Midlife - The Label No One Asked For

Nobody hands you a card that says you've arrived in midlife — it just starts showing up in how people talk to you and what you're expected to have figured out by now. In this episode of Auntie Please, Zainab and Saema take apart the word itself: who assigned it, what it's supposed to mean, and why it arrives loaded with assumptions about being settled, being done, being past the interesting part.

Rather than adopting what they have been given as the midlife label, they talk about how it can be a time to reinvent yourself, a time of beginning not declining.

Auntie Please is an honest conversation about midlife, identity and expectation for South Asian women — the things we only say to each other.

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Auntie Please content is for educational purposes only and it is not medical advice. Please consult with your own doctor. 

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All right. So where do you want to start? Start. Oh, what did you do this weekend? Actually, you are going to love what I did this weekend. You know, we were talking about labeling in midlife, versus middle age versus menopause. All the labels. It was really bothering me a lot because I'm like, I need to get to the bottom of what this really means, and I really want to meet that one person who started it all.

So I went down the rabbit hole. I love a good Zee rabbit hole and waking up to text from 12 a. m. Well you asked for philosophical Z the last time. So you're going to meet her today, right? So I went down the rabbit hole. I did a lot of research and a lot of reading, so I found something that I think helped me understand this phase of my life better.

Okay. Right. And I think you're going to like it, too. What'd you find? So I have all the facts right here. So I'm going to go. Let's start with Carl Jung. Heard of him? Have you? Yeah. We have to learn about him. I already love him, okay. So Carl Jung Swiss psychiatrist, 1930s. He introduced the concept of midlife. And here's the thing that stopped me.

He never gave it an age. Interesting. Yes. You know, no number, no deadline. He describes it as a psychological transformation, a turning inward. Okay? So the moment you stop performing for the external world and start asking who you actually are underneath all of that. I just loved it. He called it one of the most significant stages of human development, and he meant it as a gift.

Make note. He meant it as a gift. And it was not gendered. Not medical, but human. Interesting. Like the complete opposite of what we define it. Correct? Correct. Now, let me tell you about the next person that I googled and actually talked to Claude about, Robert Wilson. And then I found that he's an American gynecologist, 1966. And this man took Jung's gift and turned it into a medical problem specifically for women.

Yeah. He wrote a book called Feminine Forever. He said menopause made women obsolete, deficient, that without treatment, they would expire like milk. Oh, God help us. Right. And that book actually became a global bestseller. Can you believe this? Oh, yeah. And it shaped the way doctors spoke to women. It shaped how women understood their own body and their own timeline.

So, doc, men got Jung's version. Wisdom, depth and distinction. Women got Wilson's version. A medical event that announces your decline. So, in other words, you know, men got a philosopher and women got a gynecologist. So make it make sense. It's interesting because medically we do tend to relate midlife to the hormonal changes. Menopause and midlife are different. They may have some overlap, but even in medicine to patients, they're educated by the latter's definition of who we are.

And that is really stuck. Did you know that, interestingly, men also have a testosterone decline or in their mid 30s? And no one has labeled, defined put into a chapter at all. And that was the next thing I was going to tell you about, because I couldn't help but thinking about and actually genuinely getting upset about it, because we always hear this term associated with men called midlife crisis.

So he goes through this midlife crisis. He goes by the porsche, he leaves his job to find himself. And then most midlife men, I mean, midlife crisis men go get themselves a younger girlfriend. We nod. We celebrate them, and we leave them alone. Now imagine if a woman had to do this and we are telling her, please go.

Take care of yourself in silence. So women know. Men get celebrated, women get a prescription. Make it make sense. They get a permanent permission slip. I'm not trying to hate on them and all, but it's just. It makes me wonder how much these labels we defined on women when there is no label for a man, have really influenced the acceptance of what we're allowed to be and what we're allowed to do.

But why is there such a double standard? Like, I would like to meet that aunty that started at all. Really? Like who started this really blows my mind that men always get away with. And I'm sorry. Nothing against men, I love men. You know. But why is it that they get the trophy and we're on the other end explaining our existence?

Well, I think you brought up a good point. You just mentioned. I want to meet the woman who did this. So we're implying that it's a female versus a male, and it very might be so, because that female probably was also labeled. And when you're labeled so much that external label now becomes internal identity. So that's interesting.

A lot of time women blame, oh it's men that superimpose it on us. Men that labeled us. But you mentioned a female just now, I'm assuming, because I think this is probably something woman would start because women always label each other. Right. So this is where I thought maybe the women who actually started it, you know, I would love to meet her.

I know her too, but it brings up a point that maybe this woman is doing it because women do label often. I agree with you. It's because she's also been labeled so much that it's now become her identity without her even consciously knowing that she has taken into that label, and that's who she is. You see what I'm saying?

That we've never been really allowed, we've never been given a chance to each other, a chance to define our own identity when it's so superimposed on us, whether it's a numerical label which is common in the West, whether it's a hormonal label, which is common in medicine. So when we have all these labels, have we ever given ourselves a chance to really understand our own identity?

So it may well be a woman. Well, so the enemy of us is another woman. Yes. Assuming in many ways. Yes. My God, it's a little bit deep there, but it's the reality. Because this is what happens when you label people, right? And the label for women, if you're saying that these definitions were created how many years ago you said and they've stuck and then they've now become the norm in medicine to implement in patients.

But why are you talking about medicine? We're talking about menopause. This has nothing to do with this whole, like, ugly label. Can we just talk about this label? The label. But the label has come from two different avenues. You said one was given a behavioral, psychological, physiological, philosophical label and the other one was a medical one. And they're totally different.

The men were the psychological one. The women were the more medically defined by a doctor. That right. What was now spat out. And for decades we'd been listening to that. So they're very separate things, but the women are labeled based off of both. You see what I'm saying? Does that make sense? No. Make it make sense. So women are traditionally midlife in medicine has also been defined by an age, but usually with hormonal changes.

Right. I get that part. But then where did that, like, you know, where did they where did the two labels started to get married? Well, they weren't allowed to have the first label because it's philosophical. The actual midlife label that allowed someone to grow and burst at the seams and define who they are that was lost, Jung's was lost.

Yeah, it became the latter that this is what midlife is. And now we're going to implement that. Jung's version is supposed to be a gift. But when it comes to women, that label became a negative. Yeah. Who turned this into a negative is what I'm trying to understand. I want to get to the bottom of this today.

I think it's because, in my opinion, I think we're hearing a lot more about midlife, too, is because it's imposed on us that at a certain age that you have entered now midlife, and then you have all the changes that happen with that and that gets put into that. But Jung doesn't describe it as a certain age you're entering it.

You're saying, you know, it's an inward transformation. So I could have been in my midlife when I was 35 getting that clarity and then, you know, direction and whatnot. Right. So where did this age factor come into? I think when the GYN doctor. Oh my God, what do we do with all the... I know, which is what we don't want.

Midlife is just this sprinkle, right? But it's now being thrown in our face all the time. And it has been really for decades. But he related it more. So medically. What's happening is a change. And that became our label and that isn't our label. That shouldn't be the labels. By the way, the changes that happened medically or spanned two decades.

So you're right. 35. You could have been midlife at 25. You may have mentally been in life. It really depends. But the reality is, we were never allowed to burst at our seams and grow when we were kind of put into this cohort of Zainab you're midlife now. Oh, I mean, what does that mean when I ask you Zainab, ou're a midlife woman or I define you?

How does that make you feel? It makes me feel like I am at the end of my rope, and that I have nothing else left. For me, it's a negative. Mentally, it's a negative for me. Like, I don't want to hear that term. It's like I just don't know how to help people translate that into something positive because it's not supposed to be something negative.

Correct. You know, and that's why I keep looking at all the men to see. Okay. Well, how do they do it? Yeah. How do they do it? They don't have this? They're called midlife crisis. I think that is actually a much worse terminology in my opinion. You know the crisis part, don't you think?

To me, the crisis. But when men. At least I'm not going through my so-called midlife, right? I think that they get a little bit of a soft spot for the midlifers, we get the oh midlife, when I if I were to be labeled midlife, which I have been labeled midlife, what does that make me feel. I question it. I don't actually know how that makes me feel, because I'm not sure what midlife is supposed to mean.

Like, what is it? What is what does midlife woman look like? What does the woman in midlife look like? I would love to meet her. She doesn't have a definition. I think to most societies it's a number, maybe a hormone. Maybe it's your role in life. You're married, you have kids, you're in your career.

Or maybe sometimes it's the beginning of wrapping it up or slowing down. So sometimes I don't know. I don't like that definition that you just like, you know, what if it's the beginning. Because in the way you are describing that it's a decline. And we're not in a declining phase. We're just in phase of arrival, I guess.

I don't know, I think, you know, this brings me back to a moment when I finished training and started my career, became an attending physician. And, you know, my job was secure. And then I got married and I had my kids, and I remember being at a play date and someone said, oh, now that you have your kids, don't you think you should slow down?

Go. Oh, really? And first of all I am certain no one would ever say that to a man. I know that, and I had my jaw dropped open. What do you mean, slow down? Hey, are you implying I can't do it all. Are you implying that now my label in your mind should change? Are you implying that everything I've worked so hard, including my marriage, my kids, and my career, something has to sacrifice.

There were so many negative thoughts that went through my mind. But this was not one person. I still get this all the time. Oh, are you still around on the weekend. You know you still work in the ICU. Isn't about time you stopped doing that. Now that you have a family. Well, and I bet these are all women asking you, they are only women.

Of course. First of all, men would probably be terrified to ask me about it because of who I am. But in general, actually women. Remind me, I have to tell you what a man once said to me. Go on, tell me now. Tell me now. You want me to? Okay. Well, so I was met with the most absurd comment from a husband of another friend.

Okay? They came to my house, they loved where I lived. And, you know, and this is the first time I had actually met the man, the husband. And he said to me, well, what is it that you do? Oh, yeah. See, that's the reaction. So I looked at him and I said, well, if I was a man, would you ask the same question?

I love that, right. And oh, you want to know the the love part of this? I'm no longer friends with the wife.

I'm sorry. This is actually the reality of it. Like exactly my point, right? And I'm like, wow. And we used to be really good friends, but the husband didn't like the way I responded. So I'm like, okay. So you responded, as a grown woman who's built her life to where it is, and she didn't like that. Correct. And he did not like that.

And I'm no longer, you know, friends or have access to his wife or that circle. I'm just going to say you may not want that access anymore. I know, but it's like, that's what that's what I've been doing. Proving the point. Exactly. You know, and the other thing that I was thinking about when you were talking about your example is at work, you know, I mean, you know, I was born deaf, so I had, you know, invisible disability.

And I've been working my, I would say A double S off all my life to, you know, be where I am today. Right? Like it's not been easy in my career, but when I see men, you know, at my age, at my level getting their way much easier, that really pisses me off. As my boss will say to me after a comment I would make in conference room, he'd be like, Zee, you know, be true to yourself, but you know, you won't get away with this because like, you're a woman, you'd get away with it if you were a man.

You cannot say all these things and expect to get away with it. You watch yourself. So I'm like, which one is it? Be true to yourself. But like, you know, you can't get away with it. So that comes with a huge label, correct. Another label problem. So it's like there's always a disconnect. Like as women we're always asked to shrink.

You know, I can't stand on my two feet. I can't have a good home. I can't have a good income. I could not be doing all this by myself. So, I mean, there's a lot of label, there's a lot of disconnect. I don't know, how do you feel about this? It's true. I feel like these labels and what's imposed upon us in other people's definitions of how we're supposed to be they really want us to shrink.

But I don't know about you. I'm in my early 40s, and I feel like this decade is my favorite. I was always scared of getting older, but the person I am now, how I feel, my confidence, my growth, how I want to expand. I'm really pouring out from inside with all I want to do, and I'm confident I am at this age, but everyone else wants me to shrink.

It's a very good point. And how do you deal with that in a public forum? First, you have to deal with it internally before.. Definitely, definitely, most definitely. Because the forum isn't ready yet. The public is not ready. They have their labels. They'll never be ready. And I'm telling you, like in the last two years, this term midlife has become huge.

It's everywhere. And I'm like, why are people, and it's only women, that are talking about it? I don't see men talking about it as much or ever, but it's the women that are actually promoting it so much. And I want to stop everybody and say, guys like, come on, you know. And after what I read this weekend about Carl Jung, I'm like, you know how we got labeled?

I wish I could really just sit everybody down and give them a piece of mind. Well, I think it has to start personally inside of each of us, to be honest. So how do we define ourselves and who do we see ourselves right now, tomorrow? Next week? I think that's a moving target for most women because this is our first time living this life.

We have no idea who we're going to be. The person I am at 25 to 28 to 32 to 38 to this now to 41 to probably next week. Who knows what I'll be because I'm learning myself. I'm learning from my external environment, but I'm also processing it internally and spitting it out so it changes. It's a moving target, but if we try to.

I think every woman needs to do this in order to learn who we are as females, but who we are individually. We're allowed to be individuals first of all. So how are you suggesting? I mean, I say we are, you say we are. We're telling everyone else. We are. We're hoping to tell everyone else that they're allowed to be who they are.

But how would you do that? Well, first of all, I would try to stop people from defining me as a midlife women. So the next time somebody tells me this, I'll just have to stop them and say, listen, you know, I'm not midlife. I'm becoming. Is that your auntie moment? That's my Auntie Please Moment. Because I think it's about time we do this.

The more I hear women say it, it makes me really, really sad because we're doing it to ourselves. We're kind of like feeding into our brain that this is who we are. This is what we're becoming. And by the way, let me back up for one second is that you were talking about, you know, that we've been going on, you know, historically with so long, our generation, like we're the first generation talking about this, our mothers, our grandmothers and, you know, and even a couple of years ago, nobody had language for this, you know.

Right. So now that we have language for it, I feel like it's so overused it's not even funny. And we're making ourselves like, you know, a victim to this whole thing, and we're putting ourselves in a box. In a box, exactly. So this is why, like, lately, you know, especially after reading what I've read now about Carl Jung, I really want to stop women from doing this.

I really want them to take a look at it and say, listen, you're not, you're not declining, you are transforming. And you've got to look inward and you have to correct this terminology. So everyone, every time somebody says to you, your midlife, your middle age, stop it. You know, stop them and correct them and it's okay to correct them.

It is okay. And I love that you do that because I think that's something culturally also like to say something so bold would be so frowned upon. Growing up, I always was very bold and blunt and I would say stop or have very black and white answers. And I remember my mom would sit in the back like shaking.

But it's one of, as an adult now that we have these conversations, is one of the things she told me she's most proud of me for, for setting my ground and being very bold. But as a kid growing up, she was like, oh my God, I wonder what looked like it was going to happen. My God, but I love that you're doing that.

But that's yeah, she's very proud that I do that. I just don't know how the aunties are going to take it, but because they're probably the one who set the standard, first of all, right, to reevaluate their own standard. Right. Because if they're doing that to you, they're doing it. They're doing it doing it out there. Right? Yeah.

They're not allowing themselves to learn and learn who they are and grow to be honest, because when they label everyone else their labeling themselves. But the problem is the reason is they're actually so busy trying to meet everybody else's expectations, they really don't know who they are. So that's the problem. How are we going to learn how we are?

I think that's what we need to talk about because this is a known thing. Now, you know. Right. They've never been given the opportunity because there's always been a label imposed on them every few years. Whenever they did it from like, you know, their grandmothers and their grandmothers, and it's all the system, you know, that's like passed down.

We all inherited it, you know. So I think somewhere down the lane, like we've all forgotten who we really are. So I think we need to help our friends, our circles like find that interest. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. So what would that permission slip be? So I think I'm going to continue on the permission slip I gave myself a few years ago when I finished my training, and I became mom and wife and wanted to run the house and be present for all my kids.

A lot of female doctors from previous generations weren't able to do that, because they didn't want to say no to the extra shift, they didn't want to say no to staying late. And I, when I had my kids started saying no, no extra night shift, no extra week shift, and allowed myself to be mom and wife and go out with my husband and have boundaries for everything.

And I want to continue being able to do all of the things I do on my terms. And I started that after I had my kids when I wanted to be present, I hope to continue doing that. It's very hard, but allowing myself to say no to things I don't want to do and things I want to do. But how would you do it?

Like, I mean, okay, you're doing it because you've been doing it for a while and you're enforcing it, but how would you help somebody like me? Or like, you know, our friends like the process of it. Well, I think it has to I think I would this is a hard one for me because I do a lot of this stuff and I have to learn through it.

And when we're chatting earlier, I had a really hard time defining the steps on how I would do that. I think I like the way you're doing it by saying, no, I'm not this, and then reflecting on who you are and who you want to be. And that may be that may change every day, every week. But saying no to the labels imposed on you and taking time to figure it out is also okay.

So yeah, I think one of the things that helped me, you know, figure this out is by noticing, because you can't make changes if you don't notice what you're needing to change. Right. So notice. Yeah. So that's just notice like stop yourself in whatever situation you're in, whether at work or in family or with friends. Stop and notice where those labels are coming from.

And I think the second thing is you have to kind of reframe it like, is this happening to you because you're conditioned this way, or is it what you really want to become? The one you become when you find that intersection? I feel like that's where you can decide this is the way you want to be, and this is you becoming.

Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. I remember if there's any moms listening with playdates. Playdates can be one of the most intimidating things. I would not know, man. It's a whole thing. So they can be great, but they can also be very intimidating when you're asked a lot of questions about what you do, how you do it, and why you do it.

Really, please enlighten me. And I remember another mom when I was sitting and playing with my daughter and my son on the play date asking me, oh, it's a birthday party, actually. And she asked me, oh, I'm so surprised you're here. Most doctors aren't here. They send the nanny or they don't have time for this. And I remember finding that.

So I'm aware that for many women that's okay I understand and that's good for them. And I'm proud of them. And but I, I was shocked that this woman had labeled me as only a doctor and not as a me or a mom or really. And I remember being angry. But, you know, you have to keep the composure for the parties for many reasons.

And so I remember baking, I didn't really I naturally went to this party because I wanted to, but I made a conscious effort to just be present for every birthday party and every social gathering. It was very shocking. And so I met all of them. Pluses and minuses to that too. Yeah, but I am present that it was such a very bold label of being a doctor that for many women, you know, my mom couldn't make a lot of my social gatherings and we had the best nanny in the world.

She was like my second mother, but. And that's okay. But the assumption in a negative way that I wouldn't be present for my kids was just my question when I was present, first of all. So even when you are present it is not good enough in the sand, in the dirt on the ground. So question for you was that from the Pakistani community?

So it actually was, it was, you know, it was. Oh, I'm always very curious. Is this something that is like? But it's come from. Oh no, no, I've had the same question from women of other cultures really. So this is a thing. I'm going to say this is a thing, and I think it's a female thing because it tends to be more moms.

Well, maybe I'm only interacting with them more. Moms come to birthday parties in my friend group at least. Yeah, I drive my husband to all of them for social support. Maybe in general, I've had this question not once, but first. I'm telling you about the first time, like oh, you around on the weekend? Well I can actually choose to say no and be present for my kids social activities.

It is very interesting the amount of data I'm gathering from birthday parties. I mean, I can do a psychological study on birthday parties. I would love to be a fly on the wall, you would probably leave. Really. I mean, it's interesting you find your people and you stick to your people. But yes, it is.

Yeah. I'm not a kid person. I can't wait for a drop off. Then I'm really worried about what are people saying to my daughter? I'm superimposing on them, but that's a whole other conversation. This has been really interesting. So I think Carl Jung would be pleasantly surprised and happy. Maybe turning in his grave. We actually brought this back to the world.

His gift or non gendered way. Right. So I mean, I think this is a really important conversation. I think it's a great one. I think Carl Jung's motive was to remove sex, which I could you know, I definitely play into a lot of his things, but I agree with him more. So I agree with you. I wish no, I mean, I am his biggest fan I am actually now... buy all the books I would actually, I really would after what I read about him, I'm like, no, this is what I need to know and this is what I can maybe like, you know, translate in Urdu and like publish in Pakistan so people can read it

and women can read it, and maybe some of those aunties can read it too. Yeah. Okay. You know, because I, I have a feeling those, those labels started with them. His, his assessment was actually almost like a workbook. Like what he defined what he says. Yeah. You basically it's like a journal topic based off of his description.

What would every woman list who they are? That would be an interesting one. Actually, I like that you want to go down that list three things. Who am I? Yeah, I'm Saema, yes, I am a very complex, annoying, very challenging person. But I do it all. I do think I do a good job of doing many jobs I have.

I don't know if I'm doing them well. Only time will tell. But I am not just a doctor. I'm not just a mom. I'm not just a wife. I'm Saema and I can do everything. That's personally how I look at myself. It's challenging, but I do it. Yeah, who I am going to be in my next stage of life.

I put that in maybe next phase, I don't know. I have no idea. That's part of my journey, so I don't have an answer. But what Carl Jung says is something I want to reflect on almost weekly, to see who I am becoming and where I'm not allowing myself to become. Yeah. Blocking yourself? Yes. Yeah. I love that for you, and for me

So I am Zainab and I am very curious. And I'm very intense. Okay. Three things. Okay. They keep me on track. Yes, yes, yes. I'm intense. This is a label that has gone, you know, with me for decades. I'm 53 and I have never been told otherwise. Every boss of mine, every friend of mine, my late husband, everybody thought I was intense.

And they were probably right. And it's okay. And I'm not everybody's cup of tea, nor do I desire to be everybody's cup of tea. But reading what I read about him and because, you know, I told you last time that I have been into philosophy. That's what I graduated in. I love that I'm always discovering. Yeah. So I love this discovery about Carl Jung.

Biggest fan I love it biggest, definitely. You know, I think I'm going to start pursuing my PhD in philosophy and like read a little bit more about him and maybe like do the after like the next version of the project. I remember before we came, before we were filming, someone said that I'm very loud, I'm very loud, I've been loud since birth.

And it's funny because I am very loud and sometimes I speak too loud too, and people don't. But I am a loud, proud, bold person. And I'm proud of you for that. I am proud of myself for staying like that. Since birth to death. There's been some hiccups along the way, but I have just, I'm a very blunt, loud, proud person.

And you know what? I may not be in a couple of years. I may not feel the need to be. I think you are just going to grow from your time. Don't underestimate yourself, my friend. We need friends that are like women, friends that would actually lift and support us in the right way, right? And for me, this was about like my ability to go out and do this podcast, because now I'm saying things that I would have never otherwise said.

There, I said it. We need each other. We need, you know, I, I love your 12 a. m. text, but you know what? I need rest. So I put you on pause and I need my rest. Oh, is that why you haven't been responding? Because, you know, I know you normally respond to me, in like five minutes. This is what I love about you.

I have a cut off time. Oh. I must say, you push my cut off later, I like I love my sleep, so proud of that. But it's okay. In the morning, I wake up super early, like I'm at 5 a. m., so that's why I respond at 5 a. m.. Yeah, but then I tap out at 11 am, so I'm up at five and then I respond accordingly.

You'll get a response. Yes. I'm not going to. Well, okay. I'm sorry, I'm going to no, don't apologize. Because if you don't send me the midnight text, then I can't respond at 5 a. m. And if you want to send me a text at 11, you're not going to get a response. Got it, got it. See, this is how we lift each other.

Okay. Anything else we want to cover? No, I don't think so today, you know, So we've determined we love Carl Jung, but we don't really love Robert, what's his name again? We love Carl Jung's definition of this. Yes. We have some other questions on him. Robert Wilson is not really my friend right now, you know. Yeah. But we've determined that's okay.

So this is great. I love a lot of things that we learned today. Yes. Yeah.