Camp Icons
Welcome to CAMP ICONS! Join Nick and Liz each episode as they take a tongue in cheek look at the life and times of a different Camp Icon, as well as watching and reacting to some of their campest moments! Watch along with the videos linked in the episode description to get the full camptastic experience!
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Camp Icons
Bea Arthur
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This week we’re looking at Beatrice Arthur, a pioneering presence in the American Sitcom, Tony award winning Broadway star and all round camp and queer ally. Watch along with her journey into the Star Wars Universe, her bold and brassy variety special and her unforgettable role in The Golden Girls!
Watch along with with our video section at the link below!
The Stars Wars Holiday Special - https://youtu.be/D6K6ETASu1E?si=zaFNK_KWDXRhL-Ft
The Beatrice Arthur Special - https://youtu.be/jY8l4M5TWtU?si=VUfqMR-TCIskDH7U
‘Bosom Buddies’ at the Tony Awards - https://youtu.be/MHzAYoKtgbw?si=jVnAw3uKnOHz3OU2
Bea at The American Comedy Awards…. with a seal. - https://youtu.be/6fL2rStFnc8?si=M--W_jDA1hu4C2w_
Dorothy and Sophia do Sonny and Cher - https://youtu.be/g3JLu-Y13mY?si=lTJrrArERgW018Ko
We are indebted to those who have originally uploaded these videos, this podcast wouldn't be possible without them!
Follow us on social media for more nonsense:
Instagram - @campiconspodcast
TikTok - @campiconspodcast
Facebook - Camp Icons Podcast
Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of Camp Icons. I'm Nick.
SPEAKER_02And I'm Liz.
SPEAKER_04Hello, Liz. How are you this week?
SPEAKER_02I'm very well, thank you.
SPEAKER_04You're good. I've had my first Camp Icons dream this week. Have you? Yes, I have. I would love to know about that. Um so it was New Year's Eve in the dream, and I was sat in a large hall.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_04And I and I was watching Sue Pollard sing Everybody Wants to be a Cat from Cats. And as the song progressed, we could see on screens that they'd started the countdown for New Year's. Um, and so everybody that was watching her was going, Sue, so you need to stop. Sue, so you've got to stop, it's the countdown. She just wouldn't stop.
SPEAKER_02Oh, well, that is Sue all over, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04Well it is. That's that's my campike on stream for you.
SPEAKER_02Oh, well, if you want more of that, Sue, go back and watch the last episode.
SPEAKER_04You can't watch it. Oh, listen. You can listen.
SPEAKER_02Listen and dream. Dream what it looked like.
SPEAKER_04Um this week we are doing someone that I have a massive soft spot for.
SPEAKER_02I'm very excited as well.
SPEAKER_04We are doing the icon the legend Be Arthur.
SPEAKER_02It's very exciting.
SPEAKER_04Arthur was star of The Golden Girls. That's probably I think what she's most known for.
SPEAKER_02I have to say, I think that's my main reference for her, even though I'm aware that she's done other things.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's that's the thing that I've seen her in, and you know, it's absolutely an amazing show. So I've watched it more than once, and yeah, that's my main reference point for her.
SPEAKER_04I've yeah, I've watched it more times than I should probably admit to, to be honest.
SPEAKER_02I was gonna say, I I know that I haven't watched it as many times as you.
SPEAKER_04We um we've got into this little habit um of of dressing sort of on theme for the subject that we're talking about.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and again, we don't record this.
SPEAKER_04No, it's just audio. We we can just see each other.
SPEAKER_02Um I just feel it's important for me to get into the right mindset of whoever we are talking about.
SPEAKER_04My goodness, haven't you? This week so across from me in the table is a vision in flesh-coloured sequence.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. Um, with a white tie added, uh, which was quite um quite Dorothy, uh Dorothy's Bornack is B. Arthur's character in The Golden Girls, and she quite often had a man's tie.
SPEAKER_02There's a there's a sort of male reference to some of her outfits. Yes. The one I was specifically thinking of, which is one of my favourite outfits ever, of anything, is she wears a green sequin uh like suit with a bow tie.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I know the one.
SPEAKER_02Which is sort of equal parts horrific and amazing. Um which I enjoy very much. So yeah, there's quite kind of a male reference. So I've done like a I've done a white tie over a shirt that doesn't need a tie.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yes.
SPEAKER_02And then I've got sort of wicker coloured earrings.
SPEAKER_04Um some chunky beads as well.
SPEAKER_02Have I? Yes, I have got chunky beads. Yes, because there's it was a bead era. There's always she probably wouldn't do tie and beads, but you know, what are we doing here? Well why can't I?
SPEAKER_04I so I found it slightly more difficult from my own wardrobe to dress as B Arthur.
SPEAKER_02Yes. However, somehow you managed.
SPEAKER_04Well, what happened is I went to a charity shop, and what I was actually looking for was like a big sort of long chunky cardigan.
SPEAKER_02Right, of course.
SPEAKER_04And I went over to where I thought the chunky cardigans were gonna be, and on a hanger was this sort of delightful uh well, it's an 80s blouse, isn't it? Really?
SPEAKER_01Yes, it's again sort of flesh coloured, like a beigey flesh.
SPEAKER_04It's it's not from the menswear department. No, no. To the point To the point that when I took it to the counter in the charity in the charity shop, the little old lady behind the desk put it through and she said, Oh, is is this a lovely gift for someone?
SPEAKER_01What did you say? What did you say?
SPEAKER_04I didn't say yes and I didn't say no. I looked that woman dead in the eye and said, I work in theatre quickly followed up by it's it's a costume. It's I'm I'm buying it for a show I'm developing. To which she said, no. Oh, where are you performing the show? Good question, madam. She's on to you. And I said, It's a piece I'm developing for the Edinburgh fringe. But I had the option of either saying that or saying I'm dressing up as an 80s sitcom character for an audio podcast. And I felt like lying about an Edinburgh show was the better pathway to take.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely the same thing I would have done. Yes. No.
SPEAKER_04Um And I have paired it, I should say, with um a roll neck. Dorothy did like the roll necks.
SPEAKER_01She did, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, right up. It's a nice I don't know if it's nice actually.
SPEAKER_01Right up.
SPEAKER_04Right up. It's a red roll neck with a with a flesh blouse. Flesh coloured blouse. We're not becoming a true crime podcast.
SPEAKER_02No, no.
SPEAKER_04No.
SPEAKER_02Not this week.
SPEAKER_04No. Um that's probably a bit enough about us, really.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yes. Well, I think what we've done there is we've proven we like the golden girls. If in a slightly odd way. Yes.
SPEAKER_04Well I think we've done there is prove that we're both insane.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yes.
SPEAKER_04Um so tell me what you know about Beatha.
SPEAKER_02Well, I I know that she was on another sitcom before the Golden Girls. Yes, um, which I think is called Maud.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_02And I haven't seen that. Um I haven't seen it, but I'm aware that, you know, she was in she was very famous, you know, on TV in the US for a long time. And I I sort of have a memory that she also might have been in the army at some point. I don't know if I'm making that up, but I'm hoping you're gonna tell me. But she always seems I don't know, I have this idea that she had a very cool life before, you know, she was on stage. So I I'm I'm waiting with bated breath for you to tell me the actual details.
SPEAKER_04Okay, so uh Beatrice Arthur is not her actual name.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_04She was born Bernice Frankel.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'd change that.
SPEAKER_04Um she always preferred being called B.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_04Because at the time there were a lot of boys called Burnice. Which was spelled B-U-R-N-I-C-E.
SPEAKER_02A lot.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02There were a lot of boys because I've never heard Burnice.
SPEAKER_04No, I've never heard that either.
SPEAKER_02No, right.
SPEAKER_04There were a lot of cool boys called Burnace. And because of her height, yeah, she kind of she was masculinized, I think.
SPEAKER_02I can see that.
SPEAKER_04She she said she's she was five foot nine and she said she hasn't grown since since she was twelve. Wow, so she was tall from a yeah, tall from a very early age. Now, normally I like to take these facts from people's own words. But B lied in later life about having a military career.
SPEAKER_01She lied!
SPEAKER_04She lied. She um there's an interview with her and somebody says, Did you do this? and she said, Oh god, no. Um and the only reason we know about it is because of the release of military records.
SPEAKER_02Right, yes, of course. It'll be proper records.
SPEAKER_04So you said you thought she was in the army.
SPEAKER_02Well, something like that.
SPEAKER_04She wasn't in the army.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_04What what where do you think B Arthur may have found herself within the uh the armed forces?
SPEAKER_02I don't know. Are you gonna tell me something really epic? She's like a paratrooper or She wasn't a paratrooper.
SPEAKER_04She was a Marine.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_04She joined She joined the Marines in World War II as soon as they had openings for women.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, to be honest, I didn't even know there were uh female Marines at that time.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, she said at the time she was willing to get in now and do whatever is desired of me.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_04She began her military career as a typist and then went on to do another job.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_04Which I think is the most sort of B Arthur Dorothy's Bornack job there could be. Okay. She was a truck driver.
SPEAKER_02Nice, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. After her military career, she spent a year training as a medical technician. She got uh an internship for a summer and thought I'm not happy running urines.
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_04No, so she uh then she enrolled in drama training in New York. She was initially very successful in classical roles. She said of this, I was this tall lady with enormous breasts and a very deep voice. She debuted on Broadway in the Thripney Opera, and then she later played the supporting role of Vera in MAME. Are you familiar with MAME?
SPEAKER_02I think so. I think I've seen a film of MAME possibly with Rosalind Russell.
SPEAKER_04So that was so like Is that the same thing? So MAME we would call it now sort of a franchise.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_04So there was a play.
SPEAKER_02So the MAME extended universe.
SPEAKER_04The multiverse of MAME.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um it was initially, I think, a s a novel.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_04And then it became a play.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_04Called Auntie Mame. And the film with Rosalind Russell was based on the play.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_04Then came the musical, MAME.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_04And then that in turn was made into a film version, as a film version of the musical as well.
SPEAKER_02Oh, and is she in the film version?
SPEAKER_04She is in the film version.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_04Um, so she initially was in the Broadway production playing the role of Vera, that she described as she was self-centered and a drunk and almost a cartoon. Um, and she played opposite Angela Lansbury. Angela Lansbury played MAME. And the two actually became lifelong friends while they were doing MAME.
SPEAKER_01Did they?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. They were lifelong friends. And then the film version came around and cast as MAME in the film version was Lucille Ball.
SPEAKER_00Oh.
SPEAKER_04And B didn't want to do the film.
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_04Her husband was the director of both the Broadway production and the film.
SPEAKER_01Really?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And he said to her, You must do this film, you owe me.
SPEAKER_02Outrageous! Yeah. No way.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So he basically she sort of got coerced into doing the film.
SPEAKER_02I was gonna say, I must see this film, but now I'm absolutely furious.
SPEAKER_04It was not a successful film. Really? No, I mean it absolutely flopped, basically. After Mame, she was spotted by a man named Norman Lear, and he brought her on to do a guest spot on his sitcom All in the Family.
SPEAKER_02Which I have heard of.
SPEAKER_04Playing the role of Maud.
SPEAKER_02Ah, okay.
SPEAKER_04She was so successful in her episode that they almost immediately gave her a spin-off.
SPEAKER_02Oh wow, okay. I didn't I didn't realise that Maud was a spin-off. I feel like they used to do that back then.
SPEAKER_04It's like Oh, they Maud had spin-offs as well.
SPEAKER_02Spin-off of a spin-off spin-off.
SPEAKER_04And she she described it as a middle-aged Cinderella story. She sort of said, I was already quite you know, she was middle-aged, yeah. Um yeah, it was it was very successful. She said in an interview in I think it was 2001, 2002, she said, I look at this now and damn it, we were good.
SPEAKER_02I love that. I love that confidence.
SPEAKER_04She said, I'm still amazed at what I see, and I'm very proud of it.
SPEAKER_02Good for her.
SPEAKER_04And I I have watched the first season of Maud.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so tell me, because I haven't.
SPEAKER_04I for a sitcom that was made in the 70s, there is still a lot of funny stuff in there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04A lot of it, the the premise of it is that she's a liberal housewife. And sometimes she's so liberal that that sort of gets her into a bit of a pickle.
SPEAKER_02It's quite interesting, actually, considering where we are politically.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, a kind of reaction to ordinary because there was a lot of like women's lib stuff in the 70s.
SPEAKER_04Yes, there's a lot of there's a lot of women's lib in there, there's discussion about uh race and um kind of racial relationships, there's an episode that's about you know how they should discipline her grandchild for something that he's done. And there is certainly kind of a political undercurrent to everything that's to all of the episodes that I've seen so far.
SPEAKER_02Because it seems to me like she was always that's the other thing I didn't sort of say about. It seems to me like she was interested politically in causes and stuff.
SPEAKER_04So she was very committed to animal rights and she was very committed to the LGBT community which I think feeds into her kind of status as a bit of a camp icon. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_04But she has said that she was not as politically engaged as Maud was, and often a lot of people mistook her views and stances on things because of Oh, interesting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um she said, I mean, prior to my arrival as Maud, it was Donna Reed, it was September Bride, the women were first of all, they were always impeccably dressed with earrings and pearls, and the main character was always the husband. Even with I Love Lucy, she was the sorry, I've transcribed this exactly as she said it, and reading it is a bit weird. Um and even with Lucy, she was like the loose, you know, so that uh and Maud was the first time that a woman was the dominant figure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And she she absolutely is. Like in the sitcom, in the household, Maud is the one that is in charge.
SPEAKER_02That's very interesting because th sitcoms you know can get have this like reputation for being a bit sort of I don't know, safe.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And there's a lot that they kind of echo because they're quite often set in families and you know, quite domestic. They echo what's going on in the time. So it's interesting that, you know, because women are, you know, fighting for their rights at that time, that this filters through into this, and she's there helming the sitcom and being the central figure. And yeah, it's it's political in that it's tackling those things, but it's also it's got to make people laugh and connect with you know something that's real and they they recognise. So yeah, it's really it's really interesting to think that she was she was doing that. And yeah, people wanted it to be real, they sort of assumed she was the same person.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I mean there's a I don't think looking at sitcoms today's any sitcom that's kind of doing it like Maude. I think possibly it's because and I mean I don't want to get too heavy here, but the kind of the state of the world isn't really something that we wish to joke about at the moment. But it's um it's definitely a sitcom that isn't afraid to tackle things.
SPEAKER_02It's really interesting, yeah. Will we come round and need Maud again? That's the thing. It's you know, will we all go so far into being trad wives? We need we need Maud to come and break us out of it.
SPEAKER_04There's there's kind of a very famous or infamous, depending on how you want to look at it, um, two-parter in Maud. It's called Maud's Dilemma. And Maud, as a 47-year-old woman, finds herself pregnant. And the episode deals with the issue of abortion.
SPEAKER_02That's absolutely wild to think of that on American TV.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Because I think it would be quite groundbreaking over here for a sitcom to be doing that even now. And for the US, where it can get even more sort of charged, uh that is so, so groundbreaking and out there.
SPEAKER_04And what I didn't realise before I went into watching Maud is that it's episode nine in the first season.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay. Yeah, it's not buried deep in.
SPEAKER_04It's not like we've got to season four and they're going, how calf, how far can we push this? This is like straight out the gates, we're doing this.
SPEAKER_02Wow, yeah. They really wanted they wanted to tackle those issues with that then.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
unknownGosh.
SPEAKER_04And the other thing that surprised me about the episodes is that they are funny.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04They are funny. They are never mocking the issue. It's never that, but they are funny, funny episodes.
SPEAKER_02That is absolutely amazing. Because yeah, I think I think like you do get say like a sitcom over here, like Only Fools and Horses has um serious episodes like Rodney going through the divorce and Rodney and Cassandra lose a baby, and uh that so those are like tackling a serious subject, but they are fairly late on. I think early on in the series they do tackle the issue of nuclear war. Um Right. I don't remember that one, but there is there is an episode where they like build a bunker or something, they're talking about, you know, the threat of nuclear war hanging over all of them, which is quite early on, it doesn't get repeated as much as you can imagine. Um but they're sort of they're not as um I don't know, not as taboo um as that. And that yeah, it feels like they're sort of once the characters are established and we know them quite well. Uh to do that so early on is so bold. I just I feel kind of sad that I don't think we're doing stuff like that now. I don't think I don't think sitcoms are being that bold, honestly.
SPEAKER_04No, no, definitely not. I think this feeds into kind of her Cam Pycon status because she was doing groundbreaking stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Like I know that f further into the season, so episodes that I haven't reached yet, they do talk about um gay rights and the LGBT plus community. Um but To be doing something that pushes the envelope often goes hand in hand with kind of this idea of camp. Not not everything.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But No, I think so we're we' we're we're talking about her like, you know, uh it being in political in a way that she you could say she's like a queer icon because she's uh talking about issues and she's you know, positioning herself where she is uh an ally um to yeah, to like the queer community. But in terms of a camp, it's sort of it's it's we you like matching those things up with doing the very kind of the nonsense of being on the golden girls in her like pastel outfits or whatever.
SPEAKER_04But it yeah, I think it's it's taking those issues that you associate with a queer icon and making them funny and putting them in ridiculous situations.
SPEAKER_00That's very camp.
SPEAKER_04Is yeah, where it starts to get quite camp, I think.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, definitely. And I think I think also something just about her, like when you're saying about her being tall, she's got a deep voice, she kind of is an interesting character and an interesting appearance, and I think that also gives her a kind of um a role model sort of status because she's just she is a bit different to your typical kind of woman that you get on a sitcom who's the little housewife, and so straight away she kind of has a presence about her which feels very iconic.
SPEAKER_04Yes, and um like any interview that I've watched with her, she stands for no nonsense.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02This is what we like about her, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, some of the interviews, like the interviewer will ask like quite a long, sprawling question, and she will quite happily sit there and go, Yes.
SPEAKER_02I love it. I do love that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Because it's um it it's you know, no fucks given or whatever.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02She's just doing what she wants.
SPEAKER_04The general consensus seems to be that she was actually a very insecure person that hid behind this kind of tough exterior.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And it took a lot for her to let people in.
SPEAKER_02I can understand that. Like I I I think maybe the type of people that are fans of her can relate to that. Yes. In that they, you know, th especially people in the queer community might have their own insecurities because they've been different for you know, at a young age, they've it's been noticed that they're different, or something like that. So they kind of understand why her, you know, her defences are up, and it is kind of iconic to build that up so much that you are just like I don't know if diva is the right word, but just like this uh enormous presence that people are kind of afraid of.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think it can come across as diva behaviour.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I don't necessarily think that that is the intent. No, I don't think it's the right but I like I certainly I think I feel a personal affinity with her.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Because I I don't know if you agree with this. I don't really have a lot of time for nonsense.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Fair.
SPEAKER_02A certain type of nonsense all the time in the world. Yes. You know, camp nonsense.
SPEAKER_04Look at what we're doing.
SPEAKER_02We love sat in my spare room in our flesh-coloured Dorothy's Fournette outfits. We have all the time in the world for that nonsense.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_02But yeah, people who um maybe uh don't say what they mean, yeah, or are out to, you know, do something that like doesn't provides no value to us. No time for that nonsense.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, fair. Um Maud finished after six seasons.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_04Um, and then a few years later she would go on to play Dorothy's Bornack in The Golden Girls.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_04Dorothy's Bornack was written, and it's specifically said in the script, as a bee Arthur type.
SPEAKER_02Oh, really?
SPEAKER_04But she wasn't initially approached to play the role.
SPEAKER_02Oh, they wanted a type, okay.
SPEAKER_04They wanted a B Arthur type, but they didn't think to go to B Arthur.
SPEAKER_02Interesting.
SPEAKER_04There's a little bit of um slightly muddy waters about how it came to go to be. The writers and production staff maintained that she wasn't interested in doing it. And she maintains that it as it hadn't been offered to her. She said as soon as she read it, she thought it was a brilliant script and she signed on. So there's a little bit of did they offer it and she didn't want like Yeah. Yeah, um Who's Telling the Truth, yeah. Yes, and it again arguably I think became her sort of defining defining role, really.
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, it feels like it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean I think I think the Golden Girls as a show deserves its own Campicons deep dive.
SPEAKER_02Oh, absolutely, I can see that.
SPEAKER_04So I you know, I haven't really prepped a lot about the Golden Girls. I don't wanna understate its impact and its um and you know what it did for B and for all of the women that were in it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because even though I love her, actually when you watch it, you love all of them. Yes. They're so good, and as a show it means so much to people.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I definitely I can see uh it deserves it deserves a spin-off. Of a spin-off. Of a spin-off.
SPEAKER_04It was actually a Golden Girls podcast that inspired me to do this one.
SPEAKER_01Was it?
SPEAKER_04Yes, good. It's called the Golden Girls Deep Dive Podcast, and that podcast too is hosted by a gay and a woman with a great rack.
SPEAKER_01I believe that's how you sold this to me.
SPEAKER_04It's a winning combination.
SPEAKER_01That's well, that's how I got here.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So she did Golden Girls for seven years. The network wanted to carry it on, and she of all of them, it was her decision to walk away from it because she thought that they couldn't top what they'd already done. She wanted to go out on a high. Um, after The Golden Girls, she kind of went into semi-retirement, but she did put together a one-woman show. She put together the show and then she made an album of it. The album is on Spotify, it's called Be Arthur on Broadway. The idea of the show was to show all of the facets of what she could do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So it was song and storytelling and yeah, a little bit of everything.
SPEAKER_02How interesting. Yeah, I can understand after like a long run on one of those shows, you don't you don't want to keep it going until the quality drops.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And also, yeah, she probably felt there were other sides to her that weren't, you know, being acknowledged. And I can understand.
SPEAKER_04And I mean, obviously we're on a bit of a time limit. I I could I could talk for days about her career. Like I find it so interesting. Yeah. But I think it's best summed up by her when she said the only things I haven't done are rodeo and porn. Which I mean, of those two things, there's one I'd like to see her in.
SPEAKER_02I genuinely don't know which is Rodeo. Okay, okay. I did think that.
SPEAKER_04But yeah, um but I if I found there was bee alpha porn out there, I might give it a glance.
SPEAKER_02I I'm not saying I want to see it. No. I'm saying it would be hard not to click.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Oh yes, right there. No, stop.
SPEAKER_02See, when you started this episode, you're saying to me, this is the person who you have the most respect for that we've done so far. And it's also the only one that we've done an impression of her in poor.
SPEAKER_04I'd respect the performance.
SPEAKER_02Well yes.
SPEAKER_04Um, when she died, she bequeathed $300,000 to the Ali Fawney Centre, which is a New York City organisation that provides housing for homeless LGBT plus youth.
SPEAKER_02Oh, see.
SPEAKER_04And in her later years she regularly visited the centre and would sit and talk with its residence. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's so cool.
SPEAKER_04In 2017, the charity opened the Be Arthur Residence, which is an 18-bed residence in Manhattan for homeless LGBTQ plus youth.
SPEAKER_02See, that's just she's awesome.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. She um and it's you know, she endeared herself to the LGBT plus community and kind of cemented her status as a as an icon, I think.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I think what's really interesting this week is that the three episodes that we've done so far, all of the campness has kind of been tinged with a little bit of nafthness at the same time. Yes, yeah. I think the clips that we're gonna watch this week, there is no doubt in my mind that they are camp.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But there's a level to it that we possibly haven't seen so far. There's a an actual craft.
SPEAKER_02Craft Um It's interesting because I I enjoy NAF.
SPEAKER_04Yes, you do I think. Yeah, oh yeah, me too.
SPEAKER_02But all of the ones that we've done so far have been British.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Oh yes, actually, I hadn't thought about that.
SPEAKER_02And I do think as British people, we enjoy quite a lot of NAF in our camp because it I don't know, we don't like always like people to try too hard. We also like things that go a bit wrong. But I do think there's a level of performance in the US where we'll see quite often it that even in their camp they're outdoing us on skill level and uh production level. Anyway, I haven't I don't know what the clips are gonna be yet. I might take it back.
SPEAKER_04No, yes. This is the point where we move into watching the clips this week. Um I would just like to remind everybody that the clips are there, are links to all of the clips in our episode description. Um you can watch along with us. We leave a little gap for you to go and find the clip. Um, I will tell you which one it is before we go into it. Uh, or you can sit and watch them all now and just listen along, or if you fancy, just don't listen to any uh don't watch any of them. Just listen to our analysis and nonsense.
SPEAKER_02Just imagine.
SPEAKER_04Yes, this is your call to action. Um, the first clip that we are going to watch this week, I had to include, I think you've seen it before, um, but there was no way that I could not include this clip.
SPEAKER_03I'm excited.
SPEAKER_04Uh this is Be Arthur's journey into the Star Wars universe.
SPEAKER_02Excellent.
SPEAKER_04So that was Be Arthur in the Star Wars Holiday Special.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and if people don't know about the Holiday Special, um it is one of the most mocked pieces of media of all time.
SPEAKER_04Because George Lucas has definitely distanced himself.
SPEAKER_02Yes, he he wishes it would disappear, basically. Because they made it at the time of like Star Wars, you know, fever.
SPEAKER_041978. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So things have gone mad with the movie coming out, and they did what they did for lots of like, you know, things that were uh popular, is tried to do some kind of like, you know, TV thing of it, and they they made this abomination because it I think it you know it's for Christmas, but they can't reference Christmas because that doesn't exist in a galaxy far, far away. So then they have like I know in the not in this clip, but I know they have like some kind of it's Wookiee Earth Day or whatever, but they just they try to do things that you would do on a like a big Christmas special, but make them Star Wars.
SPEAKER_04And I mean I g I gather from this like a variety special as well. Exactly, yeah. Because B is working in I I believe it's supposed to be the bar that we see in the first Star Wars.
SPEAKER_02It's kicking out time at the cantina or whatever, yeah. And she's the landlady.
SPEAKER_04Yes, she is, and she's singing a song.
SPEAKER_01It's quite a sad song.
SPEAKER_04It's called Goodnight but not goodbye.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Which I mean, basically the point is get out of my pub.
SPEAKER_02Yes, it is. She's throwing them out of her pub. Yeah. But she seems really sad about it. Like, good night, friend. You know, don't shed a tear from it's only the end of the night.
SPEAKER_04She um I think I don't think this is as obviously camp as some of the stuff we've seen.
SPEAKER_02It's not the it's not the like, you know, feathers and sequins type of camp. It is the this is totally absurd type of camp.
SPEAKER_04And I think what makes it camp is that she is playing it completely straight.
SPEAKER_02A hundred percent, I agree.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02She I would love to know what the atmosphere on set was like that day. Because she is a total pro.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And she sings this like this were any other musical, and they said to her, you know, this is this is your big number as the landlady. So, you know, um just do this and say goodbye to all the customers, and you know, at this point you'll sit down and you'll sing and just you know, touch the face of the customer next to you. It just in this case, that's a giant hamster. Going Because they're all they're all dressed like they're from Star Wars.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, well, not all.
SPEAKER_02They couldn't they didn't have the budget for all of them.
SPEAKER_04Well, yeah, the budget is is not quite as up there as the films, is it?
SPEAKER_02No, some of them have just got hats on and they don't face the camera. But she's yeah, she's just like she's just singing into their faces, these like masks.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. She sings to them and then she dances with some of them.
SPEAKER_02Oh, the dancing.
SPEAKER_04And but it begins sort of quite, you know, they're in like a traditional hold, like a waltz hold.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_04And then she moves on to someone else and just does a bit of hands.
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, that was how I would phrase it. Because he um I don't know the uh the what the aliens are in Star Wars.
SPEAKER_04Um I don't think any of these are I would consider identifiable racism.
SPEAKER_02I reckon that blue guy with the fingers is.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_02I'm sure uh there's like a I'm sure there's one of them in the films. Anyway, he's got the long fingers.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And so they don't do the traditional hold, they do a kind of finger waggle at each other.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_02But which is nice, she's obviously accepting of his customs.
SPEAKER_04Well one of my big takeaways from this is it's a song about leaving the pub. Yeah, and we get to a point at which no one has left the pub.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yes. That is what it's like at kicking out time, though, isn't it? You know?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but I wonder also if it's a case of we've paid for these alien costumes. They're not leaving too soon.
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_04We need the footage.
SPEAKER_02We need every extra we can get.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Don't don't let anybody leave too early because it'll look empty.
SPEAKER_04So she rouses them into a sing-along.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Da da da da.
SPEAKER_02Sort of a sing-along.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, they don't really join in today.
SPEAKER_02Not really. Um there's one point at which I wasn't sure if they were joining in or if they were just screaming. Because I think their mics are turned right down. They're not singers, they're just guys in costumes. And it just sounds like they go in the background.
SPEAKER_04At the end of that section, we get a fade that I can only describe as a 70s fade. Like I don't, it's like a sort of soft cross cut to the point where most of them have left the bar. Yeah. The song somehow gets more serious.
SPEAKER_02Really does. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Goodbye, friend. Don't say goodnight, friend. And she's seating out the band.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And then there's big big man.
SPEAKER_02Big blue lad.
SPEAKER_04Big blue man. Comes in, she leans upon him and then pulls away like she's never gonna see him again.
SPEAKER_02And again, but not even a flicker that she's treating this as a joke.
SPEAKER_04No.
SPEAKER_02She is a hundred percent committed to it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Which I love.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, he kind of goes, Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02He doesn't get a lot of bookings. He's of a size where he's mostly doing he's in costumes a lot, you know, doing the aliens or whatever. And uh so he just lets B. Arthur sort of rest her head for a second, and then he's like, okay, I'll go. I just I I honestly what what do they think was happening here?
SPEAKER_04She's dressed in well, it's long and flowy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04There's no shape or anything to it, which I don't think you need in space.
SPEAKER_02Do you think she looks like she's in a Star Wars movie?
SPEAKER_04I think I feel like what's happened is they've gone how do we make her look like she's in a Star Wars movie?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_04But still let people know it's still Bee Arthur.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you can't do too much.
SPEAKER_04Because she's essentially got the same hairstyle as Maud.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_04Which she's possibly just Bee Arthur's hairstyle, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But they've added this sort of long ratty ponytail on it to it.
SPEAKER_02I enjoy the hair. I like the ratty ponytail. I don't think it's that ratty, I think it's er I don't know, spacey.
SPEAKER_04Well, yes, that's what I think. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I did grow up watching original Star Trek and I'm very forgiving on the special effects of the time. And um there aren't any.
SPEAKER_04No, there are no special effects in this. It's you you in the hamster hat.
SPEAKER_02You in the hamster sit in the dark because could you do a weird noise for us just to really sell that you're a you know alien space?
SPEAKER_04It's all a little bit dolphin, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02It it is a little bit, yeah, yeah. Oh, it it's sort of inexplicable, isn't it? Because when you when you want somebody to sing on a big variety Christmas special, yeah, you sort of either want it to be an incredibly impressive performance, in which case it's just them, or if in like a scene like this you want to kind of feel the moment, it's impossible to feel anything about this. Like it's kicking time out kicking out time at a pub in space, a galaxy far, far away, you know, the bell has rung and you've all got to go home. It's not that sad. Why is everyone so sad?
SPEAKER_04If they've put stakes in where there is none.
SPEAKER_02No. Is that what makes it camp?
SPEAKER_04I I feel like almost the song has been written separate to the scenario.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04They've got there on the day and gone, these two things don't really work, but we don't have time. It feels like to do anything else with it.
SPEAKER_02A lot of decisions were made by people with totally opposite intentions.
SPEAKER_04The song is almost like it should be set at a spaceport where they're saying goodbye to people.
SPEAKER_02Waving waving off the rebel alliance as they go to their possible deaths, rather than just going home from the pub.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and they've gone. We haven't got the budget for that.
SPEAKER_02Budget's not there.
SPEAKER_04No, we're gonna put it in the pub.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Well, I think we just figured out the mystery of that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04This was not Bee Arthur's only foray into television variety.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_04In 1980, she got her own special.
SPEAKER_00Oh.
SPEAKER_04The Bee Arthur Special.
SPEAKER_00Excellent.
SPEAKER_04And we're now going to watch the opening of the Bee Arthur Special. So I've got to correct myself. It is actually the Beatrice Arthur Special.
SPEAKER_02The Beatrice Arthur Special.
SPEAKER_04The Beatrice Arthur Special.
SPEAKER_02All I want in the world is for there to be specials like this again. It's all I want. It seems like they everybody had one back then.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Everybody got to have a go where you just had big song and dance numbers, loads of like special guests, sparkly costumes.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And where is it now? That's what I want. That's all I want.
SPEAKER_04Oh well, I'll see what I can do. I the first thing I want to talk about.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. There's a lot to talk about.
SPEAKER_04There's a lot to unpack. First thing I want to talk about is what she's wearing.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_04Because I don't say this often about women.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_04I think she looks fit.
SPEAKER_02All the things you were going to say, I didn't guess. But I do I do know what you mean.
SPEAKER_04You if you know B. Arthur from The Golden Girls and even and you know B. Arthur from Maud, she is dressed in long, drapey, flowy, shapeless, high-necked, floor-hitting stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04In this, she is wearing a low-cut dress with a bit of cleavage.
SPEAKER_02I ha yes, I haven't often seen cleavage.
SPEAKER_04And a big slit up the side.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_04It's shapely, it's flattering, and I am confused. A big but like she's never looked better.
SPEAKER_02I've never seen like she look she looks fantastic. Yeah. She does. It's yeah, I was surprised by how dramatic that slit is. But she's got great legs under there. And she's still on the top, she's still B Arthur. She's still what you're what you recognise. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, she's got all this body that like yes, it's hidden a lot in uh the other things. It's it it's very it's very it's a very eighties look.
SPEAKER_04It's a very eighties look, it's very sequined, it's very shoulder pads, it's camp, but you can't deny that that is a camp outfit.
SPEAKER_02In terms of camp, this was dripping with it.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_02The whole thing. Because it's the it's the opening to the special.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And she comes out in that, she looks amazing, and she introduces her her special guests for this episode.
SPEAKER_04Who are Rock Hudson?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_04Who at the time nobody knew was gay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I was gonna say he's one of the infamous closet uh Hollywood gays.
SPEAKER_04Uh Rock Hudson, Melbourne Moore, and Madam.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I d I don't know Melbourne Moore, I don't know anything.
SPEAKER_04I don't know a lot about Melbourne Moore.
SPEAKER_02Madam is that fucking puppet. Which is camp, you know, you can't deny having a puppet as a guest.
SPEAKER_04No.
SPEAKER_02Covered in feathers, it is a camp puppet. Um and I uh I just I don't like it. Every time I see it, it's so horrible.
SPEAKER_04And they they all sort of sing a bit. Yeah, they all have a little join in runs up some stairs showing her legs off and joins them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And then there's a little dance number with some banjos.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah, loads, tons of dancers. Again, these are the things I want, loads of dancers.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But the the women are doing like the traditional sort of dancing, and then they've got men with ukulele's or banjos. Banjos, yeah. Banjos.
SPEAKER_04Jumping.
SPEAKER_02Jumping.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_02Odd. Love it.
SPEAKER_04And the other thing, um, speaking of dancing, is B is giving us a lovely bit of hip wiggle. Yeah. She's giving us a shimmy.
SPEAKER_02She a definite shimmy.
SPEAKER_04She's the the tits are out and she's showing them to all.
SPEAKER_02She's enjoying it. Yeah. She's And it's one of those great um sets that they would have that isn't trying to look like anything. No. It's just like b huge like set pieces moving around and uh it's just fun. Yeah. It's really camp. Really camp. And then after this big song and dance number with all of them, I would I would argue that it's also quite camp to duet yourself.
SPEAKER_04Yes. She so she she sets it up by saying that the network came up with characters for her.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_04She shows us some of these characters, which we'll get on to in a minute, and then at the end she says, I just want to be myself. So she brings out another version of herself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Duets and harmonises with herself. She's doing it all.
SPEAKER_02It's fantastic.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But it's definitely camp.
SPEAKER_04It's definitely camp.
SPEAKER_02It's so it's so wild and out there. I think the special effects budget was probably blown by having two of her in front of the screen.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. So the characters that she chooses.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04She the first one, she makes a reference to Carol Burnett. I don't know a lot about the Carol Burnett show. I'm guessing it's a it's an identifiable figure from the Carol Burnett show.
SPEAKER_02I yeah, maybe it is. It's it's a sort of it's a cleaner kind of character, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I don't know if that's something that Carol Burnett would have done a lot of, or it's just because Carol Burnett, her show was on so long that she'd done every character. I don't know.
SPEAKER_04Possibly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04The next one is a pastiche of Dolly Parton.
SPEAKER_02Definitely.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, there's no mistaking.
SPEAKER_02She has some very identifiable features.
SPEAKER_04We're back to the breasts again, aren't we?
SPEAKER_02The breasts are giant.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like even if you're even as a pastiche of Dolly, they're still big. Egregiously big.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. The hair is big, the big blonde.
SPEAKER_02The hair's quite big. It's it's big, it's big enough for us to know it's Dolly. Those tits are so huge, I just gotta say. And she's in this pink thing, sort of looks like the Barbie movie, actually.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's a pink jumpsuit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Obviously, we would say pink jumpsuit at the same time on her camp podcast. Um yeah, it's very it's fine, it's obviously Dolly, but the the breasts really just sear into the eyes. They're like two they're like two balloons in there, they're huge. Very round.
SPEAKER_04She wears them well, I think. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I don't like seeing it, but yes.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah. And then she comes out as Cher dressed for the Met Gala. Yep. Um and starts flinging her hair around.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, she's got the sh the long share wig.
SPEAKER_04They don't they don't give a lot of airtime to that look, considering You'd like to see more of that? I she's but I think what's weird is the others, they come out, she does a couple of jokes about it, and then she sends them away. In this one, she comes out and she's like, No! And she immediately goes. So I I don't know if they were running short for time.
SPEAKER_02She's almost fully new to that share outfit. Yeah, it's it's it's the Bob Mackey um one, isn't it? And it's got you know just sequins here and there.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um there's not a lingering close-up of that.
SPEAKER_04No, but the overall taste that one takes away from this is undoubtedly camp.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yeah, but it's it's actually it's almost like a menu of camp.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02She goes, here you go. These are the other versions of camp that there are. You can have your shares, you can have your Dolly Partons, um, that's all good.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But I'm gonna give you B Arthur. Yes. Which is it's camp. It is camp. Camp on camp.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. There's it is one of those, if somebody said to me, show me what camp is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I this is one of those clips I'd be able to put on and go, Here you are. It's all there.
SPEAKER_01Here you go. Have a look at that.
SPEAKER_04Uh we're moving forward in time now to the Tony Awards.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_041987.
SPEAKER_02The year I was born. I shouldn't give that away.
SPEAKER_04Oh, well.
SPEAKER_02They might have thought I was younger.
SPEAKER_04They probably thought I was older. We're moving to the 1987 Tony Awards where she is revisiting the character Vera Charles from the musical MAME.
SPEAKER_02I'm excited. Oh I love that clip.
SPEAKER_04I I've got a question for you about that clip.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_04Do you feel like you're looking at our future? Because I do.
SPEAKER_02In my head, uh as I'm watching it, I'm thinking, could me and Nick do this? It we don't have a reason to.
SPEAKER_04I say let's find a reason.
SPEAKER_02Yes, absolutely. Oh, I loved that so much. Yes. I loved it so much.
SPEAKER_04So that was B. Arthur and Angela Lansbury performing Bozom Buddies from MAME at the 1987 Tony Awards.
SPEAKER_02Which I think w when you said Angela Lansbury, or when I saw Angela Lansbury, I immediately knew it would be Camp. The two of them together just can't fail to be Camp somehow.
SPEAKER_04No, and this is one of those clips that I was watching in Readiness. Yes. And it I was like For the podcast. Sure.
SPEAKER_02Not General Preparedness for Everyday Life.
SPEAKER_04Sure. Um I was watching it and I was like, I cannot describe this as anything other than camp.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But at the same time, it is not it is pure talent and pure class.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It's it's two women singing, and they're doing a good job. So why is it why is it so camp?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But it is.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_02And I I think I don't I don't know, like the the theoretical side of camp keeps coming up to bite us in the arse, but like there's something about how good they are, and they are like older women, and they're so in charge of themselves that they kind of just they just give it to you like here it is. Yes, just take it and see what you think of that. And they don't care if you like it, just have it. It's this it is such a beautiful like attitude that they have to performing that is so good. Plus sequins also.
SPEAKER_04Sequins, I mean B. Arthur walks onto the stage, and I mean she's pretty much literally wearing what you're wearing right now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I would say, you know, mine came from the charity shop, so um hers is probably a little better, but yes, I did I there was a slight recognition as I saw her come out. I love Angela Lansbury's dress. Oh my goodness, it's got the wide neckline. Yeah. It's OTT and they just they look great together.
SPEAKER_04The outfits don't sort of go.
SPEAKER_02They don't match.
SPEAKER_04No.
SPEAKER_02No, but I like that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Uh there's something about this song as well that is quite camp because they're sort of saying what brilliant friends they are.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Whilst throwing barbs at each other and Yeah, there are reeds in there.
SPEAKER_02It's like Yeah. Yes, it's a kind of banter that is specific, I think, to uh women engaged. I don't know, shall we say it that way? That yeah, that is very much like we are friends, but I am gonna tell you what I think of you.
SPEAKER_04Yes, which another re is another reason I think that it's us.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_04There's no other way I can do that.
SPEAKER_02No, I get it, I see it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. I think there's going back to the the sort of their older women doing things that you don't that society sort of doesn't think that older women should do.
SPEAKER_02Are you going to bring up the choreo?
SPEAKER_04Yes, I am going to bring up the choreo. But you know, they're they're hip bumping and they're sort of thrusting and shimmies and it's like they're they're sort of there's a sort of sexual aspect to that.
SPEAKER_02An in-control sexuality.
SPEAKER_04Yes, absolutely. I'm a woman in my 50s, and I'm gonna bump my bum in your face and I'm gonna show you my tits and I've said tits so many times this week.
SPEAKER_02Don't often have much reason to say it. No, I don't, no, tits. Um absolutely because if they if like when you see somebody performing at 20, yeah, quite often there's a sort of those movements are to you know uh please like a male audience.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_02This isn't meant to do that, this is for them, I would say, and if it's pleasing anyone, it's a it's a very specific male audience, but like it it is it's for them and they're in control of it, which I think is wonderful. I think that's why we kind of like why lots of people idolise them is because they've got to uh an age or they are a type of person that is in control of that.
SPEAKER_04And I what I will just add to that is that the male audience that I think would enjoy it, yes, I'm not watching the Tony Awards.
SPEAKER_02What do you think they're doing?
SPEAKER_04Probably in their sheds.
SPEAKER_02In their sheds, yes, model train set.
SPEAKER_04Sure, that's what I was gonna Yeah. That's what I thought they were doing. Um we're gonna move to another awards ceremony now. Oh, alright. And this is the American Comedy Awards. This is from 1992. And bizarrely, given that we're only on episode four, we're gonna encounter our second sea lion on team.
SPEAKER_02Does that make them the campest animal?
SPEAKER_04Well, we can discuss that, I think, once we've watched the clip. Okay, let's watch the club.
SPEAKER_02Here we go. So even though you told me there was going to be a sea lion, nothing could have prepared me for that clip.
unknownNothing.
SPEAKER_04That sea lion. We've we've never really addressed how we know each other on the podcast.
SPEAKER_01We haven't, have we?
SPEAKER_04Um but we're husband and wife.
SPEAKER_01Um Imagine.
SPEAKER_04Imagine all those people going, oh that poor woman she doesn't know. Um so we basically met studying comedy at university, and I would put out there into the universe that that sea line has better comic timing than some of the people that we work with.
SPEAKER_02Harsh but fair.
SPEAKER_04So it's comic timing is impeccable. I know. So basically, Bee Arthur is presenting at the American Comedy Awards.
SPEAKER_02Which I've never heard of.
SPEAKER_04No, neither have I. I don't know they exist anymore.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_04And she comes out and she says, the producers have promised me it's going to be very dignified and short for me this year.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_04After which on cue, outcomes a sea lion.
SPEAKER_02Now you say outcomes. Okay. A sea lion is very big. Yeah. It's a very big animal. It slides across the stage into position next to B. Arthur.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Where usually you would have a uh a co-host just slides into its position. Very natural. But it's frankly astonishing sight to see uh next to this giant animal.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I yeah.
SPEAKER_04And then they go into what I assume is a pre-rehearsed routine.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, are they doing a double act?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Quite an impressive double act. Where the seal does everything perfectly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04To the point where, like, you can teach a seal Sea lion. A sea lion, sorry, they are different. You can you can train a sea lion, right?
SPEAKER_02Well so you say that.
SPEAKER_04You can but you can assume you can train it to do stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Like jump through this hoop or blah blah blah. I hazard a guess that you cannot teach a sea lion comic timing like that. That sea lion is a natural.
SPEAKER_02I have to be honest, right. You don't see this sort of stuff on TV anymore. No, because it's quite cruel.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_02And the things that they make this sea lion do, I don't know how they managed to get those into its head. It was born with a gift, I'm telling you. It's uh it laughs at her.
SPEAKER_04It laughs at her, it smiles, it covers its face, it claps at one point.
SPEAKER_02The clapping I could understand, the clapping I expected.
SPEAKER_04And the clapping is the point at which I say to you, yes, the sea lion is the campest animal.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Well, it yes, it is, it's very camp. The little clap is it sticks its tongue out at her.
SPEAKER_04Yes. It can do it all. And it goes toe-to-toe with her. At no point do you feel like if anything, the sea lion's in control.
SPEAKER_02She's playing second fiddle to the sea lion.
SPEAKER_04Yes, she is. She's the straight man to a sea lion.
SPEAKER_02Now, this is camp, but this is an unexpected version of camp. Yes. Because if you say, Oh, I want something to be camp, you can think of like sequins and feathers and you know, lots of bright colours, or tap dancers. You can think of those things as camp. You would never think of a sea lion.
SPEAKER_04No.
SPEAKER_02And yet.
unknownAnd yet.
SPEAKER_04It's the I think the campness in this is the unexpectedness.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_04And that it's so perfectly pitched. It's so good. Why is it so good? It shouldn't be. I know. Like I sort of still work within the realms of comedy. I'll never be as good as that sea lion. Is that how you feel watching it? Yes.
SPEAKER_02You know, it's just a a little man off stage going, do this now. You know that, right?
SPEAKER_04How? We can't we can't hear him? Is the sea line wearing an earpiece? Like this is rehearsed. Oh god.
SPEAKER_02This is this is I don't think they even have ears. Intricate rehearsed stuff. It is incredibly good and it shouldn't be this good.
SPEAKER_04Maybe I'd be that good if someone offered me a fish at the end.
SPEAKER_02Maybe. Do you perform for fish?
SPEAKER_04No.
SPEAKER_02Have you?
SPEAKER_04I perform for money.
SPEAKER_02Fair. Yeah. That's fair enough. It is incredibly good and it shouldn't be this good and it's very, very odd. Yeah. I loved that though.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. We I couldn't let this podcast go past without a Golden Girls clip.
SPEAKER_02Thank goodness.
SPEAKER_04And I know quite a lot about the Golden Girls, and I found myself stumped. I thought, what what do I pick?
SPEAKER_00How can you narrow it down?
SPEAKER_04And I narrowed it down to two and I didn't know which one to go with. And then I found out that one of the two that I had picked was from Be Arthur's favourite episode of the Golden Girls.
SPEAKER_00Alright.
SPEAKER_04And so I had to go with that one.
SPEAKER_00Fair enough.
SPEAKER_04I had to. So this is Be Arthur in the episode An Illegitimate Concern from the Golden Girls. So not for the first time this week. We've got B. Arthur dressed as Cher. Yes. This time she's joined by Estel Getty dressed as Sunny.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_04With quite a substantial height difference.
SPEAKER_02I think she looks fantastic as Sonny.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_02Which is really strange. So she's supposed to be in the show Dorothy, so B. Arthur's mother. Yes. The character's mother.
SPEAKER_04Um and in this episode they are entering into a mother daughter pageant.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_04An old people's home. And they're putting together their talent. And they decide to
SPEAKER_02And uh Rose is uh playing so that's Betty White's character, is playing the piano for them. Yes. And there's a great joke just with the piano when um Dorothy walks out dressed as Cher and she just does a very long look and keeps playing the piano, but just it just they this is one of the great things about the Golden Girls is once you know the characters, just a look can sell you on a laugh. It's so much fun.
SPEAKER_04The the look she gives her tells me she has a hundred things to say and daren't say any of them, basically. Um dear. So she comes out, she's dressed to share, and I would say more so than our previous Be Arthur's chair. That's a weird sentence.
SPEAKER_02That's very weird it is.
SPEAKER_04Um she's really committing to the bit.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_04She's got the sort of the tongue movements, she's she's brushing the hair away.
SPEAKER_02She's doing the hair.
SPEAKER_04And nothing is gonna break her.
SPEAKER_02No, no. Well she because she we know she has a great voice.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So she sings a bit of that song. She's she's doing a great job.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh it it is just comical to see her as Cher because it's such a different look.
SPEAKER_04Yes, and the the especially in the Golden Girls because they put her in all of these high-collar clothes and blouses and turtlenecks and ties, perhaps.
SPEAKER_02Um despite dressing up, we haven't spoken that much about the fashion um of the Golden Girls, but No, oh that's a podcast in itself. It is a podcast in itself, but yeah, there's definitely a look that Dorothy has.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_02And all of them have their individual looks. So for her to be such a departure is it it's funny straight away.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Even without a little um mum there dressed as Sonny, which is just good.
SPEAKER_04The height difference adds to it.
SPEAKER_02It's so fun.
SPEAKER_04The thing is, is I always, always thought of B as like a very tall woman. And when I say tall, I mean like sort of 5'11.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04She's actually only 5'9.
SPEAKER_02When I had well, you said earlier that she was 5'9, and I was like, Imagine it just seems like she's towering over people and she's like a couple of inches bigger than average.
SPEAKER_04The golden girl, she would always wear flats.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yes because so you look at that.
SPEAKER_02She wouldn't be in frame with the others if she wasn't.
SPEAKER_04But you think how small was this Delgeti?
SPEAKER_02She's a tiny little lady.
SPEAKER_04Because that sort of height difference, I don't I don't there's something about that visual that is camp.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_04It's sort of they're kind of polar, they're polar opposites.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And they're making it work somehow.
SPEAKER_02And the fact that she's supposed to be her mother, I don't know what the age difference is, but it's not realistic, I assume.
SPEAKER_04So in real life, B. Arthur is a year older than Estelle Getty.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Who's playing her mother.
SPEAKER_02I was almost gonna say I assume B. Arthur's older, but yeah, there's like there's something funny about trying to sell us these two as uh mother and daughter. Yeah. Because they're just two different. It's it Yeah. It's just hilarious.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. The other thing I like about this clip is that in we have the Sonny and Cher moment, and then we have a little bit of a joke that I think sort of encompasses a lot of Dorothy's character.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Where Rose tells them that something dreadful has happened back in St Olaf. And uh Dorothy says, What is it? War, poverty, famine, and then Rose says, opposite sides of the street parking. And you get this this classic Be Arthur Dorothy response to Rose, where again it's just a look. Yes. It's the sort of look. I you're not gonna know what I've just done.
SPEAKER_02They can't see that, but they can imagine it if they've seen the Golden Girls.
SPEAKER_04If you've seen the Golden Girl, and it's in that clip as well, so I think that's the thing.
SPEAKER_02It there are times in the Golden Girls where Be Arthur just the thought of how her character is gonna react is enough. Because you know all those characters so well and they're so uh the chemistry is so good that just the idea of her hearing something, you're already laughing at what she's going to say, and the looks are part of that. She can sell all uh so many jokes are just her looking.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and it like it's just the measure of her talent that she can do so much with so little absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_02She's so wonderful in that role, and they're all good, and the chemistry is absolutely perfect. Yes. I think that's why it works so well, and did you know, for so many seasons the like quality doesn't really drop.
SPEAKER_04No, not at all. No. So what do you think B.A.'s legacy is?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think I think she will always be associated with that role of Dorothy, but I also think there's yeah, a real kind of like ally status. Uh her like work with people and this centre that you said has got her name now. I think that will really live on as well. That's yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um it's kind of uh it's great when somebody is really beloved by uh like the queer community, but also uh, you know, feeds that back by actually doing stuff for them. And it isn't just that everybody loves her and they make you know jokes about her and she makes them laugh whatever. It's also that she's feeding back and you know, she's sitting there and like you said, meeting the homeless youth and all all these sorts of things that she wants to do. Um I think that's really a great side to have to an icon, you know?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and also does it not for publicity.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, just a genuine kind of yeah.
SPEAKER_04A genuine interest.
SPEAKER_02Mmm. I think that's a really wonderful legacy for her to have.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I think the the funny is also part of her legacy. I know that when I first discovered the Golden Girls, uh there was a lot I took from them in terms of performance and things that they did and things. And it like it's true of all four of them, but I think especially because I somewhat identify as a Dorothy and I just I just felt this natural draw to be Arthur. I don't I can't explain it. I just wanted to know more about her. But there are you know, she was someone at the top of her game. She knew how to rinse every bit of comedy out of something.
SPEAKER_02She's so good. That's that's the thing. Yeah, you know, she does she's uh been on Broadway, she does singing, she does all she does everything and yeah, in terms of her comic timing, she's so good. And do like she's within this group in the Golden Girls of people who are incredibly talented, and it's wonderful just to watch her do her thing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02We l we love her so much, don't we?
SPEAKER_04It's yeah.
SPEAKER_02We already knew we thought she was an icon.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but I mean there's no objectivity this week. No, no, no, but I think there needs to be.
SPEAKER_00No, no, don't care for it. Woo!
SPEAKER_04So that was the B Arthur episode of Camp Icons. You can follow us on Instagram at Camp Icons Podcast. That's at Camp Icons Podcast. Um, and I I've not mentioned before, but you can uh see what we're wearing on the Instagram. That uh that should be reason enough to give us a follow because it's just getting more and more out of hand. We also have a Facebook page. Is it on there as well? Yes, yeah, absolutely. Uh whether anyone is looking at it or not, I've got no idea. And also, this week, the first week, I am mentioning our TikTok. We I I still don't really know how it works.
SPEAKER_01On the Tiki Tock, are you still? On the Get on them TikToks.
SPEAKER_04And we again are at Camp Icons Podcast. Next week, next time on the Camp Icons Podcast, we are looking at Mz Earth a Kit.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_04I think you'll find it's Wow. Oh, lovely. There'll be a lot more of that next week. Goodbye for now.