"Kids nowadays wouldn't know what a canal was" (E1)

Underneath the city of Salford lies a canal, buried since 1961. Some of Salford's residents remember it vividly. Some of them have no idea it's there. And some of them want to unearth it and put boats back on it.

In this oral history podcast, we’re going to hear from 100 Salford residents speaking in their own words about their memories of Salford’s canals, waterways, rivers and boats.

Each week, we'll hear from a different selection of Salfordians telling their own stories. We'll hear about playing, working, falling in the canals, enjoying the peace and quiet of the canals, and for some people, seeing it disappear.

This week, we start by looking at a topic that came up time and time again–the generational divide between people who can still remember the canal from when they were young, and people who were born long after the canal closed. And as you'll hear, they have some quite different perspectives.

Then we're going to hear about another set of contrasting stories–from people who love a good walk along the canal, and people who have fallen in them.

And finally we'll hear about a local Salford hero who became renowned for saving people from the waterways.

This project was created by Walk the Plank and the Manchester Bury and Bolton Canal Society with Whose Art Whose Culture funding from Salford CVS and the GMCA.

Recorded and produced by David McFarlane.

Music by David McFarlane and Ugnė Makselytė. 

Transcript

0:09

Welcome to the Hidden Canal Podcast. Hello, I'm David McFarlane and this is the Hidden Canal Podcast. Over the next few weeks, we're going to be hearing from over 100 residents of the city

of Salford to find out what they think and how they feel about one thing: 0:30

canals. And I can hear some of you out there asking the question, "David, of all the things to ask people in Salford about, why canals?" You could have asked them about Coronation Street, or LS Lowry, or A Taste of Honey, or Dirty Old Town. Or if you want to ask them about a body of water, what about the River Irwell? that's a perfectly good body of water to talk about right there but what a lot of people don't know is that underneath Salford is a canal hidden since 1961. Work first started on the canal in 1791 built to transport coal and other goods between Bolton and Bury and Manchester and Salford. But as railways replaced canals and the coal mines began to close the canal fell into disrepair and And in 1961, much of the canal was closed. Most of the canal is now buried, but you can still see traces of it underneath Salford. Some people I spoke to referred to it as a ghost canal, and there is a movement to bring the canal back. The Manchester Boat and Bury Canal Society want to repair and restore the canal, refill it with water, and get boats back on it. But we'll hear all about that in a few weeks. I went around Salford and I spoke to people in the library, in the shopping centre, in the museum and art gallery, and of course by what is left of the canal, and I asked people to take time out of whatever they were up to and tell me about their memories and stories of canals. And it turns out they had a lot to say. So each week we'll hear from a different selection of Salford's residents speaking about different themes related to canals. This week, I thought we'd start by looking at one particular topic that came up time and time again when I spoke to people. And that is the generational divide between people who can still remember the canal from when they were young and people who were born long after the canal closed. And as you'll hear, they've got some quite different perspectives. Then we're going to hear another set of contrasting stories from people who love a good walk along a canal and people who have fallen in them. And actually often this is the same person. And finally, we'll hear about a local Salford hero who became renowned for saving people from the waterways. I'm going to go quiet now and let them speak, and I'll see you on the other side.

Speaker 2: 3:01

So my attitudes are a generational thing. I can juxtapose how they were to what they've become. a lot of the 20, 30 even 40 year olds can only look at things how they are now you can't juxtapose it how they were they've not seen the change and I have, I've seen the change

Speaker 3: 3:26

I think it's good for any sort of person why do you think that right like? I've just seen it it's good for the kids to play at it's good for adults and older people

Speaker 4: 3:38

don't forget I'm 85, she's 84, yeah. And we're out all the time, but I love the man, Bob. I did, honestly, love.

Speaker 5: 3:47

It's like an hour's a very old kind of thing. People, like old people maybe, or even kids, they might just remember seeing their parents go on there, or have memories, or might even own one, through the generations, just something. Nostalgia.

Speaker 6: 4:02

You know, and it's a shame now that the kids of today, they don't have any of this. It's like we used to go on the Norfolk Broads for holidays, Dad used to love fishing, we'd be playing, you know. And we don't see children doing that. And I bet most children now wouldn't know what a canal was.

Speaker 3: 4:20

What? Do you know canals? They're man-made, aren't they? Hang on.

Speaker 7: 4:28

Was a river or a canal man-made? A canal's a man-made river.

Speaker 8: 4:32

A canal's a man-made river.

Speaker 9: 4:34

They're like... I know it's water. I feel like, I think it's a bit, looks a bit like a river, but it's for boats.

Speaker 3: 4:44

Wait, are we getting recorded? Oh, right. Sorry. I actually, I probably didn't start here. Um, right. Um, got people sleeping in boats. Oh, yeah. Was it built in, wait, was it built before the 1800s? Yeah. Was it there during more?

Speaker 6: 5:00

You know, if you were to say a canal, oh, they wouldn't be interested in playing because too much on the games are I think like when more because they're not commonly known like because lots of people don't really know about him and but I think what's the more commonly known we might have put more like people living on canals as they're cheaper than houses and like they're just right so I think

Speaker 3: 5:35

canals should be actually advanced and what's the word heightened because not heightened what i think there should be more of them because i think it helps especially especially old people i think it helps them get out the house and just gives them a gives them a very scenery sort of walk i'm enjoying it's like it's like it's like a place to relax and it kind of brings our Salford community out for like more atmosphere, better atmosphere and that's what I think about Canals. I'm just saying for gentlemen

Speaker 6: 6:14

there, you don't see children playing out I know it's the world we live in but where we lived on some flats, it was like a community and we used to play kit camp and we'd be all over the flats a group of us and wanted to get back and kick the can, you know, and you'd win. You don't do that, you don't see children skipping. If you gave a girl a pair of skipping up, she wouldn't have to do with them. You know, you don't see boys, very rarely see them playing football.

Speaker 7: 6:49

I remember this rope swing that was next to one. And I remember I was about 10 years old and we were walking down the canal and I got on this rope swing. And it had been there for like longer than I'd been alive. And the rope had snapped and I'd been like an inch from falling in.

Speaker 6: 7:08

You don't see them like... When I was growing up, there was what they call a bogey. Lads used to make it. It was a plank of wood with wheels on either side. And I remember having to go to my grandma's one day and having a Sunday best on. And the boy that lived, one of our neighbours said, do you want to come on our bogey? Do you want to come and have a go on the bogey? And my mum said, don't you get dirty. I was saying, no, I'm only going on Arthur's bogey. And there was a compound where the lads used to play football and there was a big puddle in it, a massive big puddle. And he said, I know, let's pretend we're on a ship and we're going across the water. So we sat at the front, I sat at the back, we hit a brick in the middle of this great big puddle. I ended up putting both my feet in this water, being absolutely filthy and having to stay home all afternoon. You know, but they don't do that now. Like my husband, they used to go, he lived up near the old Salford Royal Hospital, and they used to go catching rats near the canal. You just don't see it. You know, they're just like near the canal. They used to like water rats, he said, and sometimes they're like that big. I used to go and catch them because they were doing things that they shouldn't have been doing, these rats. But now you don't see children at all playing out or having fun. And I think that's why there's a lot now for unhealthy children. You know, we know it's not a safe world, but even if it was like a family outing. I mean, when my daughter was born, many a time, me and her dad would say, she's got to watch the boats. And if you go to, in Winton, up near where the farmer's arms is, there's a canal there. Have you ever been up that way? There's a canal there, and the boats are on it. But it's nice to just sit on a wall, and there's a pub facing where you can go and get a glass of orange juice and watch the canal. We used to love it when it was nice and hot, you know, going up there and watching the boats. But they don't want to do that now. We used to be out all the time, all the time. to walk all over and then when I was about say 14 and I joined a hiking club local secondary school we used to get the train I mean then it seemed as though it was a long way but probably it was only Disney and Haywood we used to walk all over the hills you know you went out without any fear

Speaker 8: 9:50

In lockdown, I used to go on walks to the canal with my mum, my nan and my dog. And one time, my dog barked at a goose, and it started chasing me, and I got really scared, and it had babies, and it wasn't ice.

Speaker 11: 10:05

Obviously, we're near your mate Tom, and we grew up in Macclesfield, and obviously there's a big canal there, and it runs through Bollington. My grandma lived about 200 metres away from the canal. so we used to spend a lot of time when I was with my grandma and some of the holidays and stuff up and down the canal near Bollington and I can remember when I was really young, a really cold winter and my dad took me up there and obviously it was frozen, solid and I can remember standing at the side and finding stones and stuff to try and chuck in the water and break the ice up with the rocks and yeah, yeah, it was great.

Speaker 12: 10:47

There were some where I used to live actually in in Preston we weren't far from the canal So that was my default walk to go down there and there was a nice park at the end It's something that I quite miss actually because I don't I don't know now when it's duckling season It used to just be default you'd walk out all the time and they suddenly start popping up and it was amazing But I don't have that where I am now I think it's a really good place

Speaker 13: 11:12

If you just want to get outdoors and if you need to like Like, if you need to take your dog on a walk, like, a really long walk round, it takes about, say, maybe an hour to get round the whole wetland. So it's a good way to take a dog out. If you wanted to ride your bike you could take your bike round it because it's different routes you could take on your bike.

Speaker 14: 11:46

I've seen canals before but I think we walked my nan's dog on that like near a canal once. Well I don't think I've ever like, I've seen them before but apart from that I've never been near a canal.

Speaker 5: 12:03

I've not been on one, I've walked alongside it though.'Cause I remember I used to go with my Nan, and then we used to feed the ducks there, and there'd be these little boats on the side as well, and we'd walk down. And I also remember fishing there as well. Fishing?'Cause my parents met this boy, and then he taught me how to fish again,'cause I learned it previously, but I kind of forgot. And then we would end up getting the bait on the hook, and then just getting little fish.

Speaker 6: 12:32

I say to my husband now, I can't believe that when I was at school, I used to walk something like a Sydney Park called the dog entry. And it was this big, long entry, not a soul about, and walk from top all the way to the bottom to get home without any fear of ever being attacked. And that was in the winter. You know, it's such a shame now. It's a sad world now. You know, everything that's going on. And things are not changing for the better.

Speaker 3: 13:06

I like them. I love them. Very tasty. Everyone goes to canals. Yeah. What are you... My granddad really actually likes walking down the canal with his dog. Really, actually? Yeah. And I think... I know it's not allowed, but I think a lot of people like to jump in there and have fun. To be fair. No, you should do that.

Speaker 6: 13:25

Years ago, when me and my sister were growing up, we used to go to my auntie's. And because we lived in flats where she lived with our fields, it was like a different country. And there used to be a canal there. We used to watch the boats going up and down the Bridgewater Canal. And then there was a stream where we used to play. And there were pipes in the stream where we used to walk along. these hooks like sheds garden sheds but we used to think they were our houses and we lived in this you know and then we went used to go to an auntie's in Herefordshire in a little place called Shobden and there was canals there where we could even you could even set your clothes off on our shoes and socks and paddle you know. That canal was a forbidden area when I was a child I was the oldest of four we used to come to Peel Park with my younger brothers and sister and my mother don't go near the canal she used to say that canal is bottomless and by which in so deep if you fell in you'd never get out and that was a kind of deterrent well as you go yeah as you go

Speaker 16: 14:41

over the Manchester Ship Canal where the old bridge is there's another bridge near the Victoria warehouse with a canal going underneath there and we used to call that throstles nest and we used to swim in that and playing that all the time and if you got caught by the police or anything like that apparently it never happened to me they used to take you for a stomach pump a stomach pump towards that that was i think it was just a fright and you're off swimming in there but the amount of times i come out with rashies and things like that was unbelievable. But we used to swim in there, me and my friends all the time, because we thought that was the cleanest place, but obviously it wasn't. You could see the oil on top, actually, we shouldn't have done it. I have vague... I don't know it, and I was talking to somebody here, just if they knew, but there's an area of the canal that's known as the Dolly. Now, I wondered where it was, and I've asked, and nobody really could help me, but I found out that as the canal come out of Crescent Wharf at the back of the it went under Oldfield Road and it dropped in a lock in order that the level of water was sufficiently low to get it under the railway so it moved under Oldfield Road and it went to this large square rectangular chamber and the boat it dropped in a lock into these and then turned sharply at right angle right under the railway and went down towards Middlewood Locks. And that basin there was known as the Dolly. And I never went to it as a child, but I've heard of it since. Apparently it was an area where children used to go and stand on the wall above and jump down into it, which would have been... You don't know what's in it, do you? I didn't do it. I didn't even know where the Dolly was. It's now completely filled and built over a little industrial estate on it. That's the Dolly.

Speaker 7: 16:39

I think they're dangerous. They should put fences or something. Like, not fences, just gates by the canal, because loads of dogs jump in them. People fall. We had a boy in the little street we lived in in Lowbroughton. There was a boy, they always referred to him as Frankie, can't think of his second name, and he fell in the river. His grandmother lived further up near the cliff. And we used to get reminded, because we lived very close to the river, the street where I lived. Everything in law brought was close to the river and it was a deterrent. My mother and my grandmother used to say don't go near the river, Jeannie Green Teeth will get here. Don't go near the canal, it's bottomless. And I was a child, bottomless, it's very, very deep. I didn't realise it was three feet deep, but that was my mother's deterrent. Jeannie Green Teeth was a creature who lived under the bridge on Frederick Road that came out and pulled children into the river if they went too near.

Speaker 17: 17:35

I don't really bother them because they can be a bit dangerous. I've known a few people to be getting drowned in some of the canals, yeah. Yeah, drowned near... I was in it, Neil Hankey Park. The canal on there. I remember someone drowned in kids, yeah.

Speaker 7: 17:56

I almost fell in one. I don't know, I just wasn't looking where I was going and, like, the half was really thin.

Speaker 18: 18:05

The only waterway we used to go to and swim in it was Drinkwater Park.

Speaker 17: 18:10

Was it?

Speaker 18: 18:11

Yeah. Which is up Longer Road South, up towards Prestwich that way. And that was great, but it was a really good place to hide, to wag school, because you feel like you're in the countryside properly, don't you? It's so...

Speaker 16: 18:25

Yeah. It just takes you away from it.

Speaker 18: 18:27

Yeah, it's lovely, and I still go there now.

Speaker 19: 18:30

I've only ever fallen once in a canal. That was when I was on the Frank-Gothering Canal. first time out and then we'd hired an arrowboat and my brother had a boat and my son had a boat but we stopped at this lock and there was a pub right alongside everybody said, lunch, food, drink and left me, my four year old daughter on the boat, adrift. Well, to get us to the side, I went running down the side of the boat, slipped, and then to...

Speaker 18: 19:11

I was just thinking, I don't know if it was last year that we were trying to put a barrier up on the edge of the canal in different areas because there were so many people falling in and they wanted to help protect people from falling in. I don't agree with that at all. I don't want anyone... I want everyone to be safe, of course. But I think having the barrier, even just a railing, would close it off too much. It wouldn't feel as peaceful and relaxing if they did that. I don't know whether that was in Manchester they were doing, they were looking at doing that, or here, I'm not too sure. But, yeah, I'm glad they did it.

Speaker 20: 19:51

Yeah, my brother fell in a canal. He used to live near a canal. He was riding his bike home and hit his head off a sign thing and had passed out and fell into the water with his bike and he would have died if this man wasn't walking past him and would have seen him. He was in hospital for a week with a concussion. Basically, when I was about... When I was about 10, we went to this community festival and it was down a big hill and at the bottom of the hill is a nice big canal and on these canal barges were parked up by the side and they had like flowers and basically like little shops on these barges, open stalls and shops. And so all my family is clambering onto the barge, like walking on, so I just happily follow them in, not looking where I'm going at all. And the grass is overgrown in the gap between the bank and the barge and I just stepped straight onto the long grass and went straight in down between the bank and the barge. And if it wasn't for my mum grabbing me by my hand as it flailed up in the air, could have just slipped straight under that barge and gone missing. Ten-year-old me drowning in a local canal. It would have been a different end to my life, definitely. And, yeah, they just scooped me back out, and I just shivered and walked back to the car and got changed. Still hate plant shops to this day. No, I'm really messing. but yeah so that's my story about falling in a canal

Speaker 2: 21:27

it was the rite of passage for a youngster there was a log going from one side of the canal to the other with a 60 foot drop underneath and to show your masculinity you had to walk across it I couldn't swim at the time I must have been a madman but they dare you, the lads and if you didn't do it they'd kick you out of the gang that was one of the local dares that it was satisfying i can't believe that i did that i was only 12 13 14 at the time but nightmare and that was at the very very far end near oldfield road where there's two or three sets of locks and it goes down about 60 feet into another section and i thought did i really walk across the map the mad things you do though when you're young you're climbing trees and swinging across valleys and what have you

Speaker 22: 22:29

about the Titanic that's when I started my first started being balanced. Because when I'm riding a boat I always feel like it's going to sing. Because once I was in America I was riding about and the man said don't fall off or there might be sharks in the water. That's when I started getting even more terrified. Once I was on a canal boat, I noticed both of us, and her mum, she dropped a cup in the thing and then we had to get like a stick that was on the canal and then like hook it out. Yeah, and everyone was panicking like, "What can we use?"

Speaker 23: 23:17

The Urwell was a much dangerous place. As you know, a guy spent his life saving people out of the hero. What's the name of that thumb on the hero? We were both suffering with mild dementia. But never once did he hear anybody pulling them out of the very own. My son, when he goes down in the Keys, jumps off the Red Bridge into the water. I had lost a mate many years ago called Tommy Caffrey. He dived off the top, never came up, because the canal was shaped like that. And in the bottom was all the... He was only two pennies at the neck end. The seniors in St Joseph used to roll him up in the ball and throw him to each other, honestly, through that. And he saw this pigeon he wanted. And people must have stood there and watched him walk up the bridge and jumper.

Speaker 18: 24:21

A guy who saved multiple people, Mark Adams. And there was a pub named after him.

Speaker 16: 24:29

And there's a bridge named after him as well.

Speaker 18: 24:32

Hundreds of people he saved.

Speaker 16: 24:34

Yeah, he's famous for life saving.

Speaker 18: 24:39

Yeah, it was about, was it a few hundred people maybe?

Speaker 16: 24:42

Yeah, it was quite.

Speaker 18: 24:44

But there was a pub, and it's quite ironic really when you think about it, there was a pub named after him. that was built on the side of the canal, just on the border between Manchester and Salford. But that pub kept flooding, and you had to close it down. I mean, it was open for years and years and years, and we all used to go in it, but then, obviously, the floods, and in the end, they just couldn't keep it going, could they? No, no.

Speaker 16: 25:08

Yeah, it was like a... I can't remember what his occupation was. I was reading about it the other night, and I can't remember what I was reading. But it was, it come up as a photograph of where he was born, where he was based and where he used to save, save the lives. I think, I don't know what his job was, but yeah, it basically was just, he did become like a lifesaver.

Speaker 18: 25:34

Yeah, it's worth looking into. Mark Addy.

Speaker 16: 25:37

A-W-D-Y. And like, there's a bridge named after him, like I say, from East Oddsall Lane, over to Hume, over the canal.

Speaker 18: 25:49

I'm going to do some more research on him now because it's made me question I've read about him so many times but I can't remember what he did and why he ended up saving so many people why was he always there? Well, that's us done for this week thanks for listening and if you have a canal story you'd like to share with us you can leave us a voice message at www.speakpipe.com forward slash hidden canal This project was created by Walk the Plank and the Manchester Bolton and Bury Canal Society with Who's Art Who's Culture funding from Salford CVS and the GMCA. It was produced and recorded by me, David McFarlane, with music from me and Ugne Maxalite. See you next time.