Camp Icons
Welcome to CAMP ICONS! Join Nick and Liz each episode as they take a tongue in cheek look at the life and times of a different Camp Icon, as well as watching and reacting to some of their campest moments! Watch along with the videos linked in the episode description to get the full camptastic experience!
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Camp Icons
Barbara Windsor
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Join us this week for an all new episode looking at British Legend Barbara Windsor! We take a look at Nick’s personal archive, her formative early years in the the theatre and the campiest moments of her TV and Film career!
Watch along with our video section at the links below!
The Good Old Days - https://youtu.be/uvb1Mpfk6lg
The More I See You - https://youtu.be/KX6Sv6wToKE?si=OYZEmB1-8fqjVjXL
Peggy Confront Pat and Frank - https://youtu.be/YZCJWVwhcIE?si=14SRUEKDvdh3NDlm
The Sunday Night Project - https://youtu.be/DLy6-ypJaLQ
Carry On Camping - https://youtu.be/002T3H-h3zc
We are indebted to those who have originally uploaded these videos, this podcast wouldn't be possible without them!
Follow us on social media for more nonsense:
Instagram - @campiconspodcast
TikTok - @campiconspodcast
Facebook - Camp Icons Podcast
Hello and welcome to Camp Icons. I'm Nick.
SPEAKER_05I'm Liz.
SPEAKER_01How are you, Liz? We've had a break, haven't we? Oh, I've it's been dreadful. I've missed you. I've missed you so much. I've been having the time of my life.
SPEAKER_05Well there you go. That's had two lives, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01I've missed you two.
SPEAKER_05What have you been doing then?
SPEAKER_01I've been at the Edinburgh Festival in an adult improvised pantomime. So I've been uh daming up.
SPEAKER_05It's quite camp, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01It's very camp. Um there was a photo that I sent you during the run of where I'd sort of lost it a little bit and I just those lips, I was there was more lip than anything else on my face.
SPEAKER_05Overdrawing them to a point where it looked like you'd just smashed a tomato on your face. Um they were they were mental breakdown lips.
SPEAKER_01And if you're lucky, you may get to see that on our social media.
SPEAKER_05We should have uh we should have an OnlyFans for that.
SPEAKER_01I don't think we should. I think there's a lot that people will pay for, but I'm not even sure I can give that away. But yes, we are back in your spare room.
SPEAKER_05Hooray.
SPEAKER_01To continue our crusade through camp.
SPEAKER_05An Odyssey of Camp.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And this week we are looking at the one, the only, the British icon, Barbara Windsor. Right, so I'm just gonna start by saying I love Barbara Windsor.
SPEAKER_05Yes, good.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_05I well, we should get that out of the way first of all, because I think she's great. It was she's just she is like a a a legendary figure.
SPEAKER_01She was part of two great British institutions, I think.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01In the carry-on films and then later in her career in EastEnders.
SPEAKER_05Yes. And do you want to address right now um how we have chosen to attire ourselves?
SPEAKER_01I don't know what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_05Because I think we've both gone Peggy. Yes. Which is her character in EastEnders, of course, Peggy Mitchell.
SPEAKER_01You've gone I would say later, Peggy Mitchell.
SPEAKER_05Right. I think you're just calling me old.
SPEAKER_01No No no no, because uh Peggy's hair went on a journey.
SPEAKER_05Oh yes, yeah, yeah. I know what you're saying.
SPEAKER_01You are sort of latter-day Peggy.
SPEAKER_05Yes. Yeah, when it's uh it's straight but up.
SPEAKER_01Yes, a big hive. A big high almost beehive like.
SPEAKER_05Yes. Because in her life often the hair was high. Yes. Very high. You have on your head a yellow curly wig.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_05Which are you saying this is early, Peggy?
SPEAKER_01Early to mid. Early to mid. You are going to see this hairstyle later on in one of the clips.
SPEAKER_05I'll look out for it.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_05Okay, good.
SPEAKER_01We we'll do a side-by-side comparison.
SPEAKER_05Oh yes, I'll enjoy that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I'll I'll sit next to the laptop when I press play. And I might lip sync along with the scene.
SPEAKER_05Oh wow. Because um you really you really, I think, are attached to Peggy Mitchell uh as a character.
SPEAKER_01I'm I'm attached to Barbara Windsor. I I would say that I grew up on carry-ons and east enders. Yeah. And food, like I food. That wasn't my sustenance. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Of carry-on and east enders. Yes. And look what happened.
SPEAKER_01But I mean I would say carry-on kind of influenced a lot of my comedy stylings, if you will. I won't. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_05I think yes, I I think we mentioned this because we have done a a carry-on icon before.
SPEAKER_01Yes, Kenneth Williams.
SPEAKER_05We did a Kenneth Williams episode. And yeah, I I love her in those films, and I also grew up with EastEnders. I f this feels like a time when everybody was watching EastEnders. Yeah. Yeah. So there's yes, she feels very familiar from those roles.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_05I don't know if I know as much about her as a person as some other people that we've done.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so what else do you know about her?
SPEAKER_05Well, I think she's just about you know She's just about it she had a very, very long career is what I I suppose I mean. She did. And so you don't think of there being anything that she couldn't do. She was always, you know, a very famous person. Um I think from back in the 60s when she did carry-on and also um other films, and I sort of I d what I'm trying to not say is that I remember her from Carry On, EastEnders, and the Garlabingo advert.
SPEAKER_01We all remember her from the Garlabingo advert.
SPEAKER_05It's very latter-day Barbara.
SPEAKER_01Well, it was just after she had left East Enders. That was the pretty much one of the first things she did. Was it really? And I remember at the time thinking, what are you doing? What are you doing, Barbara? But then in later life I learnt how much adverts pay and Yes, and Willie Morgan. Yeah. No. So she was born Barbara Ann Deeks on the 6th of August 1937.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_01The name Windsor is a stage name, and it came later in her career when the Queen was coronated. Really? She literally took the name Windsor from the Queen.
SPEAKER_05Oh, well, there you go. Okay.
SPEAKER_01She was placed into dance classes during a time when she was evacuated and staying with a family friend. And she seemed to instantly take to it. When she was sent back to London, she was sent with a note from her dance teacher that said, Barbara is a born show-off who loves to perform.
SPEAKER_05Lovely. Oh, okay. Teachers so often spot things that yeah, are really crucial to somebody's career. So that's a really interesting.
SPEAKER_01I yeah, I'm not sure if the dance teacher was necessarily being complimentary.
SPEAKER_05Not sure, but I feel like even just knowing that you stand out, like sometimes that works.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Uh I should say now, uh, I've got my information this week from Barbara Windsor's autobiography.
SPEAKER_05Oh yes.
SPEAKER_01It's called All of Me.
SPEAKER_05All of Me.
SPEAKER_01All of Me, yes. Uh, here it is. It's pink. It's pink. And this is the copy that I bought when it was originally published.
SPEAKER_05See, I tried to accuse you of being very attached to Barbara Windsor, and uh it's true, it's all true.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So how how old was she when this was uh published?
SPEAKER_01So this was published.
SPEAKER_05Because people do them now when they're like 21 or something.
SPEAKER_01She was when this came out, she was 64.
SPEAKER_05Okay, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Um as you can see, it's been quite well thumbed.
SPEAKER_05Yes. I have read it several times. Um amazing. Because there are very few books that I've read more than once. You know, like maybe 1984 or something. But you've you've really delved deep into the Barbara Windsor Autobiography.
SPEAKER_01The thing is, like I'd like to point out, I don't read it every week.
SPEAKER_05No, no, no, no. And don't be silly.
SPEAKER_01I always leave enough time so that I sort of forget what's in it, if that makes sense. Right. And there were things on this read that still made me go, what?
SPEAKER_04Incredible.
SPEAKER_01Um we'll get to those, but yeah. So when she came back to London, she was sent to Madame Bahana's juvenile jollities. No, that has to be made up. No, it's not made up, but I had to include it because that is a camp name.
SPEAKER_05Oh, it is?
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_05It's incredible.
SPEAKER_01I mean, calling yourself Madam outside of the four walls of a brothel is a bold choice.
SPEAKER_05It's already bold.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_05Juvenile Jollities, was it? Oh my god. Imagine trying to start that as a business now.
SPEAKER_01I know.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_01She got the highest 11 plus mark in North London in the year that she took it.
SPEAKER_05Okay. I didn't expect that. That's a very interesting fact.
SPEAKER_01No, and she got a scholarship to a Catholic school.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_01But she got into an argument with the Reverend Mother and was expelled when they wouldn't let her go and do a pantomime.
SPEAKER_05No.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Goodness me. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01She started appearing in shows and was one day given an audition for Joan Littlewood's theatre workshop.
SPEAKER_05Now, this is fascinating to me as a theatre sort of nerd, because you if you think of her as like a carry-on star, you maybe think of that as quite lowbrow sort of comedy. Yes. And Joan Littlewood's theatre workshop is like at that time like the cutting edge of like theatre and stuff.
SPEAKER_01It's much more Yeah, and it's still something that is cited now within theatre history as quite a groundbreaking thing.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01She turned up on the day of her audition to the theatre and found a woman outside sweeping leaves off of the steps and said, I'm here for the audition. And the woman said, Oh, it's round the back. Something along the lines of Are you excited or whatever? And she responded, I'm not really interested in it because I'm more West End and this is East End, so I'm I don't really care about it. She went in and she did the audition and she was stopped by a voice in the crowd who she then discovered was the woman that had been sweeping the leaves from the steps.
SPEAKER_05Of course.
SPEAKER_01Who was Joan Littlewood who said, You got the part before you stepped in the building.
SPEAKER_05Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Game recognises game.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05This is incredible.
SPEAKER_01She described working with Littlewood as formative. It was where she learnt her craft as an actress. Yeah. She'd done a lot of kind of singing and ensemble dancey type stuff before, but she really stepped into being an actress in this world. She was in a piece called Things Ain't What They Used To Be.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_01Then Littlewood fought for her to be in a film called Sparrows Can't Sing.
SPEAKER_05Yes, I've seen Sparrows Can't Sing.
SPEAKER_01So I've got a copy of it somewhere that I was going to bring today and I couldn't find it.
SPEAKER_05I've watched it a while back.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And it is an interesting mix of so at that time something they're really exploring is this kind of the non-glamorous, the real working lives of people. And there there is a scene where I I I think I'm remembering this right, where you just look into all of these rooms in this working class kind of council block of you know tower block, and you see all these kind of like gritty lives, and Barbara Wins just sort of looks in and giggles at all of them. And she feels very Barbara Windsor in this world of un you know, unglamorously, you know, washing the baby in the kitchen sink and all this. You know, is the kitchen sink kind of era.
SPEAKER_01So for that, she was nominated for a BAFTA for best leading actress.
SPEAKER_05Amazing, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. She's someone that you don't look back on now and necessarily consider was getting big acting accolades.
SPEAKER_05Absolutely. I think that's been forgotten, written out of her story, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Completely. She then went to Broadway with theatre workshop. She went to Broadway to appear in Oh What a Lovely War.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, which was a huge hit for theatre workshop. She kind of I don't know, cemented them in like a wider sort of knowledge, I think. Yeah, it just it was still experimental and still kind of like groundbreaking, but that going to Broadway and stuff is really making them uh making their name for themselves.
SPEAKER_01So this is something that shocked me, and I had to go back and read it again to make sure that I was fully digesting. Barbara Windsor is a Tony nominated actress.
SPEAKER_05Okay, yes, you you're so right. That doesn't seem possible, does it?
SPEAKER_01No. She was nominated for Best Featured Actress in Oh What a Lovely War on Broadway.
SPEAKER_05And again, I I know of Oh What a Lovely War, and I don't associate her with it. Which is she stayed famous and that has stayed famous, but they've just been separated from each other. And the fact that she won a Tony, I don't remember. She did win the Tony, she was nominated for Tony. She was nominated for a Tony. Never heard in my life. I can't think I've ever heard that.
SPEAKER_01For a bit of context, yeah. Um, on what was going on on Broadway at the same time that she was there.
SPEAKER_05Yes, this is what I need.
SPEAKER_01In two theatres down the road from Oh What a Lovely War, you had Barbara Streisand in Funny Girl and Carol Channing in Hello Dolly. Oh it's incredible.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Yeah. Wow.
SPEAKER_01Outside of this, she sort of made some other films, but she was primarily a theatre performer. And I said to you before we started, it was kind of a little difficult to find clips of her.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01But so much of her career was spent on the stage. Yeah. And again, we look at it now and we go, well, she was in Carrion and she was on Extenders, and it's all these sort of screen things that she's remembered for. She played Marie Lloyd in a tour about her life. And she also starred in The Beggars Opera opposite Vanessa Redgrave.
SPEAKER_05Which again, Vanessa Redgrave is so famous and a pinnacle of like theatre, like high ground theatre.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_05So you just you don't think of those two being together in the same world.
SPEAKER_01No, absolutely not. She was um she was a bit of a firecracker, was our bar.
SPEAKER_05Well, I would I had imagined so, and I'm glad to hear it.
SPEAKER_01Yes. She was working at a club as a singer once, and the manager pressured her into having a drink with a customer, and she kept saying, No, I'm a singer, I'm not here to be a hostess. She said in her autobiography, I picked up the bucket of ice we used to call ourselves between numbers and chucked it at him. Then I stormed out of the room and out of the club, leaving him drenched. Sod it, I thought, I couldn't care less.
SPEAKER_05Oh, good for her.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I think it's probably the only way she could have survived the sort of environments that she's been put into in that time. Yes. You know, as an attractive woman singing in clubs or whatever or, you know, whatever she's performing, there's a certain expectation of what she's gonna say yes to. So she had to be really feisty to to survive in that.
SPEAKER_01When she's was starring in her first carry-on film, which was carry-on spying, she had been warned that Kenneth Williams had a bit of a reputation for not being particularly pleasant to the new young actresses that came in.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01She said she went in on her first day and her first take, her first line, she fluffed it.
SPEAKER_03Oh god.
SPEAKER_01And he said to her, Oh, do get it right, Ducky. At the time they were making this scene, he was wearing a fake beard. I don't know how familiar you are with carry-on camping, but he had like a big fake spying. Spi spying. Did I say camping?
SPEAKER_05You did say camping. You can't wait to get to it.
SPEAKER_01I can't, no.
SPEAKER_05I've I have it's been a long time since I've seen Carry On Spying, but I can imagine him. Is it in a Fez? Is that him?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I think so. Fez and the beard. She said, Having heard he had fallen out with the actress Fanella Fielding, I pulled myself up to my full four feet ten and a half inches and replied, Don't you yell at meal with Vanella Fielding's min ja stuck round your chops. I won't bloody stand for it. She says, You could hear a pin drop on the set because no one knew how he was gonna respond.
SPEAKER_05I I bet.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And he just burst out laughing and said, Oh, isn't she wonderful? And they were like firm friends from that moment on.
SPEAKER_05Wow. Well that's the way to do it. Yeah. Gosh.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, she stood up to him and Yeah, he respected it. So, as I say, she was then cast in the carry-on series and she c became synonymous with her roles as a fun-loving good-time gal.
SPEAKER_05Yes, let's say that.
SPEAKER_01How how else would you put it?
SPEAKER_05No, no, no, I would, I would. I think I I really enjoy her performance in the carry-on films because she is she's always cast as incredibly sexy, but she seems to be having a good time of it.
SPEAKER_01She brings an energy to them sometimes as well, where so I've recently been embarking on a rewatch of all of the carry-on films in order. I'm still not at the end yet, but we're getting there. Okay. But you sort of go through those first films that are all in black and white, and they're of a 1950s Britain that's like dare I say, maybe a little bit stuffy, maybe a little bit it's all quite stiff upper lip.
SPEAKER_05It's Yes.
SPEAKER_01And then she comes in and she's just so different to anything else that's on the screen, and she feels like a new era. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I think yeah, I know what you're saying because she does have great energy and she always brings it to whatever she's being asked to do. So yes, there is something a slightly older English about some of those early ones. And this this new era with her has it has it a kind of sauciness that feels it might feel different now, but I think at the time felt youthful and new. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01She made the carry-on films, and unfortunately, they had a slight detrimental effect on her career.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because she was no longer seen as a serious actress.
SPEAKER_05No, she's been typecast as uh and she is really fun in those films, but you can see something that is that iconic and yeah, uh certainly it's lasted in our memories that she is the kind of saucy girl from that rather than a serious actress.
SPEAKER_01Rather than she was nominated for a bathroom and a Tony.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Her career kept going, like she was never sort of out of work or anything. She was starting to think that she might switch careers and become a theatrical agent. But she started thinking she might be an agent rather than continue performing. And around the same time she was called up by EastEnders.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_01They assumed that she wouldn't want the matriarchal role of Peggy. And she said, But that's the role. That's exactly the role she wanted at exactly the right time.
SPEAKER_05Wow, she knew what she was gonna do.
SPEAKER_01She started she talked with them for a bit and then they went silent. And she thought it was because a compilation of carry-on clips had played on the TV during the negotiations, and they'd looked at it and gone, oh, oh no, actually.
SPEAKER_05Oh really? Yeah. She so she it was so in her mind that that was a detrimental thing. She thought she'd lost it.
SPEAKER_01Completely. She went in uh in '93, I think it was 1993, she started playing Peggy. And she stayed in the role until 2009.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_01But making frequent guest appearances until she requested that the character was killed off in 2016. She basically said, All the while she's still there, I'm always going to be tempted to go back. So let's draw a line under it.
SPEAKER_05That's that uh that again is really interesting. It's like um Yeah, they could always talk her into it going back because there's just so much temptation. And I don't know if that comes from money or if it was like the love of the character, and you know, they would say, Oh, but we're gonna do this. Because there was some this is a thing, there were some really fun storylines that she was part of in EastEnders, and I can imagine being very tempted to go back and just have just have a laugh. Like they were I think now we kind of have boiled it down to that impression of her going, go on, get out of my pub. Yeah, but I d I think it was a huge show. The so you know, the soaps I think were bigger, and EastEnders was on a high for a lot of the time that she was there. And the storylines that she had, she had storylines a lot with uh Pat Butcher. Yeah it was just it was great fun TV.
SPEAKER_01It was again, I think the legacy of Peggy is these big clashes. Yes, but one of the storylines that they did with her in the 90s was quite a hard-hitting storyline about Peggy getting breast cancer.
SPEAKER_05She had breast cancer, I remember.
SPEAKER_01And they did it, I don't know if it was because she was so famous for her breasts in the carry-on films, but that certainly added another dimension to the idea of this person whose career was seen so much by the public as being breast orientated. That's the wish. I do know what you mean. It added another.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and I remember those scenes. They're really are powerful because I haven't thought about that in a very long time, but they're still there in my mind of her feeling this kind of yeah, this grief about going through uh you know mastectomy and this sort of uh relationship with her body which was all there on screen and she's doing all this and so very very big storylines for her to take on and yes, interesting interesting about the way that like what you're saying, her her boobs being an iconic part of her, an interesting way to sort of have that storyline in the like public consciousness, soap opera, like the characters so attached to you. There's kind of no distinction between Barbara Windsor and Peggy at that point, that yeah, it all becomes one thing in people's minds. It's just yeah.
SPEAKER_01She was made a dame in 2016. Dame Barbara Windsor.
SPEAKER_04Dame Barbara Windsor.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and she passed away in December 2020 after a battle with Alzheimer's.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, which I I feel I remember a lot of this playing out in the press.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_05She had a younger husband, and there's a lot of negativity around that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And he kind of had to come out and uh disclose the Alzheimer's because people, fans, would come up to her and want to talk to her, and she couldn't react to and you know, it could frighten her because she d didn't react the way they expected, and she didn't necessarily understand what was happening. And he I I don't, you know, I don't know much about him, but he had he seemed really protective of her at that point, and it felt like there'd been so much negativity written about him and their relationship. It was really there was a there was a sadness that I felt about how our media kind of treated them as a couple in her final years, and I think throughout most of their relationship, yeah, yeah, absolutely. There was always stuff about them which was just unnecessary, you know, it was their personal lives, and they were both definitely adults.
SPEAKER_01It was you know some other camp snapshots from life with Barbara?
SPEAKER_05I would love some, yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Uh in the early 90s, I went round Soho with Julie and Clary handing out condoms in pubs and clubs as part of a national condom drive. Can you imagine?
SPEAKER_05No, I was just gonna say, can you imagine that happening? Yeah, love. Oh, it was yeah, incredible.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Just before she got East Enders, there I was playing an 18-year-old boy bouncing around on stage with my hot flushes. I thought, bah, this is all wrong. This isn't good for you, not at 56.
SPEAKER_05Who had cast her as an 18-year-old boy?
SPEAKER_01She was playing Aladdin. She was in a pantheon.
SPEAKER_05Panto is a very weird. Panto moves differently. Yes. Yes, okay.
SPEAKER_01Would you like to know what she and her third husband, Scott, got up to after their wedding ceremony?
SPEAKER_05Well, I mean, will you judge me if I say yes?
SPEAKER_01No, I won't. And with the help of Champagne, we started singing Martin McCutcheon's hit song, adapting the lyrics for ourselves. This is our perfect moment.
SPEAKER_05That feels dated in a way to a moment in time that I just I can't explain to you. It's just so much of my like young life comes together in that moment. That sentence. That's so much. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I've got to do something now that we don't normally do on this podcast.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_01And the only reason I'm gonna do it is because she is so open about it in her memoir.
SPEAKER_05Oh good grief.
SPEAKER_01All of the information is out there and confirmed by Barbara herself.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_01We're gonna talk about her love life. Oh, well, I always want to talk about this. So she was married three times.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01She was married to Ronnie Knight, to a guy called Stephen Hollings, and then finally to Scott Mitchell.
SPEAKER_05Okay. He was called Mitchell.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01I didn't know that. Yeah, she became a real-life Mrs. Mitchell when she married him. Barbara says in the book that she sees a difference between love and sex.
SPEAKER_04Bic sure, okay.
SPEAKER_01Which I think now as a society we're kind of a bit more on board with in some respects.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Back when she was married to Ronnie, less so.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01She was not averse to an affair in a one-night stand. Let's put it that way.
SPEAKER_05Right, okay. Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01The list of men include It feels weird doing this, but like I've literally taken it from her own words.
SPEAKER_05It feels weird to you. Barbara's fine with it, and I am.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Reggie Cray.
SPEAKER_05Right. So one of the Cray brothers.
SPEAKER_01One No no. A One Night's Down with Reggie Cray.
SPEAKER_05Yep.
SPEAKER_01And a slightly longer relationship with Charlie Cray.
SPEAKER_05Oh. Charlie Cray? I thought the other one's called Ronnie.
SPEAKER_01So there's twins, Ronnie and Reggie, and then there's an older brother called Charlie.
SPEAKER_05Great. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yes. So not just one of the crays.
SPEAKER_05Sorry, sorry.
SPEAKER_01A highly publicised affair with Sid James.
SPEAKER_05Now this I did know of.
SPEAKER_01Who was 24 years her senior.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01That she starred with in the carry-on films.
SPEAKER_05This always surprised me because when you watch those films, he there's they wouldn't be the only couple on screen where you have a very attractive younger woman with a letteress, unattractive old man.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_05So the the surprise for me is that that one carried over into real life. Whereas most of them you just ignore.
SPEAKER_01So he liked her.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And was quite persistent about it.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_01And she says in the book, I thought I'd have sex with him once and it would kind of cool him down. Oh. Basically. Yeah. And it didn't. It just sort of got worse. And she eventually called it off. And then he started drinking heavily and shortly afterwards died of a heart attack. I don't think it was her like it wasn't her fault.
SPEAKER_05No, no, I don't think it was. I have to say, I mean, just I'd love the carry-on films. He's not my favourite. Um and yeah, just depressing kind of uh behaviour from him. Predictable but depressing.
SPEAKER_01Maurice Gibb?
SPEAKER_05Oh no, a BG.
SPEAKER_01A BG, yeah. She was in a theatre show with him, acting with him, and they didn't have great chemistry on stage. So she thought she'd sort it out.
SPEAKER_05She's such a professional. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01She said he was fine after that.
SPEAKER_05Was he?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Alright. I don't I don't I don't know my BGs well enough to know which one he is, but um any of them's not great.
SPEAKER_01George Best.
SPEAKER_05George Best. Now he was a looker and a ladies' man. I mean, these things happen, right?
SPEAKER_01Uh Gary Crosby.
SPEAKER_05Don't know.
SPEAKER_01Who was Bing Crosby's son?
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_05Um We're getting round a lot of different worlds. A lot of lot of worlds.
SPEAKER_01James Booth. Do you know James Booth?
SPEAKER_05Uh no.
SPEAKER_01I I don't really either. I but I wrote his name down because I was like, I think Liz will know who he is.
SPEAKER_05It feels familiar, but it's not coming to me.
SPEAKER_01I think he's an old film star, basically. Yeah from back in the day.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_01And finally, well not finally.
SPEAKER_05No, no, there's there's loads more we don't know about.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Friend of the pod.
SPEAKER_05Oh god.
SPEAKER_01Anthony Newley.
SPEAKER_04No. Not Anthony Newley.
SPEAKER_01Oh yes, Anthony Newley.
SPEAKER_05He's so horrible.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05We we, me and you cannot see the appeal of Anthony Newley. But somehow.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he's John Collins, Barbara Windsor.
SPEAKER_05He keeps cropping up, doesn't he? He keeps cropping up.
SPEAKER_01She later got him a role in East Enders. Like a guest stint that they thought was going to turn into like a regular role. Yeah. Um, but unfortunately his health had other ideas on that. Right.
SPEAKER_05Dear, oh dear.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and old Anthony Newley.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01We're turning now to a new section for the pod, which is called Camp Connections.
SPEAKER_04Do we need to jingle? We need a jingle.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I don't know.
SPEAKER_04Oh, or camp connections.
SPEAKER_01Okay, that's your job for the next few weeks. Well, basically, the more I delve into research, the more connections I'm finding between all of these people that we associate with being camp icons.
SPEAKER_05Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01There's a load of crossover.
SPEAKER_05The first ever episode that we did, you said to me that Scylla Black had been friends with Frankie Howard and Dale Winton and Lily Savage and all these people, and I just went, What's going on? There's somehow they're all finding each other.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_05They're out at the club.
SPEAKER_01So I believe we said, and if you're listening and I've got this wrong, please write in.
SPEAKER_05Please write in. Send a stamped address envelope.
SPEAKER_01I think that Joan Collins introduced Biggins to Scylla. Do you remember this coming up?
SPEAKER_05Oh, I don't, I don't remember. But but all of these people um do seem to know each other.
SPEAKER_01Also, ding ding ding, we've got a live one. She knew Joan Collins.
SPEAKER_05Right. Well, there should be some kind of bingo board that we have.
SPEAKER_01Do you think I should try and put like a family tree? Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Where they're all Joan Collins is the centre square of bingo.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_05Biggins is another pillar.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Here's one for you.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_01It was Barbara that introduced Biggins to Joan Collins.
SPEAKER_05Oh.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_05Okay, alright.
SPEAKER_01She says of Biggins. He's lovely for ladies like us, especially if you haven't got a gentleman to escort you to a premiere, or if you want to go to the movies, or even if you fancy fish and chips. Every actress should have Biggins in the small print of their contract as an essential.
SPEAKER_05I love that. Yes. He's bearding for a whole a whole generation of women. Yes. He's the, you know, the bloke you want around so that you don't get a hard time from any other blokes. I love it.
SPEAKER_01She'd like to know the guest list for her 60th birthday party. Of course. Now she opens by saying, I was thrilled with the turnout.
SPEAKER_05Good.
SPEAKER_01Gabby Roslyn.
SPEAKER_05That feels very you know when I said I was in a Martin McCutcheon perfect moment? Yeah. Gabby Roslyn feels like she's there.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Gabby Roslyn, John Chalice.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_05Voice C from Only Fools.
SPEAKER_01She's done quite a few tours with him, I think, in theatre shows.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_01John Inman. Of course. Danny LaRue.
SPEAKER_05Yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01The two Lionels, Bart and Blair.
SPEAKER_05Lionel Blair. I just don't think about him anymore.
SPEAKER_01But Dale Winton.
SPEAKER_05Of course. I told you you'd come up.
SPEAKER_01And Christopher Biggins, of course.
SPEAKER_05Yes, absolutely. Guest of honour.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So we're we're starting to build a picture now for this sort of social group. Oh, we are. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I'm building a picture.
SPEAKER_01Biggins, Winton, Windsor, Scylla. Oh, that's quite sad. It's only Biggins that's still alive from that list.
SPEAKER_05At time of record.
SPEAKER_01At time of record, Jesus.
SPEAKER_05Yes, okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, we're we will explore this further in further weeks.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. I want to know how everything How everything interconnects. How everything interconnects, this world of camp.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I'm gonna leave you for the sort of life section with a quote that Barbara said when she accepted an award, which I think sums her up, just encapsulates her quite well. I've had awards for my eyes, my bosoms, my bottom, and even my feet. They say actors are only as good as their parts. Well, my parts have served me pretty well.
SPEAKER_05Oh, I love it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Brilliant.
SPEAKER_01Shall we move on to some camp clips? Let's have it. Oh, it's been ages since we've done this. So long since we've had a clip. I know. We are going now to 1977. And a TV show that I think we've mentioned before that we've never watched.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_01The TV show is The Good Old Days.
SPEAKER_05The Good Old Days.
SPEAKER_01And the point of the show was to present like old music hall and variety acts on TV for a slightly more modern audience.
SPEAKER_02Slightly. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Modern at the time, not modern to us. So here is Barbara Windsor in an act on the good old days.
SPEAKER_00Get out of my pub with pleasure.
SPEAKER_01So there we have Barbara Windsor as Dolores, a magician's assistant, in an act called Marvo and Dolores.
SPEAKER_05Yes, I don't know Marvo. Is he uh we don't know him. Is he an actual magician? It doesn't seem so.
SPEAKER_01I don't think so.
SPEAKER_05The whole thing is a comedy act. So they're tricks that you would recognise, but not performed well.
SPEAKER_01Correct.
SPEAKER_05And I I when you said this is for a more modern audience, I did question that because the good old days, they are all dressed up. Even the audience are, as though it were an old-fashioned Edwardium Edwardium music hall.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um and like we weren't alive in 1977. No. Right? But 1977 is like punk has started. Like this is it feels like this is a oh, wasn't it better in the good old days? Let's just pretend all of this modern stuff hasn't happened.
SPEAKER_01And the the what like the concept of this show is camp in itself.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because everyone fully buys into the bit of it being an Edwardian musical.
SPEAKER_05It's so ridiculous to me to get the audience to dress up and then present this whole thing as though modern society hasn't happened. And um you do get little flashes of like uh what modern sensibilities are. So while they're doing their act, you know, initially Babs comes on. Yes, and she's in her assistant's outfit, which is quite revealing.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_05They I would say we've got almost a full bum cheek on display.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_05And you know, initially, with the help of the orchestra, she's demonstrating ba da where the you know guy's gonna come out. And obviously he comes out of the wrong exit, uh entrance, whatever.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05You get all that. But then you get them talking to each other and doing little bits.
SPEAKER_01Aye Sort sort of meant to be under their breath, but Well, she's leaning fully into the sort of cockney sensibility of the character. She's full cockney here. She's full cockney.
SPEAKER_05We associate her with bit with being Cockney, but this is maximum cockney.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's sort of uh it's sort of carry-on cockney.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's the the level to which she plays those carry-on characters is now transported into this Yes Cockney magician's assistant.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so she looks very glam. Yes. But then when she speaks it's playing with ideas of Oh, it's a bit deep for the first one back.
SPEAKER_01It's playing with ideas of class and gender. Yes. Because traditionally I'm not saying that this is the case. Traditionally, magician's assistants are sort of quiet women who are there to look pretty and have tricks done to them, basically.
SPEAKER_05And they would be voiceless.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_05Almost always in this type of act. Where so we get the kind of her her y voice is supposed to be funny of itself.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Don't you talk to me like that. I'm not your wife, I'm only living with you.
SPEAKER_05Well, this is what I mean by the modern sort of sensibilities, is they make a joke that yeah, they're just living together and it's Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And she she's performing every inch of the character. There is not a moment wasted in what she's doing.
SPEAKER_05Oh, listen, when you were talking about dancing earlier, I thought I should have known that she was a dancer because she manages to travel the stage with a little shuffle, and the top half of her doesn't move.
SPEAKER_03No.
SPEAKER_05And so she uses her physicality in wonderful ways that I've kind of probably always just skipped past. But yeah, she does the little shuffle, she's doing a shimmy, you know, she's given us the full babs with a shimmy, and yeah, she's selling it a lot more than him, I would say. He seems quite bored.
SPEAKER_01She's a funny woman.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01At a time where funny women weren't really encouraged I guess.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, no, it I mean it's always been difficult to be a woman and tr and try and be funny. But yeah, it's it's uh almost always the man will be the centre of things. She's the funny one in this act.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he's the straight man.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And she's getting all the laughs on his behalf.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so he he does like he makes her pick a glove up.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_05And there's and she bends over.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05There's not a lot of reaction to that. I would say that that is a cheeky moment.
SPEAKER_01It's a is yes, in more ways than one. We don't it.
SPEAKER_05We don't talk a lot about cheeky.
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_05But I think as it's a Barbara Windsor episode, we probably should.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_05It's like it's like a sort of cousin of camp. Like they're not always the same thing, but there's some crossover.
SPEAKER_01I so as I was watching this, I thought there's something quite camp about having some sort of music every time you do a gesture.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So when she presents him, you get a drum hit, and when she bends down, you get a swanny whistle, and it's like every single movement that she does is accompanied by some sort of noise, I guess.
SPEAKER_05Yes, which is meant to be like a sort of uh a trope of this act, which you know, with the the sort of ta'da moments would be highlighted, but they use it here in a camper way to do the jokes as well. But they they often in um some of the carry-on films have sound effects that are that you wouldn't associate with uh a film generally.
SPEAKER_01No, and I mean on my carry-on rewatch, one of the things I'm appreciating is the sound design of them.
SPEAKER_05It's interesting.
SPEAKER_01Because if you took away all the sound that wasn't dialogue, yeah, there's something almost like silent, there would be sort of like silent movies about them because it would feel very empty.
SPEAKER_05It's interesting with the changes that have happened in our lifetime to sitcoms where like canned laughter has gone out of fashion, and there is a fashion now for um not having anything added like that. And it's I I find it a shame because those things kind of signal you that you're watching a performance, and there's a a big trend now to have it so that you don't feel like you're watching a performance, everything's reality. But actually watching a performance and being part of a communal group, even if they aren't really there, you're hearing their laughs recorded, is a different feeling, and I think you should be able to have both, which is why this is fascinating with this Edwardin audience, because I'm sure I've seen a clip of this where they all sing along as well.
SPEAKER_01That's one of the tropes of the show.
SPEAKER_05These are like communal events, and her performance there for an audience, even though we're watching it recorded, is a different kind of performance, like uh you know, heightened kind of to a different layer than we would, you know, if it was just recorded in a studio.
SPEAKER_01They're as much a part of the performance as she is, I would say.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and her her energy matches that.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_05Um, which is interesting when you're talking about her having been having done a lot of live theatre. I can imagine there are actors who wouldn't or or certainly like you know, famous people who wouldn't take to this as well as she does. Yes. But she is enjoying every minute, I would say.
SPEAKER_01But speaking of enjoying every minute, in 1999 she released an album.
unknownDid she get it?
SPEAKER_01Called You've Got a Friend.
SPEAKER_05Now I notice you're not going for your clips. You're going for your bag. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I've got the CD.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01I didn't buy it at the time. This has been a subsequent eBay purchase.
SPEAKER_05I am actually surprised to hear that.
SPEAKER_01Um but yeah, you've got a friend. The track list includes Well the title track, You've Got a Friend, is a duet with Steve McFadden.
SPEAKER_05Who it isn't?
SPEAKER_01Who plays?
SPEAKER_05You have to be joking.
SPEAKER_01Phil Mitchell, the East Enders.
SPEAKER_05Are you joking then?
SPEAKER_01I'm not joking. You can have a look at it in a minute if you like. Other songs on there include You Made Me Love You, I Say a Little Prayer, As Long As He Needs Me.
SPEAKER_05Great.
SPEAKER_01And what used to happen in 1999 was if you released a single and it got on the charts, you would go and perform it on Top of the Pops.
SPEAKER_05That did used to happen. I forgot that that is now a historical uh fact.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And so we are about to watch a duet of the song The More I See You, which if you're not familiar with, you will be in a moment. Featuring Mike Reed and Barbara Winthers.
SPEAKER_00Get out of my pub with pleasure!
SPEAKER_01First of all, I must apologise, dear listener. It's not Top of the Pops that they were on. They were on performing this on the National Lottery programme.
SPEAKER_05Yes, that gets us into a whole nother thing about how camp the National Lottery used to be. Yes, I I didn't question it when you said that they'd been on Top of the Pops because 99's right in the right in that spot where it may have been when Top of the Pops started to die. Um Top of the Pops, it What are you saying? Well Top of the Pops at one point in history may have been a very cool programme to be on, and then by the end nobody cared what was on it, and this being right in the middle of that journey made sense to me. Okay. You know, you know what I'm saying? I think we should also clear up Mike Reed, because there have been several famous Mike Reed's.
SPEAKER_01Yes, this is of course Mike Reed, who played Frank Butcher in EastEnders.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01And at the time that this duet was recorded, Barbara Windsor and Mike Reed's characters were married. So Frank and Peggy were uh um an item.
SPEAKER_05An item at the time. Yes. Yes. Because there was also the thing with there was a there's a lot of back and forth between him and Pat Butcher.
SPEAKER_01So first of all, let's talk about what Barbara looks like.
SPEAKER_05She looks wonderful.
SPEAKER_01She looks wonderful. She's she's giving the hair this is what I mean by sort of latter stage, Barbara.
SPEAKER_05The hair is very high.
SPEAKER_01It's very high, yes.
SPEAKER_05Uh it's a very uh white blonde. And she has a dinky little glitzy jacket on.
SPEAKER_01Yes, beaded lilac.
SPEAKER_05And then, you know, a a dress that matches. It she I was thinking about her physical form, right? Okay. Because she is very small, she's very she's like not even five foot, and she has these large boobs, and her physicality is very, you know, uh uh unique and she uses it in a funny way.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_05She almost always is sacheting, shimmying.
SPEAKER_01She She knows how to make the most of her body in every movement.
SPEAKER_05She's you yes, she's using the way that she looks to d to sell whatever she's doing, and it's yeah, she really has a sort of uh a style about her which i is fun and funny and sexy and yeah, a lot of things going on. So she's shimmying around this stage.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I it I'm I'm sort of sick of the word, but the performance is to excess.
SPEAKER_05To excess.
SPEAKER_01To excess. She's you don't have to walk like that to get from one side of the stage to the other. But she is gonna milk it for all it's worth. In the best possible way.
SPEAKER_05That's not a this is why we're fascinated by her.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Because it it's it's like a type of uh a charisma. You know, there's a sensuality about it or something. She's a much older woman by this stage, but she's still selling a sex in a very cutesy, charming way that she says she doesn't have to do that, but she's enjoying She's having fun. Having fun.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05She's coating up to Mike Reed, who it's very much a I think uh shows the difference um in uh what's expected of men and women. Right. She is selling us in every movement. It looks like she's an expert on how to sell sensuality and cheekiness and fun, and he just basically stands there and can't sing.
SPEAKER_01Well, my next question was what do you think of the song?
SPEAKER_05Um so I did recognise the song when it started. Okay.
SPEAKER_01There was a little flash uh of some text halfway through that said it had also been sung by other legends such as Ella Fitzgerald. How do you think this version compares?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, um I would say the um the the the vocals probably aren't as strong.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_05On this. Um you're looking at me, you know, I'm gonna say that's because of my greed, and then I think you'll let me out of this room alive. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Well, my my follow-up question is does it make you want to listen to the rest of the album? Oh Would you have watched this on the National Lottery and thought I need to go and buy this album?
SPEAKER_05Um well the to the first part of the question, would you have watched this on the National Lottery? I imagine my parents wouldn't have let me switch over.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_05Um but I couldn't imagine leaving the room. It's I did it it does, when I look at it, it does feel a little bit like um culture's beginning to die at this stage. You know, it's on the National Lottery, which I don't it was never cool. It was never cool. Whatever they did with it, they did various shows. Yeah, they tried a lot of things the lottery, they showed they tried everything, and all of it was crap.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think a lot of it was Dale Winton.
SPEAKER_05A lot of it was Dale Winton.
SPEAKER_01I'm not saying that he made it crap. No I'm just he was involved in. He did his best.
SPEAKER_05I'm sure he did his best.
SPEAKER_01And before that, I there was a oh, I don't want to say disease. Um what? There was a there was a whiff of Anthea Turner to the whole thing.
SPEAKER_05Oh, yes, Anthea Turner.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_05I was gonna say make she rest in peace. I'm sure she's not.
SPEAKER_01She's still with it. She's she's still with it.
SPEAKER_05But her career isn't. Um yes, just I don't know, just something about the lighting gave me very noughties. You know, we're moving into the naughties from that l, I don't know, sort of grim blue lighting with random hotspots of geometric f steel furniture.
SPEAKER_01And do you think it was camp?
SPEAKER_05I think it was camp. I think Babs was bringing the camp though.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_05I think everybody else was just there.
SPEAKER_01Babs raised the camp levels.
SPEAKER_05Absolutely, because she's really selling us a type of glamour a glamorous performance, some elegance, something showier than whatever the rest of this is.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_01We're gonna stick with Mike Reed.
SPEAKER_05Are we? Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Now, I had several options for an EastEnders clip. And there was one that just kept rising to the surface when it came to Barbara. And I think the reason that it did is that you don't often in soap get a monologue. They're quite pacey, they're quite back and forth. You do a scene, you're on to the next. In the year 2000, they gave Peggy a bit of a monologue that has gone down as I think an iconic part of EastEnders history.
SPEAKER_00Get out of my pub with pleasure! Oh, it's powerful stuff.
SPEAKER_01Do you remember watching that when it first aired? Yes, I did. Yeah, so do I.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. As I said, this is a like a high point for EastEnders.
SPEAKER_01Completely.
SPEAKER_05People were watching this, and as they were so the the scene we've just watched is Peggy in the pub confronting her husband, Frank, and um Pat about what they've done. And as as it's happening, we're cutting round to all of the other people in the pub who are watching this unfold, and I recognised all of them in a way that is like it's like going to a family reunion.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_05And like people that you know so well, and you think, oh yeah, he was here last time, he's always doing that. Like it they feel so familiar to me years later when I haven't thought about any of this for a long time. And so if you can imagine at your family reunion, the thing that takes place is somebody gets up and reads a letter confronting two people about an affair, you would never forget it, but and it is that dramatic.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I one of the comments on YouTube on this video is could you imagine if you just popped in the pub for a quiet drink and this was going down.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05But that is exactly the point. I can imagine that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05You know, it soaps they take place in a kind of reality, but it's heightened, and I think they're at their best when you kind of you can imagine that taking place, and you can imagine the drama if the local where you always hang out, something like that was going on, and you can just about get away with how dramatic this is. I mean, to start off, her performance is incredible.
SPEAKER_01She goes through such a range of emotions in one delivery.
SPEAKER_05It feels like it feels exactly right to me for like if your you know, your auntie or your gran or whatever was getting wanted to confront someone, she starts off, she's sort of like almost apologetic for having interrupted everybody, like, excuse me, everybody, I've got to do this, and she uses the word wickedness about what they've done, and she injects it with such venom, yeah, there's something very much of an older woman who has to hold their tongue to keep the family peace all the time. And finally, when I let you have it, I let you have it in a way that you will never forget.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. She also uses to get a little technical about the acting, she does much the same with the word Pat.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01I've never stopped myself loving Pat.
SPEAKER_05She injects venom into it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And just before she starts the letter as well, so she she says, you know, it's like an award, she's you know, just before she starts the letter, there's a tremor in her voice, like she's nervous about what she's got to do. Yeah. And the way she delivers it, obviously, her you know, her as an actor, she's not nervous. It's it's giving that character thing of like this is such a big moment in Peggy's life that she can hardly believe she's gonna do it, but with every fibre of her being, she's gonna throw as much at them to let them have it as possible. And yes, it's it it is very camp because we get to such a level.
SPEAKER_01I think it's and I think it goes back to what we've sort of said earlier, it's almost kind of theatrical acting.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01And that's not to say that the bubble of realism is completely burst.
SPEAKER_05No.
SPEAKER_01It's not like she's overacting everything to the point of it not working on screen, no. But there is certainly a size to it.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01That in your everyday EastEnders, where they're just, you know, buying some bananas from the market, you're not necessarily getting it's not being played for the back row.
SPEAKER_05The fact is it works for what it's trying to do, because if you had somebody deliver that in a more in a more realistic way, in a very naturalistic way, it would feel flat. But in a world of heightened reality, you have to take it to an operatic level.
SPEAKER_01And I suppose actually, now that I think about it, Peggy is performing to an audience. Absolutely. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05She is. So she reads this letter that is what Frank has written to Peggy to explain that he's never stopped loving Pat.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And the letter ends with, by the time you read this, you know, we'll be gone or whatever. Um but Peggy has discovered it and so reads it aloud for everyone's benefit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05To shame them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And you feel her character's pain.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_05Even though what she's do you know, selling is anger. You feel all the kind of nuance of the pain, and she makes it public because she's so hurt that she's like, Well, here you go, this is what these two people are really like.
SPEAKER_01And it it doesn't break until she says goodnight to everyone at the end.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And she's finally sort of stepping back from this public humiliation into actually having to live with it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Hope you all enjoyed the fireworks.
SPEAKER_05Good night. That's the part of which it really feels cap.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_05Because I think she's acting that moment of right, I've got through it and now I've got to go back to my real life and how sad I am. Um and so when it drops, that's when it feels like.
SPEAKER_01Oh my god, this was so It it so it was also set on firework night.
SPEAKER_05Right, yes.
SPEAKER_01Which is which sort of again adds a little camp.
SPEAKER_05It is camp, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01Notion to hope you enjoyed the fireworks.
SPEAKER_05If you plan your revenge based on um, you know, what day you're gonna deliver it, that's definitely camp.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I do think in this instance, if I remember correctly, she only found out Okay, you know.
SPEAKER_05And she did it immediately.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, pretty much.
SPEAKER_05I would sit on it. I think I'd wait for something I can do a pun about.
SPEAKER_03Of course you would.
SPEAKER_05Can you imagine? I'll save it to St. Patrick's and like St Patrick who drove the snakes. I now shall drive the snakes out of my pub.
SPEAKER_01Do you now understand my wig?
SPEAKER_05Uh yes.
SPEAKER_01It's not a perfect match.
SPEAKER_05No, no, no, I understand the wig. I understand, yes, yes. I think I'd forgotten an era of Peggy.
SPEAKER_01Early to mid.
SPEAKER_05Early to mid, yeah. I've forgotten it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I don't think it's the best Barbara Windsor era for Okay. Wig wig only. Yeah. Wig only. I think the acting, great, great work. Wig, not so much. I prefer the paler, higher hair.
SPEAKER_01But the th so the thing is, is that was just Peggy.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01Because the picture you see in front of you on the CD and on the booth absolutely my preferred Barbara Windsor hair. Is the same time period.
SPEAKER_05Yes, and it's clear these are all wigs.
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_05It's clear we're wigging all the way over the way.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I mean There she has the Venn diagram with Cher.
SPEAKER_05To be honest, I do think I'm having this memory now in the moment. I do think when she came back and she didn't have so much of the the hair that you're talking about, I do feel like that was a point in which I went, no, that's not Peggy, that's Barbara Windsor hair.
SPEAKER_01Right, okay.
SPEAKER_05You know that it didn't feel right, it felt too showbiz. There's a there's a realism, not to yours, but to her hair there. Anyway.
SPEAKER_01We're moving on now to watch some Barbara Windsor Just Being Barbara.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_01We are watching a clip from when she hosted the Sunday Night Project.
SPEAKER_05I don't know what that is.
SPEAKER_01It was on channel four, it was hosted by Alan Carr and Justin Lee Collins, who is a great man.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Um, but we didn't know at this point.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01And it was, I guess it was sort of almost trying to be a bit Saturday Night Live.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01They'd have a guest host who would come on and they'd sort of do sketches with them, they'd have sections where the audience could ask them questions. What we're going to watch is something called Who Knows the Most about the Guest Host, where they bring on two people that they know. In this instance, it's Patsy Palmer and Anna Karen. Oh and they form two teams and they have to try and answer questions. I would say this has bonus camp in the form of Alan Carr and Anna Karen being on a team together. But I wanted a bit of Babs as Babs.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01So here we go, Sunday night project.
SPEAKER_00Get out of my pub with pleasure!
SPEAKER_01Right, so that is Barbara hosting the Sunday night project.
SPEAKER_05I can see now why I don't remember this. There's a number of horrifying things have taken place.
SPEAKER_01There are some other things in the episode which I didn't include, which I would argue are worse.
SPEAKER_04Good grief.
SPEAKER_01Um there was a very special reason I wanted to bring this clip. Can I tell you why?
SPEAKER_04I I wish you would.
SPEAKER_01I was in that live studio audience.
SPEAKER_04What?
SPEAKER_05I didn't know about this.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I was in the live studio audience. A friend of mine had applied for audience tickets, and I think I believe when you applied for them, like you didn't know any information about who was hosting it or anything. Right. And then once you were sent the tickets, if you were successful, they told you who it was. And as soon as they found out who it was, they phoned me and told me that I was coming.
SPEAKER_05Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so yeah, I went to the live recording with Barbara Windsor as host.
SPEAKER_05That's wow.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I remember I remember that bit quite vividly. I w I watched the whole thing back in prep, and there were things I did not remember at all about the format or the show or things that were said or things that happened.
SPEAKER_04Walked it out.
SPEAKER_01There's a bit after this where Alan Carr and Anna Karen come on dressed as Angetta and Anna Fried from ABBA and Drink Waterloo.
SPEAKER_05In terms of camp, we're really up there.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I think this bit in particular is uh gives us some quite camp barber moments.
SPEAKER_05Yes, so she yeah, she's hosting.
SPEAKER_01She's hosting.
SPEAKER_05And it's a little game show bit. So Anna Karen, I I don't know if people remember Anna Karen. I think of her as Olive from On the Buses. Yes. But she did she was in EastEnders and As Peggy's sister. As Peggy's sister.
SPEAKER_01She was also in Carry On Camping.
SPEAKER_05Of course she was.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Right. So they've known each other for a long time. Yeah. Patsy Palmer, of course, um from EastEnders, Bianca, would know Peggy as well uh would know Barbara Windsor as well. But th they don't get a lot of chance to speak.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_05Because the two like regulars, Alan Carr and Justini Collins, are doing most of the talking.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I seem to remember when they filmed it, Patsy said more.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it just didn't make the edit.
SPEAKER_05There's a very uncomfortable part. They're joking about the Mile High Club. Yes. And he's trying to make it sexual. Anyway.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_05They're joking about the Mile High Club and they s and s sort of throw to Barbara, has she ever joined the Mile High Club?
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_05To which she says, Oh, of course.
SPEAKER_01And then she says, You're very naughty, you wheedled that out of me.
SPEAKER_05You wheedled that out of me. There's a couple of great lines that she kind of throws away.
SPEAKER_01She she's asked where where she was going when she joined the Mile High Club.
SPEAKER_05She says, Jersey.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Which is just funny.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05If you had to think of a funny location, Jersey is funny. It's neither far away nor very sexy sounding. And she also when they reveal that it's Jersey, they say, Well, that's only about half hour, couldn't you have waited? She says, In those days I couldn't.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Which is very fun and very sweet, but a lot of it is lost in the chaos.
SPEAKER_01There's something camp, I think, about a 72-year-old woman talking about her active sex life.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. And I think I think she really does it in a way that uh she feels in charge of whatever goes on, she feels in charge of of speaking about that in a way that she wants to. Yes. And that like she's enjoyed herself in life, you know?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yes, and there's also the reveal of uh so one of the questions is what was unusual about your honeymoon? Yeah. Obviously some jokes there, but the reveal of the answer is that she took Kenneth Williams and his mum and his sister.
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_05Which is lovely.
SPEAKER_01Yes, it was a bit mad.
SPEAKER_05It's mad, but I I love it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Took Kenny Williams on honeymoon.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, which Anna Karen knew, so they're proper friends. You can tell. Yeah, you can tell that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know if I've got much else to say. I just wanted to See a bit of Babs in her.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. I also like the Swannee whistle.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_05It is the campused sound effect.
SPEAKER_01There's a reason that it begins and ends every one of our episodes.
SPEAKER_05Right, exactly. Did you not know that? I of course I'm a regular listener.
SPEAKER_01Yes, we begin with a swanny up before the hello. Right. Then we do the theme tune.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Then we do the episode. Yep. And then we get a swanny down before we go to the outro.
SPEAKER_05Brilliant. I'm so glad to hear it.
SPEAKER_01Great, great. Great.
SPEAKER_05I must have just I must have just forgotten that that was the first one. Yeah, sure. Okay.
SPEAKER_01I've got one more clip.
SPEAKER_05Have you?
SPEAKER_01And I've saved the best till last. Okay. I think. The best slash the most iconic. And believe it or not, I had to create this clip package myself. Did you? I had to download the entirety of Carry On Camping. Because there's no like Barbara's best bits in Carry On out there, which I think is insane.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But here is a selection of clips from Barbara Windsor in Carry On Camping.
SPEAKER_00Excellent. Get out of my pub with pleasure.
SPEAKER_01So there we have Barbara at her carry-on best.
SPEAKER_05It's amazing how iconic that has become, the uh the yellow bikini top flinging away.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, completely.
SPEAKER_05It's um It's probably the thing people think of when they think of carry-on.
SPEAKER_01And Barbara Windsor.
SPEAKER_05And Barbara Windsor, for sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What always surprises me about carry-on camping, if I watch it now, is how much it has like seeped into my soul. Because so I work in theatre and I've worked in touring theatre, which involves getting things in and out of vans and stuff. And to this day, if anyone says at the end of the night, are we all loaded? My response is not half. And the majority of the time nobody knows what I'm talking about. But it's so like You've internalised it. Are we all loaded? Not half. Um Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Amazing.
SPEAKER_01And also To a lesser extent, I don't say this in every day.
SPEAKER_05No.
SPEAKER_01What is it, Barbara dear? It's just the way he says it, like it it's in there.
SPEAKER_05I think it's lucky you don't have anyone called Barbara who My Nan was called Barbara.
SPEAKER_01But you um I didn't ever say it to my nan. Though weirdly it was sort of my nan that uh got me into the carry-on films, but it's a story for another day.
SPEAKER_05I've see, I don't think carry-on camping is one of my favourites. I don't think it's one of my most re-watched. But this this moment where her her um bikini top flies off, I I mean I have always questioned the uh validity of these exercises they're being asked to do.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_05I would suggest to you that fling and in, fling and in has no no value whatsoever.
SPEAKER_01It's not been on my recent workout list.
SPEAKER_05No, no, no, no. But it is it is one of those that I think the imagery of it became iconic to carry on. Yes. And she is very funny in it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05There's also a moment earlier that went in the thing that we were watching where she does a laugh that I recog I recognised it as sort of like her me and you are talking about sex and I'm enjoying it laugh.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_05So that the line is about something that implies sex, and she sort of leans forward and does this snigger like it kind of like has an extra an extra bit to it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, which was sort of known in the carry-ons for that giggle.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. I clearly can't do it because but it's it's sort of the way that she does it lets you in on the idea that this character enjoys sex as much as the bloke's.
SPEAKER_01She's part she's part of the joke, she's not the butt of the joke.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Other camp things going on in this clip is Hattie Jake's hair slash towel on her head slash hair.
SPEAKER_05That makes it sound so much worse than it is.
SPEAKER_01It's a continuity error.
SPEAKER_05Yes, it's uh a a hair towel turban thing.
SPEAKER_01Yes, just it appears and disappears between cups. Yeah. I think there's a campness to this moment also when you know the story behind filming it. They were filming this in mid-November.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_01And the way that the shot was achieved was there was a man with a fishing wire that had to pull the bra. And on the first take, he pulled, the bra didn't come off, she went flat on her face.
SPEAKER_04Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_01And the director said, Get her up, hose her down, we'll go again. Which I just think's brilliant.
SPEAKER_05Not a lot of glamour in acting.
SPEAKER_01No, and we also see her full boob.
SPEAKER_05Yes. Now this is a thing, right? When they made these movies, I think I said this about Barbarella as well. It was gonna be on the big screen, nobody had the ability to pause, rewind, check. So it's it's there and gone. It's like that side boob that's there and gone.
SPEAKER_01So for more context, this was released the same year as Barbarella.
SPEAKER_05Was it? Yes. Oh interesting.
SPEAKER_01And they filmed the shot that's in the film, and Hattie pulling the hand away w was an accidental thing.
SPEAKER_05Oh, it's an extra.
SPEAKER_01And they filmed it again because they didn't think they'd get it past the censor.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I guess.
SPEAKER_01And they sent both versions to the censor, and I believe the censor's response was I don't think one of Barbara Windsor's breasts is going to corrupt the nation.
SPEAKER_05Well, little did they know.
SPEAKER_01Well. But there's I think you see it less in this film because it comes later in the carry-on run. But you see this sort of fizzy energeticness to her in contrast to Kenneth Williams' quite severe old British stiffer upper lipper.
SPEAKER_05You could just say stiff upper lip. That's what I meant. But you add it a lot. You're adding a lot to that.
SPEAKER_01But you know what I mean.
SPEAKER_05I know I know what you mean. Of course I do.
SPEAKER_01And so yeah, you get you get this contrast, and that kind of energy brings with it a campness. It's kind of, dare I say, anti-establishment. Kenneth Williams is the establishment. Yes. Barbara Windsor is sort of young and fruity and fruity.
SPEAKER_05I think she yes.
SPEAKER_01A couple of watermelons going on.
SPEAKER_05I mean, you could call both of them fruity. But um she Yes, I understand what you're saying. She's poking fun at him because he's playing this kind of stiffer upper lipper.
SPEAKER_01Stiffer upper lipper.
SPEAKER_05He's telling her off about how short her shorts are.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_05Which is a real thing that people were worried about.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Are we calling them shorts? Because I don't think there's enough material there.
SPEAKER_05No, a short generally goes past the bum. Yes. At least some they're beyond even Daisy Jukes. It's just she's wearing a bodysuit that just ends on the bum.
SPEAKER_01It's more of a leotard, isn't it?
SPEAKER_05It is really, yeah. That's how short the shorts were getting.
SPEAKER_01Who wears short shorts? Babs wears short shorts. So we've talked about Barbara, we've looked at some clips. What do you think Barbara's legacy is?
SPEAKER_05I think certainly she as this as this kind of figure from the carry-on films, she's she's associated with that version of camp. We talked about like a British camp. There's a kind of nudge and a wink. Nudge and a wink, a naughty seaside postcard type of humour to her that she is very synonymous with and is just a big part of that. But yeah, in her acting in East Enders and stuff, she kind of came with you know, a new generation, our generation were growing up watching that, and there's some very strong acting. I do think it gets forgotten in kind of this uh this persona that we think of. But she's she's definitely she's central to what British camp is.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I would completely agree. What if that's what you think her legacy is, is there anything that you think her legacy should be?
SPEAKER_05I'm really thinking about this kind of early start that she had with like theatre workshop and yeah, I'm really wondering if because she's performing in carry-on and because she's associated with being the sexy girl, whether we're not seeing how good of an actress she is.
SPEAKER_01So I wonder with her sometimes if our view of her as camp sometimes diminishes the work that she's done slash is doing. Because I mean, even in that clip from East Enders that we watched we watch it and go, that was a camp moment, all that was camp, but that sort of almost takes away from some of the acting skill that she's putting into it and the layers and the nuance and stuff because we go, or remember Peggy Mitchell, she was camp. Oh about oh Bar, Bar was camp.
SPEAKER_05Like Remember slapping people in the pub and throwing them out?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, no, I absolutely because I was watching it today, having heard you talk about her like theatre sort of start, thinking this is really good. And actually, I think it kind of when you compare it to some performances now, because you will get people who are put into soaps or other things where they're like a name and they don't have that kind of background and training to give you a performance like that, you you take it for granted that she could do that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And I think I think that is something that I've definitely not thought about. And it is a kind of misogyny as well that we have, like, because she's sexy, because they she's thrown into these films where she's there to be attractive and to be the one with the boobs, that we don't notice how much she's doing and how how good she is.
SPEAKER_01Yes, because she was funny in those films as well. Yeah. Like she was allowed to be funny. And actually I I like I obviously I've been doing this rewatch. I could talk about the carry-ons.
SPEAKER_05We could talk all day about that.
SPEAKER_01But I think sometimes they are I think they gave m women more opportunity to be funny than we necessarily remember them for.
SPEAKER_05I agree.
SPEAKER_01Particularly like Joan Sims, Hattie Jakes, Barbara. There were absolutely some girls that were there that they employed to be eye candy and they didn't really give them any sort of opportunity beyond that.
SPEAKER_05Yep.
SPEAKER_01But I do think that they were also allowing women to be funny.
SPEAKER_05This is the problem when you kind of critique them and say that they were very sexist. And yes, they're written with that kind of sexist humour baked in, and uh, some of them are really extreme, um, especially towards the end, with that. But that critique kind of stops you from seeing what good work the women in them were doing, and yeah, there's there's performances there that I don't I don't like the idea of overlooking them because then you have people like Esma Cannon who is an incredible performer, and you just um you you throw the baby out with the bathwater if you say, Oh, these are sexists and I don't want to watch them. It's it's fine if you don't want to watch them, but the there are women in them who are doing such great work and have such interesting roles. I think sometimes we get hung up on you know like what is you know, whether it's like progressive or not, it's like it's either in or out. We can't have any kind of nuance or grey area.
SPEAKER_01It can't be both.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I think Babs is both. I think she's camp, but I also think she's incredibly talented.
SPEAKER_05Very talented. I've really enjoyed thinking about her in more depth. I think that's the the the thing is missing is depth, and I've really enjoyed actually sitting and thinking about that today.
unknownWoo!
SPEAKER_01Well, that was the Barbara Windsor episode of Camp Icons. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please give us a like, a subscribe, leave us a review, it really helps get the podcast in other people's ears. You can also follow us on social media. We are on Instagram and TikTok at Camp Icons Podcast. And we also have a Facebook page which is now up to 5,000 followers. We wrote it off at the beginning. That is Camp Icons Podcast. Next week.
SPEAKER_05I don't know who we're doing.
SPEAKER_01You don't know who we're doing.
SPEAKER_05It's a surprise to me.
SPEAKER_01I have been doing something I never thought I would for next week. I have been knee deep in Fanny. Yes, next week we are looking at the queen of 1950s cookery programmes. The terrifying Fanny Craddock. You excited for a bit of Fanny next week?
SPEAKER_05Of course I am. You know me.
SPEAKER_01Right. Well, thank you very much for listening, and we'll see you next week. Bye.
SPEAKER_04Bye.