"The Professor, the Pastor, and the Pulpit" | Guest: Dr. Kenneth Chapman

What does it actually look like to hold a doctoral lectern in one hand and a pastoral staff in the other for decades?

In Episode 2 of the 40/40 Bi-Vocational Pastor's Podcast, Pastor Arthur J. James sits down with Dr. Kenneth Chapman, a bi-vocational Executive Pastor and Professor at Texas Christian University. Dr. Chapman isn't theorizing about the 40/40 life, he's living it.  In this conversation he opens up about what that has really cost him, what it has given him, and why he believes God never asked him to choose.

Together, they unpack the origin of Dr. Chapman's dual calling, what a real week looks like when the university calendar and the church calendar collide, and how each world quietly shapes the other in ways neither could offer alone. 

If you've ever wondered whether God can truly use a person who refuses to choose between the classroom and the pulpit, this episode is your answer.

IN THIS EPISODE:

• How Dr. Chapman's dual calling emerged and who pushed back

• The theology behind why the sacred/secular divide was never God's idea

• What TCU teaches him that the church never could, and vice versa

• What the 40/40 life has genuinely cost him: relationships, rest, and more

• How to discern whether your season of dual-calling is temporary or permanent

• What the local church loses when its pastors are fully removed from the marketplace

• How he finishes this sentence: "The 40/40 life is not for everyone, but it is for..."

GUEST:

Dr. Kenneth Chapman is a bi-vocational Executive Pastor and Professor at Texas Christian University (TCU). He has spent years navigating the demands of academic leadership and pastoral ministry simultaneously, and brings a rare theological depth and real-world wisdom to the conversation about what it means to hold two callings with integrity. 

Links:

Follow Dr. Chapman:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/kenneth-chapman-jr-ph-d-b4733528/?skipRedirect=true

Life Changing Faith Church - Frisco, TX

https://www.lifechangingfaith.com/

Texas Christian University - Neeley School of Business

https://www.neeley.tcu.edu/

The Autopsy of a Deceased Church

Autopsy of a Deceased Church: 12 Ways to Keep Yours Alive: Rainer, Thom S.: 9781433683923: Amazon.com: Books

40/40 Bi-Vocational Pastors Podcast  |  King Arthur Speaking  |  arthurjjames.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Welcome to the Forty Forty Pastor Podcast. I'm your host, Arthur J. James. And if you're a bi vocational pastor or church leader looking to remain fulfilled in ministry and life, then you've landed at the right spot. Let's get into today's session. We have a great guest that's going to share his insight on the 4040 life in just a moment. But before I bring him on, I want to thank all of you that began to launch with us on the first episode where we begin to uncover what is the 4040 calling. We begin to look at the lies we tell ourselves. And today I want to set the foundation for this episode. This episode will do three things. First of all, it will share with you a model, not a blueprint, of what it looks like to fulfill the 4040 life in a fruitful manner. Dr. Chapman has his own way of doing it, just as many of us who are biocational, so it's a it's a model, not a blueprint. And then secondly, this episode will begin to give you new language around the 4040 Bible life. I'm sure from his perspective, he'll share how he's defined living in both worlds and being successful. We can just add that onto what we already have. And thirdly, in this episode, it is my prayer that you will receive permission to remain in the 4040 by vocational pastor leader in church space. Maybe you're still having a little guilt about having a foot in both worlds. It is our prayer by the time that this episode is done, you have a release and permission to lead in the 4040 space with clarity, with conviction, and with courage. That being shared, it is my extreme pleasure to invite the first guest of the 4040 podcast, Dr. Kenneth Chapman. Welcome, Dr. Chapman. So glad you're here with us.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Amen. Thanks, my brother, for having me. Excited about this opportunity to share with you and also to spend time with you as our counter mentor as well, too, in this particular space around this important topic. So excited to be here.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Well, it is my honor to have you on. Before we get started with any questions, I want to give a proper introduction as best I can. So today, we're blessed to have Dr. Kenneth Chapman. He originally hails from a suburb of Oklahoma City. He's also matriculated through having his undergraduate degree, business degree from the state of Oklahoma. Also, he has a master's degree and a PhD from the University of Oklahoma, if my memory serves me well. He's also a most recent recipient of the Hall of Fame Award, one of the Hall of Fame Awards from Oklahoma Baptist University, which he can tell us a little bit more about that. But he is a man of God. He's also an executive pastor of a church in Frisco, Texas. He told us a little bit more about that as well. But also, he is an instructor/slash professor at the Neely School of Business at one of the country's foremost premier inst uh institutions and universities on research, Texas Christian University. We know it as TCU. He's not originally from Texas, but he got here like most folks did as soon as he could. Uh with that being shared, again, I want to welcome Dr. Kenneth Chapman to the 4040 Pastors Podcast. Good to have you, my brother. It's good to be here. Looking forward to it. Yes, sir. So, first question I want to ask you off the bat. Well, first let's go back. Tell us a little bit more about the Hall of Fame Award you just received.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Yeah. Um, you know, I'm not one to celebrate things. I just put my head down and work. But uh that that is as a result of the bi vocational lifestyle of having working in higher education as an administrator, a dean, and a professor, and also pastoring. Uh one of the one of my stops was Oklahoma Baptist University, where I instituted Kingdom Diversity Focus at the institution, um, being an assistant dean of students and in charge of what we call Kingdom uh impact, kingdom diversity, not your traditional chief diversity officer role that many public institutions have. Um so that was a blend of my pastorate and professorship. Um and then years later, after I'd moved to Texas, they wanted to honor the work that I did there. So that was being inducted to the Hall of Fame, the Walter O. Mason uh Hall of Fame. Walter O. Mason was the first black tenure professor at OBU. Oh, wow. And he was a part of the framework for trio programs nationally that were birthed out of that. And so it was an honor to be recognized alongside uh that legacy, but also, again, perfect timing. It was a validation of the bivocational work because I came in as a pastor and then needed to work to make money and to pay bills and pay for diapers and daycare. And so just blending the two worlds in a Christian institution allowed me to do the bivocational thing. And so that honor just really honored uh the work that we did there during that time. So uh that's that's what that was all about.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

Great. And I know you have experience also in Dallas uh before going to TCU at Fort Worth as a liberal arts dean. Well, we we actually met before that at Dallas College, before it was Dallas College. And you also have leadership positions and roles at the University of Oklahoma. So you have a wealth of experience. And so I just want to say thanks for being with us again. That being shared, the first question I want to ask you is what do what do you say when people ask you, what do you do?

SPEAKER_00 5:52

So I always, well, it's it's evolved over time. Um at first it was what my actual uh profession was, which was, you know, executive dean of liberal arts or professor. Um and I think more so because I kept the two worlds separate, pastor and what my worldly job was. Uh but over time it evolved to that what I am first is I'm a pastor first. I'm a believer first. Um and that's what I try to teach my students and try to, you know, shepherd our flock towards. We're called first and foremost to be followers of Christ. Then, oh, by the way, we have to be accountants or architects or bankers. Like our first identity is our Christian identity. And so over the last few years, when people ask, what do you do for a living? Well, I'm a pastor, uh, but I also am a professor and also teach and I'm above vocational. And a lot of people are like, well, what does by vocational mean? Well, uh, my there's two identities that I hold. The one that leads is my pastoring, and I do my pastoring wherever I go. And just so happens that being a professor, I teach wherever I go as well, too. But that has evolved over time because at first it was like, hey, just talk about my worldly career and the pastor thing set over here. And if we went into conversation around ministry, around uh the faith, then I would reveal that. Now, first and foremost, I'm a pastor. I serve as active pastor and my other job is a professor. So it's evolved over time.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Okay. And have you become more comfortable throughout the years, or has it always been more of the emphasis being placed on the pastoral role?

SPEAKER_00 7:26

I think more comfortable. Um, and as I grew up in ministry and realized that uh, you know, coming into ministry, the first thing is like, Lord, are you really calling me to this? Um and then it's like, well, I'm I'm good at speaking in front of people and I'll just fill a gap, or I'm good at administrating affairs of the church. And then you realize, no, God is really calling me to this. This is who I am. Um and then you come to a point to realize, oh, it's been on me all my life. Um, I just either ran from the Lord or didn't want to acknowledge it, and to the point where it's like that statement of being sold out for Christ, that's really being sold out for Christ. Like, first and foremost, my identity is in him. And so how I introduce myself by way, what I do for him, for the kingdom, uh, being comfortable in that. And not everybody is there. Um, and I talked to a lot of uh pastor friends who you know are on flights or at baseball games, and people ask, what do you do for a living? You know, and they don't necessarily reveal that piece because they don't want to, you know, get in an awkward conversation, or they don't want people to change their behavior because, oh, I'm around a pastor now. I shouldn't have a beer at the baseball game, live around a pastor. Um, and like I tell people all the time, be who you are. Um, this is my identity, my calling. Um, and I'm not here to browbeat you or to cast you to hell. That's not mine to do. But by my example of you knowing that I am a pastor and I'm comfortable in that, uh, you know who to go to uh for those spiritual needs. And oh, by the way, I have these other roles that I hold as well, too. So it's definitely a level of comfort that has evolved over time.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

So I see you or I hear you saying that that even opens the door for potential ministry conversation as you take advantage of the observation of just simply using your introduction. I love that. So you took us back a little bit to the beginning of your calling. I want to ask a follow-up question related to was there a particular person, mentor, pastor, denominational leader, someone who gave you permission to stay in both worlds as you sensed a calling as a pastor, but God was also calling you into education and to business as well. And uh right behind that, coupled with it rather, is was there anyone that um gave you some permission? So pushback andor permission, folks, in your life?

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Yeah, that that's a great question. I love that. So I've been in church all my life. Uh my dad was chairman of the deacons uh most of my life. And, you know, I've gone to smaller churches, so I've never known the full-time pastorate. Um, never knew that. I've all all my childhood pastors had other jobs um that I that I knew about. And so the full-time pastor was kind of like a unicorn, an anomaly. Um and so growing up in the Baptist faith um and noticing um the service on Sundays and pouring in and then the Monday through Friday other jobs, that's what I grew up knowing. And so I don't think it was until I really got involved in ministry full-time that I said that some people actually do this full-time, like this is their full-time job. Um, and I think I was older and I asked a question to one of my uh mentors in Oklahoma City one time. I was like, uh he had just took a church, a smaller church, um, and he had gone full-time. And I said, You can actually do this full-time. And it was it blew my mind, like you actually like benefits and payroll, like because that's always in the back of your head as a provider, as a father, as a husband. Um I didn't know that. So that was my world was blown that you could you could pastor full-time. And that became one of my goals is in later on in life, once you know my kids are older, I would transition from a traditional full-time role into a full-time pastor role. The reason why I so I kind of went reverse in the ministry. Um, I knew I wanted to be a professor, I knew I wanted to be in the university setting. So I went and got all my degrees in education. I didn't go to seminary, uh, I wasn't connected to a large denomination or convocation uh like most others are. And so my opportunities came from uh from teaching, uh teaching at the conventions, the National Baptist Convention, teaching in the district. That's where my opportunities came from using my teaching gifts uh that I had learned from higher education and building curriculum. And then I accepted the call to the ministry and then started taking classes around ministry and church operations and seminary classes. So I kind of came backwards. But at that point, I had a PhD, I had all this student loan that I'm like, well, the churches that I'm serving are not mega churches, and they don't know what staff is, what a staff salary is. So I had to pay for that in addition to when we uh added more kids up to five now. So I had to have benefits. Um mama needed some money to spend every now and then, and ministry is honorable, but you gotta have, you know, you gotta have some capital sometimes to do some things. And so uh I'm blessed in hindsight now to see that education lended itself with the schedule, you know, summers off, um, you know, most holidays off, and flexibility to go and do, you know, funerals or travel, things of that nature. Education was a field that lended itself to that. Um, and then, you know, and I'll tell the secret on our story. Like I didn't know you. Um, and so I was actually grappling with, we were at the University of Oklahoma, my wife was nursing there in Oklahoma, but we felt called to Dallas. Um, I applied at SMU, I'd applied a bunch of places. And so I actually went on LinkedIn. Uh a mentor of mine said, well, you got to start connecting with people who do this, who do the bivocational thing. Um, and sure enough, as the spirit would have it, Arthur James came up and preaching through pain. I see the book right there. Wow. And I reached out on LinkedIn, not knowing anything about Dallas County Community College, not knowing Shonda Floyd, none of that. Um, and that's when we started connecting. And again, one of the things I think is beautiful about bivocational pastors is that they're always willing to help another. And you didn't know me from Adam, but you got on a call with me. Uh, you you mentored me, you reached out to me through text, you kept your eye open. And again, I didn't know about Dallas County Community College. I was applying, I was a blitz applying everywhere. And sure enough, I interviewed with Shonda and got the job, then I realized that you were still working there as well, too. Um, and then that's how, again, I it's a God thing that connected us. Um, and then, and I will say it not just because I'm the first on the podcast, but I followed how you mapped it out, how you did the bi-vocational league. I mean, we had conversations on how do you wind one down and ramp the other up, uh, making sure that, you know, because income mortgage got to be paid, right? And God is a provider, right? But also there's the benefits, and then there's the time, right? And then there's attention too, right? Because there are things that you can't get out of. You got to be at meetings or you gotta be, um, you gotta manage staff and you can't make everything. And there's that tension there as well, too. So that was kind of my journey through becoming bi vocational, um, also having the goal to go full-time ministry. I don't think I'll ever pass, you know, a 3,000-member church, right? So I'll always be in a setting to where there needs to be multiple streams of income because we're in the world, not of the world, and we got to have money to live in the world, but also making sure that my focus is always on that first identity pastor. So if I'm a janitor at Walmart, I'm a pastor who's a janitor at Walmart. Uh, if I'm a professor, if I'm a banker, that identity always flows, and that's just the means of God is providing the provision for my house through those different areas of bivocational aspect. I don't know if that answers the question or not.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

It did. It did even more so than I than I thought I was gonna hear. But it sounds like, unlike many young pastors, young preachers, who once they see the latest and greatest on the television, televangelist, or just believe there's a call, that that's gonna be me. It's gonna be full-time. It sounds like you didn't have that pressure on yourself to automatically and immediately jump out in full-time ministry, but rather there was more of a cultivation throughout the process. Can you can you talk to me a little bit more about how you were able to stay in a place of contentment, especially being in the Bible Belt, you know, Oklahoma, Texas, when you're seeing all these uh mega ministries around us, what's one of the things that that has helped you stay grounded as a bivocational pastor in both spaces?

SPEAKER_00 15:46

I think the contentment came from um seeing the background of a lot of the bigger ministries. Um and again, I'm not knocking or judging or critiquing, but my exposure um to you know convocations, Church of God in Christ convocations and you know, preaching at large churches by way of invitation, um, I got to see the good, bad, and the ugly. Um, and when I accepted the call fully sold out for Christ, I said, Lord, I'm I'm all the way in. I don't want to half step. And so I witnessed a lot of uh powerful men of God who had secret sin. Um, not that anyone's without sin, but the the ministry became a drug. And ministry became more of fan base than it was saving souls. And so God exposed me to that, and that that breeded my my contentment. Like, Lord, I don't ever want to be, sure, I'll I would love to pastor a healthy church, but I'll I'll I'd rather have five who are saved and on fire for the Lord than 5,000. Um, and so I think that exposure keeps me content because, you know, you know, I went and visited a church years and years ago, and um the the conversation in the back before we came out was around how many numbers you running. Um Doc, how many numbers you're running? And and what's your annual budget, Doc? And you know, and hospitality suites at the conferences, uh, where, you know, and those things agree and all that. And I'm like, it becomes more about the man than actually the the ministry of Christ. And that's what keeps me content. Um and you know, and I tell people all the time, you know, I've been on a stage with Tony Evans. I I've preached to the thousand before, I've gone to large churches before. It does nothing for me because I preached the same as I did at the little country church in Brooksville, Oklahoma, where there were 18 people there, and they paid, they gave my wife a peach cobbler for my honorarium. I preached with the same fervor and conviction as I did to a thousand or as I do in the shower, right? Because again, those things feed the flesh, but I'm after following God in the spirit because again, he is called, how can they hear except they have a preacher and how can they preach unless they be sent? And so I take it so serious that I can't allow my flesh to get caught up in those things of bigger budgets and bigger facilities. Now, I'm still human. Uh, you know, I go to churches, I'm like, oh, that's nice, you know. Um, the little things you have on the back in your pews that to tap to give. I saw that when I was there. Like, we ought to have that. Like, so those things are good because I think in churches we should be supporting each other with best practices, but I never let the feeling of competition, because we're not in competition, we're in collaboration for the Great Commission. Amen. And that's what keeps me content.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

So, hearing that, what would you say to a young pastor, young preacher watching, young ministry worker watching this, who has more of the ambition than they do of really understanding the totality of the calling that you just talked about?

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Be careful. Um, God has gifted us um with intellect, with charisma, um, with public speaking ability, with you know the ability to um take um a text uh and illuminate it, whatever style it's in. But be careful that you don't allow the gift to become an idol. Because sometimes the gift becomes an idol and we're trying to fuel the idol because we like the pat on the back. Or, you know, the worst thing for a preacher is after ministering on Sunday, is to hear you preach that thing, Doc. It's not it's not about the doc and who preached, it's about who was glorified. And if we're not secure in ourselves and if we're not solely focused on doing what God has called us to do, that gift becomes an idol. And then we're looking for more amans when we preach. We're looking for, did we set the church on fire? I have grown, and early on, if it was amens and it was hot and popping, that to me was like I did good and God was pleased. No, no, no, no, no, no. What God is pleased with is when they actually go and live what we just said and execute it from the text. So now, um, and I tell wherever I read, I know my wife's gonna say amen, because that's my verbal validation that I'm in the right space or I'm going too long, right? But when people are quiet, that means they're thinking. So I'm much rather a quiet church than a whole bunch of amens in the choir jumping and shouting. Because then that's emotion. And emotion runs out, but anointing is long sustainable and long standing. And so we got to be careful, don't let the gift become an idol. Because when it becomes an idol, then you want bigger budgets, you want bigger facilities, you want more people. The angels rejoice over one. And so you can preach a powerful sermon to one person, and God is pleased where there are a thousand people, and God is like, oh, you just did a great public speech without any anointing or my spirit.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

I agree with 100% with everything you just said. I have a follow-up to ask you this. Uh can you give one or two of the nuggets that God dropped into your spirit that help you evolve to that practice? Because one of the things I've always appreciated about you as a young pastor leader, bivocational leader, is that you you get it. You're able to uh walk with kings and not lose the common touch.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

Amen. Yeah, that's a good question. Um I'd say one is falling in the trap. Um one of the first two or three years. Um before we move to Texas, uh, my wife will testify like we were getting invitations all over Oklahoma, Texas, different denominations. Um they got preached for all the different denominations. And so uh falling in the trap uh because you are articulate and you you're young and you're you're something different than you know their their traditional pastor, um, and you know, you're able to bring An old text to light and bring new revelation. Falling in the trap convicts you because then it's like, well, wait a minute. I'm it's becoming more about me than it is about him. Um and you know, I remember my first big honorarium was uh $500. And I thought, I only preached for 20 minutes and I got $500. You did the math. I'm like, man, oh Lord, I if I do two of these, like that's $1,000 a week, right? Like I can make something out of this. And then the conviction came, was like, wait a minute, are you doing it for the honorarium? Are you doing it because I called you and redeemed you and saved you, and now you're able to use your gift for my glory? And so that first nugget, I think, is if you fall, you're gonna fall into the trap because uh we're humans, right? Every man is right in his own eyes, as the Bible says, right? But recognize when you fall in it, what is your what is the root calling? Because I I know a lot of pastors now who are still in the trap, uh, who it's a business to them and not a ministry. Um and so, and that begins to impact the body, right? Because the body takes on the head, and now you've got a whole body of believers who are superficial, who are validated by superficial words and facility and budgets, uh, because that is kind of the personality of who's preaching and teaching them, and because they're still stuck in that trap. I'd say the other thing too is um you are the company you keep. Um before I accepted the call, I loved reading the word of God, right? Uh I love I'm I love reading history, I love knowing things. Um, and so I've always hung around, uh, no offense, old pastors. Uh, you know, that that's just who I grew up older. Older, right now, who I grew up around. And so my mannerisms uh reflect that, right? Um the decorum that we have in the sanctuary reflect that of the old school of the 80s and 90s pastors who wore three-piece suits, right? Who uh, you know, who wore black on first Sunday, who uh who came to the pulpit and kneeled before they even said anything to anybody. So I was around that, and that company that inspired and influenced me. And some the pastors, the older mentors who are now gone on the glory, told me, know that Bible back and forth, be able to give an answer, not your opinion, not a commentary, but what does the word of God say? And so every time I stand, um and I know it's dangerous now with AI, because AI will produce a whole three-point sermon for you. AI is a supplement, but it should not be a replacement. And so studying the word of God, knowing it in and out, not even for the people, but for yourself, because I believe the company you keep around you will tell you, hey, you might need to study a little bit more. Or, hey, how about we consider this concept a little bit more? Uh, one of my first years preaching, I preached a sermon. I in my mind, I preached the paint off the walls. Um, and then my pastor at the time was my childhood pastor uh before he had passed, uh, put me in the office, and I'm thinking I'm gonna get pat on the back and great job. Uh and he said, You need to study a little bit more, less shouting, less celebration, less cheerleading, and more exegesis, and more homeletics and hermeneutics. And you did good, but there's more work to do. And so I've always taken that with me. So the company you keep will be honest with you. They will celebrate you, but be honest with you. And he's the one that said, hey, you know, there's a call on your life, and people are going to respond and listen to you, but don't take that lightly. Take that opportunity and build something with that. And so that's why to this day, when I'm preparing for a sermon, commentary, studying, praying, fasting, seeking the will of God, and being sensitive to the Holy Spirit when I arrive at the pulpit, because sometimes the spirit wants to do other things, that's maturity as well. That says, Lord, I yield more to you than what I prepared. Because sometimes arrogance says, Well, I did all this study and labor, they need to hear these three points. And sometimes the spirit says, No, one is enough, let me work. And I think that comes from the company you keep and not fall in the trap if I could get those.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

That that is awesome. And I hope uh someone's watching who heard that, not just young, but it's a trap even in the social media day for those of us who are seasoned to not forget to keep the main thing, the main thing. Uh that that being shared, one of the questions I get quite a bit from 40-40 pastors and church leaders is how do you manage it all in a week? Can you talk to us a little bit about what's a not a perfect week, but what's a week, a typical week, uh, day of the week, and uh, how does that look? And how do you manage the professor, the pulpit, and the preacher?

SPEAKER_00 26:49

It's a loaded question. Um it's a lot. Um, and one of the ways is obviously uh my wife is a planner in her way her brain works, and so what I leveraging my my helpmate, um, because I'm called the pastor, she's not. But her call is to me as her husband. And so I leverage her gifting for the betterment of my ministry. So I'll give her here's all the things that need to be done, and she'll slot it and allocate time and do all that, um, along with my first ministry as a pastor is my family. Period. That's my first ministry. So when the fall, when we have, you know, high school football on Fridays, uh, we got flag football on Thursdays, we got gymnastics across all five kids. My first ministry, I'm not an effective pastor in the pulpit if I'm not pastoring at home properly. That's with my marriage and with my family. And so that takes priority. And that also, for me, that's where a lot of my preaching material comes from. My illustration examples, because God speaks to me through my children or at the football field. I see an illustration there. I'm like, oh, there's my point right there. Um, but that's my first ministry. So if I can encourage anybody, God calls us first to our family. If if a man's home's not right, he's not fit to rule the kingdom, the house of the Lord. And so your marriage got to be right before the Lord in covenant. Your children, how your parent has to be right. So I always make sure that time is prioritized throughout my week, whatever that looks like, whether it's a game or practice, pickup, drop off.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

So, so talk to us a little bit about your scheduling process. I know you you work with the wife. Do you guys have some guarded time for kid pickup? Are you involved in that as well? And I'm asking the question because there's so many out there watching who so get where you're you are in your world with the multiple kids. You said five kids. Five is a number of grace, right? But it takes grace to get all those kids where they need to go and the wife. And we say a lot that our ministry first is at the marriage and with the family, but a lot of us don't always do that. So please continue to share the nuggets to how you're doing that successfully.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

What we do is obviously we use technology. Uh, we got a skylight calendar where everything is loaded in there. Um, here's where this person is supposed to be, that person's supposed to be. Is it together? Is it divide and conquer? And we allocate that. We actually have a uh every Sunday, we look at the week ahead. Here's what's happening. If I am preaching that week, she knows that we build in time where I have some time alone with the Lord. I have that already, but specific time uh to you know work through uh my sermon prep. And I'll kind of talk about that in detail here in a little bit. Um, and then we take it day by day. So, like a Monday, it may be a pickup or drop off for me. Um, and then what we try to do is wake up early to do our Bible study time, our individual study time, starting at 5:30 a.m., get up early. So that way that's done, and that makes our day go better because we spend time with the Lord, and then we could focus on the kids' stuff. Now, one of the blessings of being in education is the flexible schedule. So my teaching schedule is Tuesday, Thursdays. So I drive from Frisco to Fort Worth, which is an hour and 20 minutes one way, but I'm out there all day. And then Monday, Wednesday, Friday are days that I have office hours on Zoom or online or meetings. And so that flexibility gives me some things that I can move around versus a traditional eight to five. So that's just the way my setup is. But I even think a person with a traditional eight to five could still build in during their lunchtime, um, during break time. Um when I was a dean, what I would do is during my lunchtime, I would go, you know, find a quiet space, and then that's where I'll start studying scripture. So there's ways to work around it if you don't have the flexibility per se. What I do driving to work, I listen to Bible on tape, right? I listen to sermons on YouTube to monopolize that time or podcast to monopolize that time to get something in versus listen to the sports channel or the RB channel, right? Let's make good use of the time since we're in the car. So there's ways to use the time to prepare for the week. So that's the family component, focused on the family. If I know big things are coming up back to back, I'll shift things around to make sure that I get my time with the Lord, uh, specific time, me and my wife connection time, and time with the kids to keep things around. But you just gotta know a person who doesn't plan is set up to fail. So you gotta have, you gotta write, even if you just write stuff down, because you don't want time will manage you if you don't manage it.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

Yes, yes, sir.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

Not all weeks I'm preaching. Um, you know, in February I did four straight. And so what that looked like is we did our normal house operation stuff, times with the kids and marriage stuff, and then also other things, you know. But what I did was I made sure to sometimes I do a series. I know, hey, I'm gonna spend four weeks here, which helps the preacher, right? Um, other times there's specific things that I feel like the Lord wants to say. So on Monday and Tuesday, uh one of my old mentors told me this you actually start preparing for the next sermon when you finish the one you just did. So as soon as I'm done on Sunday, I'm already preparing for the next one. Whether that's an outflow of what we just did or something new. So Monday and Tuesday is just it's reading, it's opening the Bible, reading line for line scripture, meditating on the word, praying through it. Um, that's what I take Monday and Tuesday for. Wednesday, I'll go to commentaries to see kind of what others have to say. Um, historical context, what's going on historically, kind of that hermeneutic uh exegesis process. Thursdays, I'm putting it all together. I preach in three points. That's just how I was taught. Three points to the point, right? There's the Baptist identity there. You know, it's just who we are. Um, and then Friday, I take time to fast over it. And my goal is by Saturday, it's complete, then I don't have to touch it. Uh, because I want Saturday not to be stressing to going into Sunday. Now, there may be some tweaks or something I think of to add in or an illustration, but I like to not have the pressure on Saturday where I can just have a normal Saturday evening. Not always, but often to where I can just I can sleep normal, get up refreshed, and then be in worship on Sunday. I'm one that I like to be a part of praise and worship, not to come out afterwards. Because I believe that's a part of the ministry aspect. And I believe people need to see their pastor in worship. Um that way the sermon should be done. Now, God always speaks, He there's times when he'll change things up, when he'll drop things in, and you make those edits, but for the bulk of everything, that the context and kind of the core, I like to have all that done by Friday's end uh to kind of merge into that. And so one thing that I learned early on is that pastors who are truly called by God, we don't prepare to preach. We come out of devotion into preaching. For the life of the overflow. Right. We should already be in the word every day. We should already have things to share. We should be preparing, we should come out of devotion into sharing. So that's kind of the process I go through.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

Let me ask you a follow-up, and I I don't mean it to be a loaded question. It just came. So, if I were to ask your wife, what's one thing that Dr. Chapman does that allows you and the children to celebrate and not resent him being in ministry as a bivocational pastor, what would she say?

SPEAKER_00 34:13

That's a good question. Oh, probably the priority of them over ministry. I mean, I know that's not very common. Um, and I would say I, you know, I've watched how you move uh with my sister uh and over the years and the priority of the marriage and family in ministry. Um it's like we're doing it together. Um while I'm the one that's called, we're doing it together. And so when we get to church on Sundays, I make sure my wife is good before I go to the office. Do you need anything? Right. Uh I'll make sure, you know, my kids are church kids, so when we pull up, they all run it off to their classes they know to be, you know. Um, but the priority of them over ministry, because I've witnessed growing up so many who didn't prioritize their families or their marriages, and then that created uh gaps and pitfalls that they fell into. Um and so I think that would be the thing is that uh whenever we travel to a place, uh, you know, the tradition of the pastor goes to the office and sits in the back and then comes out. No, I'll make sure my family's good. Uh and we have an armor bearer with us as well, too. But um, and even those who travel with me, like I'll make sure my people are good before I go do any of that because that's my first calling. And if they're not good, then I can't preach well, I can't lead well because we got to come back home, right? Um and there's uh I think value in prioritizing. And again, a lot don't do that now because, you know, yes, you're full-time, and yes, and I've heard my friends say, well, they're paying me. Yeah, they're paying you. But I think a true biblically literate church will appreciate a pastor who prioritizes his wife and his family over the ministry because they're not in competition. If I don't do this well per the Bible, then I can't do this well. Um, not to say that we don't have arguments. There's some Sundays we pull up the church arguing. Amen. Glory to God, Holy Spirit-inspired fellowship. Amen. But we in covenant, and we know when we go in here, we together, we are one. Uh, but the priority first is my calling, relationship with God, then my wife and my children, then the church, and then everything else flows from that.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

That's so good. And I hope our listeners are getting that, because that's something that that is so critical to all of our ministries, is having that base. I want to go a little bit further on the practical with this schedule. For instance, when there is, I know I I can appreciate the academic schedule, but what happens when there is a crisis at the church and you're in class or and not necessarily in class, but a situation where there's a tension between one pulls you from the other? Has there ever been a situation like that and how have you handled that? And what advice would you have for others?

SPEAKER_00 37:04

You know, and it's sometimes, again, sometimes it's flexible, sometimes it's not. And I'm sensitive to the fact that, you know, those of us in the education kind of have a blessed situation. But I have, you know, colleagues who work eight to fives in high-demanding jobs and still pastoring churches. So very sensitive to that. And I think that's that's that tension uh because there's a crisis that requires your presence and attention, but then there's what the place pays you to do. Um, and so how do you navigate that? Um, the way I've done that over the years when that existed is the um assessment, um, assess and refer. I think that's where it comes around having strong leaders. You know, I was a situation to where we had one of our uh powerful brothers, deacon brethren, uh, who was just the salt of the earth, was kind of uh the glue of our brotherhood church, passed away unexpectedly. I'm in the office, way in Fort Worth, family, had young boys, family. Uh he was connected in a lot of ways. How are we gonna navigate? And so I've got a meeting that I got to go to with Dean and all that. They may understand, but they may not, because I can't say, hey, I have a ministry. They may not, you know, then it's gonna get weird there. Um, so assess and refer what requires me to actually come home, or what requires me that I can wait, or is there someone I trust who can kind of stand in the gap until I can get there? And I think that's where strong leadership and strong partnerships come in. Um and navigate in technology. Does my present physical presence need to be there? Or can we zoom? Can we hop on a phone call or FaceTime and be present? And then I can reassure, hey, here's where I'm at, what I'm doing. I'll be there at this time, and then we can take it further, or have a great associate or assistants, or armor bearers, or somebody who you know can step in as a representative to help manage it till you're present there. But then that tension is there. Um, but then there are times when it's like, hey, no, I need to be there. So I'm going to, you know, use my flexibility. Hey, I gotta miss this meeting. Here's what's going on. Hope you understand, or use PTO or Sickly, those of that nature. And that's again, that's kind of the ebb and flow of being bivocational. You just kind of got to navigate that. One of the things I think that I would encourage bivocational pastors who are new or trying to figure it out, is find a way to communicate that you're bivocational in those spaces. Everywhere I've ever worked, people have known that I'm a pastor. And generally, since we live in a culture where ministry and churches and faith people have an understanding of that, they know, oh, you're a pastor. They may not know executive pastor, senior pastor, associate, they may not know those nuances. But they know a pastor, there's gonna be some kind of push and pull involved with that. Um, so that has helped as well, too, knowing that I'm a pastor. Oh, why isn't Chapman here today? Well, he is a pastor, so this is you know one of the things he can't go on the retreat this weekend because he's he's pastoring a church. And they're sensitive to that. And I found most people, when they know, uh, they're respectful of that, not only because, you know, legally they can't push back too much against that, but also I think respectably and culturally, we we still have respect for those, the men of the cloth.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

Has there ever been a time where there's been a, for lack of a better phrase, a fire at the university while you were at the church and and vice versa, do you handle it the same way the leadership at the church covering while you're having to go back to the campus?

SPEAKER_00 40:40

Those are there's one day when, you know, I left Fort Worth to Frisco, did what needed to handle here, and then went back to Fort Worth, and what I thought had handled was a fixed weapon and had to go back. But uh, thank the Lord for safe travels on the highways and byways and for paying the toll bill, because some days it's like that, because you got to be both places. Um He gives us the grace to be both places and to handle things. Uh, but collaborate, have a team, and sometimes it just needs to be you need to be stretched in because ministry is work, and sometimes there is a stretching. It is. Those days aren't frequent, but they do happen, and there is that tension.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

I used to tease you'd appreciate this. I used to tease that they built the George Bush here in Grand Prairie just for me, just so I can get from here to the college quickly. I want to now talk a little bit more about not just the the challenge of both worlds, but what about the blessings and the benefits of both worlds? What, in particular, what has being a bivocational pastor and being a professor, how has being a professor helped you be a better pastor, and then vice versa?

SPEAKER_00 41:49

That's a that's a beautiful question. Um so I found out early on that my mission field was 18 to 21 year olds. Um and because understanding my own faith walk going to college and questioning, you know, I'm told 18 years, you believe this, you believe this, and then you get there and like find out all some stuff was man-made, some stuff was actually showed to me in the Bible. Um, you know, because you know, growing up that Baphocostal, right? You know, you're going to hell for everything and don't do this, don't do that. And I'm like, y'all just told me you didn't show me. And so once I went through that process myself, I didn't want to be the next pastor who just told you something but didn't show you in the Bible what God says about it. And so I committed to studying scripture to where if there's a reason why you shouldn't do it, here's why, and here's the impact. And so, 18 to 21-year-olds, uh, that's just been my mission field. And so, public universities, private universities, I've been able to pray with them, walk alongside them in the most critical juncture in their lives, which sets the foundation for the next season of their faith. And so that has been a blessing because, you know, I've got students who'll come to me years later, getting married, said, Hey, Dr. Chapman, uh, I know you were, you talked about covenant marriage and being, you know, a covenant husband or a covenant wife. Will you pray for me or will you counsel us? Um, and I'm like, and these are non-believers, right? Students who weren't part of the faith uh but just knew I was a pastor. Um so again, that's the opportunities that flow from that. Even across campus, um, and then with partners, um uh college university partners, you know, I'm sitting at a meeting with JP Morgan Chase bankers uh for mentoring programs, and they know I'm a pastor, and that it either starts a conversation like, hey, I serve in ministry, or they have questions like, hey, um, what do you think about the solar eclipse? Is that God or not? And so we're able to start having conversations um that we wouldn't otherwise have that maybe just be about business. And so I believe that God has gifted us to be in different spaces, but use the gifts for his glory. So when I'm in the class, I'm preaching. When I'm in the pulpit, I'm teaching. But also when I'm in the classroom, I'm teaching. When I'm in the pulpit, I'm I'm preaching. So it again, it it ebbs and flows for me. But it's it's a blessing because everybody, for me, everybody needs to be taught and everybody has to be preached to. And so I just change, I change the audience out. Sometimes it's in a management class, sometimes it's in the pulpit, but it's still the same focus. I'm saying how God can use you as a managed business, as a future CEO of a major Fortune 100. Here's how God can use you, versus in the pulpit, here's what the scripture says on how to live a better life.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

Now I know you have experience both teaching and leading at TCU, which is a Christian school, but you've also had experience at Oklahoma University, University of Oklahoma, and Dallas College, which are not necessarily Christian schools. Can you talk a little bit about the difference in being in one versus the other as it relates to how you operate as a bivocational pastor?

SPEAKER_00 44:59

So that's a great question. And people ask me that all the time. How are you a pastor at a University of Oklahoma, a public institution where they do things the culture is against Christianity and against the Bible? And my and they blow their mind on tell them I have more ministry opportunities at public institutions than I ever did at Christians. And so we're in the world, not of the world. Let your light so shine before men so they may see your good works, which glorify our Father in heaven. So that's the problem. We become secluded and we become so insular that we don't want anything to do with them. Guess what? Jesus died for them just as much as he died us. And just like somebody came and got me, I'm that light. So yes, they have a professor and they may be doing something that is counter to scripture. They have a professor who's not going to judge them, but who's going to love the hell out of them, right? And I had many opportunities of gender identity or racism, all the things that are counter to scripture. And many opportunities where people came to me at first expecting me to do like the loud Christians do and judge you and critique you and condemn you to hell. Yes, there is a real hell, but my Bible teaches me that Jesus died for all, whosoever will let them come, and there's an opportunity to minister there. I may be planting the seed, I may be watering. That's for God to decide, but I need to be the light in those spaces. Again, we are believers first, and then our profession second. So whether you work for the city or whether you work for the bank, you're a believer first, and then God will provide opportunities in the bank for you to minister, right? He'll provide opportunities for you working for the city, the water department. He'll provide opportunities. And that's what I tell our church all the time, because we have a vast people working in different fields. One of our sisters runs the City of Frisco Water Department. And so she's able to minister to people through her gifting and not even know through the call center, she's able to say, have a blessed day. Or she's able to say, hey, uh, this person just called in, uh struggling to pay a bill. She's able to refer them to Christian resources to pay their bills. And then, oh, by the way, they had a conversation about how Jesus is a provider and they get saved. So again, we're believers first in the world, not of the world, and God has called us to shine our light in these public spaces. So if not us, then who? And so I love going into places that are unsaved and that they're lost, left out, left behind, because it gives me an opportunity to not condemn people to hell, but to tell them about a man named Jesus who can save them from their sins and can be their Lord in this life and savior in the next. So I love it. Most people don't like they all just need to be in an insert Christian environment. Yeah, but he didn't save us to stay put. No, he saved us to go out and serve.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

So let me ask you this follow-up. Do you believe, being at a Christian institution, that sometimes people can become too comfortable because, quote unquote, it is a Christian institution or a business, a Christian-owned business? What are your thoughts related to that?

SPEAKER_00 47:52

No, absolutely. I think sometimes it becomes an excuse. Um, because we're Christian, we we assume that everybody is saved because we're Christian. I'm not naive to think that everybody showing up on Sunday morning is saved. Some do it out of tradition, some do it out of habit, some do it out of public pressure, but not everybody sitting in our seats on Sunday, they're saved, right? And so if that is the case for God's church, and God even knows that, think about all the other institutions, social institutions. We have a natural need to belong, Maslow's hierarchy need. So we're going to belong to something, show up. So win and wrong, do as the Roman, so yeah, I'm gonna go to chapel because everybody else is going to chapel. That don't mean I confessed with my mouth and believed in my heart. And so, even in the Christian spaces, even in church, there's a book called The Unsaved Christian. Like, we still have to disciple. We still have to. That's why the old church called rededications on Sundays is because I knew it but fell away from it. So we've got to not be naive to think just because Christian is in the name that it's in the hearts of the people who come there or who belong to the organization.

SPEAKER_01 48:56

I want to ask you this question, simply hearing about your sweet spot with young people. Some of the latest research from Barnes showed that young men, those teenage to early 20 years, they are coming to the church and coming to Christ at a much greater rate than historically young ladies. I'd love to hear your insight on what you think or what you've seen has been some of the rationale related to that research.

SPEAKER_00 49:25

Yeah. Um, so my research was in um male identity in Christian universities. Um, and what we found is that there the outcome from uh FCA and having men mentors who were believers, we're now starting to see that harvest. Because my softball coach was also a deacon at the church, right? Or my my basketball literally coach also served in ministry. And so the family may not have been of the faith, but that influence, because there's a lot of research that says about the male influence and mentorship and who we connect as, you know, our growing up our heroes, I believe we're now seeing that harvest now from the 2000s and the the focus on, you know, those um those men who are in our community. That's why it's important for men to stand up in the community who were pouring into volunteering at games and being a part of students' lives. We're now seeing that outcome, that harvest, where those young men now are questioning the existence. Is it real? What is this? And the Holy Spirit is revealing to them, yes, it's real, and now they're flocking to a place to answer that question, which is the local church. Now, the challenge is gonna be how we respond to them because they're not gonna come in in three-piece suits. Um, and some of them will come in with tats and earrings and both ears, uh, and like my son has twists, the long locks, and all that. So they're not gonna look how we look because the old school traditional, we had to have a certain look in order for us to be saved. But how we respond to their heart posture is what's gonna make a difference. Um, and I think also, too, we're in a season of where in the church there's a lot of us older millennials who are raised in it, are circling back, separating that man-made tradition from what actually is, who we actually want to worship. Like, I don't want to just be in church. I actually want to experience God for myself. And so now it's not uncommon to see a pastor with a sleeve tap, right? But his heart is pure, and people, young men are connecting with that. Because now you see me uh, because I'm not in a three-piece suit, but you see me for who I am. And they're showing that God can change people. And we're transparent with our sin. Like we went out and we did things that we shouldn't have done. And we're saying, don't do as I say, not as I do. But if you do, here's what the outcome is, and here's why. A lot of us were told, just don't do this, don't do this, you're going to hell, like I said earlier. But now we're able to say, hey, here's why you shouldn't do this. Here's why you should do that, according to scripture, and here's how I walked it out, and here's how my faith was strengthened in that regard. So, and that's and it's a beautiful thing because we need more men in our churches.

SPEAKER_01 52:10

So, what I think I hear you saying is that the clarity has given even more way for conviction, particularly of young men. I love that. I love that. I I I love the your theological perspective, and so I want to ask you this question as well. You know, because you shared your beginning and have seen from a historical standpoint that bivocational pastoring is not anything new that's been around. But I want to ask you now, what do you think that the church has gotten wrong for years related to the idea of the bivocational pastor, and what can we do modern day to correct that so?

SPEAKER_00 52:47

Yeah. Um, that that's a good question. So it's biblical. Paul was a tent maker. Um, and the Bible says, give honor to those who preach and teach to you, right? Um, that a pastor, preacher, teacher is worthy of the reward. So it's biblical to honor those who preach and teach to us. Um, I think modern church, um, we've gotten so advanced that when we have a bivocational pastor, we just assume that the other side will take care of what is needed. Churches have to start somewhere. Uh again, I'm a business professor, uh, so there's a business of ministry as well, too. Um I tell my church all the time, like, uh the the going market rate for an executive pastor, you can't afford me if we actually put it on paper. But because I'm called to this, I'm not looking for a salary, and I also got to be sensitive to what church size we are and our church budget and all those things above. But I think the modern church, the business side of ministry has to take into account where we're at, what does it look like biblically to honor the man or woman of God within reason, right? In addition to, I think there needs to be a conversation of expectation as we're in by vocational. Like, so uh I interviewed for a senior pastor job uh years ago. It was a 500-member church, uh, went through the process, which was very healthy. Um, and God revealed that it wasn't time, that was not it. Um, and my thing was I wasn't gonna stop my profess my teaching. I needed to continue to do that. Uh, it was a full-time salary, but I need to continue to do that, particularly because my kids go to TCU for free. So I can't give that benefit up.

SPEAKER_01 54:35

That's a blessing, that's a blessing, it is.

SPEAKER_00 54:36

It's a blessing, right? And so there was kind of contractual talk on what amount of time I would give based on that full-time salary and if my attention would be elsewhere, which I think was a legitimate conversation. So I think churches have to have a conversation. What is the bivocational role on the worldly side, right? What is that profession? You know, is it flexible? What is the attention to give, or vacation dates? Um, and um, what is the actual number that the church is comfortable doing, which won't break the church, but also says, hey, we honor you, the pay frequency, is there a vacation stipend? Is there a technology stipend? Like all those things. And I think the answer to your question, the short way is let's talk about it. Here's where we're at. Here's our budget. We need to do something. What can we do on both ends and meet in the middle? Because it is biblical, but how can we meet in the middle? Now, obviously, if I'm running 10 people a Sunday, I don't need to be full time because we can't even make the light bill. That's irresponsible. And I don't think a true man of God would want to do that. But how can we have conversations to where we we stair-step it, right? We start here and we grow from there. Or I know some churches who connect back to some metrics. You get 10% of the giving uh each Sunday. So that way, if we run 500 and uh we we make a million dollars, you get 10% of that. But if we don't do well, you don't do. So it's connected there as well. But also some goals as well. We want to see some growth, we want to see some new ministries established, we want to see some leadership development, but all of those different ways of going about it, but we got to conversate about it. So I think for too long, historically, we started out, we had a pastor parsonage, we had full-time pastors, 60s, 70s, and 80s. It was actual full-time role, and then that shifted to where we did more by vocational. Um, and now I think we got to swing back to find a healthy balance and conversate what does it look like based on the budget? Because if the money is not there, the money's not there. And so I think that the conversation piece, let's talk about it. And I think oftentimes in church we don't because, oh, it's about money. And as a pastor, I'm gonna be perceived as, you know, as a prosperity gospel preacher, so I don't want to talk about money. But then as a church, you know, I don't want to talk about it because we can't really afford to pay him. He preaches well, he leads well, he teaches well, he's always here, he's faithful, but we can't meet him. All we can do is $50. And so we turn around and go away versus come together to talk about where it can meet in the middle.

SPEAKER_01 57:01

Yeah, in 2026, there are definitely various options that are out there from housing allowances if you can't do a full salary to travel, uh, conferences, anything that you can do to show that there's honor and appreciation. I appreciate you sharing that because uh our our listeners shouldn't know if they don't know that there is a business aspect to ministry, and that definitely uh comes into play. I want to ask you now, as we get ready to go to our lightning round in our time together. This has been so rich. I can, you know, I could talk to you on and on. But I want to ask you as it relates to, again, that perhaps that young pastor, church leader that's watching, what's the one I hate to just say one, but what would you say is the one, the most important one or two lessons or truth that you need to take with you as it relates to understanding the bivocational ministry.

SPEAKER_00 57:51

Yeah, that's that's good. Um I'd say two things. One is if you're called to preach, preach. Um there's a difference between pastoring and preaching. Um not all preachers are pastors, and not all pastors are preachers. There's a difference. Some of us are gifted with both, uh, because there's the shepherding and the pastor's heart, but then there's the preaching exegesis, the teaching. Um, and so what you're called to do, do that. That's why we got turns around like associate pastor or teaching pastor or executive pastor. Uh traditionally, executive pastors are just really good in business and organization, and they run the business side of the ministry, don't necessarily do the shepherding, so to speak. Um, teaching pastors, like they just do the Bible studies or some sermons, but they don't do the actual pastoring. But those of us who have both hats, teaching, preaching, and pastoring, so we shepherd and pastor, but also preach and teach, um know what you're called to do specifically and do that. That's that's the first thing. Um I have no business trying to run the choir. That's not my calling, that's not my gifting. As one of as the executive pastor, um, the second in command, so to speak, I have vision. Um, I can provide context around the budget for the choir and the business and the ministry operation of the choir. I have some thoughts around kind of what we're singing and how this should go. And I share that. But the music minister who's called to that and who we've empowered as a leader, they're to take all that and make it happen in ministry. But I shouldn't be have my hands involved in it because I'm called at the high level to shepherd pastor and to preach and teach the gospel. Um, so that's the first thing. Second thing is I think, and it's gonna sound kind of tongue-in-cheek, but enjoy the journey. Um, like times when I'm I'm tired, I'm frustrated, I'm lost, I'm scratching my head. It's something about preaching on a Sunday morning that invigorates me, even if nobody's there. I've got a text that I've really connected with, and I've got three points and great illustrations. And I just I love that. Um that's the preaching part. But even the pastoring part, I'll go and I'll have an interaction with a sister or brother and pray with them, or they'll come to me and say, Hey, you said something in this sermon I took notes and it changed my life. And I'm like, thank you, Lord. That that that enjoy it and have fun from God has given you a gift that He don't give to everybody. And so, Lord, I thank you for this gift and I enjoy it, and I have fun, and you know, I'm having conversations with uh some older pastors now who talk about, you know, I'm gonna retire and all that. We don't actually retire from calling. We just do it differently in different seasons. So I may shift out of being a professor and full-time senior pastor, and then at some point shift towards, you know, a seminary professor or something like that. But I don't retire, you don't retire from calling. We don't get done with this until we see him face to face. And so those are the two things that I would share. Definitely no, do what you're called to do specifically, and then enjoy the journey and have fun doing it because it's it's nothing like it. The best thing about ministry is the preaching, the people, and the worst thing about ministry is the preaching and the people.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:23

I would just say amen. So I thank you for your your wisdom in that. I want to ask you what I would call our hump day help because we we launched this episode on the second Wednesdays of each month. So, based on advice that you've been given throughout the years, what's the greatest piece of advice you receive as a bivocational pastor in being a bi vocational pastor?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:51

If you don't know Jesus for yourself, how can you tell others about Jesus? At your job or at your church? And and and then and then he walked off and got in his Cadillac and left as my childhood pastor. And so if I don't know him for myself, how can I tell people on my job? How can I tell people in my church about him? So that means I need to know him for myself before I try to tell somebody else. So that's one of those old nuggets that the old three-piece black suit uh Pastor Eddie O'Dell told me. Yes, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, House of Prayer Baptist Church. I'll never forget it. If you don't know Jesus for yourself, how can you tell him on your job and how you can tell him in the church?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:33

So I just have a few quick lightning round questions for you. So, what's what's a book other than the Bible? We know the Bible, we get in the word, word gets into you, that you would recommend for any bivocational pastor, church leader.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:46

Uh, what I'm reading right now is The Autopsy of a Dead Church, which is a good one. Um, just to kind of stay at the forefront and recognize trends. Church is still an organization, so we'll see ebbs and flows and how culture kind of impacts our people. Um, but just different things to be mindful of. What does marketing look like? What is, you know, uh traditional preaching versus uh exegetical preaching, different types of just different things. So the autopsy of deceased church is what I I lean towards where because I'm I'm an org culture person, and that's what I teach. So I also look for the culture of the church and how the organization flourishes uh from that. So any kind of stuff. Yeah, any kind of culture or business of the church, I'm always reading to understand better how the organization flows.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:32

Okay. And finish this sentence for me. The 40-40 life is not for everyone, but it's for fill in the blank.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:41

The 40-40 life is not for everyone, but it's for the one who God has truly called to pastor his people, both in the church and in their profession. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:54

And finally, if someone were listening to this now and they're holding on to uh both worlds and having attention about uh possibly should I let one go, what would you say to them at this point in time, Todd?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:10

Definitely seek the Lord, pray, fast, seek the Lord, um, and see what season you're in to do that. Um, because sometimes the season is now uh because the church is pulling you more. Um and I want to be clear to those listening and following along is that God always provides. Sometimes we stay longer than we were supposed to. Um God always provides, he set a provision, but we can't access the provision until we let what he needs us to let go of. So be spiritually in tune to that. Is this season now for me to let one go and fully commit? And if not, stay put, but don't move until God tells you to move because he has provision. He has promised in his word that he will take care of his people. And biblically, we sing first fruits were given to Levitical priests, right? Bring your tithe to the storehouse. God's going to take care of his people. Make no mistake. But in the season, is it time to give one up or is it time to stay put? Um, and that's something that you gotta evaluate and pray to God and be led by the Spirit of. Don't get out here and put yourself in a situation and challenge God now, Lord, you said you provide. Because the Lord said don't move yet. But if he says move, move, but if he says stay put, do it with grace and be sensitive to the Spirit when He gives you instruction to move.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:22

I love it as well. Well, it's been great having you on, Dr. Chapman. I appreciate you being generous with your time, with your wisdom, and we it with your insight. I love what God is doing with you in the church and what he's doing with you in the university as well. Uh I I love your even your um, I heard about your proverbs from Dr. Chapman that you share with your class. Just another way that you can infuse. So I want to ask you this as we close. If people want to follow your work, whether from an academic perspective or on the church side, how can how can we get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:54

So the church I serve at is Life Changer Faith Christian Fellowship, um, lifechangerfaith.com. We're deep in the heart of Frisco, 7th of Maine. We're in the oldest building in Frisco. It was first Baptist Frisco for 75 years. We bought it, renovated it back to church, uh 110-year-old building. So deep in the heart of Frisco, Life ChangerFaith.com. That's where I'm serving currently. Um then I'm on LinkedIn. I'm not on any social media. I'm an old millennial. I don't have time for that. But LinkedIn is the best way to connect. Um just Dr. Kenneth Chapman Jr. on LinkedIn. And then again, I serve at TCU's where I teach in the Neely School of Business. So I'm fine with you. You can Google me. Uh you can definitely find me if you just Google me. And I'm an open book. And I know a lot of people say that, but I believe in connection and mentorship because freely I receive, freely I give. So if there's anybody who wants to connect, please do so. And what I've been given, I will give away uh because I'm in I'm in the business of making sure God's kingdom is advanced. And I believe He's doing it through hearts and minds of men and women who love him and are called to Him, particularly the Bivocational Pastor.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:55

Thank you so much, my brother. We'll have all If this episode landed with you the way I believe it will, then share it with the 4040 pastor right now before anything gets your attention. I want to share with you that uh today we heard from Dr. Kenneth Chapman, uh, and he shared with us that uh the 4040 life is not a compromise. Uh-huh. It is not a consolation prize for pastors who couldn't go full time. It's a calling with a shape, uh, a structure, uh, a theology and fruit that the church desperately needs. In episode three, we're going to get honest about something most 40-40 pastors avoid. What your congregation actually thinks about your business life. We're going to talk about transparency, trust, and the conversations you need to be having, but probably are. If nobody told you today that you're a 40-40 pastor and you make a difference, I want to tell you that your calling is not slit, it's whole. So subscribe today, and I'll see you in episode three.