SPEAKER_02: I want you to turn to 1 Kings chapter 12.
SPEAKER_02: 1 Kings chapter 12.
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for all those who are doing the music tonight and everything.
SPEAKER_02: 1 Kings 12.
SPEAKER_02: And Exodus chapter 1.
SPEAKER_02: And good.
SPEAKER_02: Come on in.
SPEAKER_02: Ushers, we've pretty well got everybody a seat and everything.
SPEAKER_02: If not, we'll find everybody a seat.
SPEAKER_02: Abom, everybody pretty well.
SPEAKER_02: Nobody in the four year tonight.
SPEAKER_02: In good shape.
SPEAKER_02: Everybody in already good.
SPEAKER_02: Doing our best in the balcony to give you some uh air up there.
SPEAKER_02: 1 Kings 12.
SPEAKER_02: And Exodus chapter number 1.
SPEAKER_02: Okay, good.
SPEAKER_02: Let everybody get situated just for a moment.
SPEAKER_02: I need to give you a disclaimer right at the start of this message.
SPEAKER_02: I've not preached something like this.
SPEAKER_02: I probably, you know, after so many years preaching in a church, you say, I don't think I preached something like this.
SPEAKER_02: Ah, you probably preached just a little bit of everything by this time, uh, but I don't remember speaking concerning some of the uh topic I want to get into tonight.
SPEAKER_02: Have you ever uh wanna start in the political trail where uh a politician will be giving it a speech at a commencement or some type of uh graduation, maybe, or something like that.
SPEAKER_02: And it seems like instead of talking to the graduates, he's talking to the cameras about an opponent.
SPEAKER_02: Do you ever notice that stuff?
SPEAKER_02: They they take an opportunity for a speech somewhere that's some memorial type of thing, and they they use it to lash out uh they're uh opponent.
SPEAKER_02: And that's a political move, and I want to say this to you tonight.
SPEAKER_02: For those of you who uh are are in our church and maybe you've been saved here, you don't know of other churches or anything like that.
SPEAKER_02: You're wise to be stay simple concerning what's going on, sometimes even beyond our church and the scope of what's going on in the different movements.
SPEAKER_02: Now, there's a lot of you who've been outside of our church, and and you know there's a lot of different movements, and this group and that group and this leader and that leader and all that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_02: And I want to say this right at the start tonight so you understand.
SPEAKER_02: I'm not using our pulpit tonight to lash out at some other leader, like a politician would do.
SPEAKER_02: Uh let me make it clear tonight that I don't have any opponents outside of this church, and I don't know of any opponents inside of the church.
SPEAKER_02: Let me say it again.
SPEAKER_02: Uh, this is not, as you hear the message, you're gonna say, boy, I know who he's talking about, or I know what kind of group he's talking about, or I don't know.
SPEAKER_02: You know what?
SPEAKER_02: I'm talking tonight, I'm gonna talk to you about oppressive leadership.
SPEAKER_02: Oppressive leadership.
SPEAKER_02: And the reason I'm giving you this message tonight, there are husbands in here that are leaders over wives.
SPEAKER_02: There are husbands and wives that are leaders over children.
SPEAKER_02: We have ministry leaders.
SPEAKER_02: We have men and women that are involved in businesses.
SPEAKER_02: And the Bible is very, very clear in some areas about how to lead.
SPEAKER_02: It's important to me, for me tonight to know, for you to know, though, that it's not like I'm attacking some other pastor at another church or uh, you know, uh some movement somewhere or this group or that group.
SPEAKER_02: Believe me, what they do in their church is totally up to them.
SPEAKER_02: Say amen.
SPEAKER_02: What they preach and what they teach, and you know what's so great too?
SPEAKER_02: I don't have to worry about being in anybody's approval zone.
SPEAKER_02: I uh all I'm concerned tonight is that the Lord is pleased with the message as it goes forth.
SPEAKER_02: I'm not worried about, you know, uh you listen to tapes from different various in a sundry, you know, and somebody says, Well, I know they'll be getting this tape and sending it to my enemies.
SPEAKER_02: Well, you know what?
SPEAKER_02: If you get this tape, go ahead and send it to my enemies.
SPEAKER_02: I just don't know who you could send it to.
SPEAKER_02: Because I don't know who cares about me in that respect.
SPEAKER_02: Amen.
SPEAKER_02: It's not like I'm fighting anybody.
SPEAKER_02: Every once in a while, as a pastor, you hear about, well, do you know so-and-so, or it's against so-and-so, and where do you stand?
SPEAKER_02: I don't stand anywhere.
SPEAKER_02: I stand with our local church and what the Lord wants us to do and let them fight it out.
SPEAKER_02: Amen?
SPEAKER_02: So I don't want you to think tonight as I go through this, because after a while, as I go into this a little bit, you're gonna say, Oh, you know, I don't know if I understand that.
SPEAKER_02: It's not a political agenda tonight to where I'm gonna use this pulpit and this church to obligely attack somebody.
SPEAKER_02: Uh to me, don't take this wrong.
SPEAKER_02: That's childish.
SPEAKER_02: Look at 1 Kings chapter 12.
SPEAKER_02: 1 Kings chapter 12.
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes uh what we have to do is we look at leadership a little bit, and you might say, I don't feel like a leader.
SPEAKER_02: If you're a leader of a ministry or if you're a person getting older in our church, then you're becoming a leader because younger people look to you as you get older and they want to follow your ensemble.
SPEAKER_02: 1 Kings chapter 12, if you would, says this uh in verse number 6.
SPEAKER_02: And King Rehoboam consulted with the old man that stood before Solomon his father, while he yet lived, and said, How do ye advise that I may answer the people?
SPEAKER_02: And they spake unto him, saying, If thou wilt be a what?
SPEAKER_02: Say it.
SPEAKER_02: Servant, a servant unto this people this day, and will serve them and answer and speak what?
SPEAKER_02: Talk to me.
SPEAKER_02: Good words to them, then they will be thy servants, how often?
SPEAKER_02: Forever.
SPEAKER_02: Now, listen, what you just saw there was one brand of leadership.
SPEAKER_02: One brand of leadership, and may I say to you, this is depicted in the Bible.
SPEAKER_02: And God put it in here for uh for a purpose, and he said it, hey, the older men gave counsel.
SPEAKER_02: Here's what you do: serve the people, answer them, speak good words to them, and they'll serve you forever.
SPEAKER_02: That's one style of leadership, if you would.
SPEAKER_02: Now, you know uh he goes and he gets the other uh counsel, if you would, from the young ones.
SPEAKER_02: Look at verse 8.
SPEAKER_02: But he forsook the counsel of the old men which they had given him, and consulted with the young men that were grown up with him and which stood before him.
SPEAKER_02: And he said unto them, What counsel give ye that we may answer this people who have spoken to me, saying, Make the yoke which thy father did put upon us lighter.
SPEAKER_02: And the young men, here's the other side of leadership, that were grown up with him, spake unto him, saying, Thus shall thou speak unto this people that spake unto thee, saying, Thy father made our yoke heavy.
SPEAKER_02: But make thou it lighter unto us.
SPEAKER_02: Thus shall thou say unto them, My little finger shall be thicker than my father's loins.
SPEAKER_02: You know what he's saying?
SPEAKER_02: Hey, your father had a had an oppressive style of leadership.
SPEAKER_02: You just make sure you tell him you're going to even be more dominating, you're gonna exercise even more authority, and his my little finger is gonna be stronger than my father's loins.
SPEAKER_02: Now that's another style of leadership.
SPEAKER_02: So, do you see the contrast there?
SPEAKER_02: And by the way, this is inspired by the Holy Spirit of God.
SPEAKER_02: God put it in there for us in this day to look and read and understand about two different concepts of leadership.
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna make a statement to you.
SPEAKER_02: The first style of leadership is godly, the second style of leadership is satanic.
SPEAKER_02: Let me say it again.
SPEAKER_02: The first style of leadership is serve them, answer them, speak good words to them, and they'll serve you.
SPEAKER_02: The second style of leadership is you be in charge.
SPEAKER_02: You you you you say, hey, listen, my father, he put a he put a burden on you.
SPEAKER_02: Solomon in building the temple, if you would, and Solomon in building his own house and everything.
SPEAKER_02: But you wait and see what I'm gonna do for you.
SPEAKER_02: It's oppressive.
SPEAKER_02: Now, if you follow this out and study this out through the Bible, look uh look at Exodus chapter 1.
SPEAKER_02: Exodus chapter 1.
SPEAKER_02: There's two styles of leadership in general depicted here.
SPEAKER_02: Exodus chapter 1.
SPEAKER_02: And Pharaoh is a type of who?
SPEAKER_02: Satan.
SPEAKER_02: That's right, the devil.
SPEAKER_02: And look at his style of leadership in Exodus chapter 1.
SPEAKER_02: Stay with me.
SPEAKER_02: And notice, if you would, verse number 8.
SPEAKER_02: Now there arose up a new king over Egypt which knew not Joseph.
SPEAKER_02: And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children are Israel more and mightier than we.
SPEAKER_02: Come on, let us deal wisely with them, lest they multiply, Exodus 1.
SPEAKER_02: And it come to pass that when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies and fight against us.
SPEAKER_02: Verse 11.
SPEAKER_02: Therefore they did set over them what?
SPEAKER_02: Say it, taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens.
SPEAKER_02: Mark it down, it's satanic leadership.
SPEAKER_02: Is that right?
SPEAKER_02: Come on, talk to me.
SPEAKER_02: And they built to Pharaoh a treasure city, and it goes on, it says, uh, in if you would, uh verse 13, and the Egyptians made the children of Israel to serve with rigor.
SPEAKER_02: And they made their lives bitter with what?
SPEAKER_02: Say it, hard bondage.
SPEAKER_02: That's satanic in mortar and in brick, and in all manner of service in the field.
SPEAKER_02: All their service wherein they made them serve was with rigor.
SPEAKER_02: If you remember what goes on here, they even say, hey, listen, when their babies are born, look, and the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which, and it goes on in verse 16, he said, When you do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women and see them upon the stools, if it be a son, then you shall do what?
SPEAKER_02: Kill him.
SPEAKER_02: Does that remind you of anybody in the New Testament?
SPEAKER_02: Herod.
SPEAKER_02: The idea is we're gonna serve, or we're gonna lead them by oppression.
SPEAKER_02: We're gonna lead them by putting them into bondage, we're gonna lead them by putting them under the, if you would, the grievous burdens to be born.
SPEAKER_02: Look at Matthew 23.
SPEAKER_02: Matthew chapter 23.
SPEAKER_02: This is all through the Bible, if you study it as a generality, that two different styles of leadership.
SPEAKER_02: One is you oppress, you you put bondage on them, and you keep them under with threats, if you would, and this heavy bondage.
SPEAKER_02: Look at Matthew chapter 23.
SPEAKER_02: And with Matthew 23, would you pick up John chapter 9?
SPEAKER_02: Matthew 23 and John chapter 9.
SPEAKER_02: You say, preacher, why are you telling us this?
SPEAKER_02: Because husbands have to lead.
SPEAKER_02: Parents have to lead.
SPEAKER_02: Ministry leaders have to lead.
SPEAKER_02: Businessmen and women have to lead.
SPEAKER_02: And there's leadership principles in this book.
SPEAKER_02: Matthew 23.
SPEAKER_02: Look, if you would, in uh at verse uh one, then spake Jesus to the multitude and to the disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
SPEAKER_02: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do.
SPEAKER_02: But do not ye after their what?
SPEAKER_02: Say it.
SPEAKER_02: Works.
SPEAKER_02: For they do what?
SPEAKER_02: They say, and do not.
SPEAKER_02: For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be born, and lay them on men's shoulder, but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
SPEAKER_02: You know what that is?
SPEAKER_02: It's an oppressive style of leadership that says, I'm the leader, you do the work, and I'll watch you.
SPEAKER_02: It's not teamwork.
SPEAKER_02: It's almost like there's a class system.
SPEAKER_02: Now, please look up here.
SPEAKER_02: In a marriage, if we're not careful, there can be a class system.
SPEAKER_02: I'm the husband, you're the wife.
SPEAKER_02: I tell you what to do because it's Father, Christ, man, woman.
SPEAKER_02: Amen?
SPEAKER_02: Isn't that what the book says?
SPEAKER_02: The head of Christ is who?
SPEAKER_02: God.
SPEAKER_02: The head of man is who?
SPEAKER_02: Christ.
SPEAKER_02: And the head of woman is so I'm the man, you're the woman, bear the burden.
SPEAKER_02: I'm taking my role, and you got your role, woman.
SPEAKER_02: Now there's something wrong with that.
SPEAKER_02: It would be like this.
SPEAKER_02: I'm the pastor, and you're not.
SPEAKER_02: I'm the man of God.
SPEAKER_02: Be careful.
SPEAKER_02: Touch not thou the Lord's anointed.
SPEAKER_02: Hey, you know what?
SPEAKER_02: If we're not careful, it almost would become like I'm a Catholic priest or something.
unknown: Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_02: You say, why'd you say that?
SPEAKER_02: Because Catholicism stinks of this oppressive leadership.
SPEAKER_02: You say, I don't like that.
SPEAKER_02: Listen, let me tell you something.
SPEAKER_02: If you go and study theology and history, what do you do with indulgences?
SPEAKER_02: It was a way of oppressing the people.
SPEAKER_02: What do you do with the Catholic Inquisition?
SPEAKER_02: It was a way of oppressing the people and bringing them under.
SPEAKER_01: What do you do with purgatory?
SPEAKER_02: It was a way of bringing them under and keeping them under.
SPEAKER_02: Are you listening to me?
SPEAKER_02: You say, I know some good Catholic people.
SPEAKER_01: I'm not talking about the people, I'm talking about the system stinks.
SPEAKER_01: It's a system that deals with oppressive leadership.
SPEAKER_01: Kiss my ring.
SPEAKER_01: Because I'm the Pope.
SPEAKER_01: There's something wrong with that.
SPEAKER_01: Satan, you're a second thing.
SPEAKER_01: There's something wrong with an oppressive leadership.
SPEAKER_01: It's not God, it's satanic.
SPEAKER_01: Read your Bible.
SPEAKER_01: Somebody says, well, he's the vicar of Christ.
SPEAKER_01: No, there's something wrong because he's acting like a Pharaoh.
SPEAKER_02: He's acting like a Pharisee.
SPEAKER_02: Come on, talk to me.
SPEAKER_02: Now, if you're in here tonight and you say, boy, I didn't know I was getting myself into this.
SPEAKER_02: We're talking about leadership styles, and there's two styles in the Bible.
SPEAKER_02: One is heavy burdens to be born, and the other is servitude.
SPEAKER_02: If you read and study it out, talk about, look at 2 Kings chapter 11.
SPEAKER_02: Hold your place in Matthew 23.
SPEAKER_02: We'll come back there later.
SPEAKER_02: Look at 2 Kings 11.
SPEAKER_02: Read it as a whole and think about it.
SPEAKER_02: And then what we want to do is analyze our own leadership style.
SPEAKER_02: If you're a husband, analyze it.
SPEAKER_02: If you're a wife, analyze it.
SPEAKER_02: If you're a parent, analyze it.
SPEAKER_02: If you're a ministry leader or in leadership somewhere, analyze it.
SPEAKER_02: What kind of leader of you?
SPEAKER_02: If you're in business, are you the leader in the type of leadership that God wants you to do and be?
SPEAKER_02: Look at 2 Kings 11.
SPEAKER_02: Are we okay tonight?
SPEAKER_02: 2 Kings 11.
SPEAKER_02: And notice this style of leadership stinks, if you would, of the satanic way.
SPEAKER_02: Look at verse 1.
SPEAKER_02: And when Athaliah, the mother of Ahaziah, and by the way, you trace it back, Athaliah had ties into Ahab and Jezebel.
SPEAKER_02: And when Athaliah, the mother of Ahaziah, saw that her son was dead, she arose and destroyed all the seed royal.
SPEAKER_02: What does that mean?
SPEAKER_02: She killed all the young boys, if you would, that could have raised up to be on the throne.
SPEAKER_02: She took it over.
SPEAKER_02: She missed one, we know that.
SPEAKER_02: But she killed them all.
SPEAKER_02: What that is, is a matter of oppressive style of leadership.
SPEAKER_02: The style stinks of it this way: if someone opposes or is a threat, get rid of them.
SPEAKER_02: Come on, talk to me, yes or no?
SPEAKER_02: Because they are a threat, be careful, don't take that, don't work with them, just get rid of them, and that's what Atheliah did.
SPEAKER_02: Or it goes farther and farther in that, if you would.
SPEAKER_02: You see this way.
SPEAKER_02: For example, uh Ahab and Jezebel.
SPEAKER_02: Their style of leadership was hey, if Naboth's in the way, lie about him and kill him.
SPEAKER_02: Come on, yes or no?
SPEAKER_02: Just lie about him, set him up on high, and get rid of him and kill him.
SPEAKER_02: Don't you think the Pharisees did the same thing with Jesus?
SPEAKER_02: Come on, yes or no?
SPEAKER_02: They lied about him, they set up false witnesses and they lied about him, and they they said, Oh, this man said he would destroy the temple and bear it, raise it up in three days.
SPEAKER_02: And they they they took him before the council, if you would, and they convinced the government to destroy him.
SPEAKER_02: It was an intimidating style of leadership.
SPEAKER_02: It was oppressive, it was an insecure style.
SPEAKER_02: Amen?
SPEAKER_02: Look a little bit further with me, and uh, let's go back, if you would, to Matthew 23, and you've also got John chapter 9.
SPEAKER_02: Look at Matthew 23.
SPEAKER_02: They bound heavy burdens and grievous to be born.
SPEAKER_02: Look if you would over at uh verse uh 23.
SPEAKER_02: Jesus says unto them, This woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for you pay tithe of mint and eyes and common, and have omitted the what?
SPEAKER_02: The weightier matters of the law.
SPEAKER_02: Then he names them judgment, mercy, and faith.
SPEAKER_02: These ought yeah to done, and not to leave the others what?
SPEAKER_02: Undone.
SPEAKER_02: They had distorted what, if you would, pure religion was, and they had got to the place that was almost like this.
SPEAKER_02: Remember when Jeroboam set up his own religion?
SPEAKER_02: He set up the golden calves and got the lowest of the people to be the leaders and everything like that?
SPEAKER_02: They had almost set up a Jeroboam-style religion that didn't have anything to do with what God intended as far as servitude.
SPEAKER_02: They had set themselves up in a class system where they were the leaders, and everybody had to bow down to them.
SPEAKER_02: And look, if you would, at verse 28.
SPEAKER_02: Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within you are full of hypocrisies and nickery.
SPEAKER_02: Please look up here.
SPEAKER_02: How they outwardly appeared was extremely important to them.
SPEAKER_02: Status, if you would.
SPEAKER_02: Now there was a great fear and and apprehension that went on.
SPEAKER_02: Look at John chapter 9.
SPEAKER_02: Stay with me.
SPEAKER_02: John chapter 9.
SPEAKER_02: In John chapter 9, look if you would, uh, this is where the parents of the son that was born blind got healed.
SPEAKER_02: But look at the parents' response in verse 20 of John chapter 9.
SPEAKER_02: And by the way, I'll bring this all into focus in just a moment.
SPEAKER_02: John chapter 9, look at verse 20.
SPEAKER_02: His parents answered them.
SPEAKER_02: Who's the them?
SPEAKER_02: The Pharisees that are questioning.
SPEAKER_02: His parents answered them and said, We know that this our son, and that he was born blind.
SPEAKER_02: But by what means he now seeth, we know not.
SPEAKER_02: Or who hath opened his eyes we know not.
SPEAKER_02: He is of age, ask him, he shall speak for himself.
SPEAKER_02: Then look at verse 22.
SPEAKER_02: These words spake his parents, because they what?
SPEAKER_02: They feared the Jews.
SPEAKER_02: Why?
SPEAKER_02: For the Jews had agreed already that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the what?
SPEAKER_02: Synagogue.
SPEAKER_02: And by the way, it was more than just leaving a building, it was leaving a culture.
SPEAKER_02: Let me use this word, and I don't know if it's a good word.
SPEAKER_02: What they were afraid of was getting blackballed.
unknown: That's right.
SPEAKER_02: Amen?
SPEAKER_02: They were afraid of being marked.
SPEAKER_02: And to be marked in that communion, be put out of the synagogue would have meant they they couldn't buy and sell.
SPEAKER_02: It's almost like being down south in a masonry lodge.
SPEAKER_02: Come on, are you okay back there in the back?
unknown: Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_02: The idea here was if you don't do it all the way, we're gonna put you out.
SPEAKER_02: It's an oppressive style of leadership.
SPEAKER_02: You say, how do you relate?
SPEAKER_02: It would be like me standing up here in a pastor and saying, now listen, if you do this, I just want you to know.
SPEAKER_01: Raise the back door, buddy, and you can just take your phone! Get out of here.
SPEAKER_02: What kind of leadership is that?
SPEAKER_02: Show me where Jesus said that.
SPEAKER_02: You know what he did after he preached and a bunch of them left?
SPEAKER_02: He looked at the disciples and said, Will you go away also?
SPEAKER_02: He never said, if you don't believe that, it'd be like a husband and wife bantering back and forth.
SPEAKER_02: What kind of leadership is that?
SPEAKER_02: Come on, talk to me.
SPEAKER_01: It would be like parents threatening their young children.
SPEAKER_01: You don't get square one kicking you out of this house!
SPEAKER_02: At 15 or 16.
SPEAKER_02: What kind of leadership is that?
SPEAKER_02: Come on, talk to me.
SPEAKER_02: Am I hitting something that's a sacred cow?
SPEAKER_02: What kind of leadership is that?
SPEAKER_02: Now you say, no, wait a minute.
SPEAKER_02: Isn't there something in this book that speaks of authority?
SPEAKER_02: Sure there is, but it's abused.
SPEAKER_02: It's distorted.
SPEAKER_02: You say, now, let me ask you something.
SPEAKER_02: I'm in this church, I haven't been here long.
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, well, you got a whip for a pastor.
SPEAKER_02: Don't you believe in pastor authority?
SPEAKER_02: I believe in pastoral authority.
SPEAKER_02: I don't just just don't believe in exercising and and threatening with it all the time.
unknown: Come on.
SPEAKER_02: It ought to be the exception rather than the rule.
SPEAKER_02: Do you ever see those uh birds that uh have little white things under their wings, and when you get too close to their nest or something, they start going like this?
SPEAKER_02: Trying to scare everybody off.
SPEAKER_02: Do you ever see that kind of stuff?
SPEAKER_02: Come on, talk to me, yes or no?
SPEAKER_02: Let me just stop here for a minute.
SPEAKER_02: Am I hitting something?
SPEAKER_02: Are you awake tonight?
SPEAKER_02: Or am I just caught you off guard a little bit?
unknown: Oh no.
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I was down south and I saw one of those birds down there, and there was a cat just kind of watching and had it exposed.
SPEAKER_02: And this bird was going like this.
SPEAKER_02: That bird couldn't have stopped that cat.
SPEAKER_02: But it was just going like this.
SPEAKER_02: And a lot of times I see it being taught and everything that the pastor's supposed to stand up and go like this.
SPEAKER_01: Are you scared yet?
SPEAKER_01: Have I got you under control yet?
SPEAKER_02: Amen?
SPEAKER_02: You say, what will the Pharisees do?
SPEAKER_02: They like to be bowed down to.
SPEAKER_02: They like to be lifted up with names.
SPEAKER_01: They like to be called master.
SPEAKER_01: Doctor.
SPEAKER_02: Are we okay?
SPEAKER_02: Rabbi.
SPEAKER_02: Father.
SPEAKER_02: You know, don't get offended if somebody walks in and you're in the lobby and somebody says, uh, hey uh, Brother Doug, come here, I want to talk to you for a minute.
SPEAKER_02: Don't don't get off this.
SPEAKER_02: Don't talk to my pastor that way! Oh, relax, would you please?
SPEAKER_02: Just relax.
SPEAKER_02: I don't go home and, oh, oh, I'm so burned up, Patty.
SPEAKER_02: Somebody called me Brother Doug tonight.
SPEAKER_02: Doesn't bother me at all.
SPEAKER_02: Pastor is a title you earn.
SPEAKER_02: Preacher is a title you earn.
SPEAKER_02: You don't have to come to my defense off of that.
SPEAKER_02: Now, if they call me some dirty, rotten, ugly name.
SPEAKER_00: Let me know! I'll kill you by the church!
SPEAKER_02: I hope you're understanding my sarcasm.
SPEAKER_02: Because what that can be is oppressive, threatening.
SPEAKER_02: Are you one of the pastor's private detectives?
SPEAKER_02: There's narcs in this place.
SPEAKER_02: We okay back there, Scott?
SPEAKER_02: Can you hear me okay out there?
SPEAKER_02: Hey, you know what?
SPEAKER_02: I want you to know, uh, as far as I know, we have not set up our narc ministry yet.
SPEAKER_02: Now, you know what?
SPEAKER_02: I've asked our associate pastors, our ministry leader, to be eyes.
SPEAKER_02: So we know how to help and know what to do and when there's trouble and problems.
SPEAKER_02: And we do deal with problems, we do deal with trouble.
SPEAKER_02: But it's not like we're gonna mark you.
SPEAKER_02: What an oppressive style of leadership.
SPEAKER_02: He said, now, preacher, bear this out a little bit more.
SPEAKER_02: All right, look at uh 1 Samuel 19.
SPEAKER_02: Stay with me.
SPEAKER_02: I know so-and-so, and he doesn't lead that way.
SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm not I'm not against so-and-so.
SPEAKER_02: Let him lead the way he leads, amen.
SPEAKER_02: Amen.
SPEAKER_02: 1 Samuel 19.
SPEAKER_02: I'll say plenty of words tonight.
SPEAKER_02: 1 Samuel 19.
SPEAKER_02: You can begin to lump some people together in the Bible.
SPEAKER_02: Uh what we talked about, Rehoboam.
SPEAKER_02: Lump him together with Pharaoh, with Herod, with Athaliah, with Ahab, with the Pharisees, and with Jeroboam.
SPEAKER_02: Just lump them all together because it's the same style of oppressive, threatening leadership.
SPEAKER_02: Hey, uh, show me in the Bible where it says, husbands threaten your wives so they be in submission.
SPEAKER_02: Show me where it says that.
SPEAKER_02: It says just the opposite.
SPEAKER_02: Husbands love your wives.
SPEAKER_02: Render due benevolence one to the other.
SPEAKER_02: I I can say this to my wife is here.
SPEAKER_02: I cannot remember the last time I threatened my wife.
SPEAKER_02: I can remember the last time she threatened me, but now I'm just kidding.
SPEAKER_02: Just kidding.
SPEAKER_02: Stay with me.
SPEAKER_02: Come on.
SPEAKER_02: I want you to get truth, but I want you to be light too.
SPEAKER_01: I don't want her walking around and oh, oh, oh, Doug's coming home, Doug's coming home.
SPEAKER_01: Quick, quick, get the house picked up.
SPEAKER_01: I don't want him to throw me up against the wall.
SPEAKER_02: We're not planning on having our house as a museum for another twenty years.
SPEAKER_02: Now, if your house is just perfectly and decently in order, praise the Lord.
SPEAKER_02: But if it's a museum where the kids can't touch anything, don't touch it.
SPEAKER_02: First Samuel, are you getting adrift?
SPEAKER_02: It ought not be the wife saying to the husband.
SPEAKER_02: If you don't love me better, I'm leaving.
SPEAKER_02: I can find better than you.
SPEAKER_01: What is that?
SPEAKER_02: It'd be like me standing up here and saying now, church.
SPEAKER_02: Like Lending, church.
SPEAKER_02: Listen, uh, you're gonna have to get it together.
SPEAKER_02: You're not, you're not really working as hard as, and I want you to know I've had some other offers.
SPEAKER_02: I want you to know I could go to a much bigger church than this.
SPEAKER_01: All right, I'm lying, all right.
SPEAKER_01: I confess, Mike!
SPEAKER_02: You say, do pastors do that?
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: It's oppressive, it's ridiculous, it's immature.
SPEAKER_02: It's because they feel insecure and threatened.
SPEAKER_02: Oh no, they don't, they're strong.
SPEAKER_02: Amen.
SPEAKER_02: That's because they feel threatened.
SPEAKER_02: Look at 1 Samuel 19.
SPEAKER_02: We'll get there in a minute.
SPEAKER_02: 1 Samuel 19.
SPEAKER_02: Notice the trend here.
SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know what?
SPEAKER_02: I think we back up just now.
SPEAKER_02: Let's do 1 Samuel 19.
SPEAKER_02: Now, this is where David is a threat to Saul.
SPEAKER_02: And notice uh Saul, Daddy, Saul, comes to daughter, my cow.
SPEAKER_02: My cow has just helped David to escape.
SPEAKER_02: And uh, look if you would at verse 15.
SPEAKER_02: And Saul sent the messengers again to see David, saying, Bring him up to me in the bed that I may slay him.
SPEAKER_02: When the messenger were come in, behold, there was an image in the bed, the pill of goat's hair for his bolster.
SPEAKER_02: And Saul said unto Michael, Why hast thou deceived me so?
SPEAKER_02: And sent away my enemy, that he is escaped.
SPEAKER_02: You know what Saul's doing?
SPEAKER_02: He's lobbying.
SPEAKER_02: He's telling his daughter, and he's trying to, please look up here, he's trying to make his daughter feel guilty.
SPEAKER_02: Why'd you do that?
SPEAKER_02: Well, his wife and husband, and she knew that daddy was going to kill him, so she helped him get away.
SPEAKER_02: Saul's manner of leadership was somewhat oppressive, and it was consistently oppressive.
SPEAKER_02: Look, if you would at 1 Samuel 20.
SPEAKER_02: Stay with me.
SPEAKER_02: 1 Samuel 20.
SPEAKER_02: And look at verse 30.
SPEAKER_02: 1 Samuel 20, 30.
SPEAKER_02: Then Saul's anger was kindled against who?
SPEAKER_02: Talk to me.
SPEAKER_02: Jonathan.
SPEAKER_02: And he said unto him, Thou son of a perverse, rebellion woman, had a real good relationship with his wife, too.
SPEAKER_02: Amen.
SPEAKER_02: Do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own what?
SPEAKER_02: Jonathan, you're confused.
SPEAKER_02: Jonathan wasn't confused.
SPEAKER_02: He saw real leadership in David.
SPEAKER_02: And unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness, for as long as the son Jesse liveth upon the ground, thou shalt not be established, nor the kingdom.
SPEAKER_02: Wherefore now send and fetch him unto me, for he shall surely die.
SPEAKER_02: Don't miss this next statement, verse 32.
SPEAKER_02: And Jonathan answered Saul his father, and said unto him, Wherefore shall he be slain?
SPEAKER_02: What hath he done?
SPEAKER_02: To this style of leadership, Jonathan just committed the unpardonable sin.
SPEAKER_02: He questioned him.
SPEAKER_02: With a good question.
SPEAKER_02: Why do you feel that way?
SPEAKER_02: What has he done?
SPEAKER_02: Now, an immature leader that follows this oppressive style of leadership is going to do just what Saul did.
SPEAKER_03: You have no right to question me.
SPEAKER_03: I'm your authority.
SPEAKER_04: Woman?
SPEAKER_04: I'm the man and you're not, and God's giving me direction.
SPEAKER_04: Don't ever question me again!
SPEAKER_02: You dummy.
SPEAKER_02: Take that 16, 17-year-old son or daughter.
SPEAKER_02: I don't care, you don't ever question me.
SPEAKER_02: You understand?
SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's dumb.
SPEAKER_02: If that's what the taste in their mouth is about independent Baptists, they won't be long gone.
unknown: Yeah, come on.
SPEAKER_02: Saul cast a javelin at him to smite him.
SPEAKER_02: That was his answer.
SPEAKER_02: That was Saul's answer to a good question.
SPEAKER_02: Please look up here.
SPEAKER_02: You know what Saul's answer was?
SPEAKER_02: You question me?
SPEAKER_04: You question me?
SPEAKER_04: Get out!
SPEAKER_02: Amen.
SPEAKER_02: What kind of answer is that?
SPEAKER_02: Would have been better for him to say, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02: I'm a little messed up right now.
SPEAKER_02: A little bit of a carnal type of leader right now.
SPEAKER_02: And you're right.
SPEAKER_02: But you know what that takes?
SPEAKER_02: That takes manliness.
SPEAKER_02: That takes some strength to be able to say that.
SPEAKER_02: You know what this style of leadership gets off on?
SPEAKER_02: It's almost like this is what's taught.
SPEAKER_02: Don't ever show weakness lest somebody challenge you.
SPEAKER_01: Hey, you know what?
SPEAKER_01: We're all weak.
SPEAKER_02: We all make mistakes.
SPEAKER_02: We all make poor judgment cause.
SPEAKER_02: But this idea that as a man with a wife, you never show weakness.
SPEAKER_02: How about show genuineness?
SPEAKER_02: Oh, it doesn't stop here.
SPEAKER_02: Look at 1 Samuel 22.
SPEAKER_02: Are we okay tonight?
SPEAKER_02: We're contrasting some styles of leadership for our own church, our own ministries, our own marriages, our own businesses.
SPEAKER_02: I'm not attacking some group or some other church or some ministry somewhere else.
SPEAKER_02: That's not what I'm pertaining to tonight.
SPEAKER_02: How somebody else runs their church, how somebody else runs their organization is not any of my business.
SPEAKER_02: That's between them and God.
SPEAKER_02: Verse 7.
SPEAKER_02: Then Saul said unto his servants that stood about him, Hear now, ye Benjamites.
SPEAKER_02: Watch it.
SPEAKER_02: Will the son of Jesse give every one of you fields and vineyards?
SPEAKER_02: And make you all captains of thousands, captains of hundreds.
SPEAKER_02: That all of you have conspired against me.
SPEAKER_02: He's talking to the Benjamites here.
SPEAKER_02: He's trying to make them feel guilty.
SPEAKER_02: And there is none that showeth me that my son hath made a league with the son of Jesse.
SPEAKER_02: And there is none of you that is sorry for me.
SPEAKER_02: Or showeth unto me that my son has stirred up my servant against me to lie in wait, as at this day.
SPEAKER_02: He says, Don't you care about me?
SPEAKER_02: Amen?
SPEAKER_02: You know what he is?
SPEAKER_02: He's a deceiver.
unknown: That's right.
SPEAKER_02: He's playing a role here.
SPEAKER_02: Then answered Doag the Edomite, which was set over the servants of Saul, and said, I saw the son of Jesse come to Na to Abimelech the son of Ahitub.
SPEAKER_02: It goes on to die.
SPEAKER_02: You know what David, you know what Saul says to Doag to do?
SPEAKER_02: Go and kill the whole city.
SPEAKER_02: They get over there in verse 14, look at it.
SPEAKER_02: And Ahimelech answered the king and said, Who is so faithful among all the servants of David?
SPEAKER_02: Which is the king's son law, and go at thy bidding is honorable in thy house.
SPEAKER_02: He tries to answer for what he did and said, I didn't know.
SPEAKER_02: And the king said, verse 16, look at this strength.
SPEAKER_02: And the king says, Thou shalt surely die, Ahimelech, thou and all thy father's house.
SPEAKER_02: And the king said unto the footmen that stood about him, Turn and slay the priest of the Lord.
SPEAKER_02: Because their hand is also with David, and because they knew when he fled and did not show it to me.
SPEAKER_02: Uh-oh.
SPEAKER_02: But the servants of the king would not put forth their hand to fall upon the priest of the Lord.
SPEAKER_02: You know what you see in example is there's poor leadership.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, old Doag takes care of them and kills all the city of Nob, but you see poor, oppressive leadership going on there.
SPEAKER_02: Isn't anybody sorry for me?
SPEAKER_02: Is anybody on my side?
SPEAKER_02: Hey, uh, let me tell you the latest thing going on.
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna give you a little dirty laundry.
SPEAKER_02: Is that okay?
SPEAKER_02: The reason I'm giving you dirty laundry, and I've kind of prayed about this, is I don't want you ever to get caught up in the dirty clothes line.
unknown: Yeah, come on.
SPEAKER_02: Okay?
SPEAKER_02: Is that fair?
SPEAKER_02: Let me say it again.
SPEAKER_02: The reason I'm gonna give you a little dirty laundry is I never want you to run into the dirty clothes line.
SPEAKER_02: Um, there's on the computer, from my understanding, quite an internet system that goes on among pastors.
SPEAKER_02: And there's this group, internet, and that group, internet, and this group, internet, and this group that doesn't claim to be a group, internet that is a group.
SPEAKER_02: Can we talk?
SPEAKER_02: And you know what they do on the internet?
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, they pass back and forth theology, but it also becomes a garbage sheet.
SPEAKER_02: A gossip sheet.
SPEAKER_02: Uh well, we're standing against this, and they just jump on that thing and and type back and forth.
SPEAKER_04: Where do you stand?
SPEAKER_02: I'm not against the internet.
SPEAKER_02: But God help us when we have leaders that start jumping on that thing, and all they're doing is, well, we're starting for the faith.
SPEAKER_01: Go home, ring some people to call us, build your church! Now, if there's something on there that's good that can be brought in and it's good, solid material, I've got no problem with that.
SPEAKER_01: But when it becomes a rag sheet, a gossip sheet, this guy against that guy, and it stirs up confusion.
SPEAKER_01: Shut up!
SPEAKER_02: Because I don't want, if you're on the internet and you're listening to that stuff, I don't want it coming into this church.
SPEAKER_02: It's not coming in through me.
SPEAKER_02: I don't even know how to use a computer.
SPEAKER_02: And I've heard no, listen, you say, well, you don't know what's going on, preacher.
SPEAKER_02: You just got your head buried in the sand.
SPEAKER_01: I know more than you think I know, but I've never brought it into the church.
SPEAKER_01: I'm not about to.
SPEAKER_01: Oh, it brings about confusion and division and the world is shisms.
SPEAKER_02: So if you jump on there, don't bring that pornography into this church.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, kick you out! No, we won't.
SPEAKER_02: We won't kick you out.
SPEAKER_02: We'd rather you stay and get right.
SPEAKER_02: Look at the word of 1 Samuel 23.
SPEAKER_02: Are we okay tonight?
SPEAKER_02: And say, oh man, this just really irks me.
SPEAKER_02: I'm just talking about leadership.
SPEAKER_02: The right kind of leadership.
SPEAKER_02: Now, you may say, now wait a minute, preacher, let me ask you a question.
SPEAKER_02: In our school, do we give out demerits?
SPEAKER_02: Yes, we do.
SPEAKER_02: Well, would you correct something in the church if you knew that it needed correcting?
SPEAKER_02: Yes, we would.
SPEAKER_02: And we have.
SPEAKER_02: But we don't broadcast it all the time.
SPEAKER_02: I'm not going to have so-and-so stand up and say, I like so-and-so to stand up, and I just want the whole church to know that we took care of a situation considering this person, and uh, so uh it's all taken care of and pray for that person.
SPEAKER_02: What is that?
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: Are we okay?
SPEAKER_02: We're just sitting in attitude here tonight as we grow.
SPEAKER_02: 1 Samuel 23, look at it.
SPEAKER_02: Notice that David, I mean Saul again.
SPEAKER_02: Verse uh seven.
SPEAKER_02: It was told Saul, verse 7, that David was come to Keilah.
SPEAKER_02: It's interesting.
SPEAKER_02: David had just helped this whole city fight against the Philistines, and now it said he'd come to Keilah.
SPEAKER_02: And Saul said, God hath delivered him into my hand.
SPEAKER_02: For he is shut in by entering into a town that hath gates and bars.
SPEAKER_02: And Saul called all the people together to war to go down to Kela and to besiege David and his men.
SPEAKER_02: And David knew that Saul secretly practiced what?
SPEAKER_02: Mischief against him.
SPEAKER_02: You see, he's trying to track him down and gather people along the way.
SPEAKER_02: Look at verse 19.
SPEAKER_02: Then came up to the Ziphites to Saul to Gibeah, saying, Doth not David hide himself with us in the strongholds in the woods, in the hill of the Hillkaiah.
SPEAKER_02: And now therefore, O king, come down according to all the desire of thy soul to come down, and our part shall be to deliver him in the king's hand.
SPEAKER_02: And Saul said, He's talking to the Zipites here, Blessed be ye of the Lord, for you have compassion on me.
SPEAKER_02: Go, I pray you prepare yet, and know, and see his place where his haunt is, and who hath seen him there?
SPEAKER_02: For it is told me that he dealeth very what?
SPEAKER_02: Boy, he's painting a picture of David here, isn't he?
SPEAKER_02: It's a false picture.
SPEAKER_02: He's painting David to be an enemy when he's not an enemy.
SPEAKER_01: It would be like me standing up here and start naming names and start naming men and start saying all manners of things about him, and you don't know if I'm painting a picture that's true or not.
SPEAKER_02: Somebody say something about me on the internet.
SPEAKER_02: I want you all to know who's not in our camp.
SPEAKER_02: And when you see any of those followers, I want you to junk.
SPEAKER_02: And said, Brother Fisher, you know that message you preached the other night?
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, so-and-so was upset with that.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, really?
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yes.
SPEAKER_02: Well, I said, then wouldn't it be good for you to tell so-and-so to come and see me?
SPEAKER_02: Because if so-and-so is really upset with me, then he'll come and see me.
SPEAKER_02: Otherwise, it's none of your business.
SPEAKER_02: Don't you want to know what he said?
unknown: Come on, preacher.
SPEAKER_02: No.
SPEAKER_02: In fact, it was interesting, he complimented me on the message.
SPEAKER_02: God says this on one side.
SPEAKER_02: And we all do that a little bit, don't we?
SPEAKER_02: You say, well, what happened?
SPEAKER_02: Did you mark so-and-so?
SPEAKER_02: No.
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely not.
SPEAKER_02: I preached for him again the next year, and the next year, and the next year.
SPEAKER_02: Do you know what so-and-so said about you in the church?
SPEAKER_02: I wish it were just so.
SPEAKER_02: I I I heard this and and I want you to leave it alone.
SPEAKER_04: Even the best of friends don't get along sometimes.
SPEAKER_04: Leave it alone.
SPEAKER_04: Let them get right with each other.
SPEAKER_02: Did you know that Russ Prock and Chris Sturger had an out?
SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02: I saw them on the parking lot.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, Chris was shaking his finger.
SPEAKER_04: But what was Ross doing?
SPEAKER_02: And by the way, as far as I know, they didn't.
SPEAKER_02: But what if they did?
SPEAKER_02: You can't work in a stressful situation like they work in and not have a few words once in a while.
SPEAKER_02: But you can see them get to get on the leg and get on the leaves and put them and get away.
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna happen in a church like ours.
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna happen with teenagers against a teenager! They'll work it out!
SPEAKER_02: Some wife against another wife.
SPEAKER_02: They'll work it out.
SPEAKER_02: Maybe.
SPEAKER_02: Just kidding.
SPEAKER_02: You say, well, what happens when that happens?
SPEAKER_02: We go on.
SPEAKER_02: You say, well, I just can't get along with so-and-so.
SPEAKER_02: Then avoid them.
SPEAKER_02: It's not like there's just seven people here tonight.
SPEAKER_02: If there were ten people in our church, I could I could understand.
SPEAKER_02: Well, I just can't avoid them.
SPEAKER_02: You know, I can you know, there's only ten of us.
SPEAKER_02: That's one of the problems with a little bit less numbered church.
SPEAKER_02: But, you know, in our church, you don't even have to park next to them.
SPEAKER_02: We've even got multiple restrooms now.
SPEAKER_02: And two people that are called to serve in this church, that are called to serve in this church, that don't get along, we don't have to have a big feud.
SPEAKER_02: Amen?
SPEAKER_02: Is this okay tonight?
SPEAKER_02: So he was lobbying with the Ziphites.
SPEAKER_02: Blessed be you.
SPEAKER_02: It'd be like it'd be like somebody saying, Oh, you heard.
SPEAKER_02: So and so is against me.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, thank you for coming to my aid.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, oh, you just don't know.
SPEAKER_02: I thought everybody was against me.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, you just, I'm just glad somebody understands the truth.
SPEAKER_01: What's that?
SPEAKER_02: Now we all do it, and I've done it probably before, too.
SPEAKER_02: But we all need to be slapped in the face once in a while and say, knock it off.
SPEAKER_02: Slapped in the face, that's not a good word.
SPEAKER_02: Taken to the woodshed.
SPEAKER_02: Chastised of the Lord.
SPEAKER_02: Amen?
SPEAKER_02: Because it doesn't do any good to promote camaraderie.
SPEAKER_02: One accord.
SPEAKER_02: I I just need to ask, am I getting the message across?
SPEAKER_02: Because you're kind of quiet, and I, you know, I could close up shop and go to that other church that's asked me to come.
SPEAKER_02: By faith, I know they're gonna ask me.
SPEAKER_02: Hey, uh, I need to show you something.
SPEAKER_02: Look where this thing was so started, and it goes on and on and on.
SPEAKER_02: But uh look look where this thing was so started.
SPEAKER_02: Uh go back and uh look if you would at 1 Samuel, where you're at, and I thought I had it in the right place.
SPEAKER_02: There it is.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02: No, I don't want that one.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I'm so embarrassed.
SPEAKER_02: Here I was doing so well in the message, and now I don't have what I wanted.
SPEAKER_02: You remember when he got anointed king and they went to the first battle?
SPEAKER_02: And he took some oxen and he hewed them up.
SPEAKER_02: And he sent them out to the people.
SPEAKER_02: Remember that?
SPEAKER_02: Somebody find me that for me real quick.
SPEAKER_02: I had it marked, but now I don't have it marked anymore.
SPEAKER_02: I want you to see it so I can bring out a point.
SPEAKER_02: Chapter 9, thank you.
SPEAKER_02: There it is, good.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I had it marked in chapter 10.
SPEAKER_02: Chapter 9, that's what I want.
SPEAKER_02: Just right.
SPEAKER_02: Hope you're right, because I still don't see it, but I know it's in there.
SPEAKER_02: That's not it.
SPEAKER_02: 1 Samuel 9 is not what I want.
SPEAKER_02: 7, 7, thank you.
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, 7.
SPEAKER_02: Eleven, turn to eleven.
SPEAKER_02: Come on, somebody get it for me.
SPEAKER_02: What is it?
SPEAKER_02: Eleven seven, thank you.
SPEAKER_02: Well, they went to make sure they get fixed.
SPEAKER_02: Make make sure that gets fixed before the next Adventist.
SPEAKER_02: Now you're making me insecure.
SPEAKER_02: Look at 1 Samuel 11.
SPEAKER_02: Let me get my dignity back.
SPEAKER_02: I am the pastor, you know, of a well-known church across this nation.
SPEAKER_02: Our influence is worldwide now.
SPEAKER_02: Verse 7.
SPEAKER_02: Look what he says here.
SPEAKER_02: And he took a yoke of oxen and hewed them in pieces.
SPEAKER_02: And sent them through all over the coast of Israel by the hands of messengers saying, Whosoever cometh not forth after Saul and after Samuel, so shall it be done unto his oxen.
SPEAKER_02: Now it says, and the fear of the Lord fell on the people and they came out with one consent.
SPEAKER_02: I've got no problem with that up to that point in time.
SPEAKER_02: But the problem was when the fear of the Lord stopped falling, he tried to manipulate the people in the same way.
SPEAKER_02: When a leader stops walking and abiding with God, the fear of the Lord stops falling.
SPEAKER_02: But sometimes a leader will try to manipulate things the same way, but the problem is the fear of the Lord isn't there.
SPEAKER_02: Let me make a statement.
SPEAKER_02: I'm not really concerned with what you think about me as far as my status.
SPEAKER_02: And I'm not really that concerned with, you know, when the guy comes in and says, Oh yeah, your pastor's well known, and he's I kind of cringe a little bit.
SPEAKER_02: I just kind of sit there and say, move on quickly with this stuff.
SPEAKER_02: Let's get to the message.
SPEAKER_02: I mean that.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, you know, Brother Fisher, you know, you just don't know what kind of influence he's been, and then, you know, and then they say in the nation.
SPEAKER_02: I go, right.
SPEAKER_02: And maybe they mean it.
SPEAKER_02: But I just think, move on, move on, move on.
SPEAKER_02: Don't blow it.
SPEAKER_02: Just move on.
SPEAKER_02: That's not how, you know, God's power doesn't come with, oh, he's right.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, he's right.
SPEAKER_02: I was invited about three months ago to have uh dinner with uh a couple of big name preachers and good guys and everything.
SPEAKER_02: And uh I had an appointment with my wife that night, and uh I decided that having dinner with my wife was more important than having dinner with the preachers.
SPEAKER_02: You see, I gotta live with her.
SPEAKER_02: And I didn't even tell her.
SPEAKER_02: Because I know if I would have told her, hey, you know, so and so has invited me and they're having this and they want to fly me up and all this.
SPEAKER_02: I know if I would have told her, she said, Oh, you need to go to that.
SPEAKER_02: You really need to go to that.
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to go to that.
SPEAKER_02: No, you need to go to that.
SPEAKER_02: That's that'd be great for you.
SPEAKER_02: And uh, I just didn't want her to feel like she was second class.
SPEAKER_02: We had a great time together.
SPEAKER_02: I think I enjoyed her fellowship as much, if not more.
SPEAKER_02: What happened though, after Saul did this thing of hewing the oxen and the fear of the Lord fell on, he continued to use some tactics tactics to try to keep the people under.
SPEAKER_02: Now, if you're not careful, we fall into this pattern.
SPEAKER_02: If you don't do it this way, and you don't consistently do it this way, then I want you to know something.
SPEAKER_04: You're not right with God You're not bringing somebody to church, getting them baptized every Sunday?
SPEAKER_03: You're not right with God Am I against soul winning?
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely not.
SPEAKER_02: Am I against baptism?
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely not.
SPEAKER_02: Am I against oppression?
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02: Am I against threats?
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02: All right.
SPEAKER_02: Did Brother Miracle bring anybody and get them baptized?
SPEAKER_02: Or the wade?
SPEAKER_02: Where's yours?
SPEAKER_04: A shaver?
SPEAKER_02: Or is yours?
SPEAKER_02: Why wasn't there somebody down there on that baptismal tank?
SPEAKER_02: You know what we're talking about here is performance.
SPEAKER_04: You better perform because I say to Jordan?
SPEAKER_04: Where's yours?
SPEAKER_04: I don't care if you're out of town, where's yours?
SPEAKER_02: Well, Pastor, uh, where's yours?
SPEAKER_04: Don't question my authority! I was moving getting the word of God on the mountain of God.
SPEAKER_02: Careful.
SPEAKER_02: You say, why are you saying that?
SPEAKER_02: Because, like the Pharisees, they laid heavy burdens on the people, but wouldn't so much as lift their own finger.
SPEAKER_02: Do we preach and teach soul winning?
SPEAKER_02: You know we do, but not oppressively so.
SPEAKER_02: Hello?
SPEAKER_02: It's not a quota system.
SPEAKER_02: We'd rather see God work and it's not a quota system.
SPEAKER_02: You say, are you against another church and what they're doing?
SPEAKER_02: No.
SPEAKER_02: I'm talking about our church right now and what we're doing.
SPEAKER_02: Preacher, you're destroying everything I've taught.
SPEAKER_02: Well, having taught it.
SPEAKER_02: You know what, brethren?
SPEAKER_02: There's a free will love that goes on with serving God.
SPEAKER_02: And it gets to the place where it's fun and it's enjoyable and it's pleasant, and we want to do it, and we desire to do it.
SPEAKER_01: It's not because some man has put some repressive things on us that we have to do it.
SPEAKER_01: You know what happens with that?
SPEAKER_01: Performance, performance, performance, oppression, oppression, oppression.
SPEAKER_01: The love of God goes out, the abandoning of God goes out, oppression, oppression, performance, performance, and sooner or later that person is just gone.
SPEAKER_02: They were empty a long time ago.
SPEAKER_02: But they kept performing and performing and performing to keep their status up.
SPEAKER_02: And everybody lifted them up so high, but inside they knew they were empty.
SPEAKER_02: The fear of man bringeth a snare.
SPEAKER_02: Do we want to perform?
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02: But, brethren, we ought to do it out of love.
SPEAKER_02: And desire to want to do it.
SPEAKER_02: You say, Brother Fisher, do you ever preach outside of just love and desire?
SPEAKER_02: I mean, isn't there a time when you preach where you don't want to do it and you don't desire to do it, you don't love to do it?
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, in that time it's called duty.
SPEAKER_02: And there's nothing wrong with duty, but I'm going to tell you something.
SPEAKER_02: I couldn't preach 52 times a year on duty.
SPEAKER_02: I couldn't preach for 10 years on duty.
SPEAKER_02: There's got to be love and desire and something inside that burns that wants to do it.
SPEAKER_02: I may do it for a few weeks out of duty, but it can't be sustained that way.
SPEAKER_02: You know what?
SPEAKER_02: Ladies, ladies, men, husbands, wives, we ought to not be setting up these this type of atmosphere in our homes.
SPEAKER_02: I mean, homes should be enjoyable.
SPEAKER_02: And I'm not saying, you know, I got the joy, joy, joy in my heart at 6 o'clock in the morning when the baby's all sick and everything.
SPEAKER_02: I know there's times when things are a little bit rough and everything like that.
SPEAKER_02: But it but it there's got to be some fun in there, and there's got to be some pleasantry in there, and there's got to be some laughter in there.
SPEAKER_02: And it can't just be all this type of oppressive, repressive leverage and threatenings and intimidations.
SPEAKER_02: Shouldn't be that way in a business or in a home or in our church.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's times we have to deal with things.
SPEAKER_02: But it ought to not be done like a Pharisee would do it, or a Rayoboam wanted to put this heavy burden, or Athaliah when threatened, got rid of some people, or the Pharisees, or whoever else we mentioned tonight.
SPEAKER_02: Please look up here.
SPEAKER_02: You tell me this.
SPEAKER_02: How did Jesus lead?
SPEAKER_02: Look at Matthew 23, where we were at.
SPEAKER_02: Matthew 23.
SPEAKER_02: Right in the middle of Matthew 23, where he's rebuking them, he says about leadership.
SPEAKER_02: And you know, but I just want to emphasize it again tonight.
SPEAKER_02: And I hope I don't lose anybody off this message.
SPEAKER_02: I hope you don't go away and say, man, the pastor here at this church is a wimp.
SPEAKER_02: Compared to what?
SPEAKER_02: Or compare to what so-and-so says.
SPEAKER_02: Well, then look in your Bible and make sure so-and-so is right.
SPEAKER_02: Amen.
SPEAKER_02: Matthew 23.
SPEAKER_02: He rebukes them about binding heavy burdens grievous to be born.
SPEAKER_02: He rebukes them in verse 13 about you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men.
SPEAKER_02: You're not going in, and the men aren't going in either.
SPEAKER_02: He says in verse 14, you're you're you're for pretense, you're making a long prayer.
SPEAKER_02: He rebukes them all the way through.
SPEAKER_02: But look what he says in verse 11.
SPEAKER_02: But he that is greatest among you shall be your what?
SPEAKER_02: Servant.
SPEAKER_02: Right in the middle of his rebuke, he tells his apostles, hey guys, we're not doing it the way the Pharisees are.
SPEAKER_02: Verse 12 Whosoever exalt himself shall be abased.
SPEAKER_02: And he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
SPEAKER_02: You look at the Lord's leadership style, and it was a style of servitude.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, he did the miracles.
SPEAKER_02: Look at Moses' leadership style.
SPEAKER_02: A servitude.
SPEAKER_02: Look at David's leadership style.
SPEAKER_02: Servitude.
SPEAKER_02: Look at Paul's leadership style.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, Paul rebuked Peter.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, there was rebuke that's necessary from time to time.
SPEAKER_02: But it wasn't oppression.
SPEAKER_02: I hope you're getting the message tonight that we ought to not lead by oppression.
SPEAKER_02: We ought to not lead by breathing out threatenings.
SPEAKER_02: We ought to not lead by intimidation.
SPEAKER_02: Now, you say, now, wait a minute.
SPEAKER_02: What about your children?
SPEAKER_02: I think Brother Rushing covered it very well on that Saturday, that after the ages of 12, 13, 14, hopefully those children are already under, and now you can become just a real good friend, lead them by influence.
SPEAKER_02: I leave you this illustration.
SPEAKER_02: I want you to listen.
SPEAKER_02: And I probably have used this somewhere along the trail.
SPEAKER_02: But I think it illustrates what I'm trying to get across tonight.
SPEAKER_02: And the reason for this message tonight is this our church has grown a little bit, and I don't know from whence everybody comes or what influence has been on their life.
SPEAKER_02: I don't know who you've been listening to.
SPEAKER_02: And by the way, at our church, uh, I don't know of any preacher that we would say, oh, don't listen to him.
SPEAKER_02: We say, go ahead, listen to him, it's fine.
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't bother us.
SPEAKER_02: Just make sure that you bounce what he says off the book.
SPEAKER_02: And where the two don't line up, keep the book and throw the preaching out.
SPEAKER_02: I'm not threatened by anybody.
SPEAKER_02: A tourist went to Israel, and it's a true story.
SPEAKER_02: And when they got to Israel, they saw a sight that was unusual to them.
SPEAKER_02: This tourist was from England.
SPEAKER_02: And they looked out across the field.
SPEAKER_02: One day, and they asked the tour guide, and they said, What is that out there?
SPEAKER_02: And the tour guide said, Well, it's uh it's a shepherd with his sheep.
SPEAKER_02: And he said to the tour guide, he said, That's that's so interesting.
SPEAKER_02: He said, You'd never see that in England.
SPEAKER_02: And the tour guide basically asked him and said, What's interesting?
SPEAKER_02: It's just a shepherd and his sheep.
SPEAKER_02: He said, What's interesting is this.
SPEAKER_02: In England, the shepherd goes behind the sheep and drives the sheep, and drives them.
SPEAKER_02: The shepherd always walks behind the sheep and drives them forward.
SPEAKER_02: He said, What that shepherd is doing is he's in front of his flock, and the flock is following him as he's walking across the field.
SPEAKER_02: Two different styles of leadership.
SPEAKER_02: In Israel, the shepherd walks in front of the flock, and you know what the flock do?
SPEAKER_02: They follow.
SPEAKER_02: In England, the method of sheep is to drive them.
SPEAKER_02: You study the leadership style of Saul, of Ahab, of Pharaoh, Athaliah, the Pharisees, please look up here.
SPEAKER_02: They drive the people that are following them.
SPEAKER_02: They drive them and drive them and drive them and drive them.
SPEAKER_02: You look at Jesus' leadership style, Moses, David, and I believe Paul, and you'll see them out in front leading the sheep.
SPEAKER_02: Now, please look up here, husband.
SPEAKER_02: What kind of leader are you?
SPEAKER_02: Oh, preacher, you know, I understand.
SPEAKER_02: You lead them, you lead them, and you lead him, and you lead him, you lead him, and I understand sometime, sir, brother, we have to go around the back and drive them a little bit.
SPEAKER_02: But that ought to be the exception, not the rule.
SPEAKER_02: As soon as we get them going again, let's get back out in front to our place and our position and giving them an example.
SPEAKER_02: Jesus said, My sheep hear my voice, and what?
SPEAKER_02: Follow me.
SPEAKER_02: As that flock of children get older, I understand you've got to go around back and drive them once in a while.
SPEAKER_02: But it's good to get out in front and lead them.
SPEAKER_02: As ministry leaders, I understand every once in a while you've got to get behind and crack the whip, but for the most part, predominantly, 85-90% of the time, you ought to be in front of that flock.
SPEAKER_02: And they ought to be wanting to follow.
SPEAKER_02: Amen?
SPEAKER_02: In business.
SPEAKER_02: And I've worked in all kinds of styles and I've done things the wrong way, and probably doing a few things the wrong way even right now.
SPEAKER_02: And this is probably to me too.
SPEAKER_02: But in business.
SPEAKER_02: Driving, driving, driving.
SPEAKER_02: I don't know how it was in the military you were in, but in the military I was in, the officer was supposed to be out front leading the run.
SPEAKER_02: What we need tonight is leadership that's God's style and not carnal.
SPEAKER_02: Don't show weakness.
SPEAKER_02: Why not?
SPEAKER_02: God's in charge anyways.
SPEAKER_02: And he's strong.
SPEAKER_02: Don't show that you have any faults.
SPEAKER_02: Well, why not?
SPEAKER_02: Brother Torres?
SPEAKER_02: How long have we known each other?
SPEAKER_02: Don't say too long, don't say too long.
unknown: Ten years.
SPEAKER_02: Ten years.
SPEAKER_02: Uh, have you ever noticed any faults of mine?
SPEAKER_02: He says smugly.
SPEAKER_02: Brother Torres, if I made myself out to be somebody that constantly walked on water and never had any faults, would you follow?
SPEAKER_02: Why?
SPEAKER_02: Because I'd be a fake.
SPEAKER_02: A fake.
SPEAKER_02: And any man with a little character character sees a fake.
SPEAKER_02: Over ten years, you can see a fake.
SPEAKER_02: That man's a fake.
SPEAKER_02: I just want you to know that.
SPEAKER_02: Just kidding.
SPEAKER_02: Just kidding, Mrs.
SPEAKER_02: Torres.
SPEAKER_02: Is that Jessica up there?
SPEAKER_02: Take it easy on me.
SPEAKER_02: You know what people are looking for?
SPEAKER_02: Genuine leadership.
SPEAKER_02: That means blemishes, spots, wrinkles, failures, mistakes, and some success too.
SPEAKER_02: Men, if you've been leading by intimidation, go home and tell your wife I've done wrong.
SPEAKER_02: If the marriage has been held together through threatenings, go home and tell each other you've done wrong.
SPEAKER_02: Every once in a while I have to confess to my children I was too hard on you.
SPEAKER_02: I misjudged the situation.
SPEAKER_02: Forgive me.
SPEAKER_02: It was wrong.
SPEAKER_02: And I have done it, and I hope I don't have to do it much more.
SPEAKER_02: From time to time, as a pastor, I will probably use, please look up here, what you would consider guilt, but it's hard to preach without someone feeling guilty.
SPEAKER_02: It's hard to read your Bible without feeling guilty.
SPEAKER_02: But I'm not trying to use guilt as a continual tool to keep you under.
SPEAKER_02: God is your judge, not me.
SPEAKER_02: Guilt may be used from time to time as we read the Bible about, hey, it's time to get back out and do some soul winning again.
SPEAKER_02: It's time to get a witness out.
SPEAKER_02: But I don't want it to be so oppressive that you walk in and it becomes unpleasant.
SPEAKER_02: I mean, really, brother, you know what?
SPEAKER_02: If I really want to do it this way, I can I can say that you can't get it.
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely rubber with God.
SPEAKER_02: What our attitude in this church is, is we want you to reach a potential.
SPEAKER_02: We want you to grow.
SPEAKER_02: Want you to get back up again when you fall.
SPEAKER_02: We don't want to compare ourselves one with another.
SPEAKER_02: I don't mind a little competition, but if competition is destructive, throw it out.
SPEAKER_02: If competition is productive, keep it in.
SPEAKER_02: And I think ministry leaders have used competition in a good way in our church.
SPEAKER_02: But if it ever becomes destructive or hurtful, or status, or who does the boast this, and who does, and it's a boastful thing, then we want to we need to get competition out.
SPEAKER_02: If it becomes that.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: But not like that.
SPEAKER_02: I'm on them by saying, what can I do to help you?
SPEAKER_02: What can I do to support your ministry?
SPEAKER_02: What are you doing that's taking up your time that you want to do something else with?
SPEAKER_02: Why?
SPEAKER_02: Because I believe every one of them have what's called character.
SPEAKER_02: And they've got a conscience.
SPEAKER_02: And your wife has a conscience.
SPEAKER_02: Your children have consciences.
SPEAKER_02: The workers in your ministry have consciences.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, there's times that we have to deal with things and we do.
SPEAKER_02: Well, please look up here.
SPEAKER_02: Let's not become like the Catholic Church and threaten people.
SPEAKER_02: You're going to spend longer in purgatory.
SPEAKER_03: Don't question our authority.
SPEAKER_02: Ahab surrounded himself with a bunch of yes men called prophets.
SPEAKER_02: And when one showed up and told him that they were about ready to die, they didn't like it.
SPEAKER_02: Tonight.
SPEAKER_02: Let's keep the atmosphere in our church.
SPEAKER_02: Please look up here.
SPEAKER_02: Pleasant.
SPEAKER_02: Come fall.
SPEAKER_02: We're going to push.
SPEAKER_02: Head for our big day.
SPEAKER_02: But I don't want the push to become so repressive that the joy leaves with it.
SPEAKER_02: You know why young people leave the church after a number of years?
SPEAKER_02: You know why young singles leave the church?
SPEAKER_02: You know why young married couples leave the church?
SPEAKER_02: Because there's such sometimes oppression going on.
SPEAKER_02: Why should they want to stay in that?
SPEAKER_02: They can't wait till they're free to go.
SPEAKER_02: I called a young man up tonight who I've noticed been out of our church for a couple weeks, and I said, Hey, listen, how are you doing, man?
SPEAKER_02: What's going on?
SPEAKER_02: He said, Well, I've had some things happen.
SPEAKER_02: I said, really?
SPEAKER_02: I said, uh, well, you want to get together?
SPEAKER_02: And he said, Well, I was kind of afraid to bring it to you.
SPEAKER_02: I said, Well, let's get together.
SPEAKER_02: I said, we might learn something.
SPEAKER_02: We talked for quite a while.
SPEAKER_02: I think he'll at least let me give him a give me a chance to talk with him.
SPEAKER_02: Lest he goes out and finds himself falling away from not only the church, but from his walk with God.
SPEAKER_02: Did you get the message tonight?
SPEAKER_02: Now I know somebody's gonna go away and probably think, well, but I heard him say this.
SPEAKER_02: I heard him say that in the message.
SPEAKER_02: I heard him say this.
SPEAKER_02: You know what, you can't preach 12 years and not contradict yourself sooner or later.
SPEAKER_02: But I'm talking about a general attitude tonight, an atmosphere in our church that needs to be careful of the Rehboam style of leadership, the Pharaoh style, the Herod style, the Athaliah style, the Ahab style, the Pharisee style.
SPEAKER_02: The Saul style.
SPEAKER_02: It needs to be an atmosphere that challenges.
SPEAKER_02: Challenges to do right by standards and challenges to do right in morals.
SPEAKER_02: But, brethren, somewhere along there, there also has to be the word grace and forbearance and patience.
SPEAKER_02: I just leave you with this thought.
SPEAKER_02: When you get impatient with someone else, remember how patient God has been with you.
SPEAKER_02: God has rules and God has standards, but he also has patience and grace.
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I look at myself and say, Whew, man.
SPEAKER_02: God has so much patience and so much grace and forbearance and tolerance with me.
SPEAKER_02: Maybe I ought to practice the same type of patience and forbearance and tolerance with others, like he does with me.
SPEAKER_02: Tonight.
SPEAKER_02: I hope this doesn't blow some of you who have been in our church for a long time out of the water and say, What's happened to the preacher?
SPEAKER_02: Nothing's happened other than I've been studying my Bible.
SPEAKER_02: You sound a little horrible tonight.
SPEAKER_02: We'll come back next week.
SPEAKER_02: I want people to last for a long period of time and not be burnouts.
SPEAKER_02: And want to do it.
SPEAKER_02: And want to keep going for God.
SPEAKER_02: You know what?
SPEAKER_02: I want my wife to want to be married to me.
SPEAKER_02: Can you understand that?
SPEAKER_02: I want Patty Fisher to want to be married to me.
SPEAKER_02: I don't want it to be, I have a cross to bear.
SPEAKER_02: His name's Doug Fisher.
SPEAKER_02: And I can't get out of it.
SPEAKER_02: I said I do, and that's it.
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, how would it look?
SPEAKER_02: And I just got a bear up under this thing, and I gotta be married to him.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, you don't know what goes on behind closed doors, and I just, oh, here he comes.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, oh.
SPEAKER_02: I don't want that.
SPEAKER_02: Now she'll say I'm the best husband in the world, but she's been programmed that way.
SPEAKER_02: But every once in a while I want her to believe that.
SPEAKER_02: Genuinely.
SPEAKER_02: If nothing else, I want her to know that God chose me for her and her for me.
SPEAKER_02: And I want her to be happy with God's decision.
SPEAKER_02: I want my children to be happy with the decision that God chose me to be their father.
SPEAKER_02: I don't want them to say, I can't wait to get away from my dad.
SPEAKER_02: And they will say that sooner or later.
SPEAKER_02: And you might even hear them.
SPEAKER_03: I heard her say that, I heard him say that.
SPEAKER_02: You'll probably hear that sooner or later.
SPEAKER_02: Because I corrected him or something.
SPEAKER_02: I heard him, I heard him say it.
SPEAKER_02: They just can't wait to get him.
SPEAKER_02: You know, out of seven children, sooner or later they're gonna say that.
SPEAKER_02: They're lying, don't believe them.
SPEAKER_02: But it ought to be this exception rather than the rule.
SPEAKER_02: Tonight, would you please look at yourself as a leader and analyze your leadership style so we can have God's power upon our church and God's power upon our ministries, and God's power in our homes, God's power in the businesses that we have, and God's blessing upon our lives.
SPEAKER_02: Let's all stand.
SPEAKER_02: I know this will probably get some mixed reviews, and that's fine.
SPEAKER_02: The whole point of preaching is to stir up our thoughts, our attitudes, our minds.
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes to remember it's the former things, even though we know.
SPEAKER_02: And to consider some areas in our lives that we need to really look at and focus in on to be what we need to be.
SPEAKER_02: Forget about who's here and what they think.
SPEAKER_02: Well, if I go forward, they'll think I'm this or that.
SPEAKER_02: Who cares?
SPEAKER_02: It's more important what God thinks.
SPEAKER_02: And God wants us to, as best as possible, dwell with each other, I think, according to knowledge.
SPEAKER_02: And tonight I'm gonna ask you as a pastor that if you need to, take some time at an old-fashioned altar.
SPEAKER_02: And say, God, make me the leader I need to be, or make me the father I need to be.
SPEAKER_02: I'm talking to bus captains tonight, ministry leaders.
SPEAKER_02: I'm talking to Melton men and women that are going to be working in the prison ministry next week, working together on off nights.
SPEAKER_02: I'm talking about you that'll be working in our school this year, in our Bible Institute.
SPEAKER_02: I'm talking about you that work over at Crawford and you and the homes.
SPEAKER_02: Talking about you that are leaders in business or followers before our God tonight.
SPEAKER_02: Let's analyze ourselves and look at our attitudes, and I'll do the same for myself.
SPEAKER_02: With your heads bowed and your eyes closed.
SPEAKER_02: The altar's open tonight.
SPEAKER_02: Why don't you come and forget about this or that down here and just say, God, if you want me, I'll come.
SPEAKER_02: Maybe you just need to want to get down in your pew where you're at and say, Lord, I need to really look at this thing about my attitude and how I'm coming across.
SPEAKER_02: And don't be hard-hearted.
SPEAKER_02: And don't be cold.
SPEAKER_02: Look at the Bible and see the presentation of the scriptures.
SPEAKER_02: God put all that in there inspired for a reason.
SPEAKER_02: You say, well, so and so teaches this.
SPEAKER_02: Look at the Bible.
SPEAKER_02: That's the main thing.
SPEAKER_02: Well, that's just not my style.
SPEAKER_02: Well, look at the Bible, and if necessary, change your style.
SPEAKER_02: And let's let it conform to what the book says.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I know Jesus went in and cast out the money changers.
SPEAKER_02: I know with authority he cleaned it out.
SPEAKER_02: I understand the concept of church discipline.
SPEAKER_02: I understand chastisement.
SPEAKER_02: I understand all that.
SPEAKER_02: But there needs to be a balance to it.