Liza Minnelli

We’re in the presence of camp royalty this week as we look at the legend herself…. Liza Minnelli! From showbiz beginnings to award winning theatre and film, marriages, albums, books… Liza’s done it all with a sequin and a smile!

Watch along with our video section at the links below!

Liza and Goldie - https://youtu.be/U_gaRYg48CE?si=f6yZnepWX9VurON2 

Liza and the Muppets - https://youtu.be/LCGSZmTsX7o?si=kbOHjkUkEEoyzS7F 

Don’t Drop Bombs - https://youtu.be/xpbRfP1UwkQ?si=Z1YCTpsWZ1ANYFjK 

Liza performs Some People  - https://youtu.be/yX0tb-7eXrA?si=S4yYXt_uabFVSfy1 

Liza performs Single Ladies - https://youtu.be/FfHmm6kZ3jc?si=O9M36MPCrLBQ0ZW_ 

Liza sings New York New York - https://youtu.be/8XhxfFzgKmU?si=B-ywJu_JDwDr2iGc 

We are indebted to those who have originally uploaded these videos, this podcast wouldn't be possible without them!

Follow us on social media for more nonsense:

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello, willkommen, bienvenue, welcome to Camp Icons. I'm Nick.

SPEAKER_02 0:05

And I'm Liz.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Hello Liz. How are you this week?

SPEAKER_02 0:08

I'm very well, thank you. Yes, doing good.

SPEAKER_01 0:10

We've had a little recording break, haven't we? We've had a couple of weeks off.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

Yeah, we haven't been able to see each other. Oh, I've missed it.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

I've missed it too. I completely lost my voice though, and unfortunately the podcast medium sort of dictates that I do need that in order for us to record.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

I would say it's pretty much the most vital thing.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

Almost. The most vital is sequins, which is. Which we've got in abundance today.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Yes, haven't we just? Which I mean brings us quite nicely onto what we're doing this week. I'm so excited. So this is our final icon for the time being, in its current form, anyway. We're gonna tell you a little bit more about that at the end of the episode. But we have made this the icon of icons slot.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

We had to do her.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

We had to do her, there was no question. We are today looking at Miss Liza Manelli. So I mean when I think of camp, yes, one of the things that instantly comes to mind is Liza Manile.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

I yeah, pretty much. She's right there next to the dictionary definition.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Yeah, I think so. Tell me what you know about Liza Liz.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

I think I probably say every week that I'm the most excited about this episode. But I do feel genuinely excited. She she is a legend. I can't you don't everybody knows everybody knows Liza, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Well, they should.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

They should. And I think Well, we should mention that uh I've mentioned sequins and uh I apologize if anybody hears me rattling, but I have I have dressed a little like Liza. I uh these are things I had had knocking around. This is my second time dressing up as Liza. Did you know that? I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

When did you dress up as Liza before?

SPEAKER_02 2:14

It was my 21st birthday.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Right.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

And my birthday's around Halloween, so I quite like to dress up. I dressed as Sally Bowles from Cabaret and I went out, nobody else was dressed up. I don't think I cared. I think it's might be the only time I've worn hot pants uh outside the house. Um I don't wear them in the house. Uh and uh yeah, I I think I I really I love cabaret, you know, her her as Sally Bowles, she's absolutely incredible. That whole musical is so iconic, but that performance is amazing. So that's my like thing that I love um her in. And then I don't know what else I know. Obviously, we know uh her parents, we know Judy.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

We know Judy.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

And she's just about, isn't she? She does some singing, she'll turn up in sequence. She's just she's just always been around.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

She has always been around, and I think that I mean, I don't know about you, I found it quite easy to dress up as Liza.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

I I was incredibly excited to dress as Liza because I knew I wanted sequins and I knew I wanted to do a vaguely like cabaret makeup look. My my makeup skills, I think I've mentioned before, are nowhere. But I quite like the idea of um myself being a kind of melted wax version of what I'm trying to achieve. I'm I'm sort of okay with that.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

Anything else wouldn't uh you know I would need to study uh how to apply makeup and I'm not really prepared to do it. Um anyway, but yeah, I love I love her like her look is kind of Well it's iconic. Yeah, it is. It's got this In cabaret, she's you know, trying to be like the twenties like thir thirties, yeah. Thin eyebrows and stuff, but there's kind of bits of that that bleed over into her look the rest of the time, you know, she quite often does that. So it's like there's a um blending of who she is in that and who she is outside. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. It's um it's a very bold look.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

It's um but it's also one of those looks that you look at and go, that's Liza.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

And there are very few people I think that can do that.

SPEAKER_02 4:47

Own their own look.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

This is this is a Liza look. So you mentioned her parents.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

So she was born on March the 12th, 1946. She has just celebrated her 80th birthday.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Good lord, I think.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

I know to Judy Garland, as you mentioned, and Vincente Minelli.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

Who was a golden age Hollywood director. He directed Meet Me in St. Louis and An American in Paris. She absolutely adored her dad.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

Oh, did she?

SPEAKER_01 5:24

They yeah, absolutely adored him.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

I don't think I ever knew so I knew that he was a director, but I don't think I've ever known anything about their relationship or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Absolutely adored him, appeared in one of his films in the 70s as well. They actually worked together and also spent a lot of time with him on film sets when she was a kid.

SPEAKER_03 5:41

Interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

Her relationship with her mother was slightly more complex. Obviously, it's well documented. Judy had a substance abuse issue, and growing up, Liza said that she felt like she was a sort of a carer from a very young age.

SPEAKER_03 6:04

Interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

All of this is from a book that Liza has released only this year. Um, it's called Kids Wait Till You Hear This. And it's her life story as told to Michael Feinstein. So basically, she has he's interviewed her for hours and hours and hours and then shaped it into a book, essentially. So yeah, growing up, uh things were a little tricky with Judy. When she was 16, I didn't know this until I'd read the book. When she was 16, she dropped out of school and moved to New York City with Judy refusing to financially support her.

SPEAKER_03 6:44

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Which made Liza even more determined to make it on her own. Family friends, Frank Sinatra sent her a cheque for $500 to get her set up and she returned it saying, No, thank you, I'm gonna do it by myself.

SPEAKER_02 7:01

Really?

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

Wow, okay. It is quite it is quite a strange, and I think we might talk about this in terms of her as a Camp Icon, but it is quite a surreal life when you are the child of somebody who's uber famous, like Judy Garland. Yes. Um, that yeah, your people in your life are Frank Sinatra sending you a check to try and help you out. It's quite a strange upbringing, and I think you know, J Judy Garland was obviously a child star, so she'd been around famous people her whole life as well. So she's already part of this weird world where you're uh you're kind of in a bubble and then she's she's trying at 16 to sort of do something on her own. I can imagine that makes total sense when you're you're so you're known as Judy Garland's daughter. Like that's that's your identity straight away. You would want to create something for yourself, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

100%. Judy did end up putting her up in a hotel.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Which Liza then left because Judy kept phoning and saying, How is my daughter?

SPEAKER_02 8:13

Oh she was trying to keep tabs on her.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

Yeah, trying to keep tabs on her. So she ended up sofa surfing and she was eventually taken on by an agent, and the agent helped her into accommodation. And she made her off off Broadway debut in a show called Best Foot Forward.

SPEAKER_03 8:32

Okay, alright.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

It's not one that I can say I've really heard of.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

It doesn't seem to have lasted.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

At the time it was very successful.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

Okay, fair enough. Something's just yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

It it's it's not one that's endured, I think, is what we're trying to say.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

It's interesting that backstory, because I think sometimes people who are kids of celebrities have to try and prove that they aren't just Nepo babies, which is the phrase we use now, but like nepotism's always been a thing. And sometimes they have to prove that they struggled. I don't think like I don't think it's the same struggle as somebody who's starting from nothing has, but you know, she that was her life. She had to make the best of whatever she was given, and so I do I you know I quite like the idea that she was like, I'm gonna strike out for myself, and yeah, she definitely she had a big kind of shadow to step out of. I think that's what we're saying. You know, Judy's so famous, and also her private life was always a big matter for discussion, so there's a lot of stuff surrounding Judy that's hard to for her to break free from.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Yes. And in some ways, I sort of don't want to dwell on Judy too much.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Because she might come up in a future episode.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Well, partly because she might come up in a future episode, but also I think there's a lot of discussion to be had around this is the Liza episode, and we're just talking about Judy.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

Well, it's where we're starting.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

But but it is a difficult thing because you can't separate the two because they are mother and daughter.

SPEAKER_02 10:09

And also I do think you see echoes, like it's it's not like it's not like th they're they're both like uh operate in the same world, like musical film world, but also you can't look at Liza and not see Judy more sometimes than others, I think. But you you you it's not like you wouldn't know.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

No, completely. It's yeah, there's you can see the link.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

Yes, exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

So while she was in Best Foot Forward, it was running, and she made the decision that she was going to stay with it until it sort of had its run, basically. And Judy forced her to leave the show. No, to go to LA and appear on the Judy Garland show, the variety show that she was making.

SPEAKER_02 10:53

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

Um it was very much a case of what Judy wanted always came first.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

She later invited Liza to headline the London Palladium with her. And Liza only agreed to it on the terms that she would be able to step out and sing on her own before Judy ever entered the stage.

SPEAKER_02 11:19

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

It's the night that she says that before an audience she felt like she stepped out from the shadow.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

Oh, is it?

SPEAKER_01 11:29

But equally, yeah, as she came to the end of her fifth song, um, which was just before Judy was about to come on stage, she heard Judy say to the producer, Harold, get her off my fucking stage.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Because the crowd were going that crazy for her.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Oh my goodness. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

And it was a you know, she she felt threatened.

SPEAKER_03 11:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Yeah. When Judy saw her in Best Foot Forward, she cried and said, Liza, you're gonna be bigger than me, just don't let them kill you.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

Gosh. Yeah. As you say, I don't want to go into all of Judy's life because it's the Liza episode, but there's a lot, there's a lot of stuff behind that statement. Yes. And all of this is an incredible like weight on you as a like when you're trying to start out and do something yourself, like it would be nice to have a really supportive parent and not one who's bringing quite so much baggage to every reaction to everything you do.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

But I think it was I think it was that Judy felt slightly threatened by what Liza was bringing to the table.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

Of course. Yeah. But she's she's had a career where I think that she's always felt threatened by something because there's always somebody pushing her that you're not you know, you need to do this, this is how you do things. You know, she's been under people's control in her career, and to see somebody else who's like the next version of her, she must have felt like they're gonna want her, not me now. And yeah, that's heavy. It's heavy stuff.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Shortly after this, she met John Cander and Fred Ebb, who are songwriters.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

Candra and Ebb.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

Kandra and Ebb, they wrote Cabaret, Chicago.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

Probably other things.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

They did write other things because the first show that she did with them was Flora the Red Menace.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

And it's not a great title. It's I mean, it's about what you think it is.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

It's yeah. What do I think it's about? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

What do you think it's about? I honestly I've got two really strong candidates. Okay. Which are periods or communism.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

It's communism.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

Okay, good.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

I don't think Broadway was quite ready for the period musical.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

I'm just saying that.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

I still don't think Broadway's ready for the period musical, to be honest.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

There are two red menaces that I know of personally. Uh one's historical, one's very personal.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

But so she met John Cander and Fred Ebb, and they pushed for her to be cast in that. The people casting it didn't weren't didn't really want her. Um and they pushed. And as a result of that, she won her first Tony Award.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

Best leading actress.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

I think what is astounding and what people possibly don't realise is that she won her first Tony Award when she was 19.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

Oh my god. Yeah. That is crazy, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

Again, it's just it's a huge amount of pressure that's on her from a very young age. Because um that brings with it then you've got to keep up a level of success now. Otherwise, you know, you're not you you you're that you've peaked at 19, which you don't want to do.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Completely.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

From that, she then went on to be cast in Cabaret, winning the Oscar for Best Actress. Cabaret is a masterpiece as far as I'm concerned.

SPEAKER_02 15:10

Yes, absolutely. One of the it's one of the greatest films ever made. Now, I I'm gonna go on a rant now. Do you mind?

SPEAKER_01 15:16

No, go. I I did Grease 2 in Miss Piggy, you you take Cabaret.

SPEAKER_02 15:20

Well, this rant isn't at you, you haven't done it. Um Cabaret is is one of the greatest films ever made. It's released the same year as uh The Godfather, right? And Cabaret sweeps the Oscars, but The Godfather wins Best Picture, and you you get Cabaret winning uh Best Director, but not Best Picture, because Best Picture has to go to a serious movie that men like, and when you get these lists of the greatest films ever made, you'd be really surprised if Cabaret was at the top of the list, whereas The Godfather quite often sits at the top of those lists, and I'm just gonna say to you that a lot of that is about patriarchy because it is don't because The Godfather's seen as being about you know it's very it's one of the most masculine films, and that's why it sits at the top of those lists. But the themes in cabaret, even though it's a musical, are just as serious, it's you know, about like Nazis and it's it's just as uh deep emotionally, it's just it's reaching for something just as big, and it's absolutely you know unique in the style and the look and the way it's made. It's absolutely an incredible film, and yeah, it should be at the top of those greatest film ever made lists. Uh one of these days, honestly, there might be a podcast in this. I want to do best picture winners if women counted as people, because almost all of the films that are chosen are Men of the Most Important Thing in the World. So let's look at which movie really spoke to men this year. And there are great films like Cabaret that deserve to sit up there, and yeah, it got so many Oscars, but it didn't get a best picture until I f I I honestly it's so good, it's such a good, so so good.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

I what I find really interesting about it, given its pedigree, so Liza Minnelli, Bob Fossey, is that I actually don't find it a camp film.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Interesting, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Because for all of its kind of flair and those moments where you think it would be very easy for it to tip over into camp, yeah, the way that it's shot really grounds it.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

Yes. I was gonna say it's using some of the aesthetic of camp. So because it's set at the cabaret, the cabaret uses that that the the sequence and the and the beauty and whatever.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

But that it yeah, that isn't the experience you're having as a viewer.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

It it takes the aesthetic of camp to the grotesque, I think.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

Well yes, it does. And I think that's something that they they bring out in some of the um when they uh do the revivals on West End and Broadway is that they can depending on what's going on politically actually in the world, you can go more to the grotesque or more to the the the campside. I think it's really interesting property because of that. But yeah, I've I've so much time for the movie. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Yeah. Anyway. Little cabaret deep dive for you there.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

After she won the Oscar for cabaret, she reunited with Bob Fossey to do Liza with a Z.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

Liza with a Z? I was I've been singing it all morning.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

It's hard not to, I think.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

It's hard. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

So Liza with a Z was your typical kind of 60s, 70s variety show in the style of the Cher show, the Carol Burnett show.

SPEAKER_04 18:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

But the difference with Liza with a Z is that the whole thing and I didn't realise this, I've seen it, I didn't realise it. The whole thing was broadcast entirely live.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Oh wow, okay. We just we don't understand how big productions and how like doing stuff live was so much more of a thing.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Completely.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

And yeah, I've only seen bits of it, but that is incredible.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

She was singing it all live.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

She was dancing it all live, and it had to run as live. And when you look at what she's doing, I need to sit down after the opening number. I mean, but she is hammering away up there, hammering tongs. We've spoken before about uh I think it was Eartha Kitt we said performs with every fibre of her being.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

I I feel like Liza is kind of similar, she she gives it everything.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Yes. That's something I think you sometimes see in people we're calling icons, is that they will go on stage and like bleed for you. Like they will give you everything that they've got.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

She says in her memoir, I never sing to an audience, I am singing to you. As I reach out, I'm asking, have you ever been through this? It's a shared emotional moment.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

That's fantastic, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 20:24

She likes to I was gonna say she likes to penetrate you, but I don't want people to take that the wrong way.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

You should absolutely say that.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

Liza wants to penetrate you. Um clip that. Let's go from the sneak peek. But she wants to emotionally penetrate you.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

Just emotionally.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Just emotionally, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Remain in your seats. I don't know um if emotionally penetrate would be the moment to come back to what we're wearing. But uh I've just noticed you've got a tattoo and I've never seen it before.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

What?

SPEAKER_02 21:01

I didn't know you had a tattoo.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

This tattoo is nine years old.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

What does it say?

SPEAKER_01 21:07

So it is Mandarin for grandmother. So it's two repeating symbols. It literally is mum, mum's mum.

SPEAKER_02 21:18

Oh, that's so lovely. I j I j I'm just saying, you it's a more revealing outfit than I've ever seen you in.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

I mean, it feels it. We haven't really done the deep dive on the the outfits, have we? Should we take a moment?

SPEAKER_02 21:33

We should take a moment, I think.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

So you're giving full Sally Bowls. We've got the sequin dress, we've got the sort of I want to say sm lounge jacket, smoking jacket.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

I yes, I think it's like one of those kimono sleeve uh knocking about your parlour, waiting for a gentleman caller type of an arrangement.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

That is what I got when you opened the door.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

Oh god, yes. Um I said to you, this is a terrifying vision. Of the future, in which I just go about my house fully made up for no reason, choker, kimono sleeves, talking to my dog because I've got nobody else for company. Honestly, um a real look into what I'm gonna do when I'm about 75, I think, or before.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Um I think in a previous episode you said that you had been wearing more makeup than you've ever worn in worn in your life.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

I think you've outdone yourself today.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

I really have, because you're you gave me uh a bit of a read and said there wasn't enough purple eyeshadow. So now I've gone all the way to my eyebrow with the blue. Yes. Still not a lot compared to some people because there's no room there. But yeah, I I really think like when I put the makeup on, I really think about the people because I'm like, this feels like so much makeup, and I know I'm seeing her in performance and everything, but it feels like their the people that we're looking at quite often, their whole life is such a performance, and it is nobody is it more true of than Liza. But yeah, I was like, how do you just knock about with like thick black eyebrows all the time? Like, is it I don't know. Anyway, I I love doing that. I love putting off the makeup and going, This looks absurd on me. Like, how do they get away with this?

SPEAKER_01 23:23

And you can see what Liz looks like on our social media.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Yes, don't forget to follow us on social media so you can see these looks. Because otherwise we did this for nothing and we feel insane.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

I've gone for the jumpsuit.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

I've gone for a bold red jumpsuit.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

I'm very impressed with it.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

It was two pounds on vintage.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

Honestly, get on vintage because I'll be honest with you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

It's a smidge tighter than perhaps I had anticipated.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

I I mean I did notice you sitting down quite slowly.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

I sat down quite well, it's because it's not just that it's tight, it's that in order for it not to be obscene, I've had to tuck today, which I mean it's commitment to a whole new level for an audio podcast.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

Imagine being tucked for a podcast.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

This is quite a nice segue, actually, because I wanted to talk about uh the designer Holston who pretty much dressed Liza for the duration of his life. She sort of became a little bit of a muse to him.

SPEAKER_02 24:31

Oh, interesting. I don't think I know anything about him.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

He his name was Roy Holston and she saw a dress of his in a department store and from that moment just had to meet him.

SPEAKER_03 24:44

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

And he basically made the iconic Liza look.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

I've got an interesting fact for you here.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

Oh, do tell me.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

I was fascinated by this. The reason that she always wears so many sequins is because it hides how much she sweats during her shows. She said in her book, other people go on stage and they perspire. I go on stage and I sweat.

SPEAKER_02 25:15

Oh, good for her.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Um but it but it doesn't show.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

And it doesn't Well I I take her point, but but at the same token, I don't think I've ever sweated more in a podcast than sat here doled up in all these sequins. So I mean it just might be uh it might be exacerbating the problem, but it very is a very novel solution and I like it.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Lise was married four times.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

Yes, okay. I was hoping we'd get to the marriages. How many were gay?

SPEAKER_01 25:47

So she was initially married to Peter Allen, who about two years into the marriage she discovered in bed with another man.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

Oh dear. That is unfortunate.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

It is. She She says in the book that at the time bisexual wasn't really a term.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

But she kind of said she found him in bed with a man, they stayed together, they still did things? Still yeah, still did things. Then she married Jack Haley Jr.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Who was the son of the actor that had played the Tin Man in The Wizard of Oz.

SPEAKER_02 26:23

Okay, that's real weird to me.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

Yep, Dorothy's daughter and the Tin Man's son.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

Got married. Weird shit. Then she married a man called Mark Gero. Gero. I haven't got much to say about him, to be honest. And then she married, and I think people of our generation will be very familiar with the marriage to David guest.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

Yes, this is the one we know.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Which she describes as the marriage from hell.

SPEAKER_02 26:48

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_01 26:49

He was a man who wanted to use her for her cash and her contacts and very little else.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

Ugh. I think people of my generation know him from David's Dead.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Well, yes. He he went on to be in Celebrity Big Brother, and it was the year that David Bowie died, and David Bowie's ex-wife was in the house.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

In the house, so they informed her, of course.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

And she came out and she said David's dead, and Tiffany New York Pollard thought that David Guest had died. It's it's it's it's quite a funny moment. You've probably seen it.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

Um it makes me laugh quite a lot more than it probably should.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

She married David Guest in a $3.2 million ceremony.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

Well, this is the other thing I remember because I think it was at the time when that sort of thing would have been in like hello or okay or whatever, and Michael Jackson's there.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Michael Jackson was David's best man.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

And Elizabeth Taylor was Lysa's maid of honour.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

It was an absurd time for celebrity. The worlds that were colliding with that.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

Yeah, it was it was outlandish.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

She says of David Guest, I I love this quote, if I could wave a magic wand, I would have avoided this creep like Salmonella. I'd have kicked his bony ass to the ground wearing stilettos, which is something he later accused me of doing. How absurd. Why on earth would I ruin a beautiful shoe?

SPEAKER_02 28:19

So this wasn't the happiest marriage.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

No.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

No.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

No. And she says now, after four marriages, that's it, but I'm not out of the dating game.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

Ideally, I'd like to date an older elegant gentleman who speaks beautifully and is filthy rich. Then I'd like to date a 40-year-old guy who is passionate about something. I don't care what. Then I'd like to date an 18-year-old who I see twice a week and whose name I don't know. Oh, that's I mean You weren't expecting that, way.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

No, it's so good. To say it makes me really happy. Like, I don't obviously it's problematic, whatever age she was wanting an 18-year-old, but it's just so it's just so fun. Oh, the quote is fun. She knows what she wants. It's a theme. It's a theme with these these people we're looking at. They know what they want.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

They know what they want. She has had a lifelong battle with substance abuse. I don't think we can kind of cover her without this, because they're sort of quite quite linked, I think.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Yeah, I mean, a hard time in a you know, life and and uh she started off with a uh a mum that had the same problems. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Yeah. She's had several stints in rehab, relapses, and a scary incident collapsing on the streets of New York. She describes in the book how she basically collapsed on the streets and people were just walking over her.

SPEAKER_03 29:54

Really? Oh my god. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

In the year 2000, she was in such bad health that she was told that she may never walk, talk, read, or sing ever again.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

That's a long time ago.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

Yeah, so that was the year 2000, and then I think she was back on stage 2002. Yeah. She just pushed through. How many? Yeah. I'm gonna be honest with you, I like I've had difficulty with this biography because obviously we're on a certain amount of time limit.

SPEAKER_03 30:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

And I I wrote sort of notes out, and then I kept going, oh, but she's done this, but she's done this, but she's done this. So I I just want people to know that I absolutely don't think this is an exhaustive.

SPEAKER_02 30:36

No, we could probably talk all day about different things that she's done.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 30:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

She said, of the present, the fact is I'm very much alive and kicking, even if those fossil kicks aren't as high as they used to be. I feel like the same old Liza. Just don't make me bend down to pick anything up.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

Oh, I I really relate.

unknown 30:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

You you're not 80.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

No, no, but uh don't make me bend down and pick anything up.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

No.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

No, because I've got pots that I'll just faint. Oh, I love that. I I think yeah, she's really a person who's had her identity to actually step into that as a person was difficult with all the like overshadowing and you know being in this world of fame and celebrity. But she's someone who absolutely has done that and yeah, like we said, you you know Eliza. Look, you know you know her from something, you don't know what it is, but you she's just incredible. So I love those quotes from her as well.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

I don't know if you remember this or not, right? But I've seen her.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

I do remember this. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

I do remember this. It was 2010 at the Royal Albert Hall.

SPEAKER_03 31:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

I went to see her, and all of the things that we've discussed about being an icon and the way she performs, and everything that she gives when she performs is all absolutely true. It was quite magical in a way. It's she came out on stage and the whole audience was on her side. The whole audience hung on every word that she said or she sang. I mean, don't get me wrong, the audience was just a load of gays.

SPEAKER_03 32:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Um but she knows her market now. Um and you know, her voice wasn't what her voice was back in but it was it was still better than I if I'm completely honest, better than I thought it was going to be.

SPEAKER_04 32:44

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

Based on kind of the struggles and stuff that she'd had. But yeah, you would she was just magnetic.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

It's it's really incredible, yeah, because I think you're not a person to like, you know, talk uh in an over-the-top way about someone. So if you say it was magical, I really, you know, I believe I believe it. And I think there is something about her that is almost like otherworldly. Like she represents this kind of world of of glamour and yeah, but I maybe partly because she's like Judy Garland's daughter, she has that kind of link through to like uh an age that is gone, but also you know, also the things that like she's done, but there's something about her that is yeah, it's uh a sort of like a world of glamour and excess and camp.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

It's almost ethereal.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

Mmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

It's ethereal, but it's a bit more punchy than ethereal, isn't it? It's like she's got I don't know, it's it's it it's it's sequins and feathers, but it's it's it's real like a real grit of it. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Well, I think we should move on to some clips.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

Oh, I can't wait for the clips!

SPEAKER_01 34:02

Uh we're gonna start with a clip, right, okay. Normally we do five clips, and I'm very strict with myself. Yes. You know, we do five clips, I'd picked my five clips, and then I found the one that I'm gonna show you first.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

Oh, okay. We're starting with the bonus clip.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

And I couldn't bump anything off.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

No.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

But I couldn't exclude this. So in 1980, she filmed a television special with Goldie Horn.

SPEAKER_02 34:32

Oh right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

And really, I don't know what else to say about this.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

We better just watch it then. It's Liza with the scene, not Lisa with the Nesca's Lisa with the Nesco Snuz.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

Can you describe what you've just seen?

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Um yes, I think so, yes. So Liza and Goldie Horn are dressed up sort of like clowns. They don't have clown makeup, but they have clown shoes.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

They definitely have clown shoes.

SPEAKER_02 35:03

That's a big deal. Ver the real the largest of the clown shoes that you're imagining, yes. And well, Liza's outfit is more like, I don't know, like she's got a white top out and tails, but but it's like a sort of Harlequin. But then Goldie's more bit like a a Napoleon type of thing going on.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

There's sort of a there's sort of a ragdoll nature to them.

SPEAKER_02 35:29

Yeah, I was gonna say, it's like they're in a toy box, but so yeah, they're not they're not clowns, but they definitely are clown shoes, but it's like they're just toys with big feet.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 35:40

Yes. Okay. So then the two of them are well, I say the two of them are singing, mostly Liza's singing.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Goldie's quite low in the mix, isn't she? When they're singing together.

SPEAKER_02 35:53

It feels like Goldie wasn't as secure in her singing.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

So Liza's doing the bulk of the work.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

And I what I will say is it's I would say that's quite a technically difficult song to sing.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

Well, there's parts of it, uh there's so many words. Like she's rattling through yeah, yeah. So it feels like a tricky one.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

But she's also dancing. Yeah. So she's dragging Goldie Horn round on her ass and all sorts of stuff. It's quite a thing, I think, to see two women who are usually sort of dressed in a glamorous, elegant way, acting totally stupid and sort of deliberately clumsy and and foolish and Yeah, I I guess against type. Against type.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

I don't want to say that everyone has to be of a type, but you do you know what I'm saying? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

But is that part of the camp where you sort of like you're doing something unexpected for what you're supposed to be? Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 36:52

I think so, yeah. There's subversion.

SPEAKER_02 36:55

Subversion.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

It's a big deal in camp, I'm telling you.

SPEAKER_01 36:59

Subversion of type.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

Yeah. So um yeah, they got they got they're doing this song. And it's in one of those I th I don't I don't know that they have the budget for these now, huge studio sets where they just get to do a little song and dance number and they just prat about and uh yeah, it's sort of a white box, isn't it? Yeah, huge white box, which they always give you a little bit of uh furniture that some sort of thing that you can step up and uh jump off or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

They get a spontaneous round of applause when they start walking up steps.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

Yep. The audience love that. They've really gone through.

unknown 37:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

All just dancing, no, a bit too much. Ah, walking up steps. That's what we wanted. That's what we want.

SPEAKER_02 37:40

That's what we came for. Yeah. Yeah, and then they get on the the floor, they sit on the like top of the steps, and um seem to have quite a lot of difficulty. They're supposed to pull each other up. I don't think they had enough rehearsal on that particular element.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

I think another thing that makes it quite camp is how certainly Liza is playing it very seriously.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

Yeah, yeah, she is.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

She is inhabiting her character, and you know, she's doing high kicks in clown shoes.

SPEAKER_02 38:14

Well, this is it.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

But she's She's doing it like she's not wearing clown shoes, and I think that just makes the the image of it funnier.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

Yeah. I was almost I was sitting watching it thinking they've almost got like characters, even though it's just a song. Like she's quite an intense sort of wanting everything to work type of character, and Goldie Horn, I think, does this all the time is sort of like an away with the fairies type of I'll just follow along. But so that that I guess that's from their real characters, but kind of comes through. But yeah, she's it is it is something to do with that performance intensity. It's like I'm going to give you a real yeah, high kick showstopper number, despite how ridiculous I look. I I love that.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

Can you see why I had to include it?

SPEAKER_02 39:05

I can see why. Because I think just it just literally the image of them is camp. Like as soon as you see them, that's enough. You know? Because the the costumes are great, they're so much fun. And yeah, as soon as you see that you're sold. I don't I don't know the song.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

I don't know the song either.

SPEAKER_02 39:23

Because sometimes we watch these things and I think they didn't surely they didn't write that especially for this. I mean, this one seems like there's so much work in it, there's so many words. Surely it wasn't just for this one performance, but then I've never heard of it anywhere else.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

So well we'll look that one up and let you know. Moving on to something equally insane. Very sorry to do this to you, but we are returning to the realm of the Muppet.

unknown 39:49

Oh no!

SPEAKER_01 39:51

But again, this is so camp and so insane, I couldn't not. So this is Liza during her stint hosting the Muppet Show.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

It's Liza with the Z not Lisa with the Neskut's Lisa with the Nesco Snuz.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

Right, the first thing I have to say to you is that we could have done the entire podcast just about this clip. Because I have so much to say. If people think I'm sort of angry that I had to watch the Muppets again, I'm not. Because this clip is one of my favourite things we've watched on every single episode. I've never seen it before because I haven't watched all the Muppets clearly. But The Muppets and Liza doing Cobra Cabana are unbelievable. I have I have so many thoughts. Okay, the first thing I'm gonna say, right? Yeah, Cobra Cabana is a song, right? I think people remember the opening bit, you know, her name was Lola, she was a showgirl, and they think it's a very fun song. Because they just remember that part. But then it goes on to be about, you know, Lola's story and this uh Tony and Rico shooting, right? Which the Muppets here dramatise. Yes. And the way that I hear people sometimes say that Muppets Christmas Carol is actually the best version of Christmas Carol that's ever been put on film. I think this is the best Copacabana's ever been done, right? Ever. Because they stage every little bit of this.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

There is not a moment in that song that isn't staged.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

And I love it so much. Can I tell you one other thing about Copacabana?

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Please.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

I once sung it at a funeral. Because again, the family had lost someone who was a big Barry Manilo fan, and I think they just remembered the fun part, but they made us because people try and inject some personal connection into the funerals. Yes. So they thought, well, it's one of mum's favourite songs, so we'll sing that. So an entire crowd of mourners sung every word to Cobra Cabana, and it's a long song, and I had a lot of time to contemplate the story of Lola and Tony and Rico and whether I should be singing that at a funeral, and I've never enjoyed it after that. I really enjoyed this, it might have just cured me.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

I'm so happy I could give that back to you today.

unknown 42:24

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 42:28

So now let's go beat by beat because I love this more than anything we've watched.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

So, yes, it begins with Lila no, Liza. She's just so convincing. It begins with Liza sat at a table in like a cabaret club.

SPEAKER_02 42:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

She's dressed all in black and she all I can the only way I can describe it is she has the hair of Ava Peron.

SPEAKER_02 42:56

Yes. I'll go with that. Yes. Yeah, yeah, it's a look, and it's very, it's very cool actually at that point. Quite cool.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

And then she sings the opening, which is the happy bit.

SPEAKER_02 43:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

Quite a sad, dramatic, almost like a dramatic monologue.

SPEAKER_02 43:14

She does. And again, she's giving it everything, even where there's not that much to give, you know. It's a crowded floor, and you're like, okay, it's not that dramatic. But she gives you everything in that moment. Everything.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

Everything. And then the camera pans from her at the table over to the main stage. And suddenly, on the main stage, it is Liza inhabiting the role of Lola.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

Now she's Lola.

SPEAKER_01 43:47

She's Lola. In an outfit that in an outfit that is one of the brightest things I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_02 43:57

She had to have yellow feathers in her hair.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 44:01

And a dress cut down to there.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

True.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

And up to there.

SPEAKER_01 44:05

It sort of is almost like Lola is Big Bird.

SPEAKER_02 44:12

It's not all yellow, though. It's mostly orange actually, but it's very um unflattering as well as a colour combination.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

It's not one of her Holston gowns, is it?

SPEAKER_02 44:25

I mean, did Barry Manlow write that song? Or did somebody else? I don't know, but a man clearly wrote it because yellow isn't the best colour. Anyway, um yeah, she looks she she looks n but she always looks great, but she doesn't the colours are not the best.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

Then we have the opening of the song again in a more upbeat, the more sort of Copacabana Copacabana that we're expecting to hear.

SPEAKER_03 44:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

And she dances to every beat of that music. Even when there's not a beat. She's moving, she's dancing, she's committed.

SPEAKER_02 45:01

She really, yes, she is committed, and yeah, she gives it so much, and it really works for the Muppet energy. It just works. And then we meet the other characters.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

Then we meet Tony who is tending barr.

SPEAKER_02 45:15

Now my excitement when I saw Tony tending bar.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

For those of you who are not that familiar with the Muppets.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

Muppet haters like me.

SPEAKER_01 45:25

Or no, not even Muppet haters, but those who maybe don't know the canon.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

Okay, yes.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

The original Muppet Show in the 70s, not only did you have you sort of Kermits and you miss piggies, but you had people in full Muppet skin suits, like human-sized Muppets.

SPEAKER_02 45:46

Human-sized Muppets, basically. Which obviously, for dancing, makes sense that they had to bring out somebody for her to dance with.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 45:56

And it is not a human, it's a mupple.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

It's Tony.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

Tony the Muppet.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

A big furry pink monster.

SPEAKER_02 46:03

I thought he was purple.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

Is he purple? No, I don't know. Pinky purple.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

Okay, pinky purple.

SPEAKER_01 46:08

And I'll be honest, when I first watched it, I assumed he was gonna stay behind that bar.

SPEAKER_02 46:13

Of course, yeah. As did I.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

Oh no.

unknown 46:16

No, he's out.

SPEAKER_01 46:17

Out he comes, and he's going toe-to-toe with Liza.

SPEAKER_02 46:19

He's doing the merengue or something.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

And the chatcha.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

Yeah, he's pro he's properly doing it with her. Yeah. And then um of course, uh as things develop, we also need to meet Rico. Rico. I'm so glad he's also there. Tony is just a a a a sort of quite a standard look of a Muppet, quite you kind of of hair. Just or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

Fluff. He's got a sort of an echo of animal about him, I think.

SPEAKER_02 46:46

Yeah, yeah, on a big scale.

SPEAKER_01 46:47

Yeah, a big a big animal.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

And then a big animal. And then Rico. What would you what would you liken that look to?

SPEAKER_01 46:54

Well he so what's what's interesting is I think they've tried to make Rico. Can't make the sentence about to come out of my mouth. They've tried to make Rico less attractive than Tony. And they've done that by making him a little more portly.

SPEAKER_02 47:16

He's portly.

SPEAKER_01 47:17

Um he's not as hairy. No. Which personal preference, but you know, whatever. And he's he he reminds me of something, but I can't put my finger on what.

SPEAKER_02 47:27

Mmm, yeah, he's got more see this is the thing. When they're just fully hairy, the Muppets look like their own thing.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 47:36

Whereas he looks like more of a caricature of a person, which is more scary.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

And he's sort of dressed in a nice three-piece suit with a pocket watch. Pocket watch. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

It's not a look that I think they've done specifically for this because it doesn't look like he'd be at the Cope of Cabana, but you know, whatever. Go with it. We had that in the store cupboard.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

So then Rico goes a bit too far.

SPEAKER_02 48:04

There is a point at which all three dance together, isn't there?

SPEAKER_01 48:06

That's that's after what's about to happen. Oh, sorry, sorry. Sorry, I'm trying to get all the details in. So Rico goes a bit too far. Tony launches himself across the bar, as the lyrics tell us.

SPEAKER_03 48:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 48:22

And then these two Muppets begin a fight. And it's not normally in these situations I would expect something quite carefully choreographed. It doesn't look like it's that carefully choreographed. Until the point where Rico smashes a chair over him.

SPEAKER_02 48:40

Yeah. As I say, the dramatisation is on point. Yes. It's incredible. The dancing of the the the joy, the pure joy that I felt with Liza Manelli in between these two. It's just unbelievable. It's so funny.

SPEAKER_01 49:01

Because she's still there, and she's still like you've got two big hairy men fighting. I'm still looking at Liza, she's still there, she's still giving it everything. She's not getting lost. No. And then they dance together a bit. And then we hear some gunshots in the music. We never actually see a gun.

SPEAKER_03 49:20

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

We hear some gunshots in the music, and suddenly Tony is dead. It's at this point the energy really changes. Well, it does. When Tony dies, Liza tries to run towards Tony and Rico holds her back.

SPEAKER_02 49:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

But she is she's going for an Oscar.

SPEAKER_02 49:42

Yeah, yeah. In that full commitment.

SPEAKER_01 49:44

Full commitment.

SPEAKER_02 49:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:46

Then she returns to her table and we have a sort of um a transition which we discover from the the lyrics is the passing of time.

SPEAKER_02 49:58

Yes, right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:00

Because we're now 30 years later and things aren't going so well for Lola in the future.

SPEAKER_02 50:10

So the the Cobacabana's become a disco.

SPEAKER_01 50:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 50:14

And so there's like disco lights now.

SPEAKER_01 50:16

And Muppets.

SPEAKER_02 50:17

Just Muppets. And and Liza at this point is not singing the song. She it what the track is playing.

SPEAKER_01 50:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:26

But there are just shots of her just looking around, lost.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

Drunk. She's sort of stumbling around.

SPEAKER_02 50:33

She's it's she's clearly fallen on terribly hard times.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

Yes. And then we get a series of shots where I don't know how why I'm sure there's a name for these, but she sort of moves and a bit of her sort of lingers on screen as she and it it's designed to make her look disorientated and things like that. Yeah, yeah. But the effect is quite camp.

SPEAKER_02 50:57

It is camp, isn't it? The whole thing is so camp.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

Every single bit of it is just because then it when it finishes, Lola goes and sits back at the table.

SPEAKER_03 51:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:08

And then in the top corner of the screen, our original Liza, all black, Ava Peron hair, just walks into shot.

SPEAKER_02 51:16

Yeah. And she takes over the And sort of delivers the moral. Which again, I think we've said before that having two of yourself on screen is quite camp.

SPEAKER_01 51:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:27

And yeah, having her the serious one from the start, the serious Liza.

SPEAKER_01 51:31

Don't fall in love.

SPEAKER_02 51:34

Which is always is a really, really odd ending to that song. Yeah. Because it's like it's said in a different tone. Yeah. And um it was particularly odd at the funeral. Um but yeah, having her, the the the the one with the black roll neck do that is so good. It's so camp. The the the the you from a different you looking down from on high is a is a camp staple. I'm just putting it out there. It's great. Oh, go and watch that clip, honestly, because that's so good.

SPEAKER_01 52:09

Camp checklist. We've got excess.

SPEAKER_02 52:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 52:14

We've got Looking Down Upon Yourself. We've got two two giant hairy muppets.

SPEAKER_02 52:22

Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah. Serious topics treated in a non-serious way. Well, but you say that she is acting serious.

SPEAKER_01 52:33

I I guess committed to the I mean we said this in the last clip, but she's committed to the bit.

SPEAKER_02 52:39

It's the juxtaposition, isn't it? It's the this is she is serious about the emotion of Rico um Tony um dying. Yes. That's serious. Put against Muppets and all of this. It's the it's the sitting those two things alongside.

SPEAKER_01 52:55

It seems like someone has died, and what has actually happened is a man in a hair suit has laid down.

SPEAKER_02 53:03

Uh on the camp checklist, just colours as well. We've said that we've said this before, but like the boldness of the colour and just the you know uh unapologetic uh look of it, the aesthetics of it. It's got everything.

SPEAKER_01 53:18

It really has.

SPEAKER_02 53:20

Loved that.

SPEAKER_01 53:21

One of the things that I didn't mention in the bio is that in the 1980s she made an album with the Pet Shop Boys.

SPEAKER_02 53:28

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 53:29

And we are going to watch one of the singles from that album.

SPEAKER_00 53:34

Excellent.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

This is Liza Minnelli singing Don't Drop Bombs.

SPEAKER_00 53:37

It's Liza with a Z, not Lisa with the Nesk, Lisa with the Nesco Snuz.

SPEAKER_02 53:42

Oh the things you're bringing me this time are so good. They are so good.

SPEAKER_01 53:49

So this one, right, first of all I want to s start by saying she's never looked better. She is stunning in this video.

SPEAKER_02 53:58

Agree. Hard agree because there's there's one particular shot of her where she's like in her 80s finery, you know, she's got these huge earrings, makeup is beautiful, hair is absurd, and she just looks so good. Her skin is flawless. Oh, she looks great, yeah. There's also there's other shots. I don't I don't um because most of it is is is just chopping between different shots of her where she's in different outfits and whatever. I there is some sort of narrative going on with a man.

SPEAKER_01 54:33

So it's it starts off almost quite seriously, I think. It's black and white shots of her having quite aggressive arguments with a boyfriend.

SPEAKER_02 54:44

Yeah, he really pushes her.

SPEAKER_01 54:45

He's sort of pushing her at one point, he's he pins her down and um nasty, yeah. It it initially begins with loads of these shots with the occasional sort of interspersed shot of her in colour, which I think is the shot that you're talking about, where you just sort of see her. And she looks great. And she just looks stunning.

SPEAKER_03 55:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:04

And then when we get into the singing portion of the song, we go to various we've spoken before about like sort of the big white box, the sort of nondescript places. We go to various different locations. She's in a different outfit, kind of every time we see her in a new location.

SPEAKER_02 55:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:28

And it all gets a bit weird.

SPEAKER_02 55:30

Now listen, listen. The song is called Don't Drop Bombs.

SPEAKER_01 55:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 55:35

Which you would hear and think it's going to be some sort of anti-war message. I don't know the message of the song. There are almost no lyrics to this song.

SPEAKER_01 55:49

It's I think the message I think is kind of saying it's about truth bombs.

SPEAKER_02 55:55

Truth bombs. It's like don't drop it like you're like dropping a bomb on the relationship when you kind of So they may have men like don't drop bombs, you know, is a is a a a laudable political thing, but with that's actually we're making the song about something else, and that's kind of just in yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:16

Yeah. Let's talk about some of these vignettes.

SPEAKER_02 56:21

Okay, because um because there are some explosions. Yes. Which is when I w uh early on, which are when I thought we would still get anti-war message, which wasn't there at all. And I'm glad about because this song and this combination of people cannot support it. Um I think I've got two favourites I'll just go for. Yeah. One of them is a sort of singing in the rain style shot where she's got this huge piece of white fabric.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

Oh, I love this shot.

SPEAKER_02 56:53

And she's just barely keeping it round her modesty.

SPEAKER_01 56:57

Yes, there's a massive wind machine.

SPEAKER_02 56:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 57:00

She's sort of stood, one might say, awkwardly, trying to make sure that everything stays covered.

SPEAKER_02 57:06

Well, I think if you remember sitting in the rain, Sid Sharice does this shot, and she has an actual dress, and this is just a bit of fabric that is is up in the air, like being blown away from her. She's not having to, at the same time, fight to keep it over and you know, other places.

SPEAKER_01 57:26

I think my favourite part of the shot is when she spins into the fabric to be wearing more dress.

SPEAKER_02 57:35

To try and get more dress. Because it's it's only just it's only just working.

SPEAKER_01 57:40

We're in the danger zone, aren't we?

SPEAKER_02 57:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. We are. She still looks great, but you can see there's a struggle going on. My other favourite shop, uh, she's on a director's chair. She has a huge red, like leather jacket with huge shoulders. And she's got uh, you know, um this is a classic sort of thing where she's got the black tights, you can see her amazing pins, and she's sort of cavorting she's in the chair, but she's giving you every angle on the pins.

SPEAKER_01 58:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 58:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And um is that the point where she Is this the one with the bottle?

SPEAKER_01 58:15

Yes. Yes, so we we pull back and there's a table with a cocktail glass and a bottle on it.

SPEAKER_03 58:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 58:21

And at one point she kicks her leg and the the power of Liza, the bottle spontaneously explodes.

SPEAKER_02 58:30

Which is fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 58:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 58:32

Yeah, just uh just a great camp shot.

SPEAKER_01 58:36

Honourable mention also goes to the shot where she's wearing a fedora and has a jumper around her shoulders and is moving around clicking at the floor, and there are explosions wherever she clicks.

SPEAKER_02 58:49

Yes, again, great great use of a a click, you know.

SPEAKER_01 58:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:54

Um there's also at one point she does the m much lesser spotted dance move, which is Tyrannosaurus Rex jazz hands.

SPEAKER_01 59:04

I want to talk about the choreography in general.

SPEAKER_02 59:07

Okay, yeah, I think I've seen it.

SPEAKER_01 59:08

Because we're used to seeing Liza. Like, don't get me wrong, she's we're used to seeing her doing Fosse.

SPEAKER_03 59:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:15

And Fossey is angular and gorgeous, but it's is an odd way of doing it.

SPEAKER_02 59:21

It can feel really jarring to people, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:23

I think it's safe to say Fossey didn't choreograph this.

SPEAKER_02 59:26

No, he wasn't on this one.

SPEAKER_01 59:28

Because there's a lot of very um doing what the music says. And then there were a couple of moves that I've never seen before and have never seen since. One is uh grab the bottom of the jacket in the groin area with one hand in the air and do crazy knees.

SPEAKER_02 59:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 59:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 59:53

So it's almost like the Michael Jackson, you know, crotch grab.

SPEAKER_01 59:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 59:58

But you haven't got if you're a lady, or no, well if you're Liza, you haven't got something to grab there. Yes. You grab the bottom of your garment, and then just for some added flavour, start doing weird things with your knees.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:11

Yeah. My other favourite, which I've adopted, uh I don't go to parties often. I have bust this out, yeah. And that is uh, as you say, the T-Rex jazz hands. I I call it the the jazz hand breasts.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:32

It's one hand at the side of one breast, the other hand at the side of the other breasts. Yes. And we wiggle the fingers.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:39

Yeah, lovely.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:39

And we display the breasts like beautiful peacocks.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:43

Well, it's one of the as they should be.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:45

One of the most curious dance moves I've ever seen in my life.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:49

It really stands out in quite a, you know, uh uh a video that had a lot going on. It still stood out to me how odd that was.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:59

We also have in the middle what I'm gonna refer to it as the breakdown. I'm not talking about anyone's I'm not emotional. No anyone's emotional state. Where we sort of f just flick between shots of bright lights and Liza's eyes and occasional dance flourishes.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:20

Yes, it's um there's there's definitely something very 80s about this, like the way they would structure a video, it's just lots of moving images. So we just flick between different things, then that'll cause people to keep watching.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:39

And then we have the ending, of course, which concludes our narrative where she has packed her suitcase, she picks her suitcase up, she walks out of her door, sees the man out there. Yeah, bad man, puts the suitcase down in the doorway, walks past him, clicks her fingers, and suddenly that's all in colour.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:04

Is that a Wizard of Oz reference?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:06

I never even thought about that actually.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:08

Probably not, probably just very limited effects in the 80s.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:11

I I mean, I my assumption, if I'm looking for a narrative, yeah, is that she's leaving the black and white of the bad relationship and stepping into her own colour.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:21

Absolutely, I think that's fair.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:23

But why is she leaving her suitcase behind?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:25

Good question. Don't know about that one. That was unclear.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:30

I let's move on.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:34

We said earlier that in the year 2000 she was told that she may never walk, talk, sing, or read again. In 2002, she appeared on the David Letterman show.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:45

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:46

And we're about to head into some proper old school classical musical theatre with this.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:54

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:55

And some classic Liza as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:57

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:58

This is Liza singing some people from Gypsy.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:02

It's Liza with the Zenat, Lisa with an esc, Lisa with an escal snubs.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:07

So what you've got to remember with this clip, it's uh not necessarily the most uh technically accurate performance, but it's been less than 18 months uh since she was told she might not walk or sing again.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:23

I think it's incredible, bearing that in mind. I also think if you i if you wanted to study like how to perform like Liza, it this is this feels really pure Liza. Like it has so many of the Liza Minnelli isms. Before she even opens her mouth to sing, she's given you about four facial expressions. She's so like bursting with energy to sing this to you. Which considering you're saying like you know, she's had a difficult time leading up to this, she yeah, she's she's right back to the place of wanting to give you everything.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:00

Yeah, completely.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:01

And I she's she's quite um a long-limbed person, I think. Like the arms are like spread wide, the the the fingers for the jazz hands are wide, she's she's giving you the she does this thing when it's an emotional moment where the character sort of asking something where her eye line hits the the like the you know the the it in a theatre it would be like the the circle or whatever uh her eye line like hits that high sort of thing and you see she has these huge eyes and you see the whites at the bottom and it's really I don't know you engage with that kind of um big open puppy dog eye face.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:44

It goes back to what she was saying about like I am singing to you. There is something about her face that actually like really makes you believe that.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:52

You feel that, yeah totally.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:55

I I wanted to include this one because I think there is something camp in getting up and doing it.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:03

At a time when people have probably counted you out.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:07

Oh, I yeah, I get that. I absolutely do get that. When other people would sort of say, like, oh you're too old, or you've you've gone through this and you're not at the level anymore, and yeah, fighting back against that and doing it anyway. No, I totally get that.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:24

And yeah, and like I say, it's it's not the greatest her voice has ever sounded.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:29

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:30

It's not bad. Like I'm not, you know No, definitely not.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:33

And the as I say, the performance level is high. It's just yeah, she's yeah, she's not at the height of her powers. Um I think No, I think you're so right. Like there there's something about maybe people would prefer if you just went away because you're not young or you're not as uh like fit to do things as as you once were. It's like we'd rather not see you and just putting yourself out there. Still is really great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:01

Because I mean, you know, the it was the the dawn of a new millennium. A lot of people probably saw what she did as quite old fashioned.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:10

And quite outdated.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:12

And I think there is something really camp about going well, you may think it's outdated and out of fashion, but actually there are still a hell of a lot of people out there that want to see it and want to support me. And and also, who are you to say what's outdated?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:28

I think Camp quite often dwells in the things that are like not good taste. And so that can be things that are, you know, like out of fashion. It can be things that are, you know, people are uncomfortable with. It uh it can be things that are just not like uh yeah, not fa not fashionable. Like we want to see someone, you know, we want to see someone young and who's just had a song in the charts, whatever, and doing something from another age that's just classically you and I don't know, there's something about the end, which is not really part of it, her performance is finished, and David Letterman walks over. There's something about her stood next to him which makes me realise how camp she is because he's just a boring man in a suit. He's very straight-laced, very straight-laced, and she's trying to give him the hugs, she's trying, she's like, she's giving everything, and you sort of you see them against each other and you realise. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:29

In 2010, she made a cameo appearance in the film Sex in the City 2.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:35

No, I haven't seen it.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:37

Haven't you? I haven't seen even the first one. She was brought in as to officiate the wedding of the two gay characters.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:45

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:46

And after and after they were married, she treated them to a little performance.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:53

Wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:54

Are you ready for this? Probably not.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:56

It's Liza with the Z not Lisa with the Nesk, it's Lisa with the Nesco Snuz.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:01

So that was Liza Minelli performing Single Ladies originally recorded by Beyonce. Yes. How did you feel about that?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:09

Um I don't know how to feel.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:13

No, I uh um it's very it's definitely camp.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:20

It's definitely camp.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:22

There are different layers to this. Yes. So I think it's camp when someone who is considered old school does something that is considered new.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:35

Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:36

Because I think the song was fairly new at that point. It wasn't haven't been out long. Been out long enough, but you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:44

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:45

And it's Beyonce is kind of seen as cool and Yeah Yeah, I and Liza is not.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:53

They they're definitely from two worlds, aren't they? And yes, bringing them together is fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:00

And uh so she's she's doing the the dance from the video, which uh she's doing the dance from the video, but this is where this other layer comes in because when you watch that video, it is heavily inspired by a piece that Bob Fossey choreographed. And obviously Liza is a Bob Fossey girl.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:23

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:24

So she's actually kind of going It's come full circle. It's sort of come full circle, and it's almost a bit like I see you, Beyonce. I see what you're doing, and I've been doing it longer than you.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:34

Well, I do like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:36

I also enjoy that because she's obviously it's the in the videos the three women, so she's got two dancers with her who are dressed exactly like her.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:45

Yes, it's three Lizas.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:46

Yes, and um I enjoy that they don't get a single close-up on their faces.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:52

I imagine if you've paid for Liza, you're gonna want to get every shot that you can.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:59

But but even Beyoncé, you see the others.

unknown 1:10:01

True.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:03

Um and also I like that they're wearing exactly the same thing. Sometimes when somebody's older, they'll dress them slightly differently, like they need to, you know, no they're they're obviously a lot younger, but sh that she's doing the same dance.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:17

Students well, yeah, I think what the issue we're skirting around here is that she's wearing hot pants.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:22

Yes, she is. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, she's and as I say, I wore them when I was twenty one to be her, and I wouldn't consider it now.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:30

She I think so this was twenty ten, so she would be sixty something. She'd be in the sixties.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:38

2010 was it?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:40

That's a long that's a lot longer ago than I thought. But single ladies was everywhere then, I remember that. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:47

Uh no, well, I um oh it is camp, isn't it? But they this do you know what I think I don't like so much about this? Is it's almost like they've they've ordered a takeaway. They're like, could you could you just deliver us some camp, Liza?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:04

Yeah, it it feels like it's deliberate camp.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:07

Deliberate camp? I don't like deliberate camp.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:09

It's oh we're gonna we're gonna have a gay wedding.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:12

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:13

What can we do? Let's make it camp. Absolutely. How can we make it camp?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:18

Get Liza.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:19

Get Liza in. Yeah. Yeah, make her do a modern dance number. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think that's what I don't like so much about it, but I'm I'm not arguing that it's not camp, and I uh It's definitely camp. And I do I do love a hilariously bad movie, and uh this feels like it has the hallmarks.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:37

Uh I I also just want to point out, uh if you have been to watch the clip, um there's one line of it that's been dubbed. And I can't tell why, because I haven't dubbed the song, but when she says the words good luck, yes, it's dubbed. There's a there's a big dub over the top of it. Which sort of adds to the campness, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:57

Who cares?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:58

We're moving on to our final clip now, and we are travelling back in time to Liza at the height of her powers.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:07

Oh, fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:08

The clip that we're about to watch, I have watched probably an unhealthy amount. I watch this clip if I need to be cheered up. I watch this clip whenever it randomly pops into my head. So this is Liza at the 100th anniversary of the Statue of Liberty singing New York, New York.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:32

It's Liza with a Z-Nat, Lisa with the Neskuts, Lisa with the Neskals Snuz.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:36

I so that's my first time ever seeing that. I genuinely got goosebumps in that. It's and I didn't expect to have that reaction, it's absolutely incredible. So this sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:52

I was gonna say a lot of people now associate New York, New York with Frank Sinatra. I think it's Frank Sinatra's song.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:58

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:59

Um but she was the first person to record it for a film that she was in called New York, New York.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:05

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:06

Um and apparently he always used to say, Oh no, it's Liza's song, I'm just borrowing it.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:14

Wow. I so I knew that she was in the film New York, New York. I don't know if I've seen it, but I yeah, absolutely associate it with him. But that's stopping right now. Yes. Because that performance is so incredible. So you said it's the hundredth anniversary of the Statue of Liberty.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:32

Yeah, they've put on this concert. But I mean they're in a stadium. It's a stadium concert.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:38

So this is the main thing you notice is this is a huge gig.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:41

It's gigantic.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:42

I don't know how many people are there, but this is massive. And you have so I assume there are lots of acts that were playing. So you assume like not everybody is there just to see Liza, they're there for this big event. And so there might have been some people at the start who weren't like, you know, pure Liza fans. By the end, her performance is so amazing that they're like chanting her name, they're all like there is a it's her performance is so good. There's this swell of feeling from the crowd that I felt watching the video. It's absolutely incredible. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:23

I think what's really interesting is they're in a stadium and in terms of production values, it's her on a stage in the middle.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:34

Like when you think of stadium shows now, like if you look at I don't know, take that or a touring at the moment with the circus, and it's a stadium show, and it's all big moving parts and sets and things like that. This is a woman and a voice, yeah. And a red sequin jumpsuit.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:54

A couple of lights.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:55

Couple of lights.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:56

And it just blows your socks off.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:58

It it does, it genuinely does. I've never thought that that song I particularly liked that much. I thought it was alright. And I just absolutely blown away by the the power that she delivers it with, and yeah, the way she has the biggest crowd in the palm of her hand. Like they're so like on board with it. It's incredible, it's really amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:23

It's a massive spectacle that somehow feels quite intimate.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:31

Yes. That that feeling of that you talked about of she's singing just to you. Yeah, how do you do that to that many people? It's incredible, but you feel it. You feel that. I I am blown away by that. I do because when you said it's the hundredth um anniversary of the Statue of Liberty, there was part of me, I think maybe um a sort of Englishness that thought that was quite silly. Um because I you know, everything we have is a lot older than that. And um I thought that's a fairly ridiculous event in itself. Um that sounds quite camp, but actually that maybe there is a campness to trying to do these kind of um big events like celebratory events often employ quite odd um you know, ribbon cuttings or whatever. It's all quite camp nonsense, isn't it? And and so I was sort of a bit dismissive about that idea, but I love I love the fact that that's what it's for, and she's you know, she's really singing with her whole heart.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:41

Uh it's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:43

And it is camp.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:44

It is camp.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:46

She well when you said it's a huge spectacle, but uh you know, for for for each person, I was like, I thought you were gonna say it it's a huge spectacle in a woman, which is kind of what she is. She's the whole event herself.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:01

Well yeah, she is, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:03

Um yeah. Wow. What a clip. What a clip. That that you're bringing some amazing things.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:09

I th I thought we'd end with that because I remember going to family weddings as a kid and they always played New York, New York at the end of the night. It was always Frank Sinatra, but um but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:21

In your head you were hearing Liza.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:23

In my Well no, because I didn't hear that until a long time after I'd heard Frank Sinatra. I didn't know that it was her song until later in my life.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:33

Well, don't you know, don't let me get on a like feminist bandwagon again. But it is there is an erasure thing. I know Frank Sinatra's a huge star and whatever, but yeah, there is an erasure thing that happens with me. When you're I'm watching that, I'm thinking about like Freddie Mercury at Wembley. Like that those type of performances that are one in a million, they get remembered. Liza doing New York at the 100th anniversary of the Statue of Liberty hasn't gone down in history, but part of that is because of things that we write off as being not, you know, not cool, not worthy, whatever. And yeah, camp.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:11

I think also there is something to be said with her because of her substance issues and her health issues, we remember what she's become rather than what she was. I there's there's definitely a gender thing at play. I'm not dismissing that, but I also think with someone like Freddie, actually Freddie was incredible and then suddenly died.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:39

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:40

And so people remember him at his incredible. Whereas with Liza, you know, we think about the marriage to David Guest, we think about the There's so much that she's done in her life.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and some of it is like the personal life stuff that really maybe distracts from how talented she was and is. Um and yeah, there's definitely there's like there's a dilution of the legacy because it goes off in all these sort of tangents. But yeah, I think the sort of pure celebration of her talent, yeah, it's unfortunate if that gets lost in a kind of um yeah, thinking about her in a kind of silly way. That's one of the dangers of camp, I guess. We haven't talked about any dangers, but like is that there are certain people who will write it off, and I guess that's why I'm bringing up gender, because we've talked about camp in terms of gender, it's like a an association there, and like because it's because it's associated with femme or um you know, gay or queer communities, it's it's written off in the out of patriarchy, which is why I went on my rant about the godfather and cabaret, is because those are the things that are held up in the canon of of like this is what is worth your attention, and and you know, that isn't being so oh god, these have been amazing clips. This is so good.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:02

And there's I'll be honest with you, there are so many more. Yeah, we we have to revisit Liza at some point.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:09

There's some more, some more will happen.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:11

Yes, definitely, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:14

Woo!

SPEAKER_01 1:20:15

So that was the Liza episode of Camp Icons. Did you enjoy that one?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:20

Oh, so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:22

I was oh I I love Liza.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:26

It was, yeah, there's so much to talk about, and these the this is this is one of my favourite episodes that we've done.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:33

Next week, we're doing something a bit different, aren't we? Yes. So so far we have covered camp icons in terms of people, and we've looked at people's lives and we've watched clips and things that they've done. Uh, but for the next few weeks, we are going to be looking at uh films, TV episodes, things that are iconically camp on their own merits, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:02

Iconically camp isn't as good a title for a podcast, is it?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:06

No, no, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:08

Iconically camp? No, no, no, no. No. We're just tripped up saying it. But yes, we're gonna we're gonna probe some camp properties. Should I not say probe?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:18

Say whatever you like. If you have enjoyed today's episode, please follow us on social media. We are at Camp Icons Podcast on Instagram and TikTok. And Liz, I've got a surprise for you this week. Have you? I haven't told you this so far. The last time that I brought up the Facebook page, I said I thought we had one person following it.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:44

I checked last night, and we now have over a thousand people following it. I know.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:50

I thought you were gonna say two. No.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:54

So we do have a Facebook page, and I am gonna keep plugging it.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:58

I'm gonna stop calling it for the elderly.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:01

Our Facebook page is Camp Icons Podcast, perhaps as you would be expecting. Uh thank you very much for sticking with us. If you've enjoyed it, please like, subscribe, do all of those things, tell friends, family, enemies, tell anyone, anyone, we'll have anyone listen to this. Yeah, we don't care. No, we don't care. Thank you very much, Liz, for a great Thank you, Nick. Thank you for a great uh a great little series of icons. And we will be back with more people in the future. But from next week, yes, we will we will be. Shall I tell you what we're looking at next week?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:37

Oh, please do.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:39

It is a half an hour made for television musical.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:44

Set in a laundrette. It's called Love Cycle. And if you actually if you would like to go and watch it before next week, so you're prepped, um, I highly recommend going and checking that out. It stars Camp Icon Patty Lupone.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:02

Oh goodness me.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:04

This is very exciting.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:06

Uh so that's all from us this week. Thank you very much, and we'll see you next week. Bye.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:12

Stay camp.