Everyone sees the most visible part of a founder’s journey: the outcome. But the truth is that few understand the mindset, pressure, and discipline behind it.
This podcast explores the deeper system behind business and life. The beliefs, habits, and decisions that shape growth long before the numbers appear.
Through thoughtful conversations, Jarome McKenzie sits down with founders, operators, and thinkers who have built meaningful things. Together they explore the moments that shaped them, the pressure that forged their discipline, and the mindset behind their success.
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The result is an honest exploration of business, leadership, and intentional living. A look at how great builders think, make decisions, and design lives that matter.
How World-Class Hardware Gets Built & Why Your Word is Your Bond w/ Michael De Santis (Part 2) - Ep. 48
•Jarome McKenzie
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Welcome back to No Trade Secrets! We're jumping back in with product visionary Michael De Santis. In PART ONE, Michael unpacked the current state of product development and the mindset required to build what’s next.
In PART TWO, we're turning our eyes to the horizon to explore the execution and future of world-changing hardware. Who is best positioned to win the next hardware race: legacy giants or agile tech startups? How will tangible AI devices actually integrate into our daily lives? And what's the one non-negotiable principle for building relationships that last longer than any single product?
⏮️ Catch Up on PART ONE
💡 Unlocking the Playbook
The Partnership Playbook: Instead of trying to build everything in-house, the biggest wins in the next hardware revolution will come from strategic partnerships. Michael argues that giants like Apple are perfectly positioned not to compete with OpenAI or Anthropic on models, but to partner with them. The winning formula is smashing together world-class hardware manufacturers with best-in-class AI technology companies to create the next generation of devices.
Embrace the "Gen 2" Principle: The first version of any revolutionary product—from self-driving cars to humanoid robots—will be flawed. The key for both consumers and builders is patience. Michael points out that early adopters pave the way by enduring the bugs, but the real magic happens in generation two or three when the product becomes truly reliable and seamlessly integrated into our lives.
Hardware's Second Wave: The explosion in AI software has outpaced hardware, but a second wave of innovation is coming. Early attempts like AI pins and smart glasses are just the beginning, paving the way for more sophisticated devices. Michael envisions a future where ambient hardware, seamlessly integrated into our lives, can capture a passing thought and turn it into a completed task, like booking a flight, eliminating the day-to-day drudgery.
🤫 The No Trade Secret
Integrity is everything and your word is your bond. You must be forthright, forthcoming, and straightforward in every business dealing. When you lay your cards on the table and establish clear incentives, you build trust. That trust is infinitely more valuable than being cagey, as it allows you to work through inevitable challenges and build meaningful, long-term relationships instead of one-off transactions.
🗣️ Words to Build On
"If we can smash together world-class hardware companies with world-class technology companies... that's how we get the next gen of hardware. I think that's the most exciting thing for me." – Michael De Santis
"If you don't want a robot to kill you in your sleep, you just wait, wait for Gen 2 or 3 to come out." – Michael De Santis
"Integrity is everything and your word is your bond... you got to approach every business dealing that way." – Michael De Santis
👤 About Michael
Michael De Santis is the CEO of Doris Dev, a New York based product development firm and incubation studio that helps companies design products, engineer them, and set up the supply chains to manufacture them. As CEO, Mike is responsible for the firm's strategy, operations, and growth, overseeing teams in New York and Hong Kong and leading its relationships with founders and brands. Beyond client work, Doris Dev runs its own incubations, including Canopy, a consumer wellness brand spun out of the studio, and Rally, maker of the first orbital massage tool, where Mike supports everything from supply chain to fundraising.
🎧 Missed the beginning? Go back and listen to Part 1
SPEAKER_03
No, and on the uh topic of hardware, I think that's something I'm very, very excited about too, because I feel like that has been the thing that's been lagging. And then now we're at where we're at, and then like one, for example, um, you know, a company that you know undisputably makes great products is Apple. Um I cannot wait for Apple to come out with their version of like the meta Ray-Ban glasses, because I'm like, I see s I see you know, I I see those I saw those glasses come out, uh, and then I'm like looking at what they can do. I'm like, so you can like take pictures and you can listen to probably like pretty crappy quality music and um you know a few other things, but I'm like then I'm looking at like well it'd be cool. Can it do this? No, I can't do that. Can it do this? No, it can't do that. And I'm like, but someone's gonna like I know I'm not I'm not the first person to to ask myself, like, does this exist? And then I'm every time I think about something with hardware and I'm like, oh my gosh, I know someone's making this right now, uh, and it's only a matter of time. Uh and so I think that that's where the hardware is gonna uh really be like a second wave of uh craziness. Um is there what's uh what's one piece of hardware that like you're you know you're looking forward to coming out, whether it's something that someone's announced they're releasing or yeah, no, no, that's that's a fair that's a fair question.
SPEAKER_01
I would say the stuff that I'm most excited about personally is whatever Johnny Ives and OpenAI decide to do. I think um uh for those who don't know, Johnny Ives is one of the most iconic product designers uh that's ever lived. Um uh responsible for a ton of iconic Apple products, and he is now uh at OpenAI full time. So I think that collaboration. Uh I think that happened like six months ago-ish. Oh really? Um yeah. So, you know, it'll it m hardware takes a while, so we'll see where where these things net out. Um I think like um, you know, the initial stabs at like uh AI pins that are like intended to, you know, be a personal assistant that just like you're wearing on your chest, um, you know, fell flat. But uh I think the meta rayband thing is a is an interesting thing to point at. I don't know that meta-rayband glasses exist if if the snap glasses didn't come out 10 years ago, right? Like somebody paved the way with something that was like a little bit more of a rudimentary version of like what now the meta ray band glasses can do. And I feel similarly about some of these initial AI pins, right? Like they didn't hit the mark, but like somebody is going to figure out how to hit the mark. Um that's my assumption, at least, right? Uh you know, I uh I obviously the Apple Vision Pros did not land the way that Apple wanted them to, right? They were selling the selling this dream of like spatial compute and just uh you know putting putting some goggles on and doing all your work inside of those. Um and like maybe somebody will figure that out at some point in time in in the future as well. And I mean I'd be surprised if it's if it's not Apple at the end of the day, but um uh I think uh that those are the areas that I'll be most interested to see, particularly around like, you know, I'm sure all of us have this this happen, and like I even as much as I've integrated AI into my life, there are things that fall off my plate all the time. And if I could just like speak out loud when I had the thought, like, shit, I need to book that flight down to Thanksgiving for uh to go see my dad, uh go see my dad in November, which I literally do need to do right now. Um I would just have a menu of options to say, hey, here are the flights available, which one do you want? Right. And like that would just be a notification in my inbox or a text to my phone that's like here, it's all taken care of because you said it out loud. And I think that is gonna be some of the magic stuff that starts to happen, whether that just ends up being integrated into our computers and phones, or whether that's like a separate piece of hardware, it remains to be seen. But um, yeah, I don't know. I trans, I transcribe like almost every conversation I have at this point. Uh, there's so much data that you can mine out of that and uh you know improve your out your own personal outputs. And uh, you know, I've been working on cloning myself to the best of my ability, at least in the context of my inbox and my Slack messages, to try and just increase my own personal throughput. So that's where I'm most excited personally, is like how how can we start to like optimize um some of like the day-to-day drudgery that we all have to deal with. I'm you know, I'm a little less bullish on robotics as it currently stands, right? I think there's like some conflation between AI and robotics, and like um, you know, we'll we'll see if Tesla's able to pull off humanoid robots at scale uh that are you know doing the dishes and folding our laundry and all of those good things. Um I would love to I would love to see it come to life. I just think that's gonna be uh something that's gonna take a lot longer than some of these simpler applications that you know can just live in a device that's you know fit on the back of your phone.
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, with the you know the Tesla uh robots one, um you know, like I'm like very interested to see like what that would look like, but then like you have my wife is like and I'm sure is a lot of other people feel the same way, is like I don't want a robot in my house, like and because most people have seen Terminator, like I had the same conversation with my wife. It'd be interesting to see a study, um uh test you know, a test group of people with humanoid robots in their house doing those things and a test group without and see the variance or the differences in the quality of their sleep.
SPEAKER_00
If some of them sleep lighter, you know people are laying up at night worried about their their their robot going rogue.
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, like because I feel like that's a very real thing that people would like not would not sleep as at least initially, not sleep as deep, knowing that there's a robot and they've watched Terminator and that robot, you know, just the imagination running wild. Uh but no, I'm I'm fully I'm fully on board uh and agree with you with like your like the type of hardware that you're and it's more like w not naming the the hardware whether it's a pen or glasses or a uh uh this or that, like, but just more a thing that does this that and this is what it does. Like this I think we have the we know what we want it to do, and then it's like now it's I'm sure uh and because because of like you said, hardware taking a lot longer. Uh I'm sure that it's like it can't be too far away that we start seeing like just a bunch of new cool hardware that's been like in the works for quite a while, uh, you know, as all of the AI uh you know evolution and uh has progressed, you know, especially this year. Obviously the hardware side has been a lot slower, but I feel like it's just lagging behind, and then that's gonna come and it's gonna be wild. Um and because like you know, when I think about Apple, I think that they missed, like they kind of missed uh whether they missed it or uh intentionally or they just missed it uh by accident, like getting in on like the um, you know, with the likes of Anthropic or Open AI with the like with AI. And so that's where I'm like, I think that you know, I hope, just because we I know that they make great products, that they're gonna go in and try and focus on hardware now. Uh because that's uh you know, like I think next month, um uh and I will be joining the uh the pre-order for this. Uh they're coming out, Apple's coming out with their own uh, you know, the their foldable phone. Uh and so I'm like, that's gonna be cool because I just made the switch uh into last year to uh from finally from a Windows to a Mac, and it was when my Windows on a Friday night just completely it just like it just it gave up. It just gave up and didn't turn back on. And I'm like, I'm going to Best Buy tomorrow and I'm getting a Mac finally after uh and I'm like how have I done this without one for this long?
SPEAKER_01
Uh for so long, for sure. Well and yeah, and and you know, I think I think what you're like driving at to me is like uh and like there's like a corollary back back to Tesla with this too, right? Well, one of the things you hear Elon talk about is like basically since the early 1900s, nobody has been able to build out scaled production for vehicles. Like that hasn't happened again. Like it happened, there was a period of time in which it happened, and all these car companies cropped into existence and like built out this uh ability to have meaningful throughput on the production of vehicles. And Tesla was the first time that that happened again for a very, very long time. And to that end, right, and to the to the conversation around hardware still being very hard, um I, you know, I think the few the future version of this like is hey, this was tactical by Apple. The reason this is tactical by Apple is because Apple makes some of the best products in the world, right? They have uh an immense amount of bargaining power with factories that are the highest quality factories that exist on on the planet, and their ability to produce amazing, amazing physical product is not going away. Uh uh an open AI or an anthropic's ability to produce really high quality product literally just doesn't exist yet, right? Physical product. Um they ship a whole company's worth of product basically every other day. So uh, but you know, that being that being on the digital side, um Apple is Apple and you know some others too, right? Like Samsung are incredibly well positioned to be able to partner with these folks and then build out uh the actual physical uh devices that whatever the next gen of AI hardware technology is gonna live in is gonna live inside of. And I think that is that to me is like uh kind of extra exciting because it's like I would rather Apple partner with the best the best folks building these LLMs and building out these AI uh building out these AI models than Apple doing a you know, I'm sure they would I'm sure they would crush it, but like the likelihood that they're best in class is lower. I'd like cool, if we can smash together world-class hardware companies with world-class uh technology companies, and and uh you know, that's how we get the next gen of uh of hardware, I think that's the most exciting thing for me.
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, and then and then you have you have Elon who's like quietly and then now not so quietly, like done his own version of like his own Belt and Road initiative with all of his companies, where now you're like, you know, um, so I uh I own a Tesla. Um I you know my wife will hate that I say this publicly because she's not a huge fan of what it looks like, but I I have a Cybertruck and it's the coolest thing, it's like a growing man's best and coolest toy. It is the fastest thing on the road. Uh and I've since I've had it, I've driven just over a thousand miles. It's driven 10,000 miles for me 90% of the time. It drove me from Kansas City to Little Rock, Arkansas, uh saved a dog's life in torrential rain by not hitting it when I just would have been not focused, uh, probably like highly likely not as focused uh and paying as attention to identify there's no car in the oncoming traffic lane to swerve into that other lane to miss this dog running across the street. Uh and then even a month ago, uh like a like a six or a seven-year-old girl ran out in front of four uh lanes of traffic to pick up I don't know, like a toy or something that she dropped and like it like safely put the emergency brakes on and stopped and like I was paying attention, I saw that coming, so I was ready, but like this is like my point being it's like it's also like very, very good. Like I know the first models of uh the FSD were had issues, but I mean, like I shouldn't say this out loud, but I've like I have dozed off a couple of times driving because like I trusted phone.
SPEAKER_00
You're like, I don't have to anymore. Yeah, like I'm gonna go.
SPEAKER_01
I mean like you know, I've like getting in Waymo's, like getting in a Waymo for the first time is a crazy experience, right? Like you're sitting in a back seat and you have a wheel spinning in front of you with nobody sitting in the driver's seat, and like after two minutes, you're like, oh, this is actually super comfortable and cozy and feels super safe, right? And you know, maybe maybe what you just said actually is the key piece of the uh humanoid robot question, which is don't buy gen one, you know. The early FSD may be a little bit more challenging, but uh now FST is amazing. Same thing, like you know, if you don't want a robot to kill you in your sleep, you just uh wait wait for gen two or three to come out, and then all of a sudden all of the mundane chores that you didn't want to do anymore you can take care of.
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, you might be right, because uh it's yeah, the first the first robot, maybe it won't kill you, but it might break all of your dishes, and including try and wash and then break all of your grandma's fine china sitting in the cabinet, like it might uh it might accidentally step on the dog and kill the family chihuahua. You know, so maybe wait until that's happened maybe a few times and they've fixed the bug for that, and then it doesn't step on dogs or or little children. Um but um no, but well saying about like it's so like it's I've got that, and then you know, I've had now for just over a week been playing with Grockbot, and I'm like, oh wow, they're here now, they are like they're right up here with like the big dogs as far as you know the anthropic and open AI of the world. And this is actually like my like I've been you know blown away by you know different you know innovations when it's come to uh new AI technology, but I've never been mind-blown by how good something is right out of the wrapper. Uh you know, I think this is grokbot is like everything that open claw was supposed to be, uh, but easy to set up. Like I'm like, if my if my sweet old Nana was still alive, I think she could even set up a Grokbot for something.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03
Yeah. And she didn't even know how to really call us.
SPEAKER_01
Um a lot easier than just like having to go buy a Mac Mini and configure everything, etc. etc. Alright, it's just getting easier and easier by the day.
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, and then now you see uh you see Elon like hinting and teasing it, like when and this is the first thing I thought when I after day one, I'm like, the crockbot is amazing. I'm like, so how long until I can talk to it through my Tesla and it has an interface on the vehicle screen, and I can work as the car drives me. You know?
SPEAKER_00
I mean not long. Not long answered the question. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03
It can't be long because I just saw like the new Tesla Roadsters and I heard him say this on Rogan last year, but uh and they is supposed to like be able to have thrusters that like makes it like by definition fly. Uh I don't think it's taking trans and I don't think it's gonna be able to do transatlantic flights or anything, but I mean, still, and yeah, I I mean I think the first version probably gonna be pretty useless in like a practical sense, but still that's pretty cool. I wanna see it. You know?
SPEAKER_01
Like folks have to try and fail for for people to actually find find the way, right? And uh would ra would rather take the approach of trying and failing and trying and failing again than not have not have tried at all at the end of the day, right? I think like um a lot of a lot of fantastic entrepreneurs have a ton of failures in their in their background, right? Um it's easy to see like all the things that went well, right? Um uh and you know, e Elon himself is not uh he's not uh he's not like shielded from that, right? Like there are there are a million things that he would probably personally point to as like this failed, this failed for this reason. Uh even just keeping SpaceX alive, my understanding is that they got very close to being completely out of money because they really were not hitting the mark. And um, but like at the end of the day, all of those failures built something that is now uh ushering in the next generation of connectivity across the entire world uh in in the form of Starlink. Um and you know, I'm sure is going to lead to many, many more innovations that I am personally not creative enough to even dream up right now on the spot.
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, no, exactly. And and um and I know uh I I think that's the first time I've mentioned Elon on the podcast because like I now somehow now, you know, I don't get I'm from New Zealand, so I come from a uh a um minim minim minimally politically charged or you know low political testosterone. We it just you know like we're living our lives out in New Zealand.
SPEAKER_01
That's uh that's what we're focused on.
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, uh there's uh this is how unserious politics is in New Zealand. So in primary school, so I would have been seven-ish years old. We uh we have this uh because we have a prime minister, so then we have these members, members of parliament for each suburb. Uh and there is you know, there's the National Party and the Labour Party, the two main ones, and then there's you know some you know the smaller parties that end up forming coalitions with them uh and whatever, and uh the Act Party. Uh there's uh their uh member of Parliament for my where I lived coming and to talk to us kids at primary school, which I think that's a bit of a waste of time um because it's it's not like they were seeding the next generation with like uh yeah, you know, like uh their political thoughts, and you know, it was like brainwashing kids. Like the way I recall this, uh he yeah, he's asking a a room full of six, seven, and eight-year-olds, does anyone know any uh political parties? And you know, someone, you know, National Labor Act, the Maori Party, and uh you know, it was just our indigeno one of our Indigenous parties, and then I had watched, because it was during election year, I had watched at my uncle's house this show called uh uh Jon Owen Ben at 10, which is it's at 10 o'clock, uh I'd watch with my uncle on Friday nights when I would uh go and stay with him and my nana. And it was like it was a you know for it was a grown-ups, you know, funny show, and they'd do little bits and stuff. Um and they were talking about a party uh on that show, like um pretty recently, uh clearly that I remembered. And I put my hand up because this was a party that I I believe to be true, and it actually was a real party that uh because apparently anyone can create a political party and run. Um so I said to this guy in front of the whole school and all the teachers and a bunch of parents, I said, legalize marijuana, because that was the name of the party. And then I remember this guy, he's like, Is that a question? And I was like super embarrassed because I was like, I thought I just thought of one that no one thought of. Uh and that's actually a real party. So like Am I am I am I was I not allowed to say that one? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00
That's so funny. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00
I mean, listen, uh I I uh I actually I I love that story.
SPEAKER_01
That's such a funny story of like putting your foot in your mouth as a child and being like, wow, I really thought I nailed I f I really thought I nailed that one. Um just another just another failure in a long list of failures that you you know that uh that that leads to Bill's character, yeah.
SPEAKER_03
Those that was one of my earlier failures. But that you know, I it's I can get uh I think that story kind of sidetracked me to the point of I come over to the US, uh I'm now American citizen as well. Um, and I'm just uh I just never grew up around this like the political climate. So it's um like I like cool shit. Like and I don't care who he vote who he or she voted for. And so now like it's it's actually amazing. Uh you obviously like you know you got the you got the people who had Teslas and then now they don't get rid of the Teslas, but they put the stickers on and uh are anti him. I get I get flipped off frequently uh driving. I'm like, he didn't come with the car. And so I guess if there's anything I can anyone listening can take from me is let's just enjoy cool shit. Who and just who cares who made it?
SPEAKER_01
Like For sure. I mean, listen, at the end of the day, um uh there are plenty of people that uh have built many product companies that plenty of people are probably very politically misaligned with, and they continue to buy those products and are none the wiser. So, like, I don't know, build cool shit, uh buy cool shit.
SPEAKER_03
Um exactly. So, dude, this has been awesome. And so my uh final question I ask everyone um is what is your trade secret in business or in life?
SPEAKER_01
It's a good question. Um what is my trade secret? Uh I mean, I think uh for me, the the answer to the question is uh like integrity is everything in your word is your bond, right? Like do your best to be forthright, forthcoming, straightforward. Um I think that it goes an incredibly long way into getting you what you want. Um uh and you know, for me, uh and you know, working in product in particular, like uh integrity really is everything. Um so you know, that's my that's my trade secret. It's like your word is your bond and you gotta approach kind of gotta approach every business dealing that way. Um because uh listen, not everything doesn't always go right, but like that that doesn't mean that uh if there is trust there, your ability to work through that is um is just infinitely more valuable than you know being cagey and not being forthright and forthcoming. And I don't know. I'm I'm definitely a uh I I I like to lay out I I lay my cards out onto the table pretty quickly, namely with the goal of being like, hey, if we all understand what the incentives are here and are like clearer around what they are on both sides of the table, your ability to like one, make better deals that tick all the boxes for everybody is is better, and and two, uh to build meaningful relationships that last well into the future and you know aren't just uh you know one-off relationships. So I I think that's really the name of the game as far as I'm concerned.
SPEAKER_03
I love that, man. I love that, and I could not agree more. Um there's uh there's nothing better than um building relationships that are real, and you know, uh it's also I think uh a good uh a good a good um piece of advice to be able to uh no matter what happens, whether you're a founder or you're a father or a husband or a friend or a son or just a guy on the street, like to be able to lay your head down and at the end of the day be like I I did I did what I thought was right, I acted with integrity and uh and be able to say like to yourself, like on your deathbed, like, yeah, I was a good person. Like 100%. Like I feel like that's something that is uh you're gonna want to make sure that you can you can tell yourself uh you know at the end if you know when that's coming. Um more than you probably realize. Well, Mike, thank you so much, man. This has been great. Um if a company wants to work with Doris Dev uh or get in touch with you or see what you're up to, where's the best place for people to find you?
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, Dorisdev.com works. You can shoot me a note at Mike at Dorisdev.com. I'll get back to you as quick as I can. And um yeah, uh that would that would be the best place.
