Pastor Peter's Testimony

In this episode, we sit down with Pastor Peter Rufener for a deeply personal, wide-ranging conversation about the winding road that led him into full-time ministry. Peter takes us all the way back to the beginning, sharing the defining moments, unexpected detours, and critical turning points of his life before the pulpit.

Whether you are seeking your own purpose, curious about the realities of a pastoral life, or just love a powerful story of faith and perseverance, Peter’s journey offers incredible insight into how a lifetime of experiences shapes a calling.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:09

What's up everyone? Welcome to the Testimony Table Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

The podcast where it's real stories, real struggles, and real miracles. How everyday people share how Jesus has changed their lives forever.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

I'm Matt.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

And I'm Brandon, and we're both your hosts, and we're seriously glad you're here today.

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This show is all about giving God the glory, telling the truth, and bringing hope to people who need it most.

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In our show, we can lean heavy into a theme of recovery because Jesus doesn't just forgive, He restores, He heals, He delivers, He can pull you out of anything: addiction, depression, anxiety, brokenness, shame.

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He can turn your mess into a message and your pain into purpose.

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We believe Jesus is still moving today, and testimonies still have power.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

And we are here to fulfill the mission he gave us, the great commission, to go, to tell, and to make disciples. So pull up a seat, lean in, and get ready. Because your faith is about to become stronger than you ever thought possible.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

Alright, let's get into it.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Perfect. I'm the way you clap that thing. Yeah, I feel like you've got to be a good one. I've done it before. Yeah. High caliber.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Alright, here we are.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Alright, so let me open in prayer and then great. Heavenly Father, Lord, we thank you for this day, Lord. And we thank you so much that Pastor Peter is able to join the show. And we just dedicate this show to you. We dedicate the podcast to you, Lord. And we thank you that you're present with us and present in our hearts. Lord, I pray you just speak through Pastor Peter, Lord, and that we can further your kingdom by his testimony and this show. And we love you so much, Lord. And all these things we pray in your name, Jesus. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Amen. Well, guys, a privilege uh to be here with you both. I have listened to the first couple podcasts uh of each of your stories, and just powerful. And just being vulnerable with your story and sharing it. I just uh it's just good stuff. And I think if you hear my story, you'll understand I I think that's one of the biggest things that we do when we entrust other people with our stories. Um so it it it's helped me get to know both of you a a little bit better uh and understanding your story and and just how God has continued to pursue you and just do what he does best to transform and to change us. So I'm excited to be on here. First time I've ever done a podcast. So that's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 3:07

Just keep keep that keep that in mind. Um well let me just say for the listeners, this is Pastor Peter Rufner from Cornerstone Alliance Church. Uh, this is the same church that Matt and I go to. So um great church, teaching from the great people. Yeah, teaching straight from the Bible. So if you don't have a church, Cornerstone Alliance Church out on Route 4 here in Marion, I think uh cool Pastor will Pastor Peter will greet you with open arms, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Yeah, I will. And as we go through the rest of the podcast, you can call me Peter. If you call me Pastor Peter, I feel like I have to behave a little bit. Okay. Um just for the introduction. That's good. That's good. That's good. Well, I I want to share a little bit of my story. And uh I think everybody has a story. I I grew up in Lima, Ohio. Uh probably was about five or six years old. My my parents uh had not really, they'd grown up with an exposure to church, but had never really uh committed their lives to Christ. And uh in their late 20s, uh they found Christ and it just transformed and changed them. And so all of a sudden went from, you know, Saturday, Sunday mornings watching cartoons to uh we're at church and all the time at church. We were uh there on Sunday mornings, there on Sunday nights, there on Wednesday nights, and and all of that. In fact, uh it was in that season that my parents decided to take us out of public school and put us in Christian school. I I think in many ways they had not been exposed to all of that. So they wanted to, uh lack of better words, give us uh what they felt they missed out on uh of knowing Jesus at a young age. So any opportunity uh to do that, they just did that. And and I remember growing up at church, and if you were to know me, and if people in the church that I grew up in, the the adults, they uh uh I gave them a lot of opportunity uh for growth in the sense that I was not always the most compliant, uh, did not behave, uh, all of those things. But I I remember early on just this idea that Jesus came and died for me and um forgave me of my sins. No, no one had to convince me, uh, even at a young age that I had done some wrong things. I I kind of knew that uh type of thing growing up and just fell in love with that. Um, very connected to the church. Um that those middle school, high school years for me were hard. I I think those are those stages in life where uh for me it felt like um I didn't make good choices, wasn't really sure the right direction, I felt very much alone, as if there wasn't any guidance in that. And as I'm growing up in middle school and high school, it was my junior year, and the school that I attended was having this spiritual uh emphasis week, and they brought in all of these speakers. And I remember really clearly at one of those, uh, the guy just talking about called a ministry. And something happened inside of me. I don't know if I can really describe exactly what that was, but I I I would say I I leaned forward and like this, something's happening. I I'm interested in this, and and I believe that God called me. I also believe that that my desire to help people, uh maybe, maybe to uh be for someone what I wish someone would have been for me during that time period in my life, uh, the kind of that desire to go into youth ministry, and um it just was part of that stage of life. I thought I actually thought I was gonna um live the rest of my life in Lima, Ohio, and be a school teacher and a coach. I mean, that that was the pathway that I was on. That's what I wanted to do. Um, and then God just said, Hey, I want you to trust me uh with ministry. Didn't know what that meant. Uh a little bit, I was scared of that, to be honest with you, because the idea of moving away from Lima and my family was was really challenging. Uh, in the midst of that, I should rewind a little bit. In the midst of that, I met Heidi when she was 14 years old, and I was 15 years old. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. So we're we're high school sweethearts. Just I I remember the first time I met her. It was at a softball field, and our team was playing against another team, and she was sitting off to the side, and uh I I was 15 years old, and you know, it didn't know any better. Like, this girl is beautiful. Yeah, I'm gonna go swinging for the fences. I'm probably gonna strike out, but I'm gonna go swinging for the fences. And I went over and uh started engaging in a conversation, and she laughed at my jokes. Oh, and and she smiled. Yeah, she she smiled, and and I mean, I was just at that moment like, oh my word. I mean, she is amazing type of thing. And and and so we began a relationship uh through a lot of different, I'm shortening this story, but through a lot of different uh things. And so uh Heidi in that same time period really felt like God was leading her into ministry. And so we went off uh to college, went to school down in uh Tocoa, Georgia, and was a great experience for those four years. And and uh Heidi actually came home uh my sophomore year and went through cosmetology school and then uh came back. We got married between my sophomore and junior year with the idea that we would wait and have kids about seven years later, and lo and behold, uh a little over a year later, we are having our first child. And I was paralyzed. I mean, I was overwhelmed uh because I'm like, how can I be a dad? I was 21 at the time. Like, I'm not even sure I can take care of myself. I know I'm not doing well taking care of Heidi and I, and let alone now a new baby coming in. It it rocked my world. I I remember thinking, just feeling so uh unprepared, insufficient uh with that. But uh, as we were going through college, uh all these messages of ministry and and many of them were exciting and and wanting to walk alongside people. And there were also messages at that time period of uh, you know, you got to be really careful what you share with people. Because if you share your story with people, they're probably gonna use it against you. And that those were the words like you know, keep a good gap between you and people and don't let them in too far. And it was all birthed out of experiences that pastors had had that that things had been used against them as they shared their story.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

And that was the voice of the enemy, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Very much so. But but but sounded very wise at the time. Yeah, sounded very wise at the time, and so and Heidi had grown up in a pastor's home, and and so this idea of kind of keeping a protective layer around us uh sounded wise, sounded what we should do, sounded what she had known, and and so uh we're we're getting ready, uh going into my senior year. We have Hannah as our first uh child and had about six months left. And my mom came down and uh she spent some time with us. And to give a little backstory uh of my mom, and and it plays very much into my story. My mom also grew up in Lima. Her parents had her, her parents were in their early 40s when they had my mom. They had already had four other kids, and uh one of the other kids was actually married. Uh would be my uncle was married and was getting uh had found out that they were pregnant and they lost their baby. Uh while my grandparents were pregnant with my mom, and and I look back and now can see it very differently. I my my grandparents felt really guilty. They already had four healthy kids, and here their son and daughter-in-law had just lost a baby, and they they felt really guilty when my mom came into this world. And and the messages that my mom experienced growing up was this idea that she was a mistake, that she wasn't wanted, that this wasn't the plan, and and all of those things, and and my mom internalized that and uh her story is her story of uh just feeling like she was less than and not wanted and worthless. And and so in the midst of that uh story, uh you know, I I remember if I if I would describe my mom and the years of me growing up, I I would one word would jump out and it would be the word just angry. She was angry. She was angry of I I think the life that she had in the sense that she didn't feel like she fit, uh feel like she was always less than. And so, you know, as a kid growing up in that setting, uh I I remember like it became my mission as a kid. I I think kids are great observers, it's just we don't interpret things well. I I thought, I thought in a lot of ways that um she was upset with me. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

You know, see how you internalize those things and yeah, we start to create stories to justify yeah, yeah, and I think the enemy is in all of that.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Yeah, uh faulty beliefs about ourselves, faulty beliefs about God, faulty beliefs about other people, and but it but I I made it, I look back on it now, I m I made it my mission to try to make my mom happy. Yeah, um, but but could not do that, and she was just uh angry. But but when we uh got married and and had Hannah, um my mom there were some things that were starting to change with my mom. I mean she had she had uh trusted Christ uh in that those late 20s, like I mentioned. Um, but something was happening to her. Like she was she was uh that anger wasn't as prevalent. Uh she was uh talking about her story more, being open about that. And um, you know, she she sat down with I I remember the kitchen table. Hannah was just um under a month old. And when my mom would would get a little bit like you knew a a talk was coming, her shoulder would start to it was I tell, like, okay, here comes something. And and she just looked at me and she said, Peter, um I I know that I passed down some stuff to you, some junk. Some of my woundedness, some of my pain, some of my hurt. And I just want you to know that that when you're ready to deal with that stuff, it's okay. And you're not gonna dishonor me. You're you in fact, you're gonna honor me by going after that, because I know I know I passed some junk on to you. And I remember my my response very quickly was a response that I had learned early on was to deflect. And I I think I made a joke like this, like, uh mom, you probably should be talking to Jeremy, my younger brother, he's six years younger. You probably should be talking to him because he, you know, he needs more help than I do. And and and I I at that time I did not understand what my mom was doing for me. It was one of the greatest gifts that she ever gave me. Um but I I just played it off. Um, because very much my my whole uh approach to ministry, my whole approach to life was uh trying to help people, the people right in front of me, and and the people that you know would come and they would need help, and I I would, hey, you need to do this, this, and this type of thing. I mean, that that really ultimately came to find out that I had kind of ushered into that place of God. What was God for me was helping other people and deflecting. And when people would ask me how I was doing, didn't happen often, but when I'd sit with people in ministry and they would ask me how I was doing, I would quickly deflect what was going on in me because that uh we don't go there. I'm gonna help you. And so that that became a framework that I learned growing up of I I want to help my mom. And then became this thing of I want to help people in ministry. And if you can imagine, uh that that was celebrated by people. They were like, hey, this, you know, this guy really cares and he really helps and he and a lot, you know, that type of thing. But all the while, as that was happening, I I was I was feeling disconnected and lonely and and was not known. And so began in ministry uh up in uh Flint, Michigan. Now, my parents are both Ohio State grads. Uh we grew up in Lima, Ohio. I mean, Ohio State football all the time. And so I I can remember uh when I told my parents I'm taking a job in Michigan. Oh there was almost like a pause on the phone. Almost like like I was listening. We joke about this later. Almost a pause, like my mom and dad were thinking, does God even work up in Michigan? So so any true Ohio State. That's right, that's right. A deep, deep, yeah. But I felt, you know, I I tell I I tell the joke, you know, some people get called to Africa. I got called to a darker place. I got sent to Michigan. In fact, my parents would come up, and as we started having uh with all three of our kids, they they had this deep fear, uh, of you know, uh fun fear of um that their grandkids were gonna become Michigan fans. So every time they came up to see us, they brought something Ohio State. Every time. In fact, I Caleb was playing high school football, and the colors of his team and Celine were the same colors of uh Michigan. And so my parents would come up to the football games and they would wear their Ohio State stuff. And and I would say to him, I'd say, Mom, Dad, I understand. I understand. But could you just wear Celine colors? Not Michigan colors, Celine colors. So the next week, next Friday night, uh my mom and dad come and they have Selene colors on. My dad's not a man of many words. He comes up into the uh uh bleachers with us, sits down, just leans forward, he pulls his shirt down, he's got Ohio State shirt underneath, and he said, I couldn't let it touch my skin.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

How how fun is that for us to be from Ohio and be able to be part of the greatest rivalry? The rivalry. It is unreal. I think it when Hudson got closed that were yellow and blue, like that's a really nice shirt. I don't really care much for the color, but yeah, and it's just unconscious. You just you just say it because that's what it is, and that's what it's been our whole life. And it's it's just so fun to be to be part of that. That is a great story because that's what I was thinking. Too bad they didn't have crickets back then where they could just put Selena on some scarlet and gray, you know.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

So they're supporting the school, but their colors, you know. Yeah, it uh and and we spent 20 almost 25 years of ministry up in uh Michigan and loved it. Loved the people deeply in three three different places, got lifelong friends in that. But but we always we still do raz one another about that uh about that rivalry. So go ahead, Brain, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

Oh, I was just gonna say, can I I wanted to say one thing about you know, you talked about you're helping people, you're in ministry, but you're having this feeling of aloneness, and I think it's important for the congregation to pray for their pastor and also show care for the pastor. You know, I think it's it's easy to fall into this, he's the pastor, he's got it all figured out, he doesn't need prayer, he's here for us. And I just for the listeners, I think it'd be good to have a posture of wanting to pray for your pastors. So I do pray for you.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Yeah, I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

Yeah, I do.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

Um as we then started and graduated, went up to Michigan, first youth ministry, started out as a youth pastor. That that was my lifelong mission. I the idea of being a senior pastor or lead pastor, farthest thing from my mind. I wanted to work with students because I wanted I wanted to help students and be present for them in a way, again, that I said I didn't feel like maybe I had during that season of my life. It was motivated by that. I look back on that and uh I'll share the rest of the story. Uh uh it was a faulty thinking on my end. And so uh I'll never forget this young man comes into my office and he begins to talk to me and and share with me about how he is sleeping with his girlfriend. He doesn't want to do it, he just does not, but they've crossed this line, and and and and I'm thinking, here it is, here's my opportunity. I mean, this is what I have gone to school for. This is what my life's mission, all of that. And I started approaching him with a lot of what I call A plus B equals C, uh, maybe a lot of law type of principles, like, okay, dude, you got to do this, this, and this. And he would go that week and he would do this, this, and this, and and it didn't work. And he would come back and I would be like, okay, man, you got it. I mean, you got to try it harder. I mean, you got to do more. I mean, come on, you gotta, yeah, and and I would give him three new things that he had to do. And very much principles that I would pull out of the Bible and say, okay, take this, apply it to your life, and and get it together, literally saying, get it together, fix it. Came back a third time, just discouraged. And I amped it up even more and was like, Man, you gotta do this. I mean, don't you love Jesus? I mean, all of these things, and and and and was really frustrated, and he he went away and and he never came back. And I I remember at that time of ministry, I was like, man, two things were happening. One, I needed to get better tools to give people, because obviously that was the issue. And secondly, man, people need to get it together. Like, come on, like fix yourself. Like, let's let's do this, even though as I look back on it now, like how how what faulty thinking and and arrogance and all of that. And I I just remember that that first experience of ministry just being like, man, okay, I gotta do this better. And so it just amped up more. And and in the midst of that, what I would tell you is um that I was becoming a husband, a pastor, a father that had expectations for the people around me. And so I had expectations for Heidi, and I had expectations for my kids because I I had this idea they needed to be perfect, right? They they needed to be an example. And and same thing for Heidi and had that. And at the end of that uh first ministry we've been there about five years, they was beginning to have some conflict between the lead pastor at that time, who is a close friend of mine, and the leadership team. And and here I am caught in the middle, and I'm just trying to make people happy. I mean, this is this is I mean, I want I just want people to be happy and I want to help them and and all of these things. And and I can remember uh in that season of time, Heidi went on bed rest with our youngest Olivia because of having some difficulties with pregnancy and and things that the church were not going well between uh the pastor and the leadership team and and my anxiety, which I did not understand at that time. I mean, I I was literally at nighttime, I would, I would start to dry heave uh just because I was so and I remember saying, like, God, is this what you called me to? I mean, is this what you really, is this what you want me to give my life to? Because it just feels I I'm not doing a good job. People aren't doing what they should be doing, and and the church in general was just in chaos. And I I I can remember just so frustrated with God. And um, and and then I I I uh we went to the next place. We went out into rural uh Michigan, up in the thumb of Michigan, a town called Marlette, and had never been in a rural setting before. You know, Lima, Lima and Marion have a lot of similarities. It's kind of a rural, uh kind of a suburban and kind of an urban, all kind of squashed together. Um, and and so this was my first time in an only rural church.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

So you went, this is you went to a different church at this point.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

Went to a different church. And now this this church, I wasn't the youth pastor because I was kind of like this kind of being caught in the middle of that experience in the first church. I like, I don't want to do that again. Um so uh went uh and became the only pastor there. It was a it was a church that had been for years declining. Um, and it was about 30, 40 people when we got there. And so here it is. My my first experience didn't go the way I thought it would was gonna go. Second experience um started, things started growing and going well, but but still, this this disconnect, I felt very much uh apart from the church. Like there was the church and they had relationships, but I was kind of outside of that. But again, trying to give people wisdom, trying to help them, and sometimes people would do it, sometimes people would not, but but uh all in that season of our life just had these unrealist unrealistic expectations for Heidi. Like Heidi needed to be perfect, and when hard things would happen and when challenging things would happen, and she was hurting and struggling, my response to that lack of better words. I'll I'll say it as I didn't say it this way, but it was it came out this way. Suck it up, Heidi. I mean, we're doing this for Jesus, right? I mean, you I mean, come on, we got we you you can't feel that stuff. It was that that whole pushing down of feelings and emotions, and now look back on that guy, and and um that that and even with my kids, the very same thing. Like if they struggled or if they started to misbehave, man, my whole motive for correcting them, my whole motive for getting them to be better was I had this perception that we had to be uh perfect and and we had to be this example. And and uh we we began to see young couples come to Christ. I mean, it was in many ways was just a really cool time. We people that had never been in church before started coming to church and and coming to Christ, but still this disconnect. So I'm I'm loving people, I'm serving people, but inside I'm like, is this I mean, I feel very other so I'd I'd sit with people and I would say things like, Man, you've got to share your story, you've got to be real with what's going on. And as I'm saying that to them, inside I'm like, uh no one knows my story. No, no one knows my struggle. No one really knows me. They know a version of me, but they don't know me. And so it was this weird tension that was happening. Uh and and uh in that time, Heidi started struggling again. And uh so it was kind of this idea, well, we probably need to go to a new place, right? I mean, when things like this, and and she was just uh discouraged, and and I, you know, I felt like, okay, we probably need to make a change. So we then move to Celine, Michigan, outside of Ann Arbor. Talk about going to the belly of the beast type of thing. Uh we we go to uh Ann Arbor, and this is this is a young church, it's only five years old, and I am the fourth pastor in five years. I mean, that's a lot of turnover. They had two uh regular pastors, an interim pastor, and then here I come uh in this uh the fourth guy in five years, and began uh leading and and just this vision for the church and all of this, and began to um you know see some good things happen. There were some hard things that were happening at the same time, and and some of these same feelings that I thought, I mean, I think oftentimes we think this that we change a situation uh or or we change a uh a relationship, and then you know that stuff's gonna go away, but uh then it starts to come back up again, and then Heidi uh began to struggle more. And uh just all of the expectations that I think I had put on her and her own story and all of that, and and around this time period, and it didn't go succinctly, so but I'll give you kind of some things that were going on. I Heidi just came to me and she said, I I can't do it anymore. I don't even want to go to church anymore. And if you imagine this idea that, you know, other people may leave the church, but when your wife comes to you and says, I can't do it anymore, that that that resonates a little bit. Yeah, say so. Yeah, a little bit different. And and that that is happening in this time period. She was just struggling, and she has her own story and of how God has met her and and redeemed in powerful ways. That that's her story. But but in this time, I'm like, this this thing called ministry that God's called me to is not working. At that same time, uh, right around that same time period, this family comes to church uh one Sunday. And uh when anybody new comes to church, I love to meet them. I want to know their name. So I go up and I I meet this family, and this guy, Ken, introduces himself, and he is the offensive coordinator at Eastern Michigan uh football. And so, I mean, I love football and and all of that, and I and I say on that, I think. Yeah, I mean, just like I want to meet, I want to know this dude better. So I like, hey, Ken. Um, before he left, I said, hey, I'd love to grab lunch with you. And he was like, all right, we'll do that. So we um we go to lunch, Ruby Tuesdays. Remember good old Ruby Tuesday salad bar? Uh we we go there and we we spend about an hour and a half. And Ken begins to share his story with me. Very vulnerable, very open, of brokenness. And and his story uh was this story of all of these expectations, all these things that he thought life would be, and it it basically got abended on him and it destroyed him. And his his view of God, his view of people, his view of himself had been shattered. And as he's sharing this, and and he's talking about uh being part of this church down in Georgia, and he's he talks about this discipleship environment he goes through, and he starts to talk about how he was be he was known, and people knew his story, and and he was able to be in community, and he no longer had to live by appearances or by expectations. And and two things are happening in me. Uh, you know how it talks in the scripture about how the flesh and the spirit will battle, they'll be at war with one another. I felt for the first time in my life that internal war happening because there was part of my my spirit was like, tell me more. I I want to hear more because what you're talking about has not been my experience. I want to know more. I all of this stuff. At the same time, I'm a little ticked off because I'm thinking to myself, man, who are you to sit in front of me and and share your story? Like it kind of I was mad. I was mad, like it was confronting. My flesh was getting defensive and and all of that. So these two things are happening in me in our hour and a half uh meeting over uh at uh Ruby Tuesdays. And I said to him, uh I'll let you in on a little bit of a practice of pastors that that we do sometimes. I I said to him, say, hey, Ken, could you give me the name and the number of your pastor down in Georgia? I just want to give him a call. And and there were two things, my flesh and my spirit were at war. My spirit wanted to hear more about this whole experience, but my flesh wanted to be, I was hoping I was gonna call this pastor down in Georgia, and he was gonna say something like this. Peter, you you need to be a little bit careful of Ken. He's a little bit off his rocker. I I kind of was hoping for that. And so I I call this dude, his name is Herb, and I call him in he's living outside of Atlanta, Georgia, and this this guy answers the phone with this deep southern draw. I I'd done four years of college down in Georgia. Love the people in Georgia, but I'm on the phone. It took me back to my time down there, and I begin to ask him questions about Ken. And he he's answering some of the questions, but not giving me the answers that my flesh is hoping for. And then he we were on this. I've never met this guy in person. First time meeting on a phone, and we spent about two hours together. And he begins to just talk about his own story and how what he had kind of put as his God in his life, that it just kind of collapsed. I I I think in each of our stories, there there is are these lies, these faulty thinkings that we believe about God, about others, about ourselves. And in the midst of those lies, the enemy comes in and gives us all what I would say would be a counterfeit. You know, whether it's alcohol, whether it's heroin, whether it's uh for me, it looked like my view of ministry. It's like, hey, elevate this. This'll give you what you want, right?

SPEAKER_02 36:45

So since you brought up that Bible verse, you mind if I just read it just so the listeners. So Galatians 5 17, for the flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh, and these are contrary to one and one to the other, so that ye cannot do the things that ye would be.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Yeah, it's like this battle that's going on in we all deal with it no matter who you are. It doesn't matter. And the enemy just uh does that where he just he comes in with a counterfeit that gives the appearance of life but leads to death. And and so he's telling me the story, and and again, this this thing's going on inside of me, but but in this instant the spirit was just speaking because speaking to me because it was almost as if I I remember this clearly. The spirit was saying, Peter, in these three churches that you've been in, that you've been frustrated, and that that you your expectations for Heidi, for the kids, for for people, for yourself, all these things, you you know what the common denominator is in all three of these churches. And then that in the midst of that same time, that that conversation with my mom comes back into the framework. And um like Peter, I know I passed on some stuff that you need to deal with, you need to address at some point, and it was all coming to the surface. And I I remember getting off the phone with Herb and I was I was broken and it felt like I was in this season, like this is not working well. And is there something more for me in how I in life and and my marriage, in parenting, in ministry, and and so it kind of led down this path that uh met Herb in person, and then he invited me to come down for their discipling uh experience that they do, where you go through six months long discipling together, but it starts by a weekend. We just get in the room with about eight people, and all you do throughout that weekend is tell your story. And I remember sitting down there with this group of guys from Georgia, and they're telling their story, and I'm telling my story, and I'm sitting there with this internal battle going on. Like, these guys know me, and I know them better in this one weekend than people I have been at church with for years. And so it was again this colliding of remember those messages I was given early on in ministry like keep a distance, don't tell your story, don't don't show your weakness, don't show your struggle, you know. And then realizing that that had not worked out well, I felt so alone, so disconnected. And it was kind of that watershed moment in my life, and God was doing amazing things in Heidi's life, and and we would we would describe that season of our lives of we would never want to do that again, and we would never trade that for anything. Yeah, because God just did some stuff in us, those things that we had propped up as counterfeit. I even as I listen to your two stories, I I just this is amazing to me how God continues to pursue us, even when we are hard headed, right? Right? He just like like to me that that that God pursues us even when over and over, and I could look back and I could see these these moments in my life where God was pursuing me, but I would just this is what I you know, and I I couched it in the thing, I'm doing this for God, right? And so I I approached life that way, I'm doing it for God, and and yet he just continues to pursue. And so my my whole ministry idea, my whole expectations of marriage, it just had collapsed and God was present and it it was his grace. It did not feel like grace, it felt like I had failed. And so it was it was in that time period that just felt like this watershed moment of am I gonna enter into community with people? Am I gonna walk with people without expectations and be present with them? What would that look like? And so it was kind of this this during that whole those three church experiences up to this point, it was not uncommon for me on a Monday to, and I I'm gonna date myself here, to uh look at the uh ads in the newspaper of jobs, other jobs. Like I'd come to a Monday morning and be like, this is not working. What else could I do? And it didn't have indeed and everything you could look on the website. It was, you know, you'd get the old paper out and you'd circle. And I remember it was this weird thing that would happen off and on during that time. And and I I felt like I was at a moment of either sink or swim. Either I'm gonna walk into this differently or I'm done. I'm done with this. I I'm not it I'm gonna lose my family, I'm gonna lose my wife, I'm gonna lose my own sanity in that. And so this passage of scripture was so powerful. It's in uh 2 Corinthians chapter 5. This was a transformational scripture for me in this season. And uh chapter 5, verse 11, or uh 14 is where I'll start. It says, for the love of Christ controls us. In some versions it says, compels us, leads us. Because we have concluded this, that one has died for all, therefore all died, and he died for all, and those who live might no longer live for themselves. And for me, I recognize I was living for myself. Like even in the even under the umbrella of ministry, I was living for myself. I was, I had expectations, I had all of these ideas of what it should look like: self-promotion, self-protection. I found my identity in helping people. And it wasn't working out well for me. And so it says, no, no longer living for themselves, but for him who for their sake died and was raised. From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. This idea that when I encounter people, I am no longer going to regard them by their appearances, by the story they want me to believe about themselves, by the the appearances that they have. That I recognize every person that I encounter, there are two things and multiple things that are true about them. One, they they don't know Christ. And I want them to know, to be reconciled to Christ. Or two, they know Christ, but they don't believe who they really are in Christ. They're still finding their identity in something else. And so no matter who I'm in front of or who's in front of me, I'm no longer going to regard them by the seen realities of this world. You know, the way this world tries to identify us through our political uh ideology, through our sexual identity, through our uh our work or our our all these things that we identify one another by. I'm no longer gonna live according to that. That's what's saying here. We're no longer going to uh see people by their flesh, even though we once regarded Christ to the flesh, we gr regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away, and behold, the new has come, and all this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation. That is, in Christ, God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God for our sake. He made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. That this was this was game-changing for me. It was a transformation. And I mean, I I I think even as the three of us sit here, the truest thing about the three of us is that we are ministers of reconciliation. Because we we have trusted Christ. He now lives present tense in us. And it to me, it's this decoration, and and whether it's in the workspaces or the neighborhoods that you live in or that I live in, we've been given this ministry reconciliation. This isn't just for some uh group of people called pastors or missionaries or da-da-da. This this is the body of Christ, and we're ambassadors, and our whole, our whole um movement in this life is to the people around us. You can be reconciled to God. He loves you, he is for you, and and he wants you to know him and him, all of these things that we get. And it was in this season that for me, the Bible um, up to this point, the Bible had become a textbook, or it had become a place that if someone was struggling in life, I would go find a couple verses, I would come back to him and say, now here's what it says, do it. So it became kind of this uh I'd go to the toolbox, I'd find this tool, and I would give it, and I would see all these principles and all of these things that you're supposed to do. And even when I was reading the epistles, I would read the epistles, I would see all these things you're supposed to do. And and it's like God in the midst of that just totally changed my heart for the scriptures. And Herb just began. We would meet weekly and we would just start to read the scriptures together.

SPEAKER_02 47:59

What would you say to somebody that's listening that is in just the middle of darkness and dealing with life, and maybe thinking I know I wouldn't even be welcomed at church. Yeah. I don't know how to have a relationship with God. Look where I'm at in my life. Yeah. What would you say to that person?

SPEAKER_00 48:24

If I'm sitting with someone like that, I'd first want to hear their story. I I think sometimes from a this this is a broad conversation, but sometimes as Christians, we think we need to give answers right away. Like, do this, do this, you know. This is you know, I I think I would listen to that person's story and hear what they have gone through. Um, and then I'm I'll mention this a little bit, but I'll say it here now because of the question. A lot of times when when you hear people's story and then you begin to talk about God, and and that comes up because inevitably, even I've had people tell me, hey, Pastor, we're not talking about God. They start to share their story and they start to bring God up. Because it it's just what's true about all of us is there's there's this uh fundamental it is, it's in us.

SPEAKER_02 49:22

Yeah, we were made, we were made everything the Bible says his he's written his laws on our hands, right?

SPEAKER_00 49:29

We were made for relationship with God, every person. And so what what I've come, uh oftentimes people will uh someone in like I I can't come to church or I I I I just don't think God would welcome me or even want a relationship with me. A lot of times then we try to defend God, and and usually what I'll what I'll ask at that time is tell me who you think God is, and to listen. And it usually there's been in their story, just like my story, it it is this like the enemy has again those three lies that the enemy comes after us with. Our faulty belief about who God is, our faulty belief about who other people are, and our faulty belief about who we are. And usually I'll I'll have people, I don't want to have anything to do with God. I I mean, I, you know, in lack of a better word, screw God type of thinking. Usually then you say, okay, so who do you believe God is? And when they tell me their version of who they believe God is, I'm usually like, yeah, I wouldn't want to have anything to do with that God either.

SPEAKER_03 50:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:37

You're right. I mean, your conclusion is right, who you believe God to be. And that's where I would walk with someone in that, because I I believe that when people understand that God is for them, and that everybody, and that everybody has a story. And in each of our stories, it is this these things that have happened to us by our own doing and things that have happened to us by that aren't by our choosing, that the enemy has through in our lives has just come in and implanted these lies, you know, that the scripture he comes to steal, kill, and destroy. He's like this this lion trying to devour us, and he's implanting these in. And what's true about all of us, and that's that's the thing that I think was so powerful when you begin to hear each other's stories. You see those themes. Our stories are different, right? I mean, they differ have different pieces of the narrative, but the things that are common is how the enemy has deceived us, how he has elevated a counterfeit for us to grab a hold of, and that the grace of God is that he pursues us to come to the end of that counterfeit. And for me, it was coming to the end of myself, all these things that I had propped up. And and I would, I would, I think, and and through this ministry of reconciliation, I think one of the most important things is to be present with the people right in front of you, to know their story, if you're able, and then there's some people you meet for like a half an hour and you don't have the, but if there's people in your lives, I mean, just I think it for us as followers of Christ to be curious. We just we want to tell everybody how to know Jesus or to get their life together right off the bat. And I think when we understand people's stories, we understand their struggles and their battles. And this is this has been my experience. When we share our stories with one another, judgment leaves the room and compassion and empathy enters into the room. And the ministry of reconciliation can take place, right? I mean, when when we know each other's story, all of a sudden, the assumptions that I make about you or I make about you or you make about me, when we know each other's story, that leaves the room. I mean, because we're so we're so wired to judge each other by appearances.

SPEAKER_03 53:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:14

And to create a narrative in our mind that usually looks like uh, you know, I need to kind of keep my distance, or vice versa. But when we know each other's story, man, I I think that is the biggest lie of the enemy, and I think that is the most important reality of the church, is everybody's greatest fear in this world is to be known. Because there's the lie of the enemy that if you're known, people are going to walk away from you, people are gonna reject you, people are gonna talk about you, and there will be some of those experiences. But the body of Christ is this beautiful thing that when we know each other and when we hear each other's story, we hear the story of reconciliation. Like when I listen to your guys' two stories, I mean, I I'm just sitting there like, there you are, God. Like that's amazing to me. I mean, and so we sit in this room and and there's this compassion that we have for one another because we know each other's story. And and when hard times come, we don't we don't go to our assumptions, we go to what is true. And what is true about every person that you encounter, that I encounter, God's heart is for them. I don't care how they're behaving, I don't care what they're doing, God's heart is for them. So I want to speak to that reality. I want to sit with that reality. And in that, not only does compassion enter the room and judgment leaves, but so does expectation. And this for me was a transformational piece. I realized I could not fix or help anyone.

SPEAKER_02 54:59

There there's a lot of power and vulnerability, right? Which is it's kind of ironic, right? You you get vulnerable with somebody, especially when you're you know trying to share your story about Jesus. When you're vulnerable, it almost kind of like you're saying, it disarms them. You you send empathy enters the room. And you just a lot of people relate vulnerability with weakness, and it's just not the case. Uh, you know, when you're vulnerable, there's so much power in that, and it's just kind of ironic.

SPEAKER_00 55:40

And and we're drawn to that, right? We're we're afraid to be known, but man, when we're known, there's like this freedom, like that Christ is pursuing us. And I could be known in it, and I I just think we live so much by appearances, and we want every person, every person tries to create an appearance, a version of themselves that they want to interact with the world about. And that's where it says in the scripture, we no longer regard people that way. So if someone comes to me and and they're highly successful and they're just maybe what the world said is amazing and they're not vulnerable, I just know that their story is they have places like in my story and their story of brokenness. It's just they have achieved in such a way to protect themselves. Uh, I I just think that that's true. So it's always about the ministry of the person right in front of us. It's always about if we can know their story, I mean, we lean in as the body of Christ, we lean in. And it's also that this is what I believe about all of our. Remember how I talked about how the enemy brings a counterfeit? The thing that the enemy does with his counterfeit is he lifts it up and he says, you can find life in this. But usually that the result of a counterfeit is aloneness, isolation, and this disconnectedness with the world around us. Even though we might be around people, it offers us this thing, and yet it just sucks the life out of us.

SPEAKER_02 57:27

And and honestly, what what he's doing, it seems to me at the root, he's always just trying to distract you from Jesus. Yeah. From keeping your eyes on Jesus and having, you know, spending time with Jesus, anything related to Jesus. Satan wants to pull your focus away from him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:47

And that usually looks like isolation. It usually looks like disconnection. It usually looks like trying to find life and something that gives the appearance of life, but will never give life. And and and the power of the reality is when you know who you are in Christ, your story is all about his story. It's no longer your identity. It's part your story is as we sit here, the three of us, we are sons. I mean, that that is who we are. In the midst of all of our mess and our struggle and our attempts to make life work, God has pursued us and he has reconciled us to him through through Jesus. He chose us.

SPEAKER_02 58:32

Yeah, when I think of it that way, man, like the creator of everything, the heavens and the earth and everything in it chose me. Yeah. But he chooses he's chosen us all, but you know, we all have to accept that.

SPEAKER_00 58:50

And he's pursuing, I I just think that, and when that when that becomes when when he's in the center of the room and our identity is in him, we can share our stories with one another. The good, the bad, and the ugly.

SPEAKER_03 59:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:08

We can, because that's that's part of his redemption. It's just when when we live by appearances, we think we have to manage our stories. And you know, when you meet someone new, you you you want to give a certain story about yourself, but when we know who we are in Christ, we no longer have to live by that. And and when the scriptures were coming alive for me as I'm I'm so I'm sitting here with with Herb on the phone. He's down in Georgia, and we're we're reading through 1 Corinthians, we're reading through Ephesians, and I I had read the scriptures for so long for answers to fix people or to help people. But all of a sudden, I was seeing it so differently. Like in the epistles, it's uh it blows my mind when you read that the beginning of 1 Corinthians and the beginning of Ephesians and and Colossians, and you see these amazing declarations that Paul says about the church. He just says, you know, you you God is for you. You you have been set apart. You are, he says, You're holy. And he declares these things about who they are. And then he says, now there's some stuff we got to talk about, about what you're doing. I had flipped the gospel. And my gospel was I need to do these things, and I need to get people to do these things so they would become Christ-like. But when you understand the reality that Jesus has placed, and this to me is so amazing. And that He's placed His life in me, He's placed His life in you, He's placed His life in you. That's who we are, that's our identity. And when we understand what that really is, we can talk about the stuff. But if we believe that that somehow we gotta fix our stuff so we'll be presentable, that's offensive to the cross. I mean, the cross declares that there is nothing we bring to the table. The only thing we bring to the table is our sin.

unknown 1:01:18

Amen.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:18

That's the only thing. And the only one that can transform and change our sin is Jesus. And when he does that, we I mean, we are ambassadors of that. We get to we get to walk with the people in our lives and we get to share with them. We get to, I'll say it this way. I believe when we understand our identity in Christ, we will sit with people longer than religiosity will tell us to. We'll sit with people when it's a mess. And and it was during that season that for Heidi and I, and as we're in um in Celine, uh I began to share my story. We began to create a similar type of environment where we would get together and we would share our story, and here I am sharing the good, the bad, the ugly about me with people in my church. And um it was it was one of the most powerful things I ever experienced in my life, and have lifelong friends who know the best about me, and they also know the not so best about me, and they love me. And for me, that was just transformational. That that that is what I longed for. That that to me, and and it also, it also I had this perception of being a pastor, meaning it meant I needed to be the example, I needed to have it all together, and and Herb said this to me one time, and he said, Peter, you know, sometimes God takes the most messed up person in the room, puts him up front, and calls him pastor.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:08

Yeah. I mean, you don't have to go very far to find all the evidence, it's all in the Bible. So, you know, Paul himself.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:17

Yeah, and and and that was for me like, okay, now that's something I can get my mind around. I mean, and and and so it it has just transformed and changed for me ministry. It has been transforming in my relationship with Heidi. Um, it it it then set me on a pursuit. Um remember I talked about my childhood, and I I remember through this whole experience, someone asked me the question. So tell me about what you feel. Describe your feelings. And I and I came to the reality that I had so stuffed my feelings because I didn't know what to do with those. And so for me, I stuffed them down and I made everything about you. But but what would happen is when someone would begin to share their feelings, I would quickly try to manage their feelings and try to take care of it because it was uncomfortable to me. When someone would begin to share what they were going through and struggling, it was uncomfortable to me because I didn't didn't even know what I felt. And so it it drastically changed my relationship with Heidi because I no longer had to manage her feelings, but rather as a husband, I was called to be present with her in her feelings and her struggles and her dreams and her hopes, but also her fears and her insecurities that that God had called me as her husband to walk with her. I didn't I didn't have to fix her. Jesus was gonna do all that, he's doing that. And it changed to my relationship with my kids. And I I look back on the early days of my kids and man, I God has done a work for me in that, but there was so when it initially happened, there was just so much regret. Like I I had put so many expectations on them to be perfect, and when they would struggle with things, I would quickly try to manage it and move them on. And and now for me as a dad, and I mean um I I've actually gone to back to each of my kids at different times and I've said something very similar that my mom said to me I know each of my kids, I know in some ways they carry the best of me, but I also know they carry the worst of me. And that it's okay. Because there's gonna be a season in their life where and I and I may be around for. That I may not be around for that. I may be already with Jesus. But God's gonna do a work in them. Um, and it's okay to they're not gonna dishonor me. And sometimes we have this weird feeling, especially in the Midwest, when things that we need to deal with, we don't want to do that because we don't want to uh offend our family and all that. But I've just said to them, like, I know there's some stuff I've passed on, and and I and I don't do it well all the time. I don't want to give that idea that I man, there's so many times, even now, as our kids are in their 20s and in their life that that they share things, and I just want to take the pain away, I just want to fix it, I just want them not to hurt. I don't, you know, all those things of my flesh that start to come back in that the spirit just continues to remind remind me, just be present with them. They're right in front of you. Listen.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:59

And you do you think there's also a calling, you know, to to trust in the Lord too? I mean, I think I think about that with my kids, you know, um made lots of mistakes. But part of me, you know, I gotta trust in the Lord with all my heart, right? Proverbs 3, 5, and 6, and lean not on my own understanding and all my ways submit to him, and he will guide my path straight. And I that applies to our kids too. Just lots of trust in the Lord, I think, is important.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:39

When when I was dealing with a lot of initial regret in that, so I had come to this place of like, okay, I know what I've done, my expectations of my kids, and I I mean I I felt like I had messed them up. Herb, uh, I'll never forget this. I both was so thankful for what he said and also a little bit ticked at what he said. He said, Peter, you can't mess this up. If you believe you're in control, yeah, you you can come to that conclusion. But if you know what is true about each of your kids, that God loves them, he has a plan for their life when it looks like it's going well and when it doesn't look like it's going well, you are not in control. He is doing something in them, and and it is that trust. And when he said you can't mess this up, I mean it it again, it was like this. Yeah, that's right. I mean, God loves, God had each of my kids planned before the creation of this world, right? And and his heart is for them, and so now I get to be a participant, not a controller. Yeah, I get to participate with what God is doing in them. I get to participate in what God is doing with Heidi. I get to participate with what God is doing in the midst of people who call cornerstone home, in the midst of this community. I get to be part of that and and and I get to see God work in a way of reconciling, and we're we're seeing that happen of people that have maybe never been in church or people that like said, I'll never go back to church, that are coming into community, and they I believe we get to see God do amazing things. We're seeing it, and it's like, man, he's amazing at that. And and the freedom for me now that I no longer have to control that, but I can just be present. And I also think when we share each other's story and when we show that we're for one another, I believe we can have some of the hardest conversations with one another, right? We we can have hard conversations, but it's the love of Christ that compels us, not trying to fix our expectation, all of that. And I mean, it's just been it's been transformational in my relationship with Heidi, with the kids. It's been transformational in my relationship with the body of Christ. I no longer see myself as outside. But this for me, cornerstone is home for me. I I want to believe that that it'll be home for a long time. I don't know what God's plans are for all of that, but it's home for me. I'm not sitting on the outside looking. There's sometimes my flesh will will prop those things up, and I just know that not to be true. I see it, my flesh is our flesh is will never end this side of heaven, but I'm seeing my flesh a lot quicker than what I used to see and identify it. But it was also very this was you guys may or may not appreciate this. So during that season, as like the scriptures are just coming alive, and I had I had approached the scriptures very much from a law-based give people what they should do, go out and do it, and life will be better. To then I began to see this amazing declaration in scripture of who we are, our identity, the new covenant in Jeremiah 31, verses 31 through 34, this this transformation of his death and resurrection. That as I'm in this season, I would prepare sermons. I'm sure it felt like a Jekyll and Hyde type of experience for the people in the church up in Celine at that time. I know it was because some of them close to me expressed it. That I mean, I would be, I would be preaching law. Like you better do this, you better do this, you better do this. Didn't come out like that. I I'd kind of fine-tuned it, so it sounded a little bit better than that. But as I'm doing that, in the midst of my sermons, I'm like, I remember one time I said, guys, I I don't think what I just said to you was true. I I don't think that's true. I I think the reality of who Christ is and and the transformation and and that we're already in the room. That's one of the things that Herb said so many times as Christians, we are so striving, and this was this was the marker of my life up to that point. Striving to get into a room that we're already in through the cross and the resurrection. But thinking, it's still that that thinking of like, I gotta do this to get into the room. But when we realize we're in the room, man, we can walk with each other differently. We love one another differently. We we don't recard each other by our flesh. And and so I would have like this Jekyll and Hyde conversation happening during the sermon. I mean, it was it was I look back on it now and bizarre. I'm sure the people sitting there were like, what is going on? Because I I would prepare it and then I'd start to walk into it. Like, I don't think this is true. This is not true because I was giving people principles and steps to get into the room. Yeah, and I was not declaring. And so for me as a pastor, it's it's changed that. I I don't believe that here here's the way I say, I don't believe that during the week I go to some mountaintop to meet with God, to come down, like Moses did, to come down and tell the body of how they should live this week.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:32

I believe because of the new covenant and all that Christ has done through his death and resurrection, I know, and and I'll apply it to the two of you sitting here, I know that Christ is in both of you. And my role as a pastor is to really walk in the scriptures together for you to see who you are. And that he has not made a mistake with you, that he has had a plan, a purpose, and I know we have all these things in our past that we're like, man, I wish that wouldn't have happened. And yet, and yet, in some way that I don't understand, he uses all of those. He never wastes anything, our good, our bad, and our ugly. He never wastes anything. And he's shaping us so that we might be ambassadors of reconciliation, that that with the people around us who have these same stories of disconnected from connectedness from God and from others that that we can say, hey, you can know God through Jesus. The way, the truth, and the life. The only way, the truth, and the life, it's not like hey, just find your truth out there. It's Him. And if people know the reality of who He is, I I just think I I get excited about that when I'm reading God's Word, when I'm getting ready to preach that. I don't have to go find something now to help you discover or find something new. I just we're kind of mining the field together to see what is true about each of us within the scriptures.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:14

And you know, I thank Jesus every day for you and how you, you know, you were crucial and and Jesus pulling me out of that very dark place of alcoholism. You know, I don't know if I shared it in my testimony, but since Peter's here, you know, I was about to lose my family to alcoholism, and just to speak at your heart and your heart for people and ministry, you know, I called Pastor Peter and just kind of poured my heart out of what I was going through, and he was there for me and told me about celebrate recovery. I went to celebrate recovery and you know, went to the altar, knelt before God, pouring my eyes out, pleading with God, Lord, just take take this take the alcoholism away from me. And he miraculously took away my cravings, and you know, without your guidance, you know, Jesus Jesus used you 100%, and just that's a testament to your heart for people, and I thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:34

Brandon, when I think about that, because I remember that call. I I remember sitting in my office and we were on that call, and even as I heard your story uh that I listened to uh last night, I and and understanding my story that I was gonna share, I was thinking, man, I I'm so glad, God, for what you did in me and what you've done in Brandon, because if you would have met me 20 years ago, that phone call would have been very different. And and it would have been uh I I would have been attempting to fix and help you to somehow whatever, whatever that is. And and there was such because when we talked on that phone call, I heard I heard your pain, but what I heard even clearer was Jesus was in you you had trusted him, and so I no longer regard you according to your flesh. But you're a new creation and and the fact that that I I remember that day and I I got off the phone and and it was like Jesus, I don't know what you're up to, and I don't know what the outcome is gonna be. But I know he is your son. And would you would you just show that to him? And if you're asking me to be part of that story and to continue to walk, because I didn't know, to be honest with you, I didn't know if that was gonna be the last conversation we had. To be you know, you know, life happens that way and things happen in life. I didn't know if that was gonna be the last conversation or not, but it it's just this this amazing reality that man, when God shows up and when we come to the end of ourselves, because that's the other thing I heard on the phone. Uh I heard a man who was at the end and was like, I don't know what else to do.

unknown 1:18:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:41

That that for me was my story. I'd come to the end, and God, I don't know what else to do. And it's almost like, you know, that that scripture that we no longer live according to it for ourselves. It's like one of the beautiful, most beautiful things about discipleship, about following Jesus is coming to the end of ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:00

It is beautiful. But I've done trying to do it yourself now. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like, hey, I I want I want to transform you. I want to change you. I want to do a new things that you have been trying so hard to do. And when when that happens, when we trust him in that, I mean it's it is amazing. And I I think that's part of our as we walk with people.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:26

I mean, part of the reason that this is even happening, I think, is partly due to you and I mean Jesus using you because you know that really sparked a fire in me. And when I turned my life completely back to Jesus, you know, I wanted to be in ministry in some sort. I I didn't care if it was doing a Bible study. Yeah. And, you know, I don't know. The chain of events that happened in a way resulted to this podcast because, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:01

Yeah, I think in in the struggles that I had and not growing up in the church, not having any understanding of the Bible, I was always taught to believe in Christ, but never had read the Bible. I didn't know. So when Brandon approached me, he he actually put like a thing out. He's like, hey, I was thinking starting a Bible study. And I thought, you know, I could learn some stuff. So in getting with him, it's been so and I said it, I I don't remember when, but I think I've said it before. But when you understand and you let Jesus in, because he's there, he's been there. And even when I didn't even know that he was there, he was there. That's why I said I think I use a he was throwing stones at my head, like, get yourself together, man. And I didn't recognize it as that. And then when you do and you allow him in, almost a weight that's lifted off the bottoms of your feet when you walk through your day becomes better. It's not perfect. There's still hard times, but it's just so powerful. And I wish that people would understand. It's kind of like I I don't want to misspeak and how I and what I'm meaning to say, but it's like as a recovered addict, I wish I could grab the people that I love that are still stuck in it and shake it out of them and say, Man, life is so much better if you could just get it behind you enough to let all those symptoms of what it takes to get there go. It's beautiful. And I think following Christ is kind of comparable in that because people for some reason have this, I don't know. I I don't know. You know, I don't understand it and not willing, or maybe it's not even the willingness. I don't want to like demonize anyone that that's not made that step yet. But once they you just want to shake them and say, once you do and you feel what it does for your everything on earth, it becomes so much easier to approach the issues, the great things, yeah, and everything in between. You know, it it's it's so important. And I'm so thankful that that chain of events took place because it's bringing me closer and closer to understanding. And that's what I pray. It's just understanding, patience while I learn, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:26

The the the reality of being able, and I think this ministry reconciliation that we have as a body of Christ, as we walk with people, um, and and we so want them, right? We so want them to get it. I just get it. And usually the journey, and this this was for me. I I tried to get ahead of Jesus and try to fix someone and help them and da-da-da. And and and it was it was this reality of Jesus saying, listen, they've got to come to the end of themselves. And that's painful to watch, isn't it? That's hard to watch. And we don't know the outcome of that, but it is this beautiful work that God has done in in each of your lives, he's done in my life, is we come to the end of ourselves and we encounter God, not religion. I I think it it in people's experiences. This is this is what I encounter here specifically, I would say, uh in other places, but really in in Marion and surrounding area, people have had a lot of experience with religiosity. They've had a lot of experience with uh this like uh, you know, expectations that people have had, and and and and if their life hasn't turned out a certain way, the the last place they want to walk into is uh is a church, because in a church they're just gonna reaffirm how they're all screwed up, right? And this type of thing. But and and this judgment and religiosity, and I I think, I think the incredible power of a of a body of Christ that people can walk in and be known, and people move towards them and walk with them and trust, and this is the hardest thing, but the most beautiful thing. Trust the work of God in each of us. And it usually does not happen on our timetable, but it is a beautiful thing that as we walk with one another. I mean, Brandon, as I I sit here with you right now, I'm just like, God, you are doing some good stuff here. Matt, I as I heard your story the other day, I'm like, God, you are you are doing some good stuff. I mean, it's just what he does. And to me, that's beautiful. And then he calls us to walk with other people and to be patient and to be trusting him when we see him at work and we we don't see him at work, but to know, to know that his heart is for people, no matter, no matter what they've done or how far they think they're disconnected from God. He loves them. And that was declared through Jesus. And I I think that's powerful. I think that's beautiful, but I think oftentimes this religiosity that kind of hangs over our region is is like it I think is one of the biggest obstacles. Because usually I love that.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:27

I love that word. And I think religiosity is uh what made me scared as I came into sobriety to get in, because I went and sat at the back pew in a church just because I I felt it. When the things started happening in my story that made me understand that it was beyond anything earthly that was happening, it wasn't super inviting. So some years passed after that. So the the standards, the the I don't know where in society or in church society that that became a thing where when someone walks in the door, you kind of like but it's natural as humans to look at somebody and see tattoos or see piercings and say, hmm, one, you know, just assume the worse instead of instead of speaking. And I kind of wear the things that I do kind of with pride because I know who I am in my heart, you know. And if you just talk to me, that's the testimony table podcast. Yeah, that's what we're trying to lift up. Just come have a conversation. And we've we've even said before, you know, if you don't want to make content, if you don't want to record, just email us, we'll reach out to you and let's just talk. It's so important because I think when you start learning the the old saying, you know, judging a book by its cover, it's naturally done as humans. You even if you cancel it immediately because you've learned that, it's still almost just a response. You look at someone, you make a quick judgment in your head, and if you and that's just what we do, but you have to learn to kind of push that down and maybe just approach that person and and speak to them, and it could make their day.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:21

I I think that's what this Second Corinthians 5 is speaking of. We no longer re regard each other by flesh. So I when we see each other, I mean, imagine this. Imagine this. Imagine a body of Christ, a church, whereas people come in, because I believe, Matt, everybody walks in to a community with that same fear. Like, am I gonna be rejected here or am I gonna be accepted? But am I can I wear my hat? Can I wear my hat? We had that conversation. I I wore my hat today. Um but but that those those things that lies again that the enemy implants and Yeah, they're probably not going to want anything to do when they know you all these things. But imagine and I I think this is the beauty of the body of Christ. Imagine a community that as people come in with their fears and their insecurities and their struggles and their their all these things. Imagine a group of people that says, I'm not going to regard you. I'm not going to judge you by your cover. I know what is true. Those two. Either you don't know him and I want to be a part of you being reconciled to him. Or the second thing, you know him, but you don't believe what is true about you because of his death and resurrection. And I want you to know, no matter how you speak, no matter how you act, no matter how you dress, no matter whatever, because it could look like that. It could look like walking in with a bunch of tats. It also could look like someone coming in looking really good from the wisdom of this world, kind of put together. Look at my life. Both of those things are appearances. James even talks about that. Like if you if you welcome into your midst the guy that has it all together, but you don't welcome the person that's struggling. Like, what are you doing? And I think even beyond that is this idea that even the person that has it all together, uh, newsflash, doesn't have it all together. And and and in fact, I I have said it this way I get really nervous with people that communicate to me a message about their lives that they have it all together. That to me is like, oh boy. Red flag. Red flag. Red flag. And and why? That's how I came across. And I knew. I knew. And people celebrated that in me. Like Peter, you just you love people and you're helping people, and yet, and you're just your great example. You and Heidi are a great example, and yet behind the scenes we're withering away. And I knew, I know the the brokenness of that, of creating an appearance. And so I I just think the beauty of the body of Christ is creating a family, a community that people can be known, and we're gonna move towards them, and we're gonna be patient and walk alongside them as God does what only God can do. And we're gonna have hard conversations and we're gonna challenge one another and we're gonna disagree at times, but man, when Jesus just does what only he can do, I mean, that is awesome. And and the three of us are declarations of that. As I look at the two of you, you are a declaration of the faithfulness of God. And like that's to me is amazing.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:58

So I want to share an encouraging scripture for all three of us and anybody that's listening, you know, that you know, God meets you where you're at, and once he's in your life, um, this verse really applies uh Philippians 1 6. Being confident of this very thing that he who hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. So he will just continue to work in your life, change your heart, change your mind, you know, give you a heart of repentance. Um are we getting close to the end here?

SPEAKER_00 1:31:39

I love that. Let me look. I think so. Yes. Yes. I did make notes. I know I'm a I'm an outward processor, which uh is a gift to my family.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:52

Maybe not always, but uh yeah, I think I I think I no if there's if there's if we've missed anything I think I've walked through you know when we spoke about like oh podcasting, we're we're we're a work in progress ourselves. So by all means, if there's more that you want to speak on, we we have the time, if you have the time, if not then I I am good.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:15

I I think again as as you guys have walked into this, I I I just think that knowing each other's stories is one of the most powerful things that we can share. And when that happens, when you hear again, we'll identify with different people's story. Like there there will be people that will listen to your guys' stories that will identify. There will be people listen to my story, identify the the importance is it's a story of brokenness and death that leads to life in Christ. And and the way he does that to me, it it is just beautiful. So I I just want to encourage you as you continue in this, the stories that you put on here, but also the stories that people will share with you that won't be on here. I I just as you carry those, as you walk with people in that, I I just think you're gonna see God do amazing things. And some things you'll see this side of heaven. I and I I believe that there are some things that are taking place this side of heaven that we will not know until we're with Jesus. Um that that that I because I I think about this so often. Um that day my mom had the conversation with me at the kitchen counter. She um she did not get to see all of the fruit of that. But but someday in heaven we're gonna celebrate that together. And and so there's there's seeds that you're planting. There's some you'll get to see come to harvest, but there's others that you won't, but keep spreading that and just I I I I love as you're uh creating an environment for people to tell their stories. I just I think that's powerful. And you will hear those common themes brokenness, a person trying to find this counterfeit to gain life out of. And then Jesus transforms and changes, and we come to the end ourselves, and his pursuit of us in the days that we get it, and as his pursuit of us in the days that we're running the other direction to me is so powerful about who he is. And you get a front row seat of hearing people's stories of that, which I think is powerful. It's so awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:47

Yeah. And just in the the few as we're getting underway going, I I told Alicia, you know, to sit across a we had a guy, JD, that I had never met until the day he came and we sat down together, and I told her there's just something. I mean, give me there's just something in hearing another man's story, struggles that he has internally as a father, yeah, as a husband. It's all things that we're dealing with.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:16

And it it it's so important to talk about because for some reason in society it's become a thing to where you just gotta put this mask on, keep your chest out, and just walk through life. Why suffer in silence? It one, it's not worth suffering because you think you you're alone and you're really not. So it it's I I love I love that you know, I I think you said it, and just there's so much power and just sharing your our stories, yeah, we'll take a what take the stigma out of the room and just allow you to be who you are as people. It's it's great.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:52

And and I think as men in particular, I I think that one of the things that you look at my lineage of uh men in my life and very disconnected and silent. And I I think that is a ploy of the enemy to somehow as men kind of disconnected us. And and we we get this message like, well, you know, women share what they're going through. That's that's for them. And yeah, yeah, here's the thing when we watch movies of men coming together, whether it's a sports movie or whether it's a war movie, there's something in us as men that starts to get chills. Like this idea that we can walk together as men and share our stories with one another. And and and outside of all of the ideas that the world has given us about what a man is, that we can walk with each other. And actually, it's our weakness that we share with one another that he just becomes strong in and that we are for one another, but the enemy wants. I I just specific, I think it's true of everyone, but I I do believe specifically as men to keep us disconnected from even our own selves, but to one another, it's again another ploy of the enemy, and there's something powerful that when we share our stories and when we're vulnerable with who Jesus is, like that that that is a strength, that is a power that transforms families, that transforms generations. I I I and this is one of the things my mom talked a lot about, and I I believe I believe because of what God has done in the two of you, I believe there will be great, great grandkids that will never meet you this side of heaven that will be impacted because you have done this work of seeing Jesus transform and change you, that will impact your children's children's children. I I just believe that every everyone's accountable for their own faith. But I believe the things that you guys do right now, I believe the things that that I walk in right now, I think have impact for my great-great-great-great grandson. That I'll never know this side of heaven. I do believe that he does that for a thousand generations. And I and that to me is powerful as you think about. I mean, if you give yourself time to think about that, that's that's that's the story that you're walking out of dependency upon Jesus that is going to impact generations in your family and in my family.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:55

Amen.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:56

Um I'm done.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:59

Well, you know, at the end of every episode, you know, the goal of the Testimony Table Podcast is to spread the gospel. Yeah. Right? That's the main reason we want people to know the good news of Christ. So at the end of episode, every episode, I like to, you know, just talk to the listener and let them know, no matter where you're at, what you're going through, there's no amount of sin you can commit that Christ can't pull you out of. So if you want to start a relationship with Christ, you know, one of my favorite verses is Romans 10 9. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Um, John 3.16, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. So no matter where you're at in life, whatever it takes, however you want to say the prayer, but just ask Jesus into your heart, believe that God raised him from the dead. And like Philippians 1 6, 2 says, being confident of this very thing that he who hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. So he will meet you where you're at, and if you accept him, he will start to change your life. So I just like to end every episode with a call to Christ, I guess you might call it.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:36

So I'm not gonna let you get out of here without a couple of things. Your sermon. Every week I find myself talking to Alicia saying he's talking right to me. I stared up at the stage and I'm like, I've called Brandon a couple of times. Like, man, that has been on my heart this week. You you do such awesome work, Peter. Thank you for that. And two, um, you can pass this on to Heidi. Her Mother's Day sermon was very, very impactful. Yes. That was on Alicia's heart that day. There was something in Alicia that was just beautiful. And I I want you to pass that on to her because it was awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:15

Very cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:16

Thank you so much for coming and speaking. Your story was was great and impactful, and I'm so glad that we had that time until I got to know you a little bit better. Privileged to be with both of you.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:27

Absolutely. Cornerstone Alliance Church, Sunday at ten forty-five AM and nine AM.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:32

And nine AM early if you want to get away. Child care at the ten forty five. There you go. Yeah. So thank you.

unknown 1:41:39

Welcome.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:40

Thank you, Peter.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:41

Cool. Awesome.