Deep Dive: Whatever Happened To Baby Jane?

It's a bumper episode on this week’s deep dive - we’re watching a camp cornerstone with warring sisters, offscreen feuds, creepy dolls and Nick dropping a truth bomb... yes it's Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? starring legendary Hollywood icons Bette Davis and Joan Crawford!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:01

Hello and welcome to Camp Icons. I'm Nick.

SPEAKER_01 0:04

And I'm Liz.

SPEAKER_06 0:04

Oh, in it art.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

It is a bit art.

SPEAKER_06 0:07

It's quite warm, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 0:08

We're very warm.

SPEAKER_06 0:09

We're very warm. We're in Liz's spare room and we've had to shut the window because her neighbours are in the car, then we're dedicated to making this podcast at least listenable. Well, yes. That much we can promise. This week we're looking at something that is, I would say, almost notoriously camp.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Ooh, it is notorious, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 0:35

It's regularly features on sort of most camp films, most camp performances. We are watching Whatever Happened to Baby Jane. So, whatever happened to Baby Jane.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Yes, very excited to watch this.

SPEAKER_06 1:06

It stars two Beamoths of Old Hollywood.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

I'm sure they'd love that you referred to them as that.

SPEAKER_06 1:14

We've got Joan Crawford and we've got Is it Bette or is it Betty?

SPEAKER_01 1:19

It is Betty Davis.

SPEAKER_06 1:20

Betty Davis.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

And she apparently would get annoyed because British people would always try and say Bet.

SPEAKER_06 1:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

And it is definitely Betty.

SPEAKER_06 1:28

I don't want her annoyed at me. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

She'd be annoyed from beyond the grave, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:31

Yes, I uh I wouldn't like to be on the wrong side of Betty Davis. The problem with Betty Davis is whenever I say the name Betty, I just think of some mothers do have them. I was gonna go say you go a bit Frank Spencer. A bit Frank Spencer, yeah, which I don't think gives her the respect that she would wish to command.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

No.

SPEAKER_06 1:49

All Betty.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

They certainly, as two performers, are even outside of this film, I'm terrified of both.

SPEAKER_06 2:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

So when they're trying to be scary, I'm genuinely scared watching this.

SPEAKER_06 2:05

So before we even go into this, they had quite a long-standing rivalry.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 2:11

They were not fans of each other.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

No, because of course, being like both very successful stars, they're often, I guess, like up for the same you know, they they're they're both trying to be the biggest star ever, I guess. And so they're rivals.

SPEAKER_06 2:27

Yes, they're absolutely rivals, and they were very happy to sort of sling some mud in the press, I think.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Yeah, I think people just did that better. Um they did.

SPEAKER_06 2:38

It might be a bit too early to say this, but there was they were gonna star in sort of an unofficial follow-up to this film together.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Oh right.

SPEAKER_06 2:46

It was called Hush Hush, Sweet Charlotte. And Joan ended up not doing it, and they got Olivia de Haviland.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

De Haviland, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:56

De Haviland in to do that. And Joan said of the casting, I'm so glad she's replacing me. She needs the work.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

That's wonderful. Yeah, great stuff.

SPEAKER_06 3:08

I mean, and that just sort of that's just the tip of the iceberg, really. But that's they were two very formidable women.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Yeah, absolutely. That comes across.

SPEAKER_06 3:19

Yes, yes, it does. So whatever happened to Baby Jane, should we uh should we dive right in?

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Yeah, well firstly, I was I wanted to like say one of the things I knew about this is that it was uh classified as a certain type of film. Yes. So you could call it a horror film or a psychological thriller, something like that. But it's also known known for starting the genre known as psychobiddy.

SPEAKER_06 3:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Which is I I guess is offensive.

SPEAKER_06 3:47

It is. It's not as offen well it's probably equally offensive as the other sort of term that I read for it, which was the hag genre.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Ha hagsploitation, I've heard.

SPEAKER_06 3:58

Hag exploitation.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Yes, I've heard that as well. So there's all kind of offensive names to sort of say this is a film which we put women who we would usually consider too old to see on screen.

SPEAKER_05 4:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Which is is crazy as a like a thing. They were they were incredibly like big stars from like the 30s. This is 1962.

SPEAKER_06 4:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

So this is sort of like their career has died down, and this like This was supposed to be like a regeneration. A regeneration for them.

SPEAKER_06 4:28

And I think it was, I think it was quite successful.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Yeah, definitely. They definitely both made more films after this. Yes. Um But I do think it's really funny that they they tr they uh the the brains of the sixties are trying to classify this genre and they're like, what can we call it? Psycho-biddy.

SPEAKER_03 4:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

That's I mean, it is offensive on in one way, but it's also quite fun to me. Like if you told me we're gonna watch some psycho biddy films, I'm like, I'm sad, I'm waiting. Let's watch them.

SPEAKER_06 4:55

But I think it it instantly this leans us into camp because we expect an older lady or certainly at that time to be like a nice old grandmother.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Or the helpful maid or Yes, we have a certain like n you know, niche that they fall into. Yes. We don't expect the kind of full range of performances from an older woman.

SPEAKER_03 5:23

No.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

And this is definitely unexpected. If people haven't seen it, they might have seen little bits of it. I think you can't get the full effect from whatever you've seen, copied or spoofed or whatever. When you actually watch it, I think it's genuinely powerful like performances.

SPEAKER_06 5:41

I'm gonna drop my first truth bomb on you now.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

Okay, go on.

SPEAKER_06 5:44

I didn't really enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Oh no!

SPEAKER_00 5:48

I'm devastated.

SPEAKER_06 5:51

There are things about it that I like, don't get me wrong. Right. As a complete film, there are things I do not enjoy about it.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Oh my goodness, I'm genuinely surprised.

SPEAKER_06 6:04

There are places where I do not think it's a well-made film. Oh and we'll we'll get to them.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

I disagree.

SPEAKER_06 6:11

But I I think when I explain them to you, you you might come around. You might not, because I don't think I will. You're very strong-willed.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

I think to be honest, the f the way it starts is my least favourite part.

SPEAKER_06 6:28

Fair.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Because we have to go back to a flashback, essentially. Or we set things up.

SPEAKER_06 6:33

This is this is one of my issues straight out of the game. We don't get one flashback. We have to go to two different flashbacks before we get to the story.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Yes, that's true.

SPEAKER_06 6:44

Just sort of it sort of overinflates it in a way at the start, I think.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Overinflates is an interesting choice of words because I think it's deliberately inflating.

SPEAKER_06 6:56

Fair.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

I so we we go back to it starts 1917.

SPEAKER_06 7:00

It starts in 1917 with a child crying at a jack in the box.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Yes. So we're meeting child star Baby Jane Hudson.

SPEAKER_06 7:10

She's sold out.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Yes. She's a big star in a sort of like vaudeville way. And she does this very I wrote precocious tap dancing child. Yeah. A very sort of annoying child act.

SPEAKER_06 7:23

It's a bit Shirley Temple, it's it's a bit um It has that kind of like Baby June.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Yeah. Yeah. Sacharin sweet kind of thing. Where she they the the crowd are they're in love with her, all these kids and mums and whatever, and they beg for her her song that she always does, I've written a letter to Daddy.

SPEAKER_06 7:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Which is it's oh it's it's diabolical this song.

SPEAKER_06 7:52

We've also got in the wings oh yes, just to set up both of the sisters, we've got a very, very severe looking brunette child. Yes. Looking at Baby Jane quite judgingly from the wings, and who I assume is the mum.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

They ne I don't think they ever actually specify that she's never talk about the mum, but yeah, the the the the mum it must be is standing there with Blanche. We don't get to know it's Blanche or have any dialogue from her really at the start. She's just but I do think she gives good Joan Crawford face, that young actress. She does.

SPEAKER_06 8:26

She's very good at carrying the the Crawford The overshadowed sister.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

You know, she she does really well. Would you like to give a rendition of I've written a letter to Daddy?

SPEAKER_06 8:39

I wouldn't.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Um The thing that struck me this is heaven, but Daddy's dead in the song, just in case she haven't.

SPEAKER_06 8:49

The song is coming out amplified.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 8:52

But she has absolutely no microphone.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

No, it I think it's quite clear that that's not a child singer. It's like an adult doing a voice.

SPEAKER_06 9:00

Yes, and it it's it's credited as the Right. Someone's credit is the singing voice of child Baby Jane.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

But what we've what we've set up is that she's this huge star, yes, Baby Jane. And they all love her for her sweet personality, but then when she comes off stage, she demands, she throws a tantrum demanding an ice cream.

SPEAKER_06 9:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

And then In front of the public. In front of the public, and there's mothers very disapproving that my child spoke like that, I'm, you know, spanker or whatever. Very disapproving from the crowd. And um we also But the the dad, who's part of the act somehow, tries to let peace make, and he's gonna get the ice cream. Oh, it is very hot, you know.

SPEAKER_03 9:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

He offers one to Blanche, the quiet sister who we haven't heard from, and she very severely says, I don't want anything.

SPEAKER_06 9:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

So that's your two sisters' personalities set up.

SPEAKER_06 9:55

And then he shouts at her for not wanting anything.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

Yes, that's all that's also set up.

SPEAKER_06 10:01

We also in this sequence first see the creepy doll Baby Jane.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 10:08

So they're selling dolls of Baby Jane as merchandise.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Which are life size.

SPEAKER_06 10:16

Life size and terrifying.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Yes. I I think the guy selling them says that they're genuine hair.

SPEAKER_06 10:22

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Which I don't want to think about where they got that hair.

SPEAKER_06 10:26

No, I don't like that.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

Oh no. I don't really like that they're selling like dolls that they say are exact replicas of a child, but I don't think we should go too far down that.

SPEAKER_06 10:35

I no, I don't think we should either.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

They're selling them to children at this.

SPEAKER_06 10:39

Yes. This this portion of Flashback concludes with Blanche saying, I won't forget.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

Yes. In quite a menacing Just so you get it, just so you know she won't forget. Because I think there's there's some suggestion there that she's gonna be a bigger star, which we don't know why.

SPEAKER_06 11:00

In this bit, no. No. There's no sort of indication of she doesn't have any star quality. Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

But the next part 1935 is we're going into like Hollywood now and we get a clip from an actual Betty Davis movie that men are slatic. Yes. Well it's it's like it's you know from the 30s, so it's genuinely Betty Davis when she's younger. They they're saying that she's doing a terrible accent, yeah, that her acting is terrible. I I don't think it is, it's not a particularly memorable scene from one of her movies.

SPEAKER_06 11:35

No, uh it makes me wonder how Betty Davis felt about this.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Do you know what? I think she was a pro and she just she probably slated her own movies and she's like, Yeah, take that one, that one's terrible.

SPEAKER_06 11:46

Maybe.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

I can imagine. Because she would have been making so many films.

SPEAKER_06 11:51

Yes, this is true. She's part of the studio system.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

You know, she would have been like, Oh, I made four pictures that year, that was a terrible one. Don't you have that one? That's fine. But it's it's it's not it's not noticeably bad, I don't think.

SPEAKER_06 12:03

No, I didn't think so.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

No. We've just got to set up the idea that she's not a good actress.

SPEAKER_06 12:09

Yes. And that Blanche is a good actress.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Yes, so things have fate has twisted around.

SPEAKER_06 12:16

Who has a contract clause that for every picture Blanche makes, they have to make a film with Baby Jane. They're still calling her Baby Jane.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Yes. Even though she's an adult woman.

SPEAKER_06 12:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

That does seem like an unlikely clause.

SPEAKER_06 12:32

Yes. I don't know who is agreeing to that clause because films aren't cheap.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

No, and famously at that time, like women were quite like the actresses were quite exploited, and you know, even though um lots of them got like rich and famous, they didn't have as much power behind the scenes and whatever. But it it works for the the the movie. It works for this movie.

SPEAKER_06 12:54

It has to it has to work for the and I I do also wonder if there's it's sort of a commentary on how good Blanche was.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 13:03

And how much sway she may have had. Because I can't imagine she went straight in and went, Oh, you have to take my sister too.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Yeah, I think they're trying to really set up the idea that Blanche is the biggest star possible. That's why she's got the sort of power to have that clause. We don't actually see Joan Crawford at at this point, so we don't know what Blanche's acting is like at this point.

SPEAKER_03 13:28

No.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

We only see them being rude about baby Jane and sort of yeah, being annoyed that they have to keep moot making these pictures.

SPEAKER_03 13:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Um and so they they they I I end that bit. I think they say they're gonna talk to Blanche about changing this.

SPEAKER_06 13:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Right? So then we get a very important scene, which is very important. One of my favourite parts.

SPEAKER_06 13:53

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

Which is the in inverted commas accident.

SPEAKER_06 13:58

The accident, yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

So we're in a car, and it's obvious that the two sisters are in the car because we've got two women who are dressed all dressed up. But we don't see which is which, so we don't see who is driving.

SPEAKER_06 14:09

No. And we just see lots of shots of feet.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Feet, yeah. Yes. But what I love about it is it's shot in a way that you don't shoot things anymore.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

No.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Which is like the the the depth of the shot. You can see these sparkly shoes stepping on the gas or the brake or whatever. You've got this like velvet wrap of the like round the cuff as as the hand changes the gear. It's like it zooms you in on these little bits to go, oh, we're telling you a story, but we're not gonna tell you all of it yet.

SPEAKER_06 14:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

I love this type of thing.

SPEAKER_06 14:43

So basically it's very sort of Agatha Christie murder mystery.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

It is a mystery.

SPEAKER_06 14:48

Slash Midsummer Murders, where you get the shot of a gloved hand.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

I think Midsummer Murders do do this, yeah. But I think it is from like that kind of noir sort of time. Um and yeah, I love I love that they do it like this. So we we know that Blanche's got this sister in tow and that and that, you know, Jane, baby Jane is not as successful as her sister, so there's resentment on both sides, so we don't I think at that time when we see the accident, there's a thought in my mind that it might be Blanche trying to bump off Jane because this is like her kid sister is like a millstone round her neck, but then actually it could also be Jane because she's resentful of her success.

SPEAKER_04 15:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

So at that point we don't see, we just see one of them deliberately drives into the other one.

SPEAKER_06 15:43

Yeah. And disappears from the car.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Disappears.

SPEAKER_06 15:47

Yeah, they're no longer sat in the driver's seat. Once the crash has happened, they're gone, they're out. We get crashed out gates.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

Yes. And we don't know we don't know how badly anybody's hurt at this point.

SPEAKER_06 15:57

No, we we do get the creepy doll come back with a caved-in forehead.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

Oh, again, I love this because the credits fly out at this point. Yes. They fly out of the cracked skull of the baby Jane doll.

SPEAKER_06 16:08

Yeah, there's not a person to be seen once the crash has happened.

SPEAKER_01 16:11

No.

SPEAKER_06 16:11

No.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

No, it's all a mystery.

SPEAKER_06 16:14

Then we come to the present. Oh well, it says yesterday.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Yesterday really made me laugh.

SPEAKER_06 16:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

As a time.

SPEAKER_06 16:24

Because it's not yesterday.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

No, it's not yesterday. Um I'm watching this film, you know, so many years later. Yesterday's really funny. You don't I don't think you see that now, yesterday.

SPEAKER_06 16:35

You don't, but also why are you so Why does it have to be yesterday? Why not today?

SPEAKER_01 16:39

I don't know. Because it doesn't I guess the film doesn't do anything with that. But the film seems to take place over more than one day.

SPEAKER_06 16:46

Oh, absolutely. It takes place over about a week, I think.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 16:50

Right, then we get to my first badly made film, Claxon. Okay, right. Uh a woman enters her house, and she and her daughter do a lot of exposition.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Yes, okay.

SPEAKER_06 17:03

They're neighbours of Blanche and Joan. No, Blanche is Joan. They're neighbours of Blanche and Jane.

SPEAKER_02 17:11

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 17:12

And we hear that Jane caused the accident injuring Blanche.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 17:18

And it's just an overblown scene of talking. If you would sh all I need, all I need is a shot of Blanche in the wheelchair.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

Yeah, then I know.

SPEAKER_06 17:31

And I've got everything that this woman says.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Yes. I I I hear you. Yeah. And to be honest, in this film, the side characters do do a lot of exposition. It's not the only time this happens. No, it's not. And these characters are not particularly like the nosy neighbour, the mum, comes back a few times, but the daughter is almost like totally, you know, not needed.

SPEAKER_06 17:55

No. I believe the daughter was played by the real life daughter of the director.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

No, it's Betty Davis' daughter. Is it? Yeah, I'm sure it is. I'm sure it's Betty Davis' actual daughter in it.

SPEAKER_06 18:06

There's some sort of nepotism connection. And it absolutely acts. No. But also she doesn't need to. Because also she's go it's.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Because the dialogue is terrible. Yeah. Yeah. No, I I do hear what you're saying.

SPEAKER_06 18:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

At this point, I have to say, I really like bad movies.

SPEAKER_06 18:27

Fair. I like bad movies. And this is the thing, I'm not sat here going, I will never watch this film again. There are just some things I have issues with.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

I I get it.

SPEAKER_06 18:37

There's a there's a much bigger topic that we will come to that I have an issue with. Okay. Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

So one of the things that we get in the exposition, apart from the the accident, is which wasn't an accident, is the he this week they're they're showing on TV all of Joan Crawford's character, Blanche, her old movies. Yes. So this is like a a renaissance for her because you know lots of people are watching them on TV. And you know, at this time things weren't like shown on immediately on TV, so it's years potentially since people watch them. Yes. And so they're doing this big thing, and there's obviously a lot of talk about it. Because we see people ask Jane, you know, like the the neighbour says, Oh, we've been enjoying our movies, and later on in the bank, I think they say, Oh, we've been watching the movies or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

So, in terms of the resentment between the two sisters, this week when they're showing them is like a key time.

SPEAKER_06 19:31

Yes. And we should say we've joined them at the right time.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Yes. Blanche, played by Joan Joan Crawford, cannot go out, so she is unaware of what people are reacting. She's watching her own films.

SPEAKER_06 19:43

Yes, so she's in a wheelchair. She's in a wheelchair. We'll get that out of the way. Yes. Um, and for some reason she lives on the first floor.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

Upstairs. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 19:54

I would venture she has enough money to convert a downstairs room into a bedroom for herself just to make life a bit easier, but it's so the film can happen.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

But also because her sister, Betty Davis, Baby Jane, is controlling her.

SPEAKER_06 20:10

Yes, she is.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 20:12

But if Blanche had just converted a downstairs room, it would be a lot more difficult.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 20:19

For for Baby Jane to control her.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

I know I see what you're saying, but I think it I It is so the film can happen.

SPEAKER_06 20:25

Um you know, and I don't want to I I really don't want to sit here and pick everything apart because I think Well, I also think it's actually it speaks to like the sort of life they anticipated people who are disabled having. True.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

In that, you know, that her her bed has got the things so that she can pull herself up and whatever. And they didn't they they sort of had a a lower expectation for what you were going to be able to achieve. She's she's obviously like I I think we would say like paraplegic or whatever. She has no she cannot stand or or move her legs.

SPEAKER_06 20:57

No.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

So therefore, there's kind of like yes, I agree it would be better if she had a downstairs room. But like I think part of it is that decisions have been made around her that put her in a place of control. Yes. And her disability is is part of it.

SPEAKER_06 21:15

Next up, the campometer is going ding ding ding. Yes. Because we first see adult Betty Davis.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Yes. Who What did you think about that?

SPEAKER_06 21:27

She is overpainted.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 21:30

And she's got ringlets.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 21:33

I put like a Hollywood Miss Haversham.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Yes, it is a bit like that.

SPEAKER_06 21:37

She's very much styled after the baby Jane that we see in the opening flashback.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Yeah, it's kind of at this point, it's like she hasn't ever let go of that. She's not fully in costume, but she just hasn't ever let go of Baby Jane. And yeah, the overpainting on the face, the the makeup is horrific. But you know, I've got A soft spot for older women who paint their face like like uh six inches thick. I really have a soft spot for them.

SPEAKER_06 22:10

I adore what she's doing with her face, don't get me wrong.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

She's great, and I think she's doing what uh I I I couldn't actually think of the word because I was like, she's stomping, but she's stomping in a way where she is also dragging her feet.

SPEAKER_03 22:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

It's like she has the whole body is like, ugh, I hate this life. The second you see her, you know everything. I she's so good in this film. And I think one of the first things she says when we see we finally see Blanche and Jane interact, the first thing she says is, Then you're an idiot. So just if anyone was confused about where the relationship is.

SPEAKER_06 22:49

Well, my next note is Jane isn't pleasant.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

No, she's not a nice person.

SPEAKER_06 22:55

And when Blanche buzzes, she's got a buzzer system within the house to call her uh she says you miserable bitch, to the buzzer.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

These are the things I like because it's like she's fully like pissed off, cannot be bothered, yeah, hates looking after this sister, hates everything. Oh, it's so good.

SPEAKER_06 23:15

And as we've said, it leans into that camp of subverting the idea of the nice old grandmother.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 23:21

Because she has got no time for you.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 23:25

She wants to live her life her own way, and basically fuck anyone.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Yeah, and I think it gets in the way. You could write a whole essay about how our notions of like women play into we want this caring, maternal kind of stereotype, and because she's so anti-that, she's so not caring, yeah, that uh that putting her in a horror movie and saying that this is this is your baddie, basically, is just so fun. It's great, I really enjoy it. And one of the things that she that throughout the whole movie she's doing is bringing Blanche her meals. Yes. So she has this huge tray that she's going up the stairs with this huge silver tray with whatever you know, plates and teacups and whatever on it, and she's stomping up there, and various times she brings like things, it sort of changes depending how badly the relationship is going. But the the image of her clattering up there with her heels is just so it's not the image of a torturer, but at the same time, you I was really scared of her.

SPEAKER_06 24:28

I think I know what this is. It is that the vision we are being shown is opulence with this figure that is decaying.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

It is decaying, I was gonna say, yeah, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_06 24:41

So it's it's the kind of incongruity of her to the rest of the surroundings is like she doesn't fit there.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Mmm.

SPEAKER_06 24:50

And so it does give you that uneasy feeling.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Like age is a form of decay. So the fact that she's still got this notion of herself when she was like six or whatever, which is informing how she wants to look, ages are even more than just normal aging. So she she looks such a horrifying version of herself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 25:12

Elvira the Maid turns up, and then we've got more exposition.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 25:18

And this is quite a big long exposition scene that I felt could have done with some edits.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

Perhaps, yeah. I really like Elvira the Maid.

SPEAKER_06 25:27

I love Elvira, I think she's great.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

She's got a great she she's a great actress. She is the one, because she's going into this property and interacting with them, she's probably the only person we see Blanche's character interact with, really. And yeah, she's the one who you kind of want to be the saviour. She actually has a clue as to like what baby Jane is like, and so you're kind of always willing her to to save the day, but she is the maid, and so she gets kind of like, you know, short shrift and whatever.

SPEAKER_06 26:04

And yeah, I think she does she does have to do expositions It all boils down to Blanche is trying to sell the house without Jane knowing, yeah. Because she wants to be free of Blanche, she doesn't want to know, she wants to be free of Jane, she doesn't want to live with her anymore, and she's going to call the doctor because Jane is in a bad way.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Yes. So this is the first time we get this sort of like the doctor being again a figure that can help us. Because I guess Jane's mental health has been bad before. It sounds like that.

SPEAKER_06 26:42

It sounds like well, she's an alcoholic, I think.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

She's an alcoholic, yes.

SPEAKER_06 26:47

And it's it's taken a turn, and we know that it's taken a turn because we are shown a cupboard of empty bottles.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 26:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

That's storytelling for you. Yes. And Elvira's also got some fan mail.

SPEAKER_06 27:01

Yes, she has, hasn't she?

SPEAKER_01 27:02

That she that she shows to Blanche, and it's all been opened, uh, including a letter that was marked personal. So it's kind of to prove because I guess there's some remnant of feeling between the two sisters, so Blanche doesn't want to believe that she's being abused as badly as she is, but uh she's Elvira's trying to prove to her that Jane doesn't have her best interests at heart.

SPEAKER_06 27:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Like cotton onto this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 27:28

We then learn that Blanche has put a stop on Baby Jane ordering any more alcohol.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 27:35

And that we get quite a bizarre scene.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

The phone call.

SPEAKER_06 27:39

Yeah, the phone call of Betty Davis doing an impression of Blanche.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 27:45

I wrote, now this is camp.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

Yes, absolutely, I agree.

SPEAKER_06 27:50

I couldn't tell in this one if it was a lip sync or if it was Betty Davis actually doing a voice. There's another one later on where I decided it definitely was a lip sync.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

I believe this one is also a lip sync. Yeah. I think every single time they've what they've done is, yeah, Joan Crawford has recorded something in quite a like she does sort of modulate her voice slightly. But yeah, so essentially they overdub Betty Davis so that she's doing an impression, but it's actually Joan Crawford's voice.

SPEAKER_06 28:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

And it and I do think that's camp.

SPEAKER_06 28:27

It is camp.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

I do think it's something that you wouldn't do now, or if you do it now, you do it with the knowledge that it's funny, right? Yeah. Not in a serious way.

SPEAKER_06 28:36

Or you do it better.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Or they yeah, they pro they can probably CGI voices. I don't know what they can do. Yeah. But it it's fun to me, it's really fun.

SPEAKER_06 28:46

I think it's camp because it takes you out of it.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

Right, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 28:50

But it's like, well, where is this bizarre voice coming from? I that's just how they made films. Like I'm sure there's plenty of other films that do similar things coming out at the time, but it's it certainly does um if you had any inkling of realism I which I'm glad they don't. No, it's not there anymore.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Yes, so she well, obviously uh Baby Jane is very annoyed that she has not been allowed or that or that uh Blanche has taken steps to try and stop her getting liquor. And so she leaves the phone off the hook, which in case people listening aren't familiar with old fashioned phones, yes, means that the handset that Blanche has upstairs will no longer work.

SPEAKER_06 29:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

So she's up there, she used to have the ability to call people, she now can't call out. And we get at this point we get Baby Jane drinking at the piano at the piano, and I've written I've just written the word art because the shots of her are lit so beautifully. Oh yeah. And it is so like it oh, I think it's absolutely great. So she's hearing the song that single letter to daddy.

SPEAKER_06 30:08

We get the echo of a child's voice coming from a creepy baby Jane doll.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

Yeah, yeah. And she's like eyes the doll, and then she takes the bow off of the baby Jane doll and puts it on her own head. Yeah. So this is the beginning of her like being totally detached from reality, basically.

SPEAKER_06 30:26

And it She's got particularly thick eyeliner and lips. I think it's increased even more.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

Yeah, I think she's looking wilder.

SPEAKER_06 30:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

She and the when I when I'm saying about the lighting, the way she's lit is not glamour lighting, she looks horrifying. And she starts reciting this song and the little thing that she used to say as part of the act, and she sort of steps under this light, and she's like she's fully like in this breakdown now, but it's to me, it's it's like it's doing character in such a an extreme way with light and with these you know sort of uh stylised things that I just I love that. It is camp, but it is definitely horror movie camp rather than camp that we've seen before.

SPEAKER_06 31:15

Yeah, a lot of the camp that we've watched before has been quote glamorous.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

Glamorous, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 31:22

Glamour from a different time and age. And this is all quite I say it's stripped back, she's not stripped back, but it's showing you the ugliness underneath what used to be glamour. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

And it's uh yeah, and it's very it is stylised and it's very like silly in a way because she's uh an old woman dressed as a kid or whatever. But this this this this is I find her terrifying at this point. Like, this is where I'm like, oh, she could do anything now because she thinks she's six-year-old, you know, on the war path.

SPEAKER_06 31:56

She then sees her own reflection screams at it.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 32:01

A really guttural scream.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 32:05

And ignores Blanche's buzzer.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

I yes, she does. But well, not totally, because she uh She goes eventually. Mm.

SPEAKER_06 32:14

She goes up to Blanche's room and she sits in a chair that matches the pattern of the dress that she's wearing.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

I didn't notice. Did she not? No, I didn't notice.

SPEAKER_06 32:22

It's not an identical pattern.

SPEAKER_00 32:23

Right.

SPEAKER_06 32:24

But she sits in the chair, the the upholstery on the chair is patterned, the dress is patterned, and there's certainly the similarities between the two.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

Yeah. And this is a this is a great interaction between the two of them. This this is my favourite bits. Are when you get the two of them getting into it, yeah, and it feels like there's real danger between them, because she's sh basically Baby Jane knows about this plan to sell the house, and she confronts her with it. And uh, you know, Blanche tries telling her that she's only just decided and it's you know all happened recently, but she really points at her and she says, You called him four weeks ago and told him to sell it, and the point scares me. Like she's so she's so unhinged at this point. I you do feel like anything could happen with her. Which it does, because she's clattered up there with the tea tray again. Um we've already established she has to bring all the meals, yeah. And all that dear Blanche had in her room for a friend was a little budgery car.

SPEAKER_06 33:29

Yeah, whose feathers got in her mouth during an earlier scene. They did a little bit. She enjoyed.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

Yeah, yeah. But the but Baby Jane had taken her away, taken the budgie away to clean the cage and has now brought back lunch.

SPEAKER_06 33:42

She served out that bird.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

She claiming claiming that the bird got out, and then when you you pull off the closh, it says now the cloch. The budgie's on the lunch.

SPEAKER_06 33:52

Yeah. Closh is a camp, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Yeah, I think cloches are I closhes are going in the camp.

SPEAKER_06 33:56

Yeah. Oh no, no, you may not see your food.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

A dramatic reveal. It is a dramatic reveal. I think there's something camp in that.

SPEAKER_06 34:04

Yeah, particularly if it's a bird.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Yes. If you're serving up somebody's own budgery gar. Yeah, but like at that point, look, what was your reaction to that?

SPEAKER_06 34:14

It's difficult because I had seen the film before.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Right.

SPEAKER_06 34:17

And I remembered that the bird was coming.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 34:20

I don't think I was quite as scared as you.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_06 34:28

Of any of it, if I'm honest. Um I know exactly what you mean. Like the performances are really horrifying, and you'd never want to meet these people. Yeah. But I think one of the things that I sort of almost struggled with with the film is that I I don't really watch horror films because I get very easily scared.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

And this didn't Honestly, I get so stressed, and I knew that bird was going to be under there. Because you know, from the whole thing of oh, the bird got out, the bird got out. You know the bird's gonna be under there, or like you suspect it is, but then when it is, I'm still so like viscerally disgusted by it. I was like, oh no. I I hate that she cooked the buttery girl because I I feel that thing of that was her little friend, and you've you've taken it away, and you're you've taken away the phone and you're taking away all these things that like are her links to the outside world.

SPEAKER_06 35:24

Do you think she's cooked the bird?

SPEAKER_01 35:26

No. She's just dumped it on there.

SPEAKER_06 35:29

Right, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

I think she's just killed it, whack, on the table, and then dumped it on there.

SPEAKER_06 35:35

Fine, yeah, because I was gonna say it doesn't look cooked.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

No, no, no. No. No, no, no. She's she she served it. She's served it for lunch, not cooked.

SPEAKER_06 35:43

It is pretty horrifying.

SPEAKER_01 35:45

Come on, it's horrifying.

SPEAKER_06 35:48

But I think for me it's more it's horrifying from a place of the control that Jane has.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

100%.

SPEAKER_06 35:55

I'm not scared of a bird.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

No, no, I'm scared of baby Jane.

SPEAKER_06 36:00

Fair.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

But uh even though I say that, yeah, in the next scene, or the next part, I think, Jane's off out into town.

SPEAKER_06 36:09

Yes, she is. And she's dressed up, she's she applies more lipstick.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

More lipstick.

SPEAKER_06 36:14

And a beret to leave the house.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

A beret with a sparkly brooch on it. And I have to say, I've written down, you know, try to recreate this look. Because it looks incredible. Like in a weird way.

SPEAKER_06 36:26

She's got a little love heart painted on her cheek.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 36:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

Absolutely. Just to go to the bank or whatever.

SPEAKER_06 36:34

Oh, right, Halloween.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 36:37

We need to do Baby Jane and Blanche. You can be Baby Jane.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Can I? Yes. Oh, 100% then.

SPEAKER_06 36:44

And I'll be the very severe Blanche. Well, I don't know if I'll go that far. I'll sit down. You can sit down. Yeah, I don't think it's not anymore, is it?

SPEAKER_01 36:53

No, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_06 36:55

She goes out, and then Blanche comes out of her room, and we get, and I can't explain why I've written this, it's a camp zoom on the phone.

SPEAKER_01 37:03

Yes. Yeah, yeah. It's the kind of like trying to tell you that the character is seeing the phone and having a thought about it as it zooms towards it.

SPEAKER_06 37:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

But again, yeah, it is like a s it's a it's a film technique that you don't see much now, but at the time it's like, oh it's sort of I wonder if one of the things that I didn't connect with is that I'm so used to now seeing realism. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 37:30

And this I'm not saying I like realism necessarily. No, no, no. But this is there are sort of places in this where I feel there should be realism and there's not. Because this is one of those things where I go, you could have just shown me a still shot of the phone, and I would know like I know what you're telling me. Yes, but what you've chosen to do is like an epic zoom into a phone.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

I think you're exactly right, because if it was a still shot of the phone, I would like it less.

SPEAKER_03 38:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

Because I'm used to having still shots for everything. I I want the dramatic zoom, give me a camp zoom. And I actually was gonna say, because I thought we might skip over this scene, but I wanted to like shout it out because I love this, because we get essentially Blanche on her own, she got nobody else to interact with, thinking about trying to get downstairs to use the phone. And they do this without her having to say, Oh, rats, I can't get down there. She she like she prepares herself, so she gets her legs off of the um the little uh you know uh foot stup things, whatever they've got on the wheelchair. I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 38:42

They are called something.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

I know, it feels like there's a name. Anyway, you fold them back to get your feet out. Foot rest. Footrest, yeah, she's Maldi. She's moving her legs like so we sort of physically see that her legs have have no um, you know, feeling or whatever in them. She she's thinking about getting downstairs. You she's kind of we sit the shots tell us that she's summing up the danger to her if she tries to make it downstairs to get to the phone. And I love this. I love this as a storytelling thing. She decides not to because obviously she could fall and crack her head open, so she she puts her feet back in and she decides not to. But I love that they do all of that without dialogue, without like whatever. We just see the character's thought process, and I think that's great. I love that.

SPEAKER_06 39:29

Yeah, oh I I mean absolutely compared to opening neighbours exposition scenes, yeah, yeah. This is what I love.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

I know, I know.

SPEAKER_06 39:38

So speaking of the neighbour, yeah, we get some jaunty music.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

Some of the music choices, not the best, yeah. The neighbour is out she is outside and and Blanche has bars on her windows. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 39:52

Which yeah never really get addressed.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

No. Because that isn't something you need if you're disabled. I guess then maybe they thought she could fall out if she was near the window. I don't know. Well I don't know. No, it's 'cause nobody else has we see the other houses, they don't have bars on their windows. Anyway, she decides to write a note because she can like obviously throw that out of the window at this neighbour who's doing some gardening. Now this this is where I think the film does a great job.

SPEAKER_03 40:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

Because we cut back to Jane, who's gone to the local paper to place an ad. She wants uh a pianist to accompany her rehearsals because she's gonna be baby Jane again. And so we're cutting between her there and Blanche writing this note, and I'm screaming at Blanche the whole time, hurry up, hurry up. Because she's typing on the typewriter and she's being all like formal, and then she has to add a bit on there, and I'm screaming, she's coming back, you have to be quick. Because everything depends on her not seeing this note. She writes in there, please don't let my sister see this note.

SPEAKER_06 41:05

Yes, and I'm mmm this is This is where we diverge, isn't it? This I take slight umbrage with the fact that she reads the letter aloud as she's writing it.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_06 41:19

Because again, you're telling me, not showing me.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Have you never read a letter aloud after you've um wrote it, written it?

SPEAKER_06 41:26

No. Not when I am working at such hurry.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

She this is my thing, she doesn't hurry enough.

SPEAKER_06 41:34

No, please don't tell my sister contents. It I know exactly what you mean. Like I think it I think on this occasion it works well. There are later occasions where they do a repeat, which we'll get to, which I'm not sure is quite so successful as this one.

SPEAKER_01 41:59

Okay. Um but here's another thing I don't like.

SPEAKER_06 42:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

Right? I'm not sure how big paper aeroplane making was with you know Hollywood starlets of the 30s, but she screws it up into a ball to throw it out there.

SPEAKER_06 42:17

It's not aerodynamic enough.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

It's not aerodynamic. But also, how does she know the neighbour wouldn't just see some trash in the street and just throw it straight in the bin?

SPEAKER_06 42:26

Yes, I think she's quite desperate.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

Yes, that's true. Um but so yeah, I really wanted her to make a paper aeroplane and throw it to the neighbour, but instead she just screws it up into a ball and then Jane comes home. Yes. So the the paper is just sitting there, and again, this is this is stuff that I love because even though I'm frustrated that she didn't know how to make a paper airplane, I'm screaming, oh my god, you know, you can't get it, even though I know what happens in the film. I'm like, No, no, no, no, don't get it, don't get it, don't you know. I don't want Jane to get it.

SPEAKER_06 42:55

I'm gonna take a moment now for Jane's magnificent brooch.

SPEAKER_01 42:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 42:59

Which is the first time I really saw it was in this scene. I say broach, it's more of a uh a very large hanging basket. I mean it's it's gigantic.

SPEAKER_01 43:18

It is, yes. It like a fascinator for your chest.

SPEAKER_06 43:24

We both said the same thing when you it's the same thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 43:28

She finds the note, she reads the note, and then we have one of my favourite confrontations. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Daddy bought this house for me. You aren't ever gonna sell this house and you aren't ever gonna leave it. I don't know why I'm doing it as Blanche from Golden Girl. Well, it it's completely the wrong blanche because it's Jane.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

The way that Betty Davis delivers the words you aren't, she aren't is so good and so iconic. You aren't ever gonna sell. This house and you aren't ever gonna leave it.

SPEAKER_06 44:03

My favourite on a similar line is when Blanche says something about being in a wheelchair and Betty Davis goes, but you are Blanche.

SPEAKER_01 44:12

Yes. You are in the chair. Yes. It's so good.

SPEAKER_06 44:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:17

There's something right. There's something camp about delivering a line in a way that nobody else would. Does that make sense to you? This is a big thing, I think, in like camp, kind of the the the the canon of camp or whatever. If you say that line in a way that is nobody else would think to, there's something so unique about it, it really is camp.

SPEAKER_06 44:44

Yeah, it's about putting emphasis in places where you wouldn't normally expect to find it kind of mixing accents in a way and mixing intonations from different places that just gives it this like no one else would do that.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

I think it's it's a moment of strangeness. And like where people say, like you said earlier, like something pulls you out of it. This sort of thing can almost pull you out of it, but actually it pulls me further into something. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_06 45:17

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

A strangeness to it that is all its own. And so, yeah, this is a great confrontation.

SPEAKER_06 45:23

Then so Jane has also brought another dinner up, and we get a massive swell of music.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 45:30

Every time she puts her hand on the cloch.

SPEAKER_01 45:33

I have also written down the music effect for the lunch reveal because this is camp, and I don't know if they were doing this for comic effect or if they really mean this dramatically. But yeah, Blanche obviously the fear of the budgie in her mind can't do the reveal of the lunch, and so they swell the music two or three times, and it's it it's it's so dramatic and wonderful. I love that, I love it so much, but yeah, I don't know, I don't know how they intend that, whether they intend that as a laugh or they're just really building the drama.

SPEAKER_06 46:09

We then oh move away from the oh now then.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

Now then now we've got to talk about him. Hello, lovely!

SPEAKER_06 46:18

No, not him. I want to talk about her.

SPEAKER_01 46:20

Oh, absolutely, absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 46:23

I'm obsessed with this woman. I know, I know. I went and googled her.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

So we so we're going to meet the guy who's going to respond to this piano playing advert.

SPEAKER_06 46:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 46:35

Right? But we meet him with his mum.

unknown 46:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 46:39

And Delia.

SPEAKER_01 46:40

And Delia is British for some reason. I don't know why. This is in the script. And her her accent is amazing.

SPEAKER_06 46:48

Well, I put an elderly British mother who is quite the contrast to old Hollywood. She is quite the contrast.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

Hello, nothing else, your day bitch.

SPEAKER_06 46:57

She's she's a bit Monty Python, isn't she?

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Well, she is when you do it. I've got I've got written down, still got a bit of savings. So I love this dynamic because we've got this tiny little old woman who yells at the top of her voice the whole time. Everything is delivered full volume. And she's got this very large son, like he's I He's not a native Brit.

SPEAKER_06 47:26

But he's trying, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 47:28

Why does his mother have to be British? Just to give him a thing?

SPEAKER_06 47:30

No, no, no. I think he's supposed to be British.

SPEAKER_01 47:33

Oh, is he? Okay.

SPEAKER_06 47:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 47:34

Well, this is I think his name's Edwin, played by Victor Buono.

SPEAKER_06 47:39

Yes. Who is This was his first film role.

SPEAKER_01 47:42

First film role. I the only other thing I know him from is I think in he's in Batman and I think he plays a character called Kittat.

SPEAKER_03 47:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:51

Which probably yeah, we don't need to talk about. But I I I really think he's good in this. But I I do question like what what they wanted from this character.

SPEAKER_06 48:02

I I question what they wanted from either of them.

SPEAKER_01 48:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 48:06

I know what they got with the mother. She's so good. Uh fun fact about her.

SPEAKER_01 48:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:12

She's such a mini deep dive for you. She was a really big silent film star.

SPEAKER_01 48:17

Oh. I can imagine her being popular at no volume.

SPEAKER_06 48:22

And she was also in Mary Poppins.

SPEAKER_01 48:25

Was she really?

SPEAKER_06 48:26

She was. She played Miss Lark, who's the character that had Andrew the dog.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

Oh!

SPEAKER_06 48:31

Yeah, same woman, yes! Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Oh my goodness. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 48:37

Very mini deep dive, but I'm I'm excited by it. He hates her with every fibre of his being. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

Yeah. I th I think I don't know if they were trying to set up a dynamic where he's trapped with somebody from his family the same way that Jane is. Yes. But it does come across that um everybody with a relative just hates them.

SPEAKER_06 48:58

This is true. This is very true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:03

Don't get stuck with your relatives. They're a nightmare.

SPEAKER_06 49:07

She calls Jane in response to the ad as though she is his secretary.

SPEAKER_04 49:14

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 49:14

There's a there's a bit of a phone call to which Jane says I'll be expecting him. And nobody says where he's got to go.

SPEAKER_01 49:23

No, no, no. We don't need it.

SPEAKER_06 49:25

It's not in the advert.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

Skip over it. Skip over the details.

SPEAKER_06 49:29

See him at four.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 49:30

Where, Jane? Where? Then we get a buzzer again.

SPEAKER_01 49:37

I have to say, right, at this point with the buzzer.

SPEAKER_06 49:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:41

That considering Blanche is being controlled and emotionally and possibly financially abused by her sister and all types of abuse, she really does go ham on that buzzer. Oh yeah, she does. For someone who's got your very life in their hands, just buzz once and wait. She really buzzes the shit out of that buzzer. Yeah. I was getting annoyed. I wasn't fully on Baby Jane's side, but I was like, give it a rest.

SPEAKER_06 50:07

I think fully on Baby Jane's side is a dangerous place to be.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

It is, but years of that buzzer. Come on. Got some great, some great lines in this scene as well.

SPEAKER_06 50:16

I didn't bring you breakfast because you didn't need your din-din.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

Didn't eat your dindin.

SPEAKER_06 50:22

Yeah. Blanche is hungry and she was too scared to open her food, which wasn't breakfast because we later see it was like a steak. But she was too scared to eat it, so Blanche hasn't uh so Jane hasn't bought her any more food.

SPEAKER_01 50:38

No.

SPEAKER_06 50:38

She's hungry.

SPEAKER_01 50:39

She's hungry.

SPEAKER_06 50:40

I also wrote Blanche always has a nice neck piece.

SPEAKER_01 50:44

Right.

SPEAKER_06 50:44

She's always got something going like a bow.

SPEAKER_01 50:47

Going on on the neck.

SPEAKER_06 50:48

A b a bow or a it's mostly bows, actually.

SPEAKER_01 50:50

Yes, because she's not because sh the only person taking care of her is baby Jane.

SPEAKER_06 50:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

And so we're getting the idea now that she's she's not getting enough to eat and not not getting enough to drink, possibly, but she's always impeccably turned out.

SPEAKER_06 51:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 51:04

Up to this point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 51:05

Yeah, and well, I mean, even moving forward, I think the face is always the f the face never lies, yeah. No. And then we she gives Elvira the day off.

SPEAKER_01 51:16

There's a there's a there's a line I just want to like point out in that scene between Blanche and Jane where Blanche now Joan Crawford, right, is quite formidable.

SPEAKER_06 51:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

But she tries to play this character with some fragility, I think. Because she she is very, you know, like the the the character's being very controlled. She is softer, she's trying to be softer, and she says at this point, in a quite earnest way, do you ever think, you know, if I wasn't alive, there'd be no money for you? And Betty Davis, her character goes, Yeah, I thought about that, and I think it's just a great moment. They don't they don't have to say to you, Well, why would Jane be keeping this sister alive? If she hates her so much, why wouldn't she have killed her off before now? It's clear at that point, this is Blanche's money, and in order to keep the money in the house and whatever, Jane needs her alive. And you see Joan Crawford's face go, Oh, she's thought about killing me before. And I just think it's great, it's a great moment.

SPEAKER_06 52:21

I think it's really interesting that the film can manage these really subtle moments.

SPEAKER_02 52:29

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 52:30

And in other places, has to do this really sort of ham-fisted exposition.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

It's very interesting. I agree, I agree.

SPEAKER_06 52:40

I don't think they ever quite strike the balance.

SPEAKER_01 52:43

It's it's very strange because you get a moment like that, and then yeah, you you go straight into something odd. I I kind of like it for that. I like the imperfectness of that, but you know.

SPEAKER_06 52:56

We see Elvira again, and Jane gives her the day off.

SPEAKER_01 52:59

Yeah, she's gone, she's out of the picture. Never speaks to Blanche.

SPEAKER_06 53:04

No, she doesn't get to speak to Blanche. Then we go to Baby Jane taking her another She's coming up with the tea tray again. She's coming up with the tea tray.

SPEAKER_01 53:13

A lot of the storytelling is done.

SPEAKER_06 53:15

With tea trays.

SPEAKER_01 53:16

With tea trays.

SPEAKER_06 53:17

That's quite camp, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 53:18

Well, exactly.

SPEAKER_06 53:19

Occupant silverware to tell a story. Yes, yes, yes. Beauty and the beast could never. And we get. Oh Blanche. You know we got rats in the cellar.

SPEAKER_01 53:30

Yeah. But but she but the last meal that she served her was actually fine.

SPEAKER_03 53:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 53:38

So maybe she's just winding her up about the rats.

SPEAKER_06 53:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:42

Except she isn't. She's not, no. There's fully a rat under the.

SPEAKER_06 53:45

There's a rat under the cloch.

SPEAKER_01 53:47

And then we get, you know, Joan Crawford dramatically pushes away the tea tray onto the floor. Tea tray uh storytelling. Uh and Betty Davis is in another room cackling with laughter.

SPEAKER_06 53:58

I wrote cackling. It's it's a proper hearty cackle. And then we do get a bit that is very gamp.

SPEAKER_02 54:09

It's very gamp.

SPEAKER_06 54:09

It's Blanche pointlessly spinning in her chair crying.

SPEAKER_01 54:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 54:13

She's just going in circles.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

I think, you know, the director's gone, um, well, you can't like, you know, throw yourself dramatically on the furniture. What could she do?

SPEAKER_03 54:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:22

And so she just goes round and round in the wheelchair.

SPEAKER_03 54:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:25

Now, hold I I think this is the the moment that is like mo is most unintentionally funny, and probably the one bit that I would edit out because it's so nonsensical.

SPEAKER_06 54:38

Oh, it's the one bit I keep. I it's it is nonsensical, but I think that's why I love it. Yeah, yeah. It's like, why are you I do understand?

SPEAKER_01 54:49

I'd be sad to lose it. But yeah. The thing is, I think this part I I actually think Joan Crawford does a really good job with her physicality of portraying a wheelchair user. But I think at this point it's obvious it's not a wheelchair user because it's so silly, and I think somebody who is genuinely in a wheelchair would have thought of something that could show that angst and that kind of physical manifestation of their distress at that point in a way that wasn't so silly, but maybe they liked the silliness of it. I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 55:22

We move to later on, right, and piano man comes. The piano man is coming, and Jane is now fully done up like her childhood self.

SPEAKER_01 55:33

Oh, yeah, I've written that.

SPEAKER_06 55:34

White dress, sash, ringlets, full beat, and ribbons.

SPEAKER_01 55:40

Yes. She's literally just yeah, dressed like the doll.

SPEAKER_06 55:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:45

But as a an adult woman.

SPEAKER_06 55:47

He comes in and they're both. It's very clear to me, and again, this is another sort of subtle thing that they manage to do. They're both trying to make themselves look better than they are.

SPEAKER_01 56:02

Yeah, I think it's done quite well. They're both bullshitting, essentially. That they're the big, you know, kahuna or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 56:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:09

Um, he says he he has a line, you must have guessed that I'm English. And she says, How nice for you!

unknown 56:18

I like.

SPEAKER_06 56:21

She we get lots of shots of him sort of almost mugging to the camera.

SPEAKER_01 56:28

Yes. I've written the word mugging.

SPEAKER_06 56:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:30

Because he he has he gives a really good face.

SPEAKER_06 56:34

Yeah. And we get a lot of his face saying, Oh god, this stupid old woman. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:40

He's obviously judging her. Yes. Right? But at the same time, I think his face conveys, oh, sometimes you just gotta do these jobs with these nuts. It's not this woman is dangerous, she's got her sister hostage upstairs. It's oh, you know, in show business you meet all kinds, you just gotta put up with it, cash the checks, just you know.

SPEAKER_06 57:01

Then she takes him to look at her scrapbooks.

SPEAKER_01 57:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 57:05

Which Daddy compiled.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

Daddy compiled.

SPEAKER_06 57:07

Yes. At which point Blanche presses the buzzer incessantly again.

SPEAKER_01 57:15

It does, she always presses it incessantly.

SPEAKER_06 57:17

To which Jane runs upstairs, pulls out the buzzer mechanism, and isolates her even further. She now can't even get the attention, and we get an old school Hollywood slap between them. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:34

I think, and I I really I enjoy how they do the relationship because this is I think maybe the first like real violence we've seen between the two of them. Yeah. But I was I was already in fear for Blanche.

SPEAKER_06 57:51

Yeah, you it doesn't it doesn't need to overdo anything. And it but it also doesn't come out of no like Yeah, it it seems totally right.

SPEAKER_01 57:58

Yeah, like the psychological warfare has already been there, and they leave the slap, I think they leave it long enough that you're not surprised by it.

SPEAKER_06 58:08

Then she sings.

SPEAKER_01 58:11

Oh yes, she does.

SPEAKER_06 58:13

She does. Now what I I love, I loved this and what they do with it because they put her in theatrical lighting.

SPEAKER_02 58:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 58:24

She turns on a light, which clearly isn't what she does is she hits a light switch and the lighting state changes. That's not a light coming on.

SPEAKER_05 58:33

No.

SPEAKER_06 58:34

That is it is kind of expressionist. It's it's certainly not a natural light that would come into the room.

SPEAKER_05 58:41

No.

SPEAKER_06 58:41

And she watches herself perform in a mirror that's got a ballet bar in front of it. The pianist is unconvinced throughout.

SPEAKER_01 58:50

This this is what I was gonna say is she's performing, she's totally within her own fantasy. His looks break in, and he's sort of like he is mugging to us, like, oh my god, what is this woman doing? But then we also cut occasionally upstairs to Blanche, who looks terrified because she can obviously overhear some of this music, and her looks are like, oh my god, you know, uh th the the the fear and the horror of this. So I love that you're getting those two different reactions to it. Whilst yeah, Betty Davis just performs the hell out of it. She's so like she's so good as this creepy performer who really thinks she's a little girl and is really back there, and oh, I love it.

SPEAKER_06 59:37

Yeah, there's something camp about the old doing the things of the young.

SPEAKER_01 59:41

Yes, yeah. It's the subversive, isn't it? Yeah, it just shouldn't be happening.

SPEAKER_06 59:46

Yeah. She curtsies to no one and then he starts talking about money.

SPEAKER_01 59:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 59:55

And during this whole conversation, he's basically try I think what he wants is her to give him money literally there and there.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:01

He needs money right there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:02

She says, You can have it Wednesday, and I'll give you a month's worth, which sort of placates him. And I did write in this moment, you sort of feel sorry for her.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:14

Yeah, I think you do.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:16

I think you realise that he's a wrong and that he's actually out to scam her. I feel like if she'd given him money there and then, she never would have seen him again.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:26

Oh, do you think?

SPEAKER_06 1:00:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:28

Interesting. I don't think I'd thought of that.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:30

I think he was on the make, basically.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:32

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:33

And there's this vulnerability in her at this point that you start to see. And I think this is where Right, okay. This is where we start getting into the realms of her having a mental health condition. And I have an issue.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:54

With mental health conditions being played for camp.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:58

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:59

And I think this is one of my key issues from here on out. I can enjoy it on an entertainment level, but the overacting and the overperformance of the mental health condition removes it from any kind of place of reality and is sort of quite a damaging interpretation of what a mental health condition actually is.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:24

Interesting. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:25

And I think this is something that recurs. It's not exclusive to this film, and it's probably part of a wider conversation about mental health representation on screen. But I think there are a lot of examples of the in quote marks crazy character being played for laughs and being played for melodrama.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:50

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:51

That really is quite harmful in some ways.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:55

It's really interesting because I I totally understand what you're saying, but I never I don't think I'd thought of her playing it for laughs. And I don't think I I really like understand so one of the things with the th the this film is like I get why it's seen as camp because the kind of things around it, but I I genuinely the characters, I like the the way the actresses are choosing to perform it, I think they totally believe their truth. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_06 1:02:31

Yeah, and I think playing it for last was maybe the wrong way to phrase it.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:34

Because I don't think she you know, she's not in a sitcom, she's not Yeah, and I don't think she thinks, Oh, I'm just yeah, I'm not I'm not playing this character as though it were absurd. I think she believes in her truth, as it were.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:49

I I think maybe what I have issue with is it sometimes being labelled as camp.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:56

When you sort of watch it and go, Oh but actually, like there's quite a serious Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:01

Well, I have an issue with it being labelled as as camp because when m quite often when male characters go like to a really bold, unusual place, it isn't labelled camp.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:16

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:16

It's just them doing something really new and different and unique. And this is labelled as camp almost almost exclusively because it's women. Because it's women that in the central roles. And yeah, the idea of her being her like younger self with the you know, dressing up as a dolly puts it into the the camp realm. But what she's actually doing is a really sort of fascinating portrayal of this resentful sister and this resentment like brewing up over years and Yeah, I don't have any issue with the way she's playing it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:50

Because I don't think she's playing it any differently to how other women were portraying mental health issues at the time. It's i it's a product of its society. I think that looking at it now and going, oh, that's camp, in this instance actually sort of dismisses it a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:14

Yeah. Well, and I was thinking this about the the sort of topics that it touches on because we get we go into a bit now about like what I would term financial abuse. Yes, which is where Jane goes out again.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:27

Jane goes out, and Blanche comes out of her room, basically, she's so hungry, she's looking for anything that she can eat.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:34

And she finds these chocolates in Jane's room.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:38

Yes, and then I'm just gonna sidestep for a moment because we get into some real camp now because we get some dubbed eating noises.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:46

I do know what I thought I was being oversensitive, but I've written down ADR'd eating noise because they didn't match what she was doing. And it's so over the top.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:57

And it's oddly something like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:01

But um no, what I was saying about the financial she underneath these chocolates she finds that Jane's been practising her signature, and so it's obvious to her that as part of this plan Jane is either already started ripping her off or is going to, and but these are these are real topics, you know, uh for disabled people or elderly people where whoever's caring for them controls them, and it that is a that is genuinely something that you could treat in a very serious way. You can imagine a very like gritty British film umge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's this? Huh? Huh? Huh? What? And you know, you can have a very serious film about that.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:44

And is it always wrong t for a serious topic like that to sort of be treated in this more overblown way? Because I don't think I d I don't necessarily have a problem with it. I think it If i it's sort of like they're not meaning to um do any offence to people who are being ripped off. It's just the topic that they're using. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_06 1:06:12

Yes, and I think this is where something else comes up that I thought of is that we are being we're not being presented with a character that is evil or despicable because they want to be evil or despicable.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:33

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:34

We're being presented with a character who clearly has some issues going on and is doing this I I think as a result of those issues.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:48

But it's it's taking someone that has issues and playing a film as though they are evil and are doing it because they wanna do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:00

But she's always been she's always been a bad person, I think.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:05

Yes, but then I also Right, I mean this is turning into a a therapy session, but then she's always been that sort of person, but then I look at the relationship with the father and I go, was that an entirely healthy relationship?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:19

Oh god! Yes, okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:22

Because she was sort of a child star and she probably was you know, the dad was the manager and he probably was like, No, you get out there and you earn us the money, and you know. So I see we I think it's fine. I think if we were watching something like Nightmare on Elm Street, where our evil character is I've never seen it, but where our evil character is an evil character, yeah, then I'm like, yeah, take these issues and treat them in this really overblown way because they're just Yeah, yeah. I think once you and uh dear listener, I'm very aware we're probably looking far too deeply into it. I think when you take someone with mental health issues and make them do these things, but also don't deal really with the the why and the wherefores of the condition, it gets a bit icky.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:18

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:19

Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:20

I think so. I think I sort of disagree.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:23

Fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:24

Because I think you can't look into the whys and wherefores within this film because it doesn't support that, because it's sort of like it's it's about one sort of like specific thing, which is it it's this relationship between them, and you have to Well it does it does give you the whys and wherefores to some extent, doesn't it? It g like it does the bit of the background of of how their relationship has always been. And I kind of I don't know, I yeah, I kind of like it. I kind of like that it deals with things rather than being made up like you know, Nightmare on Elm Street. It kind of takes its horror from real things that happen to people, you know.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:08

Yeah, and I as you're saying that, uh what I also wouldn't want was kind of almost a footnote of someone going, Oh yes, well she was treated awfully by her dad.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:20

Like maybe it's just not the film I want it to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:23

No, yeah, I think that's fair. I think that's totally fair.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:27

It's is there a point at which it like changes for you, or is this all the way along you're kind of having this feeling?

SPEAKER_06 1:09:36

Because we're at the point now where Oh right, yes, this point. So we're at the point Jane has gone out to the bank to get some money for dresses for her new act that she's putting together, and also the money to pay Edwin. And what we get is another sequence similar to the one earlier that I thought worked. The sequence with Blanche writing the message and the cross-cutting between, you know, all Jane's on her way back.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:09

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:09

This one I do not think works at all, and I shall tell you for why. Okay. What we get is a sequence of Blanche deciding that she is going to take herself down the stairs. My issue with it is that the cross cuts, what we see of Betty Davis, in actuality, probably takes about half an hour.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:39

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:39

What we see of Joan Crawford probably takes if I'm generous, five minutes. And so I don't I don't get the sense of foreboding because I'm like, oh, she's only just getting back in the car, she's still got to drive back, and I know that she's gonna arrive at the least opportune moment. Yeah, yeah. Like I know that it's coming, but the effect is that it looks like Blanche is trying to get down those stairs for about 20 minutes, and the but the way in which she's doing it by holding herself up on the banner.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:16

Back the banner, the banister, yeah, it would take superhuman body strength. It would. For her to it would take superhuman body strength for her to do it anyway, because all she's had to eat for the last couple of days is a couple of chocolates.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:32

And I just it it just kills any sort of tension for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:36

I totally disagree. I totally buy. I think it's brilliant. You know, Joan Crawford is dangling over that banister. There's beads of sweat on her forehead.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:46

I totally buy very carefully placed beads of sweat.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:48

I totally buy that she's doing that for like 20 minutes trying to get down there because it's and I think she puts in great physical work.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:56

But it but well to show that she's not using her legs and but I think half the problem is that she barely moves when we cut back. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:03

Yeah, yeah, she can't really show us much movement because I don't think it's physically possible for someone with the the kind of disability that they're suggesting she has to get down the stairs in that way. Yes. Why you would not go down on your bum, I don't know. Um it wasn't wasn't graceful for Joan Crawford, I guess. But I love I love the physical effort that she's putting into dangling over that banister. I think it's great. And I yeah, I'm totally in it. I'm screaming quicker uh because especially a lot of time is spent with Joan Crawford has got to the phone, which is the aim. We wanted her to get to the phone. Yeah, she's got through to the doctor who's the one she wanted to speak to. It takes her so long. She doesn't just blurt out in the first sentence, help, get stuff get the police round here, get anyone round here, I'm going to die. Yes. She's sort of saying, Oh, I I think she's a lot worse. Like, come on, woman.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:57

Well, yeah, and but Jane has arrived home while she's on the phone and is stood in the background of the shot listening to every word that she's saying.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:06

Then Betty Davis kicks her in the head.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:12

Oh, there's some real kicking.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:13

So the kick in the head is one of the stories that it after the film was made, it was alleged that Betty Davis actually kicked her in that film. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:25

I wouldn't be surprised.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:26

But equally, this sequence of Baby Jane kicking her is edited in such a way that it could not possibly be real.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:35

No, exactly.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:37

See, I there's also there's a series made called Feud.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:41

Yeah, I haven't seen that one.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:43

Right, which is about the two of them And the making of this. And the making of this. And I'm pretty sure there's a story in that which is suggests that Joan Crawford put like something like wooden panels or something in her weighed down her dressing gown. Yeah, weighed down her dressing gown, but also put something hard so that when she was like being kicked, she was it was meant to be padding.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:09

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:09

But it was actually um.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:12

So the story that I've read is the scene where you have Jane dragging her across the floor.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:19

She weighed her costume down because she knew that Betty Davis had back problems.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:23

Well, I've also heard that, and when we were watching that, I was pretty sure I could see Joan Crawford smiling.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:29

So I'm sure that one's I should just say at this juncture that both of them denied that any of that ever happened.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:37

They would, wouldn't they? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:38

Then Baby Jane calls the doctor back and does her second weird lip sync impression.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:46

Saying, Oh no, don't come. Uh Jane's decided to see another doctor.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:50

Because the doctor's got his coat on, she thinks finally everything's gonna be alright.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:54

No, does the weird lip sync thing.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:56

Elvira returns early.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:59

Elvira's back.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:00

And Jane fires her.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:02

Then Elvira She gets the feeling that something's up, doesn't she? She's not she's not a silly woman. She gets the feeling something's going on.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:10

And she tells Jane that she can't have the key back because she's forgotten it. She's forgotten it. At which point I was cheering because my experience of these sorts of films is that she would go, Oh well, you fired me. Well, I'm off. Haha, never coming back. You know, it it felt like it was another bit of hope that was going to be trodden on.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:36

So I was like, Yes, Elvira. She goes and waits for the bus, sees Jane go out and drive past, and then she goes back to the house.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:46

And lets herself in.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:47

She lets herself in, and we don't know where Blanche is in the house at the moment because we've seen this kicking, and that's the last we saw of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:55

Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:56

So Elvira's coming in, she's looking around. When she gets upstairs, the door of Blanche's bedroom is locked, and she also notices the buzzer has been ripped out.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:09

So she's calling for Blanche, saying, you know, are you in there? Are you alright? No reply. And Elvira is quite handy because she goes and gets a hammer and chisel and starts trying to take the hinges off the door.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:21

I was like, okay, Elvira, go on.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:25

Once again, and again, it's the third time it happens. Jane arrives back at exactly the right time.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:31

Yeah, okay. They do maybe overdo that one. I really like it though, as a device. Always getting back in the nick of time is really fun to me.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:41

Yeah, and then she confronts Elvira with the hammer. No, Elvira's got in at this point. Has she got in?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:50

No, Elvira doesn't get in with the hinge thing. She right, when Jane gets back, Elvira says to her, You open this door, unlock this door, or I'm gonna call the police. And we see Jane look at the hammer and go, Alright, I'll give you the key.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:08

Yes, to which I wrote, Why would you put the hammer down?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think what this shows is that Elvira doesn't realise how serious it is. She thinks I'll call the police is the worst thing that can happen today. She doesn't think the worst thing that can happen today is a hammer to the back of my head.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:26

Well, no, because But she's wrong. Yeah. Jane lets her in, she sees that Blanche is tied up and gagged.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:33

Yeah, she's tied to the thing that's supposed to help her out of the bed.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:36

And then Jane bashes her head in with a hammer.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:38

Which now we're really reaching a fever pitch.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:41

We are, yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:43

In terms of this character, like I do think they've built it really well, like what she's capable of. Because she really she's scary at the beginning, but you don't think that she will go this far.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:56

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:56

And so when this happens, it's like, oh, there's really yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:00

Then the English lady's back.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:05

This is okay, this is a bad scene because they do just yell exposition.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:09

She is just exposition. I was more here for it because I adore her.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:14

Um It's yeah, it's Victor and his mum. It's the character's not called Victor Brono. Edwin yelling at each other, um, exposition at breakfast about the accident. Because obviously there were all, you know, stories in the paper about this at some point, so somebody knows the story of how Blanche got injured and then Jane was missing um after that. And there's a so there's a whole story there.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:40

We cut back to Jane, who's drunkenly looking at her scrapbooks when Piano Man arrives, to which she says, I can't let you in.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:50

Not now. Yes, I'm not sure what the accent is, so don't know.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:55

No, and then she I wrote she's stumbling and monologuing.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:59

She's basically talking to herself.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:01

She is.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:02

Then we cut to her the scene that follows is the disposal of Elvira's body.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:10

In which she brings out an obvious dummy on a wheelchair to load into her car.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:17

Elvira's got a lot lighter.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:19

Yes. And she does a lot of eye acting. Which I'll do an impression of. You won't hear you won't see it at home, but here we go. And then we I love this cut. We cut to an undertaking advert on a billboard.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:36

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:37

Just yeah, you know, you have to tell the story in a subtle way.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:40

It's but I love that sort of dark the dark humour of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:45

The dark humour, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:48

We go back to the British lady again, and Edwin shouts at her, and we get one of my favourite shots of the whole film. He shouts at her and storms out, and then we cut to a close-up of her face going, Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:10

I think I wish there was more of her, to be honest with you. Delia.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:14

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:16

Then the police call about Elvira.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:18

I love when she gets the phone call. When Betty Davis picks up the phone, you don't because there's a lot going on, you don't know what the phone call is. And you know, it could be the doctor, it could be Victor, whatever. But you watch her kind of crash in as she as you and you realise as the audience, you're watching her going, What's the phone? Oh, the maid, somebody's gonna miss Elvira. And so then the first line is something like, Oh, you know, she hasn't been here or whatever. It's great, it's great. I love that moment. Yeah. Um, but they but she says, you know, haven't seen her, she's not around, and so they sort of say, Well, we might have to come if we don't find her.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:00

The threat is there.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:01

There's lots of looking off into the middle distance at this point.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:05

Yeah. Then the police do show up and she answers the door, but they've got Edwin, who they found outside drunk.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:14

Saying that he knew her.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:16

Yeah, so for because he she hasn't answered giving him his money, he's gone off and got got drunk for whatever reason, because that's what he's like. And then he's told them her address so that he can turn up at his employer drunk.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:31

It seems like an unlikely sequence of events.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:33

Yes, and one of my favourite bits of this sequence is the painted backdrop outside the front door.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:39

Mmm.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:40

Yeah. They open a door and there's just a painting behind me.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:43

Painting, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:44

I think I think everything that happens with Victor now is quite unlikely. Because he comes inside and he's drunk, remember?

SPEAKER_06 1:21:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:52

And um Blanche She's drunk.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:55

She's drunk. Blanche has managed to untie a hand.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:58

Yes. Because This is again where we're doing a lot of this cross-cutting.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:03

Where we're establishing that Victor and um the character's name is Edwin.

unknown 1:22:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:07

Edwin is downstairs, and so obviously that's a danger to her if he discovers um Blanche upstairs. And yeah, Blanche is getting managing to get herself free, but she's very weak because she's been tied with her hands like stretched out over her body because she's been tied to this thing that's supposed to help her get out of bed.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:27

Jane brings Edwin a present, which turns out to be the creepy baby Jane doll.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:33

She presents him with a baby Jane doll.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:36

His face, when he gets it, is wonderful. She dumps it on his lap. So he's now a grown man holding a doll child. And she has to, I think she has to go upstairs for Blanche. Blanche manages to knock something over or something, make a noise.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:52

So well before that, we see Edwin wrapped up like E.T. wheeling himself through a.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:58

Blanche has gone out of the room.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:00

He Jane has gone out of the room.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:02

Jane has gone out of the room, sorry. That's right. Um He with this doll wraps himself up in a blanket with the doll and gets into a wheelchair and wheels himself through, going like, we When I say this whole part seems unlikely. I've been drunk. I still think this isn't the thing I would do in my employer's home, however drunk I've been.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:29

And I think it's because they want Jane to see this and think that her sister has somehow managed to escape for even a second. But it's really not necessary. No.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:41

Like I Blanche manages to topple a table.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:46

He bolts upstairs to see what the noise was, sees her, and basically realises that Blanche is dying.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:55

She looks awful. This is the first point where she's truly looked terrible.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:59

Yes. It's very well-placed, terrible makeup, but Yes, she looks beautiful and terrible.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:05

Yeah. Which is quite camp.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:07

But yeah, I don't think if I was him, I if I heard a noise in someone's house that I didn't really know that well, and they said, Oh, you know, don't worry about that, the cat's knocked something over. I think I'd just go, okay, fair enough.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:19

Yeah, I mean when we record this, if there's a strange noise, I wouldn't assume that you've got your husband tied up upstairs.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:25

Well even if you did, I think it's doubtful that you'd go and force your way in to have a look.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:34

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:34

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:35

Well now I've watched this.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:41

Yes, so she yes, um Joan Crawford is looking absolutely terrible in a very glamorous way.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:47

Yes. And Jane realizes that he's gonna tell someone.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:51

Well he he runs out of the house and she is thrust, she's like waving money uh in his general direction, but he's he's gone.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:00

We get a repeat of putting a body in the car.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:04

Yes, it seemed unlikely last time, it seems even more unlikely this time. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:08

And then just when we couldn't get any more unlikely, we take her to the beach.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:14

Now this feels strange to me.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:16

They have mentioned in passing something about going to the beach once before.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:21

I think not long before this, she says something like we could go to the beach, like when I was little.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:26

I do think, as a storytelling thing, we should have seen them at the beach as youngsters in the flashback part. You know, when she's saying that she wants an ice cream or something, she should have run out to the ice cream man on the beach. It should have been like a end of the pier. End of the pier, and we should have seen them playing on the beach for a little bit because otherwise it feels really weird that everything basically takes place in that house. It's such a contained space, and we start to, as an audience, which is something I really like, know every inch of it. We know the phone downstairs, we know about the buzzer, we understand that space and what is there. So now to be at the beach feels weird and is weird because there's a lot of people there.

SPEAKER_06 1:26:11

Oh god, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:13

So there's there isn't when they turn up.

SPEAKER_06 1:26:15

She takes her there at night, yeah. And then we get this shot that is time passing because the beach has got busier, it's daytime.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:26:24

And we get this radio sort of voiceover that says they found Elvira's body.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:26:31

They think Jane might have abducted Blanche.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:34

Yes, so they know the whole story basically.

SPEAKER_06 1:26:36

And so they're they're looking for her.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:38

And then we do see a shot of a newspaper with a uh picture of Elvira, which is really quite sad actually.

SPEAKER_06 1:26:44

Then no one has noticed Jane on the beach with her living corpse sister.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:49

Yes. So on this beach, full of people in the 60s, having a groovy old time. Yes, there is uh like I would say a woman in her 60s, dressed as a child, with a woman who's clearly almost dead lying next to her. Now I know on the beach you do your own thing, but I would suggest that someone would have noticed.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:12

It crossed my mind, right, it crossed my mind. Did they look at Blanche and think she was sunbathing? And then I realised she was basically wrapped in a black shroud.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:25

Because not in a good way.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:27

If you have someone who's nearly dying, sunbathing is totally an option for them. But don't wrap them in a heavy black wool blanket.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:35

No, that's the thing that would arouse suspicion for me. Or possibly them going, help. Because I know that she's whispering. She's very low on energy.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:47

But still.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:48

She hasn't eaten, she probably hasn't drunk anything now. She's had her arms above her head.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:53

The police realise there are some police at the beach for some reason buying an ice cream. Yep. And then they realise.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:00

Have you ever been to McDonald's? There's always a policeman there, alright? That's the inner city.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:06

Um they realise that the car down the road is the the car. They sort of realise that they must be arrested.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:14

Yes, they've got a report of what car they drive and everything.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:16

Then weird old lady Jane plays with children.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:21

That doesn't raise an up about an eyelid for the parents.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:24

Really wants them to throw the ball to her and they really do not want to. No. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:28

Then we get the confession. She goes back to Blanche.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:33

Who I mean the makeup is gone to a really grotesque place now.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:38

Yeah, yeah, I love it.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:39

Yeah. I crippled myself. It's a weird confession. It's an odd confession, yes. I hid the gates. I snapped my spine.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:49

So everything we thought is back to front, basically.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:53

She tells her So Blanche is dying. And she tells Jane, you weren't driving, you were too drunk.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:02

I wanted to run you down.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:06

You jumped out of the way just in time. And so her hitting the gates was what ended up making her disabled.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:14

But because Baby Jane was so drunk, she really didn't realise any of this. So wherever she went off to, when like she sobered up in three days' time or whatever, she was being blamed for the accident. So their whole life has been a life of resentment built on the wrong thing.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:33

Then we get the most backhanded compliment you could ever receive. You weren't ugly then.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:41

Great. These are camp lines.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:43

That is a camp line.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:44

It is, isn't it?

SPEAKER_06 1:29:45

Yeah. Suddenly, the police go towards Jane and everybody simultaneously notices her at once. There is a shot of probably about 50 people.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:01

They all turn their heads and get up simultaneously.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:04

What happens here is like a zombie movie because uh they were totally invisible to everyone. There's two weirdos on the beach were invisible, and then she went to get two strawberry ice creams.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:17

And when she brought them back, suddenly everybody couldn't do anything else. They're like drawn to her. Yeah. They're all getting up, whatever they were doing, and it's encircling her.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:28

It's it's very odd.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:30

But she's finally got an audience again, so she dances.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:33

Yes. Yes. She does. Whilst Blanche just dies off in the corner.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:37

Well, this is the thing I wrote. We never know if she lives or dies. The police go over to her. We never see her die.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:44

I absolutely think she could have lived because I think so. I think although she was in a wheelchair, she was totally healthy.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:53

Until she started being starved and um, you know, didn't have anything to drink and whatever. So there didn't seem to be anything wrong with her. So I think she totally could live.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:03

She yeah, she could, but I think it I think it's interesting that they choose to leave it open-ended.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:09

Yes. Yeah. And presumably Baby Jane will now go and spend the rest of her life in prison because she killed Elvira.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:17

Oh yes. I forgot that bit. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:22

She's not is she she was mean to the sister, but she did kill the maid, so Yes, I think she would have diminished responsibility grounds. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:33

But you know, she would still certainly be.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:35

Here's a question for you.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:37

If Blanche does live, would she sort of be like, you know, throw, you know, lock her up and throw away the key, or would she sort of testify on her behalf, you know, she wasn't mentally right at the time?

SPEAKER_06 1:31:49

She would absolutely testify on her behalf.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:51

Yeah, I think so too. Because there's a real connection between them.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:56

There's a connection, and she's always had this guilt about the truth about the accident. But even before that, she had Blanche locked brought into her contract with like there's some sort of there's this like invisible thread between them.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:11

But there's a twisted relationship there, and yeah, I absolutely agree.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:16

But I like, and I don't want to bring us down, no, but I really do question the relationship between the father and Jane.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:30

To what sort of creepy degree that went to.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:36

But also from another, even if we don't take it down that road, I think Blanche as a child would have seen all these awful things going on with her sister. Because there were, you know, like I say, it would still be like, no, you get out there, you own us the money, I don't care if you're tired.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:57

And I so I sort of think Blanche's life and Blanche's success is always going to be built on that foundation of what Jane had to go through to get them to a place of success.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:10

Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it?

SPEAKER_06 1:33:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:12

The relationship sort of reminds me of um the sisters in Gypsy.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:19

It's very, very similar in um the way it's kind of sold to you, and obviously Gypsy as a whole focuses more on the relationship with the mother, where the mother in this is totally ignored.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:31

But the y these kind of family things where the kids are put in this position of being the one to earn the money, there's a strange kind of tie that even though you are being like potentially like abused or or just used, whatever, there there's a a tie there that keeps you coming back to your family. And yeah. I was interested because I it ri they really reminded me of the sisters from Gypsy.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:56

So I was like, is it based on them? It apparently is based on different uh because Gypsy's based on a real person. Yes. Um and this was apparently um partially inspired by different fictional uh no real life um sisters.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:10

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:10

But do you know like when Gypsy was released in comparison with this?

SPEAKER_06 1:34:15

It was it I think it was around the same time, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:34:18

One day different.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:20

One day?

SPEAKER_01 1:34:20

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:21

So you could go to the cinema, you could watch Gypsy, and then go and watch whatever happened to Baby Jane.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:28

Yeah, basically.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:30

Oh, what a homosexual opening weekend.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:33

It's mad, isn't it?

SPEAKER_06 1:34:34

That's crazy. It's like I was like And so thematically similar.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:38

It's so similar.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:39

Like very different interpretations.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:41

Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, I was I was really immediately struck by how similar the sisters are, the little blonde ringlety sister, and then this other sister who c steps out from being kind of you know, uh the the shy or whatever one to the the bigger star. And um I was like, it's got to be inspired by them. Apparently it wasn't, but the fact that they both came out one day different, yeah. Because when I saw it was the same year, I was like, well, how close was one day? So that is wild to me.

SPEAKER_06 1:35:12

And it's sort of interesting that Baby Jane kicked off the psycho biddy genre and it's attributed to them, yeah. Whereas actually I think you could say the same of Mama Rose. Like it's not I don't I you're not necessarily down the psycho route necessarily as much as well, definitely not as much, because she doesn't smash any burlesque dancers' heads in with a hand.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:38

No no, she doesn't go quite that far. But there's there is it's like almost like there was something in the water of like There was there's like a synergy between the two things. Of s a sort of strong um older female character.

SPEAKER_06 1:35:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:50

Yeah. But it's weird, sometimes that happens with like I remember there being two films inspired by Snow White at the same time. Yeah, I remember that. Two films about you know, like um an asteroid and whatever. It's like there's there's sometimes there's something in the ether where people have been drawn to the similar sort of themes, and there's definitely a lot of themes in those that are but if you want something fun, you'd watch gypsy.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:15

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:16

If you want some fun and some colour, and you know, as a musical, it operates in that sort of camp.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:21

You can have gypsy, but this is a very different kind of uh It's a very different kind of camp to anything we've encountered so far.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:29

It is.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:30

It's uh and this is a film I I would sit and watch it again. Like I don't hate the film.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:36

No, no.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:36

I just I I took issue with some of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:39

I think there are definitely questions to be answered. I think on on the same token, the way that they treat disability as a kind of plot point is not necessarily something that I would want to see people doing. Like if somebody's sitting down to write a story now, you know, having did I make you disabled or to make myself disabled as a plot point, I I wouldn't suggest that somebody go down that route. But I never like to like throw away things from the past.

SPEAKER_06 1:37:10

No, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:11

Because actually, if you do that, quite a lot of the time you won't have any representation left. Do you know what I mean? You won't have an interesting story about a disabled person, you'll just have nothing. Yeah. So I definitely think it's good. There's problems with you know those kind of representations. But I what compels me with this are those two central performances. Yeah. Like it's just it they're electric when you watch them with their arguments. And as I say, I'm sure I would be terrified of both of those women in real life, but I'm so glad to be able to see them like yeah, especially as they're in old in their older life, they're no longer playing just the ingenues or whatever, they're playing something that's really interesting and unusual one. I just I find it electric. I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:02

So that was the Camp Icons episode on whatever happened to Baby Jane. Certainly a bit of a different one this week. Absolutely, absolutely, yeah. Um, if you have enjoyed this week's episode, please like, subscribe, do all of those things to help us get up the rankings and get us into more people's ears.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:21

That's where we want to be.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:24

You can also follow our social media accounts on Instagram and TikTok. We are at Camp Icons Podcast. That is at Camp Icons Podcast, and our Facebook page is Camp Icons Podcast. What are you laughing at?

SPEAKER_01 1:38:38

You're saying it with the spaces. I just as soon as I figured that out, it just makes me laugh.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:43

Thank you very much for listening. Next week we are we're taking a bit of another pivot uh in the camp stratosphere. I don't know. Stratosphere, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:54

We're all over the place.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:55

We are looking at something that I think is actually identified as very straight.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:02

But camp.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:03

But definitely camp. We are going to the world we're going to the world wrestling entertainment thing. We're looking at it wasn't my idea, and we're looking to be looking at some classic wrestling clips. Although what I've discovered, there's not actually a lot of wrestling goes on. So thank you very much for listening, and we'll see you next week. Bye.