The Testimony Table Podcast
Welcome to The Testimony Table Podcast, where real people share real stories of transformation. Each episode, we invite guests to open up about how encountering Jesus pulled them out of darkness and into a life of hope. Whether you’re seeking encouragement, or just love hearing how faith changes lives, pull up a seat at the table. You’re welcome here!
The Testimony Table Podcast
Pastor Steve
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In this episode, we sit down with Pastor Steve Estep for a powerful conversation on faith, scripture, and real-life transformation. Pastor Steve dives deep into the Bible to break down timeless truths and shares the heart behind Celebrate Recovery—a Christ-centered program designed to help people overcome their hurts, hangups, and habits.
Whether you’re looking to deepen your understanding of God's Word, searching for hope in the middle of a personal struggle, or curious about how recovery and faith intersect, this conversation offers encouragement, practical wisdom, and practical steps toward healing.
What's up everyone? Welcome to the Testimony Table Podcast.
SPEAKER_04The podcast where it's real stories, real struggles, and real miracles. How everyday people share how Jesus has changed their lives forever.
SPEAKER_03Amen.
SPEAKER_04And I'm Brandon, and we're both your hosts, and we're seriously glad you're here today.
SPEAKER_02This show is all about giving God the glory, telling the truth, and bringing hope to people who need it most. In our show, we can lean heavy into a theme of recovery because Jesus doesn't just forgive, He restores, He heals, He delivers, He can pull you out of anything.
SPEAKER_04Addiction, depression, anxiety, brokenness, shame.
SPEAKER_02He can turn your mess into a message and your pain into purpose. We believe Jesus is still moving today and testimonies still have power.
SPEAKER_03And we are here to fulfill the mission he gave us, the great commission, to go, to tell, and to make disciples.
SPEAKER_02So pull up a seat, lean in, and get ready. Because your faith is about to become stronger than you ever thought possible.
SPEAKER_04Alright, let's get into it.
SPEAKER_02Alright.
SPEAKER_04Alright, uh, well, I always like to open up with prayer, uh, so let me do that real quick and Heavenly Father, thank you so much for this day, for this beautiful day. And I thank you for Pastor Steve Estep, Lord. Um as he has impacted my life. And we pray that you speak through him, Lord, and that we can glorify your name, Lord, and further your kingdom as we dedicate this podcast to you, Lord, and dedicate this episode. We thank you for your presence, and we love you so much. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen. Amen. All right. Well, we got Pastor Steve Estep here. So kind of tell us a little bit about yourself. Morning, guys.
SPEAKER_01Uh, thanks for the invitation to be a part of this today. So I have the privilege, I say I had the best job in the world. I serve as the lead pastor at Marion Nas, which is downtown Marion, and uh just celebrated our ninth anniversary there. So loving life, enjoying the work. Um, but outside of that, I'm I'm a dad uh to three adult kids. Michelle and I have been married. It'll be 35 years in November. She's my best friend, and besides Jesus, the best thing that ever happened to me. Wow, 35 years, man. Yeah. We have we have five grandkids and one on the way, and they're all local, so we get to see them a lot. And uh I'm I'm just really I feel like I'm the most blessed man on the planet, man. To have a a job I get to go to every day where I get to do something that matters with a lot of really amazing people, and uh to get a front row seat of what God's doing in Marion is it I don't know that it gets any better than that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I agree. That's awesome. So um, you know, I met you through Celebrate Recovery as I'm a recovering alcoholic. Um could you tell us a little bit about Celebrate Recovery, where it is, you know, what what it's about, and like how people can absolutely.
SPEAKER_01So Celebrate Recovery is a Christ-centered 12-step. So the steps are the same as you'd find in AA or NA. Uh the big difference being we don't talk about a quote higher power, it is all Jesus, 100%. Amen. So the ministry of Celebrate Recovery started in like 1990 out in California with uh Rick Warren Church, uh, Saddleback Church. He had a guy on staff named John Baker that came from a recovery background, and he was like, Man, all these steps and they're it's rooted in scripture. So he developed eight principles and uh biblical comparisons that go with that. So celebrate recovery is working the same steps um with the awareness that the only way you get really get better is with the power of Jesus in your life and uh surrounded by a community that's trying to help you get it right. So we started CR here in Marion in 2015. I actually wasn't here yet. Um I came in 2017, but um in 2020 it took a lot of turns and in a good way. We added a kid and teen element to it, and so it's a full-fledged for the entire family birth to as old as you can get. Every Thursday night at Mary Nazz, 233 West Church Street. We have a meal at six and gather round tables for a delicious. I mean, this is not like cafeteria that they our team does a great job with a meal that's worth coming for.
SPEAKER_04I I can attest.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and it's at round tables, so we're really trying to build that family feel. And um, we say at the church that we don't do meals for people, we do meals with people. And um, so then from seven to eight is a program, and it's a high-energy, uh really great environment of uh support and encouragement where one week you're gonna get a teaching, the next week you're gonna get a testimony. Um and I it's my favorite place to be on a Thursday night. It's uh if it's not the it's uh one of the largest CRs uh certainly in Ohio and probably way beyond that.
SPEAKER_04Oh, really? I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_01Typically see around we've been seeing around 300 a night on Thursday night, everybody included, and um yeah, it's a great environment. I I I love it. We we find a lot of joy in helping other places get started too. This last week we had people from Cedar Creek, uh, which is between uh Bowling Green and Toledo. They already have a CR, but they don't have the kid and teen element to it, so they were there to take a tour and get some insight and meet with our team, and um, and then some guys from Mount Gillian did are gonna try to get one started up there too. So we really delight in not only being a part of it in Marion, but helping others get it started as well.
SPEAKER_03And we spoke off camera, and as I just got to experience it for the first time just a few weeks ago. What a cool atmosphere. Yeah. And I walked in, and everybody's inviting and welcoming, and the energy, that's what I went to most was just the high energy. It's it's called celebrate recovery, and boy, it is a celebration. Yes. At the end when they rapped, and everyone was able to get their time recognized and come up, and the audience is just on their feet, hooting and ha. I mean, what a cool worship group that is, and to celebrate everybody that's involved. I I was so impressed.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01I I I would encourage anybody that's listening, come be a part. For sure. And if you're listening, you're not from the Marion area, go to the Celebrate Recovery website, they have a list of all the different locations. Go check it out, get involved. It's uh it's a it's a phenomenal ministry. A lot of people think that it's only for people who have substance uh problems or disorders. The tagline is hurts, habits, and hang-ups. So it's for any human. Uh, we've all been hurt. We've all probably developed habits that were not holy and and need help of the Holy Spirit to overcome. It's not just drugs and alcohol, it can be codependent relationships, folks who deal with anxiety, depression, grief, self-harm. It doesn't matter. Uh it's an environment where healing happens. So I encourage people to come check it out.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I can I I can't praise it enough, honestly. I mean, the the true work of Jesus is being done there. And I I feel like if Jesus was here today, he would be at Celebrate Recovery on Thursday nights because I don't know. I mean, that's where my sober journey started. You know, I I went to the altar and I pleaded with God sobbing.
SPEAKER_01I remember that night.
SPEAKER_04I can't do this anymore, and God miraculously took away my cravings. And that's not to say that I didn't have to put work in to stay sober by keeping my eyes on Jesus, reading the Bible daily and and um saturating my mind with worship music, and because that's what it takes keeping your eyes on Jesus, right? He'll you know, he'll take you out of the dark place, but a relationship requires two people, you know. You have to put in a little work too, but there's so much good work going on there, and just to see all these broken people, we're all broken in some way, that just love God, love Jesus with all their heart, and I don't know, it's just amazing, and and you don't like you said, you don't have to be an addict to go. If you want to see the healing power of God happen right before your eyes, yeah, go to celebrate recovery.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_04So thank you for sharing that. Um and just to let the listeners know, the theme, the loose theme of this episode is you know proving that Jesus is God through the Bible. Uh-huh. Um, you know, we we you and I briefly texted, you know, we can't, and and you had mentioned, I don't know if we can prove it, but you know, I think we can prove it using the Bible that Jesus is God, but like you said, I don't want we can't prove that to someone that the Bible is the right true word of God, and that's the standard, and that's what we're supposed to go by. But so, you know, if you were going to try to prove that Jesus is God through the Bible, what would you do? And and I just want to mention there's several religions that do not believe that Jesus is God. Right, right. You've got the Jehovah's Witnesses, they don't believe Jesus, they actually even changed the Bible to fit their narrative, the New World Translation, and then you have Islam, you know, they believe he's a prophet, but so yeah, I'll give you the formula.
SPEAKER_01Um this is a great conversation, and and one of the things I think is really interesting is that we're not the first people to have this. Like in the history of Christianity, the first four centuries, they were really trying to iron out what do we really believe about the nature of God in the person of Jesus. And um there were all kinds of things that were determined to be heretical. And I don't know like if you guys have ever done much with church history or not. I this is like drawn from 30 years ago when I was taking classes and preparing for ministry, but um like here let me just give you a few of them. Yeah. So uh Docetism claimed that Jesus was purely divine and only seemed to have a physical body.
SPEAKER_04That's Docetism?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, D-O-C-E-T-I-S-M. Um, adoptionism was a belief that Jesus was born an ordinary human, but later, quote, adopted as the Son of God, um, like at his baptism. Um there's Arianism. This was a big one, um, that taught that uh that Jesus was a created subordinate being rather than the eternal God. Uh and that one gained a lot of traction. We're again, we're talking like the first 400 years of of the church. Um there are other ones of Polyanarianism, Nestorianism, uh, monothelitism. There all these like nuances where people are really trying to figure out who is Jesus. They're all reading the same Bible, they're all seeing the same stories, but there was a lot of difficulty that people had in this whole idea that he was 100% God and 100% man at the same time. So what what came of that were uh different councils in church history. So Council of Nicaea, Council of Chalcedon, these were gatherings of like the greatest theological minds of the day uh within Catholicism. Um, and because basically at that point, if you were Christian, you were either Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic, and that's what you were. So those were the ones that were trying to kind of hammer this out. And uh out of these councils came uh creedal statements. So uh the Nicene Creed is a it is it's a longer, it's all about uh what we're talking about today. Okay, who was Jesus? What was he, uh, how does that relate to his divinity and his humanity? And they really started fleshing that out. And then there was a shorter uh that came a little bit later. So we're talking like 325 AD, when all this stuff is really starting to get solidified in what's going to be orthodoxy or right teaching and what's heretical. So by by the end of the fourth century, they're pretty well landed on the Nicene Creed, the Apostles' Creed, which is Trinitarian. I believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only son, our Lord, who was, and it talks about Jesus, uh, conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and was buried. He descended into Hades. The third day he rose again, he ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the living and the dead, and we believe in the Holy Spirit. The Holy Catholic, that's a universal, not Roman Catholic Church, but Catholic as in the whole church, Catholic Church, the communion of saints, uh, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of body, and life everlasting. So these become then Nicene Creed, Apostles' Creed, kind of litmus tests for orthodoxy. What we believe to be true about about God as Father, Son, and Spirit.
SPEAKER_04What is orthodoxy? Right, explain that.
SPEAKER_01So ortho is right, doxy or doxa is doctrine.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_01So uh you get like doctrine. Yeah. Yeah. Or orthopraxy is right practice, or yeah. Cool. So these were things that the early churches are wrestling with as Christianity, as a movement, as a theology, as a doctrine, is trying to find uh like the foundational pieces. So uh some of the implications for that today is like you guys go to Cornerstone, Pastor Peter, great guy. There are some there are some theological differences between um groups within the church. So Baptists are gonna believe a little bit different than Nazarenes, a little bit different than Methodists, um other characters. Pentecostals. Exactly, exactly. But what what these creeds do is they form like this is the one, these are the things we we all agree on. God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Jesus is 100% God, 100% man, and the only only one in whom we find salvation. So these are the these are the common ground areas that we can be like, I don't care what names above the church. Are you about Jesus? Do you confess the creeds? Then we're on the we're enough on the same page to uh to go from there, right? But it was painful. There there were folks that really tried to be godly people who could not get their mind wrapped around what you and I would say. Well, that's just how it is. They they were trying to sort it out, and so it created division and schism within the church, uh, as folks who were with Arian, and they are like, well, we think he's got it figured out. So uh, and then the church said to them, No, you're you guys are you're heretics. So uh then then you know it'd be like your cousin or your, you know, one of your good buddies that that ends up having a way of thought that's totally no, this isn't right, and happened to say that to them in a way that then created distance between you. This is happening a lot the first four centuries of the church specifically, as they're ironing out like, what do we believe about God?
SPEAKER_04That's still happening today, it's it's happening in our conversation. So it's still over 2,000 years later, it still happened.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. So that's one of the reasons why I'm like, man, this is this is a cool conversation. Yeah. And you know, when we're texting them back and forth, can we prove that, you know, like the deity of Jesus in Scripture? Yeah, absolutely. My my comment was, but if somebody doesn't believe the Bible, yeah, then you know they're not gonna believe anything about it anyway.
SPEAKER_04So absolutely, but I would encourage anybody who doesn't believe, just start with Jesus. Um try to prove that Jesus didn't exist. I would challenge anybody out out there listening, try to prove that Jesus didn't exist and start there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it because that to your point earlier, even those that aren't Christian, I mean, if you read history, there's no denying that. So even folks within Islam or other traditions who don't acknowledge that Jesus is God, nobody says that he didn't, that he didn't show up. Like he was for real.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, right, exactly. So that's good.
SPEAKER_03I think as someone that's pretty new in my faith journey, you know, to to hear those words, Jesus is God, and my in my mind growing up outside the church, not a disbeliever, but just not in the church, getting the teachings as I was brought up. God was an entity and Jesus was a person. So sometimes I catch myself saying, God and Jesus. Is that wrong?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I I I don't think that's wrong necessarily at all. I mean, uh the Trinity is a difficult concept, like yeah. I I mean we're not gonna solve that here, and we're not like so I guess the the core to that is that uh the father, son, and spirit, and this is a old uh uh um homeousius, it's a they're the same substance. So when we talk about that they are the same substance, father, son, and spirit. So there are differences. I mean, um th you know, the old hymn um holy, holy, holy God in three persons.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So three persons but one one God. So uh you know, we talk about God the Father as creator as and but Colossians brings Jesus in as being a part of that too. So um and so here one of the ways I like it is we got we got God the Father. We have Jesus who is a God with us, Emmanuel, and the Holy Spirit who becomes God within us. So same God, one God. Yeah. Uh and and that's one of the things that folks had trouble with seeing Christianity as monotheistic or being one, you know, we're talking about one God here, not uh multiple, uh because this whole concept of Trinity, it's it's it's uh yeah, there's nothing simple about it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and to your point, like you ask if that's wrong. You to say God, I mean Allah, that just means God. So it's about the intent, the belief behind it. You believe in Jesus. You to say I believe in God, I know you're saying you believe in Jesus as God.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, the the Trinity. What what a good explanation. And like I said, it's maybe elementary to some people that's grown up in it, but man, my I'm my my heart is just open.
SPEAKER_01Oh man, there's nothing elementary about the Trinity at all. Yeah. No scholars that have like studied their whole life and written and read, and there's no, it's it's we're not talking about uh this is not milk, this is meat. And is it kind of conversation?
SPEAKER_04I to me that's just in my mentality, that's just more proof of an almighty God. I mean, he presents himself in scripture as this, as the Trinity, and I don't completely understand it, and I'm not gonna lie.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_04Honestly, I I can don't completely understand it, but I want to. And but how can I completely understand a God that created me and the entire universe and everything that I mean, how can you not be in awe of his creation?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we gotta get comfortable with not knowing and taking things on faith and being able to embrace mystery. Like to your point, uh Brandon, if if we could understand everything about God, like he'd be pretty small.
SPEAKER_00Right? Right.
SPEAKER_03What a what a great way to say that because it's the faith is everything, and I'm learning that as I continue you know going towards Christ and absorbing the information from the Bible that I can. Faith is everything, and I've said it before, you know, once my heart was open to that and I started absorbing the information, a lot of it is based on faith. But if you can have faith, there's there's a lot of things in life that are faith-based that people don't consider that they're told it's scientific, and that's just not true. Right. Yeah. You're believing something that's never been proven. So you're putting your faith somewhere, and when you put it in Christ, man, the world gets a little bit brighter, and the legs get a little bit lighter. It's it's such a beautiful thing, man.
SPEAKER_04You're a poet and you don't even know it.
SPEAKER_01There you go. And I think it's really cool. Faith doesn't mean you check your brain in the door. I mean, you get into the word, like you're saying, read it for yourself, see what God has to say to you. Like, be a learner, be a be a student, as well as um going to the word for it's a relationship that's being built with the God who loves me. Like we don't want to just turn it into a textbook, but there's a lot of value in learning what it has to say. Um, ours is a thinking faith. It's it's always meant to be that. Like there's a lot to sort out there, but the intent is not that we just become smart Christians, but that with the everything we learn, we learn how to love him better. And we learn how to love other people the way that he's called us to. Sorry to get off on a tangent here with that, but Paul talked about that in 1 Corinthians 13. Like, we could be the smartest people on the planet, we could solve every problem right here at this table, but if it was but if we don't show love, none of it means a thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because that's that's what it's about. Jesus, God is love. He so yeah, we want to stretch ourselves, we want to learn like crazy, we want to explore, but at the end of the day, if it doesn't serve the purpose of making us look more like Jesus, then um uh not a lot of benefit in it.
SPEAKER_04Right. So um what uh scriptures would you use to kind of prove Jesus is Jesus is God?
SPEAKER_01Um let me I feel like I'm talking a lot, which I've got a ton more to say, but let me put let me put that back on you. Like, are there some that's a good thing?
SPEAKER_03Can I can I start because when when we when we spoke of it, I I just did a quick like where a little question to guide me in the right direction, and one of the first ones that that came up that I that it really absorbed to me that I seen was John 1 in the beginning was the word, the word was with God, and the word was God. And then you jump forward to verse 14. The word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Speaking of Jesus, absolutely, the word is God, Jesus is the word, amen. He became flesh and was brought on. And the first one I came to, and I it I don't know if it was Jesus, but but it was like I've read this before through, and I didn't catch it. And then just with the topic of that's one of the hardest things as a as a relatively young Christian Christ seeker absorbing myself in the Bible is getting absorbing some of the word, you know, because if if you're not looking for it, Brandon's been a huge help to me to understand. Well, this isn't necessarily literal. You're you're reading it, and if you're reading it and trying to take everything literal, there's a lot of stuff hidden in there. So as you start learning more on how to absorb the information, it becomes a little clearer. So just just to kick it off, that was one that I'm like Yeah, that's obviously great scripture.
SPEAKER_04That's the yeah, it's the one that ties it all together. I mean, it it's literally so the Jehovah's Witnesses, they just come to mind when because I've debated Jehovah's Witnesses about this passage, and they literally change it to in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was a God. Wow. Yeah, they change it um to fit their narrative because they don't they actually believe that Jesus is the Archangel Michael, which is just wild to me. Um so uh I've got a whole spiel here, man.
SPEAKER_01Let me can we can we oh yeah, yeah, true around true on this one just a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Uh so for believer like folks who may be listening to podcasts that are like new to Christianity or the Bible, um the New Testament starts with four Gospels. The word gospel means good news. So the first three, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, they take kind of a linear approach to uh the life of Jesus. Gonna kind of kind of follow the the timeline of, you know, like Matthew starts with the birth, Luke starts with the birth, they go through the resurrection, Mark doesn't uh start the story until Jesus is an adult and he begins his public ministry, but but it's chronic more chronological. John's different. John's is not as much chronological as it is theological. So, you know, uh there's this connection. The first book of the Bible in Genesis, in the beginning, God created John in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God. There's a poetic and image-rich way that John writes that it's different than the other three. So, for example, John never uses the word miracle. He uses the word sign. So, what's a sign do? It points you to something.
SPEAKER_04All right, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And the reason this is really big for our conversation this morning is that um throughout the book of John, Jesus will say multiple times, I am. I am the way, the truth, and the life. I am the the good shepherd, I am the resurrection and the life, I I am divine. So um for a Jewish audience that would have some of them would have been like listening to or reading what John wrote, uh I am goes all the way back to Exodus when uh when Moses is like, hey, you you want me to go meet with Pharaoh, who who should I tell him sent me?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And God's answer, you tell him I am sent you.
SPEAKER_03I r I read on that, and uh that was another one that that I got led to. Um and I never I didn't didn't know that I am had such significance to it.
SPEAKER_01So every time Jesus says that, this isn't just that other people are saying about him, hey, we think this may be God. This is Jesus saying, Yeah, you're right, I am. Yeah, and John picks up on that more than any of the other writings.
SPEAKER_04Well, I have it right here in John chapter 8, um, verse 58. I mean, this is huge, verse 58. Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am. That is so you gotta put yourself in the culture. If you know, as the listener, you you have to realize that the Pharisees and the Sadducees, when they heard that, they knew this guy just called himself God. Because they know they knew Exodus, right? The New Testament wasn't written yet, but they knew God called himself I am. So you just they they called him a blasphemer, and and you know, basically that's why they crucified him. Because he said this. And you know, you you brought up the verse. I I just like to read the verses. Yeah, you Exodus 3 14. Um God said to Moses, I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites, I am has sent me to you. So I just wanted to read those verses.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's good. Thank you for uh putting an address on that. Yeah, it's good. But yeah, John. John is probably the first that he's the foremost. When you want to ask the question, how does the scripture prove that Jesus was was God, it's John's gospel is gonna be you you could spend a lifetime in that.
SPEAKER_04Well, um so people like to use, you know, people that would want to debate this that Jesus isn't God, they'll like, well, you can only prove that Jesus is God using the New Testament. And so I'd like to challenge that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_04So and I think it's i i it's it's a little more in-depth. Um so it in Genesis 1, 2, it says, Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the waters. So right there we have the spirit right shown in the old testament. Then if we go to Psalm 104, 29 through 30, it says, When you hide your face, they are terrified. When you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust. When you send your spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the ground. So we see here the spirit has created. When you send your spirit, they are created. So again, that's one attribute of the Trinity. Then if we go to Job 33, 4, the Spirit of God has made me, the breath of the Almighty gives me life. So we can see that the Holy Spirit is creating.
SPEAKER_01Right. Um so uh time out right there.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_01Uh in in Genesis, whenever whenever God breathes life, so he forms Adam out of the dust, and until God breathes life into him, he's you know, what do you call a body without air? It's a corpse. Yeah, right? Yeah. So God breathes into him, and the word there is uh ruach in the Hebrew, and it means wind or spirit. So we see that word throughout the New Testament or Old Testament in scriptures, like you're talking about now. And um, and then he became the birth agent of the church on the day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2, when it talks about the wind of the Holy Spirit blowing into the upper room and filling them. Um that that's the birth of the church, like the church is born on that day like Adam was, like Adam came to life in Genesis. The church comes to life empowered now by the wind, the ruck, the breath of God living in it, living in us, uh, to enable us to go, to go like fulfill the mission to make disciples and to tell the world, hey, Jesus is who he said he was.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. Um, but then we still have this um theme in the Bible that God is one, right? Uh Deuteronomy 6.4, hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Um so and then I have John 1 1 written as well, so we know that in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God, and then to you know, verse 14, and the word became flesh and made his dwelling among among us. Um, so we can see now that the word is distinct from the spirit. So now we have two, right? Right. Um again we have Job 35, 10, but no one says, Where is God my maker who gives songs in the night? So this word my maker is so if you go to the Hebrew, it's the Hebrew word osei, which is a plural word, it means my makers or or my creators, so it's plural. So, you know, that this is what people have tried to understand for thousands of years, right? Like, why is it and then you know, we have the that's not the only place we have plural language, you know. We have um I know you of course you know, but just for the listeners, you know, in Genesis 1, 26, and God said, Let us make man in our image after our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the air. So just the beginning of that, there there's plural language. Um we can see that well, why does in Deuteronomy says the Lord is one, yet we see plural language. That's where we came up with the word Trinity, right? It's not in the Bible, but that's how we explain it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um so just to to kind of bring it all together, um in 1 John 5 7, this is the King James version, it says, For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. I mean, that one kind of pulls all together for me to to show the Trinity. You have three distinct persons that are one. Now, again, I already said I don't completely understand in my small human brain, uh, but that's how God has chosen to present himself to us. Now, I have a question for you. I want to try to explain how I think of the Trinity, and I want you to because you know you you're further along in your faith and know a lot more than me as a pastor. Um because it does say that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father, right? So in my mind, visually, I see two people, right? The Father and the Son sitting there, and then I I imagine the Holy Spirit is is the essence of the Father and the Son. They all work together, they're three distinct three distinct persons. Now I don't have this verse pulled up, but the Bible talks about marriage, right? A man and a woman coming together and they become one flesh.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_04Right. And to me that means they're one in essence. You know, we we make decisions together, we do we're one in in essence, but we're still distinctly separate. Is it wrong to imagine God as three people that are like together, making decisions together, you know, just moving in and out of one another? And I I I I imagine they could become one person right in front of you, but they could also separate into three people, but they're still one. That's kind of how my mind imagines it. Does that because I I I've heard there's I and this is just me, I've learned this recently, partialism and modalism. Have you heard of those? Yeah. So I don't want to I don't want to be a heretic. I I just want to understand the Trinity. Is under is thinking of it in that way. What do you think about that?
SPEAKER_01Uh I think it's like almost impossible for us to find um an image, uh a metaphor. Um it's I don't know, it's like it's be it's beyond that, and so anything we can come up with is gonna be a yes but. Like, yeah, but uh so yeah, you know, I've heard people describe it like um describe the Trinity as say we got H2O. In one form it's ice, in one form it's water, and one form it's is gas, right? Yeah, but it's all H2O.
SPEAKER_04Is that modalism or partialism?
SPEAKER_01Uh it's neither of those. This is um back to this substance conversation. One one one God, one like DNA, one again, it's uh they're all inadequate.
SPEAKER_04Isn't it interesting that H2O it's two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen? So it's like you got the father and the son, those are your two atoms of hydrogen, and then oxygen would be the Holy Spirit. That's how I think of it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. Um it's it's it's challenging. And I whatever image that you that you come up with, I think the the the main point is that do we understand, do we believe, have we experienced that God is one God, but He is Father, Son, and Spirit. And uh I I this is one of those where I'm like, I don't think I'm ever gonna get my mind wrapped around that, but experientially, you know, when you were talking about your prayer life, um, Matt, sometimes I find myself talking to the Father. Uh sometimes I'm praying and I'm envisioning a conversation with Jesus. And there are other times whenever I need I need wisdom or I need empowerment, and I'm I'm like, Holy Spirit, I I need you. Like, so I think they're interchangeable, and I don't know that the father or the son gets irritated when I say, Holy Spirit, I'm talking to you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01I don't, I don't know. But I know one thing, he's he's for us and he's with us, and he's within us, and he gives us everything we need to get it right. So uh if my you know I I think about a lot of stuff. Paul says in at the end of the love chapter in 1 Corinthians 13, we see in part and we know in part, but when we see him, we'll know fully, even as we're fully known. There's probably all kinds of things that when we get to heaven, he's gonna be like, nice try. That that was close, but or you were so far off, but you you knew me, you trusted me, you loved me, you wanted me to work in your life, and I did, and I'm I'm glad you're here. Like I I a lot of this stuff that kind of intrigues us now, I don't I don't think it's gonna matter when we see him.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, well, okay, so the reason my mind kind of imagines three distinct people that I can visually see that in my mind could become one right in front of my eyes and and still be three. Uh and but sorry, I digress. One of the reasons why is in Genesis 18 um the three visitors, it says the Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance to his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground. So in this instance, God chooses to reveal himself to Abraham as three people. And it so that's kind of why I don't know. Yeah, I can't ever completely understand it, but it just I try to be able to visualize and understand the best I can. And it's it appears I mean the Bible tells me right here that God can appear to people as three people. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So, yeah, like you said, we're not gonna solve this right here in an hour podcast, but um but the biblical witness is very clear that not only did other people believe that Jesus was God in the flesh with them, but Jesus presented himself that way. So, whenever you're gonna say something.
SPEAKER_03Well, j just on I had went to to this more John 20 uh 28. Thomas said to him, My Lord and my God, and then Jesus told him, Because you Seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen yet do believe and have believed. So, I mean, that's flesh. There, there's people all through the New Testament that refer to Jesus as my Lord, my my God, and that was an example of it. And he he's always, you know, don't go tell what you've seen here. This is these are what I did, but they always go and tell, and the and the words spread, and and so I didn't mean to interrupt. I apologize.
SPEAKER_01No, that's good. Uh it yeah, these miracles that people can't keep quiet about them. So one of those is whenever he heals. Uh remember the story where uh the house is full of people, and uh these four guys bring their buddy who's paralyzed, and there's the house is so full that they can't get in. So somebody has this genius idea, let's get this dude up on the roof, and they tear a hole in the roof and lower him down. And the first thing that Jesus says to him is not uh, great faith, this is awesome, I'm gonna heal you. The first thing he says to him is, your sins are forgiven. And the Pharisees and the religious leaders that are there, their first reaction is nobody can do that except for God.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And Jesus is like, Yep. Which is easier to say your sins are forgiven, or to say, take your mat, get up and get on. And he says, So so that you'll know. Get up and take your mat. So I love this is one of those like Jesus' in your face kind of moments where he literally is saying, I am claiming to be God because I am.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01And I and I do have the authority to forgive sins. So I'm doing it. And just so you'll know that this is legit, hey, go ahead and be healed of your paralysis too. And this is I I love that scene. I I think it's like one of those core critical you want to know if Jesus is God? Well, he said he was. So he's either, you know, for folks who say he was a prophet or a good man or whatever, here's the thing Jesus was either the son of God or he was a lunatic who claimed to be somebody that he wasn't. And as Christians, we say he was the son of God. God in the flesh come to be with us and to give his life for us. And he didn't just do that as a good guy, yeah, he did it as God.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And and you know, for if he was man, you know, when they're at when they're out to sea and he's sleeping, and everybody's watching this storm rage, and they're like, We're gonna die. Yeah. And he wakes up and he's like, calms the seas. That I mean, the things that people beared witness to of him, you know, I think that takes the lunatic out of it because clearly he backed it up. Yeah, you know, he was able to perform these miracles that that nobody had seen before, and someone that could calm nature. What else could you be besides the right hand of God, you know, uh to possess those types of powers, I guess for a lack of a better word.
SPEAKER_01So uh UK if I take this a little like some folks have struggle believing that Jesus was God, and then it results in these kinds of conversations. Others have difficulty believing that he was he was completely human, and then that leads us down another track where where people would believe that the things that Jesus did, he was only able to do them because he was God. But he said, uh, my followers are gonna do greater things than I've done. And oftentimes we're like taken aback by a scripture like that. So we'll think, well, Jesus conquered the enemy whenever he was tempted in the wilderness, and he didn't give in. But I mean, after all, he was God. Well, the truth is the same spirit that was in Jesus is in us. So that's not a he was only able to do that because he was God. No, he's given us a picture about how we can all do it. Because we've got the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead, alive and well, within us. And uh one of the things that does when our like this is nitty-gritty everyday things about how we live. We can make excuses for our failures by equating sinfulness with humanity, humanness. They're not the same. Oftentimes, I've I used to say this, you guys have probably said it. Well, I'm only human. Well, no, whenever we live uh a life of sin or rebellion or weakness, we're not being human, we're being subhuman. Less than. If Jesus was a hundred percent man and God and he was sinless, then sinfulness and humanity are not the same, they're not synonymous. You track in with me?
SPEAKER_04Wow.
SPEAKER_01So this call to a holy life, to literally live it like Jesus did, is not an unattainable, here's a target you're never going to hit. Jesus said, I'm sending the Spirit because he's gonna help you. He's gonna teach you, He's gonna remind you, He's gonna convict you, He's gonna empower you. So when we live a a life of love for Jesus, empowered by the Spirit, sin loses its power over us. Like you guys that are coming out of legitimate addiction that one time ruled your life, it doesn't rule you anymore. You got a new master.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01And the same thing that applies to substances that we used to depend on, the more we depend on Jesus, the more we overcome everything that the enemy throws at us. And I just think like we live so far below what Jesus makes possible. And that's not to be like a holier than thou, we're all that. No, we're we're we're completely dependent on him. Jesus said in John John 5, apart from me, you can do nothing. We get that. But with him, sin, sin doesn't have to be our master. It we don't have to get whooped every day, waking up saying, How's he gonna hand it to me today? No, absolutely not. We we we literally can live the way Jesus showed us to do it. Um yeah, I I I can get fired up about this because I'm like, this is this is it, this is the Christian life is living with Jesus, living as Jesus did it, with the resources that Jesus had, the Holy Spirit within us.
SPEAKER_04And and how did he how did he um reject the enemy's temptations he use the the word of God against him?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04You know, and that's a powerful example of what we should do, you know.
SPEAKER_01And we can.
SPEAKER_04Right. And you know, to speak even more to that, Jesus tells us to you know, crucify ourselves daily, our flesh daily, because you know we we we battle against our flesh, right? So we have to crucify that daily. Um pick up our cross and follow him. You know, i it's it's a daily decision. And it's not easy.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01Nobody says it's easy. He said the he said in John 16, in this world you're gonna have trouble.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_01But take heart, because I've overcome the world.
SPEAKER_04Amen. And he says it it is finished, right? When he when he was crucified, he he completed it, he fulfilled it. So that's why we put our trust in him.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03That's right. And he's go ahead. No, no, man. I was gonna get something to go. Finish your thought. Um I apologize.
SPEAKER_04No, no, I just figured we're probably getting close to wrapping up.
SPEAKER_03Right, right. But just when you said this is the end, and this is this is like kind of real off the track, kind of, but not but I had never watched the movie The Passion of the Christ, and I went and watched uh church production of it up in Bucyrus this year for the first time, which drew me to buy the movie and watch it. And I know I'm real behind the eight-bowl in that movie, it was early 2000s, but if there are people that haven't seen that, man, you better bring your box of tissues to see what that man did for humanity that last day is just gut-wrenching. And for him to, you know, willingly, when when his disciples was gonna fight, when he put your swords away, this is and he predict he said it for days. I'm I'm gonna they're gonna take me. Right. And to see the brutality of what that act, I think sometimes it gets because it's such an ugly thing, it sometimes gets smoothed over when talked about. But I think the reality of seeing what he actually went through at the end for all of us, yeah, people should get that imagery, even though it's hard to watch and it's not for kids. Right. But any any adult person that wonders or or doubts, why would a man walk himself into that if he wasn't the truth in the way? Right. It it was just so powerful. And I I was 20 years behind the eight ball on watching it, but I'm so glad that I that I seen it because it really, man, it really hit the heart hard to understand that.
SPEAKER_01It's it's graphic, it's brutal, but I think it's true to how things went down with that. Yeah, you're right. I'd encourage the same thing. If people haven't seen it, give it a look.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And it's it's and I I think daily, you know, the Bible paints this picture of God the Father and me being a father, we're all fathers here. So, you know, the love we have for our son, and I know it's exponentially more Jesus' love for all of us, that you know, right? John 3 16, for God so loved the world, he be he sent his only begotten son that whoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life. For God Himself to become flesh and come down and die for for me and you and and everybody that's listening, the amount of love, there's nothing you can do that's gonna stop God from loving you. He's waiting for you to accept him.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_04And you know, I like to end every episode with a an altar call, if you will. Yeah, you know, and and one of my favorite verses is Romans 10 9. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. So anybody listening, there's no amount of sin you can do that will stop God from loving you.
SPEAKER_01That's right.
SPEAKER_04So just do what you gotta do to to find out what you want to know about Jesus, and you can't disprove that he even existed. So let's maybe try to read a little bit w what he said in in in the gospels and start there and and you know, pray to God, you know, I want you to be Lord over my life, and come into my heart, and I don't have all the answers, but I trust in you with all my heart, Lord. And you know, I just like to end with giving people a chance to accept Jesus as their savior.
SPEAKER_01So Yeah. You know, that's how John writes his gospel to get to the end of it, and he says, you know, if I wrote down everything, that there wouldn't be enough books in the world.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But these things were written. So that you may believe that Jesus was the Son of God, and by believing find life in his name. So I I love that. Amen. Uh Brandon. I I would just say amen to that. Anybody at all that's listening that doesn't yet know him, he loves you like crazy.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And uh he'll change your life for sure.
SPEAKER_04Right. Awesome.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. And you know, and coming into this process, you know, sometimes I fought through feeling almost fraudulent because I'm so early in my uh journey towards Christ. Brandon talked me down off that ledge and said, brother, as long as you're speaking true, then you're doing nothing fraud. You're doing nothing wrong. So for people that don't know, I'm very early in my journey towards Christ, you know, and the impact that it has is just unbelievable. You spoke about, you know, addictions ruin our lives, and then now we're living for a bigger cause, living for him. Right. And I had spoken before early that, you know, trying to tell a non-Christian how great life is when you allow Jesus into your heart is almost as frustrating as trying to tell an addict how great life is without the drugs. Right. It's almost the same battle. I know those are two ends of the spectrum, but it is almost the same battle. Steve, thank you so much for coming and talking to us. It's been really cool.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, thank you so much, Steve. It's it's been an honor, man.
SPEAKER_01So can I pray for you guys? Absolutely, dude. Jesus, thanks so much for this time together. And I and our prayer is that if uh there's anybody at all listening that maybe just curious about you or trying to figure things out, um that's evidence that you're already at work and you're drawing them to you. And so if if today would be the day that that any of them, any of anybody here and would say, Um, yeah, I I don't have it all figured out, but I do believe Jesus is who he said he was, and that he can do in me what he's done for the people that I see around me. That uh God they would allow you to become the forgiver of their sins and the leader of their life. Uh we rejoice that you came, you lived, you died, you gave yourself for us. That's a man, that's a sacrifice we're never going to be able to fully get our mind wrapped around, but we're sure glad you were willing to make it. There's never been a love like that. And in response, we we just want to love you too. We want to love you well and uh be responsive and obedient and cooperative with not only what you want to do in us, but what you want to do through us. Thank you. That you can use all of us, and I'm grateful for these guys. And saying yes to you for this podcast, I pray that it will be powerfully effective more than they ever imagined that it could be. And uh God keep us loving you and depending on you, and thanks for the gift that you've given us called today. We want to live it well, and uh, we will with your help in Jesus' name. Amen.
SPEAKER_04Amen.
SPEAKER_03One one just for closing, shout out the celebrate recovery schedule for Thursdays.
SPEAKER_01So dinner's at six, doors open, and uh come on in the upper level entrance, and uh from six to seven's dinner. From seven to eight is the big group gathering. From eight to nine, we do open chair groups. So that's men with men, women with women. If you got kids with you, they'll be taken care of the entire time in a safe environment where everybody's background checked. I mean, we take security very seriously. Uh Marion's is the safest place to be on a Thursday night, and uh we we work hard to keep it that way. So, yeah, come check it out. Uh, it doesn't obligate you to anything, but if you want to want to get in on what God's doing, a little piece of it in Marion, that's a great place to see it.
SPEAKER_04Amen.
SPEAKER_03Amen. Absolutely. Thanks again, Steve. Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_04Thanks, everybody.