Auntie Please
We were raised by aunties. Now, we're becoming them. Decoding South East Asian cutlture, midlife & "log kya kahenge."
Auntie Please
The Anxious People Pleaser That Lost Herself
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She was the good one. The helpful one. The one who never caused problems. Sound familiar?
Executive & Relationship Coach Naila Qureshi from MindBodySpiritss joins us on this episode to break down something we don't talk about enough — people pleasing isn't a personality trait, it's a defense mechanism. And for a lot of South Asian women, it started very early. In this episode, Naila helps us understand where it comes from, why we hold on to it, and what it's actually costing us.
Because somewhere between log kya kahenge and keeping everyone comfortable, a lot of us lost the plot on who we actually are. Naila is here to help us find our way back.
Episode Resources
Connect with Naila Qureshi
www.mindbodyspiritss.com
Welcome to Auntie Please, the anxious people pleaser who lost herself.
Speaker 1What does that sound like? It sounds like life. I don't know. Really? Any example? I mean, I have so many examples about anxious people or about people pleasing. People pleasing, let's go with that. I like that. You know, I think the question is, do you are you a people pleaser or not? Good question.
Speaker 2I think I'm not. Okay. I'm really not. I learned to find my voice over a lifetime, and it really did take me a lifetime to do that. And I think as an independent woman who's single, living in this big city called New York, this is really where, you know, you have to come to terms with it. And I feel like I am not a people pleaser anymore. I, on the other hand, find people, women especially, trying to people please me all the time.
Speaker 1Interesting. Yes.
Speaker 2Okay. You know? So I have been on the other side learning motives, learning agendas, you know, and really it makes me feel very sorry for them. Yeah. And I don't know why. There's one way I could correct it. I would love to.
Speaker 1Do you ever get offended by behaviors or acts that you find people are trying to please you about?
Speaker 2Absolutely. I have tons of examples for that. And I don't want to call anybody out, but a lot of my friends do that. They want to get invited to parties or they want favors from me or uh they want to go on trips with me. You know, it's just all I don't know, I hate to say this, but it's just very uncomfortable watching women do that to women.
Speaker 1I mean, of course. You know, it's we are we have different personalities, but if I were to see that happening to me, I almost would question the validity of that relationship, of what they want, what their role. And that's hurtful too, especially when you built a relationship with someone. Does it do you ever feel that way? That maybe is this a true relationship or not? Or do you are you accepting of the role that you play in their life or circumstances they may need? Or are you, do you look at it in this way that, oh, you know what? Maybe they need something and I can help them. Because I would call the la the end of that one a puper pleaser.
Speaker 2Well, that's true. And I do, I do go back and forth a lot. As you know, I love my philosophy. So I'm others questioning, you know, questioning the jump uh assumptions underneath that, right? So I think I'm get getting to be very good at catching, you know, who really needs help versus who's really looking for a favor, you know, and that is why they're trying to people please me. And I think that those that and my circle I found over the last few years have just become smaller and smaller and smaller because even I don't have the bandwidth right to, you know, to sustain that, to accommodate that.
Speaker 1Yeah. Right? It's hard. But you know, I think smaller circles are always deeper circles, to be honest. And I think that sometimes that's better. I don't, you know, I don't think I am a people pleaser. Oh, you're not? No, I don't. I think that I was. I again the reasons say why I say I don't think versus I am not or I am is I'm not sure because I was a people pleaser. I think a lot of my upbringing, I was a people pleaser, whether it was at work, you know, taking extra shifts, always being the yes person, or growing up culturally. You know, you're the one in the Baksani household, you greet everyone, you're the one who's supposed to be socializing. My mom was like the my mom is a social mingler. So I was the one, salaam koro, salam koro, you know, going up to everyone and saying greeting them and eating the bar like this and having them hosted our house, I was like the welcome for everything. Yeah. But there's some type of people you just don't like or you know something about them. And I would still throughout my upbringing, you know, greet and please and mingle. And as I got older and I never wanted to be a great person, I wanted to be black and white, I would not socialize, mingle, or entertain people that I didn't feel were worth it. And it wasn't that they weren't worth it to me. There were things I knew about them, good and bad. And I don't need to flex be flexible on good and bad if I, you know, so I think that I had to learn my value systems and what I consider right and wrong and what I wanted to establish more for my future generations for me to basically not please. So take for example, Eid was this week, right? Yeah. You know, Eid Mubarak, salam to everyone. No, I mean, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2Yeah, I'm sure you would have been tired. Um exactly.
Speaker 1So I do the quick exit. I do like the quick, like close circle and then I exit left real quick, make some excuse about my daughter and run. But you know, there was this row of aunties. Yeah, I know too much about them now, too much that has come to light that has been validated that I know is absolutely true. Yeah. I am not going to associate with them in any way, shape, or form. And you know what was my checkpoint? My holding my daughter's hand. You know, my in our culture, it's there's so much about being one way at home and another way outside. And it's hard to, yes, and it's hard to kind of navigate where you fit. And when you're growing up, you're trying to assume and build an identity. And when you're told to be two different people, how do you confidently build an identity? You know?
Speaker 2So interesting you should say that because there was something that I you just you know, I just remembered. People in in New York City call me polarizing. You polarizing. Correct. I mean I don't think you'll believe that. I don't think you'll agree with that, but this is what I'm known for that I am polarizing. I don't think you're polarizing. Right. I don't know. I take it as a compliment, you know? Yeah. Like I'll make whatever I want to make out of it. But then the other thing is the reason I became not a people pleaser, I found is that when I look at my sister, she is, you know, a caregiver for my mom. Normally stay at home, works out at home, and does everything that I couldn't possibly do. But she is always trying to maintain harmony. So I think not by choice, but by default, she became a people pleaser. With me, on the other hand, because of my professional life and being around a lot of Pakistanis and also not a lot of Pakistanis, I learned to find my own voice.
SpeakerYeah.
Speaker 2Not through the Pakistani community, is what I'm saying. From the Gora community. Yeah. Because I saw how the Western women, you know, treat are treated and they, you know, how what they do to gain the respect in the industry they are. And, you know, we're working in a very male-dominant world.
Speaker 1Right.
Speaker 2So you need to find a way to not be a people pleaser. And I kind of feel like I carry that within my social life as well. And I've become very intimidating for people.
Speaker 1Good for you. Is it? I mean, I think so. Intimidate you being intimidating is not a you problem, it's a them problem.
Speaker 2Oh god, my Pakistanis are bent on like making me feel like, oh, it's intimidating here. So uh look ya k henge.
Speaker 1You know, I was told I was intimidating my whole life, and I used to get annoyed by it. I was intimidated by you. I didn't think you and I would ever get along. Did you ever realize that? I think you were fine. You had this pink little like fruit foo dress on, and I liked it. Exactly. You know, my husband brought us together. It's a good, it's a great relationship. Yes. But you know, I don't understand when someone says they're in you're intimidating. Am I? I I don't understand that phrase because I was told that like I swear since I was like 10 years old. And I thought it was because I was too loud and too proud and too bold and too like very point blank point. And my mom would be like, Oh yeah, but me being intimidating, I don't see that as a me problem. That is a whole other whoever finds that else is problematic. How can I fix that though? Yeah. I don't also feel I should fix that. Yeah. You know, as long as I'm not causing any harm to someone or I'm not hurting someone's feeling, which is an intent, which I don't have, I don't know what I'm supposed to do about that statement. I've never understood that statement. I've never understood it as a young teenager, an old teenager, a 20-year-old, 30-year-old. Now I and the amount of times I've heard that, I don't know how to process it. I'm not sure what to do with that information because to me, that the assessment I have of that is, well, that's what their impression is of me. How can I change someone's impression? And is it my job? Not really. I have a lot of things to do. I don't think I'm gonna change my opinion of people, the opinion people make of me at ever. And I don't think I'm gonna prioritize that because if I prioritize that, how am I supposed to prioritize the things that really need to be?
Speaker 2It need conditioning here, okay. Like every time you take one step to be more positive and more, you know, successful in your life, they bring tens another child. Yeah, they bring another step back to you. Yeah, you know, and that's the thing, like, you know, this is where I try to do a lot of comparison of where I was, like, because I was a deaf child. Yeah, you know, had no friends. So I was probably very insecure, and I'm sure I was, but nobody knew what I was going through at that time. But over years, you know, growing up in boarding school, like living my life here in the US and being in the professional world that I am in, it really took a lot for me to stand on my own two feet and not be a people pleaser at all. So I'm, you know, I'm really proud of it. But I can give you a list of names I've been called, like the Lokya kahinge list. But you know, you and I can like argue and like, you know, discuss so many uh you know, examples of our lives and how we've been. But I think we probably need an expert to weigh in on it.
Speaker 1Yeah, you know, because you don't we just know ourselves, but do we really know ourselves?
Speaker 2I know. I think I'm really dying to know what this means for me and what this means for you. So how about we bring the expert in? I love it. Wait, hello. Hello, welcome.
Speaker 3Thank you. Hello, hi.
Speaker 2Yes, so you have any idea what you're about to get into?
Speaker 3Well, yeah, before you didn't say, you know, I know. Oh are you asking or are you telling me that I'm intimidated?
unknownNo.
Speaker 3So imagine, like I was just listening to two beautiful personalities, and I think you both it was a healthy discussion. That's what I I was just like so mesmerized by your uh perspective and your perspective. You both have individual perspective. You might not agree on it because you're coming from two different backgrounds, but it doesn't mean one is right or the other. It's just like a beautiful, it's like two different flowers I'm looking at. Oh but Naila, do you want to start by telling us about you? Sure. So I am Naila Koreshi, as you know. Um, I'm not gonna go into my past experience, what I did, because um I would the only thing I can tell you is that I'm coming from a clinical background, but these days I'm not showing up as a clinical person. I'm non-clinical. I am running a business called Mind Body Spirits with two S at the end. That's the distinguish between Mind Body Spirit and Mind Body Spirits, where I do executive and relationship coaching. Oh wow. Wow.
Speaker 2I think so. Right person in the room then. I think so. Yeah. So let's uh dive right into it then. So I have to ask you have you sat across from a Pakistani of South Asian women who has been saying yes her whole life and doesn't know who she is actually anymore. What does that look like when it walks into your office?
Speaker 3Well, let's talk about first. I don't even have to go that far. I the person is sitting right in front of you. Me. Oh. I felt judged for a second. Oh, that's being it means there's something going on in your head. You're talking to yourself, right? So um, well, you don't have to go that far. Like um, Nyla 1.0 or you can say Nyla 0.1 was like that. Like said yes to many things where I don't want to say yes. Um, if you look at wow, like people pleasing, yes. I have seen my own uh clients coming in with that notion in their head that somehow they have to show up in a way that they have to please me so I don't reject them. Oh, yeah. As a client. Yeah, that's just so I would say the first three sessions, they are just trying to test me. Because when I'm asking questions, they think that I they have to somehow please me in a way so I don't judge them. Yeah, it's not just normal is I would say um what is normal? It's I would say it's very common. There's a difference.
Speaker 2Why is it common that they are you know coming into a safe space to talk to you and then they How would they know I'm safe?
Speaker 3Hmm, they have to test me.
Speaker 1It's also how they do do you think it's also because they want to present themselves?
Speaker 3Like presentation is huge, so uh presentation or think of it like this. I'm totally stranger.
Speaker 1Yeah, right?
Speaker 3You're coming in. If you're coming for anything, I'm just talking about non-clinical uh perspective. Even when you're coming in, you want a change in your life because coaches, what they do, we are very future oriented, right? But future is incomplete without the past. So when they're coming in with their past luggage, they come in, they say, Okay, I want safety. How would they know they they are safe? They have to test me. And that's why I say, Okay, first two, three sessions you're gonna meet, you will be testing me. How would you change or how would you open up authentically when you don't feel safe? That's a new person.
Speaker 2But then I don't understand the part about them people pleasing you.
Speaker 3I think or do you think they're analyzing or they're analyzing themselves, yeah. They are they're who it like let me ask you have you ever met someone who would come openly and say, Oh, I have these many flaws and I want to change myself? Taking accountability takes a lot of bravery. That's true. Right. So you come in in the room by being your best self.
Speaker 2Wow, okay. And do you find that most with the South Asians or in general?
Speaker 3I would say um in general, but South Asian is a little bit more because guess what? You're opening the door and letting an stranger come in, you're betraying the family. Yeah, you're betraying the relationships how uh or your image. You're betraying your image. Yeah.
Speaker 1And so much I feel like it's it's just came to my mind that you're also betraying the culture, a culture that lives behind closed doors, and to betray a culture is so heavy. It's family, culture, it's everything, religion.
Speaker 3So there are so many layers. Uh, you know, I'm glad that you said that. Imagine we are like like an onion, right? Right. So you have um your religion, then your family. Before even family is which um country you're living in. Like a Pakistani person grew up in Dubai is gonna be different than a Pakistani person growing up in Pakistan, right? And a Pakistani person growing up in South Africa, and Pakistani person growing up in America. Even Chicago from Chicago to California is different. So you have so many layers, and then your mom's side of the family uh tradition, your dad's side of the family's tradition, and then your grandparents' side of um uh kind of like layering. So the and then if you're married, then you're in-laws, then your own, then a woman layer.
Speaker 1And and throughout these layers, you have to people please. Is there you know, there's a sensation, there's almost like an I don't want to speak for the whole, but I feel like it's a common concept to people please or to appear or to greet or to serve in some way or host in some way that appeals to other people, that is presentable to other people. It's almost like how you your identity is presented to the culture and to the circles and the families. But now you have all these layers. Some of them don't relate, but you have to relate them, you know, in order to encompass the whole person.
Speaker 3How you're showing up.
Speaker 1Yeah. Right.
Speaker 3So from for this uh episode purpose, I'm gonna bring people pleasing as a safety strategy.
unknownInteresting.
Speaker 3It's a safety strategy for you because growing up, we are learning how to step into the world. So you have a lot of responsibility from your parents. Oh, I how many times I have heard from even like growing up uh myself, I have heard my mom saying that oh, you're representing me in the world. So you're representing our upbringing. So you go out, you mess up something, guess what? So imagine you are taking entire responsibility on your shoulder. So you don't want to mess up.
Speaker 2Interesting you should say that because it's almost like it's thought to us as a compliment. There's some when somebody calls you a people pleaser, it's almost a compliment to us.
Speaker 3Yeah, because think about it, like growing up, how differently we are raising our sons and our daughters. Our daughters are representing entire family um lineage. Have how many times I I don't you're very young, so I I'm not expecting that from you. And Zenap, you're also very young. But you'll understand how many times in Pakistani or in even Indian movies, uh in olden movies, you say, look, oh, Babki Pagri, what does that mean? You have never heard that for a son.
Speaker 2Exactly. I was just gonna say carry the lineage.
Speaker 3Yeah. Exactly. That's true, right? So imagine everything what you do, you are either painting us in a good light or painting us in a bad light.
SpeakerYeah.
Speaker 3Even when I got married, my mom said, like when I went lean, oh, you know, uh and what does that mean? Hamara nam sa hirakna. What does that mean? Even if I'm not happy, I have to keep my mouth shut.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 3It's true. No matter what. Luckily, I did not have to because I'm very, you know, assertive.
Speaker 2So You know, when I uh got married, and about I was about to get married, my mom was talking about this book called Beij the Zabur. Oh my god. Yeah, I don't even think how big read it and so. So I was very curious about that book. And I did glance through it later, much later in my life, you know, after I lost my husband. It just, you know, I came into it uh a few years ago. And man, that was terrible. Yeah. Is this what we teach our daughters? I didn't need the gist of it.
Speaker 1Because I don't know.
Speaker 3Yeah, go ahead. So for Bahisti Zavor So it's basically a manual, how to present yourself as a good wife. Okay, I mean that's like it's a manual, like some manual code manual. I'm not kidding you. Yeah, so so I'm not gonna go into that because the thing is we are talking about emotional safety. Yeah, people pleasing is all about creating safety to be feeling safe.
Speaker 1So are you saying that that's just how we should use it, or is that how it was built? Because people pleasing has never made me feel safe. It all depends. It's not I I just I don't think it's relevant to my safety, but that's me. Yes. Can I see for a lot of people, same culture, same upbringing, same background, maybe it's used as a technique or a tool or an asset in that way. I think people pleasing puts you in a forced position that you may feel uncomfortable with if you don't want to please. Or the person is not someone you choose to please. That makes me feel unsafe, but forced. And it doesn't allow me to formulate safe and unsafe. It just makes me exposed, you know. I don't know. That's the way I'm gonna do it. You feel safe within yourself.
Speaker 3I feel safe within carry your own safety with you. Yes. Now I imagine I'm not saying that your mom created that for you, but for your mom's safety is when you create safety for her around the aunties.
Speaker 1Correct. I can see from my mom's perspective, you're absolutely correct. That why she maybe hinted at these, she may not have consciously associated with people pleasing, but these be, you know, these acts or these dialogues or these aspects she implemented in me, was it her probably trying to implement a safe environment for me and my upbringing and my line, whatever it may be? Yes, I can see that. Yes. Um, I think that she did that with the right intention, but what it limits, it limits someone though. If it's forcing them into an unsafe space, she probably did not see it as an unsafe space. She may not have also known. Did you have any dialogue with your mom? Yeah, we have dialogues too. And you know, as an adult, it's very different. And I was, you know, my mom's a psychiatrist, so my upbringing was a little bit more lax because she understood the behavior, the mentality, the she's also very good at recognizing safe and unsafe. But there was a lot of things she also wasn't aware of, not from me, but about the people, you know. So, yes, we have all of these dialogues. And actually, it was funny because I was going back to the Eve story on the way car ride home. My mom's like, What's going to get no? She goes, Good.
Speaker 3You know? Tell me that's good. Now you're on the same page. Yeah. So, but imagine, um, we don't want to start like, you know, a lot of like a session. Yeah. So I'm I'm gonna go back to what is emotional safety, not only for you, for like people watching, people who have no idea what is happening within them. So people pleasing is more like think of it like a fight or flight uh situation. So when when I say it is your psychological and emotional safety, they are testing should I be me in front of you? Will I be safe if I show up vulnerable? When they find this is not safe for me, then they bring the person that is expected to be outside. So we are growing up, we are never taught how what. You can be. It's always what you should be. So we don't even learn how to be us. We are always trying to be how I should be like this. What a mother should do that. What a daughter should do that. What a um sister should do that. And what a a wife should be like.
Speaker 2But Nana, what happens to that person, that person alone? Because she's performing for everybody else.
Speaker 3She gets burnt out. Have you ever heard people saying that I give a you know excuse my French, like, you know, I'm done?
SpeakerYeah.
Speaker 3Especially you hear that from people who have a lived experience. Because they're done wearing masks. They're done living for others. Because they never lived for themselves.
Speaker 1You think they also don't know who they are? And that causes so much. At all events, yes.
Speaker 3Sometimes they know, but they cannot accept themselves to be presented in a way that they can say, okay, I am who I am and take it or leave it. Because the when people are pleasing others, they have fear of being rejected. Because it means in the past they have been rejected for being them. That's true. Right? So they don't want to be rejected because we as a human we all want connection. And we are told that you are people. Like I'm a people even I say, like, oh, why are you in this profession? I love people. I love to connect with people.
Speaker 1That's true. The the sense the need to belong is so strong. And it kind of it just you just made me think of the story. I didn't realize this till now. I had a really bad incident that happened in college with a group of Backsani friends, and something I was accused of doing, and it didn't happen, but a group of girls just completely just dropped me. I mean, I sat down at a wedding table, they all got up. Like all of this, and it was decades later, but for a good 15 years after that, I avoided female friends. I didn't need them, I didn't want them outside of like a couple work colleagues because you literally live in the hospital during training. You're just forced to get to know each other better than anyone in your life. And I had two really good friends in residency and my best friend Jenny and a fellowship. But I avoided building female relationships, networking for what they bucks. Over boxed. And did you ever find out what happened? Um, you know, they accused me of doing something that never happened. I can see how it looked like uh they could have accused me of that. It never happened. But years later, they would kind of see my mom here or slide into my DMs and kind of apologize, or if I'd run into them hints at like, oh, this was wrong. But years later, and I think it didn't matter at that point and it wasn't so valuable, but I avoided, avoided, and you can even ask my husband, anything to do with trying to get to know more women. Because I mean, it's a little bit of a, I guess you can say it's probably a little bit of trauma, defense, a safety for me to just avoid. Um, and I was talking to one of my oldest friends about it last night. It took me a long time, up until I think it was only until after I had my first kid where I was like, I'm dying for someone, you know, where I said, Well, those some people, if you want anyone right now, you're so lonely with a baby, is you're gonna have to include women too. Yeah. So now you're taking risk of putting yourself out there. But I'm a different person now because a lot of that shaped me too. So it took me a while, you know, initially when I had my kids and I was starting to venture out, I was still very guarded. I think Z, you may be one of the first friends I wasn't guarded with, to be honest.
Speaker 3I'm honored that means imagine going to that uh particular incident. When you see women, you see threat.
Speaker 1I see threat. And I, you know what I see? I also see, do I really want to open this Pandora's box that we become good friends and then something else happens? Like, is it worth it? No, because that takes so much. It's her fault. So, what was different with uh her?
Speaker 3Because you found some safety.
Speaker 1So I think in Xana, what I picked up very with the first thing is that I didn't feel like I had there was no competition. There was just natural. And all of our conversations, to be honest, were deep conversations from day one, from when we met at SACS for lunch. Right. They weren't like, what are we talking? What are we waiting for? They were real conversations. This is what you do, this is what I do. So what's your background? Okay, and then what are your thoughts about this? I'm doing this. And I think that avoiding all of the, it's fun to banter about like the clothes and the society and the food, and but every conversation was a real adult relationship. Ones I wanted now. People I want in my circle, I need to talk about things in life about, not just the fluff. The fluff is fun, but how do we grow? How do we build each other? How is she my go-to person? Is because we've had those conversations straight off the bat. And I'm at a place in my life that I only have those conversations from for the most part. And because I learn from those. I grow, I think from those. And I think that I'm at a place where I want to learn from my surroundings and I want to maximize what I take from this world. And the people I surround myself with are the ones I'm going to gain a lot of that knowledge from.
Speaker 2And I'm going to add to that because when I go home, I see the opposite of me. What do you mean? Meaning my sister is the opposite of me. You know, very harmonious, very much she would be the poster child of people pleaser. Right? And I always try to keep, you know, talking some sense into her. And we always get into this never-ending argument. You know, because she's like, you don't know what it's like. Tum garpini rati. You know, tum family kisatni ratin, tum family kochur ka chilige. You know, you've moved out. Wow. You know, and so there's always that tug, you know, a tug of war. So I know I'm not wrong in my uh point of view because I learned to have a voice. And it's not just learn to have a voice, it's how you put your point of view forward when you're, you know, talking to your family, talking to your friends and like, you know, your colleagues and all, right? So you make the sense. So you're not defensive and you're not like, you know, arguing with them and you're not pushing them back and you're being very respectful. But I see that a lot. Like, and my sister is a very educated woman, she's doing really, really well, my shall I say. But I see two sides. The same family made two sides of you know, of the same woman. Right? So listening to her say that, like we got along really well. So I'm really honored because I felt the same way about you. Because you cannot have real conversations with women who are not confident and who really are insecure and don't see the other side of the spectrum, right? But when I go home, I see my own sister being that.
Speaker 3So when we say, like, okay, my sister is peeper pleasing, she's a harmonious one, what does it come in your mind? It doesn't it tell you that she's trying to bring peace? Yeah. And when do you bring peace? Let me ask you. Do you bring peace in peace and you bring peace in chaos?
Speaker 2See, I bring peace in uh what do you call um in dialogue in like making sense about things. Right? I don't I don't I don't mind being disruptive. Exactly. Right? It's not chaos, it's just you know, I want to uh bring order, but at the same time, I want to make sure that everybody has their place, right? And nobody's being taken advantage of because she's caregiving and she's round the clock 24-7, right? And it's very hard to watch. I want her to have her space.
Speaker 3You want her to be safe. You are trying to protect her. Correct. And she's saying, You don't understand what protection feels like. You come from outside, you're telling me what to do. You live in my position, and then I'll ask you. Right. Right. So when she's saying that, that's majority of your viewers, I'm sure they feel the same way that someone comes up and says, Okay, you should be doing that. Yeah. Again, the word comes should. Yeah. Because we don't know what is happening within them. What is their safety? So where that's why it's very important for us to know where where my safety ends and where the other person's safety starts. Right. Because your safety might be in the depth, and her safety might be on the surface. Right. Interesting. Stay in the on the surface. Don't go deep. You don't understand this is how the system works. Yeah.
Speaker 1I think it's also when you love someone and you're so close to someone, if it's hard to, you have to acknowledge that they're a different person and their means of navigating life are different. And I find myself falling into this trap all the time. Like I have two brothers, we're all very close in age, we're all doing great, but we're very, very different. And sometimes you want to overstep and say, Oh, you should do that. You should do that. But they've done so well. You know, I cannot navigate their waters for them. We can have discussions about it so we learn each other's insight. But it's so hard at that moment to not want to kind of push them forward to it. Exactly. Yeah. But what's worked for you may not have worked for them. And it probably, if they had done what I done, it probably wouldn't have worked for them.
Speaker 3They're just you see, it all comes back to what? Emotional safety. You're asking your sister, hold my hand, leave your safe zone, be with me. Yeah. And she's saying, You don't understand what it feels like to be in my situation. You can't, because then she's you're saying, okay, come to me, come with me. You can do, and I'm sure it's coming from love. It's coming from fear as well, that you don't want to see your sister getting hurt. Right. But for her, that is her safety. Because she knows how to navigate around that situation, the way she is the pro in her own strategy. You are pro in your own strategy. So you are basically complementing each other rather than competing or comparing each other. So when we have our own emotional, I would say, boundaries where I know where I end and where the other person starts. Yeah. And when a person doesn't know where I end and where the other person starts, that's when the people pleasing starts. Because guess what? I'm coming in that environment where I don't know if I'm a different person. There's no differentiation, so enmeshment that I'm like trying to read you by my behavior. If I sit like this, if my eyes are like that, that means, oh my God, am I being kind of like micro or like seen in a microscopic way? So I'm reading the room, finding my safety. It's kind of like a fight-of-flight situation. And I would call that as a fawn situation because where I am seeing that, okay, I need to say yes, even though my gut feeling is saying I should not say no. Uh I should say no, but I'm gonna say yes anyway, because that brings harmony. It's coming from survival, it's coming from uh adaptation, it's coming from where I can find safety. First, let me like iron all the creases so I can sit with safety so the other person, I'm not stepping on other person's boundaries. But I will allow you to walk all over mine, but you're more important than I am.
Speaker 1Wow. It's interesting. I think Xana, you and I is a I think we're good at putting boundaries on ourselves, but we are not good at letting other people have boundaries.
Speaker 3I know. I just realized that. Oh my goodness. I just let me ask you this. Um I don't want to assume because I don't run on assumptions. So I'm gonna ask you, what does that mean? That you're you're good with drawing boundaries for yours. You're establishing boundaries is the first level of maturity, right? So what do you mean that you're good with setting boundaries for yourself, but not for others?
Speaker 1I'm I'm not perfect at setting boundaries for myself. I'm getting better at saying no or saying I don't want to do this initial thing, or I'm not, I don't want to talk about this, or this is not the appropriate conversation, or this is a waste of my time to sit here and gossip. I'm good at doing that.
Speaker 3So you're valuing your uh value, you these are you're valuing yourself. Yeah. You value your time, you value your emotions, you value your intellect, you value your uh, you know, um everything.
Speaker 2And it's whatever is valuable to you, whatever your took a long time to get to this point. It's not like I knew how to set boundaries from day one. Oh no. It took a long time for me to get to a point where I can say, I really do not want to have discussion about this. You know, I value my time so much, I value my sanity so much, I value my health so much, and I don't have time for this. So this is not my priority right now. But it took a long time to get there. But even then, like listening to you about creating, you know, emotional safety and all, I see a lot of women in Park, I mean, in the New York community, and this is where I have been for the last 30 years. 95% of them are exactly what you're describing. You know, they care more about creating the harmony and you know, people pleasing and really not being themselves. So when I am looking at them from a distance, I'm like, oh my God, I wish you would do it a little differently because you have so much going on for you. I wish you would value yourself a little bit more.
unknownYeah.
Speaker 3So imagine where it's starting from.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 3Are we born with that? And but how early does it start? I don't know. We are conditioned with that. Sometimes these people pleasing come from a young age. It all depends. There's no set rule that, okay, I'm born in this family, therefore I am um, you know, people pleasing, people pleasing, all it can come from a very secure family as well. You are in one relationship that you put your all eggs in one basket and that person rejects you or harmed you, and now you're self-doubting. You're having second guesses that, oh, oh my God, like I lost that safety within me. Now I've been exposed. So now I have to be really, can I expose myself again? So I'm gonna be very careful. So this people-pleasing behavior can start from any age, from any place.
Speaker 1It's true. Remember, you know, I'm newer to the Pakistani community in New York. I've only been here a few years, and then I was raising too many babies and working too much of the COVID IC, to be honest. But it's funny. I've met a few now, and the first conversations are always preparing me how I'm supposed to integrate into the Pakistani community. Still. Oh, I know, oh still, oh, you're new here. Let me I know these people, and let me tell you, they're gonna judge this and that. And it's funny because, you know, I've heard these conversations, I've lived through them, I've like um not lived. I they're setting me up for what I'm supposed to expect to go into the Pakistan community. And it's funny, and I listen and I take it with a grain of salt, but I don't really, this is me, but I don't really care, A, because that's their assumptions of everything. I'm allowed to make my own experiences, relationships. But at the same time, I think my boundaries and my confidence, like my boundaries probably came from the confidence. I don't care. Their experiences to me are also so petty. Like if I am not going to be what many people have been telling me is basically if you're not this or so and so, or live here or do this or have this, you're not gonna be able to do it. And you're not gonna be accepted. Yeah, you know what? I'm I'm pretty proud of what I've accomplished in my 41 years. I know I think I have a lot more to accomplish. I have so many goals, they're not all academic or financial or they're just experiences more so. But when I hear these pep talks, I call them, it's so laughable at this point right now because they're also implying. Sometimes I'm like, are they looking at me and saying, I don't have enough? Because that's now what's running through my mind. And I, you know, they're just laughable to me. But I think it's because of the person I am.
Speaker 3I'm but imagine from a very empathetic uh way. I'm uh again, I'm not coming as like a clinical, we are just talking as a I would love you can do all of that. You can do all of that. I'm not here a vibration because I I'm not working as a clinician, but I'm just ask, just listening to you as like a common command, common uh sense. I'm saying, like, can you see how I use it like petty, and I'm saying, imagine you are threatening their harmony. You're threatening, you're bringing a fresh breath of fear, you know. They are not used to. They are used to in certain A, B, C, D. Very structured. And now you're bringing all of the sudden, you're saying, okay, I'm not gonna go in a very like orderly form. I'm gonna bring some authenticity. And they said, uh-uh, uh-uh, what are you doing? This there's a system, you need to be within the system to keep the system going, and you're bringing threat, you're bringing something new, which they're not uh they don't know how to navigate around you. So they're trying to sing, please change into this so that way you can keep the system going. And you're saying, I'm gonna break the system. Guess what? That's my safety.
SpeakerYeah.
Speaker 3And they're saying your safety is my threat, and you're saying your safety is my threat.
Speaker 2So I have a question. So, do Pakistani women feel guilty for saying no? Is this where they completely get stuck?
Speaker 3Yeah, like what what do you mean? Like they they feel guilty? Yeah. Of course, imagine we are taught from a very young age, there's a reasonable. Guilt is real, you're saying. Yeah, we are all running on guilt. Because guess what? If you don't wake up six o'clock in the morning, make breakfast for your child, and uh don't drop them at school. And if their homework is done and it's not in the bag, it's your fault because you did not remind your child, uh, you did not prepare them, and now you're dropping them, and then here all other moms are signing up for um volunteer, and you're not volunteering because you're going to work, you're choosing work over your child. Yeah, they're not a good mom. You see how we are running on guilt every single day. Oh, uh, you're even if you're not working, imagine you're not working. Then another working woman, especially when you said when I was listening, how a women sometimes bring the other woman down by saying, You don't even work, what are you doing all day? And your child is not doing homework. Like somehow every you are the backbone of the family. If your marriage falls apart, your problem. If your child fails in the test, your problem. If your child is running late, your problem. If your husband somehow is not doing well, you must not be giving him enough peace at home. Therefore, he is not performing well at his work.
Speaker 1Yeah, I know.
Speaker 3So imagine goodness. So imagine from a day one, we have created that so-called God in the house. Everything runs on you. You, everything, and at the same time, everything is your fault.
Speaker 2Wow, regardless of the thing.
Speaker 1And yes, and but it goes back to that saying that you are really the face, the name, the identity, the lineage of your entire family. Exactly. And it doesn't end because it never ends.
Speaker 2Taima, I really think one time you and I are going to read Bahti's waves together.
Speaker 1I don't do well with rules for life. Like, really, I would love for you to read that book. You know, I I think, you know, I need a lot of self-help. I think everyone does. I mean, to be honest, I just don't do well with a guidebook of rules. If that's what it is, I'm a little sash for it. But you know, I think I would you and I would have fun reading and the analysis we'd have. Absolutely, absolutely. If I don't throw it out the window.
Speaker 2But so dark. I mean, uh, Naila, what can we take away? What can the viewers take away from what we discussed today? How do you get out of this? Or is there something pleasing?
Speaker 3Yes. I would say forgive yourself. The first thing, healing, right?
SpeakerYeah, healing.
Speaker 3It's hard to heal. First thing is finding harmony within yourself. And by fine harm finding harmony, giving yourself space, I'm human. I wish I could control my son's uh uh grades and daughter's uh upbringing, like she has to be pleasing every single person. So just having saying that I am human, take a deep breath. Give yourself space to be who you are, and it could be messy, it could be perfect, whatever the perfect is for you, everybody's perfect in their own way, but just having acceptance of yourself, of yourself.
Speaker 1I think that's so hard because so many women also don't know who they are because they're people pleased externally for so long that they've never really had a chance to solidify their identity. But it's a start.
Speaker 3It's a start just having forgiveness for themselves that yes, I messed up. Even if they messed up, even if I show up, like for me, for instance, I showed up as raw. Like just being who whatever version of you are you are the best in your own self. There's no competition, there's no comparison, there's no judgment. Just leaving the judgment behind and just saying I'm okay wherever I am.
Speaker 2And then how long does the transformation take?
Speaker 3Oh, what have you seen in your clients? It all depends. I have seen um it all depends. Where they are in their own journey. So I have seen people who know they want change, but they don't know where to start. They're stuck in the in their own, you know, thinking. And that's what we do as a coach. I sit next to them. We open their entire luggage in front of them, not as a therapist. I'm not asking them to look what happened. They need to know their pattern, why they are pleasing others. What is one question they can ask themselves? What is the intention?
Speaker 1Do you have any strategies by how they can implement that? I'm a big like pen to paper girl. I like make lists, I make thoughts. Even when I'm trying to deconstruct things I don't like about myself that I don't want to move on to my son and daughter, I make lists. Like this is something, and I it's raw sometimes. So, what are some strategies you have used or you think would benefit people to help organize their thoughts when they have a desire to change, but they don't know to go about it? And they may not have the means to find a therapist or they're not ready to find a coach to go about this journey. How can they individually with themselves sit down and organize themselves to approach this?
Speaker 3Okay, so for uh people pleasing. Yes. So people pleasing, first they ask who make a list. What is important for them in life?
Speaker 1Love a list.
Speaker 3Right, make a list. Um my relationship with my husband is important. Um being prepared for the day is important. Whatever their thing is. So I bring the wheel of wellness the very first time when the clients come in and they say, I want to change, but I don't know where I'm not competent and where I'm not enough. So I asked them to draw a circle, make nine sections, and write what are your different parts of your life that you are fulfilling, your relationship, yourself, your intellectual need. We have all those needs. I uh family is your need, um, friends' connection is your need, your um health is your need, your intellectual stimulation is your need, your emotional safety is your need. So just make all the list and see what you are doing. And if just map it up and see if I am usually women are abandoning themselves. And it's it's like a best way of seeing where you are investing more. Some people are investing more in relationships, not relationship, then ask what am I doing to keep this relationship, right? Or is it mutual? Okay, right. And if they see that this part is taking over all my life, that I have no time for finding my hobbies. I have no time to spend time with my kids because guess what? I'm in survival mode. I'm like seeing, okay, I have to do this, this, this, this, this, and I am I'm unable to come to me. I'm on the backseat. That is the first uh I would say sign that soon you're gonna say, you know what, I cannot control everything. I'm gonna just quit.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 3So knowing what you are every single day, how where you are putting yourself secondary.
Speaker 2So that was your feedback for your strategies on you know, women who are the people pleasers. So, what about for women like me who are not the people pleaser, and we have to find balance with the people pleasing women. Are you ready for this advice?
Speaker 3Yes, I are you ready? I'm not I'm not gonna uh do the analysis, but I can just ask you.
Speaker 2So you're always women like me, and I'm sure we have viewers who would be.
Speaker 3So it's like a mirror question. Like um, people who are pleasing others, they ask themselves, why am I pleasing? What is happening within me when the person is in front of me? I have to shift from me to you. Right? Like, why am I your needs are more important than my needs? What is happening within me? Where I'm not finding safety. And for you, if you see somebody bowing down to you, then ask yourself because you can't change. You can change a person's sight, but you cannot change a person's perspective. But you can change yourself and ask yourself, what am I bringing to this relationship that a person has to bow down?
Speaker 2You seem shocked, confused. I am shocked, like I'm speechless, I'm not sure.
Speaker 3I must be bringing something to the table, but because we both are bringing, like, imagine in your sister's situation, right? Um, what are you bringing into the this? Like, you're bringing a lot of confidence, you're a lot bringing a lot like knowing the other person, are they ready? Again, it's not your responsibility, but it's our responsibility how we show up. As when I was uh listening to you guys, you said they are intimidated, you're not intimidating, right? Yes, so they are intimidated, you cannot change their perspective, but if you want, okay, I'm not people pleaser, like do I have to please people? Ask yourself. Yeah. Like, do you have to please people? No. Do you have to please yourself? It all depends on the intention.
Speaker 2I think I have to be very confident and I have to be comfortable with what is confidence, like comfortable with who I am, is I should say. Like, you know, that I should be comfortable with my actions towards other people.
Speaker 3So we have no regrets. Exactly. So the other person who's not confident can then can they be non-confident in front of you? Are you okay with this discomfort?
Speaker 1I have a question for you, Z. Oh no. I'm already worried. Um actually, when you don't feel comfortable because you feel someone is only associating with you because they can get something from you, are you okay with and then you don't like that? Are you okay with just saying this is not the person for me? Well, you know, I'm away from that.
Speaker 2That, you know, maybe I will probably like lend that hand a a few times before I pull back because I do give people I do believe, no, but I believe in giving people chances because that's maybe a way for me to like, you know, get to know them a little bit. And if this is a habit on their part, then I know that's the red flag for me. Okay. Right. Then they I'm not gonna allow for people to take advantage of the situation going forward, but okay. So what what is your auntie moment?
Speaker 1My auntie please moment is um, well, I have a few that came out of this because this was amazing. By the way, you have a very nice way of saying something so clearly, and it takes me a hundred words to say it. So I really admire that. Um, I think my auntie please moment is to try to find, you know, I told I used it this week with in the E that I literally just did not please anyone that I didn't feel um the need to, but to take home, I actually want to implement a lot of. I told you the story about kind of feeling abandoned and hurt by a bunch of girls. I find myself pulling my daughter away in the playground when I feel like someone's being mean to her, but at the same time, I don't want to construct her life based off of my associations and my trauma. So I have to change the way I view females or banter or bullying or whatever it may be for my daughter and allow her to live. So my husband tells me all the time, she'll be fine. She has to navigate this world. And if you pull her away, it's going to backfire. You know, you can't always be there for her. You have to allow her to build the tools necessary to navigate this world. So the next time a girl is mean to her at the playground, my immediate sense will not to be grow to go grab her. It will be to analyze the situation, knowing this will happen to her and provide her with the right words and tools to maybe navigate it instead of pulling her away. Because it took me 10 years to build those tools after that happened. And I'm she's not going to be the same as me. So you're allowing her to be her. Yeah, I see three words, and it took me 15. Right, Simon. Did you learn something? I talk too much. I talk too much. Okay, sorry, sorry. That isn't necessarily easy. So why can't I sound so smooth?
Speaker 2And it's like I think for me, learning from this session is that I'm going to be more conscious of where I need to be people please versus where I need to continue to be myself and not be a people pleaser. So, you know, like relationship with my family, if it's that important, then I will, you know, give that more thought as to why my sister may be pushing me back. You know what I mean? It's like I need to be more mindful of what somebody else is going through versus me pushing my confidence and my com comfort and my non-pleas uh people pleasing, you know, persona onto them.
Speaker 3So are you saying that you're gonna be more mindful of her intellectual boundary, that she knows what is good for her?
Speaker 2And you're gonna I will not be so judgmental so quickly. Okay. And so next time somebody is a people pleaser, not just my sister, in general, I would like to understand where they're coming from before I say you need coaching.
Speaker 3Okay.
Speaker 2You need my coaching.
Speaker 3So can I give you guys like a um viewers a permission slip? Please do. Okay, so I would say to all the viewers and the list listeners today, take three minutes minimum, three minutes to yourself. Just take a deep breath, find a cup of coffee, do something that pleases you. Whether it's just watching um unnecessary TV or going for a walk, just choose yourself over three minutes, nobody's gonna die, I hope. But take three minutes for yourself and see how it feels.
Speaker 2Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. See you next time.