Bea Arthur

This week we’re looking at Beatrice Arthur, a pioneering presence in the American Sitcom, Tony award winning Broadway star and all round camp and queer ally. Watch along with her journey into the Star Wars Universe, her bold and brassy variety special and her unforgettable role in The Golden Girls!

Watch along with with our video section at the link below!

The Stars Wars Holiday Special - https://youtu.be/D6K6ETASu1E?si=zaFNK_KWDXRhL-Ft 

The Beatrice Arthur Special - https://youtu.be/jY8l4M5TWtU?si=VUfqMR-TCIskDH7U 

‘Bosom Buddies’ at the Tony Awards - https://youtu.be/MHzAYoKtgbw?si=jVnAw3uKnOHz3OU2 

Bea at The American Comedy Awards…. with a seal. - https://youtu.be/6fL2rStFnc8?si=M--W_jDA1hu4C2w_ 

Dorothy and Sophia do Sonny and Cher - https://youtu.be/g3JLu-Y13mY?si=lTJrrArERgW018Ko 

We are indebted to those who have originally uploaded these videos, this podcast wouldn't be possible without them!

Follow us on social media for more nonsense:

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:01

Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of Camp Icons. I'm Nick.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

And I'm Liz.

SPEAKER_04 0:08

Hello, Liz. How are you this week?

SPEAKER_02 0:10

I'm very well, thank you.

SPEAKER_04 0:11

You're good. I've had my first Camp Icons dream this week. Have you? Yes, I have. I would love to know about that. Um so it was New Year's Eve in the dream, and I was sat in a large hall.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 0:25

And I and I was watching Sue Pollard sing Everybody Wants to be a Cat from Cats. And as the song progressed, we could see on screens that they'd started the countdown for New Year's. Um, and so everybody that was watching her was going, Sue, so you need to stop. Sue, so you've got to stop, it's the countdown. She just wouldn't stop.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

Oh, well, that is Sue all over, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 0:53

Well it is. That's that's my campike on stream for you.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

Oh, well, if you want more of that, Sue, go back and watch the last episode.

SPEAKER_04 1:02

You can't watch it. Oh, listen. You can listen.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Listen and dream. Dream what it looked like.

SPEAKER_04 1:09

Um this week we are doing someone that I have a massive soft spot for.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

I'm very excited as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:18

We are doing the icon the legend Be Arthur.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

It's very exciting.

SPEAKER_04 1:42

Arthur was star of The Golden Girls. That's probably I think what she's most known for.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

I have to say, I think that's my main reference for her, even though I'm aware that she's done other things.

SPEAKER_04 1:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

That's that's the thing that I've seen her in, and you know, it's absolutely an amazing show. So I've watched it more than once, and yeah, that's my main reference point for her.

SPEAKER_04 2:05

I've yeah, I've watched it more times than I should probably admit to, to be honest.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

I was gonna say, I I know that I haven't watched it as many times as you.

SPEAKER_04 2:16

We um we've got into this little habit um of of dressing sort of on theme for the subject that we're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Yes, and again, we don't record this.

SPEAKER_04 2:30

No, it's just audio. We we can just see each other.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

Um I just feel it's important for me to get into the right mindset of whoever we are talking about.

SPEAKER_04 2:46

My goodness, haven't you? This week so across from me in the table is a vision in flesh-coloured sequence.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 3:00

Yeah, yeah. Um, with a white tie added, uh, which was quite um quite Dorothy, uh Dorothy's Bornack is B. Arthur's character in The Golden Girls, and she quite often had a man's tie.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

There's a there's a sort of male reference to some of her outfits. Yes. The one I was specifically thinking of, which is one of my favourite outfits ever, of anything, is she wears a green sequin uh like suit with a bow tie.

SPEAKER_04 3:32

Yeah, I know the one.

SPEAKER_02 3:33

Which is sort of equal parts horrific and amazing. Um which I enjoy very much. So yeah, there's quite kind of a male reference. So I've done like a I've done a white tie over a shirt that doesn't need a tie.

SPEAKER_04 3:46

Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

And then I've got sort of wicker coloured earrings.

SPEAKER_04 3:51

Um some chunky beads as well.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

Have I? Yes, I have got chunky beads. Yes, because there's it was a bead era. There's always she probably wouldn't do tie and beads, but you know, what are we doing here? Well why can't I?

SPEAKER_04 4:06

I so I found it slightly more difficult from my own wardrobe to dress as B Arthur.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

Yes. However, somehow you managed.

SPEAKER_04 4:16

Well, what happened is I went to a charity shop, and what I was actually looking for was like a big sort of long chunky cardigan.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Right, of course.

SPEAKER_04 4:23

And I went over to where I thought the chunky cardigans were gonna be, and on a hanger was this sort of delightful uh well, it's an 80s blouse, isn't it? Really?

SPEAKER_01 4:35

Yes, it's again sort of flesh coloured, like a beigey flesh.

SPEAKER_04 4:39

It's it's not from the menswear department. No, no. To the point To the point that when I took it to the counter in the charity in the charity shop, the little old lady behind the desk put it through and she said, Oh, is is this a lovely gift for someone?

SPEAKER_01 5:04

What did you say? What did you say?

SPEAKER_04 5:08

I didn't say yes and I didn't say no. I looked that woman dead in the eye and said, I work in theatre quickly followed up by it's it's a costume. It's I'm I'm buying it for a show I'm developing. To which she said, no. Oh, where are you performing the show? Good question, madam. She's on to you. And I said, It's a piece I'm developing for the Edinburgh fringe. But I had the option of either saying that or saying I'm dressing up as an 80s sitcom character for an audio podcast. And I felt like lying about an Edinburgh show was the better pathway to take.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Absolutely the same thing I would have done. Yes. No.

SPEAKER_04 6:25

Um And I have paired it, I should say, with um a roll neck. Dorothy did like the roll necks.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

She did, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:33

Yeah, right up. It's a nice I don't know if it's nice actually.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Right up.

SPEAKER_04 6:37

Right up. It's a red roll neck with a with a flesh blouse. Flesh coloured blouse. We're not becoming a true crime podcast.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

No, no.

SPEAKER_04 6:48

No.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

Not this week.

SPEAKER_04 6:50

No. Um that's probably a bit enough about us, really.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Yes. Yes. Well, I think what we've done there is we've proven we like the golden girls. If in a slightly odd way. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 7:03

Well I think we've done there is prove that we're both insane.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 7:08

Um so tell me what you know about Beatha.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Well, I I know that she was on another sitcom before the Golden Girls. Yes, um, which I think is called Maud.

SPEAKER_04 7:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

And I haven't seen that. Um I haven't seen it, but I'm aware that, you know, she was in she was very famous, you know, on TV in the US for a long time. And I I sort of have a memory that she also might have been in the army at some point. I don't know if I'm making that up, but I'm hoping you're gonna tell me. But she always seems I don't know, I have this idea that she had a very cool life before, you know, she was on stage. So I I'm I'm waiting with bated breath for you to tell me the actual details.

SPEAKER_04 8:00

Okay, so uh Beatrice Arthur is not her actual name.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 8:06

She was born Bernice Frankel.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

Yeah, I'd change that.

SPEAKER_04 8:12

Um she always preferred being called B.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 8:17

Because at the time there were a lot of boys called Burnice. Which was spelled B-U-R-N-I-C-E.

SPEAKER_02 8:28

A lot.

SPEAKER_04 8:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

There were a lot of boys because I've never heard Burnice.

SPEAKER_04 8:32

No, I've never heard that either.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

No, right.

SPEAKER_04 8:34

There were a lot of cool boys called Burnace. And because of her height, yeah, she kind of she was masculinized, I think.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

I can see that.

SPEAKER_04 8:46

She she said she's she was five foot nine and she said she hasn't grown since since she was twelve. Wow, so she was tall from a yeah, tall from a very early age. Now, normally I like to take these facts from people's own words. But B lied in later life about having a military career.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

She lied!

SPEAKER_04 9:12

She lied. She um there's an interview with her and somebody says, Did you do this? and she said, Oh god, no. Um and the only reason we know about it is because of the release of military records.

SPEAKER_02 9:26

Right, yes, of course. It'll be proper records.

SPEAKER_04 9:29

So you said you thought she was in the army.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

Well, something like that.

SPEAKER_04 9:33

She wasn't in the army.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 9:36

What what where do you think B Arthur may have found herself within the uh the armed forces?

SPEAKER_02 9:44

I don't know. Are you gonna tell me something really epic? She's like a paratrooper or She wasn't a paratrooper.

SPEAKER_04 9:51

She was a Marine.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 9:55

She joined She joined the Marines in World War II as soon as they had openings for women.

SPEAKER_02 10:03

Yeah, to be honest, I didn't even know there were uh female Marines at that time.

SPEAKER_04 10:07

Yeah, she said at the time she was willing to get in now and do whatever is desired of me.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 10:14

She began her military career as a typist and then went on to do another job.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Right.

SPEAKER_04 10:21

Which I think is the most sort of B Arthur Dorothy's Bornack job there could be. Okay. She was a truck driver.

SPEAKER_02 10:32

Nice, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:33

Yeah. After her military career, she spent a year training as a medical technician. She got uh an internship for a summer and thought I'm not happy running urines.

unknown 10:46

No.

SPEAKER_04 10:47

No, so she uh then she enrolled in drama training in New York. She was initially very successful in classical roles. She said of this, I was this tall lady with enormous breasts and a very deep voice. She debuted on Broadway in the Thripney Opera, and then she later played the supporting role of Vera in MAME. Are you familiar with MAME?

SPEAKER_02 11:15

I think so. I think I've seen a film of MAME possibly with Rosalind Russell.

SPEAKER_04 11:23

So that was so like Is that the same thing? So MAME we would call it now sort of a franchise.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 11:32

So there was a play.

SPEAKER_02 11:32

So the MAME extended universe.

SPEAKER_04 11:36

The multiverse of MAME.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:39

Um it was initially, I think, a s a novel.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 11:44

And then it became a play.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 11:46

Called Auntie Mame. And the film with Rosalind Russell was based on the play.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 11:53

Then came the musical, MAME.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 11:56

And then that in turn was made into a film version, as a film version of the musical as well.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

Oh, and is she in the film version?

SPEAKER_04 12:04

She is in the film version.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

Right.

SPEAKER_04 12:06

Um, so she initially was in the Broadway production playing the role of Vera, that she described as she was self-centered and a drunk and almost a cartoon. Um, and she played opposite Angela Lansbury. Angela Lansbury played MAME. And the two actually became lifelong friends while they were doing MAME.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Did they?

SPEAKER_04 12:29

Yeah. They were lifelong friends. And then the film version came around and cast as MAME in the film version was Lucille Ball.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Oh.

SPEAKER_04 12:42

And B didn't want to do the film.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

No.

SPEAKER_04 12:46

Her husband was the director of both the Broadway production and the film.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Really?

SPEAKER_04 12:52

Yeah. And he said to her, You must do this film, you owe me.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

Outrageous! Yeah. No way.

SPEAKER_04 13:02

Yeah. So he basically she sort of got coerced into doing the film.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

I was gonna say, I must see this film, but now I'm absolutely furious.

SPEAKER_04 13:14

It was not a successful film. Really? No, I mean it absolutely flopped, basically. After Mame, she was spotted by a man named Norman Lear, and he brought her on to do a guest spot on his sitcom All in the Family.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

Which I have heard of.

SPEAKER_04 13:33

Playing the role of Maud.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_04 13:38

She was so successful in her episode that they almost immediately gave her a spin-off.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Oh wow, okay. I didn't I didn't realise that Maud was a spin-off. I feel like they used to do that back then.

SPEAKER_04 13:49

It's like Oh, they Maud had spin-offs as well.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Spin-off of a spin-off spin-off.

SPEAKER_04 13:55

And she she described it as a middle-aged Cinderella story. She sort of said, I was already quite you know, she was middle-aged, yeah. Um yeah, it was it was very successful. She said in an interview in I think it was 2001, 2002, she said, I look at this now and damn it, we were good.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

I love that. I love that confidence.

SPEAKER_04 14:24

She said, I'm still amazed at what I see, and I'm very proud of it.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

Good for her.

SPEAKER_04 14:28

And I I have watched the first season of Maud.

SPEAKER_02 14:30

Okay, so tell me, because I haven't.

SPEAKER_04 14:33

I for a sitcom that was made in the 70s, there is still a lot of funny stuff in there.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:40

A lot of it, the the premise of it is that she's a liberal housewife. And sometimes she's so liberal that that sort of gets her into a bit of a pickle.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

It's quite interesting, actually, considering where we are politically.

SPEAKER_04 14:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Um yeah, a kind of reaction to ordinary because there was a lot of like women's lib stuff in the 70s.

SPEAKER_04 15:07

Yes, there's a lot of there's a lot of women's lib in there, there's discussion about uh race and um kind of racial relationships, there's an episode that's about you know how they should discipline her grandchild for something that he's done. And there is certainly kind of a political undercurrent to everything that's to all of the episodes that I've seen so far.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

Because it seems to me like she was always that's the other thing I didn't sort of say about. It seems to me like she was interested politically in causes and stuff.

SPEAKER_04 15:44

So she was very committed to animal rights and she was very committed to the LGBT community which I think feeds into her kind of status as a bit of a camp icon. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 16:01

But she has said that she was not as politically engaged as Maud was, and often a lot of people mistook her views and stances on things because of Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:15

Um she said, I mean, prior to my arrival as Maud, it was Donna Reed, it was September Bride, the women were first of all, they were always impeccably dressed with earrings and pearls, and the main character was always the husband. Even with I Love Lucy, she was the sorry, I've transcribed this exactly as she said it, and reading it is a bit weird. Um and even with Lucy, she was like the loose, you know, so that uh and Maud was the first time that a woman was the dominant figure.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:48

And she she absolutely is. Like in the sitcom, in the household, Maud is the one that is in charge.

SPEAKER_02 16:56

That's very interesting because th sitcoms you know can get have this like reputation for being a bit sort of I don't know, safe.

SPEAKER_04 17:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

And there's a lot that they kind of echo because they're quite often set in families and you know, quite domestic. They echo what's going on in the time. So it's interesting that, you know, because women are, you know, fighting for their rights at that time, that this filters through into this, and she's there helming the sitcom and being the central figure. And yeah, it's it's political in that it's tackling those things, but it's also it's got to make people laugh and connect with you know something that's real and they they recognise. So yeah, it's really it's really interesting to think that she was she was doing that. And yeah, people wanted it to be real, they sort of assumed she was the same person.

SPEAKER_04 17:58

Yeah, and I mean there's a I don't think looking at sitcoms today's any sitcom that's kind of doing it like Maude. I think possibly it's because and I mean I don't want to get too heavy here, but the kind of the state of the world isn't really something that we wish to joke about at the moment. But it's um it's definitely a sitcom that isn't afraid to tackle things.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

It's really interesting, yeah. Will we come round and need Maud again? That's the thing. It's you know, will we all go so far into being trad wives? We need we need Maud to come and break us out of it.

SPEAKER_04 18:44

There's there's kind of a very famous or infamous, depending on how you want to look at it, um, two-parter in Maud. It's called Maud's Dilemma. And Maud, as a 47-year-old woman, finds herself pregnant. And the episode deals with the issue of abortion.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

That's absolutely wild to think of that on American TV.

SPEAKER_04 19:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

Because I think it would be quite groundbreaking over here for a sitcom to be doing that even now. And for the US, where it can get even more sort of charged, uh that is so, so groundbreaking and out there.

SPEAKER_04 19:28

And what I didn't realise before I went into watching Maud is that it's episode nine in the first season.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

Oh, okay. Yeah, it's not buried deep in.

SPEAKER_04 19:39

It's not like we've got to season four and they're going, how calf, how far can we push this? This is like straight out the gates, we're doing this.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Wow, yeah. They really wanted they wanted to tackle those issues with that then.

SPEAKER_04 19:55

Yeah.

unknown 19:56

Gosh.

SPEAKER_04 19:57

And the other thing that surprised me about the episodes is that they are funny.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:05

They are funny. They are never mocking the issue. It's never that, but they are funny, funny episodes.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

That is absolutely amazing. Because yeah, I think I think like you do get say like a sitcom over here, like Only Fools and Horses has um serious episodes like Rodney going through the divorce and Rodney and Cassandra lose a baby, and uh that so those are like tackling a serious subject, but they are fairly late on. I think early on in the series they do tackle the issue of nuclear war. Um Right. I don't remember that one, but there is there is an episode where they like build a bunker or something, they're talking about, you know, the threat of nuclear war hanging over all of them, which is quite early on, it doesn't get repeated as much as you can imagine. Um but they're sort of they're not as um I don't know, not as taboo um as that. And that yeah, it feels like they're sort of once the characters are established and we know them quite well. Uh to do that so early on is so bold. I just I feel kind of sad that I don't think we're doing stuff like that now. I don't think I don't think sitcoms are being that bold, honestly.

SPEAKER_04 21:30

No, no, definitely not. I think this feeds into kind of her Cam Pycon status because she was doing groundbreaking stuff.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:41

Like I know that f further into the season, so episodes that I haven't reached yet, they do talk about um gay rights and the LGBT plus community. Um but To be doing something that pushes the envelope often goes hand in hand with kind of this idea of camp. Not not everything.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

Yeah. But No, I think so we're we' we're we're talking about her like, you know, uh it being in political in a way that she you could say she's like a queer icon because she's uh talking about issues and she's you know, positioning herself where she is uh an ally um to yeah, to like the queer community. But in terms of a camp, it's sort of it's it's we you like matching those things up with doing the very kind of the nonsense of being on the golden girls in her like pastel outfits or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 22:56

But it yeah, I think it's it's taking those issues that you associate with a queer icon and making them funny and putting them in ridiculous situations.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

That's very camp.

SPEAKER_04 23:10

Is yeah, where it starts to get quite camp, I think.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

Yeah, definitely. And I think I think also something just about her, like when you're saying about her being tall, she's got a deep voice, she kind of is an interesting character and an interesting appearance, and I think that also gives her a kind of um a role model sort of status because she's just she is a bit different to your typical kind of woman that you get on a sitcom who's the little housewife, and so straight away she kind of has a presence about her which feels very iconic.

SPEAKER_04 23:47

Yes, and um like any interview that I've watched with her, she stands for no nonsense.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

This is what we like about her, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 23:58

Yeah, some of the interviews, like the interviewer will ask like quite a long, sprawling question, and she will quite happily sit there and go, Yes.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

I love it. I do love that.

SPEAKER_04 24:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:12

Because it's um it it's you know, no fucks given or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 24:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:17

She's just doing what she wants.

SPEAKER_04 24:19

The general consensus seems to be that she was actually a very insecure person that hid behind this kind of tough exterior.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:30

And it took a lot for her to let people in.

SPEAKER_02 24:33

I can understand that. Like I I I think maybe the type of people that are fans of her can relate to that. Yes. In that they, you know, th especially people in the queer community might have their own insecurities because they've been different for you know, at a young age, they've it's been noticed that they're different, or something like that. So they kind of understand why her, you know, her defences are up, and it is kind of iconic to build that up so much that you are just like I don't know if diva is the right word, but just like this uh enormous presence that people are kind of afraid of.

SPEAKER_04 25:14

Yeah, I think it can come across as diva behaviour.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:19

I don't necessarily think that that is the intent. No, I don't think it's the right but I like I certainly I think I feel a personal affinity with her.

SPEAKER_00 25:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:29

Because I I don't know if you agree with this. I don't really have a lot of time for nonsense.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:40

Fair.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

A certain type of nonsense all the time in the world. Yes. You know, camp nonsense.

SPEAKER_04 25:46

Look at what we're doing.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

We love sat in my spare room in our flesh-coloured Dorothy's Fournette outfits. We have all the time in the world for that nonsense.

SPEAKER_03 25:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

But yeah, people who um maybe uh don't say what they mean, yeah, or are out to, you know, do something that like doesn't provides no value to us. No time for that nonsense.

SPEAKER_04 26:13

Yeah, fair. Um Maud finished after six seasons.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 26:19

Um, and then a few years later she would go on to play Dorothy's Bornack in The Golden Girls.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 26:27

Dorothy's Bornack was written, and it's specifically said in the script, as a bee Arthur type.

SPEAKER_02 26:35

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_04 26:36

But she wasn't initially approached to play the role.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

Oh, they wanted a type, okay.

SPEAKER_04 26:41

They wanted a B Arthur type, but they didn't think to go to B Arthur.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 26:47

There's a little bit of um slightly muddy waters about how it came to go to be. The writers and production staff maintained that she wasn't interested in doing it. And she maintains that it as it hadn't been offered to her. She said as soon as she read it, she thought it was a brilliant script and she signed on. So there's a little bit of did they offer it and she didn't want like Yeah. Yeah, um Who's Telling the Truth, yeah. Yes, and it again arguably I think became her sort of defining defining role, really.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

Uh yeah, it feels like it.

SPEAKER_04 27:30

Yeah, I mean I think I think the Golden Girls as a show deserves its own Campicons deep dive.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

Oh, absolutely, I can see that.

SPEAKER_04 27:41

So I you know, I haven't really prepped a lot about the Golden Girls. I don't wanna understate its impact and its um and you know what it did for B and for all of the women that were in it.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

Yeah, because even though I love her, actually when you watch it, you love all of them. Yes. They're so good, and as a show it means so much to people.

SPEAKER_04 28:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

I definitely I can see uh it deserves it deserves a spin-off. Of a spin-off. Of a spin-off.

SPEAKER_04 28:13

It was actually a Golden Girls podcast that inspired me to do this one.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Was it?

SPEAKER_04 28:18

Yes, good. It's called the Golden Girls Deep Dive Podcast, and that podcast too is hosted by a gay and a woman with a great rack.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

I believe that's how you sold this to me.

SPEAKER_04 28:33

It's a winning combination.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

That's well, that's how I got here.

SPEAKER_04 28:36

Yeah. So she did Golden Girls for seven years. The network wanted to carry it on, and she of all of them, it was her decision to walk away from it because she thought that they couldn't top what they'd already done. She wanted to go out on a high. Um, after The Golden Girls, she kind of went into semi-retirement, but she did put together a one-woman show. She put together the show and then she made an album of it. The album is on Spotify, it's called Be Arthur on Broadway. The idea of the show was to show all of the facets of what she could do.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:14

So it was song and storytelling and yeah, a little bit of everything.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

How interesting. Yeah, I can understand after like a long run on one of those shows, you don't you don't want to keep it going until the quality drops.

SPEAKER_04 29:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

And also, yeah, she probably felt there were other sides to her that weren't, you know, being acknowledged. And I can understand.

SPEAKER_04 29:39

And I mean, obviously we're on a bit of a time limit. I I could I could talk for days about her career. Like I find it so interesting. Yeah. But I think it's best summed up by her when she said the only things I haven't done are rodeo and porn. Which I mean, of those two things, there's one I'd like to see her in.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

I genuinely don't know which is Rodeo. Okay, okay. I did think that.

SPEAKER_04 30:14

But yeah, um but I if I found there was bee alpha porn out there, I might give it a glance.

SPEAKER_02 30:22

I I'm not saying I want to see it. No. I'm saying it would be hard not to click.

SPEAKER_04 30:29

Yes. Oh yes, right there. No, stop.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

See, when you started this episode, you're saying to me, this is the person who you have the most respect for that we've done so far. And it's also the only one that we've done an impression of her in poor.

SPEAKER_04 30:56

I'd respect the performance.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

Well yes.

SPEAKER_04 31:01

Um, when she died, she bequeathed $300,000 to the Ali Fawney Centre, which is a New York City organisation that provides housing for homeless LGBT plus youth.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

Oh, see.

SPEAKER_04 31:15

And in her later years she regularly visited the centre and would sit and talk with its residence. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:22

That's so cool.

SPEAKER_04 31:23

In 2017, the charity opened the Be Arthur Residence, which is an 18-bed residence in Manhattan for homeless LGBTQ plus youth.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

See, that's just she's awesome.

SPEAKER_04 31:36

Yeah. She um and it's you know, she endeared herself to the LGBT plus community and kind of cemented her status as a as an icon, I think.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:51

I think what's really interesting this week is that the three episodes that we've done so far, all of the campness has kind of been tinged with a little bit of nafthness at the same time. Yes, yeah. I think the clips that we're gonna watch this week, there is no doubt in my mind that they are camp.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:15

But there's a level to it that we possibly haven't seen so far. There's a an actual craft.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

Craft Um It's interesting because I I enjoy NAF.

SPEAKER_04 32:30

Yes, you do I think. Yeah, oh yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

But all of the ones that we've done so far have been British.

SPEAKER_04 32:36

Yeah. Oh yes, actually, I hadn't thought about that.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

And I do think as British people, we enjoy quite a lot of NAF in our camp because it I don't know, we don't like always like people to try too hard. We also like things that go a bit wrong. But I do think there's a level of performance in the US where we'll see quite often it that even in their camp they're outdoing us on skill level and uh production level. Anyway, I haven't I don't know what the clips are gonna be yet. I might take it back.

SPEAKER_04 33:08

No, yes. This is the point where we move into watching the clips this week. Um I would just like to remind everybody that the clips are there, are links to all of the clips in our episode description. Um you can watch along with us. We leave a little gap for you to go and find the clip. Um, I will tell you which one it is before we go into it. Uh, or you can sit and watch them all now and just listen along, or if you fancy, just don't listen to any uh don't watch any of them. Just listen to our analysis and nonsense.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

Just imagine.

SPEAKER_04 33:44

Yes, this is your call to action. Um, the first clip that we are going to watch this week, I had to include, I think you've seen it before, um, but there was no way that I could not include this clip.

SPEAKER_03 34:01

I'm excited.

SPEAKER_04 34:02

Uh this is Be Arthur's journey into the Star Wars universe.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

Excellent.

SPEAKER_04 34:16

So that was Be Arthur in the Star Wars Holiday Special.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

Yeah, and if people don't know about the Holiday Special, um it is one of the most mocked pieces of media of all time.

SPEAKER_04 34:33

Because George Lucas has definitely distanced himself.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Yes, he he wishes it would disappear, basically. Because they made it at the time of like Star Wars, you know, fever.

SPEAKER_04 34:44

1978. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:45

So things have gone mad with the movie coming out, and they did what they did for lots of like, you know, things that were uh popular, is tried to do some kind of like, you know, TV thing of it, and they they made this abomination because it I think it you know it's for Christmas, but they can't reference Christmas because that doesn't exist in a galaxy far, far away. So then they have like I know in the not in this clip, but I know they have like some kind of it's Wookiee Earth Day or whatever, but they just they try to do things that you would do on a like a big Christmas special, but make them Star Wars.

SPEAKER_04 35:26

And I mean I g I gather from this like a variety special as well. Exactly, yeah. Because B is working in I I believe it's supposed to be the bar that we see in the first Star Wars.

SPEAKER_02 35:40

It's kicking out time at the cantina or whatever, yeah. And she's the landlady.

SPEAKER_04 35:46

Yes, she is, and she's singing a song.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

It's quite a sad song.

SPEAKER_04 35:51

It's called Goodnight but not goodbye.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:54

Which I mean, basically the point is get out of my pub.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

Yes, it is. She's throwing them out of her pub. Yeah. But she seems really sad about it. Like, good night, friend. You know, don't shed a tear from it's only the end of the night.

SPEAKER_04 36:08

She um I think I don't think this is as obviously camp as some of the stuff we've seen.

SPEAKER_02 36:16

It's not the it's not the like, you know, feathers and sequins type of camp. It is the this is totally absurd type of camp.

SPEAKER_04 36:26

And I think what makes it camp is that she is playing it completely straight.

SPEAKER_02 36:31

A hundred percent, I agree.

SPEAKER_04 36:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

She I would love to know what the atmosphere on set was like that day. Because she is a total pro.

SPEAKER_03 36:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

And she sings this like this were any other musical, and they said to her, you know, this is this is your big number as the landlady. So, you know, um just do this and say goodbye to all the customers, and you know, at this point you'll sit down and you'll sing and just you know, touch the face of the customer next to you. It just in this case, that's a giant hamster. Going Because they're all they're all dressed like they're from Star Wars.

SPEAKER_04 37:14

Yeah, well, not all.

SPEAKER_02 37:15

They couldn't they didn't have the budget for all of them.

SPEAKER_04 37:17

Well, yeah, the budget is is not quite as up there as the films, is it?

SPEAKER_02 37:20

No, some of them have just got hats on and they don't face the camera. But she's yeah, she's just like she's just singing into their faces, these like masks.

SPEAKER_04 37:32

Yeah. She sings to them and then she dances with some of them.

SPEAKER_02 37:37

Oh, the dancing.

SPEAKER_04 37:38

And but it begins sort of quite, you know, they're in like a traditional hold, like a waltz hold.

SPEAKER_02 37:44

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:44

And then she moves on to someone else and just does a bit of hands.

SPEAKER_02 37:48

Um yeah, that was how I would phrase it. Because he um I don't know the uh the what the aliens are in Star Wars.

SPEAKER_04 37:58

Um I don't think any of these are I would consider identifiable racism.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

I reckon that blue guy with the fingers is.

SPEAKER_04 38:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

I'm sure uh there's like a I'm sure there's one of them in the films. Anyway, he's got the long fingers.

SPEAKER_04 38:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

And so they don't do the traditional hold, they do a kind of finger waggle at each other.

SPEAKER_04 38:20

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 38:21

But which is nice, she's obviously accepting of his customs.

SPEAKER_04 38:29

Well one of my big takeaways from this is it's a song about leaving the pub. Yeah, and we get to a point at which no one has left the pub.

SPEAKER_02 38:37

Yeah, yes. That is what it's like at kicking out time, though, isn't it? You know?

SPEAKER_04 38:42

Yeah, but I wonder also if it's a case of we've paid for these alien costumes. They're not leaving too soon.

SPEAKER_02 38:51

No.

SPEAKER_04 38:51

We need the footage.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

We need every extra we can get.

SPEAKER_04 38:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

Don't don't let anybody leave too early because it'll look empty.

SPEAKER_04 38:59

So she rouses them into a sing-along.

SPEAKER_02 39:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:03

Da da da da.

SPEAKER_02 39:07

Sort of a sing-along.

SPEAKER_04 39:08

Yeah, they don't really join in today.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

Not really. Um there's one point at which I wasn't sure if they were joining in or if they were just screaming. Because I think their mics are turned right down. They're not singers, they're just guys in costumes. And it just sounds like they go in the background.

SPEAKER_04 39:26

At the end of that section, we get a fade that I can only describe as a 70s fade. Like I don't, it's like a sort of soft cross cut to the point where most of them have left the bar. Yeah. The song somehow gets more serious.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

Really does. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:46

Goodbye, friend. Don't say goodnight, friend. And she's seating out the band.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:52

And then there's big big man.

SPEAKER_02 39:55

Big blue lad.

SPEAKER_04 39:56

Big blue man. Comes in, she leans upon him and then pulls away like she's never gonna see him again.

SPEAKER_02 40:06

And again, but not even a flicker that she's treating this as a joke.

SPEAKER_04 40:12

No.

SPEAKER_02 40:13

She is a hundred percent committed to it.

SPEAKER_04 40:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

Which I love.

SPEAKER_04 40:17

Yeah, he kind of goes, Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

He doesn't get a lot of bookings. He's of a size where he's mostly doing he's in costumes a lot, you know, doing the aliens or whatever. And uh so he just lets B. Arthur sort of rest her head for a second, and then he's like, okay, I'll go. I just I I honestly what what do they think was happening here?

SPEAKER_04 40:39

She's dressed in well, it's long and flowy.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:43

There's no shape or anything to it, which I don't think you need in space.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

Do you think she looks like she's in a Star Wars movie?

SPEAKER_04 40:55

I think I feel like what's happened is they've gone how do we make her look like she's in a Star Wars movie?

SPEAKER_02 41:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 41:05

But still let people know it's still Bee Arthur.

SPEAKER_02 41:08

Yeah, you can't do too much.

SPEAKER_04 41:09

Because she's essentially got the same hairstyle as Maud.

SPEAKER_02 41:12

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 41:13

Which she's possibly just Bee Arthur's hairstyle, you know.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:17

But they've added this sort of long ratty ponytail on it to it.

SPEAKER_02 41:22

I enjoy the hair. I like the ratty ponytail. I don't think it's that ratty, I think it's er I don't know, spacey.

SPEAKER_04 41:31

Well, yes, that's what I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

I did grow up watching original Star Trek and I'm very forgiving on the special effects of the time. And um there aren't any.

SPEAKER_04 41:46

No, there are no special effects in this. It's you you in the hamster hat.

SPEAKER_02 41:53

You in the hamster sit in the dark because could you do a weird noise for us just to really sell that you're a you know alien space?

SPEAKER_04 42:03

It's all a little bit dolphin, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 42:04

It it is a little bit, yeah, yeah. Oh, it it's sort of inexplicable, isn't it? Because when you when you want somebody to sing on a big variety Christmas special, yeah, you sort of either want it to be an incredibly impressive performance, in which case it's just them, or if in like a scene like this you want to kind of feel the moment, it's impossible to feel anything about this. Like it's kicking time out kicking out time at a pub in space, a galaxy far, far away, you know, the bell has rung and you've all got to go home. It's not that sad. Why is everyone so sad?

SPEAKER_04 42:45

If they've put stakes in where there is none.

SPEAKER_02 42:49

No. Is that what makes it camp?

SPEAKER_04 42:51

I I feel like almost the song has been written separate to the scenario.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:58

They've got there on the day and gone, these two things don't really work, but we don't have time. It feels like to do anything else with it.

SPEAKER_02 43:06

A lot of decisions were made by people with totally opposite intentions.

SPEAKER_04 43:12

The song is almost like it should be set at a spaceport where they're saying goodbye to people.

SPEAKER_02 43:18

Waving waving off the rebel alliance as they go to their possible deaths, rather than just going home from the pub.

SPEAKER_04 43:26

Yeah, and they've gone. We haven't got the budget for that.

SPEAKER_02 43:30

Budget's not there.

SPEAKER_04 43:31

No, we're gonna put it in the pub.

SPEAKER_02 43:33

Yes. Well, I think we just figured out the mystery of that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:39

This was not Bee Arthur's only foray into television variety.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 43:44

In 1980, she got her own special.

SPEAKER_00 43:48

Oh.

SPEAKER_04 43:48

The Bee Arthur Special.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Excellent.

SPEAKER_04 43:50

And we're now going to watch the opening of the Bee Arthur Special. So I've got to correct myself. It is actually the Beatrice Arthur Special.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

The Beatrice Arthur Special.

SPEAKER_04 44:07

The Beatrice Arthur Special.

SPEAKER_02 44:09

All I want in the world is for there to be specials like this again. It's all I want. It seems like they everybody had one back then.

SPEAKER_04 44:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:21

Everybody got to have a go where you just had big song and dance numbers, loads of like special guests, sparkly costumes.

SPEAKER_04 44:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:30

And where is it now? That's what I want. That's all I want.

SPEAKER_04 44:35

Oh well, I'll see what I can do. I the first thing I want to talk about.

SPEAKER_02 44:41

Yeah. There's a lot to talk about.

SPEAKER_04 44:43

There's a lot to unpack. First thing I want to talk about is what she's wearing.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 44:48

Because I don't say this often about women.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 44:54

I think she looks fit.

SPEAKER_02 44:59

All the things you were going to say, I didn't guess. But I do I do know what you mean.

SPEAKER_04 45:03

You if you know B. Arthur from The Golden Girls and even and you know B. Arthur from Maud, she is dressed in long, drapey, flowy, shapeless, high-necked, floor-hitting stuff.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:21

In this, she is wearing a low-cut dress with a bit of cleavage.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

I ha yes, I haven't often seen cleavage.

SPEAKER_04 45:30

And a big slit up the side.

SPEAKER_02 45:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 45:33

It's shapely, it's flattering, and I am confused. A big but like she's never looked better.

SPEAKER_02 45:46

I've never seen like she look she looks fantastic. Yeah. She does. It's yeah, I was surprised by how dramatic that slit is. But she's got great legs under there. And she's still on the top, she's still B Arthur. She's still what you're what you recognise. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, she's got all this body that like yes, it's hidden a lot in uh the other things. It's it it's very it's very it's a very eighties look.

SPEAKER_04 46:12

It's a very eighties look, it's very sequined, it's very shoulder pads, it's camp, but you can't deny that that is a camp outfit.

SPEAKER_02 46:20

In terms of camp, this was dripping with it.

SPEAKER_04 46:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 46:24

The whole thing. Because it's the it's the opening to the special.

SPEAKER_04 46:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:29

And she comes out in that, she looks amazing, and she introduces her her special guests for this episode.

SPEAKER_04 46:36

Who are Rock Hudson?

SPEAKER_02 46:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 46:38

Who at the time nobody knew was gay.

SPEAKER_02 46:40

Yeah, I was gonna say he's one of the infamous closet uh Hollywood gays.

SPEAKER_04 46:44

Uh Rock Hudson, Melbourne Moore, and Madam.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

Yes, I d I don't know Melbourne Moore, I don't know anything.

SPEAKER_04 46:51

I don't know a lot about Melbourne Moore.

SPEAKER_02 46:53

Madam is that fucking puppet. Which is camp, you know, you can't deny having a puppet as a guest.

SPEAKER_04 47:03

No.

SPEAKER_02 47:03

Covered in feathers, it is a camp puppet. Um and I uh I just I don't like it. Every time I see it, it's so horrible.

SPEAKER_04 47:15

And they they all sort of sing a bit. Yeah, they all have a little join in runs up some stairs showing her legs off and joins them.

SPEAKER_02 47:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:23

And then there's a little dance number with some banjos.

SPEAKER_02 47:26

Yes, yeah, loads, tons of dancers. Again, these are the things I want, loads of dancers.

SPEAKER_03 47:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:32

But the the women are doing like the traditional sort of dancing, and then they've got men with ukulele's or banjos. Banjos, yeah. Banjos.

SPEAKER_04 47:40

Jumping.

SPEAKER_02 47:40

Jumping.

SPEAKER_04 47:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 47:42

Odd. Love it.

SPEAKER_04 47:43

And the other thing, um, speaking of dancing, is B is giving us a lovely bit of hip wiggle. Yeah. She's giving us a shimmy.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

She a definite shimmy.

SPEAKER_04 47:52

She's the the tits are out and she's showing them to all.

SPEAKER_02 47:56

She's enjoying it. Yeah. She's And it's one of those great um sets that they would have that isn't trying to look like anything. No. It's just like b huge like set pieces moving around and uh it's just fun. Yeah. It's really camp. Really camp. And then after this big song and dance number with all of them, I would I would argue that it's also quite camp to duet yourself.

SPEAKER_04 48:26

Yes. She so she she sets it up by saying that the network came up with characters for her.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 48:33

She shows us some of these characters, which we'll get on to in a minute, and then at the end she says, I just want to be myself. So she brings out another version of herself.

SPEAKER_00 48:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:43

Duets and harmonises with herself. She's doing it all.

SPEAKER_02 48:49

It's fantastic.

SPEAKER_04 48:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:50

But it's definitely camp.

SPEAKER_04 48:52

It's definitely camp.

SPEAKER_02 48:54

It's so it's so wild and out there. I think the special effects budget was probably blown by having two of her in front of the screen.

SPEAKER_04 49:02

Yeah, yeah. So the characters that she chooses.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:06

She the first one, she makes a reference to Carol Burnett. I don't know a lot about the Carol Burnett show. I'm guessing it's a it's an identifiable figure from the Carol Burnett show.

SPEAKER_02 49:17

I yeah, maybe it is. It's it's a sort of it's a cleaner kind of character, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 49:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:23

And I don't know if that's something that Carol Burnett would have done a lot of, or it's just because Carol Burnett, her show was on so long that she'd done every character. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 49:31

Possibly.

SPEAKER_02 49:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:32

The next one is a pastiche of Dolly Parton.

SPEAKER_02 49:37

Definitely.

SPEAKER_04 49:38

Yeah, there's no mistaking.

SPEAKER_02 49:40

She has some very identifiable features.

SPEAKER_04 49:44

We're back to the breasts again, aren't we?

SPEAKER_02 49:46

The breasts are giant.

SPEAKER_04 49:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:48

Like even if you're even as a pastiche of Dolly, they're still big. Egregiously big.

SPEAKER_04 49:55

Yeah. The hair is big, the big blonde.

SPEAKER_02 49:57

The hair's quite big. It's it's big, it's big enough for us to know it's Dolly. Those tits are so huge, I just gotta say. And she's in this pink thing, sort of looks like the Barbie movie, actually.

SPEAKER_04 50:09

Yeah, it's a pink jumpsuit.

SPEAKER_02 50:12

Yeah. Obviously, we would say pink jumpsuit at the same time on her camp podcast. Um yeah, it's very it's fine, it's obviously Dolly, but the the breasts really just sear into the eyes. They're like two they're like two balloons in there, they're huge. Very round.

SPEAKER_04 50:35

She wears them well, I think. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:37

I don't like seeing it, but yes.

SPEAKER_04 50:39

Yeah. Yeah. And then she comes out as Cher dressed for the Met Gala. Yep. Um and starts flinging her hair around.

SPEAKER_02 50:53

Yeah, she's got the sh the long share wig.

SPEAKER_04 50:55

They don't they don't give a lot of airtime to that look, considering You'd like to see more of that? I she's but I think what's weird is the others, they come out, she does a couple of jokes about it, and then she sends them away. In this one, she comes out and she's like, No! And she immediately goes. So I I don't know if they were running short for time.

SPEAKER_02 51:15

She's almost fully new to that share outfit. Yeah, it's it's it's the Bob Mackey um one, isn't it? And it's got you know just sequins here and there.

SPEAKER_04 51:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:24

Um there's not a lingering close-up of that.

SPEAKER_04 51:27

No, but the overall taste that one takes away from this is undoubtedly camp.

SPEAKER_02 51:36

Yes. Yeah, but it's it's actually it's almost like a menu of camp.

unknown 51:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:43

She goes, here you go. These are the other versions of camp that there are. You can have your shares, you can have your Dolly Partons, um, that's all good.

SPEAKER_04 51:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:51

But I'm gonna give you B Arthur. Yes. Which is it's camp. It is camp. Camp on camp.

SPEAKER_04 51:58

Yeah. There's it is one of those, if somebody said to me, show me what camp is.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:03

I this is one of those clips I'd be able to put on and go, Here you are. It's all there.

SPEAKER_01 52:08

Here you go. Have a look at that.

SPEAKER_04 52:14

Uh we're moving forward in time now to the Tony Awards.

SPEAKER_02 52:17

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 52:18

1987.

SPEAKER_02 52:20

The year I was born. I shouldn't give that away.

SPEAKER_04 52:22

Oh, well.

SPEAKER_02 52:23

They might have thought I was younger.

SPEAKER_04 52:24

They probably thought I was older. We're moving to the 1987 Tony Awards where she is revisiting the character Vera Charles from the musical MAME.

SPEAKER_02 52:35

I'm excited. Oh I love that clip.

SPEAKER_04 52:49

I I've got a question for you about that clip.

SPEAKER_02 52:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 52:52

Do you feel like you're looking at our future? Because I do.

SPEAKER_02 53:03

In my head, uh as I'm watching it, I'm thinking, could me and Nick do this? It we don't have a reason to.

SPEAKER_04 53:17

I say let's find a reason.

SPEAKER_02 53:19

Yes, absolutely. Oh, I loved that so much. Yes. I loved it so much.

SPEAKER_04 53:26

So that was B. Arthur and Angela Lansbury performing Bozom Buddies from MAME at the 1987 Tony Awards.

SPEAKER_02 53:36

Which I think w when you said Angela Lansbury, or when I saw Angela Lansbury, I immediately knew it would be Camp. The two of them together just can't fail to be Camp somehow.

SPEAKER_04 53:49

No, and this is one of those clips that I was watching in Readiness. Yes. And it I was like For the podcast. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 53:59

Not General Preparedness for Everyday Life.

SPEAKER_04 54:04

Sure. Um I was watching it and I was like, I cannot describe this as anything other than camp.

SPEAKER_02 54:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 54:13

But at the same time, it is not it is pure talent and pure class.

SPEAKER_02 54:21

Yeah. It's it's two women singing, and they're doing a good job. So why is it why is it so camp?

SPEAKER_04 54:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:28

But it is.

SPEAKER_04 54:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 54:30

And I I think I don't I don't know, like the the theoretical side of camp keeps coming up to bite us in the arse, but like there's something about how good they are, and they are like older women, and they're so in charge of themselves that they kind of just they just give it to you like here it is. Yes, just take it and see what you think of that. And they don't care if you like it, just have it. It's this it is such a beautiful like attitude that they have to performing that is so good. Plus sequins also.

SPEAKER_04 55:09

Sequins, I mean B. Arthur walks onto the stage, and I mean she's pretty much literally wearing what you're wearing right now.

SPEAKER_02 55:16

Yeah, I would say, you know, mine came from the charity shop, so um hers is probably a little better, but yes, I did I there was a slight recognition as I saw her come out. I love Angela Lansbury's dress. Oh my goodness, it's got the wide neckline. Yeah. It's OTT and they just they look great together.

SPEAKER_04 55:40

The outfits don't sort of go.

SPEAKER_02 55:42

They don't match.

SPEAKER_04 55:43

No.

SPEAKER_02 55:44

No, but I like that.

SPEAKER_04 55:45

Yeah. Uh there's something about this song as well that is quite camp because they're sort of saying what brilliant friends they are.

SPEAKER_00 55:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:55

Whilst throwing barbs at each other and Yeah, there are reeds in there.

SPEAKER_02 56:02

It's like Yeah. Yes, it's a kind of banter that is specific, I think, to uh women engaged. I don't know, shall we say it that way? That yeah, that is very much like we are friends, but I am gonna tell you what I think of you.

SPEAKER_04 56:19

Yes, which another re is another reason I think that it's us.

SPEAKER_02 56:23

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_04 56:26

There's no other way I can do that.

SPEAKER_02 56:29

No, I get it, I see it.

SPEAKER_04 56:30

Yeah, yeah. I think there's going back to the the sort of their older women doing things that you don't that society sort of doesn't think that older women should do.

SPEAKER_02 56:44

Are you going to bring up the choreo?

SPEAKER_04 56:48

Yes, I am going to bring up the choreo. But you know, they're they're hip bumping and they're sort of thrusting and shimmies and it's like they're they're sort of there's a sort of sexual aspect to that.

SPEAKER_02 57:05

An in-control sexuality.

SPEAKER_04 57:07

Yes, absolutely. I'm a woman in my 50s, and I'm gonna bump my bum in your face and I'm gonna show you my tits and I've said tits so many times this week.

SPEAKER_02 57:18

Don't often have much reason to say it. No, I don't, no, tits. Um absolutely because if they if like when you see somebody performing at 20, yeah, quite often there's a sort of those movements are to you know uh please like a male audience.

SPEAKER_03 57:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 57:38

This isn't meant to do that, this is for them, I would say, and if it's pleasing anyone, it's a it's a very specific male audience, but like it it is it's for them and they're in control of it, which I think is wonderful. I think that's why we kind of like why lots of people idolise them is because they've got to uh an age or they are a type of person that is in control of that.

SPEAKER_04 58:05

And I what I will just add to that is that the male audience that I think would enjoy it, yes, I'm not watching the Tony Awards.

SPEAKER_02 58:16

What do you think they're doing?

SPEAKER_04 58:18

Probably in their sheds.

SPEAKER_02 58:20

In their sheds, yes, model train set.

SPEAKER_04 58:24

Sure, that's what I was gonna Yeah. That's what I thought they were doing. Um we're gonna move to another awards ceremony now. Oh, alright. And this is the American Comedy Awards. This is from 1992. And bizarrely, given that we're only on episode four, we're gonna encounter our second sea lion on team.

SPEAKER_02 58:55

Does that make them the campest animal?

SPEAKER_04 58:57

Well, we can discuss that, I think, once we've watched the clip. Okay, let's watch the club.

SPEAKER_02 59:01

Here we go. So even though you told me there was going to be a sea lion, nothing could have prepared me for that clip.

unknown 59:18

Nothing.

SPEAKER_04 59:20

That sea lion. We've we've never really addressed how we know each other on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 59:27

We haven't, have we?

SPEAKER_04 59:28

Um but we're husband and wife.

SPEAKER_01 59:31

Um Imagine.

SPEAKER_04 59:33

Imagine all those people going, oh that poor woman she doesn't know. Um so we basically met studying comedy at university, and I would put out there into the universe that that sea line has better comic timing than some of the people that we work with.

SPEAKER_02 59:55

Harsh but fair.

SPEAKER_04 59:59

So it's comic timing is impeccable. I know. So basically, Bee Arthur is presenting at the American Comedy Awards.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:07

Which I've never heard of.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:08

No, neither have I. I don't know they exist anymore.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:12

And she comes out and she says, the producers have promised me it's going to be very dignified and short for me this year.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:20

After which on cue, outcomes a sea lion.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:24

Now you say outcomes. Okay. A sea lion is very big. Yeah. It's a very big animal. It slides across the stage into position next to B. Arthur.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:41

Where usually you would have a uh a co-host just slides into its position. Very natural. But it's frankly astonishing sight to see uh next to this giant animal.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:55

Oh, I yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:56

And then they go into what I assume is a pre-rehearsed routine.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:02

Yeah, are they doing a double act?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:04

Yeah. Quite an impressive double act. Where the seal does everything perfectly.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:12

To the point where, like, you can teach a seal Sea lion. A sea lion, sorry, they are different. You can you can train a sea lion, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:23

Well so you say that.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:24

You can but you can assume you can train it to do stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:29

Like jump through this hoop or blah blah blah. I hazard a guess that you cannot teach a sea lion comic timing like that. That sea lion is a natural.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:46

I have to be honest, right. You don't see this sort of stuff on TV anymore. No, because it's quite cruel.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:54

And the things that they make this sea lion do, I don't know how they managed to get those into its head. It was born with a gift, I'm telling you. It's uh it laughs at her.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:13

It laughs at her, it smiles, it covers its face, it claps at one point.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:19

The clapping I could understand, the clapping I expected.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:21

And the clapping is the point at which I say to you, yes, the sea lion is the campest animal.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:26

Yes. Well, it yes, it is, it's very camp. The little clap is it sticks its tongue out at her.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:35

Yes. It can do it all. And it goes toe-to-toe with her. At no point do you feel like if anything, the sea lion's in control.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:47

She's playing second fiddle to the sea lion.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:50

Yes, she is. She's the straight man to a sea lion.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:54

Now, this is camp, but this is an unexpected version of camp. Yes. Because if you say, Oh, I want something to be camp, you can think of like sequins and feathers and you know, lots of bright colours, or tap dancers. You can think of those things as camp. You would never think of a sea lion.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:12

No.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:13

And yet.

unknown 1:03:14

And yet.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:15

It's the I think the campness in this is the unexpectedness.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:20

And that it's so perfectly pitched. It's so good. Why is it so good? It shouldn't be. I know. Like I sort of still work within the realms of comedy. I'll never be as good as that sea lion. Is that how you feel watching it? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:38

You know, it's just a a little man off stage going, do this now. You know that, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:43

How? We can't we can't hear him? Is the sea line wearing an earpiece? Like this is rehearsed. Oh god.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:54

This is this is I don't think they even have ears. Intricate rehearsed stuff. It is incredibly good and it shouldn't be this good.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:05

Maybe I'd be that good if someone offered me a fish at the end.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:08

Maybe. Do you perform for fish?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:12

No.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:13

Have you?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:14

I perform for money.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:16

Fair. Yeah. That's fair enough. It is incredibly good and it shouldn't be this good and it's very, very odd. Yeah. I loved that though.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:25

Yeah. We I couldn't let this podcast go past without a Golden Girls clip.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:32

Thank goodness.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:34

And I know quite a lot about the Golden Girls, and I found myself stumped. I thought, what what do I pick?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:43

How can you narrow it down?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:45

And I narrowed it down to two and I didn't know which one to go with. And then I found out that one of the two that I had picked was from Be Arthur's favourite episode of the Golden Girls.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:00

Alright.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:00

And so I had to go with that one.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:02

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:02

I had to. So this is Be Arthur in the episode An Illegitimate Concern from the Golden Girls. So not for the first time this week. We've got B. Arthur dressed as Cher. Yes. This time she's joined by Estel Getty dressed as Sunny.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:31

With quite a substantial height difference.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:33

I think she looks fantastic as Sonny.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:36

Which is really strange. So she's supposed to be in the show Dorothy, so B. Arthur's mother. Yes. The character's mother.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:48

Um and in this episode they are entering into a mother daughter pageant.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:52

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:53

An old people's home. And they're putting together their talent. And they decide to

SPEAKER_02 1:06:03

And uh Rose is uh playing so that's Betty White's character, is playing the piano for them. Yes. And there's a great joke just with the piano when um Dorothy walks out dressed as Cher and she just does a very long look and keeps playing the piano, but just it just they this is one of the great things about the Golden Girls is once you know the characters, just a look can sell you on a laugh. It's so much fun.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:34

The the look she gives her tells me she has a hundred things to say and daren't say any of them, basically. Um dear. So she comes out, she's dressed to share, and I would say more so than our previous Be Arthur's chair. That's a weird sentence.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:54

That's very weird it is.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:56

Um she's really committing to the bit.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:00

She's got the sort of the tongue movements, she's she's brushing the hair away.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:05

She's doing the hair.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:06

And nothing is gonna break her.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:10

No, no. Well she because she we know she has a great voice.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:15

So she sings a bit of that song. She's she's doing a great job.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:20

Uh it it is just comical to see her as Cher because it's such a different look.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:27

Yes, and the the especially in the Golden Girls because they put her in all of these high-collar clothes and blouses and turtlenecks and ties, perhaps.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:42

Um despite dressing up, we haven't spoken that much about the fashion um of the Golden Girls, but No, oh that's a podcast in itself. It is a podcast in itself, but yeah, there's definitely a look that Dorothy has.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:57

And all of them have their individual looks. So for her to be such a departure is it it's funny straight away.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:06

Even without a little um mum there dressed as Sonny, which is just good.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:12

The height difference adds to it.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:13

It's so fun.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:14

The thing is, is I always, always thought of B as like a very tall woman. And when I say tall, I mean like sort of 5'11.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:26

She's actually only 5'9.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:27

When I had well, you said earlier that she was 5'9, and I was like, Imagine it just seems like she's towering over people and she's like a couple of inches bigger than average.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:38

The golden girl, she would always wear flats.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:41

Yes because so you look at that.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:45

She wouldn't be in frame with the others if she wasn't.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:47

But you think how small was this Delgeti?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:50

She's a tiny little lady.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:51

Because that sort of height difference, I don't I don't there's something about that visual that is camp.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:00

It's sort of they're kind of polar, they're polar opposites.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:07

And they're making it work somehow.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:10

And the fact that she's supposed to be her mother, I don't know what the age difference is, but it's not realistic, I assume.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:17

So in real life, B. Arthur is a year older than Estelle Getty.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:21

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:22

Who's playing her mother.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:24

I was almost gonna say I assume B. Arthur's older, but yeah, there's like there's something funny about trying to sell us these two as uh mother and daughter. Yeah. Because they're just two different. It's it Yeah. It's just hilarious.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:38

Yeah. The other thing I like about this clip is that in we have the Sonny and Cher moment, and then we have a little bit of a joke that I think sort of encompasses a lot of Dorothy's character.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:53

Where Rose tells them that something dreadful has happened back in St Olaf. And uh Dorothy says, What is it? War, poverty, famine, and then Rose says, opposite sides of the street parking. And you get this this classic Be Arthur Dorothy response to Rose, where again it's just a look. Yes. It's the sort of look. I you're not gonna know what I've just done.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:22

They can't see that, but they can imagine it if they've seen the Golden Girls.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:25

If you've seen the Golden Girl, and it's in that clip as well, so I think that's the thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:29

It there are times in the Golden Girls where Be Arthur just the thought of how her character is gonna react is enough. Because you know all those characters so well and they're so uh the chemistry is so good that just the idea of her hearing something, you're already laughing at what she's going to say, and the looks are part of that. She can sell all uh so many jokes are just her looking.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:58

Yeah, and it like it's just the measure of her talent that she can do so much with so little absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:06

She's so wonderful in that role, and they're all good, and the chemistry is absolutely perfect. Yes. I think that's why it works so well, and did you know, for so many seasons the like quality doesn't really drop.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:20

No, not at all. No. So what do you think B.A.'s legacy is?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:27

Well, I think I think she will always be associated with that role of Dorothy, but I also think there's yeah, a real kind of like ally status. Uh her like work with people and this centre that you said has got her name now. I think that will really live on as well. That's yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:50

Um it's kind of uh it's great when somebody is really beloved by uh like the queer community, but also uh, you know, feeds that back by actually doing stuff for them. And it isn't just that everybody loves her and they make you know jokes about her and she makes them laugh whatever. It's also that she's feeding back and you know, she's sitting there and like you said, meeting the homeless youth and all all these sorts of things that she wants to do. Um I think that's really a great side to have to an icon, you know?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:30

Yeah, and also does it not for publicity.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:34

Yeah, just a genuine kind of yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:38

A genuine interest.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:39

Mmm. I think that's a really wonderful legacy for her to have.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:43

Yeah, I I think the the funny is also part of her legacy. I know that when I first discovered the Golden Girls, uh there was a lot I took from them in terms of performance and things that they did and things. And it like it's true of all four of them, but I think especially because I somewhat identify as a Dorothy and I just I just felt this natural draw to be Arthur. I don't I can't explain it. I just wanted to know more about her. But there are you know, she was someone at the top of her game. She knew how to rinse every bit of comedy out of something.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:33

She's so good. That's that's the thing. Yeah, you know, she does she's uh been on Broadway, she does singing, she does all she does everything and yeah, in terms of her comic timing, she's so good. And do like she's within this group in the Golden Girls of people who are incredibly talented, and it's wonderful just to watch her do her thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:59

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:01

We l we love her so much, don't we?

SPEAKER_04 1:14:03

It's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:04

We already knew we thought she was an icon.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:06

Yeah, but I mean there's no objectivity this week. No, no, no, but I think there needs to be.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:12

No, no, don't care for it. Woo!

SPEAKER_04 1:14:16

So that was the B Arthur episode of Camp Icons. You can follow us on Instagram at Camp Icons Podcast. That's at Camp Icons Podcast. Um, and I I've not mentioned before, but you can uh see what we're wearing on the Instagram. That uh that should be reason enough to give us a follow because it's just getting more and more out of hand. We also have a Facebook page. Is it on there as well? Yes, yeah, absolutely. Uh whether anyone is looking at it or not, I've got no idea. And also, this week, the first week, I am mentioning our TikTok. We I I still don't really know how it works.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:05

On the Tiki Tock, are you still? On the Get on them TikToks.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:10

And we again are at Camp Icons Podcast. Next week, next time on the Camp Icons Podcast, we are looking at Mz Earth a Kit.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:25

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:28

I think you'll find it's Wow. Oh, lovely. There'll be a lot more of that next week. Goodbye for now.