was kind of iffy about metaclorians, but now I'm kind of like all for them because it in this kind of world that you're trying to establish some sort of structure and reason and realism with it, I'm all for interpretive things of like not really knowing where everything kind of goes. And I don't think the establishing of Metaclorians, at least the way they talk about it in this movie, takes away a whole lot of mysticism. It takes away some mysticism, but it doesn't take away all of it, and it adds the ability to determine whether or not someone can join a Jedi Council besides just, oh, I think you're, you know, some arbitrary thing of, you know, oh I don't think you should be here, or oh, I think you're too emotional, or whatever. Like it's it gives some reason for it instead of it all being arbitrary.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

I uh I okay, so the o like, just before I talk about the reasons why I don't like Metaclorians, just to bounce off your uh argument, I have one thing to say to it, I guess. And that is that, like, through George Lucas' attempt to make the force less arbitrary and give the audience a way to measure how important Anakin is, he half-assed the introduction and the continuation of Metaclorians uh throughout the entire series by making the measurement only used in relation to Anakin. They only ever use it in a comparison to Anakin. What about how many Metaclorians Yoda has towards Mace Windu? We don't get any description of anyone else's Metaclorians in relation to anyone else besides their relation to Anakin, and the only relation we get from that is that Anakin has way more. So, like whereas what you say, sure, I don't mind any of that. That's like creative licensing, you know, you you deserve to have your, you know, ability to explain or not explain whatever the hell you want when it's your product. I just don't think he implemented it even well. The only way he implemented it was to explain one single part of the entire lore and didn't use it to explain anything else or even show any other relations. Like how strong was Mace Windu in comparison to Qui-Gon and uh and Obi-Wan. We have zero idea. We only know that Obi-Wan was able to beat him, and Qui-Gon was killed by him.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Right. Yeah, I I agree that it was underutilized for sure. And I don't know, George Lucas has a weird tendency to do that. Like he'll he'll introduce pod racing and then use it once for the entire franchise. He'll introduce Metaclorians and then explain it once in the entire franchise. He really likes to keep things moving, which you know it that's just a writing and directing decision, and I understand it. But I know you are you're a big powerscaling guy, so you like to see these videos and essays about like how how strong Rocky is versus you know um what's uh Rambo or whatever. So I 100% agree. Like they they could have for sure gone more in depth about the specific value that you know they that they have with each and every Jedi. I'm just saying that in that's in that specific way, I think that it makes sense to introduce something like that. And while it's underutilized, I still think that it's better to have that than just to say, you know, I think he's the chosen one because, you know, whatever other justification. I I like that we know intuitively, because the introduction of Metaclorians, that you know, there's some sort of hierarchy inside the Jedi Council, and there's a difference between a master and a knight and a Padawan and in a learner and all these kind of things. Um and yeah, 100% it would be nice to actually know the the values of all of these characters, though you know, it's like introducing such a thing as a certain currency, and then being like, oh, like you introduce a currency called the Bloons or whatever, and then it would be like, oh, it would be so nice to know like how do you actually calculate this currency? Like, what is a quarter of this currency called? Is it called a quarter? Is it called a you know, is it called some alien word or whatever? You know, introducing a currency and whatever and and underutilizing it by not explaining the different smaller bits of that currency by the different values is a misstep. But it's the kind of thing that you don't really do that much in a movie. It's more that's that's more of like a comic book novel sort of detailed information about a franchise that you get. Sure, it can be said in passing, but at that point it kind of fills time, and that's the problem that a lot of people have with these movies and how they go about explaining a lot of these deeper detailed processes is that they say them in like you know, one-off sentences, or they say them in between a bus ride or something. And I understand that kind of frustration with how they establish the story.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Yeah, I my problem with Metaclorians is as a power system, like you said, I like power scaling, I'm in the community quite a bit. I understand it on a pretty deep level. Uh, as a power system, Metaclorans is completely useless to the entire story. Like, there is no way you can use Metaclorians to explain to someone else how anything works as the as A force user. Whereas a any as in any other power scaling, like or any other power system from other medias, I mean not any other, I'm sure there's other ones that are like this, but like they are fleshed out in a way that you can explain, like I can explain to you the power system of Dragon Ball right now, and it'd be very easy. Like it's not and and not you saying that like it's a little bit of a misrepresentation of like my argument when you say that like I want every character's Metaclorian count. You just gotta give anyone else anything, any other indicator. There is none. It is only used for one character and his relation to the rest of the entire cast, which you could also sum up without even ever introducing Metaclorians by just saying that he is twice as strong as anyone I've ever seen. One statement fixes that entire power system that he doesn't even flesh out.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Right, but he's still a kid. Like, if you say, if you bring a kid to a Jedi Council meeting and then say, you know, he is the strongest, badass, you know, most calculated I've ever seen, it makes more sense to me to attribute some value to it beyond just his personal, you know, anecdote of why Anakin should be selected. And the d the outright denial of this character, even given the Metaclorians, even strengthens the bias of the Jedi Council even more, in my opinion. It would make the Jedi Council's decision to not train him make more sense if Qui-Gon's only justification is that, you know, his own personal anecdotes. It makes sense that he has some viable thing to show them beyond just his own personal experience to try to advocate for Anakin, and then him it makes his denial even, you know, even more harsh, in my opinion. But I agree that it's it's underutilized, it would be it would be 100% nice and warranted to to be able to use the system in a more accurate way. But I also think that I as someone who likes the interpretive mysteriousness of the force, I think he went about it in a way that added some structure, but not too much. Like, I don't know. I thought that it was handled well, and I thought it was interesting, but it's all good.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Yeah, I I I definitely disagree. I think it's used as a narrative piece, it's not used as a power structure system in any way, shape, or form. And the only thing it does as that narrative piece is just add like a little bit of lore that he doesn't flesh out. And literally, like you said, again, kind of misrepresenting what I was saying with the whole uh he's the strongest, most badass, focused kid. No, you could literally just say his connection to the force is stronger than anyone he's ever felt connected to the force before, which is how he George Lucas uses the force in conversation with any other Jedi in the uh or Sith user in the rest of the entire series besides Anakin in just the prequels. Not even Darth Vader. Never bring up, you know. I mean, I understand Vader, the Metaclorians weren't even there then, but I'm just saying, like, it's literally only used for one character in the prequels. That is not a fleshed-out or complete thought at all. It's a ham-fisted, in my eyes, a ham-fisted, like, thrown-in idea that he didn't even flesh out himself. I agree. Every other, every other interaction, every other interaction between any force user throughout the rest of the entire series, even in the sequels, or I meant the prequels, are is simply explained through quote unquote their connection to the force. So you could have just said, Wygon could have just said, his connection to the force is more than all of us standing here, and he's just a child. He must be the chosen one. And that would hold just as much p uh like evidence, because all of them can feel the force, as bringing in the pseudo-science of Metaclorian.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Right, and again, that that is a hundred percent just a flaw. You know, how dare I say there's a flaw with George Lucas, but that is a flaw with his style of storytelling. Is that he again he likes to introduce he likes to introduce things and then not really go with them for too long or flesh them out.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

And that's you know, that's just kind of makes sense for that.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Yeah, but it would be cool to see some sort of spin-off, or you know, I don't know. I think it would have been more cool to see more of those things, but you're gonna see like a lot of that in the in the prequel trilogy. You're gonna see not a lot of big chunks like that, but you'll see little details, you'll see weapons that never come back, creatures that never come back, you know, little, you know, it's just I I get it, I understand what he's trying to do, but I I equate them as both this as similar. Um I like to see these ideas come back and be more fleshed out and see characters last longer than you know ten seconds on a screen, personally. But anyway, we're we're getting all the time. No, go on.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

I just felt like there's a big difference between pod racing, which is like it just like an event, and then the force, which is a solid idea that's been through the entire series that he's ham fisting for like one character. That's how I see it.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Right, but even but even in the force we get to see even in the force we get to see things for a one-off time. Like we get to see Um in Attack of the Clones, Yoda uses some sort of move where he absorbs like lightning strikes, and we only see that once. We get to see, you know, a double-bladed lightsaber once. Like it's just it's a bunch of that little stuff. And it doesn't mean that it has to come back. It just means it would be cool to see some of those ideas in some of more than that's why this franchise has so many spin-offs and novels and comic books and all sorts of stuff, is because George Lucas's specific style of introducing something and then immediately moving on left it open for all sorts of I bet there's so many novels that go in depth about Metaclorians and what all of the you know canon stuff that calculates a lot of the powers and does their own power scaling and whatever. But you're not gonna see a lot of that from George because he's the kind of person that likes to introduce something and then move on and move on to the next next thing that's cool, and then just leave his own answers and his own justifications for everything in his own, you know, his own mind. But anyway, I'm gonna give this movie, let's see, I'm trying to remember. I think I gave Empire like 93 or something, 94. No, I think I gave Empire like 99 or 98 or something. I gave it really high. And then I gave a new hope like 92. Um I'm gonna give Phantom Menace a 90 as well. Umly because I understand and empathize with a lot of the people that dislike this movie for particular emotional reasons, and I can see where they're coming through, coming from where it's not exactly. You know, these movies are weird. They're not these, they're not these Shakespearean stories of perfect everything. They're weird movies that take place in weird planets with weird dialogue, uh, weird dialects and accompanying weird dialogue. And judging that as, you know, bad isn't necessarily accurate, in my opinion. I don't think it's bad. Um there are prequel movies that I like more than this, um, just because I feel the gravitas of their character arcs more in the the future entries, but I've always been a real big advocate for Phantom Menace. I've always thought it was a great movie and a cool plot with great characters. I think Qui-Gon Jin's probably my favorite Jedi. I think he's just the most headstrong, and I like his treatment of the Jedi Council and the enemy. Like he's he's kind of this moderate personality that doesn't take everyone at face value, including his own Jedi Order. And um, I don't know, something about that whole character just really ties this movie together for me, and especially compared to the other performances and the directing style of Lucas. It's not like the other performances are bad, but in this movie, Liam Neeson really does just like he's that lead that you need to hold a movie together with all the side characters to support him. So you say 91% and I'll say 90%.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

Yes, I agree. I'm surprised that you like this more than or I meant that you like this less than three. I guess it's just the innovation and the the film photography.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Are you calling three a new hope or Empire Strikes Back?

SPEAKER_00 31:32

A new hope. Isn't that that? A new hope is four.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

A new hope is four. It's Phantom Mass.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Oh you're no, you're right, you're right, you're right, you're right. Why'd you wait this long to fucking tell me that, you scooner?

SPEAKER_01 31:49

I didn't want to interrupt you.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

God damn it, Andrew. Yeah, four. I'm surprised you like this movie more than four.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

I love four. It's got I meant the other way around. Oh, yeah, that's right. Well, what did I put a new hope at? I think it's like 92 or something. Something like that. Yeah, something like that. And then you gave it like 88, yeah. Um again, like I love a new hope mainly for the history reasons, and you know, we don't have Star Wars without a new hope, and we don't have George Lucas being able to build museums and do all the kind of stuff that he does without a new hope. Um, and it's as a movie, I probably like it less than pretty much all the prequels. I'm very excited to see what you think of Attack of the Clones, because I've also always really loved Attack of the Clones. But that one that one is very, very divisive. People hate this movie, uh Phantom Menace, because of how different it is, but people hate Attack of the Clones for very obvious reasons. And um it'll be interesting to see what you think about it and if you agree or not. But uh anyway, guys, that'll be it for this recording. Thank you for watching. Bye bye. Thank you for listening to both sides. What movie do you want us to review next? Let me know, and I'll credit you in your username. Like and follow if you enjoyed this podcast, and to stay notified of future reviews. Remember, your right to your opinion matters. Peace out.