Auntie Please
We were raised by aunties. Now, we're becoming them. Decoding South East Asian cutlture, midlife & "log kya kahenge."
Auntie Please
Log Kya Kahenge
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Episode one, log kya kahenge.
Speaker:Well, before we get into it, I was wondering, are we allowed to say what we're about to say? Absolutely not.
Speaker:That's quite on brand. Exactly the kind of energy I was hoping for.
Speaker:Yep. And can we acknowledge one thing? That there's some aunties somewhere out there that doesn't like this podcast already?
Speaker:1,000%. She hasn't even heard one single word and she already has concerns around the community.
Speaker:Deep, layered generational concerns.
Speaker:Absolutely known as log kya kahenge.
Speaker:And honestly, that reaction is the system we've been living in for decades.
Speaker:Generations. Yeah. The surveillance system, you know, the the algorithms, the even before the algorithms, the LinkedIn, before Instagram.
Speaker:Yeah, they were log. There were log. They were the log. Yes. And they were watching and they were judging and they were commenting and criticizing without intention and without accountability. And I think at this point, we should tell you who we are and why we here.
Speaker:Z. Who are you?
Speaker:Oh, great. You want to start with me? No problem to start. Hey guys I'm Zainab. I was born in Pakistan. Grew up in Africa. You know, I consider myself a global citizen. I've lived around the world quite a bit. I grew up in a very traditional Urdu speaking household, and over time, I became something that my community really was not ready for. I am an entrepreneur, a public health advocate, and I have learned to ask question that Pakistani women are generally not allowed to have loudly.
Speaker:And I am, Saema. I was born in Detroit, first generation Pakistani parents with heavily upbringing, with heavy Pakistani roots, but also the blend of modern tradition. And I am a mother of two, as well as a board certified physician in pulmonary, critical care and sleep medicine. We're raising our blended family here in New York City with a lot of traditional Pakistani values, but also a little bit different than what I grew up in.
Speaker:So basically what she's saying is that she has the science and I have the receipts. Yep. And this is exactly why we're doing this together . Yeah, I guess we're both and midlife at different points of it. So together we can paint the full picture. What is it like to be us? And honestly, the conversations we were having in private at dinner when we were out and about, those conversations weren't having publicly, they were all behind closed doors. And this is why it's important to do.
Speaker:This is why we wanted to do it, because we need those conversations out in the open. Right? And I've been listening to all these podcasts about women's health and wellness and you name it, but none of them are at the intersection of what we are here for. You know, to talk about what it really costs to be us.
Speaker:Yes. And what that does to us, it's actually burnout.
Speaker:And it's a burnout. No one talks about the sleepless nights, all the stuff we do for other people and what we're not doing for ourselves. And honestly, a lot of times I feel like I'm performing at a different level, but I still feel like I'm 25 inside, and how that inner plays with myself and my relationships is huge.
Speaker:Right. So I mean, and we're doing it while navigating how our mothers raised us and what the communities are expecting us to do and what our daughters, I know you have one, I don't, are going to learn from us. The reality is we're doing it because we needed this. We need it, we needed it, and if we need it,
Speaker:Then you need it. Many people need it. Absolutely.
Speaker:So let's get right into it then, shall we?
Speaker:Yes, I will, but, you know, one thing I want to do is I'm going to get a little uncomfortable. I mean, I'm going to make this a little uncomfortable because I think there was something there that we've never named, and we're just about to do that.
Speaker:Okay. Imagine when you walk into a shadi a wedding and just walking into a shadi that just opening.
Speaker:I already have anxiety inside of me because the entrance of the shadi not even being the bride brings up so much anxiety. The entire room is watching you. And you know it's true.
Speaker:And then somebody leans into you and says like, say, you know, because I just want to be loud. I want to have fun, and I want to, you know, do what I want to do. And like somebody else has something, you know, looking over your shoulder and saying something to you on your ears. Right. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Or imagine if you walk into a room, similar situation.
Speaker:You're about to go into work and you automatically just freeze because you're overthinking every detail about yourself your hair, your clothes, your voice, your tone of voice.
Speaker:Yeah, this happens to me so often. I hate to say it. I'm a little embarrassed to say it. I should know better. I last week I was about to give a talk on sleep. I'm an expert. I know this stuff. I know the dialog, I know the science. And the second I took the podium, I automatically froze because I was wondering if my suit color was too loud. My makeup was too much, my tone of voice is too aggressive where the people or women in the audience. But why did you feel that?
Speaker:Like, where did that come so and come from?
Speaker:I think it's so ingrained in me. And although I know better and I know how bad that is and why, it's just classical conditioning and I don't have to be a part of that. It's so much a part of who I am, and it's embarrassing for me to admit that because it's not naturally what I want to be or who I am. But I froze and the talk went fine. But the constant rumination, ruminating over those points that were coming up right before I had to give a presentation, was so unnecessary to me and so annoying.
Speaker:So you basically put all those restrictions on yourself, even when nobody else was watching you.
Speaker:Nobody else was asking me to do that, I did. You're right. You're absolutely correct. Now, how much of that is because it's the my cultural norm in classical conditioning is huge. It becomes so much of who you are. Or is it because my nervous system is just so aroused from being in those situations throughout my life? And that's a normal response for a hyper aroused nervous system, is that you have everything becomes this anxious buildup, and then you overthink and you overact and you over self criticize.
Speaker:Okay, doc, you know, you need to translate all of this because the normal Pakistani woman will not get it. And I am the definition of normal.
Speaker:I think the way I look at it is when you are taught to question so much or not be your natural self. Or maybe, you know, we're always taught to be loud on paper and then quiet and presence. Those are two different personalities, two different ways of living, and they're unnatural. One of them is usually unnatural to who you are. And what happens is that over time, your nervous system, when it's not at its natural state, starts overthinking and becomes hyper aroused or overly anxious when anything comes your way that reminds you of certain circumstances like that in the past. Put in a situation. Although it's normal to me, my nervous system now doesn't know which person I'm supposed to be. Is it the one it naturally wants to be, or is the one that I've been trained to be?
Speaker:Well, that's interesting you should say that, because it just brought back memories of me growing up around my grandmothers when we used to visit Karachi, and I remember being told, sit properly. Be careful. log kya kahenge. And I remember that was probably the first time I heard that whole concept. Not concept, but just that whole phrase log kya kahenge without really understanding what it meant, what the concept actually meant. And I must have been, what, ten, 12 years old at that point. But then what I learned over my life is that messaging was something that was kind of coming from the same, you know, in the same package from different angles, whether it was a school or at the masjid or the community, at a shadi. Yeah. So it just kind of traveled with you. So what you're saying is we are almost leading, you know, we're almost leading a double life. Like we want to be this, but this is what we engage wtih.
Speaker:That sounds exhausting.
Speaker:And it's unconscionable. because it's not a natural way of being who we are, who we want to be. And then our body in our world becomes such a threat in so many aspects. We don't really know how to calm down or to be natural, be who we are, and everything is just overthought.
Speaker:And it's scary. It's terrifying. We're never I feel like we're never actually feeling comfortable and secure in many ways. So then it's fair to say that it just started really early in our lives, really early.
Speaker:From the beginning, I feel. Wow. The oldest phrase to me is log kya kahenge. And that's the sentence I learned. And you know, the funny thing about it is that whole concept of log kya kaheng e as it was back then when we came from Pakistan.
Speaker:Oh yeah, I think so. Something just had not changed. I mean, I even catch myself sometimes when my daughter is four. And you told her that. Well, I didn't tell her that. No, I'm not I'm not going to do that. But I remember thinking about her reacting to something and in my head being like, I hope she doesn't do this in adult, in public. Well, that's not going to help people. It's not right. Which I didn't say it out loud. I'm not going to. But it was a reminder to myself of how how limiting I was. I am in my thought process because of what I've been conditioned to do, but it was also a checkpoint. You will not say this. You will not think this and who cares? I mean, she's loud and proud. Society is going to take that away from her. Unfortunately, in general, I don't want to be the reason that she now is nervous, anxious, and doesn't feel secure in who she is. My job is to build her security.
Speaker:Interesting. You should say that because you're thinking about it for your daughter, but you have those own boundaries set for you that you can't seem to overcome. Why?
Speaker:This wasn't supposed to be about me Z, but here we are.
Speaker:Yeah. You know, it is going to be about you because I am going to poke you.
Speaker:Well, I think it's because I question a lot of stuff, naturally. And that natural questioning about things I, I probably am confident in is from my upbringing and my cultural norms that I've been exposed to. And also, I think when I was a teenager, I would do exactly what I wanted to do, and then I'd have these like, you should do this, you should be that or shouldn't be that. And you naturally also think that these elderly people or your community or your support system is also trying to tell you how to do things to make you better, and where the kind of the perfect blend of that is, is, I don't know if I ever really learned. So I almost take it as constructive criticism. Sometimes it may not be constructive, it probably isn't if it changes who I am, but I think when I'm trying to process it knowing that, why are you questioning this? Just do what you want to do. Why are you thinking too much into it? I might also be looking at it like, well, maybe they were correct. Maybe they're right. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know, there's a lot of layers to it, but yes, I do fall into it. I should know better.
Speaker:I teach my patients this, don't care about this. Just say no. Put boundaries. And then when it comes to me, I don't have those black and white rules. And I think it's because of my upbringing. So you are treating your daughter like, you know, bringing her up separately than how you were brought up and in the conditions that you were.
Speaker:Yes. And I was unique. My mom wasn't so rigid. I'm going to be honest. She was very much, you know, she was very supportive, but she had her cultural norms because they were normal to her and then they become normal to other people for generations.
Speaker:But yes, she will be raised differently in some ways where I don't want constraints for her. I want to guide her to be the best, her and the best thing. You have to be the good example of that you self.
Speaker:You know that, right? You can't have that conflicting personality in front of her and she grows up and find out. I mean, that's the reality, right? Like, you know, this is just unfortunately the culture that we are. But funny you should say that, because I just remembered every time I talked to my mom and, oh, let me go back. So I majored in philosophy, right. Interesting. Yeah, I love to reason. And my favorite subject in philosophy was logic, because I used to reason with all the assumptions. You're not to question all the assumption underlying all the systems, right. So growing up, I wasn't allowed to do that because you have to be surprised and you have to be quiet. You have to kind of fall of known. So I did that, and I think I did it to a point where I'm like, no more anymore. So now when I speak to my mom and I'm reasoning with her, she keeps saying to me, I can't argue with you anymore. Where are you asked? Why are you asking these questions? Where are these questions coming from? Yeah. You know, just because I'm asking, I'm questioning everything. I'm trying to break the patterns. I'm trying to really understand. But do you apply that to your life every day? So you may know you.
Speaker:So do you apply that?
Speaker:Yes. Now I am. So I find I have become more consistent professionally, personally, socially. And I'm not everybody's cup of tea. I tell you this very honestly, and this is why exactly why we're here talking about low key. Because I'm done with that in my cup of tea. I'm your cup of tea. Any. Did I get it? You know, not supposed to be right. Like, I mean, we have different points of views, but we get it, like, because you know where I'm coming from. But I really like to question everything, you know, now. Which brings me to my next thing that I want to say out loud, because it's not just about like what we would thought to when we, you know, talk about when we were growing up, we have an underlying, I would say parallel that we're dealing with. And that's called the gender bias.
Speaker:Oh yeah.
Speaker:Because in our culture men can embarrass themselves.
Speaker:But apparently women embarrass everyone, their entire lineage, their community, their values, everything. For man, it's him. For a woman, it's the entire universe.
Speaker:See, this is why I need her. Because she can explain everything the way I can't even, you know, comprehend.
Speaker:Well, I want to go back to your philosophy. I'm just going to be okay, because I find that very interesting that you did. You seek out that by trying to find something so different than what you were exposed to, or for trying to find a balance. So, you know, because there's so different in the Pakistani culture, like, oh, a philosophy or psychology or any of that is just like, why?
Speaker:Interesting. You should say that because I tell you that I come from a, you know, family of bankers. So even Pakistani culture, if you're not a lawyer, a doctor or an engineer, you're basically don't exist, right? So I had to explain and defend the concept to my father, who wasn't, you know, very thrilled at my choice of it, but I thought I was very good at it. You know, I did really, really well, and I and I think it's helping me see my life differently now.
Speaker:I like that.
Speaker:Yeah. It is.
Speaker:Do you think that because you took philosophy or?
Speaker:I guess I'm judging a philosophy person very different than what we think we're culturally.
Speaker:So what do you see yourself as now? Do you see yourself as a blend of both?
Speaker:This is something that I struggle with also because I think I am an old school and a new school.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And there was never a blend in old school.
Speaker:Is that nervous system conditioned?
Speaker:I'm telling you, that's what a conditioned nervous system is. Because you want to go into this philosophy, lane, but then you still have so much of what you're attached to. But, you know, it's not just you, it's your body, your nerves, your cells feel that. Right? And they react to it.
Speaker:And I adore my mom and she's she's wonderful sorry, mom. But like, you know, when I try to be in my new school and I go back and question her , she'll bring me right down back to my old school self and she goes, nope, this is who you are. This is what we're going to talk about. This is how you're going to do it. I'm like, okay, mom. It's like our moms are us too. In many ways they have been conditioned. So we label them as mom did this, mom did that, grandmother did this. But the reality is it all started from birth, right?
Speaker:And they go through generations. So they know they don't actually know any different than we do exactly where ours are. And what helped me understand my mom better is exactly what you just said. Now I reason with it and go, no, my mom didn't know any better because this is how she was raised. So I have to respect that. And she can't see my world. I can't see her world. But we've just got to find a way to coexist.
Speaker:Yeah. You know, my mom's a psychiatrist, so she was different than a lot of Pakistani women because she pursued a field that everyone thought was just an abomination in general. In many ways. You know, nowadays it's different. But in general, she sees life differently now. She was probably fighting between her traditional upbringing in values and then knowing the science behind it. And she may have gotten a lot of answers from it. So she kind of raised my brothers and I to think outside the box. Don't, you know, talk about so many things out loud, because that was her trying to find the balance of what I want my kids to be. Yeah, I want them to be more in who they are than I was, but also within some constraints. Culturally, I think that was the way she found balance. And we had a great upbringing, but now what I would want to do for my daughter is a little bit different. But taking from those values, how I'm going to do that, you'll probably have to keep asking me.
Speaker:I'll keep an eye out for that.
Speaker:Yeah. You know, so let's close this one out. We talked about a few things today and we shared our perspective. So what do you think we learned?
Speaker:I guess it's what we want to learn. So what I want to be better at or what I want to learn more about myself is why I can't always take advice I give my patients and how I'm going to start.
Speaker:Oh my God, doc, I'm going to hold you accountable. That's so much. You will be so sorry you brought this up too.
Speaker:I mean, I love you, I don't want to hate you, you know, but I do want to. So naturally, I am so good at telling my patients to just say no and have boundaries. I want to take that for myself and be able to do that.
Speaker:And how are you going to do it?
Speaker:Well, I did last week once and I was so proud. I said no, I said there was too much happening in the day. It was the kids drop off. It was my husband wanted to meet for lunch. It was the work. It was the blah blah blah and I just didn't want to make dinner. I just didn't want to do it. I'm fine with making dinner. I love to cook. I just did not want to do it. So I said no. Everyone was fed and it was great. And I said no, but no one died. No one died and even so we could bring them back. I'm just kidding. Don't put that out there. But in general, people, everyone was fed. I just didn't want one extra task on my list that day because my brain and my body and my emotions couldn't handle it. And I said no. Everyone was fed. So I kind of took the control n my hands and said no and everyone was totally fine.
Speaker:I'm proud of you.
Speaker:Thank you. How about you?
Speaker:I think to me, what I'm learning by myself is I'm done with the exhaustion of being in walls. I am learning to take space and not feel sorry, not feel apologetic about it and now, like, what I'm going to do with it is that I'm going to sit on it and I'm going to notice. I'm going to notice how people react to when I take space.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:Yeah. So that's what it is.
Speaker:I will let you know how that goes.
Speaker:Yeah. So let's talk about an Auntie Please moment. Something fun. We've had a lot of heavy discussion. So let's make it a little fun. Let me ask you what do you mean by Auntie Please Auntie Please. Yes Auntie Please, I have enough of exhaustion already. Like you know. Let me live my life and let me not have to explain it to anybody. Okay.
Speaker:What about you?
Speaker:So there's not enough of me to go around. I'm going to have strict boundaries, I'm just going to say that, like I have too much. Too much to do, too much to deal with. I'm done. I'm not making time for people that I feel like don't need. I can't give myself to at this moment, or jobs or tasks, etc. so I'm not going to say yes anymore. We're culturally oh yes, I'll...
Speaker:Revolutionary, Well! There's only one of me. Okay. No, no, this is good. This is good. Take space, my friend.
Speaker:Yes. Follow after me. How about you?
Speaker:That's exactly what I'm going to do. Like you know, I'm going to learn to say no more, you know? I mean, I'm going to learn to say no. more. You know, I am always at, you know, people pleaser also in a way that I'm always like, nice to everybody. And I'm like, no, enough, enough is enough. I need to preserve my own energy and I need to be there for me. And again, it all comes down to me taking space and not being apologetic for it. The big thing about that is, is that as we implement this, we have to not care about what everyone is going to say about it or the perception of us saying no will be. Because I actually think no matter how much we do. They'll always be people who say, log kya kahenge, and I'm not going to let that bother me anymore. The original surveillance system.
Speaker:The original surveillance system.
Speaker:So with that said, see you guys next time.