Letting Go of Outcome with Christina Kirk

Judson's Mom is in town! Mother and Son talk parenting, art, and the supernatural on a very wholesome edition of Almost Funny!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

But it reminds me of a key moment for us, which I know you obviously remember, when I was going to drop out of high school, and then you wrote me a letter, um, which I still have. And I brought it today.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

All right, guys. This is Almost Funny with Judson Veach. It's our third episode. It still exists. I'm still making podcasts. Uh, today's guest, I um am pretty excited about. Uh, she has been a professor of theater for over 30 years. She is a playwright, director, and actor. And I have to text her what time I'll be home at night. It is my mom, Christina Kirk.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

Welcome. Well, it's great to be here with you, Judson.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Yeah, I had to pull some strings to get this guest. She was big timing me. But she made it. And you you just made it.

SPEAKER_03 0:51

I did just make it. It was harrowing.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Oregon Trail for two days.

SPEAKER_03 0:55

Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Making your way here.

SPEAKER_03 0:57

I'm so relieved to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

You had to do your two least favorite things in order to make it here, which was no directions and use technology.

SPEAKER_03 1:07

Exactly. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

New car, new technology. The phone wasn't charging. It was all the things that I hate for my mom to be having to do alone on a journey to my house.

SPEAKER_03 1:18

Well, you know, it does remind me of a story, actually.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:23

Because I remember when we lived in Columbus being on 270, and you had already moved out of the house, and I was completely lost and turned around because 270 is a circle, and you can get lost in a circle. So I called you up and I said, Judson, I'm on 270. And you said, Okay, can you tell me more? And then you were looking for landmarks and things. And you got me.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

The thing I remember about that story is, and I don't know if this was that particular time, but I was like, Ma, did you make it home? And you were like, the great thing about a circle is you always get home eventually. You went the whole way around the outer belt of Columbus.

unknown 1:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

You were like, I just, you know, I was listening to an audiobook, and you know, me and Brene Brown went around 270 together for an hour. And I got eventually I started seeing stuff I recognized, I made it home.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

And that's what it was.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

But you made it here. I mean, if you hadn't told me that there were issues, I'd have been like, oh, welcome. Hi. But you know.

SPEAKER_03 2:19

There were a few issues.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

There's Bluetooth involved.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

Oh, yes. Yes. You're not a booty. You know, I just got a car that was built in 2024, and the last car I had was from 2015. So there's been an adjustment.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Lots of changed.

SPEAKER_03 2:32

That's a lot of change.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Since 2015. Yeah. Your first car didn't know anything about COVID.

SPEAKER_03 2:36

No, no.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

It missed everything.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Um, Ma, this is what I'm trying to do is my opening question. And I may not do this as the opening question forever, but for right now, it's the best I got.

SPEAKER_04 2:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

But I think it's kind of fun. The last thing that was on your actual TV screen, not your phone, not your computer, the last thing you watched on a TV.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

Oh, this is horrible. I don't want to confess. Because it's it's kind of a guilty pleasure. And I'm not sure I even like it that much. But I needed to fall asleep, so I watched Bridgerton.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Oh, that's not bad.

unknown 3:09

Really?

SPEAKER_00 3:10

I'm trying to fall asleep.

SPEAKER_03 3:11

When I really want to fall asleep. Because I put if I put on a West Wing, I'll stay awake.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Well, West Wing came up on the last pod.

SPEAKER_03 3:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Uh what we were saying, like the difference in shows now. I don't know if Bridgerton, it's like you old shows, you have to watch. Yeah. But when you have to watch, it does make me stay awake. If it's especially if it's a show I don't know. The nice thing about now is like if you put on an old show, you know it, so you can fall asleep to it. Right.

SPEAKER_03 3:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

But a new show, they don't even this, there's not even that much going on. You don't even need to watch it. You can miss the whole second half of an episode. I do this, Sarah, because like I'm gone so many nights. I'll come home and she's in the middle of a series, and I'm like, I know what's happening. I know everything that's going on. I know everything about these characters. Like they just don't give you that much in the new stuff because they know you're on your phone. Is there a show that so you not are aren't just cast as like the world's biggest Bridgerton fan? Is there a show you're into right now that you do actually like?

SPEAKER_03 4:05

And now we finally are watching The Pit and we really like it. Oh, okay. Yeah. It's it's very good. It's very well written. Anything that John Wells is associated with is gonna be good.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

That ad always comes up when I turn on the TV and it's like a little bit more high action than my children are prepared for. No, no, no. It's intense. I don't know what this phenomenon is where you turn on the TV and it's like, hey, can we play the world's scariest advertisement while we're trying to get to you know Bluey real quick? Just the Amazon pops up and it'll be like medical drama, whatever, guy bleeding, guns firing. It's very graphic. The ads, just chill, right? Chill out. My kids are here. They're going, what is this with the horrible world that we live in? Your show is the world's scariest ad.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

Well, they should have to screen those for ads like they do for the movies.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

I don't think it's the same rules because it's like the what is it called? The FAA or the that's the people that fly. FCC. FCC. That's what it is. There, I don't think it's the same rules for Amazon Prime. It's like a private thing. It's not over like the broadcast waves. Yeah. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 5:09

Um they figure you're controlling what your kids are. I know.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

They're like, your kids should be watching TV anyway. You're already a bad dad when you press start. Um, which speaking of, I this is a question I wanted to ask. I think it's an interesting difference between grandma and mom. What have you noticed are like the key differences between grandma and being mom?

SPEAKER_03 5:35

Yeah, I just think I have permission to absolutely relish and enjoy it more. Um, it was always just okay, we've got to get you to this thing, and we've got to get you to that thing, and we've got to make sure you you don't get run over in the parking lot. And so there's not run over is such a big part of it. Like I I just remember the the stress of keeping you all alive and and making sure you got to all your things and we got to all of our things. And you know, when I when I come visit you, it's like, okay, it's a week devoted to the grandkids. Yeah. And it's just absolute pure fun, you know. And what I remember enjoying when you were kids was when we would do the mommy Judson Day. And then it was a day that was devoted to that.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

That that is like one of a top 10 memory of childhood memory that day. And it must have been around the year 2000, because that's when this movie came out. But we went to like Wyandotte Lakes. We were at like the pool special place all day. And back in the days we had like cash.

SPEAKER_02 6:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

You know, so we we like devoted a certain amount of dollars. So you had like whatever it was, and we're like counting out our dollars at the end of the day, and we were supposed to go to a play.

SPEAKER_03 6:48

Right. I'd arranged because there was this play for children, and I thought, okay, we have to drive to, you know, after we leave this place, we'll go see this play for children. And then I looked at the movie theater and I said, The movie theater is right here. Do you want to just stay here and watch a movie?

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Yeah. And and so the idea of going from a play for children to pivoting, we went and saw The Patriot.

SPEAKER_03 7:12

Which How old were you?

SPEAKER_00 7:13

I I would have had to been eight because that's how old I would have been in 2000.

SPEAKER_03 7:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

But I mean, still one of my all-time favorite movies. And I mean, me too. Looking back, you one of you too, one of all-time favorites?

SPEAKER_03 7:24

Oh, I I love that movie. I don't know if it's my one time all-time favorite.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

Love it. And, you know, watching it at all phases of life. Obviously, I've watching it at eight. I guess I was ready for it. I remember really loving it. But it's funny to think about the choices between play for children or like the most violent film.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

It's pretty graphic and violent. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

It's the realism of the virus.

SPEAKER_03 7:47

Yes. They showed real war in a real way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

It does feel like, I mean, I guess there are, you know, it's not like it's a Tarantino thing, but that almost is like cartoonish. It's like there's like this like over-the-topness.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

And that just felt like because there's people who are in these situations, the emotional stakes. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 8:09

And a father trying to protect his kids. Yes. I mean, it was wrenching. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

But I loved it. So I'm I'm really glad that we uh we did. So we would do these days where it was just, you know, the the two, uh, the mom and one kid, one so that you could give your full attention. I think that is probably the the difference because I do feel like I'm in the keeping them alive. A lot of it is just don't get, you know, into a problematic situation. Oh, is there a pool? Is there a car? Is there a yes? And so and and the other thing that you are becoming the the queen of is the FaceTime grandma hangout.

SPEAKER_02 8:47

I love it. I I absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

I don't even see this side of my daughter except when she is on FaceTime with you. It is the most theatrical person I've ever seen. Because she's got an audience. I love it. Anytime she has a creative thought, she's like, I gotta get grandma on the phone. I came up with a song. Where's grandma? I'm like, you you do know who to do this for. She will watch like your one-hour one-woman play that you've made.

SPEAKER_03 9:14

Time evaporates. I remember we were on FaceTime one morning, and all of a sudden it was like, they're eating lunch. I wonder what time it is. And we've been on for like three hours just playing.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

I have I like I call them grown-ups now. There's there's kids and there's grown-ups. You're a grown-up. I'm a grown-up.

SPEAKER_03 9:31

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

I have not met a grown-up who has this much play energy. You will play an imaginary game for three hours.

SPEAKER_03 9:42

I love it. Well, they're so creative and fun and funny. And yeah, it's it's endlessly entertaining.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

Mom, you are in the I'll we'll do this as a poll. Like, how many minutes can you just consecutively play an imagination game? I'll have fun. Sarah and I did this the other day. We did like a long uh uh drawn-out thing where we were being different characters. It was like an improv thing where we we played a bunch of different characters, and then the kids kind of like see where it goes, and there's like a king and a queen, and someone was poisoning someone's field and someone was lying about it. It's a lot of fun. But we did that for about 20 minutes. We were exhausted at the end. But I I do think when you're doing the baseline of like keep them alive, keep them alive. Yes, and then you're like, well, now we're gonna do a show. I'm like, it's gonna be a one act real quick, be a few big laughs, and we'll get out of here. You're doing like Scorsese film.

SPEAKER_03 10:35

Well, I remember there was one play date that we had where I was visiting and it was a long time, and you guys were out doing things, and we did this series where it was like a TV series, and we were the hosts, and there was adventures on every show. And so, you know, and then it would be like, okay, this episode's done, time for next week's episode, and we would just go from episode to episode. And we had a kind of formula that we developed, and there was always an adventure, and there was a song at the end, and you know, and so we did that for hours.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

Oh man, I love it when you come to town. Let me tell you. Um, the uh the grandma versus mom is making me think, so there are, I think, key moments, like parenting moments, and you don't necessarily know that they're the key moments until it's like, oh, that was a key moment. And so I always wonder like, was that just a key moment? You know, where we stop. Like I had one the other day where with my daughter, where she's in her room and her room's a mess. And we she had established though, she was like, I'm gonna clean this. I'll do it, I'll do all of it. Even if her little brother doesn't want to do it, because we were, you know, there was some negotiation going on, and usually one of the kids will go, This is the classic, this is so-and-so's mess. It's never their mess. No matter how big the mess is, they're like, I've never seen this before. I don't even know. This is obviously so she had she saw that coming and she was like, I'll do all of it. Even if he made it, I'll clean it all. So now the time has come to clean. And she goes in there, she she comes back, she goes, Dad, I can't, I can't do this. I was like, just get started. And she goes in, and then I hear like the soft cry from the other room where she's like, she knows she's bit off more than she can chew, type of situation. And so now I it's one of the parenting conundrums where I'm like, I I've established that we know what the rules of engagement are. You told me clearly you're smart enough to know where this can go, where you know the overwhelming moment is coming. So you're like, I'll do all of it. He made some of this, but I'm still gonna do all of it so I can keep playing this game. Okay, now it's time to pay the piper. And she she can't handle it. But I'm like, when is it developmentally appropriate to like push her to just you gotta suck it up and do it? Right? Because she's kind of like melting down, but also a private meltdown. She's not doing it to get attention, she's just obviously having a moment like to herself. And I go in there and I was like, hey, you can do this. She's like, I can't do this. And I go, if you were gonna tell me how to clean this up, what would be the next step you would tell me to clean this up? And she was like, I don't even know much. I was like, What but where would I start if I was cleaning it? She's like, You would probably need to move that that shelf over. It's it's all nightdoor. I was like, okay. So you know the next step. Just do the next step. And we slow and I was just stood there, and she cleaned up the next step. And then I'm telling you, within 90 seconds of me just giving her a couple of these from the outside, and she by the end, my son comes in, you know, your grandson. Um, I don't know why I'm keeping their names a secret, but comes in and he starts to help. She goes, get out of here. I want to do this all. I'm I'm gonna have this huge feeling of accomplishment. She gets it all clean, she all shined up, ready to go. Dad, come in, look. But I was like, is that a key moment? Could that be a key moment? I I felt good about it. Um but it reminds me of a key moment for us, which I know you obviously remember, when I was going to drop out of high school, and then you wrote me a letter, um, which I still have. And I brought it today.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

And this is like if you if your mom is a playwright, she gives you letters that look like this. All nice. And what I do is from time to time I just go back and I read it. Because you get different things out of it. But that to me was like there's it's tricky. It's the same thing as Lincoln, where it's like, I know what you gotta do, I can see what's happening from the sidelines. How much do I contribute and how much do I not contribute? And what I love about this, because I read it again recently, you there's a page and a half where you are restating pretty better than I made the case for the reasons why I should drop out of high school. You go through for fifty, you make 15 points on behalf of me dropping out of high school to start your letter. I mean, that is that is time, folks. July 9th, 2008. That is uh almost what are we 18 years? 18 years ago. And then the other thing that I was I'm struck by every time is it's not outcome-oriented. And that's what I come back to now when I read it, where your thesis isn't do this or don't do this. Your thesis is be smart about your process for your decision. And man, you got me. I mean, you you got me because I think you were reading the room of 16, and I think you believed in me being bright enough, and you're like, you gotta read it. You're like, if he actually reads it, you thought he's gonna be bright enough to read this and examine his process of thinking, and he'll have the critical thinking tools to make a decision that makes sense. But then you left it. And I I would say it worked out. I I have uh I have a high school diploma and and uh I have another degree. What is it? A BA, BS, I have something. It is BS. Whatever, I don't use it. Um but you remember that.

SPEAKER_03 16:38

I do, but so much of that letter is is things I learned from you. Um because I remember in earlier conversations, we had a really dicey phone conversation before I wrote that letter, where you really called me out. I said something about you being a minor and you laid into me and said, Hey, I have a mind and don't dismiss me as a minor. And that really resonated with me. And I thought, yes, he does. He's been critically thinking since he was two, and um has all of the cap capacity to make his own decisions, and I was wrong. And and so what informed that letter was things that you had said to me and things I knew about you and what you were capable of. And and yes, I had to let go of the outcome and give you permission to be in the driver's seat and make your own choices.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, did you feel like in that moment you were like, this is a seminal parenting moment? Or are you just kind of swept up in like, okay, this is a situation, it's kind of crazy, everyone seems a little bit upset. How do I handle this? Or or did you have perspective in the moment to be like, this is kind of a big deal, let me it was a huge deal. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 18:03

I reached out, and what's interesting is very recently I I have these binders of like you, I save things, and so letters that were written and any correspondence that's important from the family, I I keep. And I was putting something in, you know, somebody sent me a note, and so I was putting it in, and I just opened up, and I happened to open up not to that letter, but to a dialogue I'd had with my father asking for advice about the letter because I had sent it to him ahead of me. That's so crazy. And I wanted his advice, and what he had said to me was don't change a thing, this letter is great, but make sure that the way you give it to him is important so he knows it's an important moment because it should be something that he puts on a shelf and comes back to later.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Wow, look at that.

SPEAKER_03 18:53

And um, I I tried to do less with it. I mean, I I I said I said to myself, oh, that's embarrassing. I don't want to make it too big a deal.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

You know, so I I felt like So that was grandpa's contribution was to to almost make it even more of a moment of significance. Yes, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:13

Yes, and I was embarrassed about that because I thought, oh, I'm already writing this letter. It's already this formal letter, I don't want to overdo this. Um, but he said, make it important because it is important, and it's something that he shouldn't just throw away.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Yeah, and a little bit of context if you're unfamiliar with our family dynamics. So if you're not like my cousin listening, um the situation was I was getting to the the later years of high school where I was super focused on just doing ballet as my career, and there was a lot of just external pressure about how do I spend enough time doing that. I was really unhappy with the high school I was going to and the academic environment there and feeling like it was a waste of time and it was keeping me from being able to do the things I wanted to do. I didn't want to finish high school at Westerville South. I wanted to go to New York, which I ended up doing, but I was in this kind of uh jammed up position of like, I just need to be done with this so I can focus on something else. I'll get a GED, it won't matter. I'm not gonna get any higher degrees. I don't care about anything but this, I'll do that and I'll be done. Um, and the reason I think the letter, it wasn't just you going to my door and slipping it underneath. I was away. I was gone for seven weeks at a summer program in Chautauqua, New York. And so we were having this correspondence, not even in the same place. So there was this also added like this is kind of like herky jerk weird. Like you guys came into town to visit, and I remember we were at dinner and having pizza, and it was like not fun because we were trying to figure this out, and there was a lot of just hurt feelings. And so then the letter, you know, coming through, and I remember being there, and you wrote on the the cover of it, or however you said it, you said read it twice. And you told me later, like I told you to read it twice because I knew then at least you'd read it once. Yes. And and I did, I read through the whole thing, and I kind of knew that, so I'd read it once. I thought that's pretty good. It's a lot, it's not like it's a short, there's it's pages. This is she writes plays for a living. I mean there was characters, there is there's you know, set directions and things like that. Wheel in bed from stage left. That would be fun. Um but I did want to like look at this because I thought that was interesting. It's interesting you bring up grandpa, because there was one section where you are quoting him, and I just thought it was interesting. And people don't care about this. You you can skip if you hate everything that we're doing right now. But uh writing, quoting uh an essay from grandpa.

SPEAKER_03 21:46

Yeah, he wrote a series of essays and put them in a book form, The Gift of Fire.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Okay. And you quoted something here, and I just think it's really interesting. You said train it, he says, training without education can be pretty. Devastating. Training can be comforting for a while. It can give you a sense of security. But when trouble comes, when you ask one day, what does it all mean? Why am I here? That's when we need the means to seek another answer. And the the essence of that to me in that moment means something very different than it means to me in this moment. And reading through this, you're you're talking about the means to an answer a lot. The the way you're getting from point A to point B doesn't really matter point A and point B as much because that's what you're gonna really have to rely on every day of your life is the means to an answer. It's not just going to something going, all right, we do this and we do this and we check this box, and it's some external perfect set of rules that you can follow. And you do high school like this, and then you go to the next step like that. You were saying, like, life is messy and confusing and complex, and I hear all the reasons that you're saying the things you're saying. And all I want to focus on is making sure you have the means to do point A to point B. Um, and it's it's hitting me differently now because I am so focused on a new thing in the same way. It's the same guy, but just grown up. And he's going, I I gotta, I gotta do comedy and I gotta be successful at this. Because if I'm not successful enough, then I won't be able to do it because I won't be able to support my family and all these things, all this pressure, all these you know false finish lines you put out that I'm putting out, and going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, read this. Slow down. The things that you think are important, you're looking at so many. I'm looking at so many uh goals. I'm looking at so many point B's I'm wanting to get to. Like the ends is what's important, like the outcome is what is important. And then what this is reminding me to do is slow down and think about the means of going to point A to point B. Don't just make a podcast and have your mom come on it. Think about what you're doing, son. No, but uh does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03 24:14

Oh, it does. And it's I mean, what could be more gratifying for me than to know that something, one of those seminal moments is still resonating. And I am convinced you're gonna have a series of those with your children. And it's it's it's already happening. I see it happening, and I see it in them, and even the way that they're creatively playing. I mean, you you and Sarah have just created this beautiful environment where they are free to play and grow and be. And you know, and and so I'm learning so much watching you as a parent and thinking, oh, I wish I'd known and I wish I'd, you know, there are things I would do differently now because I I see the environment that you're creating for the kids.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

That's that is interesting to me. And I I'm sure I'll feel the same way because I think you and I are both big self-examiners. So you're kind of like, how can I improve or optimize or be open to a more holistic way of doing life? And so I I understand the impulse to feel that way. I keep coming back to how grateful I am that I had certain things already downloaded when I started parenting. I'm noticing because you obviously notice, oh, this is a parenting impulse that I want to get rid of. Like we all know that. I make a hundred videos about that, right? And it's fun and it's funny. But there are certain other things that I think are more, you know, that are harder to talk about in a video in your car, where like having a secure sense of self that isn't an accident. A lot of people are walking around with all sorts of things, and I just feel grateful where I'm like, oh, there are prerequisites to parenting that I'm really grateful I have. And that's that's what gets downloaded in like what we've built in our relationship. A relationship that when you're 16 and your mom writes you a letter that you respect it and go, she's making some pretty good points. No 16-year-old's reading his mom's letter. Like, I mean, the writing's good. I can't argue with it. Oh, who'd you quote? My grandpa? I mean, in that case, you you had me at my grandpa. So building that that mutual respect relationship, I focus on that so much. I I am talking too much, but I want to say this one other thing, which is I saw a video, and I'm not even gonna give this person the time of day to show the video. But it was a guy, and he was talking about it's kind of a an old school parenting philosophy where it was just such a heavy regulation of his teenage daughter. And he was talking about the things I will let her do and things I won't let her do. And of course, it grabs me because I've got a daughter who is, you know, not a teenager yet, but you you blink, it's like she's halfway there. And I was getting so worked up because what he was saying is he was like, I will keep her safe by regulating she can't kiss a boy, she can't go on a she can't do this, she can't be in this situation or that situation. And uh what I kept coming back to is like the way our relationship was, where you go, look, if you respect our relationship, you will model respectful relationships in your life. And so, not to say that it's perfect, and not to say that like obviously there has troubles come up, and your kids go, I'm gonna drop out of high school and do this wacky plan, and like there's gonna be fights at the Andreacios over breadsticks. Like that is how it goes. People get mad, and but to to return to you never were like, I'm gonna tell you this is the way it has to be, I'm gonna keep you safe by doing this, to be like we're gonna have a mutual respect. Because what I would love is to model for the father-daughter relationship. Hey, the most important guy in her life right now treats treats her with respect. Yes, and that will be her expectation for because there I will not be the most important guy in her life forever. As as hard as that is to imagine, right? So this is my window. This is my window to to download. This is respect. This is a respectful relationship, these are your expectations. Because if all she knows is that some guy goes, you do this, you do this, maybe the wrong guy walks up and starts telling her things that I don't want her to do.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

Yeah. Absolutely. All right, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Clip it. We decided that was true. My mom says seal of approval. Her son was correct. You guys heard it. My mom agrees with me. I just brought you on to co-sign all of my takes. Okay, great. And also, my wife should clean more. No. No, I know. I know, I know that's where I draw the line. I know. You're you're gonna go to bat for Sarah every time.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

Every time. Oh man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

Oh, the other thing I did want to, because we talked about this the other day. I think this kind of links in with this, which is observing your parent as a kid and the story. Will you tell the story of when you went to the workshop? The workshop. Where you left for a month?

SPEAKER_03 29:32

Oh, yes. Um, so yeah, one of the hardest decisions of my life was when you kids were two and four. I had the opportunity to go to not just a workshop, but a month-long workshop. A month.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Two and four.

SPEAKER_03 29:49

Two and four. And I dad's worst nightmare. It was. And it was one of the few real conflicts we ever had because he was like, why would you do that? He really was. And usually he, I mean, he is, you know, such an involved. I mean, he always supported me with every career choice, everything I wanted to do. He was so supportive. But with this, he was like, okay, you can do it. But I disagree. And so um, added burden of my my husband, my my life partner, who always supports me on everything, doesn't think I should do this. And my kids are only two and four. And we did invite my mom in for a portion of the time that I was gonna be away. Shout out, grandma. Yeah, yeah. So we got the support, but I remember the first day I arrived, one of the things they asked us to do was to walk around the space and remember the moment that we decided we were gonna come. And I just started sobbing because I was so destroyed by the fact that I made this decision because I really felt I needed this month. And it was an acting workshop where you do this intensive work, and it was mind-blowing and changed my life and was so incredible. But at the time, I thought, this is not good for my kids. I'm making a choice that's good for me and isn't good for my children and isn't good for my husband. Um, and then there was a moment, I think I was about a week or two in, and every night I would call you kids and talk to all three of you, both kids.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

You left us items that smelled like you?

SPEAKER_03 31:29

Yes, I did. Um, and left you videos of me talking to you. We would play the mom video. Yes. Um, but I called and I, you know, was talking to you, and you, four-year-old Judson, says to me, Mom, what did you do today? And that moment was so incredible for me because I had this realization that you were curious about what your mother was doing and thought it was pretty cool. And I told you some of the cool things because we did fights and stuff like that. So you thought that was so cool because I I had to learn fight choreography. And and I realized, oh, there are things that are gonna be hard, mostly for my husband at this point. The kids won't remember at two and four that I was gone for a month. But they might, Judson might remember that his mom is not just a mom, but she's a person.

SPEAKER_00 32:23

Right.

SPEAKER_03 32:24

And that she does stuff. And that was a real opening, an awareness for me that that changed my idea of what good parenting is.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

Yeah, yeah. I I again it's one of those stories that changes because I we would heard heard you tell that, you know, when I was 18, and I'd be like, Yeah, mom, you left. Like it was fine, no big deal. But then you have kids. And a month is a long time. A month is a long time to be gone, you know, and I think especially for a mom. I mean, I don't want to like disparage dads, but like as a dad, I don't like being gone at all. But it's tough, it's a tough moment. And I r reflect on it now because two things can be true. It can be not the best thing for your kids, not the best thing for your spouse, and still be worth doing, and still have value and benefit for your kids, and maybe your spouse, who knows? But that was an example of that, and now I in many ways act that out as a dad who you know goes, guys, I'm going to comedy, or guys, I'll be back at the end of the weekend, or guys, I'll see you later. I do a lot of see you soons, and I try to borrow from that story where the the thing that matters, I'm hoping, is my relationship when I'm there being really strong. And if it hurts when you're leaving, that's maybe a good thing because there is a bond that is being missed. And then be vibrantly and vividly present when I'm there, and then try to be vibrantly and vividly present in the other things I'm doing as a person.

SPEAKER_02 34:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

I'm a dad and I'm a person. You're a mom and you're a person.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Um, and so that is, you know, I guess just part of growing up. Even when you are grown up, you keep growing up, but things do change. The stories in your life change, and the way you look at them change, and you go back and you read letters and it changes. But mom, I know this is covered a lot because everybody when they're talking about their mom, they're always like, Oh, my mom's always writing plays. So I don't want to cover stuff that like I feel like we cover in culture too much, probably. But I think it is kind of cool. What is it to even in 2026 to write a play for the stage? This is not like I'm writing this and it's a play, but like mostly it's for content. We're doing like uh the making of the play, and we're doing a lot of vertical video. You write like a legit play.

SPEAKER_03 35:16

Yeah. So I haven't gotten with the times, have I?

SPEAKER_00 35:21

I'm only 500 years behind.

SPEAKER_03 35:23

And on top of that, I write plays often about people from the past. So I'm really, really backward.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

I love the Abraham Lincoln play. So the um House Divided, and it was produced, and the show was great. I I don't know if there we have a lot of Lincoln heads in the audience, but give the give the outline of that, because that as a circumstance, I feel like I like history, and I really like Abraham Lincoln history. The circumstance of that play is so cool.

SPEAKER_03 35:59

Well, it's not something that many people know about because there was a week in December of 1863 when uh Abraham Lincoln's um sister-in-law came to visit, and she happened to be a Confederate because much of Mary Lincoln's family were Confederates.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

Classic sister-in-law stuff.

SPEAKER_03 36:22

Exactly. And so what you have is a week where, right in the middle of the Civil War, where you have the far part of the family that doesn't get along or doesn't see eye to eye. And so it felt very timely to be writing about that particular moment in history. And it's always just sort of a footnote, like, oh yeah, there was this week when Emily came to the White House, and um, I think some sparks flew, but nobody really talks about what happened. So I thought, why not invent uh a play about that?

SPEAKER_00 36:51

The family drama involved a Confederate coming to the White House, people are fighting the Civil War. It's Abraham Lincoln's sister-in-law, and his wife, Abraham Lincoln's wife, wasn't like, oh, we're not that close. It was like, no, this is like my best friend's sister. This is like a hugely important person in my life. Honestly, there's like so much relatable to that, just as like family dynamics play.

SPEAKER_03 37:20

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

But then you you put on top of it, it's like, you know, you think you have a lot going on. Imagine if you're also trying to win the Civil War. You know, so I got relatives coming in town, everybody's gonna be fighting. Uh also, you know, yeah, you got troops to move. It's this is uh Right.

SPEAKER_03 37:39

Yeah. And and it really was a a great opportunity for a um a spark flying play. Uh and and I think it it has some timeliness just in that how many times have you gone, oh gosh, do I really want to go to that Thanksgiving dinner? Because Super relevant. My family and I don't necessarily see eye to eye.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

Super I I don't know if people have been following along. I feel like we do have some division in in the country at the moment. So a little bit. It's relevant from that angle. But also, like I when I when I was watching it, it's so interesting because you have the the icon of what Abraham Lincoln is. How humanizing family stuff humanizes people in a way other stuff, when you when you watch a movie or a play or a TV show and they focus on the historical events side. You're watching the historical drama. It sometimes lionizes people when you see them in action, even when they're failing, you go, oh gosh, you know, they're like, they're rolling up their sleeves and they're getting in the dirt and they're trying to figure out this thing. And then you it just takes like 14 seconds of watching a scene of a guy fighting with his wife, and you're like, oh geez, he's just like the rest of us.

SPEAKER_04 38:54

You know, yes.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

It's like Abraham Lincoln was just a guy doing his best and had to rise to the occasion of saving our entire country.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

With with like probably much higher level family issues than the baseline, even for that time.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Yeah, definitely. And that was part of my goal was, you know, because I revere Lincoln. He's, you know, arguably my favorite president. Um, but I also didn't want to just canonize him, as you say, and wanted to make it that all the characters were real and uh multidimensional, and nobody's a good guy, nobody's a bad guy, everybody's a guy, you know, everybody's a human, a human being on the planet, which means you're flawed, you're confused, you're messed up. And so is Lincoln. And so that internal drama, but knowing that he's carrying the weight of the Civil War on his shoulders at the same time that he's dealing with the family dynamics and the family drama, and both are coexisting for this human, uh, was really fun to explore.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

What was it like to write in Abraham Lincoln's voice?

SPEAKER_03 40:07

Well, the nice thing was I do a lot of research. So I had read umpteen books, so all of a sudden you sort of get into that language, and I had so many quotes from him. And he was a funny guy. He was a storyteller. And so I have some direct quotes from Lincoln. So then what I just tried to do is extrapolate and say, well, this is kind of how he talks. Yeah. And now I'm just gonna make some of my own Lincoln jokes.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

I punched up a couple of your You did. Thank you very much. Um there's laugh out loud. I I remember going to the the show and being like, all right, get some real pops here. Like that's good. The play is funny. Um and then you also are now doing, still in the historical vein. I mean, this is uh I don't know, are we allowed to talk about what you're working on now? Okay. Absolutely. So you're doing an Eleanor Roosevelt.

SPEAKER_03 41:00

Yes. All right. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

What's the what's the lowdown on that? How is it similar? How is it different to what the Lincoln can do?

SPEAKER_03 41:05

Well, and it's not that I everything I write is about old presidents. Um I have written other plays. But um uh this one I really wanted to focus on her and not the president, but Eleanor, because she was such a seminal person in her time, and unlike any other first lady that ever before or since, I don't think we've ever had a as influential a first lady as Eleanor Rose.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

How could that be?

SPEAKER_03 41:34

That's a great question. Maybe we should write a play about it. I used a whole play, it would take me two acts. No, no. Uh and so I really wanted it to be looking at it always. I want to look at the past through the lens of now. Like we have had so much feminism since then. And I'm asking myself, at the time that she was alive, there was somebody that came to her who was a dear friend and was really the maker of Franklin Roosevelt in terms of putting him on the political map. But he said to her, I could make you president. I could do it. You've got all the chops to do it. She had no interest in that. That's not what she wanted to do. But at that time, he honestly believed she could be president. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 42:15

That Eleanor Roosevelt could have been president of the United States in that time in history. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 42:20

Right. And he was saying this in 1934. This was early in Franklin's uh presidency when he said, you know, when when Franklin's done, let's get you.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Wow. Let's get you to be president. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Women really breaking in that right to vote. They're like, we finally can vote, let's get one in right away. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 42:34

Right away. And so what I'm interested in is we still can't get a woman elected as president. That's true. And and I would argue that some of why women haven't been elected is because they are women. And so interesting to look at history and say, here was somebody that was being so influential in her time and had so much capacity. And how have we evolved since then? And what are the ways in which she was a feminist in her time, and what does it be mean to be a feminist in our time? And so I really focus on her mother-in-law, Eleanor, and her daughter. And because then you've got three generations of women. There are other characters in the play. But both all three of those women represent something very different. Her mother was a product of the Gilded Age. And really, Eleanor was raised in the Gilded Age. And so that's one thing. And so how did she carve out a way for herself? And she was a very strong domineering woman, but you look at her in her context of her time, you think, well, how else should sh could she have any power? Yeah. She had to be strong and domineering.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

I as it connects to I don't know if this is like a feminist issue or whatever it is, but I do think it's interesting when I'm uh seeing you work on these plays and even um Looking at kind of my experience watching you as my mom going to work, working, working mom of the 90s and early 2000s, versus I mean, seeing my wife in the workplace or seeing other people that I engage with in the workplace, the difference of like women going to work, the difference of like my mom works is so different now it feels like to me from then. I don't know if it feels to you different, but it feels like a different time in how that f feels for life.

SPEAKER_03 44:32

Yeah, I I think that the biggest difference for me is I think women now have more of an awareness of the challenges than I did. I'm not saying, I mean, I, you know, I I I stood on the shoulders of women in the 70s who were the ones that burned their bras and did all the things that made things possible for me. So, you know, in that regard, I'm I'm, you know, the recipient of a lot of the work that women before me did. And so it's interesting when I talk to my my women friends who are in their 80s, uh I really have a huge amount of respect for them because they were the ones that were really, you know, going through the barriers. Right. I almost feel like my I'm I'm this strange thing. I'm I'm about the same age as Barack Obama. And and so on the edge of the boom, right? A lot of the same credits, too. There you go, right? Uh yeah. We have so much in common. Great at basketball, former president, right? All the stuff. All the stuff. Um but it's an interesting thing because I I think there was kind of a lull where and we talk now about internalized oppression, where you don't even know that you're being oppressed, but you are. I mean, I was in a a workplace that was dominated by men with a lot of good old boys, and I didn't question it. That was just the reality. So I didn't go, gosh, I'm really being dominated by men. I was just like, I gotta find my place, I gotta find my way, I gotta move through this.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

Um, so is there any devil's advocate thing to was if could someone say, well, didn't that make you like a tougher person on the other side, or like that shaped your character in some way, to really have to fight and carve out your place? Then you ended up being the head of the department at the end of all that. And is there is there a devil's advocate argument that's worth making?

SPEAKER_03 46:23

I suppose there is a devil's advocate argument, but I'm not really that interested in it.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

Me neither. I was gonna pitch it to you.

SPEAKER_03 46:32

No, no. I mean, the way I look at those kinds of things, like, oh, our trauma makes us stronger, there's gonna be plenty of trauma. So let's not seek out trauma as a reason for uh and say that that's a good thing. Um I think you know, anything we can do to lessen that and make it more of a level playing field and the better.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

Aaron Powell You can have personal growth in situations that aren't just problematic.

SPEAKER_03 46:58

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 46:59

You can you can have a lot of growth when you are being supported as well.

SPEAKER_03 47:02

Aaron Powell Absolutely. I think you can have so much more growth when you're being supported. I'm gonna second it.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

All right. Another uh take, uh a valid take from mom and son. We're all on the same page on this show.

SPEAKER_03 47:13

I know we need more conflict, Jetson.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

I know.

SPEAKER_03 47:15

What do we what do we like don't agree on? Yes, I know. We need to have an argument.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

Exactly. We'll let them do that in the comments. You said the word feminist a lot. So I think if if this hits the right algorithm, there's gonna be plenty of angry comments. We'll let them do the five. All right then afterwards.

SPEAKER_02 47:31

Very good.

SPEAKER_00 47:32

Um in in kind of the arts vein, uh, this is this is a bonus round question that I'm moving up to the main because I just think there's gonna be a lot of meat on the bone. Um a movie that changed your life.

SPEAKER_03 47:47

You know, I want to reject the premise. Oh, you're not sure if you're doing the same thing. Yeah, yeah, because when I think about the art that changed my life, oh my gosh. Now I'm thinking of something else. The th the art that has changed my life, probably the thing that changed my life the most, I thought it was something else, but it's uh seeing Michelangelo's David when I was when I was 10 years old. And I had seen all these replicas because we were traveling through Europe um and um there's all these replicas of the David, you know. And I said to my parents, Well, it's everywhere. Why are we going to this special place to see it? Oh, that's those are just replicas. Uh-huh. And then we went in there and I remember my dad was pulling on my arm, and he said, It's time to go. And I said, We just got here. And he said, We've been here an hour.

unknown 48:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 48:41

And I was in the presence of a masterpiece. And and that was life-changing because it made me realize, oh, there is a difference in terms of what makes something art. And another moment that was at that same time was we went to Paris and we were at the Louvre, and we went to the famous Mona Lisa. There happened to be an art student who was sketching it at the same time. And so I got to see a pretty good art student, but the difference between the actual Mona Lisa and this artist trying to attention was was really quite stunning. And this was as a 10-year-old.

SPEAKER_00 49:23

You're getting like another layer of perspective on the art. It's like another frame of the art. That's so interesting. I that's the most my mom answer ever. I was like, What's a movie you like? She's like, I went to the Louvre.

SPEAKER_03 49:35

Well, and then the other one was in college when I read Enemy of the People, which is a Henrik Ibsen play. I mean, that was written in the 1800s.

SPEAKER_00 49:44

But this is relevant. This is good. I don't know. Um there's been a lot of clamor online. They're like, you never do Ibsen stuff. Where's the plays from the 1800s, Judson? Let's clip that. This is a great clip.

SPEAKER_03 49:57

It gets remade. Lots of contemporary playwrights have tried to rewrite that. It's called Enemy of the People. Enemy of the People. And so it's been rewritten many times. And I think the reason it never goes out of style is because it's about corruption. And it's about, you know, a town that has a water source that's been corrupted. And this man finds out that the water source has been corrupted, but the the town is making money hand over fist, and the town is much happier because they're making money from this water source. And he's like, no, no, it's corrupted, it's gonna hurt people. Right. And he is getting ready to make this big speech about it to save the day, because he's gonna be the hero of the day. And I mean when I read the book, all of a sudden he says, Oh, I'm not gonna make the speech because it's not gonna make a difference.

unknown 50:47

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 50:48

And I was devastated. And I thought, wait, you're our hero. You have to make the speech. What is this play about? What does it mean? And it caught me questioning and asking myself, oh, he's making a much bigger statement by saying that no, you don't get a hero that comes and makes a good speech and then everybody changes and and the world is a better place. Yeah. And so it was really a life-changing experience.

SPEAKER_00 51:13

Aaron Powell That does change your life when the playwright doesn't let you off the hook by giving you the happy ending. He's basically saying, I'm a mirror to what is.

SPEAKER_03 51:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 51:23

And so now you have to live with what is. That's that's an interesting piece of art.

SPEAKER_03 51:27

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_00 51:28

And that sticks with you.

SPEAKER_03 51:29

Oh, it stays with me.

SPEAKER_00 51:30

How old were you when you read it the first time?

SPEAKER_03 51:32

Uh probably twenty.

SPEAKER_00 51:34

Okay. And have you returned to it? Oh, yes. And do you get different things?

SPEAKER_03 51:39

Yes, I do. I do. But I I still hearken back to that first read because it was it was that awakening to you can't save the day. You know, um, the world has corruption. Yeah. You know. And that doesn't mean we don't fight against it. I'm I'm you know, it's not like, okay, I give up. Yeah. But I thought, oh, this artist is fighting it against it by again holding a mirror up to nature.

SPEAKER_00 52:08

Accurately examining the essence of the problem.

SPEAKER_03 52:11

Right. Yeah. And not not letting us off the hook by saving the day.

SPEAKER_00 52:15

Yeah. I mean, when you watch a superhero movie, it's escapism. You're going, oh, some outside force comes in and there's good and there's evil, and it's not complex, and the good guy wins, and it's it feels good. And I mean, there could not be anything less superhero movie than a play from the 1800s that doesn't have a happy ending.

SPEAKER_03 52:36

Although I do have a life-changing moment from a superhero movie. Oh. My favorite moment in any superhero movie, and I know I won't know which one it was, but you probably will. It was one of the Spider-Man movies. Okay. And it's the one where he's on a bus. Toby McGuire? Probably. He's on a bus or a plane or something. No, he's on a bus or a train. Okay. And he gets revealed. Like people know who he is. I guess. Everybody on the train knows who he is, but they all agree not to say.

SPEAKER_01 53:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:05

And that just absolutely destroyed me because I thought, oh, there are moments of community. So it's exact opposite of the enemy of the people. It's it's the moment when a community can come together.

SPEAKER_00 53:20

Aaron Powell, how much is it um depressing to watch the degradation of what media, content, art, what people watch is as someone who ha reveres the old school?

SPEAKER_03 53:33

Well, you know, it's interesting. I happen to be teaching in a school that houses the Center for Emerging Media Arts. And I I've just gone through two searches for a storytelling person and for a film person. And I have great respect for emerging media. Okay. In fact, we've been talking about verticals and that you can have good verticals and bad verticals. Like just because you put something in a shorter form, that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be superficial or without value. And so I think it's a lot harder to do that, to say, I'm going to give you a small bite and I'm going to make this somehow significant. Um and so I think there's huge value in emerging media. And so I'm I'm excited about even AI. I mean, AI has a horrible component to it, but it also is a great tool, if used in the right ways, um, that can expand um, you know, the art making experience.

SPEAKER_00 54:35

Yeah. And if you get a yellow stain on your counter, you can ask AI, how do I get this off? This is a rice stain and I can't figure it out. The true value of AI. There it is. So you're not having the impulse to be like, because I feel this I'm making so much content. And so like when I'm behind the guy behind making short form video, I feel like I have a lot of experience making short form video. And what you're optimizing for is the attention of the potential viewer. You're not necessarily optimizing for an artistic expression. And I think like you're saying, it's really hard, but it's a little bit like uh who's wagging the dog here? Like how much of what's being made, because it's only being curated by the audience, there it's great. There's no gatekeeper, right? But when there is no gatekeeper, you start to lose things like why? Why are we doing this at all?

SPEAKER_03 55:39

Yeah. Well, I I think that the democratization is good. And I think every artist, even if you're doing long-form art or if you're doing short sound bites, has that responsibility to say, are you grabbing your audience? I mean, I think we get indulgent. And so sometimes it becomes very indulgent where people, oh, I can just go on for three hours and you have to watch my play. No, I don't want to.

SPEAKER_00 56:02

Listen to my podcast.

SPEAKER_03 56:03

Right. I don't want to watch your three-hour podcast. Thank you very much. Okay, now we got into the drama. Um But no, I think we have to grab attention. And so I think something that the shorter forms are teaching us is we've got to figure out how to grab the attention. Now you ask a great ethical question: for what purpose are we grabbing the attention? And are we doing something of value with grabbing the attention? If it's just for a hot hit and and there's nothing else behind it, well then that's kind of pandering and horrid. But I do think that the the lessons learned by having to figure out how am I gonna grab an audience are the same lessons no matter what form.

SPEAKER_00 56:44

Yeah, you gotta have them.

SPEAKER_03 56:45

You gotta have them.

SPEAKER_00 56:46

And you gotta have them quick.

SPEAKER_03 56:47

And you know, why should I watch? And I think with the democratization, what ends up happening in the longer sphere is that the audience goes, I'm not sure I want to watch this anymore.

SPEAKER_00 56:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:59

I don't think I'm gonna watch another episode of Bridgerton, thank you very much. You know, I just don't know if that's what I want to do.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

This might be my my bias against the things that I do, which is I my concern is that it preys upon people's inability to say no, the way gambling preys upon people's inability to say no. You swipe to the next thing and you go, Oh, okay, maybe I'll get the dopamine response in this one. No, okay, maybe oh, I did. Oh, yeah, another one. And it, you know, the you see the comparison, it's like slot machine. And I feel like I want to do something. I try to make it that it's generally positive. I'm trying to make something that's generally fun and improves your your frame of mind. Yes. On a platform that I think maybe is sort of designed to just keep you there. And the things that keep you somewhere sometimes are are not designed in an ethical way.

SPEAKER_03 57:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 57:57

And I don't know what to do about that.

SPEAKER_03 58:00

Well, I think what you are doing is saying, I'm gonna make sure my content is ethical and positive and and moving the bar because you're not taking people to slot machines, you know? And so usually your button, I I tend to watch some of that social media that you put out. My mom watches my clips. Yeah. Um but but the button usually is uh, you know, maybe it's a funny reversal, but it might also be a thing where you go, right, yeah, that that is a better way to treat your kid. You know, so there's these little moments that go, oh right, I have that choice. I could make a more positive choice. Or maybe it's just that release of, I'm not alone. Somebody else is struggling with the same thing that I'm struggling with. You know, I'm not alone out there. Um, and I think that gives huge value. And, you know, it's probably a steady diet of that for you as a creative artist is probably not all you want to do with your career. Right. You know, but it is marvelous on many levels, you know. And I think there should be more short form content like yours than some of the stuff that's leading people to, you know, have a gambling addiction.

SPEAKER_00 59:13

Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:14

See, what you're doing is better than a gambling addiction.

SPEAKER_00 59:17

Yeah, that's good. My my mom thinks I'm slightly better than giving people a an active gambling addiction. A little bit. That's great. Um, okay. So um we've done movie that changed your life.

SPEAKER_03 59:31

Which we we rejected the premise.

SPEAKER_00 59:33

Rejected the premise. That's a classic my mom move. She loves to reject the premise.

SPEAKER_03 59:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 59:37

Uh that's a that's a great uh when we were at Thanksgiving and we were trying to watch trailers for movies we were gonna go out, and it was like four seconds in. I just hear from like behind me, deep behind me, no you're in the room. Here you go. I reject the premise. All right, we're not gonna watch the all-female bank robber movie. Uh that was about to happen. Uh also in the bonus round, I've been asking people do you believe in ghosts?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:03

Yes, because my son saw one.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:05

Oh, which son?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:07

The only son I have, the one I'm looking at right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:10

Yeah, this is a a classic family story.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:13

Back in the old spooky house.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:15

Aaron Powell Yeah. Wait, the house that was haunted with ghosts.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:18

All right. All right. I need to push back a little. So this was the spookiest house. Well, what year was this built? Like 1900?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:26

Yeah, probably.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:27

Around the time of the Ibsen play, probably. And we're doing this is the most relevant. I mean, I haven't spent this much time talking about things over 100 years ago in my life. My mom shows up for 15 minutes, and we're like, if we talk about anything even in the 1900s, I'm out. We need to go deep. Um, so we're in this like old, creaky, like bats were in it a lot. Uh bats were drawn to that house.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:51

And this is not evidence.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:55

So there's a lot of reason for a kid who's like six, seven, six, seven, to be to be nervous, to be scared around this house. And I remember being in our bathroom and looking and like the way the lights coming through the window, I'm like, I created this like ghostly figure so vividly in my mind's eye. And I tell everyone, there's a ghost in here, there's a ghost in our house. We've got a big problem. We got a move.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:23

You saw a woman. You saw a woman that was a ghost, and you and and now you've rewritten it to say that you created it in your mind's eye, but you actually saw it when you were six. And kids can see ghosts better than adults.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:38

According to ghosts.com, I don't that's not that's not necessarily true, but let's let's give your premise all the air that it needs to breathe. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:47

We're not rejecting my premise.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:49

No, I think this is this is a premise we'll accept. We've got um me in a what we'll call haunted house.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:56

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:57

There's there's bats. Yes. That's evidence of something, clearly. Yes. And now I've described seeing uh a woman standing in the shower.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:09

That to me is some uh an anecdote you hear that's pretty the base anecdote. So wouldn't it make sense that that's kind of like the the pre-recorded settings of how I would expect to see that? Because haven't you had this phenomenon where you look at this the stack of clothes and you go, someone's in the house, and you go, Oh wait, it's a stack of clothes. Because that's that was how I remember it.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:33

But I I don't know if you will confess to this now, but I felt like at the time when you were describing it, it was a woman you'd never seen before that you saw. And so it was it was something that you actually saw.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:50

I I'm split on this because I think because kids are so imaginative, you know, and I was like an imaginative child, and I had this baseline of like, we're in such a spooky house. Like my brain is ready to be in the imagination zone of there could be a ghost around in the corner. That wasn't the first time I'd been worried about ghost.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:13

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:13

So I'm I'm afraid, like, I'm gonna see a bat, I'm gonna see a ghost, I'm gonna see anything. So I go in the bathroom and the light shining through into the shower the right way. I go, there's a ghost in the shower. Because of course, like if you're waiting to see, if you're looking around to see things that are red, all you see are things that are red.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:29

You know, you're doing a lot to convince yourself that you did not see this woman ghost.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:34

Okay, viewers decide, did I or did I not? Because I would describe you as a lady in my shower. I think you were a very realistic, pragmatic kid. And um you didn't, I mean, you could be playful and creative, but but I didn't feel like you were quick to invent things that weren't there.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:56

Yeah. The the thing that I do just keep finding in my life though is, and it happens all the time, where you you I walk into the house and there'll be like a shadowy thing, and I go, oh God. And then it's not the thing that I my brain convinced me it was.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:12

Or maybe it was, or your brain convinced me.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:14

Maybe she's following me.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:15

Maybe she is. Yeah. And so I'm not a giant ghost person. I'm really not. But uh actually, your experience with the ghost is one of the things that makes me think that that there are ghosts.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:26

All right. Look at that. That's that's how much my mom enjoys my content. I gave her one clip about a ghost 30 years ago, and she's like, I'm still in. Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:36

I'm I'm all in with that ghost.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:38

That's good content. Uh, last question. What is one quality that you, if you could just download it into your kids or your grandkids, and you would just go, ooh, you get this one on me, you get to pre-download it. What would the quality be?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:54

Self-love.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:55

Oh, that's very nice.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:57

Yeah, absolutely. 100% without question, self love.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:03

All right. I don't think that needs any more. You guys, that was Christina Kirk. It's my mom. Thank you for coming. Thanks for inviting me, Judson. This was fun. This was great. Uh, we will catch you next time. See ya.