Kenneth Williams

This week it’s our first male camp icon, and the honour is bestowed upon Kenneth Williams known for his impeccable comedic talents and storytelling prowess. This episode takes us through polari, radio comedy, the Carry On films and we answer the age old question - is pizza camp?

Watch along with our video section at the links below!

Make Mine Mink - https://youtu.be/EfaFLwK_ZBs?si=rYWbyMi2Ou5g7ae2 

Carry On Cleo - https://youtu.be/k_KMxiklUeU 

The Kenneth Williams Show - https://youtu.be/vrhuDW_nadc?si=HVekbrUEvi2J6gaD 

On Edith Evans  - https://youtu.be/oYuO75WP4eo?si=XjsHkMcKipM7q29W 

Kenneth Williams meets Joan Rivers - https://youtu.be/5PgUJRZOQyo 

We are indebted to those who have originally uploaded these videos, this podcast wouldn't be possible without them!

Follow us on social media for more nonsense:

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Camp Icons. I'm Nick. And I'm Liz. How's your week been, Liz?

SPEAKER_03 0:08

It's been very good. Excellent. You know, enjoying the sunshine.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Yes, we are recording this in the middle of a heat wave.

SPEAKER_03 0:14

I don't know when this episode will be out. We might be missing the heat wave by then, but it could be snowing, knowing who knows.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Knowing the weather here. Um I went to a wedding at the weekend. Oh yes. I think they're always quite sort of camping themselves, really, aren't they? Weddings. Because you don't often see women walking down the street in very large trained dresses.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

And veils.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

And veils. Uh this bride didn't have a veil.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

Oh, shame. I mean, how often are you gonna get to wear one? I think just go for it.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

True. I think we should bring back the funeral veil myself. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 0:50

The drama. Where's the drama gone?

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Uh are you excited for this week's subject?

SPEAKER_03 0:56

Do you know what? I don't think I've been more excited than this.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Really?

SPEAKER_03 0:59

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

How exciting. Right then, let's dive straight in to the Camp Icons episode on Kenneth Williams. So, Kenneth Williams, our f our first male camp icon.

SPEAKER_03 1:30

Yes. Well, we had to slip one in. I've started early.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Started, yeah. So tell me what you know about Kenneth Williams.

SPEAKER_03 1:39

Listen, I feel like I know quite a lot about him.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

I feel like you're not going to be able to surprise me, which is, you know, very uh bit big headed for of me, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Challenge accepted.

SPEAKER_03 1:53

Yes, absolutely. So I think most people will associate him with the carry-on films.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Uh yes, I think so.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

Of which I am a huge fan. I know there's some problematic stuff in there.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

So it's really interesting because I have started re-watching them from the beginning.

SPEAKER_03 2:10

Have you?

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Yes. Um, because I recently discovered another podcast called Carry On Up the Podcast.

SPEAKER_03 2:18

Oh, Shout Out.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Uh Shout Out, yeah. I'm sure they need our help. Um and they are basically re-watching them.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

And so I decided that I would watch along with them.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

And the first I think I've watched the first three and they are surprisingly unproblematic, actually.

SPEAKER_03 2:37

I think this is the thing, is they got more into a trap of using ladies with big boobies and racial stereotypes as time went on. At the beginning, they're just like the stars of the time coming together to do a story.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Yeah, absolutely. And um they are I don't know, don't know what I was gonna say.

SPEAKER_03 3:02

I I genuinely have always loved carry-on, so I haven't re-watched um them so recently, but I grew up watching the carry-on movies. And I think when I when I was growing up, other people in comedy always referenced Monty Python, which I hated.

SPEAKER_04 3:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:19

I've never got on with it at all. But I loved the carry-on films, and they were always sort of seen as a bit unfashionable and tacky, and were actually the performances in them are so good. So good. I understand why people, if they don't choose to, you know, partake of carry-on because of some of the content, I totally respect that. But yeah, some of the stars in them, we just wouldn't have as much of these people if those movies hadn't been made. And I always absolutely loved them. So I feel I feel like I'm a carry-on, it's in my DNA as a I would say the same actually.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

I think it's it it was one of my earliest exposures to comedy, I guess. Um I think the first one that I watched, I was thinking about this the other day. I think it was Carry-on Teacher, which is one of the earlier ones. And then, you know, you gradually graduate onto your doctors, your campings, your up the kibers.

SPEAKER_03 4:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

The whole lot. I hope we get through all of them today talking about them.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Uh well, we can try. No, no, maybe maybe not all 31 of them.

SPEAKER_03 4:31

Is that how many?

SPEAKER_00 4:32

There's 31 of them, and Kenneth Williams was in 26 of them.

SPEAKER_03 4:39

Wow. Well, I I knew he was a store, but that is uh yeah. It's uh it's incredible. And obviously, I'm saying I love carry-on and I love all those performances. He is absolutely the centre of that, you know. He's one of the most associated people with it, and just absolutely brilliant. There's nobody else that does what he does.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

No, completely, and he he as I say, he was in 26 out of the 31, and that is the most of any of that kind of stock of actors that yeah, he was in the most of them. But also I was sort of a bit surprised that he was only in 26 out of 31 because I can't really think of the five that he wasn't in.

SPEAKER_03 5:25

No, I can't think of them off the top of my head, but I did I did know that he wasn't in absolutely everyone because there are some ropey ones. But um I think he did quite a lot of the ropey ones as well. Yeah. Um yes, so it I think you miss him when he's not in it.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 5:41

And yeah, there those those those movies were built around particular people. So yeah, Sid James is the other one who's in a lot, but he there are the one ones that I can think of that they do without him that work really, really well. But I think you feel this gulf when Kenneth Williams is not around, actually.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Definitely.

SPEAKER_03 6:00

So that's one thing that I hope we talk a lot about today that I know about him. I also know I associate him with Round the Horn, which was a radio show. And I I know that they did some characters called Julian and Sandy.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

They did.

SPEAKER_03 6:19

So I hope we talk about those uh characters and their influence in the world of camp at some point.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

So yeah, I have a little bit on Julian and Sandy. It's because we've sort of because we watch visual clips.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

Yes, it's difficult.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

I didn't go too far down the radio route, but I think it's really important to note that when Julian and Sandy came along, they were two characters in sketches, they were very camp, they were very flamboyant, out gay men. And this was at a time when homosexuality was still illegal in the UK.

SPEAKER_03 6:58

Yes, just got to take a moment to sort of consider that because I don't think most people living today can imagine what effect that you know, obviously there are other countries where they have laws like that now, but like in in our society, like I don't know if people can imagine what that would be like.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

And they were also portrayed as happy.

SPEAKER_03 7:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Which was something that came up that other kind of portrayals of homosexuality had always lent more into the tragedy.

SPEAKER_04 7:34

Mmm.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Whereas Julian and Sandy were very happy with who they are and what they were about.

SPEAKER_03 7:40

That's really interesting, because yeah, even in our lifetimes, quite often the gay characters are yeah, suffering with stuff, they're kind of like tropes of you know, uh the bad things that are happening in their life, they're not allowed to just be enjoying themselves. I think that yeah, that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

So he was born on the 22nd of February 1926. Okay. So he would have been a hundred years old this year at the time of recording. After his schooling, he got an apprenticeship as uh a map maker.

SPEAKER_03 8:14

How this this is this is a different world, isn't it? Because like who just gets an apprenticeship as a map maker? That yeah, okay, awesome.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

And he was called up to the army in 1944 while the war was still going on, in which he pretty much carried on doing that same role. He was working within um maps and stuff. I don't mean to sound ignorant, but I don't know a lot about the army.

SPEAKER_03 8:42

He's working in cartography.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Cartography, yes. Maps and stuff. When the war finished, he didn't go back straight away to his civilian life.

SPEAKER_03 8:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

He transferred to the Combined Services Entertainment Unit, which was essentially a touring group of performers that would go round entertaining the British troops. So they were uh they were army employed, but the army would send them round to entertain troops, and so he did quite a lot of travel with them and That's great.

SPEAKER_03 9:14

Yeah. It's really like again, things we can't imagine. It's like a little troop of you know Well, it still exists. Well, I think is it uh I have any entertainers come out of there recently?

SPEAKER_00 9:26

I don't know. Um I think it exists in a different form.

SPEAKER_03 9:30

I was gonna say.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, other contemporaries of his that were part of it were Benny Hill started. Yeah. Yeah. And Stanley Baxter.

SPEAKER_03 9:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Who was in there with Kenneth Williams and they were sort of lifelong friends.

SPEAKER_03 9:45

This is what I mean. You just imagine you're just in the army and just Kenneth Williams and Stanley Baxter turn up. If people don't know Stanley Baxter, I think he got more known for impressions.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

I I don't really know Stanley Baxter, to be honest.

SPEAKER_03 9:57

I always find him to have quite a difficult face to look at.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

I'm assuming he's long dead now and he won't be upset by that. Um quite yeah, just like a real dominant face on the screen.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

I I can't picture him, and maybe that's for the best. Um so on his return to the UK after the CSE, he entered the acting profession in various rep companies. Now rep is it it does still exist, but it was a system where you would be employed as an actor and you'd basically rehearse and put on a different play every week.

SPEAKER_03 10:35

Yeah, it doesn't exist on that sort of scale that it did all the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

And that's basically where he sort of cut his teeth, let did his that's pretty much how actors kind of trained in those days. They would go off and just actually do it.

SPEAKER_03 10:49

Yes, uh and over and over. Yes. So he presumably is doing like comic roles, but also maybe some serious.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

No, he was mostly doing serious roles. Mostly serious. Mostly serious. He wanted to be a serious actor, and it was actually something that bothered him that he was kind of never taken very seriously as a serious actor.

SPEAKER_03 11:09

That's fascinating, isn't it? Because I think, you know, I probably assumed that he'd you know done some serious bits along the way, but not that that was really what he was hoping to do.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

It's what he wanted to do, and then he was spotted by a radio producer who brought him onto Hancock's Half Hour, which was I mean it was sort of a benchmark radio show, really. It's still something that I think in terms of comedy is looked up to.

SPEAKER_03 11:36

Yeah, I think I think people still talk about Hancock's Half Hour, and Tony Hancock became a huge star. And yeah, everybody associated with that.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Yeah, and Kenneth Williams kind of became the silly voice man. Right. He was very versatile vocally, um, played a lot of different characters, which was something that Hancock eventually moved away from.

SPEAKER_03 12:02

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

Which is when he then went to Round the Horn and subsequently Beyond Ark Hen, which were radio programmes built around Kenneth Horn.

SPEAKER_03 12:11

Yes. I don't know a lot about Kenneth Horn, to be honest. Round the Horn though, Julian and Sandy came out of that app.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 12:19

And that is probably one of the things I most associate with it. Um because Julian and Sandy they used the language Polari. Yes. Which am I jumping the gun if I uh No. I'm excited to talk about because I've always thought this was fascinating. That the this is a time when, as we say, homosexuality is criminalised and you can't live openly. So Polari, which had you know sort of existed, is actually like really a useful way for gay men to communicate and identify each other. Like it's it's got a genuine use, and I think by the time that um it's on Round the Horn, it becomes almost too known about in the same way as um Cockney rhyming slang, right? Cockney rhyming slang was to evade the police, but then once everybody knows it, it's no good anymore.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Yeah, uh what sort of happened with Pilari is Julian and Sandy kind of gave it a bit of a resurgence to begin with, yeah. And then subsequently it became a little bit too known.

SPEAKER_03 13:22

Mmm, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

But it was also something that allowed them to get a lot past the BBC censors.

SPEAKER_03 13:31

Oh, of course.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Because they had no idea what they were talking about.

SPEAKER_03 13:36

What they were saying.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

The example given was one of the characters saying, I met him in a cottage.

SPEAKER_03 13:42

Mmm.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

And the you know, the BBC just thought it was a nice Just a cottage. Just a cottage, but yeah, in Pilari that means a public bathroom for some George Michael activities.

SPEAKER_03 13:56

Okay. I think like it's difficult to talk about, but like this this was really this is part of you know, it's these people's existence under this law. You know, this is how they're meeting each other and how they're, you know, able to, you know, express sexuality or whatever. But yeah, I find Polaris really fascinating because it's like I don't know, I suppose you have a similar thing now in that like gay communities have certain like phrases that identify and mark you out as part of a group, you know?

SPEAKER_00 14:35

It sort of came out a lot of those phrases came out of the ballroom culture which was sort of underground New York contests, I guess, where various different houses would compete in different I mean, this is almost a whole different podcast in itself. Yeah, yeah, we could do a whole thing on that. So they would compete for prizes, and there were a lot of these phrases that entered into the kind of gay lexicon, I guess. And then we're sort of almost seeing the same thing as Julian and Sandy with RuPaul's Drag Race popularizing all of these phrases to the point that kids are walking around now going Slay.

SPEAKER_03 15:18

Yes, yeah, yeah, they are. Yeah. And presumably from this, you know, people are going around and saying, you know, Omi Pollone or whatever it is, you know, Fantabulosa. Do you know any Pilori?

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Bonner, I know Bonner.

SPEAKER_03 15:30

Bonner, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Yeah, which means good, I think. It it is something I want to know more about.

SPEAKER_03 15:36

I think it's one of those things it's like it it it's obviously not in usage, but uh a couple of the phrases may have like transferred over, but it's just so fascinating. It's just so fascinating that um it's like the it's like a whole language with this very specific usage of a particular people and culture, and yeah, I think it's just really interesting. Do you think it's camp to invent your own language?

SPEAKER_00 16:04

I yes. It is a bit yes, I think it I don't know, it's difficult because we can look at it now and say it leans into excess.

SPEAKER_04 16:13

Mmm.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

But at the time it had a very practical use. I think it's very easy to look back on it and go, it's camp.

SPEAKER_03 16:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

But actually it was a necessity rather than an excess. So it probably it feels camp now.

SPEAKER_03 16:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

But I don't think that was ever the intention.

SPEAKER_03 16:34

No, well that's interesting. But then you look at some of the fa phrases like Fantabulosa is from that, isn't it? Yes. And that does seem a bit excessive. So I I'm I'm putting a pin in that, I haven't decided what I think about whether it's camp. I think it's part of camp history, though, that's what we're on.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_03 16:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

So Kenneth Williams continued to appear in theatre, though he found it somewhat frustrating. So this week I've read the Kenneth Williams diaries. All 800 pages of them.

SPEAKER_03 17:05

Goodness me.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 17:06

Now they're quite notorious, his diaries.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Yes. So they weren't published until after his death.

SPEAKER_03 17:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

And I think what's really interesting about reading a diary as opposed to a memoir.

SPEAKER_04 17:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

Is that as you're writing it, you're not necessarily writing it with the idea of an audience consuming it.

SPEAKER_03 17:27

No, you're not editorialising in the same way.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Because he did release a memoir.

SPEAKER_03 17:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

But actually, I thought the diaries would would give a more accurate picture of sort of who he was. Yeah. And a lot of the time when he was in theatre, he would go into it saying, you know, the first few days of rehearsals, this is the best job I've ever had. I absolutely adore this company, I love doing it. And then after it had been open about two weeks, he'd be saying, I cannot wait to get out of this theatre. It is the worst decision I ever made, saying yes to being in this play. So I think he had a difficult relationship with the the theatre.

SPEAKER_03 18:10

That's fascinating to me because now you you have been in things.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Yes, I've been in things.

SPEAKER_03 18:17

You've done you've done this.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 18:19

Does that mirror your uh like progression through the a run? Because to me, when I turn up at rehearsals, I always think this is a disaster. This will never work. That's my first like thing that I go through. I don't think I've ever had a two-week run um of anything. But I mean I generally I start at the worst place, and then by the time that it's on, I'm at a happy place.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

I think for me I start optimistically. And I mean I I never take for granted the fact that I'm in work when I'm doing performance work.

SPEAKER_04 18:58

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

But there does come a point sometimes in a slightly longer run. And when I say slightly longer run, I think the most I've ever done is like five weeks. We're not talking about a year-long West End contract, which is kind of what he's more talking about.

SPEAKER_02 19:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

But there sort of becomes a point where it kind of clicks and it becomes the thing that you do, and I don't I don't mean to say that it becomes a laborious job, but you sort of sit quite comfortably in it, I think.

SPEAKER_03 19:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

For him, I think he didn't know how to sit comfortably.

SPEAKER_03 19:38

That's really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

There's a lot that's kind of came out about him after his death when the diaries were published, because on the surface he seemed like quite a popular figure in the entertainment industry with a lot of friends, and he was very happy and jolly and would always turn up and tell a funny story. But there was a very there was a very depressed person behind that facade.

SPEAKER_03 20:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

He was plagued by loneliness and often resented his own sexuality and flamboyance. He very often wrote in the diary, Oh, I went and did this thing, and oh I was so over the top, it was it was awful of me, and things like that. He he was certainly at odds with the more flamboyant parts of his character, but I think equally we've got to remember that he grew up in a time where he was being told that that character was wrong.

SPEAKER_03 20:36

It's really hard, isn't it? But that actually who he is is always coming to the fore, but yes, the time in which he's been raised and what he's been raised to believe is the correct way of being, acting, whatever, is always making him feel guilt or shame or whatever about how he how he wants to be, how he sort of naturally is. It's it's really sad, and I think yeah, I've heard quite a lot about the diaries and about that. It's a shame because I think uh the diaries probably represent the thoughts that he had nowhere else to go, and I'm sure even though he had this depressed side of him, uh it wasn't a total facade, the kind of like you know, enjoying other people's company. It's just that you it's hard when you've got so much like darkness inside that has nowhere el else to go.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 21:32

It's very it it's it is very sad, and I think people really don't like to think that he had that because he made everybody laugh, you know. That was like the main thing he became associated with.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Absolutely. He started appearing in the carry-on films in 1958.

SPEAKER_03 21:48

That's early, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

All the way through to 1978. And apart from the ones that he missed, they were churning out one, sometimes two. A year carry-on films. They were made to a budget, quite a strict budget. Right, yes. And they were filmed very quickly. A lot of the carry-on stars later in life had a lot of money issues because actually they weren't paid as well as everybody sort of seemed to think they would be paid being in these, for the most part, very successful films.

SPEAKER_03 22:26

Yeah, well, so being produced very, very cheaply, which I think included what people were paid, the you know, the actual stars of them. And then they're like a generational, you know, success. So they're not only, you know, doing well when they're released, they continue to have this life on and on and on, and that doesn't necessarily flow back to the people that it should.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

No. So Kenneth Williams somewhat looked down on the carry-ons and their style of humour. I think he w wanted them to be a little more sophisticated than certainly they became.

SPEAKER_03 23:03

Yeah. I can understand that.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Although he somewhat looked down on them a bit, he did always speak about them with fondness. And I think he was aware that they kept him in work a lot of the time. And he was he certainly grateful for the work, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 23:22

Yes, we're all grateful for jobs, we're grateful to be paid.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Anything in the arts. You said you didn't think I was gonna be able to shock you this week.

SPEAKER_03 23:31

Okay, yeah, I did.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

Kenneth Williams was once denied a visa to the USA.

SPEAKER_03 23:37

I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Because Scotland Yard believed that he may have poisoned his father.

SPEAKER_03 23:44

Oh I really spoke too soon.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Oh, you did. So the coroner eventually ruled accidental death.

SPEAKER_03 23:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

But his father died after drinking carbon tetrachloride, which is a poison, from a cough syrup bottle.

SPEAKER_03 24:04

Oh my god, are you telling me that he killed his dad?

SPEAKER_00 24:08

I'm I'm not telling you that. This is all alleged. I mean it's not even really alleged because the coroner did determine that it was accidental death, but there was certainly But why was it in there? I can't answer that.

SPEAKER_03 24:23

What? What? Oh my why do I sort of think this is terrible to say? This is a terrible thing to say. Okay. Why do I think it's more iconic if he did murder his dad?

SPEAKER_00 24:37

The diaries don't reference any of this sort of aspect of his father's death. Um Do you know what?

SPEAKER_03 24:44

If I bumped someone off, I wouldn't write it down either.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

No, but I like I it there is not even any reference to the fact that there may have been an investigation. Yeah, that's more suspicious to me. It's completely absent. But yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:01

I definitely spoke too soon when I said I wouldn't be shocked. I yeah, I do sort of um wow, okay. Obviously, it's all alleged.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

Uh completely. And as I say, the coroner determined accidental death.

SPEAKER_03 25:20

You keep saying it. Because I have to legally in my mind, I keep thinking, I kind of could see it. I understand he had a difficult relationship with his dad.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

He did, yes. His dad thought that the theatre was a breeding ground for effeminacy. Right. And was quite I think he was a Methodist.

SPEAKER_03 25:44

Which you're allowed to be a Methodist, but just be a tolerant one, you know.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

I mean, certainly at that time, again, homosexuality was illegal, so it wasn't even yes It wasn't uncommon for that attitude to Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:58

I okay, I I've got all the facts that I need.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

So in his later years he lived opposite his mother. They lived in opp opposite flats.

SPEAKER_03 26:10

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

And he became somewhat dissatisfied with his kind of de facto role as carer, he kind of fell into the role of looking after her. He still adored her.

SPEAKER_03 26:23

Right, so he didn't bump her off as well.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

And he often described her as his only constant.

SPEAKER_03 26:31

Oh, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

In 1988, he died of an overdose, but the coroner recorded an open verdict because they were unable to establish if it was deliberate or accidental.

SPEAKER_03 26:44

It feels like these coroners don't like to make up their minds.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

I mean, uh it is a tricky one because the last thing that he wrote in his diary was, Oh, what's the bloody point?

SPEAKER_03 26:53

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

And so, yeah, then after that his diaries were published, and we kind of got a sort of a fuller impression of the man.

SPEAKER_03 27:03

Well, I mean, I thought I had quite a full impression, and I've got some, you know.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Questions.

SPEAKER_03 27:08

I've got questions, but I'm still on his side.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

We're going back in time a bit now, but we've kind of got our first instance of one of our camp icons giving a definition of what camp is.

SPEAKER_03 27:21

Oh, this is a milestone moment.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Yes. There is a word in this that I have replaced because the word that is used in the quote We don't use anymore. We don't use anymore.

SPEAKER_03 27:33

Fine.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

3rd of April 1968. Peter Haig asked me for a definition of camp. I said to some it means that which is fundamentally frivolous. To others, the Baroque as opposed to the puritanical, and to others, a load of gays.

SPEAKER_03 27:52

Right. Okay. But I I think that's really useful. I really, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

To some it means fundamentally frivolous.

SPEAKER_03 28:04

Yes. Now that's interesting because frivolous I totally get. Yes. We talk about frivolous all the time. Feather bowers and you know, uh frills and sequins seem frivolous. Fundamentally frivolous, I feel like is a new level of frivolous. It's like it's where frivolous is essential to it, you know?

SPEAKER_00 28:24

It's almost like it's frivolous without much else. It's got to be so ridiculous and extravagant, yeah, that you can't even find a sort of serious centre to it.

SPEAKER_03 28:39

Take away the frivolous and find the real stuff underneath. Frivolous goes all the way through. Yeah. What was the next bit? The next bitch.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

The next bit was the Baroque as opposed to the Puritanical, which I think feeds into the excess that we've spoken about.

SPEAKER_03 28:54

Baroque is all about Yeah, the aesthetic is is over the tone and yeah, lots of details and yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's for that. And the puritanical is about having less and minimalism, and we don't want that.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

No. I I find the last bit really interesting. The fact that he thinks camp is a load of gays.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Because the camp that we've looked at, whilst there is certainly an element of the homosexual, they are never the centrepiece.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

Interesting. So yeah, what we we've done so far is mostly women.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

With all women, so women.

SPEAKER_03 29:40

Mostly straight, we don't know all of their business.

SPEAKER_00 29:43

No.

SPEAKER_03 29:44

But but it's it's not a gay man at the centre or gay person at the centre, but it caters to the gay gays. Can we use that as a phrase?

SPEAKER_00 29:57

The gay gays.

SPEAKER_03 29:58

The gay gays.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

I why not? It's better than what was written in his diary.

SPEAKER_03 30:04

But he's saying that the gays should be the camp. Or it can be.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

I think and this is another interesting element that we've sort of not looked at before. I think it's camp versus performative camp. Because what he's discussing is, you know, a load of gay people in a bar having, I guess what we'd now call a bit of banter and throwing around jokes and insults and things like that, whereas performative camp is sort of what we've always looked at, which I think is different actually.

SPEAKER_03 30:47

Well, it's interesting from a man who is known for being effeminate and it and grapples with that. And his sexuality is fundamental to him, but and it but it also it kind of it feels like if he had the choice he would he would hide it, but it kind of spills out inflamboyance and acting camp and he he's sort of grappling with that fact that yeah, the the um effeminate way that he that he sort of naturally is kind of gives him away as being part of the gay community, and so being gay and being camp are kind of inextricably linked for him, which isn't something that we've necessarily discussed before, and it's not necessarily that if you are a gay man you are camp, because there are lots that aren't, but there's definitely something where the the kind of flamboyance of like some of his some of some of hi his essence, whoever he is, is is is is tied in with his sexuality, but it is camp as well.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

I think in the period that we're discussing campness was the acceptable face of homosexuality.

SPEAKER_03 32:11

Okay, or okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

Because you're looking at your Kenneth Williams, your Charles Hawthry, Larry Grayson, Mr. Humphreys, in I Being Sound, Frankie Howard. Yeah. They are the gay men that are on your screens that you are seeing.

SPEAKER_03 32:29

That are identifiable.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

That are identifiable and there is no room for nuance. In order to be acceptably homosexual in the public eye, you've got to take it to this place of extremes.

SPEAKER_03 32:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

And actually be a l almost asexual with it.

SPEAKER_03 32:57

Yes. Yeah, that's the other side, is that you can't actually explicitly be homosexual.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:03

That side of things has to be hidden. It's just this part, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

Yes, I mean you don't you haven't got in Are You Being Served, Mr. Humphrey. You've got him going, I'm free, but not going, oh, you'll never guess what I got up to last night.

SPEAKER_03 33:19

Um Well he yeah, that's the thing. He he does the little double entendres, but they're never directly about that. They're about sex more generally. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

So speaking of double entendres, I think it's time we dived into some classic Kenneth Williams clips.

SPEAKER_03 33:40

I've been looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

So the our first clip today is from 1960. It's from a film called Make Mine Mink.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

And this is the point where I remind our listeners that all of the videos that we're gonna watch today, there will be links to them in the description of the episode. You can watch along with us. We always leave a little gap with a jaunty little sound effect to tell you that it's time to go and watch them. You could take the opportunity now if you wish to go and watch all of them and then listen to what we've got to say about them. Or you can absolutely just not watch any of them and listen to what we've got to say and just try and picture it for yourselves, which in some ways might be worse. It might be better. Give it a bit better. So here we go, diving into Kenneth Williams in the film Make Mine Mink.

SPEAKER_02 34:39

Matron, let me explain.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

So that was Kenneth Williams in the film Make Mine Mink.

SPEAKER_03 34:44

It's wonderful to see him so young, actually, because I've sort of I think I've got the picture of him a bit older than this. And he's do he's he's got that recognisable voice, but it's more, I don't know, more grounded in reality.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

Yes, and I think that's one of the things that also surprised me about those early carry-on films is that he in many ways in those is kind of almost a voice of reason.

SPEAKER_03 35:12

Yes, yeah, I know what you're saying, yeah. Because in this he's uh so the the lady that comes in, he's he calls her Aunt B.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

Yes. Um I mean, let's talk about Aunt B for a moment because she's she's oozing camp. She's an older lady who speaks in a very particular way.

SPEAKER_03 35:35

Yes. Do you want to do it?

SPEAKER_00 35:37

Well I've come here to I might cut that. She's almost this is released in 1960. She's sort of got a voice that's almost Edwardian.

SPEAKER_03 35:53

She's trying to be prim and proper.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 35:56

But she's she's not quite getting away with it. She's just Well, I'm trying to tell her, you know, sell my coat. Um but actually she, you know, she's on a bit of a But she's stolen the coat.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

She's stolen the coat and she's trying to sell it onto Kenneth Williams.

SPEAKER_03 36:12

Oh, if that is her nephew. Is Aunt B just a thing like she's just an aunt to the community, or are they actually supposed to be related? Because it doesn't seem like would you try and sell a stolen coat to a family member?

SPEAKER_00 36:27

Well, I don't think she initially wants to sell it to him because she tries to escape and he tells her that the doors are locked.

SPEAKER_03 36:34

The escape attempt is my favourite part because she drops the pretence of being a nice prim and proper lady, throws the coat down and scrabbles at this door.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Yeah, I don't know I don't know anyone that's ever unlocked a door by scrabbling at this point.

SPEAKER_03 36:51

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

It's And he's not having any any of it. He knows that she's up to something, and we start to see the tone of his voice go to that place that we recognise. Well, what have you all been up to?

unknown 37:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

You're naughty little thing.

SPEAKER_03 37:12

He yes, he adopts this air of it's I I might say supercilious, which I don't generally employ as a as a word, but it he's enjoying her um panic.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 37:27

And he's giving us that he he does literally give us a wink, but he's giving us a wink with his voice as well. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 37:35

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 37:36

He he goes into that.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

There's something knowing about the tone of that voice.

SPEAKER_03 37:40

Mm-mm. And I enjoy that kind of like uh him putting himself above her, he knows that she's desperate, but in a kind of cheeky way that is he's having fun with the situation.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

100%. And in this time period as well, there's not because she is an older person, this is still kind of at a point where you respect your elders and you don't you don't kind of talk down to them and don't talk down to your auntie. No, and you you don't play with those power dynamics, but he is taking full advantage of her her desperation.

SPEAKER_03 38:22

Yes. She wants some money for this stolen coat.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

Yes, which she's she says she's going to give to charity.

SPEAKER_03 38:29

Which is an obvious lie. I I don't know the film well enough to Well, I haven't watched it, but I don't believe it for a second. She's she's on the make, isn't she?

SPEAKER_00 38:37

She's On the make.

SPEAKER_03 38:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He uses a particular slang there. He says have a deco when he wants to have a look at it. Did you pick up on that?

SPEAKER_00 38:46

No, I didn't.

SPEAKER_03 38:47

And I think that's I don't I don't think we use that anymore, but I think he says have a deco because he wants to have a look at it. And he's there's definitely an interesting thing, because we talked about Pilari, there's definitely an interesting thing where he can employ slang from the time, but he has a kind of quite upper class pronunciation, but he throws in some slang where it's just it's just fabulous to listen to.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

His voice has a rhythm to it as well that we will see more of.

SPEAKER_03 39:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

And it's sort of characterised for me by a noise.

SPEAKER_03 39:24

It's the nasally, the nasally, oh, it's like mmm. See, if if we had to have a voice of camp, I think we would choose Kenneth Williams. Maybe not a singing voice, but a you know, a a spoken voice of camp.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

A spoken voice of camp, yes. So we've got the chaise long, the sea lions on it.

SPEAKER_03 39:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

And the sea lines going.

SPEAKER_03 39:51

If people haven't listened to the other episodes, they may be confused. But yes, we're building a picture of camp.

SPEAKER_00 39:57

Yes. We decided the camp is furniture item was a chaise long, the camp's animal is a sea lion, and now we have the voice of camp.

SPEAKER_03 40:06

The voice of camp.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

Kenneth Williams.

SPEAKER_03 40:08

Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 40:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 40:10

Dumb.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

Why do we think this is camp?

SPEAKER_03 40:12

It's interesting, isn't it? Because I think it is very different to other things that we've watched.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_03 40:18

We've watched a lot of sparkly, you know, song and dance numbers, that sort of thing. And this is a different this is a much more a real situation. Or not, you know, necessarily a real real situation, but a potentially real situation. And it's the way they kind of play with each other, I guess. Is that for is that for you?

SPEAKER_00 40:37

I think so, yeah. It's it's power play. And it's also the fact that we know he was a gay man adds another layer to it somewhere along the way.

SPEAKER_03 40:52

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

Because I think a different actor in this same scene would give a very different well, obviously they would give a different performance, but I feel like it could be a different dynamic. A different dynamic and a different feeling that you get from it.

SPEAKER_03 41:13

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

So if we take like one of his contemporaries, for example, and you put Sid James in this scene, I don't think it's a camp scene anymore.

SPEAKER_03 41:21

No, I agree. But I'm having trouble verbalising why that is.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

I know what you mean.

SPEAKER_03 41:30

But yes. But the thing is, camp and like gay men are inextricably linked. It's always, you know, come uh even though you can have camp without, yes, there's an inextricable link there.

SPEAKER_00 41:46

There is an inextricable link there, but I camp is for everyone.

SPEAKER_03 41:52

Oh, camp is for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 41:53

The very fact that you're here.

SPEAKER_03 41:54

Yeah, I'm allowed to be on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

Um yeah, I'm struggling to articulate it too.

SPEAKER_03 42:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:02

What a good job. We're not on an audio format where language is all we have.

SPEAKER_03 42:07

Give us another clip and we'll see if we do better with that one.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

Okay, let's move up. We are diving straight into a carry-on now.

SPEAKER_03 42:14

Yay!

SPEAKER_00 42:15

We're moving to 1964, we are moving to carry-on Clio. Oh. And this, I think for me, is one of his absolute defining moments.

SPEAKER_02 42:25

Excellent. Move through that. Let me explain. It's so good.

SPEAKER_00 42:30

Carry on Cleo is up there with one of my favourites.

SPEAKER_03 42:34

Yes, it's a great one. It's great. And actually, I when I was thinking about Camp, it isn't just him that is Camp in this.

SPEAKER_00 42:43

No, not at all.

SPEAKER_03 42:44

Everything is Camp about.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

Everything is camp.

SPEAKER_03 42:47

And I think seeing a historical story done in a ridiculous way, because you've got all these references to the actual history, and usually when we watch anything historical, it's very po-faced and serious. Yes. And so them doing it in this absurd way with lots of little in-jokes towards the history that you'll know is absolutely great, and it is camp.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

It's brilliant, and the luxury that they had on this one is that uh they were filming it, I think they filming it around the same time as the Elizabeth Taylor, Richard Burton, Cleopatra film.

SPEAKER_03 43:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 43:23

And what happened with that is they were filming it in the UK and then they upped and relocated. But they left behind all of the sets and the costumes. Right. So they are filming it on sets that were originally intended for the for this grand sweeping historical. That's why it looks so good.

SPEAKER_03 43:43

Yes. Yeah. Amazing. This is a great clip. This is a great moment. One of the all time carry on moments.

SPEAKER_00 43:51

And one of the all time greatest comedy lines, I think. Yes, yeah. In for me! In for me! Oh, they've all got it infamy.

SPEAKER_03 44:00

It's it's a perfect line.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 44:03

And very well delivered. Um well done for the colour.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

He did it much better than I did.

SPEAKER_03 44:08

But you gave it the right the right thing because he does that. He does the total commitment to the two infamies and then the slight Kenneth Williams spin on the last bit.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 44:20

To let us know that it's a joke and we should laugh.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

I think this helps me in my articulation of his camp to some degree. Right. And it's that there is no economy in the way that he acts.

SPEAKER_03 44:36

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

His face is always at work. His delivery is always there's always just a little bit extra.

SPEAKER_03 44:49

Put a bit more on it.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

A little bit more on it. There's I don't want to say that there's no subtlety to his acting, because I think actually sometimes, as ridiculous as this is going to sound, you can be subtle in your excess.

SPEAKER_03 45:03

Yes, no, I understand.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Because you're knowing when to pull those big faces and you're knowing when to change those big faces. I I guess I guess what I'm describing really is comedy timing.

SPEAKER_03 45:18

It is it is timing, but it's also a commitment to the bit and stuff. You know, we open this scene, he he is Caesar, and he's in this um, you know, thing that they carry, the you know, his men carry him around in, and he's all all of a dither, like all his, you know, robes are all out of place. So as soon as you see him, this great figure of Caesar is all, you know, in the flap about his robes aren't straight and where are we going and what we do. He he gives you so much performance is great.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:51

But it I I think I think what you're saying is right, is it it was to say he has no subtlety is not right because he is judging the performance really well. It's just that he gives a lot, and that this is a a place w to go to give a big performance.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

Yes, absolutely, and he it's the juxtaposition of this big historical figure who is quite imposing with the way that actually he's playing him. I mean, his first entrance in this film there is a narrator giving this very overblown description of Caesar. Oh yeah, and then we go into him into his tent and he's got his feet in a footbath and he starts sneezing because the English weather's so bad and he's got a cold. And he sort of plays this again, it comes back to this sort of asexual figure who, although later on they're trying to pair him off with Amanda Barry as Cleopatra, there's no image in your head that they're ever actually gonna get it on.

SPEAKER_03 47:02

Absolutely no chance. No. No, I think you're correct. The idea is really in a lot of these that sex is repellent to him.

SPEAKER_01 47:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 47:12

Um, and so it's funny any time he's put into this situation of um you know him being with a woman, because I guess we're we're at a level here where it's assumed that any red-blooded male would want automatically to have uh sex with a pretty lady. So he's he's he's giving the opposite. He's like, yeah, you can't even picture it. It's quite clear there's no interest in these women. But I just I just like to you know go through some of the camp things that we have, other than Kenneth in this uh please do um clip because um his bodyguard uh is going to kill him. Bilius, yeah, um, and as he pulls out his sword from its whatever sheath, thank you. Of course. He says, Um, what are you doing with your thing?

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:16

Which is a funny way to refer to a sword.

SPEAKER_00 48:18

It's just Yeah, no one would actually say that.

SPEAKER_03 48:20

No, no, I don't think no, it it it's giving penis. I think that's how the kids say it. Um Then they're visiting the Vestal Virgins who have been infiltrated by two of our stars. So at the kind of window that they have into the Vestal Virgins sanctum, uh Kenneth Connor appears, who is uh a man who doesn't look like a virgin. Uh or or well, that's not true. He doesn't look like a Vestal Virgin. No.

SPEAKER_00 48:55

Um He's sort of in drag.

SPEAKER_03 48:58

Yes. So there's a there's a mix-up on whether he's a Vestal Virgin or a eunuch.

SPEAKER_00 49:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 49:04

That's camp to me.

SPEAKER_00 49:05

Yes, because I mean the sac the Vestal Virgins were a like a sacred order that was very much women only.

SPEAKER_03 49:12

And thought of as beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

Yes. And Kenneth Connor pops up and says, No no, I'm a eunuch. In a little bit of a Monty Python voice.

SPEAKER_03 49:23

Yes, definitely, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:24

It's not what one would necessarily go straight to when one thinks of a pretty feminine voice.

SPEAKER_03 49:32

No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. Um, yes, and he says, um virgins are off tonight. Which is funny because it's like at the chip shop window. It's good. Like that, good joke. I enjoy all their little c uh dresses, they've got little togas, so And it's bright and bold and excessive. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 49:53

Yeah. We'll move on. Okay. We're going to 1970 now, I believe.

SPEAKER_03 50:01

Alright.

SPEAKER_00 50:03

And we're going to a clip from the Kenneth Williams Show. Which was sort of a sketch show that he put together.

SPEAKER_03 50:12

Don't know it, okay.

SPEAKER_00 50:13

I think only one episode of it survives. I think there's only one episode left of it kicking around, which is this clip comes from. So this is Kenneth Williams in the Kenneth Williams show.

SPEAKER_02 50:25

Let me explain.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

So that was from the Kenneth Williams show. It was actually 1974, not 1970. Okay. And that doesn't improve it. No. I as a sketch. Yeah. I think there's some problems with it.

SPEAKER_03 50:41

Do you enjoy this? Um No. It's so weird. This is weird, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 50:50

It is odd. It's. I believe that he was. He didn't write it all individually. He had, I think, a co-writer that he wrote most of it with. And I think it's an example of him enjoying wordplay and things like that.

SPEAKER_03 51:09

Do you think he's having a good time doing this? Because knowing that he sort of disparaged the carry-on films.

SPEAKER_01 51:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 51:16

Then when you see this, you think, is this is this him having a good time doing what he wanted to do, or is this sort of like the best that he could do now that he had that public persona? Because we do get right, so listen, listen, listen. Okay. This is a sketch in a courtroom. He's the judge.

SPEAKER_01 51:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 51:37

It's in rhyme. For some reason.

SPEAKER_00 51:41

Yeah, and I can't I can't work that out.

SPEAKER_03 51:44

No.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

It's not only in rhyme, there's also a a chorus or a refrain.

SPEAKER_03 51:49

It's almost a song, but it's not quite.

SPEAKER_00 51:52

No, where the jury stand up and sort of sing a chorus.

SPEAKER_03 51:57

They say, give us another one or something. Sing us another one. He we do get a very, very clean Stop Missin About.

SPEAKER_00 52:05

Oh, Stop Missing About.

SPEAKER_03 52:07

Uh which is like a a catchphrase of his.

SPEAKER_00 52:10

From his radio days.

SPEAKER_03 52:11

Yes, that's kind of followed him through from then. So that's why I say it feels like almost he's having to play that.

SPEAKER_00 52:21

It's a parade of Dublin Tendre.

SPEAKER_03 52:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 52:25

It's about a man that has exposed himself at the races. I mean, I m I may they don't treat it with quite the same um seriousness that we perhaps would now.

SPEAKER_03 52:40

No, when you when you put it like that, it sounds like a more serious sketch than it is. What it is is total nonsense.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

It's just absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 52:49

Yeah. It's uh it's got a few, I don't know, uh other performers in there.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

One of which is Anna Karen.

SPEAKER_03 52:58

Anna Karen from On the Buses. Yes. I recognise a couple of the other guys, although I don't know their names, but I think they were stalwarts on TV in the um seventies or eighties. It's yeah, so they chip in with their bits of the court case.

SPEAKER_00 53:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 53:13

I guess.

SPEAKER_00 53:14

I I think I think one of the reasons that I chose this is because it is camp. Oh, absolutely. But that doesn't that Camp's not always good. It can't always it can't save it. We're getting a really camp performance from Kenneth Williams. But it doesn't it doesn't make the sketch any easier to take.

SPEAKER_03 53:36

It's very strange. I think the the rhyming and the the song elements feel really odd.

SPEAKER_00 53:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 53:44

It's it's not qu none of it is really resolved into anything.

SPEAKER_00 53:48

It's sort of almost it's almost like a music hall relic.

SPEAKER_03 53:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:54

It feels like it could be a music hall number being performed in a time and on a medium where it doesn't make any sense anymore.

SPEAKER_03 54:07

I do wonder with this whether it has dated worse than some of the other things we've watched. I don't know whether it would have been a huge hit even when it first went out, but maybe he conceived of it as an idea even earlier than that. But there's something that sort of strikes me because he drops into that stop missing about voice that is that is in there that is about class, because a judge should be very, very upper class and proper.

SPEAKER_00 54:37

And straight laced.

SPEAKER_03 54:38

Yes, and he Kenneth Williams actually has quite a middle class voice, but he drops into that silly kind of, you know, more slangy voice that's stopped listening about, and he uses that a lot for the judge.

SPEAKER_00 54:52

So I think he's playing against the Well it's the juxtaposition because he does go very severe and serious with it sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 55:00

Yes, he brings it back and then yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:02

And it's almost for the punch lines, I'm gonna put that in inverted commas, he kind of drops to a more silly, almost smarmy voice. And it's the juxtaposition between the very serious judge that starts off like this and then starts going, Oh ducky, tell us all about it.

SPEAKER_03 55:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:23

It's uh it's definitely a vocal camp.

SPEAKER_03 55:27

Vocal camp.

SPEAKER_00 55:28

Vocal camp.

SPEAKER_03 55:29

How interesting this is But it's sort of almost This week we're focusing on vocal camp, which is a thing that we just made up. Just made that up.

SPEAKER_00 55:42

But it's almost taking on the certainly at the time stereotypical voice of a an acceptable camp gay man.

SPEAKER_03 55:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 55:55

Because it's a very similar voice to that, again, I'll bring them up again, Larry Grayson, Frankie Howard. They all sort of lean into a particular voice.

SPEAKER_03 56:08

Yes. And I wonder if the joke here is that automatically a judge doing that is not what people expect. Yes. And it's just uh that for some reason they got the jury to stand up and sing occasionally. It's I think it's quite an odd sketch. I hope people enjoy it more than I did.

SPEAKER_00 56:30

But um I don't know that they will.

SPEAKER_03 56:33

But it's definitely camp. I'm not it's I'm not arguing that bit. It's just it's just very odd, and I'm not sure it really works.

SPEAKER_00 56:40

No, and going back to the sort of idea of music hall, it's sort of almost like it should have been a song for one person to narrate all of the parts.

SPEAKER_03 56:51

Yes, I could see that.

SPEAKER_00 56:54

And because of the medium that it's on, because it's on TV, they they can't just have Kenneth Williams sat there as a judge recounting it, because people wouldn't sit through that.

SPEAKER_03 57:05

Right. And they I'm surprised we did, to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_00 57:11

I've sat through it several times.

SPEAKER_03 57:13

Yes, oh my goodness. So um it's not as bad as I'm making out. It just it just doesn't really do anything for me.

SPEAKER_00 57:21

It's one of the clips that we've seen so far that I would describe as a relic.

SPEAKER_03 57:26

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:27

It's something of a bygone era that I think it's difficult to enjoy now, maybe because we haven't got context for it.

SPEAKER_03 57:37

Maybe, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:38

Yeah. So later in his career, kind of after the carry-on films finished, he became well known as a raconteur, as a storyteller. And he would often kind of do the chat show circuit and tell these very, very funny stories. And it sort of culminated almost in what we're about to watch, is which is a clip from an audience with Kenneth Williams.

SPEAKER_03 58:03

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 58:04

Where he sort of sat down and pieced together a lot of his stories and songs, not the one we've just seen, it kind of almost as a best of.

SPEAKER_03 58:13

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:14

And this is a clip from 1983, an audience with Kenneth Williams, with him discussing the great actress Edith Evans. Excellent.

SPEAKER_02 58:24

Motor and let me explain.

SPEAKER_00 58:26

So that was Kenneth Williams talking about his experience working with Edith Evans.

SPEAKER_03 58:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:32

And doing all the voices.

SPEAKER_03 58:35

He does a marvellous sort of taking you into this story. It's much more than telling a story because yeah, his his Edith Evans impression is funny just before he even tells you anything about her. Just the face.

SPEAKER_00 58:50

Yes, absolutely. I mean I think at one point he describes it as a a sheep asleep.

SPEAKER_03 58:54

Yes. Yes. Which is funny. Yeah. And the face he's doing with it. I I have I don't really I don't really know if I've seen a sheep asleep, but I s I sort of buy it.

SPEAKER_00 59:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:05

He's got a way of selecting language. And this is what I feel about Victoria Wood.

SPEAKER_03 59:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 59:16

He knows what word is funny. It wouldn't have been funny for him to say a half bottle of wine in the accent of Edith Evans. He specifically says half bottle of Beaujolais. Yes. And it's because that word is funny in her voice.

SPEAKER_03 59:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:40

And making something more specific kind of almost makes it funnier as well, I think, sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 59:47

A hundred percent agree. Yeah. And uh sometimes the sound of the word is is a joke in itself somehow.

SPEAKER_00 59:56

Beaujolais!

SPEAKER_03 59:57

As you say, wine doesn't really give you anything. And even, I don't know, we could try out what, but like Shiraz doesn't excite me the same way Beaujolais.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:07

It's got a rhythm to it.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:08

It's got a rhythm, and yes, he's doing this this amazing sort of grande dame of the the arts voice, which Edith Evans is a long time ago now, so I don't know if people are familiar with her. I know the name and I haven't really got quite the image of her or the voice, but from that you feel like you know everything about her.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:31

And then when he switches into the waiter, such a specific impression, you f again you feel like you know that man.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:40

Everything about that man, yes, because he's doing a sort of slightly dodgery. The guy working in the hotel, the waiter and concierge or whatever, it's a slightly sort of doddery sort of uh you know, trying to try to do best gov type of a character. But he has the physicality, he's sitting down for most of it, but he stands up just to give you a little idea of this man kind of shuffling around and trying to do his best to serve these people.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:07

It's even the image of Edith Evans sits and that gives her a presence, like she wouldn't ever stand up. How dare you suggest such a thing?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:20

No. The earth would move around her. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:24

So camp. Talk to me about camp, because it is camp.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:27

It is camp. And I don't know. Again, it's so hard to pin down because I feel that like there's so much that's camp about this. We s we've spoken before actually about women, like powerful women sometimes subverting like a gender stereotype. So he gives us this very powerful woman. All of the story is about catering to her needs.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:51

But of course, he's a man doing this woman's voice, so she's ridiculous right from the start. And the th the theatre and arts have this kind of campness around them. So the the idea of her, I don't know, this sort of like uh grand woman of the stage, or like there's an aura about her, even though she's not really there.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:13

Um yeah, and he presents us with this idea that she is a normal woman because she sits at home making roast dinners.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:22

Well, that's what she has sort of transmitted to him.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:26

And he kind of gives us a little, you know, side eye to tell us what he thinks of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:32

Um, which is lovely. And then yes, he there's also a point where because there's a kind of like fear and apprehension of her in the story at first, there's a point where he flatters her, and so then they become kind of, you know, she accepts him.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:48

For for a bit of Edith Evans' context, yeah, I think today she would have been like the equivalent of like a Judy Dench. Absolutely, I think very different characteristics in some ways, but in terms of level of success and respect and what they've been in as well. Yeah. That that sort of and yeah, it is that thought of Judy Dench at home with a white apron on, peeling potatoes and making Yorkshire puddings.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:18

Basting the Basting the turkey. I boost, I boost So yeah, he he he sort of gives us a little, you know, reaction to that, and then when he manages to get on her good side with this compliment, again we get the sort of look to us, which we know is him. That's the thing, he's doing all these little looks where we know exactly what comment he's putting on that story moment, and it's it's wonderful, and yeah, the the the part where they get to being served by this this old waiter, it's wonderful when he goes into that, but then yeah, her Edith Evans reacting to him as well. We've got so many layers of kind of character uh story and so many things that he's doing, it's it's it's quite amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:11

He's sort of taking a figure that probably in and of herself is quite camp, then is a man doing an impression of a woman which lends itself to camp.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:26

Then also with his own commentary and side-eye and vocal inflections, which we've spoken about as being quite camp, so it kind of it's almost like a camp pizza. I could not have predicted you were gonna say that. I didn't know I was gonna say it until I did. But what I mean is like he starts with a camp base in Edith Evans and then he's sort of scattering all of these other camp toppings on top by it, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:04

So yeah, he's making a camp pizza. I I'm gonna just put my foot down right now and say, I don't think pizza is camp.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:11

No, nor do I.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:13

I think you should have gone trifle.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:15

A little fruity trifle.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:17

Yes. Uh it doesn't work as well for what you're describing, but it's definitely camper. No, but I see what you mean.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

You you're starting off with like a Lady Fingers.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:28

Did you know that's what they're called? The little sponge bit.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:31

You're starting off with Edith Evans's Lady Fingers.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:35

Lady Fingers!

SPEAKER_00 1:05:36

And then you're dolloping a bit of cream on top.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:39

Mmm. I think it's jelly or jam or something next, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:43

Yeah, then you've got a bit of a bit of fruity jam. And then yeah, a custard. So we've got a nice and and and we can't forget, if we're talking about Camp Trifle, sprinkles.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:58

Hundreds and thousands. Hundreds. Exactly. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:02

So is that the campus dessert?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:03

It's the campus one that came to mind.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:06

I think dis camp desserts is a battlefield, don't you?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:10

Maybe in a future episode we should sit down with some camp desserts.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:17

Though I'm lactose intolerant, so it might be quite difficult.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:20

I'll eat them. I'm fat, I'll do the eating. You can do the describing.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:26

You eat and I'll do the aesthetics.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:29

Okay, fine. Agreed. My ideal relationship.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:35

Right, we've got one more clip, and it's another example of his raconteur status. Excellent. Interestingly, reading the diaries, you kind of find you sort of see how planned these stories are. Because he'll write, oh, I went on this chat show and I did this story and this story. Like he knows what his bits are.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:56

He knows his bits. And this time he's getting his bits out for Joan Rivers.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:01

Oh my goodness. Matron, let me explain.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:04

So that's Kenneth Williams with Joan Rivers. And you you really get the sense of his storytelling in that.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:12

He does something which you don't hear of very often, which is he kind of bulldozes his way.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:19

Over Joan Rivers.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:21

Yes. I have to say, I couldn't imagine him having a conversation with Joan Rivers going into the clip. And it's clear that he still hasn't.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:30

No, that was not a conversation.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:32

They're not talking to each other. He he sets the tone for himself.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:37

Which is he goes straight into a story, quite a long story, before she gets to. I thought at one point she wouldn't say anything the whole time. And she does come out with some stuff, but atypical for Joan Rivers, he's he's got the upper hand.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:52

A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:54

And even when she first starts talking, you can see that she's kind of almost struggling to get herself back into the moment.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:03

100%. It's that yeah. I I was surprised to see that because you don't often see her struggling. But she yeah, she can't get back into it. He's doing too much. But I I wonder if that was a tactic that he went in with. Knowing what she's like, he was like, I'm just gonna do my thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:23

Possibly.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:23

And she's gonna have to keep up.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:25

And I think what's interesting is he begins with a topic that it certainly at the time, even now, I think, would unnerve the most of experienced of chat show hosts and audiences because he goes straight in and talks about having operations on his bum and having awful wind and things.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:47

Yes. Interesting, the last clip ended with a uh story about a fart.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:54

And this he that's his opening gambit, really. Yeah. Is I've had a lot of operations on my bottom. Yes. And um I just fart. Yes. That is interesting, isn't it? It just goes with that.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:08

In terms of camp, is somewhat subversive, I think.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:12

Yeah, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:13

I think you wouldn't tune into the Graham Norton show now and have I d they say all sorts on there. Yes, but I'm sure Hugh Jackman isn't rocking up to plug his new X-Men film with talk of his arse.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:34

I don't know. I haven't tuned in recently. I don't know, um I certainly haven't watched any X-Men films recently. I um no, I know what you're saying, because I think those like now they do get into these areas. But I'm sorry now we've got into a double entendre thing now and I can't stop. But it is it uh they need to um quite often on those shows, if there is something that's a bit dodgy, they have to work up to it. This is Yes, yeah. This is this is we've gone in cold two arse operations.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:09

There's been no um if we're going down this path, there's been absolutely no kind of audience lubrication.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:16

We're not looped up yet.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:17

No.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:18

No, we're just going straight for it.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:20

We're going straight for I can't sit on your PVC sofa because of my ass.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:25

Because of my ass. And I think it does throw Joan Rivers.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:28

I think uh the Americans are slightly more conservative in these things. Joan Rivers obviously said outrageous things, but yeah, there's something quite I don't know, like it's it's it's it's kind of it's n it shouldn't be outrageous to say I've had operations on my bottom, because if you said, Oh, I keep having to have operations on my elbow where it's just I can't get it right, there's nothing. It's just because it's the bum.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:51

Yeah, I mean I think the difference with that is you know, currently I've got my elbows out. But I don't think I would ever sit here with my arse out.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:01

Well, you just don't know what series two we'll have in store.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:07

I think I do. I can't speak for you.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:11

No, you can't.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:12

But it's not a path I'm going down. So yes, it's it's kind of camp because it's subversive. It's uh we've got the voice in there, the voices rather, the Yes, he is doing voices.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:28

He it this is the thing. He he has a couple of Kenneth Williams' voices, you know, that he goes into to in order to sort of There's the rather uptight one. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:39

And the slightly more salacious, I would say.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:41

Yeah, and he's just moving seamlessly in order to sort of like pick up on a good, you know, uh reaction from the audience, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:51

And he knows that it's funnier to talk about his bum in the slightly more reserved, you know, I've been in three times.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:01

Whereas actually uh now that I think about it and I am only just thinking about it, that wouldn't work comically if he was in the more Oh, I've been in three times. Like it doesn't You're so right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:15

Yeah. And this is a this is something we talk about in like comedy is like high status and low status. And most people are not doing both and managing to get away with like doing both in the same sentence, the same stories, yeah. Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:32

He has total control, which again I think we've spoken about in terms of campness. He commands the room. There are other people on that chat show, yeah, they do not get any sort of look in, even when it goes, yeah, looks like it's going to someone else. He's like, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:52

I I I just want to have a moment here to reflect on whether chat shows are quite camp, because there's something strange about putting these guests who are usually all stars in their own right, alongside each other.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:08

So in this one, I think he's sitting next to Phil Collins.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:12

And I think Peter Cook is also there. I didn't recognise, there wasn't a close-up where I could recognise the other two. But I often think this about like Graham Norton or the one show, especially, where you kind of line up people who shouldn't go together. They're from different worlds.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:28

Well, I for me, I think the pinnacle of that is the episode of Graham Norton where you have Lady Gargar and June Brown.

unknown 1:13:39

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:40

Who are both legends in their own right.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:44

But certainly not within the same circle.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:47

No. No, uh just totally different worlds.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:51

Worlds collide. And it there's something quite, yeah, as we say, subversive about that. Because you just line them all up for a chat, and the way in which we kind of experience celebrity and stuff, they just don't seem like they should ever go together. No. So when they do, there's something quite strange about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:13

So what do you think Kenneth Williams's legacy is and should be?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:19

Interesting. I think yeah, we've spoken about the uh carry-on films and our love of them. I think certainly his ability to tell a story, it was appreciated at the time, and I hope it continues to be appreciated because nowadays you do get the clips circulate online of um these sorts of things.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:42

Um the modern day equivalent, I think, for me is Miriam Marglay's.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:46

Yes. Who Everything out of her mouth is just entertaining.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:51

Yes, and I believe does chat shows for chat shows' sake. Like I think now people are so focused on going on them to plug something. And I mean I'm sure she does have something to plug, but certainly, you know, you sort of go, Oh well, that person went on that chat show because that film's coming out.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:12

Whereas with her, I sort of go, Oh yeah, and that time that she was on is when she told that story.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:19

Yes, and that's what we want. I like the idea of just being able to enjoy people's storytelling people who they are. And yeah, I think he's an amazing performer. I think he's almost one where I don't want him to be able to define his own legacy because his you know, diaries have been published, and people talk a lot about maybe he didn't get on with this co-star, or maybe he didn't enjoy this performance, and he thought this was a load of old rubbish. We actually we all have those moments where we go, I hate everyone, I hate what I'm doing, and it isn't always the fundamental truth. And I I I would I would be unhappy if people thought uh that that meant you know they weren't meant to enjoy those films and those performances because he had some he had a lot of emotions when creating them, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:17

Yeah, I think it's almost impossible to separate his legacy from the carry-on films because he was such a massive part of them. Yeah. The impression that I get is that he wouldn't want to just be remembered for those.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:33

But equally, I think I've said before, it's better to be remembered for something than to fade into obscurity.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:41

And the reality the reality of it is there aren't a lot of people going back and revisiting those radio comedies.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:49

No, and I think they're out there for the sort of you know, the people that want to go and find them.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:56

But the the carry-on films are such a massive legacy, they're going to likely be most people's route into Yeah, and I mean they're just repeated all the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:07

And for the most part, in most of them they're s they mostly hold up.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:14

I I think they're great. I love you know, as you say, the early ones, even though they're very, very old, um, a few of them are in black and white, they're very watchable. Um, he gives great performances as do they all. Some of the later ones uh are not great, but you know, uh I don't know, Carry On Screaming, which is one of the later ones, he gives an amazing Carry on Screaming's quite early.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:37

Is it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:38

I always think of it as a later one. But the the really late ones are not worth watching. There's a couple where they try and do just a sex comedy and don't bother with those. Um but yeah, there's like there's there's all sorts of performances that he gives that I think are really, really great. However he chooses to kind of, you know, discuss them in his diaries and stuff. They're so enjoyable.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:02

Yes, and a masterclass.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:04

Mm, absolutely.

unknown 1:18:06

Woo!

SPEAKER_00 1:18:07

So that was the Kenneth Williams episode of Camp Icons. Thank you so much for tuning in and listening. You can find us on Instagram and TikTok at Camp Icons Podcast. And we also have a Facebook page.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:22

Ooh! Cutting edge!

SPEAKER_00 1:18:24

I know. Uh, you can find us there, Camp Icons Podcast, surprisingly. Have you had fun this week, Liz?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:32

Yes, I have, yeah.

unknown 1:18:34

Good.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:35

You usually say what the next episode is, don't you?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:38

Next week we are taking on our first legend. I would say this person is a legendarily camp icon in perhaps a way we haven't seen previously. Next week we are looking at the great Liza Manelli. It's gonna be sequins and show tunes till dawn. Um, so I have been Nick. And I've been Liz. Thank you very much for listening, and we'll see you next week. Bye.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:16

Bye.