Words Have Meaning

Differences between the types of worship and love in Christian and even secular understanding. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Alright, thanks folks for joining us again on the journey through spiritual warfare with us. Um we're doing words have meaning. Yeah, words have meaning, and uh in today's culture we often forget that we we change what words mean, we use different words to mean other things, so and language, yeah, different languages have different connotations, especially when you go from ancient languages to modern languages and then to English. And English is a hodgepodge of languages too.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Yeah, and even dialect, you think about the United States, what what you hear in the Northeast is going to be different than the South, than the Midwest, and then out in California, they do their own thing. You and I both know that. Oh, sure. Yes, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Um we get um we we there's there's a couple things that are particularly important in the context of Christianity. Um and it's the the difference between worship and honor and love. Yeah. Um and uh in in English, especially in English, there's confusion uh between the general public and and a lot of Protestants uh uh and and Catholics too, about the difference between how Catholics specifically worship God and honor and venerate the saints. Yes. Um and now in in the English language we say we we worship God and honor and venerate the saints, and a lot of the times it's it's kind of in English it's kind of blended together. But in Latin, in the Latin, which is a more ancient language and derived in especially when it's derived from the Greek and the Hebrew, it's different. It's very specific. You know, it's total it's specific and has specif exactly it's got specific meanings.

SPEAKER_02 2:19

When certain words that mean um that have a higher meaning in general, like you'll get a more specific version of it. So things like brother translated to us might just mean family. Like a blood relation. Yeah, it it's not so important that it needs to be hyper specific, but when you're talking about worship specifically in the world, it can be problematic.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Yeah. Because it in in scripture it says you will worship and love God alone, and then say, Well, you worship Mary. Well, and the saints. No. We venerate them. It's like, yeah, but it says you worship. No. Well, in English, it comes across that way. But in in the church, in Latin and in Greek, it's it's three different types. It's uh Latria, Julia, and hyperjulia in Latin. So Latria, right, latria is the worship, adoration, and sacrifice due to God alone. Latria is the supreme worship given to God alone. It belongs only to the Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It's the holy sacrifice of the Mass, it's adoration, it's prayer directly to God, yeah, it's a great thing. Thanksgiving, repentance, sacrifice. You know, it's Catholics never give Latria to the saints or statues or relics or anything that's created. Like Latria is only to God, the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, the Trinity. It Latria is the highest form of worship. We never, never give Latria to anything but God. That's the highest form of worship. Now, that's the thing. I think you can see that that's like worship with the capital W.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

And I think you can see that when when we start prayers in general, we say, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That is very specific to God. You're you're praising God right then and there.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Right. Um, it's very, very specific. Now, there's a there's a lowercase W Worship, right? It's a special honor given to the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mary, called Hyperdulia. Um it's a it's the highest honor given to any creature, because Mary is a creature, right? Mary received the greatest honor other than the highest honor of the other saints, because she's mother of God and the perfect disciple of Christ. She's still a creature.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

And the initi so the initial, you know, uh disciple of Christ, being his his mother and um also known as a prophet because the angels came to her.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Catholics do not worship Mary, especially not in the same way as God. It's not Latria. It's not even the word Latria is not even in there. It's Dulia, it's hyperdulia, hyper meaning more like hyperdulia. She's honored, but she's still asked to intercede, but she's just to intercede for us, but she's not adored as God. A hyperdua, but it's the highest veneration given to a creature, creature. And then there's dulia, not hyperdulia, dulia, dulia, which is honor given to saints and angels. It means veneration or reverence. Um Catholics give dulia to saints and angels because they serve God faithfully, and of course, Catholics do not worship saints. We honor them and ask for their prayers, similar to asking a friend, a faithful Christian to pray for you. Like when I ask you, hey, can you pray for me? Yeah, it's it's dulia, I'm giving you Julia. It's it's it's I'm I'm giving you I'm giving you the opportunity to pray for me. But the difference asking um an angel or a saint, or even the Blessed Virgin Mary, because she's a saint too, she's just the saint among saints, is we're still asking them to pray for us to God, to God to uh you know, provide for us.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

And you know, I think it's uh if you break it down, so each of the saints are known for something specific.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Typically, yeah. So as an intercessor.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

For me, Saint Judah is a saint of lost causes. That's why I've always felt myself to be lost cause, so I I really attach that.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

Oh, like a a sa uh yeah, with Mary, with the Virgin Mary, it kind of it encompasses a lot.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

It really uh focuses on patience, on strength of obedience of the board of the Lord. Like those type of things that that she represented before Christ came. Wow. So we're they they are tools that God put out for us to utilize to help get the message to God. It's it's not a full worship in the sense of God is the same.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

Oh, well, you're doing necromancing, you're praying to the dead. It says in scripture, and you know, that God is the God of the living, not of the dead. That's in scripture. God is God of the living, not of the dead. The the saints and angels in heaven, we'll talk about saints, the saints in heaven are more alive than you and I are. They they are with God.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

And we just talked about that in church yesterday, actually, about how when in the Bible, when Jesus talks about life and and having uh the the bread and the wine is his body and and flesh and blood. Yeah, when it's consecrated. Specifically says life outside of the church.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

Yeah, when when the when the when the Eucharist, when the bread and wine are consecrated, when they're when it's confected into the Holy Eucharist and it becomes the body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus, it unites us with God, right? And in the Catholics, we we be we become united with Jesus. We you know, we we are not separated from the unity of God. We're all part of the body of Christ. And when you go to heaven, the saints in heaven are not separate from us, they're still part of the the church. They're just so the Catholics are closer to us. They are. So the Catholics have, you know, there's a three-part throat, you know, the Trinity is a very popular, the number three, right? Yeah. There's a trinity of parts of the church. There's the church suffering, which is the holy souls in purgatory, there's the church triumphant, which are the saints in heaven, and then there's the church militant, which is us here on earth, because we're fighting the fight to get to heaven. We're fighting the forces of evil, which kind of goes with what we're doing here, journey through spiritual warfare. Yeah. Um, so you know, it's when we pray to the saints, um, dulia, honor given to the saints, or hyper dulia, the special honor given to Mary, we're not worshiping them. We're asking them to intercede for us before the throne of our one Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We're asking them to intercede before the Trinity to hear our prayer, and Latria, worship, capital W worship, is given to God alone. So it it the English language fails it in its proficiency to distinguish between the type of worship that we do. It's a failure of the language, not a failure of what we what we do.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

Yeah, and absolutely, and I mean there's uh a few uh places where we can find worship specifically in the Bible. Um so according to Matthew, um we'll we'll make all the references and everything the best we can uh available in the text. Uh in Matthew, he says, After Jesus was born in Bethlehem and Judea, during the time of King Herod, uh Magi from the caste came to Jerusalem and asked, Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him. So this is talking about the the three wise men and specifically talking uh because they were given insight from the angels about this being the Son of God. Um and so you know they traveled long and far in order to worship the living God, which is Latria.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Yeah, that worship with a capital W, as I say, not dulia or hyperdua. They knew that Jesus is God, not just an earthly king. Yeah, they came to worship God. Yeah, and it's uh it's scriptural.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

There's uh a couple there from Psalms. I don't know if you're gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

So Psalms, so we got and so these scriptural verses are from uh the New International version, um, just to put it out there. Um so from John 4 24, it's God is spirit and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth. Um so th this is worshiping God, you know, the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Um exalt the Lord our God and worship at his holy mountain, for the Lord our God is holy. That's Psalm 99 9. Yeah, it is so I mean it's you know it's all over the place.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

What's great is in the Old Testament, in the New Testament, um, and so we're we're talking about this stuff biblically and historically, but how can we apply it to the way we live now?

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Well, it's really easy to remember, right? We worship God, we honor Mary and the saints, we ask them to pray for us. The Catholic distinction is not different levels of worship, right? It's not different levels of worship. God receives worship, Mary and the saints receive honor.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

It's that easy. And so I think especially for Americans, I don't know how it goes as far as other countries. What we do as Americans is become very problematic, is we put human beings on a level of worship. Uh we see this with our any of top stars, athletes, you idolize them. And this is and I'm guilty of this. Uh most of my life I always idolized uh Bruce Lee. I was like, oh, I want to be like, you know, be like that. And I think it's one thing to want to have a skill and to become as talented as an individual, but when you start to uh idolize and start to worship the ground that these people walk on and take their advice on politics, on how to live life, and all these things, that's when you you're going into worship, and that's where you're failing God. Um and it's we have to remember these are human beings, we have to take our advice on how to live and the way to live from from God and from the Bible.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. And idolization is also a key distinction that we use it almost flippantly, right? Very idolization is either literal idolizing, which is when you worship something physical as God, as a divine being, or like you idolize, lowercase I, as I call it, idolize Bruce Lee, not as a God, but as someone to strive to be. Right. Yeah. We do the same thing with the word love, right? Absolutely. I love this, I love that. But in the Christian sense, love isn't a feeling, right? Love is to choose to want the good for another person according to God's will. Um it's like mercy and patience and affection, but it also means correction and forgiveness. Sometimes, sometimes when you love somebody, you gotta tell them like, hey, you I think you're doing the wrong thing. In in love. Right? Not like, hey, I think you're not, you gotta fly right. I I think you're choosing the wrong thing. It's not judging, it's correction.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

We s we see this in um people in the world who advocate on Christianity and talk about love, and Charlie Craig, for example, has been asked many times before his passing, oh well, if you had a daughter who had an ugly dress on, would you tell her that it was uh it's like well, yeah, if you love someone you have to be honest with them. You gotta that doesn't mean crude, right? Yeah, it doesn't mean be uh relentless in you know downputting, but you can say, hey, late, maybe that doesn't fit you the best, or it's not what you say, it's how you say it. Yeah, and so I think it's just important to remember that.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

And there's different ways to to share your love. There's a there's three or four kinds of love, right? Again, like with honor with worship, there's agape love, which is the highest kind of love, and that's the kind of love that Christ had for us. That's a self-giving, sacrificial love. Christ gave himself for us. Loving even when it loves somebody even when it costs you. That's agape. There's filier or filial love. That's a brotherly friendship, loyalty. That's uh that's the kind of love I have for you and like my brother Colin. It's the filial love. And then there's uh like you know, the family kind of love, and then there's Eros, which is romantic or marital love, you know, erotic love, love between husband and wife. It's ordered towards faithful marriage and a self-gift gift. Um the kind of love that Christ commands us when he says love your enemies is agape, right? It's self-giving love. It's it's the kind of love that you want what's best for somebody. It doesn't mean you have to like them.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

Yeah, it a lot of times it's the one that hurts you the most. Like to to give yourself to someone who's harmed you or whatever the case may be. Um, yes, the people who love us the most can physically and emotionally hurt us, but yeah, for us as individuals, the things that hurt us the most is to put ourselves in a place to forgive or love someone else.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Agape love doesn't depend on emotion. And it's you can st you can still choose to love somebody in agape by praying and forgiving and serving, protecting, telling them the truth, like you said, and most importantly, seeking their salvation and good. But agape love can also include filial love and arrows love, like for your wife. You can all of those stages of love, you can have all of those, but it's not exclusive.

SPEAKER_02 16:44

Yeah, and you know. I think so when it comes to being married and and having that true relationship, you're gonna have a combination of both of those. Yeah, or all of them. You're gonna have the brotherly love, but you're gonna have the the um attractive love as well. The issue is if you don't have that brotherly love, then it ends up leaning towards simply lust.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

And that's that's where you gotta like in and if you don't if you only have Eros love, right, for your spouse, now you have a problem because you don't have agape, which is the self-giving you you don't have the choice to love your spouse. When you wait when you have a fight, you're like, I I that's where divorce happens. Yeah. And you know it's uh our divorce can come into the equation, like, well, I don't I don't like you anymore, so we're gonna get divorced. That's the problem, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:32

And I think most relationships, if not all, uh especially the ones that lead to marriage, we'll start with that attractiveness. Sure. I think that's a physical thing has to happen. It's uh it's not just eyes, it's all physical uh aspect. Like they say, the whole package, right? And you get that brotherly love from being with them, from spending time with them, having fights.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

You learn to like who they are, not just what they are, what they can provide for you. And then the agape love comes. You want what's best for them because of what they are.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

I think you that's when you learn the most about yourself is when it makes some adjustments, you know, uh c uh compromises but you check this like she likes this, I like that. Uh, okay, we're gonna alternate between movies, whatever the case is.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

Even if it's something simple like that. And it's always have to be groundbreaking, right?

SPEAKER_02 18:27

The two things I've noticed in my life, and I think we've talked about this, that my wife and I uh fight about. One tends to be money, and because we have different views, very, very common. The other one is raising kids, and I never expected that to be so confrontational. But man, if you don't learn a lot about yourself and your spouse after having kids and how to raise them, you're failing as a parent because you always have to adapt.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

It's so vital.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Yeah, it really is.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

It's so vital. Uh and charity, caritas, which means love, right, is the is like the theological virtue of love. In Catholic and Christian and in other product, you know, in Christianity language, charity does not only mean giving money or donations. That like everybody thinks charity, oh, it means you know, I'm gonna give money. It's not what that means. It's a supernatural love of God above everything, and like Jesus said, love of neighbor as yourself. That's why Christians can say that love is both a grace from God and it's a commandment from Jesus that we need to obey. Jesus says, Yeah, love your neighbor as yourself. It's a commandment from God. But that's the kind of love, the agape love. You need to love your neighbor, want what's best for them, right? As yourself, because you should want salvation for yourself. Um, right?

SPEAKER_02 19:47

If if you're forced to walk a mile from your enemy, walk two miles, offer to walk two miles. If they ask for your shirt, give them your pants. Like these it it's that is the charity aspect of the thing. But people get confused.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

You gotta you gotta give them one of the precepts of the church is to give and not count the cost. Yes. Um hard. But there there's something that what love is and what it's not. Wanting what's truly good for another person does not mean approving everything that they do. Right? It's Jesus, you know, everyone's like, oh, Jesus ate with sinners. Right, but that doesn't mean he approved of their sin.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

And you know, and this is where and we'll talk about this in another thing, but uh thou shalt not judge. That's kind of and we'll you know, we'll talk about that. That's a whole separate thing. But that's specifically what they're talking about for humans is we can love them, we can approach them.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Want what's best for them, but not approve of what they do. Right. So wanting what's truly good for somebody doesn't mean you approve of what they do. Patient, merciful, faithful, and truthful, that doesn't mean it's a warm and fuzzy feeling. Yeah. You know, it's a choice. Willing to sacrifice yourself for the good of others does not mean you can let that you have to let them harm themselves or somebody else without correcting them or telling them that what they're doing is wrong or what they want to do is wrong. It's not it's not permissiveness, right?

SPEAKER_02 21:09

And this is something you and I know because we served in armed forces uh during war, and so we have kind of another understanding and level of that when you have to trust your brothers to your left and right, and you're willing to sacrifice your life for them for a greater cause. Oh boy, yeah. So um, you know, but it it it's like you know, hey, I love you, but I don't approve the fact that you're friends with me. So you know, it's one of those things that we have to deal with in our relationship.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Yeah, right? Again, it's a trinity, right? Love of God, love of neighbor, love of enemy. Love of enemy does not mean pretending that evil is good, it means refusing hatred, praying for the person and seeking their good and leaving the vengeance to God as much as we can. Um you know, it's it's easy to remember, right? Christian love is not just I feel good about you. It's I choose your true good and truth before God, and I'm willing to act for the true good of another because God first loved me. There's many scriptures, you know. And it's all over the place in scripture.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

But we'll get into I love you because God loves me. And we'll get into other I can only love you because God loves me.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

And the whole point of these first episodes is to kind of get uh an underlining of the importance of these words. And then you know, we will get into some political talking points and where people go wrong. We're gonna talk about what what it's been like for us as individuals with our families, marriage, divorce, raising kids. Oh the whole point of these first few is to get the words themselves out there and it to be understood so that when we talk about our own perseverance in our own battle through spiritual warfare, we we can try and explain in a better way for others to try and learn from that's kind of the thing, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:09

We want to set the stage.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

It's that's the best way to put it.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

One of the things we were talking about, joking about the other day was we should name the podcast Just Hit Record.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Yeah. You know that's because I can be long-winded.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Oh shit, you and me both. What are we at now? Twenty twenty-three minutes plus the intro that we got to do. Look, um, I don't know how you know what's gonna come of this, but you know, I people say this all the time. If one person gets help from this, then that's that's one person. And you know who's gonna get help from it is us us airing what we're saying.

SPEAKER_02 23:43

Airing, you know, and being able to batter through some of these things together. I mean, we we spent a lot of time together, but there are things you don't know about me, I don't know about you, that might just come up. And this is an opportunity for us to kind of air our grievances. It it's I guess a level before uh confession. This is like an opportunity to yeah, just to use our good and bad examples to help inform other people.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

Yeah, and you know, uh I think that it it'll it'll either help or it won't, but maybe it'll help somebody. It'll sure help us. Yeah, absolutely. So again, um if you got any questions, comments, concerns, or criticisms, let us know. And um thanks a lot, folks.