Chapter 6: Character Development

(Spoiler, It's mostly ours...)

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Hey guys, it's Dana and I again. I'm Judy. This is here we are again talking about uh reading between the years. So today we're gonna talk about a couple things, um, including death. So trigger warning if you experienced this, um, either with a family member or a child. Um, yeah, um, listen to us anyway, because I think it might help.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Yeah, I it's been so funny. I I work at a hospital, in case anybody doesn't know. I'm sure you why would you know? Um, but I watch this family. I go out for a walk at lunchtime when if I'm lucky, and I watch this family come out. So there's about six people. They're all probably about my age, 60s or so. They look similar, so I know they're brothers and sisters. So they go out at lunch and out in the parking lot. There's a lot of, uh, you gonna ride with with me or am I gonna take you? And where are we meeting? Okay, we're going to Applebee's. Okay, well then we'll meet you there. And then I'd go for my walk and I'd come back, and then you could see them all kind of coming from different cars in the parking lot, and then all heading back upstairs. So I could tell this was a family of children, right? They're going up, either a parent or some loved one that they're all associated with is in the process of dying or is very ill. And it was just amazing to watch it. I've been there, you've probably been there, where it's like you're you're all there. You may not, you know, you it just is a gathering, right? You're it's a gathering, somebody is passing, you're all together. Maybe they hadn't, they seemed to get along. So it wasn't like there didn't seem to be any problems with that. But I was kind of jealous of these folks having this this time, you know, where you still had someone that you could you were coming together to kind of honor that person. I'm one of those weird ones, though, that I thought that it was an amazing honor to be a part of my parents passing and my family members passing. I thought it was amazing. Yeah, maybe because I I want someone there with me. But I just it was I got kind of misty and kind of jealous watching this family kind of come together for this such an important part of life. As weird as it sounds. Yeah, it was very I mean, this is the time of year my dad died in February, so it's the time of year that he died. So, you know, my memories from OneDrive are all about, you know, his pictures at the end of his life as well. But it was just like to have that opportunity again and to have to say the things, right? To do the things, to make up for the things, or or yeah, I was it was interesting. It kind of threw me back into a position that I you wish you could have those moments back, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:40

That's a really good insight.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Yeah, it was it was just so fun to watch them because you could just tell, like I said, it's like you coming with with me, or am I going with you, or who's driving and what are we doing? And it's like the rituals, yeah, around the death, and and interesting to see how that kind of changes as the person dies, and you kind of hope that that they still have reasons to come together after the death. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Exactly. Yeah, and you were tospice for quite a while.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Yeah, for a little bit, yeah. So just very interesting. So I think how we tie this together with with what we've talked about before is at least in my mind, is what you learn from death, what you what you learn, what that does for you to you as a human. Um, I was talking with someone the other day that was thinking about becoming a nurse as an older person as well. Like I went to nursing school when I was 45. And these you cannot, you cannot underestimate the importance of life, of living. That sounds stupid. No, no, it doesn't. If you're if you're 20-something and once again, our kids haven't, if you're they're lucky they haven't been through some of this. They've been through maybe grandparents and things like that passing, but what being a part of someone's death or having someone die either suddenly or not suddenly, what that does to you as a human being, I mean, it gives you your human your humanity, right? You you you don't know who you are unless you're tested, and there isn't really much that tests you more than the death of a loved one.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Yeah, that's true. And and I have to add, it's how they die too. I mean, you and I met in EMS, and we've seen plenty of acute death. Um that's most, I mean, that's the majority of the deaths you see in EMS is is accidents or whatever. My mom, the first death I ever had in my family was my mom. She died in a car accident. So that was it was something I was really jealous of with um an old neighbor we used to have. Um, her mom died of cancer. She and her family lived across the street from us. So our kids kind of grew up together through like through high school, most of the time through high school, junior high. And um, I remember her mom going through hospice and the things that she used to tell me. She used to come over for coffee before we both went back to work because we were stay-at-home moms at the time, we had little kids. And I remember her telling me, yeah, I'm gonna get this recipe box, we're doing this for my mom, we're making videos, you know, et cetera. And then in the midst of that, like two, two and a half years of her mom dying, my mom died. And we were comparing, would you rather have it this way, or would you rather have it this way? Would you rather go through this horrible experience of watching your mother go through cancer? Or do you think it's easier to actually have it happen suddenly? And there's there's pros and cons to both. We um my husband and I both went through um his mom and his brother's death. Um, his mom luckily passed away of old age and she was ready for it. She wanted to go see dad. His dad passed away of cancer, and so did his brother. Um, and of the three of them, his brother went first. And we were there for his mom and his brother. We were out of state when his when his dad passed away. So it yeah, it it it really makes you feel small.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

It makes you feel small. I remember my husband sitting on the beach in Florida because we were visiting family down there when his his um dad passed away, and just letting him go sit on the shore for an hour, knowing what was gonna happen. But we had we had said our goodbyes before we left. And um his you know, his family, his mom and dad were real good with you know us not being there because there was a time where his dad, um I mean, you know very well the process of dying. Most of the the time that his dad spent here uh after we were gone was he was unresponsive, so he didn't know we were gone. And um, Olikurt's family was taking care of his mom and she knew that we were we were leaving. Um, why do I feel like I need to justify not being there, you know? It kind of makes you feel guilty, but um yeah, it does. But um, we knew what that felt like with his brother.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

Yeah. Well, and that's that's the thing that I think is is overwhelming with me. I have one one uncle left, an aunt and uncle left. And there was always some kind of comfort. You know, people complain about being the sandwich generation where you're dealing with your family, your parents, but you're also dealing with your kids. That was such a cozy little place for me. It was hard work and it was cozy, but I still had that level above me. It's just like when you're you're number two in charge, and then the boss leaves and you become the boss, there's nobody above you. And it's like I am holding on to Uncle Bill and Aunt Lynn like crazy because I'm not prepared to be the oldest generation.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

I'm not prepared because it's like that safety net, even though it's above me, that safety net, you know, who do I go to for advice? Who do I ultimately, you know, maybe it's you know, who am what what? And so when when Kurt's brother died, how was that different than a parent? Because is it was it, do you feel like it was a different because it's more lateral to him? Did he feel that in a different way?

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Or was it very yeah, you feel more of a personal threat when it's your generation, you know, like what am I doing wrong, or or what could I have done better, or what could I have done for my brother? Um, I mean, we expect it of our parents, yeah. But I also, I mean, I think all of our generation at our age in the 60s are thinking that too. Am I gonna be the top tier? When am I gonna end up being the top dog?

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

And all these kids underneath me are gonna be, you know, manna, papa, grandma, grandpa, you know, they're old when old whatsoever. Yeah, but yeah, it's it's such a change. So yeah, mentioning your aunt and uncle like that, yeah, that yeah, it's such a such a change.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

I'm and I'm in the way we see people. Yeah. And when when Kurt's brother, well, when my when we had all the deaths in our family, either my my side or his side, um you think about your siblings too. You know, and and I think we all feared to be judged by siblings or family members, especially when we had to do visitation, things like that. You know, some people were cremated, some people weren't, and we still had services and everything's different, and um, but I think my husband and I handle death a little differently than other people. I mean, we're sentimental when it comes to things, and he has siblings, and I have siblings that aren't as sentimental or sentimental in the same way. And so everybody worries about, you know, what what, or even friends and family, what are they gonna think? Am I not sad enough? Yeah, am I too happy? And you know, why am I crying too much? You know, like get over it, it happens every day, versus, oh, I feel so sorry for you. And then you and I both know there's that ultimate response, call me if you need anything, which is the last thing anybody should tell anybody when they have a death in their family.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Um, because it's useless. Don't do that. You just send the cookies, show up at the door, um, you know, be there for them and don't ask because they're all they'll always say no. We always said no. I don't think anybody in the world in the entirety of history has ever called somebody and said, Well, you told me to call if I needed anything, come over here and make me, you know, breakfast. Who's done that?

SPEAKER_00 10:25

You know, well, because it comes with such a what if you go over there and and once again you have the potential to be judged if you're not grieving appropriately. Or it's like, just come sit. I I might not talk to you, I might not say a word. I might sit here and cry my eyes out, but and it's another John Deloney thing. Grief demands a witness. You have to it can't, you have to get it out, and it demands that you have to do it.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

It's a process that has to happen, but it uh yeah, it's just that wood that you're chopping. That's your yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Well, and it's so funny because right now my husband's brother is probably not coming home from the hospital. He's gonna be put on hospice. I think he was put on hospice today, and this was uh you know, 10 years older than Jim. Um, they're very close. I mean, they're a farm family, you know, a farm family, so you're close whether you want to be or not, just because you have just this, you have these intertwined, you're not the average family. You're always coming together for chores morning and evening, and you're sitting at the big kitchen table for meals, and that's the way it is. Right. Yeah. But Jim was a farmer, so he's very circle of life. We all are here. We're an EMS, right? We see death a lot, so you have to come up with a way to deal with it. And I don't think it's a a coping mechanism in a negative way. I think that honestly is how I feel. I mean, I honestly, it's not me lying to myself, right? But he was his dad had dementia when he died, and Jim didn't want to see him after he got so bad. He's like, he doesn't know I'm here anyway, and I don't want to remember him like that. And I get that. So now tonight, after we're done recording here, we're gonna go see his brother. And it's kind of begrudgingly, I think he's going because he doesn't, he doesn't want to, because he doesn't want to remember me like that. But I think that today he was like, Man, I just can't get it together. I just can't, I'm I'm dropping stuff and I can't, and this, and it's like my anxiety, I can't get on top of it. And it's like, really? Okay, let's go for a drive and see your brother and let's let's have a conversation about this. But I think that it's it is different, I think, whatever generation it comes from. And when you think, you know, yeah, and that's another thing that I feel like when our when our younger children, they just don't have that life experience, they don't have the ability, and that's when they judge and when they do things, it seems so I understand uh older people, even older than us, saying, You have no idea, you have no idea what you're even talking about. Good for you for protecting yourself, good for you for doing whatever you feel it is right now because all of a sudden your piece is more important than anybody else's. Right. Deal with some life first, and then we'll have a conversation about it.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Yep, exactly. I I remember after my mom died, I think our two youngest were five and six. Um six and eight. I think they were six and eight. And I remember years ago when Eric was in high school, our youngest saying, Yeah, mom, I'm sorry, I don't remember grandma. Okay, yeah, I get it, because she lived on the other side of the state and you were six. I I understand that. Did it make me sad? Yeah, it did. Because he wouldn't have the same experiences or relationship or even remember anything that um grandma did for him or how she sounded or you know, anything like that. I I think he would recognize her in a picture, yeah, you know, but um as an adult, she didn't she didn't affect his life, yeah, you know, like like parents do or siblings do. And and for me, I think that's sad. Yeah, because I, you know, um grandma and grandpa aren't supposed to die until like you're in your 40s or 50s, you know, like my grandparents did. I remember my grandparents pretty vividly, but then again, my siblings remember very different things about my grandparents than I did because we had different situations, or they were older, so there was more that they remembered. It's just it's such a it's uh I know I overuse this word, it's so multifaceted.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

It's weird when so my mom did die of cancer, she died um, she was 60, so I've outlived my mother. You've outlived your mother, correct? Yeah, um, or the time that they spent. I can't even imagine being done at this age, so that's another whole little kick in the head, right? But my mom died about a month and a half before my first child was born. So my kids never knew her, and I didn't have a mother with a new baby, and it was it was what it was. But yeah, talking about mourning and I mean, I know she tried to hold on because all my friends, right after she died, were like, she tried so hard to hold on. It's like, well, she's got her journey too. Right. I mean, she makes her presence known with my oldest, especially Sheila. Yeah, he feels her around quite a bit, so that's kind of cool. But yeah, never knew her, never heard her voice, never knew anything about her, never, except for what we tell. You know, it and it's I guess if you look at it for this conversation as well, you really are just a blip in the radar. Like you said, death makes you feel so small, and you hope that people remember you, and you hope that the stories continue down the generations, but they always change, like the ham story, the ham story.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

Yeah, uh why do we do this? I don't know. I don't know. Grandma told me to do it, and then grandma and then my mom, you know. Um, yeah, it's it's different. It's it's sad and it's happy at the same time. And you know, if our son doesn't remember grandma that much, maybe doesn't remember how she died as well, which is okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

Yeah, I didn't even I didn't know that's how your mom died. Yeah, I've known you how many years and I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Really?

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Yeah, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Well, I'll tell you the the specifics of it later when we have breakfast when we have breakfast.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Yeah. So how old were you were you then when that happened?

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Oh, geez, I had to do the math. Um, in my 40s. So it was 1998. So uh yeah, 43, 44.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

Yeah.

unknown 16:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

And when you were comparing that with your neighbor who had the long-term time with the parent slowly dying, did you ever come up with a conclusion whether one was better than the other?

SPEAKER_01 16:56

Not really. I mean, um, I think sometimes she was jealous of me that she had to um, you know, withstand the set the sadness for so long. And I was jealous of her that she got to make plans with her mom and and decide, you know, what's gonna go where and you know, make videos and um, you know, but like I said, there's pros and cons to both.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Um, I think if I had to choose now, I would choose the long term.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Because the the acute death of someone being in a car accident is so hard on your family. It's it's so hard on your family. Um and and it affect all affected all five of us kids differently. Um but yeah, it's yeah, that's a whole nother episode here.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Yeah, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

Yeah, sibling thing. But you know, I for some reason remember because there were so many people at my mom's funeral, um, because she was the she was the fire chief's wife.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

Um, and aren't we all? Yeah, aren't we all? Um but yeah, this um I just remember just feeling like I was in a fishbowl because there were so many people there.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

And then some people, I I remember hearing someone a couple rows behind me asking a friend, like, who's that? Who's that? Thought, okay, there's so many people here that know my mom, but they don't know their kids.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

They don't know us five, you know, they all know who my dad was, of course, but they don't know any of us. Um, so you know, people talking about me doesn't really, it doesn't bother me. You can you talk about me all you want. It doesn't, there's, you know, it's it's no sweat off my back. But I was younger then.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

Yeah. You know how all that changes as you get older. But I think that's so interesting because I remember when dad died, there were people on stage, you know, anybody want to come say a few words? There were people that came on stage and told stories about my dad that my brothers had no idea. Yeah. Frankly, I had no idea either. And it was, it was so they were they were missionaries, they would go to somewhere South America and they would do dental, provide dental services. There was a group of dentists, and dad doesn't have anything, he was like the flashlight holder in the in the villages that had no power, and I mean amazing conditions. Um, but I guess there was an orphan child in the village, or it was some story where they needed um to nutrition for this child. It was a baby. And we, my mom and dad at that point in time, well, mom was hit was gone because he would go with his second wife, um, knew that goat's milk was a good replacement for breast milk. Yeah. So my dad went into this village, you know, white man with a headband. He always wore a headband when he was out and hot, uh, went in and found a goat, went in and procured a goat for this baby, showed them how to milk. Well, didn't show them, but got the milk and fed this baby. And my brothers were like, what? What are you talking about? I've never heard that story. It's just so interesting how I'm reading a book right now about how generations ago the older people stayed around and they were revered as the authority and the advice givers and the holders of the history in so many different cultures. But now, as things have have changed and things have there's more money, there's more everything, independence is the most important thing as you get older, it seems like, and how that's valued. So the lives separate. So not only do you have the separation, you you're raised and your kids are with you, your kids go off to college, but when they're adults, then the the parents separate again. And what is valued is the independence in retirement. Retirement used to be something completely different. Now it's about now it's about going off and doing your things, and that adds another barrier to these families or to everybody coming back together again. I thought that was really interesting. I didn't think of it that way. So that funerals, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

You know, grandma doesn't live with you anymore. She's in a nursing home because you know, grandma's gonna live with us until grandma and grandpa live with us until they die. Yeah, it was their home that you know, especially with farming, that everybody would be in the same farmhouse.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Yeah.

unknown 21:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

So now we have these kids coming back for funerals, you know, for and honoring the extent of the life that they knew this person. But if you live long enough, you have a completely separate life without your child as well. It's just very, and then we're supposed to all come together and be cohesive. It's just, I think sometimes I feel like it's an impossible yeah, two or three times a year. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

If you're lucky you know, for dinner, you know, once a month, something like that. Yeah, I never thought about it that way. It is changed a lot, and they expect us to all know exactly what everybody's. Thinking and they're doing, and oh, I didn't I tell you that. No, oh, I meant to text you, you know. Social media doesn't help. Sometimes you'll hear things on social media that you should have known you didn't know. Well engaged.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

Oh, really? Nice to know. Yeah. So I almost wonder, you know, it's it's a shame that it's a funeral that brings people back together because you can't really continue the relationship after that. You find out so much and see, especially seeing how other people valued the one that the person that just died, seeing the effect that they had and so many other lives other than just your own for that short period of time.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Right. And then they're gone, it still ends up being short.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

I wonder if they did a survey at funerals and to rate your the emotions you're feeling right now. What emotions are you feeling right now? I wonder how much would be guilt, or I wonder how much would be regret, or I wonder how much idea though. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Who would be willing to participate in that?

SPEAKER_00 23:01

I don't know. It's really interesting. Yeah. They're always so weird. I'm not looking forward to this funeral we obviously have coming up, but yeah. He wants to have a big chicken dinner though, so that'll be fun. Yeah. At the fire department, you know, he wants a big community meal, so that'll be fun. But yeah, that would be great. It's just these touchstones in your life where you you are faced, like you said, the threat, like you said when when Mitch died, the threat of your own mortality that you're you come face to face with it. It's every so often you get those. And I think if you're smart or if you're lucky, or if you're willing to look at it, you have the ability to internalize something to improve your quality of life, or something that makes you more introspective, or you solve problems, or you have discussions that you haven't had before simply because you see how close we all are, I guess at any moment.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

So right, right, yeah. And you and I've seen both of those, you know, quick and and long term. So yeah, it's a lot of self-reflection.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

As to what can I do better or worse with my own life? And it makes you feel small. And then you go to improve things, either with your relationships with your family, you know, it's not worth not talking to so-and-so or whatever. But does it last?

SPEAKER_02 24:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

No, then we still, you know, after months or a year, become internalized again. And then social media takes over, and then, oh, geez, there's an election this year, so there's going to be a political divide, of course. And it's it's work. I think the bottom line is if you want to keep your family and your relationship and all, you know, your kids, everybody still together in a traditional way that you and I were used to, it takes a lot of work.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

Takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of convincing. Yes, you have to come to this, you know, you need to go to this, to go to that.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Yeah, we all love, we know that when people are bought together brought together under obligation, they're just the most honest, and yeah, you have to convince people to come. It's like sitting in the corner, yeah. Overindulging in something, right? Who knows? Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

It's just themselves, yeah. While I'm here, that's all you wanted. Well, no, we miss you. We wanted you to, you know. But um, yeah, the intent of it all, which you we've talked about with many things, is what's the intent? Yeah, it's it's so much work and we get so lazy, and I do it all the time. Yeah. Um, and then you get to the point where it's like, well, I'll call them tomorrow. I'll text you tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

I'll yeah. And then you get today's like we're coming up on where there's you can't text them tomorrow, you know. You can't, they're not gonna be there.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

Yeah, but yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

I don't, I don't wish in some ways I I think you know, the time in our lives where we hadn't been through this, the time in our lives where everything, you know, we hadn't been faced with the true true lessons of life was a nice time, but I think I'm a better person having gone through it. Yeah. I think I've you know, uh Dr. Laura, when she used to be on there, used to always say, Hey, you can believe anything you want all day long until it's tested, then you really find out what you need, or really find out what you believe and really find out. And I think unfortunately, at our age we get tested more and we have those opportunities more often.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

But somebody quoted, and I I know it's a famous person, I can't remember who it was, but I saw a meme or a poster or something like um, why did it take me to be so old to be wise? Well, and then you know, if you have to go back to when you were 20, would you rather have the wisdom or the body?

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Oh, that's interesting, you know.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

Yeah, but yeah, as we get older and it everywhere you go, everything you do, every every every person you meet, every job you've had shapes the way you see everything.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

All of the above. And um it's definitely, I mean, that's definitely the case because if you if you don't have those experiences, bad or good, you can't really process those or deal with them when they happen again. And they're gonna happen again.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Just think about all that our grandparents saw in their lifetimes. You know, if you live to be 80, I mean the wars and all that kind of stuff. And once again, like we say, and they're trying to raise kids and trying to be the best parents they can and do everything else. So another another reason to honor us old people.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

There you go. We're not old yet.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

No, give me another day. Tomorrow. We'll be old. Tomorrow, it's like free beer tomorrow. Tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Tomorrow, free beer. Tomorrow I will be old. Well, thank you guys for joining us. We appreciate you listening. Um, subscribe, and um, we will see you in about a week.